View Full Version : Let's look at Joe Calzaghe's supposed "greatness"!


$BloodyNate$
05-23-2011, 02:33 AM
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year. (http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings)

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?

JAB5239
05-23-2011, 02:46 AM
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year. (http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings)

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?

Wow, I know there are a few posters whose corn flakes you just pissed into. :lol1:

$BloodyNate$
05-23-2011, 03:02 AM
Wow, I know there are a few posters whose corn flakes you just pissed into. :lol1:

hahaha honestly I know I'm one of the people notorious for arguing with Joe nuthuggers but I honestly didn't think it would be this bad haha. Since he had 20 defenses around the same time Svette Okke did I wanted to see who fought the better competition. I mean I knew Hopkins fought a few unranked people during his 20 defenses but DAMN! Joe fought like 16! haha

I think this brings up the argument, is Joe really even the greatest middleweight of all time? Roy Jones & James Toney both did as much as Calzaghe in ALOT less fights lol So will the winner of Ward-Froch, except they'll unify the whole division in lesser fights once they expose Bute ha.

Rip Chudd
05-23-2011, 03:13 AM
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year. (http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings)

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?
This made me laugh, hard!!

JAB5239
05-23-2011, 04:57 AM
hahaha honestly I know I'm one of the people notorious for arguing with Joe nuthuggers but I honestly didn't think it would be this bad haha. Since he had 20 defenses around the same time Svette Okke did I wanted to see who fought the better competition. I mean I knew Hopkins fought a few unranked people during his 20 defenses but DAMN! Joe fought like 16! haha

I think this brings up the argument, is Joe really even the greatest middleweight of all time? Roy Jones & James Toney both did as much as Calzaghe in ALOT less fights lol So will the winner of Ward-Froch, except they'll unify the whole division in lesser fights once they expose Bute ha.

I think Calzaghe is a good fighter in a h2h sense, but his resume is crap and that holds him back from being among the elites. I wouldn't argue with both Roy and Toney being ranked above him at 168.

crold1
05-23-2011, 06:33 AM
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year. (http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings)

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?

Nate:

The problem with your argument is you're (and you're not the first to use this flawed argument) using annual ratings (i.e. the ratings at the end of each of those years). That's not the same as what dudes were rated when they fought Joe. For instance, he beat Woodhall in 2000 and Woodhall ended the year unrated. Look back at 1999...Woodhall was still top ten at the end of the year. He lost to Joe (in a good fight...you should see it if you have not) and subsequently hung them up. Then he fell out of the ratings.

While not a particularly strong win, Manfredo was rated 10th by Ring entering the Calzaghe fight.

Bika may or may not have been rated for instance by Ring at the time, but he was coming off a strong look against Beyer and has been a perennial contender for years now.

The Surgeon
05-23-2011, 06:48 AM
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year. (http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings)

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?

Im lovin this post Nate, i hate Joe but i never realised it was quite as pathetic as this! He slaps, he windmills and he seems to think that squeaking by a 40 odd year old Hopkins (i thought he lost) and beating a shell of what was once Roy Jones makes him a Great fighter, they both dropped his ass too, even Old dead Roy! Lacy? Who!?? BUM!Eubank was a good win even at that stage of his career but nothing special by then, Kessler is very good but basic and he gave Zag some problems while fighting with an injured hand from the first bell and has since beeen whooped by Ward

Joe was and is a punk biitch

New England
05-23-2011, 07:20 AM
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year. (http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings)

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?



AT SMW (a division laregly void of names, and almost completely void of career fighters at the weight,)
yes, he's one of the best to ever lace them up at SMW


for calzaghe i place a good deal of emphasis on the tape i've seen of the performances he has givenl, as opposed to placing the most weight on the names on his ledger. he was a hell of a fighter who knew how to win with the tools god gave him.

he SMASHED jeff lacy
absolutely crushed him. essentially ended his career over 12 rounds. lacy was being billed by showtime as the next tyson, and he was knocking everybody out brutally (stopped vanderpool, robin ried, pemberton, other regular names at the top of the division at the time)
lacy pissed blood after that fight
and his face never looked the same

he finally got roy in the ring and smashed him. you cant flag calzaghe for roy being shot, or for roy not taking the fight until he was shot.
got bernard in the ring and beat him (pretty convincingly in my eyes. close calzaghe decision,)
and since then bernard has proven he's got plenty in the tank



if joe calzaghe had the opportunity to fight the big names earlier in his career he would have. maybe he'd lose, maybe he'd win
but he's one of the most confident men i've ever come across in boxing and certainly never "ducked" anybody simply on the merits of their talents or superiority
so we cant flag him for that
talk to his promotor and his team for not getting him big fights until late in hi career


joe's not the first MW/SMW to labor overseas without much competition until the end of his career
they build these guys into domestic draws and hope to get a shot at a big fight in the states
or they keep up with a good thing and keep them at home and risk little by matching them soft and often


unlike ottke, abraham, even dzinsziruk, etc
calzaghe could ****ing fight and was a world beater

ottke stayed home because he sucked and needed corrupt refs and judges
abraham was ballsy enough to leave but got crushed once he hit world level talent

joe stepped up in the states (or against american fighters with great reputations) and won



in a division largely void of great career fighters
yes, joe calzaghe is among the best to ever fight at the weight.
and a hall of famer



solid bit of digging though on calzaghe's resume
will green k that when i get the opportunity

$BloodyNate$
05-23-2011, 07:35 AM
Nate:

The problem with your argument is you're (and you're not the first to use this flawed argument) using annual ratings (i.e. the ratings at the end of each of those years). That's not the same as what dudes were rated when they fought Joe. For instance, he beat Woodhall in 2000 and Woodhall ended the year unrated. Look back at 1999...Woodhall was still top ten at the end of the year. He lost to Joe (in a good fight...you should see it if you have not) and subsequently hung them up. Then he fell out of the ratings.

While not a particularly strong win, Manfredo was rated 10th by Ring entering the Calzaghe fight.

Bika may or may not have been rated for instance by Ring at the time, but he was coming off a strong look against Beyer and has been a perennial contender for years now.

Wrong, the only person that helps is Woodhall. Everybody else was still unranked. If you count him thats still only 6 ranked fighters. Out of 21...seriously?

crold1
05-23-2011, 07:52 AM
Wrong, the only person that helps is Woodhall. Everybody else was still unranked. If you count him thats still only 6 ranked fighters. Out of 21...seriously?

