View Full Version : Jack Johnson vs. Wlad Klitschko


BigStereotype
05-17-2011, 08:16 PM
I was thinking about this fight today, wondering how it would play out. In all likelihood, it would be a snoozer but it could be an interesting tactical fight. I'm kinda torn on who would win. Johnson is the greater heavyweight with the better resume, but Wlad is no walk in the park and Johnson would have trouble landing that uppercut on a chin that's thirty-two feet in the air. What do you guys think?

DarkTerror88
05-17-2011, 08:22 PM
Personally i think Wlad's Offense isnt face paced enough to catch Johnson who is arguable the greatest defensive master in the division.

The only advantage Wlad has here is size and maybe strength. I think Johnson can neutralize his offense for 12 or 15 rounds. I mean he WAS used to fighting longer than that.

BigStereotype
05-17-2011, 08:30 PM
Personally i think Wlad's Offense isnt face paced enough to catch Johnson who is arguable the greatest defensive master in the division.

The only advantage Wlad has here is size and maybe strength. I think Johnson can neutralize his offense for 12 or 15 rounds. I mean he WAS used to fighting longer than that.

See I was thinking that too. I doubt very much that Klitschko could KO him. But I started falling into that trap of "well Johnson's defense was so good (supposedly, I haven't seen all that much of him and the available footage isn't mindblowing) that Klitschko couldn't hit him!" But Klitschko has pretty good defense, too and Jack was a very...measured fighter. I really don't know. I feel like the cool thing is to just say "oh the Klitschkos suck, Johnson murks him" but it's an ugly style matchup for anyone...

Terry A
05-17-2011, 08:46 PM
I'm gonna put my head out here as a human pinata, but I'm taking Wladimir Klitschko in this match up.

6'1 1/2", 192-220 lbs in his prime vs a 6'6 1/2" 245 lb heavy handed boxer???

And besides that, Johnson had a 37.63 life time KO%. Klitscko, as I type this, is at 84.48%.

The only way JJ wins is by a decision. I don't see that happening.

physiker
05-17-2011, 08:52 PM
Can't take JJ's KOrecord seriously!

In many fights, he had to carry white opponents, and knew if he KOed them, he risked lynching.--so he didn't.

He was probably better than we can realize. Ali said he was great.

Scott9945
05-17-2011, 09:19 PM
Usually I would pick someone like Klitschko here. But Jack Johnson was one tough SOB to fight. Almost nobody ever looked good fighting him. He wasn't a tiny heavyweight and I can see him frustrating and wearing down WK for a late stoppage. The fight has to be ugly for Johnson to pull this off though.

Terry A
05-17-2011, 09:26 PM
Can't take JJ's KOrecord seriously!

In many fights, he had to carry white opponents, and knew if he KOed them, he risked lynching.--so he didn't.

He was probably better than we can realize. Ali said he was great.

physiker,
Just to be clear, we can't take JJ's record serious for the reason you put forth or we can't take any black man's record seriously from that era for the same reasoning? I don't understand.

At what year CAN we take a fighter's record "seriously"? Or is it just Jack Johnson's record that shows him "carrying" white men??? Do you know which ones he carried?

The reason I ask that is because he KO'ed, among others, Fireman Jim Flynn, Bob Fitzsimmons, Stanley Ketchel & James J. Jeffries. All very white & all very popular.

He did, however, go the distance with Sam McVay, Joe Jeanette, Young Peter Jackson & Sam Langford. All very black.

His record is what it is.

Plus, seriously now, what was Muhammad Ali gonna say???

Steak
05-17-2011, 09:38 PM
Wladimir by decison in a boring fight. If this is fought at unlimited rounds, then maybe Johnson would win.

Johnson hugged and ran too much, and wouldnt put up enough pressure on Wladimir. Wladimir has the better jab and hits harder, and if he is allowed to fight at his own pace(or slower) he can control the fight.