Helps? Not what I was getting at. As a raw # of rated fighters, looking at one month of 12 misses ratings going into fights (like Manfredo). His # will still be meh, but you have to go through every month of ratings to get the right one. What you have ain't it.

IMDAZED
05-23-2011, 09:18 AM
Calzaghe will probably go to the Hall of Fame but anyone touting him as some top 100 fighter or something probably isn't very bright.

Ziggy Stardust
05-23-2011, 09:37 AM
Calzaghe will probably go to the Hall of Fame but anyone touting him as some top 100 fighter or something probably isn't very bright.

Of course that would make someone touting Calslapzhe as the all-time p4p GOAT REALLY someone "special" :chuckle9:

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
05-23-2011, 09:38 AM
BTW good job Nate!

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
05-23-2011, 09:42 AM
AT SMW (a division laregly void of names, and almost completely void of career fighters at the weight,)
yes, he's one of the best to ever lace them up at SMW


for calzaghe i place a good deal of emphasis on the tape i've seen of the performances he has givenl, as opposed to placing the most weight on the names on his ledger. he was a hell of a fighter who knew how to win with the tools god gave him.

he SMASHED jeff lacy
absolutely crushed him. essentially ended his career over 12 rounds. lacy was being billed by showtime as the next tyson, and he was knocking everybody out brutally (stopped vanderpool, robin ried, pemberton, other regular names at the top of the division at the time)
lacy pissed blood after that fight
and his face never looked the same

he finally got roy in the ring and smashed him. you cant flag calzaghe for roy being shot, or for roy not taking the fight until he was shot.
got bernard in the ring and beat him (pretty convincingly in my eyes. close calzaghe decision,)
and since then bernard has proven he's got plenty in the tank



if joe calzaghe had the opportunity to fight the big names earlier in his career he would have. maybe he'd lose, maybe he'd win
but he's one of the most confident men i've ever come across in boxing and certainly never "ducked" anybody simply on the merits of their talents or superiority
so we cant flag him for that
talk to his promotor and his team for not getting him big fights until late in hi career


joe's not the first MW/SMW to labor overseas without much competition until the end of his career
they build these guys into domestic draws and hope to get a shot at a big fight in the states
or they keep up with a good thing and keep them at home and risk little by matching them soft and often


unlike ottke, abraham, even dzinsziruk, etc
calzaghe could ****ing fight and was a world beater

ottke stayed home because he sucked and needed corrupt refs and judges
abraham was ballsy enough to leave but got crushed once he hit world level talent

joe stepped up in the states (or against american fighters with great reputations) and won



in a division largely void of great career fighters
yes, joe calzaghe is among the best to ever fight at the weight.
and a hall of famer



solid bit of digging though on calzaghe's resume
will green k that when i get the opportunity

I want to respond to this later on if I have time. You make some interesting points that are worth discussing :)

Poet

Joeyzagz
05-23-2011, 09:46 AM
Joe Calzaghe has 21 title defenses. Name me a fighter with 20 + defenses who only beat #1 ranked undefeated fighters! Please show me these great champions..

Would you respect Calzaghe more if he faced someone with a 3-3 record like Joe Louis did? Al Mccoy, Tony Musto, Jack Roper? Half the guys Louis defended against were school teachers and army janitors, at least we know Calzaghe defended againts proffessional boxers.

As for BHop, hes naturally bigger than Calzaghe and made a career out of fighting welterweights at middleweight. He is a coward, a bully, and a cheater.

Zagz > Soapy

IronDanHamza
05-23-2011, 10:03 AM
I thought everyone knew this already?

IMDAZED
05-23-2011, 10:04 AM
Of course that would make someone touting Calslapzhe as the all-time p4p GOAT REALLY someone "special" :chuckle9:

Poet

:lol1: :lol1:

CarlosG815
05-23-2011, 10:26 AM
he SMASHED jeff lacy
absolutely crushed him. essentially ended his career over 12 rounds. lacy was being billed by showtime as the next tyson

Jeff Lacy was never very good, and just because he was being touted as the "next Tyson" does not mean that he was good or anything like Tyson. It just means that his promoter knew who to put him in the ring with to make him look impressive so they could sell him as the next Tyson because thats an EASY SELL IN BOXING. Everybody loves Tyson, and they're always waiting for the "next Tyson." But it's not gonna happen. Jesus will come back before we get another Mike Tyson.

Jeff Lacy had nothing aside from his "left hook" to the body and it was only effective against bums. He had no movement, no footwork, and no real boxing skills. The same Roy Jones that got crushed by Danny Green, Lebedev, etc is the same Roy Jones that beat Jeff Lacy.

A SHOT Roy Jones. The same Roy Jones who has been dismantled by journeyman also put Calzaghe on his ass and took him to a decision.

Joe Calzaghe is an absolute joke and the fact that he has fans and supporters just shows that ANYBODY can create a fanbase, albeit he has a very small fan base, but some of you guys are very die hard.

Jeez, watch some boxing and find a new hero. If you're nationalistic, be obsessed with Ted Kid Lewis. He's the best from Britain, get over this Calzaghe joker.

New England
05-23-2011, 03:19 PM
Jeff Lacy was never very good, and just because he was being touted as the "next Tyson" does not mean that he was good or anything like Tyson. It just means that his promoter knew who to put him in the ring with to make him look impressive so they could sell him as the next Tyson because thats an EASY SELL IN BOXING. Everybody loves Tyson, and they're always waiting for the "next Tyson." But it's not gonna happen. Jesus will come back before we get another Mike Tyson.

Jeff Lacy had nothing aside from his "left hook" to the body and it was only effective against bums. He had no movement, no footwork, and no real boxing skills. The same Roy Jones that got crushed by Danny Green, Lebedev, etc is the same Roy Jones that beat Jeff Lacy.

A SHOT Roy Jones. The same Roy Jones who has been dismantled by journeyman also put Calzaghe on his ass and took him to a decision.

Joe Calzaghe is an absolute joke and the fact that he has fans and supporters just shows that ANYBODY can create a fanbase, albeit he has a very small fan base, but some of you guys are very die hard.

Jeez, watch some boxing and find a new hero. If you're nationalistic, be obsessed with Ted Kid Lewis. He's the best from Britain, get over this Calzaghe joker.



didn't you notice that i said lacy was being touted as the next tyson by showtime?

do i look like showtime to you?

and i don't think i said a word about "how great lacy was"
i showed a short off the head list of solid fighters that he walloped
i'm certainly not going back through an entire long post to address your grievances




new england is in the united states

ME, NH, VT, MA, CT, RI

that's new england


you need a map
oh, and a clue!

The Surgeon
05-23-2011, 03:30 PM
didn't you notice that i said lacy was being touted as the next tyson by showtime?

do i look like showtime to you?

and i don't think i said a word about "how great lacy was"
i showed a short off the head list of solid fighters that he walloped
i'm certainly not going back through an entire long post to address your grievances




new england is in the united states

ME, NH, VT, MA, CT, RI

that's new england


you need a map
oh, and a clue!

Just lookin at ur sig there, id put money on G man knocking his ass out

New England
05-23-2011, 03:35 PM
Just lookin at ur sig there, id put money on G man knocking his ass out


probably the case and probably a safe bet with that casche

in the situations where joe got hurt and came back (pretty regularly for a top flight fighter with fast hands and feet) the g man would likely put him away with two handed punching power


fighting with your hands down against the g man would be borderline suicide

New England
05-23-2011, 03:38 PM
I want to respond to this later on if I have time. You make some interesting points that are worth discussing :)

Poet




lol looking forward to it more than "you biased limey prick!" a la carlos G


**** happens when you're from detroit i guess

CarlosG815
05-23-2011, 04:40 PM
didn't you notice that i said lacy was being touted as the next tyson by showtime?

do i look like showtime to you?

and i don't think i said a word about "how great lacy was"
i showed a short off the head list of solid fighters that he walloped
i'm certainly not going back through an entire long post to address your grievances




new england is in the united states

ME, NH, VT, MA, CT, RI

that's new england


you need a map
oh, and a clue!

A couple of things, son.

Here is a quote from you.

"he SMASHED jeff lacy
absolutely crushed him. essentially ended his career over 12 rounds. lacy was being billed by showtime as the next tyson, and he was knocking everybody out brutally (stopped vanderpool, robin ried, pemberton, other regular names at the top of the division at the time)
lacy pissed blood after that fight
and his face never looked the same"

Now why would you go into detail and put such great emphasis on what Jeff Lacy did prior to facing Calzaghe, even so far as listing off some bums he beat up, and then speak about him pissing blood and looking disfigured?

That's like talking about how great Tyson is and then mentioning the pasting he dished out to David Jaco. We do not do those things, because it doesn't mean ****.

You are embarrassed at how I have called you out. It's obvious that you know nothing about Jeff Lacy or his career, and after you did some research, you are trying to pawn off what you said as "Showtime said this, not me" yet you went on and on as if you were trying to emphasize that as a great win for Calzaghe. You were owned, and now you are trying to backtrack, but it isn't going to work. You thought Lacy was a good win, you obviously agreed with Showtimes "touting" or you wouldn't have mentioned it, and you believed that those guys you mentioned helped to back up YOUR case for Lacy being a solid fight. Don't be embarrassed, bud. Sorry I got you quoted before you could edit it upon learning the truth about Lacy.

Secondly, I am not aware of where you live, but I did not assume you were British, my comment was directed toward the board clown, JoeyZagz, not you. I did not look at you as somebody who was nationalistic, I honestly just looked at your post as a guy who had no idea what he was talking about. It is you who needs a clue, and I suggest you get one before you go using Lacy to justify the greatness of Joe Calzaghe.

CarlosG815
05-23-2011, 04:44 PM
lol looking forward to it more than "you biased limey prick!" a la carlos G


**** happens when you're from detroit i guess

That's what you got from my post? Don't pretend that's what you got out of it - you were schooled on Jeff Lacy.

And exactly what "****" do you think happens when you are from Detroit?

New England
05-23-2011, 04:57 PM
A couple of things, son.

Here is a quote from you.

"he SMASHED jeff lacy
absolutely crushed him. essentially ended his career over 12 rounds. lacy was being billed by showtime as the next tyson, and he was knocking everybody out brutally (stopped vanderpool, robin ried, pemberton, other regular names at the top of the division at the time)
lacy pissed blood after that fight
and his face never looked the same"

Now why would you go into detail and put such great emphasis on what Jeff Lacy did prior to facing Calzaghe, even so far as listing off some bums he beat up, and then speak about him pissing blood and looking disfigured?

That's like talking about how great Tyson is and then mentioning the pasting he dished out to David Jaco. We do not do those things, because it doesn't mean ****.

You are embarrassed at how I have called you out. It's obvious that you know nothing about Jeff Lacy or his career, and after you did some research, you are trying to pawn off what you said as "Showtime said this, not me" yet you went on and on as if you were trying to emphasize that as a great win for Calzaghe. You were owned, and now you are trying to backtrack, but it isn't going to work. You thought Lacy was a good win, you obviously agreed with Showtimes "touting" or you wouldn't have mentioned it, and you believed that those guys you mentioned helped to back up YOUR case for Lacy being a solid fight. Don't be embarrassed, bud. Sorry I got you quoted before you could edit it upon learning the truth about Lacy.

Secondly, I am aware that you are not British, my comment was directed toward the board clown, JoeyZagz, not you. It is you who needs a clue, and I suggest you get one before you go using Lacy to justify the greatness of Joe Calzaghe.




since when is going into detail or outlining the goings-on during a time period nut hugging? or proof of anything about my beliefs (that i bought into, and evidently still buy into jeff lacy showtime hype?)

seriously?

the intention was to illustrate that lacy was the favorite in that fight and that calzaghe exposed him and whipped his ass


and as for the bold part
what on earth are you even talking about?


i'm not embarrassed, or owned, rushed to edit inconsistencies about arguments i have no grasp of in some kind of conspiracy, etc



call me out all you want
i'm not going anywhere
... other than my monthly jeff lacy fanclub gatherings

we wear shirts that say:

"Left" on the front
and "Hook" on the back

New England
05-23-2011, 05:05 PM
That's what you got from my post? Don't pretend that's what you got out of it - you were schooled on Jeff Lacy.