Wladimir as the larger man would lean on Johnson and be just fine with his multiple clinches, and be stronger in the clinch as well.

Ziggy Stardust
05-17-2011, 09:44 PM
Wlad might have a shot at winning now.....since Johnson's been dead for about 70 years, though that makes him more "live" than any of Wlad's pathetic opponents.

Poet

TBear
05-18-2011, 01:45 AM
Wlad might have a shot at winning now.....since Johnson's been dead for about 70 years, though that makes him more "live" than any of Wlad's pathetic opponents.

Poet

:lol1:
..................................

BigStereotype
05-18-2011, 02:01 AM
I feel like Johnson should be the favorite here, but just going over the footage I think his game is all wrong to beat Wlad. I keep running it over in my head and I keep coming to the same conclusion. Wlad by decision. But he doesn't have any kind of win that would suggest that he's capable of it. Very conflicted here.

Barn
05-18-2011, 04:21 AM
Very intriguing match-up, I think it depends on the duration of you specify, BigStereotype.

$BloodyNate$
05-18-2011, 05:17 AM
Jack Johnson by TKO/KO here. The one thing that made the old time fighters look so much tougher is that they had the cardio to go 15 championship round fights. Then people want to say modern day fighters have better training and fight preparation type bs yet they are gassing barely going 12 rounds.

But anyway, Klitschko is only good because of his size and jab. His jab makes him dictate the pace of the fight in his favor in a slow pace ugly fight. Johnson was one of the best at doing that too, plus he had a decent punch. He'd give to Klitschko at his pace, throw Wlad off rhythm while his face is getting busted open by Johnsons shots. Wlad will gas under the pressure and Johnson gets the late stoppage! Jack Johnson did beat young Sam Langford. He might have ducked him for a 2nd fight but he did easily defeat Sam Langford once pretty easily so he wasn't no scrub like the people that the Klitschko's beat today.

Barn
05-18-2011, 05:34 AM
Jack Johnson by TKO/KO here. The one thing that made the old time fighters look so much tougher is that they had the cardio to go 15 championship round fights. Then people want to say modern day fighters have better training and fight preparation type bs yet they are gassing barely going 12 rounds.

But anyway, Klitschko is only good because of his size and jab. His jab makes him dictate the pace of the fight in his favor in a slow pace ugly fight. Johnson was one of the best at doing that too, plus he had a decent punch. He'd give to Klitschko at his pace, throw Wlad off rhythm while his face is getting busted open by Johnsons shots. Wlad will gas under the pressure and Johnson gets the late stoppage! Jack Johnson did beat young Sam Langford. He might have ducked him for a 2nd fight but he did easily defeat Sam Langford once pretty easily so he wasn't no scrub like the people that the Klitschko's beat today.
Langford was very green and was outweighed by 30 pounds.

House of Stone
05-18-2011, 05:45 AM
another great white hope lol - man this fight would be about as exciting as watching paint dry but I'd like to see the highlights and get the result all the same ... I see wlad pawing away ineffectually with the jab for 9 or 10 rounds and johnson taking his time and using that vaunted defence of his until all of a sudden late on he lands a stonker out of nowhere and gets the win, after a fight which puts most modern fans at least to sleep.

IronDanHamza
05-18-2011, 08:23 AM
Langford was very green and was outweighed by 30 pounds.

A green Langford who wasn't a heavyweight is probably a better win than any of Wlad's wins.

Just throwing that out there.

studentofthegam
05-18-2011, 08:46 AM
Wlad. Too much size and too much jab. Klit would get on that bike and never get off. Johnson lands some good shots but Wlad survives for a moderate decision.

Barn
05-18-2011, 09:04 AM
A green Langford who wasn't a heavyweight is probably a better win than any of Wlad's wins.

Just throwing that out there.
Fair enough :lol1:

Barn
05-18-2011, 09:04 AM
Wlad. Too much size and too much jab. Klit would get on that bike and never get off. Johnson lands some good shots but Wlad survives for a moderate decision.
You do realise to "go on the bike" you need a certain degree of stamina?