And exactly what "****" do you think happens when you are from Detroit?




lol it's your rock we're all just living on it!
thank you for making me laugh


the stars blot out the word s h i t
as in "****" happens when you're from detroit


do you seriously think detroit has a positive reputation these days?
do you really need me to fill in the blanks?



edit: i should not make sweeping generalizations about entire cities and apologize

CarlosG815
05-23-2011, 05:09 PM
lol it's your rock we're all just living on it!
thank you for making me laugh


the stars blot out the word s h i t
as in "****" happens when you're from detroit


do you seriously think detroit has a positive reputation these days?
do you really need me to fill in the blanks?


Sure why not? Share with me what you know of Detroit, as you have in educating us all on Jeff Lacy and Joe Calzaghe. I am looking forward to it.

crold1
05-23-2011, 08:33 PM
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year. (http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings)

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?

Just to add a bit, pulled some old Ring's and you're undercutting some, looking at the wrong listings for others (references included), and not addressing full context for others still:

Reid was actually 6 going in (Ring, 3/99) and the win was hardly controversial at the time. It's become a controversy years later because it was close.
Woodhall was rated 10 going into the fight with Calzaghe and had been rated as high as 2 prior to a very close loss to Beyer (Ring, 1/01); good fight where Woodhall closed hard after being decked early.
Manfredo was 10 going in (Ring, 4/07)
Mger Mkrtchya would go on to be rated as high as #6 (Ring, 1/07) after the Calzaghe loss
Sheika and Bika would both be rated (Bika still is) following losses to Calzaghe
Roy Jones was still rated going into the Calzaghe fight (#7 and stayed for a while after: click here (http://******.craveonline.com/blog/122535-ring-ratings-update)); pointed out for accuracy; that win is meaningless beyond the rating.

So, yeah, still not awe inspiring in chunks but it would also be interesting to pull some old Boxing Monthly's from the UK and see where they regarded Starie who was well regarded before that eye-abortion he had with Joe (that was once an anticipated fight) and some other Euros. Ring can occasionally be argued as U.S. market biased.

IronDanHamza
05-23-2011, 08:47 PM
Just to add a bit, pulled some old Ring's and you're undercutting some, looking at the wrong listings for others (references included), and not addressing full context for others still:

Reid was actually 6 going in (Ring, 3/99) and the win was hardly controversial at the time. It's become a controversy years later because it was close.
Woodhall was rated 10 going into the fight with Calzaghe and had been rated as high as 2 prior to a very close loss to Beyer (Ring, 1/01); good fight where Woodhall closed hard after being decked early.
Manfredo was 10 going in (Ring, 4/07)
Mger Mkrtchya would go on to be rated as high as #6 (Ring, 1/07) after the Calzaghe loss
Sheika and Bika would both be rated (Bika still is) following losses to Calzaghe
Roy Jones was still rated going into the Calzaghe fight (#7 and stayed for a while after: click here (http://******.craveonline.com/blog/122535-ring-ratings-update)); pointed out for accuracy; that win is meaningless beyond the rating.

So, yeah, still not awe inspiring in chunks but it would also be interesting to pull some old Boxing Monthly's from the UK and see where they regarded Starie who was well regarded before that eye-abortion he had with Joe (that was once an anticipated fight) and some other Euros. Ring can occasionally be argued as U.S. market biased.

Still, pretty shocking that his entire title reign consisted of only 2 fighters ranked in the Top 5 in Lacy and Kessler who are hardly world beaters.

crold1
05-23-2011, 09:16 PM
Still, pretty shocking that his entire title reign consisted of only 2 fighters ranked in the Top 5 in Lacy and Kessler who are hardly world beaters.

Not really. When there are four beltholders who typically hold it down and you've got market splits, top five guys are hard to come by. Guys like Mitchell and Woodhall and Reid could all have been in that range and in some cases were a hair off. It doesn't change much. Calzaghe's resume strength is in being top heavy and consistent. It's weakness is in being part of a split title era and reigning in between good eras at Super Middle generally. Hopkins had a similar problem in his reign prior to the tourney at 160. Hopkins's resume has exploded in awesomeness at Light Heavy, doubling the quality wins on his record.

It's one reason why Hopkins will likely end up regarded inside the top 30 fighters of all time and Calzaghe will end up somewhere low in a top 100 or just outside in a nod to his cleaning out a class.

Both great fighters. Both will be integral to all-time debates (one across board, the other in a class). They are the ultimate example of varying degrees of greatness inside even a single era.

IronDanHamza
05-24-2011, 01:27 PM
Not really. When there are four beltholders who typically hold it down and you've got market splits, top five guys are hard to come by. Guys like Mitchell and Woodhall and Reid could all have been in that range and in some cases were a hair off. It doesn't change much. Calzaghe's resume strength is in being top heavy and consistent. It's weakness is in being part of a split title era and reigning in between good eras at Super Middle generally. Hopkins had a similar problem in his reign prior to the tourney at 160. Hopkins's resume has exploded in awesomeness at Light Heavy, doubling the quality wins on his record.

It's one reason why Hopkins will likely end up regarded inside the top 30 fighters of all time and Calzaghe will end up somewhere low in a top 100 or just outside in a nod to his cleaning out a class.

Both great fighters. Both will be integral to all-time debates (one across board, the other in a class). They are the ultimate example of varying degrees of greatness inside even a single era.

I respectfully disagree.

Joe Calzaghe didn't do his best to fight the best. He was more than happy with Frank Warren giving him bum after bum to fight and rack up title defences.

These are the fighters that were available during his reign who were in the top 5;

Sven Ottke
Bruno Girard
Antwun Echols
Eric Lucas
Anthony Mundine
Danny Green
Marcus Beyer
Liborado Andrade
Lucia Bute
Thomas Tate

Now I'm not saying he should have fought them all nor am I saying that it's his fault. But the fact is, they were available, and he only fought 2 fighters in his entire reigh that were ranked in the Top 5 at 168. To me, that's a joke.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to find someone with close to that many title defences whilst only fighting 2 fighters that were ranked in the top 5.

He fought a few top 10 guys and close to top 5 but only 2 whilst they were actually ranked there.

The fact remains for one reason or another his resume is pretty empty. With very few top ranked competition in there.

New England
05-24-2011, 02:38 PM
I respectfully disagree.

Joe Calzaghe didn't do his best to fight the best. He was more than happy with Frank Warren giving him bum after bum to fight and rack up title defences.

These are the fighters that were available during his reign who were in the top 5;

Sven Ottke
Bruno Girard
Antwun Echols
Eric Lucas
Anthony Mundine
Danny Green
Marcus Beyer
Liborado Andrade
Lucia Bute
Thomas Tate

Now I'm not saying he should have fought them all nor am I saying that it's his fault. But the fact is, they were available, and he only fought 2 fighters in his entire reigh that were ranked in the Top 5 at 168. To me, that's a joke.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to find someone with close to that many title defences whilst only fighting 2 fighters that were ranked in the top 5.

He fought a few top 10 guys and close to top 5 but only 2 whilst they were actually ranked there.

The fact remains for one reason or another his resume is pretty empty. With very few top ranked competition in there.



i tend to be on board with you on this one, danhamza.


much more could have been done with joe calzaghe
maybe head to light HW earlier
perhaps come to america earlier
i'm not saying those were the answers to getting him bigger fights earlier in his career
we'd have to go year by year to figure out sensible directions for his career


outside of two fights in the united states
one in denmark
and one in germany,
he was a UK domestic that stayed at home



as Crold put it, his resume is top heavy
lacy, bika, manfredo jr. ( :boxing: ) kessler, hopkins, and roy jone's corpse is a nice little run to end an undefeated career, and you cant flag the man for hanging them up. after all, he had almost 50 fights and over 250 rds as a pro


not to open another book here,
who remained for calzaghe to fight, anyhow? either before the time of his retirement or in the brief window of opportunity after?
chad dawson? hardly capable of generating roy jones and bernard hopkins money. i was at his last fight in CT (his home state) and he was boo'ed.
carl froch? he just wasn't there yet. and an untimely stinker with dirrell that many thought froch lost didn't help matters
oh and that super six thing
bute was knocked out by liberado andrade and saved by a ref, and wasn't in a position to lure calzaghe out of retirement at the time
and then joe was busted taking drugs



a note: upon checking out joe's boxrec for the first time in a good while i was shocked to find 32 stoppages on calzaghe's record. all this talk on the bscene about how frail his punches are probably clouded my memory :)

they're probably primarily of the "get this guy off of me," sort, but that's still impressive for a guy who honestly cant crack an egg and has hands like a nine year old girl

The Surgeon
05-24-2011, 02:49 PM
Lets take a look at Joe Calzaghe's supposed Greatness...


I have a better idea. Lets pretend the gimp never existed.

PRINCE O' PROSE
05-24-2011, 04:27 PM
A couple of things, son.

Here is a quote from you.

"he SMASHED jeff lacy
absolutely crushed him. essentially ended his career over 12 rounds. lacy was being billed by showtime as the next tyson, and he was knocking everybody out brutally (stopped vanderpool, robin ried, pemberton, other regular names at the top of the division at the time)
lacy pissed blood after that fight
and his face never looked the same"

Now why would you go into detail and put such great emphasis on what Jeff Lacy did prior to facing Calzaghe, even so ...*snip*...
I don't think he was trying to say Lacy was some worldbeater. I think he was pointing more to the extreme manner in which Joe dismantled and pretty much finished a fellow titlist who was a credible contender and a decent, well-rated fighter with KO threat.

I didn't get any of what you're trying to project onto his post from what he actually said in it. None.

So you just wasted a whole ton of laboured, hostile posturing. In a scholarly subforum like this one, why not just take a measured tone? It's not as if everything you say is rational, anyway - you've posted some pretty outlandish stuff in topics here.

Simmer down and respect the subforum.

CarlosG815
05-24-2011, 04:45 PM
I don't think he was trying to say Lacy was some worldbeater. I think he was pointing more to the extreme manner in which Joe dismantled and pretty much finished a fellow titlist who was a credible contender and a decent, well-rated fighter with KO threat.

I didn't get any of what you're trying to project onto his post from what he actually said in it. None.

So you just wasted a whole ton of laboured, hostile posturing. In a scholarly subforum like this one, why not just take a measured tone? It's not as if everything you say is rational, anyway - you've posted some pretty outlandish stuff in topics here.

Simmer down and respect the subforum.

So then what did you get from the post? :omfg: The point is, the extreme manner of beating a "nobody" means nothing. That's what my point was. As I said, it's like trying to talk about Tyson and mentioning what he did to David Jaco or Michael Johnson - it's not going to help the case. You say he was a titlist and a KO threat but the fact is that he was nothing but a hypejob, a worse hypejob than Kirkland or any other guy that people try to tout as the next big thing in boxing.

My claims may be outlandish, but they're usually pertaining to legit greats like Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey, etc. not the likes of a phony of Calzaghes caliber.

CarlosG815
05-24-2011, 04:49 PM
a note: upon checking out joe's boxrec for the first time in a good while i was shocked to find 32 stoppages on calzaghe's record. all this talk on the bscene about how frail his punches are probably clouded my memory :)


Joe Calzaghe has some of the worst stoppages in the history of the sport, many of which are a downright disgrace. Most of them aren't legit stoppages, they are products of crooked boxing via fixed fights.

And to answer who he should have fought... Yeah Chad Dawson wouldn't have been a bad matchup at the time he retired, seeing as how he managed to duck every top fighter in their prime throughout his career. Glen Johnson at the time of Joe's retirement was still a top guy and would have been a good fight. Joe ducked him several times.

CarlosG815
05-24-2011, 05:01 PM
Look at what a joke this guy is.

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tSOTkRrQuys" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Most of these are downright shameful.
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ACgTJhEdj5M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

$BloodyNate$
05-24-2011, 05:19 PM
I respectfully disagree.

Joe Calzaghe didn't do his best to fight the best. He was more than happy with Frank Warren giving him bum after bum to fight and rack up title defences.

These are the fighters that were available during his reign who were in the top 5;

Sven Ottke
Bruno Girard
Antwun Echols
Eric Lucas
Anthony Mundine
Danny Green
Marcus Beyer
Liborado Andrade
Lucia Bute
Thomas Tate

Now I'm not saying he should have fought them all nor am I saying that it's his fault. But the fact is, they were available, and he only fought 2 fighters in his entire reigh that were ranked in the Top 5 at 168. To me, that's a joke.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to find someone with close to that many title defences whilst only fighting 2 fighters that were ranked in the top 5.