New England
05-18-2011, 09:29 AM
A green Langford who wasn't a heavyweight is probably a better win than any of Wlad's wins.

Just throwing that out there.



greatness of ledger and favorability in a head to head match are very different animals


wladimir probably wins this one with modern rules


we have to consider the fact that johnson was a giant in his day
his style depended on it and being the tall man and leaning on his opponent and wearing him down
or being able to be more effective at distance and either catching punches and moving back and to angles
or smothering an opponent completely

he's going to have to work unbelievably hard if he wants to get physical and bully a man who would dwarf him by over fifty lbs and a half a foot, so i think he'd try and stay outside and pick off shots and score points
horrible prospect considering how hard and long klitschko's jab is
even if he has trouble putting the right hand behind it

in his time, johnson was a giant. his nickname was the galveston giant.
is it pure coincidence that he was not only bigger than everybody else, but beating them in boxing matches at HW? i think not. even his skills and defensive base were based upon his terrific size (and believe me i'm not degrading the fighter, i'm merely trying to illustrate that his greatest advantage and the likely root of his greatness would not be a factor)

wladimir is 6'7", 250, with 81 inches of reach

johnson was just 6'1", weighed 185 in his prime, and had a 74 inch reach
if he boxed today he'd be a light heavyweight. if you're regularly weighing 185 for a same day weigh in and you're fighting many times a year you can easily weigh 175 for a friday weigh in
as with many historic HW's, johnson would likely at least begin his career as a LHW

the galveston giant would be a TINY hw today.



i'm thinking that with modern rules,
and modern judges and a modern ref,
10 oz grant gloves,
24 foot ring,
johnson would be hard pressed to win seven or more rounds in a 12 round fight
or 8 or more in a 15 round fight



all that being said johnson could certainly find a way to catch wladimir with something funky in a clinch. wladimir's physical advantages stop at his chin and ticker. he doesn't react well to punches when he's hit today
and in the past when he's been folded like a napkin
or on the way in
or after they break

and wladimir could detonate johnson with one hard punch with either hand (when he actually throws them, hence why i think the fight goes the distance)
because in all honesty, and i know we like to think otherwise, nobody alive hit like wladimir during johnson's time.
he'd knock a five foot ten, 178 lb "HW" clean across the ring. even if they remained conscious, he'd literally knock them across the ring.

he's six and a half feet tall and is 250 lbs in fighting shape and a gifted athlete
his jab would feel like the right hands of most of johnson's opponents


but i don't think the fight would end in a stoppage


wladimir in the most boring win of his career. pretty one sided UD
and that's saying something, considering he's about as dull as they get

Barn
05-18-2011, 10:36 AM
greatness of ledger and favorability in a head to head match are very different animals


wladimir probably wins this one with modern rules


we have to consider the fact that johnson was a giant in his day
his style depended on it and being the tall man and leaning on his opponent and wearing him down
or being able to be more effective at distance and either catching punches and moving back and to angles
or smothering an opponent completely

he's going to have to work unbelievably hard if he wants to get physical and bully a man who would dwarf him by over fifty lbs and a half a foot, so i think he'd try and stay outside and pick off shots and score points
horrible prospect considering how hard and long klitschko's jab is
even if he has trouble putting the right hand behind it

in his time, johnson was a giant. his nickname was the galveston giant.
is it pure coincidence that he was not only bigger than everybody else, but beating them in boxing matches at HW? i think not. even his skills and defensive base were based upon his terrific size (and believe me i'm not degrading the fighter, i'm merely trying to illustrate that his greatest advantage and the likely root of his greatness would not be a factor)

wladimir is 6'7", 250, with 81 inches of reach

johnson was just 6'1", weighed 185 in his prime, and had a 74 inch reach
if he boxed today he'd be a light heavyweight. if you're regularly weighing 185 for a same day weigh in and you're fighting many times a year you can easily weigh 175 for a friday weigh in
as with many historic HW's, johnson would likely at least begin his career as a LHW

the galveston giant would be a TINY hw today.



i'm thinking that with modern rules,
and modern judges and a modern ref,
10 oz grant gloves,
24 foot ring,
johnson would be hard pressed to win seven or more rounds in a 12 round fight
or 8 or more in a 15 round fight



all that being said johnson could certainly find a way to catch wladimir with something funky in a clinch. wladimir's physical advantages stop at his chin and ticker. he doesn't react well to punches when he's hit today
and in the past when he's been folded like a napkin
or on the way in
or after they break

and wladimir could detonate johnson with one hard punch with either hand (when he actually throws them, hence why i think the fight goes the distance)
because in all honesty, and i know we like to think otherwise, nobody alive hit like wladimir during johnson's time.
he'd knock a five foot ten, 178 lb "HW" clean across the ring. even if they remained conscious, he'd literally knock them across the ring.

he's six and a half feet tall and is 250 lbs in fighting shape and a gifted athlete
his jab would feel like the right hands of most of johnson's opponents


but i don't think the fight would end in a stoppage


wladimir in the most boring win of his career. pretty one sided UD
and that's saying something, considering he's about as dull as they get
I would say Langford hit harder than Wladimir.

Holtol
05-18-2011, 10:48 AM
Johnson would know Wlads advantages and disadvantages all to well for Wlad to win. Wladimir is not the same kind of fighter as Johnson I doubt Wlad would have even dared step into the ring back in Johnson's day. He would have perfered to put his education to work I think.

Johnson simply makes Wladimir move his weight around the ring forcing him to stop and start with feints and punches. I think Johnson knocks him out in the late rounds when Wladimir is tired. Wladimir in his tiredness starts falling in, gets caught by an uppercutt, gets knocked out.

New England
05-18-2011, 10:49 AM
I would say Langford hit harder than Wladimir.

respectfully i would disagree haha

IronDanHamza
05-18-2011, 11:14 AM
greatness of ledger and favorability in a head to head match are very different animals


wladimir probably wins this one with modern rules


we have to consider the fact that johnson was a giant in his day
his style depended on it and being the tall man and leaning on his opponent and wearing him down
or being able to be more effective at distance and either catching punches and moving back and to angles
or smothering an opponent completely

he's going to have to work unbelievably hard if he wants to get physical and bully a man who would dwarf him by over fifty lbs and a half a foot, so i think he'd try and stay outside and pick off shots and score points
horrible prospect considering how hard and long klitschko's jab is
even if he has trouble putting the right hand behind it

in his time, johnson was a giant. his nickname was the galveston giant.
is it pure coincidence that he was not only bigger than everybody else, but beating them in boxing matches at HW? i think not. even his skills and defensive base were based upon his terrific size (and believe me i'm not degrading the fighter, i'm merely trying to illustrate that his greatest advantage and the likely root of his greatness would not be a factor)

wladimir is 6'7", 250, with 81 inches of reach

johnson was just 6'1", weighed 185 in his prime, and had a 74 inch reach
if he boxed today he'd be a light heavyweight. if you're regularly weighing 185 for a same day weigh in and you're fighting many times a year you can easily weigh 175 for a friday weigh in
as with many historic HW's, johnson would likely at least begin his career as a LHW

the galveston giant would be a TINY hw today.



i'm thinking that with modern rules,
and modern judges and a modern ref,
10 oz grant gloves,
24 foot ring,
johnson would be hard pressed to win seven or more rounds in a 12 round fight
or 8 or more in a 15 round fight



all that being said johnson could certainly find a way to catch wladimir with something funky in a clinch. wladimir's physical advantages stop at his chin and ticker. he doesn't react well to punches when he's hit today
and in the past when he's been folded like a napkin
or on the way in
or after they break

and wladimir could detonate johnson with one hard punch with either hand (when he actually throws them, hence why i think the fight goes the distance)
because in all honesty, and i know we like to think otherwise, nobody alive hit like wladimir during johnson's time.
he'd knock a five foot ten, 178 lb "HW" clean across the ring. even if they remained conscious, he'd literally knock them across the ring.

he's six and a half feet tall and is 250 lbs in fighting shape and a gifted athlete
his jab would feel like the right hands of most of johnson's opponents


but i don't think the fight would end in a stoppage


wladimir in the most boring win of his career. pretty one sided UD
and that's saying something, considering he's about as dull as they get

I wasn't making a pick off that reasoning. Just responding to Barn's comment.