He fought a few top 10 guys and close to top 5 but only 2 whilst they were actually ranked there.

The fact remains for one reason or another his resume is pretty empty. With very few top ranked competition in there.

Great ass post right here folks. Why the hell would Hopkins or Roy Jones be ducking him when he was still a long way from proving he was a great champion by fighting top 5 fighters. He didn't do that until like the last 2 years of his career. And that's when he finally got his shot at Hopkins when he finally had the balls to step up, but of course Hopkins lost his speed by then.

It's just ridiculous though he had 21 defenses around the same time as somebody elses 20 defenses at the same weight. That's a joke. How could they not cross paths? They were both scared to death of each other.

PRINCE O' PROSE
05-24-2011, 05:36 PM
So then what did you get from the post? :omfg: The point is, the extreme manner of beating a "nobody" means nothing. That's what my point was. As I said, it's like trying to talk about Tyson and mentioning what he did to David Jaco or Michael Johnson - it's not going to help the case. You say he was a titlist and a KO threat but the fact is that he was nothing but a hypejob, a worse hypejob than Kirkland or any other guy that people try to tout as the next big thing in boxing.

My claims may be outlandish, but they're usually pertaining to legit greats like Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey, etc. not the likes of a phony of Calzaghes caliber.
Lacy was overhyped, yes.

But overhype does two things; it makes fans/analysts overrate fighters contemporaneously, but it can also make people underrate fighters (to varying degrees) in retrospect.


Don't get me wrong, Lacy wasn't the force of nature he was cracked up to be coming into that fight, but he was a credible contender in his prime who held a title, a solid fighter.

And to answer your question in the bold (a second time), I think the poster was just pointing to the manner in which Joe razed this young, strong contender/titlist's career to the ground, not just that he beat him, but the manner in which he did it was utterly complete and somewhat ruthless.


Joe Calzaghe is a bit of a strange one, a curious mix of pros and cons. Some people think much too highly of the fighter and what he did, some think much too little.


Joe's only a phony if you're looking at the spurious claim for All-Time Greatness made on his behalf. As a Hall Of Famer, he's legitimate.

jermainerambo
05-24-2011, 05:49 PM
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year. (http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings)

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?



you can't reject reality and substitute your own


joe calzaghe is the LONGEST-REIGNING WORLD CHAMPION OF THE MODERN ERA second longest reign in history

joe calzaghe won the WBO,WBA,WBC,IBF,IBO AND RING MAGAZINE BELTS AT 168 AN 175

calzaghe is the ONLY ONE IN HISTORY TO BECOME UNDISPUTED SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION

calzaghe is the 1 OUT OF THE 4 MEN IN HISTORY TO HAVE OVER 20 TITLE DEFENCES

calzaghe was the SECOND BOXER IN HISTORY TO WIN 3 CONSECUTIVE ABA TITLE AT 3 DIFFERENT WEIGHTS

calzaghe BEAT THE LONGEST-REIGNING MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION IN HISTORY

calzaghe is the 1 OUT OF ONLY 3 BOXERS IN HISTORY TO BE UNDISPUTED AND UNDEFEATED WORLD CHAMPION

calzaghe was CHAMPION FOR 11YRS AND RETIRED UNDEFEATED 46-0


joe calzaghe beat a 31yr old guy with over 20 championship fights to become champion

calzaghe is the only one to beat bernard hopkins at light heavyweight


joe calzaghe is the greatest fighter of his generation he beat everybody who dared to fight him.....you just have to learn to live with this so stop :crying::crying::crying:and accept reality and do the math 46-0=46

CarlosG815
05-24-2011, 05:53 PM
And to answer your question in the bold (a second time), I think the poster was just pointing to the manner in which Joe razed this young, strong contender/titlist's career to the ground, not just that he beat him, but the manner in which he did it was utterly complete and somewhat ruthless.


And to answer you again, it has no meaning to me (and it shouldn't to anyone) that a phony hypejob got embarrassed by anybody. Look at the manner in which Ishida dismantled Kirkland (who is another Lacy, no skills, good management, hypejob) and much more impressively and Ishida is a nobody.

I guess to me it just doesn't matter as a win over Lacy says nothing to back up the fighter. It comes off to me that he is not just trying to say that he ended his career, but that he ended his career and that at the same time it was an impressive feat, which it was not because Lacy was never that good and the same Lacy that lost to Calzaghe got beat up by a shot to hell Roy Jones.

And what was so ruthless to you about getting slapped around and potshotted? Lacy was tired and falling all over the place because he was a 2 round fighter and after the 2nd round he was gassed.

You're acting like Calzaghe gave him this brutal beatdown when in reality he potshotted a guy who had no legs since the 3rd round to a boring snoozer UD.

Good job running to your boyfriends defense though. It's commendable how you stand by your man.

crold1
05-24-2011, 06:08 PM
UI respectfully disagree.

Joe Calzaghe didn't do his best to fight the best. He was more than happy with Frank Warren giving him bum after bum to fight and rack up title defences.

These are the fighters that were available during his reign who were in the top 5;

Sven Ottke
Bruno Girard
Antwun Echols
Eric Lucas
Anthony Mundine
Danny Green
Marcus Beyer
Liborado Andrade
Lucia Bute
Thomas Tate

Now I'm not saying he should have fought them all nor am I saying that it's his fault. But the fact is, they were available, and he only fought 2 fighters in his entire reigh that were ranked in the Top 5 at 168. To me, that's a joke.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to find someone with close to that many title defences whilst only fighting 2 fighters that were ranked in the top 5.

He fought a few top 10 guys and close to top 5 but only 2 whilst they were actually ranked there.

The fact remains for one reason or another his resume is pretty empty. With very few top ranked competition in there.

I agree with a lot of this and have said as much in the past. However, it speaks to divisional mediocrity that this is what was missed. Ottke and Liles are the only serious misses IMO and beating Mitchell, Lacy, and Kessler washes it. Ottke was never going to be matched with him leaving Liles the big miss. I think unifying and leaving he class essentially cleaned out ultimately outweighed what misses there were.