Personally, I probably pick Wlad. Considering the good point you made about Johnson's usual size advantage.

Then again, I remember how woefully bad Wladimir Klitschko's inside game is. Size advantage of not Johnson would win the inside battle.

But all in all I would probably pick Klitschko to beat him.

Good breakdown, though. You made some good points.

Jim Jeffries
05-18-2011, 11:38 AM
I would say Langford hit harder than Wladimir.

The green 156 pound version (same day weigh in) that Johnson fought?

As far as Johnson and W. Klitschko goes, both guys like to clinch and lean on their opponents, I'd give the edge here to Wlad. Wlad probably won't be able to land much besides the jab, so I'm pretty sure it goes the distance. The longer the fight, the more it favors Johnson. But in a 12 rounder, I'd favor Wlad.

Having so little footage of Johnson and given the diminutive size of most of his opponents, makes this one difficult though.

Barn
05-18-2011, 11:45 AM
The green 156 pound version (same day weigh in) that Johnson fought?

As far as Johnson and W. Klitschko goes, both guys like to clinch and lean on their opponents, I'd give the edge here to Wlad. Wlad probably won't be able to land much besides the jab, so I'm pretty sure it goes the distance. The longer the fight, the more it favors Johnson. But in a 12 rounder, I'd favor Wlad.

Having so little footage of Johnson and given the diminutive size of most of his opponents, makes this one difficult though.
No he just stated "at that time." ie: 1900-1920

Terry A
05-18-2011, 12:39 PM
I would say Langford hit harder than Wladimir.

I gotta respectfully disagree with that also.

Barnburner, you are an elite member / poster here. One of the more knowledgable fellas. But I gotta ask you something.....Are you just being silly & pulling our leg? Maybe just horseing around a little? Slow day at the forums & all?

We can put men on the moon, split an atom that nobody can even see, talk thousands of miles away into wireless cell phones with each other.....Why can't them scientists make us a time-machine for boxing matches?????

:D
One of the firsts things I would do is have ol' Sam hit one of them pads like Ivan Drago did & get a register on his impact. Then, I would have the big Klitschko hit the same pad. Before this test, I would mortgage my house & bet it all that K hits harder then L.
:D

In all seriousness, some of the brethren here say they don't think KO%'s means anything. I am one who does. Every other major sport issues stats and %'s and they're accepted. KO% means something, or else, they wouldn't be talked about or mentioned so often in fights. It's not THE best way of judgeing who hat the bigger punch, but it is one way. That being said, Langford is about as big as Dwight M. Qawi & has a lifetime KO% of 40.82%.* Klitschko is at 84.48%.* And K is getting these KO's over men in the 250-287 lb range!

I just can't figure out why the K's don't garner more respect......

* From BoxRec. Which although sometimes is inaccurate, more times then not, it IS accurate.

Steak
05-18-2011, 01:13 PM
frankly, I dont understand how a 150lb Langford hits harder or is a that much of a threat at HW(to HW champion calibur opponents).

not to mention Langford and Wladimir arent even comparable stylistically. hell, theyre like opposites.