I wrote a lengthy critique on Joe a while back which lays out where I stand: http://www.boxingscene.com/measured-against-all-time-joe-calzaghe--16920

PRINCE O' PROSE
05-24-2011, 06:11 PM
There are many decent fighters in boxing history who might be described as 'nobodies' in some quarters, Ishida is just one more. Lacy, while deeply flawed, established himself more than Kirkland ever has (and, FWIW, I'd been slating the Kirkland hype on this forum for years before Ishida beat him).


Look, I thought Lacy was overrated, too. Never bought into the fanfare and the building him up into something he wasn't. Doesn't blind me to what he actually was, though.


If Calzaghe was the "fraud" you're making out, he wouldn't have been able to "embarrass" that guy in that fashion. Period. Lacy may have been limited, but it takes something very good to expose it to that degree.

And, yes, you do get some extra points for the manner in which you win a fight. I'm not saying it makes it a great win, but certainly a very creditable one.



Don't expect further correspondence, because I'm out of this subforum. Too many of you don't know how to use it.

New England
05-24-2011, 06:43 PM
Joe Calzaghe has some of the worst stoppages in the history of the sport, many of which are a downright disgrace. Most of them aren't legit stoppages, they are products of crooked boxing via fixed fights.

And to answer who he should have fought... Yeah Chad Dawson wouldn't have been a bad matchup at the time he retired, seeing as how he managed to duck every top fighter in their prime throughout his career. Glen Johnson at the time of Joe's retirement was still a top guy and would have been a good fight. Joe ducked him several times.




are you effin serious?!
or do you just troll along?


you think fights were fixed for joe calzaghe?

lol!
why not fix a fight or favor a fighter that will actually make you some money
not some homegrown british domestic that never left the UK until he was on the way out?



is some welshy getting a kickback of two kilts a, set of bagpipes, and a hot cup of tea every time zag's opponent takes a dive?


you honestly think most of joe calzaghe's stoppage wins were fixed?

i need some air!

CarlosG815
05-24-2011, 06:47 PM
are you effin serious?!
or do you just troll along?


you think fights were fixed for joe calzaghe?

lol!
why not fix a fight or favor a fighter that will actually make you some money
not some homegrown british domestic that never left the UK until he was on the way out?



is some welshy getting a kickback of two kilts a, set of bagpipes, and a hot cup of tea every time zag's opponent takes a dive?


you honestly think most of joe calzaghe's stoppage wins were fixed?

i need some air!

Watch the video I posted.... What other explanation can you come up with?

Up and coming fighters fight in fixed fights all the time... It is not so outlandish of a claim judging by the stoppages he has had. He has had stoppages without even landing punches on a guy.... It's in the above video, watch it.

New England
05-24-2011, 06:51 PM
There are many decent fighters in boxing history who might be described as 'nobodies' in some quarters, Ishida is just one more. Lacy, while deeply flawed, established himself more than Kirkland ever has (and, FWIW, I'd been slating the Kirkland hype on this forum for years before Ishida beat him).


Look, I thought Lacy was overrated, too. Never bought into the fanfare and the building him up into something he wasn't. Doesn't blind me to what he actually was, though.


If Calzaghe was the "fraud" you're making out, he wouldn't have been able to "embarrass" that guy in that fashion. Period. Lacy may have been limited, but it takes something very good to expose it to that degree.

And, yes, you do get some extra points for the manner in which you win a fight. I'm not saying it makes it a great win, but certainly a very creditable one.



Don't expect further correspondence, because I'm out of this subforum. Too many of you don't know how to use it.



don't leave the history section, brother
you sound like a good chap and your input will be appreciated as it's evident that you have a wealth of boxing knowledge


i'd also like to add that lacy was an olympian
with 209-12 am record. national championship in there as well in a non- olympic year

i can put such information into the pot without hugging lacy's nuts until candy comes out. i'm simply stating facts.

in fact, me putting those facts out there says absolutely nothing about my opinions on the fighter

IronDanHamza
05-24-2011, 06:54 PM
Lacy was overhyped, yes.

But overhype does two things; it makes fans/analysts overrate fighters contemporaneously, but it can also make people underrate fighters (to varying degrees) in retrospect.


Don't get me wrong, Lacy wasn't the force of nature he was cracked up to be coming into that fight, but he was a credible contender in his prime who held a title, a solid fighter.

And to answer your question in the bold (a second time), I think the poster was just pointing to the manner in which Joe razed this young, strong contender/titlist's career to the ground, not just that he beat him, but the manner in which he did it was utterly complete and somewhat ruthless.


Joe Calzaghe is a bit of a strange one, a curious mix of pros and cons. Some people think much too highly of the fighter and what he did, some think much too little.


Joe's only a phony if you're looking at the spurious claim for All-Time Greatness made on his behalf. As a Hall Of Famer, he's legitimate.

I agree.

He's not an ATG IMO, though.

HOF, absolutely.

New England
05-24-2011, 07:02 PM
Watch the video I posted.... What other explanation can you come up with?

Up and coming fighters fight in fixed fights all the time... It is not so outlandish of a claim judging by the stoppages he has had. He has had stoppages without even landing punches on a guy.... It's in the above video, watch it.



i've seen said video. it's been posted here before, and it's certainly bounced around youtube for some time
it's nothing that needs to be watched twice, and certainly not at the request of one as rude as yourself


would i stop those fights at those points? maybe. perhaps not.
i'm not in the ring with the guys watching one guy kick the **** out of the other, so i'm not sure how i'd react given the agency


i would agree with your assertion that some of these fighters could have continued
in fact, i'd point out that in my wanderings around saturday daytime european streams i see lots of early stoppages. perhaps it's a regional thing.


i will not, however, agree that most of his fights were outright fixed, or that outright fixes are common in up and coming fighters. if you really believe that i don't know what to tell you.

most notable up and comers do not need fixes early in their careers
they fight guys that don't belong int the ring with them until they get to a higher pay grade

after all, there's no four round fighter on the planet that can hang with a jose benevidez, who will stay a four round fighter.

in other words, you can find plenty of names to pad a resume that don't need to be fixed
why risk so much fixing a fight when you can pay a guy who is just going to give up and fall down the second he gets hit anyway?


if you want to call a no hoper who tries but has no shot a fix then maybe i understand what you are saying
but otherwise i couldn't be further from agreement

Alec900
05-24-2011, 07:06 PM
calzaghe is the only one to beat bernard hopkins at light heavyweight


joe calzaghe is the greatest fighter of his generation he beat everybody who dared to fight him.....you just have to learn to live with this so stop :crying::crying::crying:and accept reality and do the math 46-0=46

Clinton Mitchell beat Hopkins at LHW

IronDanHamza
05-24-2011, 07:11 PM
Clinton Mitchell beat Hopkins at LHW

:lol1:

Very true!

Boxing Bob
05-24-2011, 07:57 PM
I'm not gonna say FIX! FIX! But some of those KO's on that piece look really fishy. Just sayin.

DeepSleep
05-24-2011, 08:11 PM
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year. (http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings)

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?

The Truth ^^^.

The sad thing is as ugly as his technique was he did have talent and could have been a memorable fighter. Instead he chickened out and will be a footnote in history, which makes it all the more frustrating.

Their is no excuse for constantly avoiding the top fighters.

Ziggy Stardust
05-24-2011, 08:12 PM
don't leave the history section, brother
you sound like a good chap and your input will be appreciated as it's evident that you have a wealth of boxing knowledge


i'd also like to add that lacy was an olympian
with 209-12 am record. national championship in there as well in a non- olympic year

i can put such information into the pot without hugging lacy's nuts until candy comes out. i'm simply stating facts.

in fact, me putting those facts out there says absolutely nothing about my opinions on the fighter

That's MIB by the way.....he's usually in the lounge pwning the hell out of PB32 :grin9:

Poet

CarlosG815
05-24-2011, 08:29 PM
The Truth ^^^.

The sad thing is as ugly as his technique was he did have talent and could have been a memorable fighter. Instead he chickened out and will be a footnote in history, which makes it all the more frustrating.

Their is no excuse for constantly avoiding the top fighters.

Do you know who the girl in your avatar is, or did you just find it somewhere online?

New England
05-24-2011, 09:27 PM
That's MIB by the way.....he's usually in the lounge pwning the hell out of PB32 :grin9:

Poet

lol
the lounge gives me the creeps

Joeyzagz
05-24-2011, 09:36 PM
Do you know who the girl in your avatar is, or did you just find it somewhere online?

That girl is 14 you sick f*ck. But I guess thats par for the course from a Tyson fan.

It takes an extreme discipline to achieve a perfect record like Calzaghe has. It requires not raping girls and engaging in fixed matches(Dempsey) I can understand why you hate Calzaghe.:drive:

Jim Jeffries
05-24-2011, 09:42 PM
Calzaghe will probably go to the Hall of Fame but anyone touting him as some top 100 fighter or something probably isn't very bright.

Not really. When there are four beltholders who typically hold it down and you've got market splits, top five guys are hard to come by. Guys like Mitchell and Woodhall and Reid could all have been in that range and in some cases were a hair off. It doesn't change much. Calzaghe's resume strength is in being top heavy and consistent. It's weakness is in being part of a split title era and reigning in between good eras at Super Middle generally. Hopkins had a similar problem in his reign prior to the tourney at 160. Hopkins's resume has exploded in awesomeness at Light Heavy, doubling the quality wins on his record.

It's one reason why Hopkins will likely end up regarded inside the top 30 fighters of all time and Calzaghe will end up somewhere low in a top 100 or just outside in a nod to his cleaning out a class.

Both great fighters. Both will be integral to all-time debates (one across board, the other in a class). They are the ultimate example of varying degrees of greatness inside even a single era.

You gonna take that Cliff?

CarlosG815
05-24-2011, 09:43 PM
That girl is 14 you sick f*ck. But I guess thats par for the course from a Tyson fan.

It takes an extreme discipline to achieve a perfect record like Calzaghe has. It requires not raping girls and engaging in fixed matches(Dempsey) I can understand why you hate Calzaghe.:drive:

Actually that girl dated a friend of mine, I know who she is which is why I am curious how he got that photo. She is 24 years old. She is 10 years older than what you guessed, which is about how many years removed most of Calzaghes opposition was from their prime.

Nice try Zags, but once again you are a buffoon and a fool.

And one way to ensure nobody takes you seriously is to defame a legitimate ATG and boxing icon like Dempsey just to make yourself feel better about a phony like Joe Calzaghe. :tool:

crold1
05-24-2011, 09:57 PM
You gonna take that Cliff?

LOL...I like IMDAZED...we can disagree on who is the range of 80-100 (or just misses the 100 cut). When I actually do a top 100, we'll see where he lands. :)

Darkstar
05-26-2011, 02:11 AM
I dont think anybody claims the Calzaghe is top 25 of all time. Like all fighters, in some area, he left something to be desired. The main knock against Calzaghe seems to be competition fought. While it wasnt perfect, it wasnt that bad. He went undefeated, was lineal champion in two divisions, all while using a active, action style that earned him a 70% KO rate.

Interesting enough the main names he "should have fought", he ended up fighting anyway, and won. After cleaning out contenders, the main guys around his weight were always Benard Hopkins and Roy Jones. In the case of the Hopkins fight, when they finally did fight, it was just as big of a fight(if not bigger) and just as a legit of a fight, then it would have been before. Both men now being in the P4P top 5. Little know fact, Calzaghe wanted Hopkins in 2002-2003 and made a large offer to fight. Hopkins turned it down.

"We have to get Joe to America and the right fight is Bernard Hopkins," said Showtime boxing chief Jay Larkin.
"Hopkins turned down a lot of money from us to fight Calzaghe last year, but after what Joe did to Mitchell we can up the ante and offer more."

Hopkins turned down an offer of 3m to face Calzaghe last year, and since his last significant fight - against Felix Trinidad in 2001 - his financial demands have blown lucrative bouts with Roy Jones Jr and James Toney.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/3030004.stm

Dont know what else Calzaghe could have done in that situation really. A 3m offer and was willing to travel to America to give Hopkins the advantage.

All in all, I agree with where most of the boxing historians rank Calzaghe. Bert Sugar, boxing memories, the Bleacher Report etc., all have him ranked in the top 100. Usually somewhere around 90-100 of the best ever.

Toney616
05-27-2011, 01:16 PM
I wouldnt class him as a ATG, but definately as a hofer though
His problem was that he stayed in the smw division way too long. The only fight there worth making was against Liles, but he only had around a 1.5 year window to make that fight. Outside of that he should of moved up to lhw, which wasnt actually overflowing with talent either, but at least it was better than smw.