Reality is that Johnson almost always used his size to win fights. This defense that people keep going on about mostly consisted of him grabbing the smaller opponent and preventing them from attacking. this worked great for him most the time. But Wladimir would love that, he does it all the time too. and he is the bigger and stronger of the two, so he likely wouldnt be manhandled in the clinch. and I simply dont see Johnson landing his short right uppercut in the clinch on someone as big and grabby as Wladimir.

in a 12 round fight, nothing suggests a Johnson win. who did he beat that was anything like Wladimir? a retired Jeffries who hadnt foght in over 6 years and was dragged out of retirement for racist reasons? Johnson took 15 rounds to do him in even then, and if you dont put pressure on Wladimir then he will give you absolute hell, he eats boxers for breakfast most the time.
Do you think Johnson has the better jab? or more power than Wladimir?

Ive always said that size isnt everything, and just being bigger doesnt make you the bigger puncher magically. But Wladimir isnt just a big heavyweight, the guy can crack. He has some nasty KOs, and one of the best jabs of HW history.

Terry A
05-18-2011, 01:54 PM
frankly, I dont understand how a 150lb Langford hits harder or is a that much of a threat at HW(to HW champion calibur opponents).

not to mention Langford and Wladimir arent even comparable stylistically. hell, theyre like opposites.

Reality is that Johnson almost always used his size to win fights. This defense that people keep going on about mostly consisted of him grabbing the smaller opponent and preventing them from attacking. this worked great for him most the time. But Wladimir would love that, he does it all the time too. and he is the bigger and stronger of the two, so he likely wouldnt be manhandled in the clinch. and I simply dont see Johnson landing his short right uppercut in the clinch on someone as big and grabby as Wladimir.

in a 12 round fight, nothing suggests a Johnson win. who did he beat that was anything like Wladimir? a retired Jeffries who hadnt foght in over 6 years and was dragged out of retirement for racist reasons? Johnson took 15 rounds to do him in even then, and if you dont put pressure on Wladimir then he will give you absolute hell, he eats boxers for breakfast most the time.
Do you think Johnson has the better jab? or more power than Wladimir?

Ive always said that size isnt everything, and just being bigger doesnt make you the bigger puncher magically. But Wladimir isnt just a big heavyweight, the guy can crack. He has some nasty KOs, and one of the best jabs of HW history.

Exactly right.

The Smash
05-18-2011, 02:25 PM
Wlad might have a shot at winning now.....since Johnson's been dead for about 70 years, though that makes him more "live" than any of Wlad's pathetic opponents.

Poet

He's not dead, it's a clever ruse to disguise the fact that he is ducking Martinez.

Terry A
05-18-2011, 02:31 PM
Here's something else about this match up.....

Some of the guys are picking JJ because of his defensive prowness, even though Klitschko is 6 inches bigger & 40 lbs heavier. Ok.

Then, staying with this thinking, take a Benny Leonard, for example. 5'5", 135 lbs. Great defense, not a big threat to get somebody outta there before the end of the fight.

Who here would take Benny Leonard vs a 5'11, 175 lb lightheavyweight, say along the lines of a Matthew Saad Muhammad. A great lightweight vs a very good, not necessarily great, lightheavyweight?

Or how about Willie Pep. 5'5", 126 lbs. Anyone like his side against a Nigel Benn or a Gerald McClelland? 5-6 inches and 40 lbs is all that is.....

How about Roberto Duran at 135 vs Bob Foster at 175? It's only 4o lbs but it's a BIG 40 lbs.

Same logic has to hold true if you like the little, less heavy handed JJ over Klitschko.

Obama
05-18-2011, 03:00 PM
Here's something else about this match up.....

Some of the guys are picking JJ because of his defensive prowness, even though Klitschko is 6 inches bigger & 40 lbs heavier. Ok.

Then, staying with this thinking, take a Benny Leonard, for example. 5'5", 135 lbs. Great defense, not a big threat to get somebody outta there before the end of the fight.

Who here would take Benny Leonard vs a 5'11, 175 lb lightheavyweight, say along the lines of a Matthew Saad Muhammad. A great lightweight vs a very good, not necessarily great, lightheavyweight?

Or how about Willie Pep. 5'5", 126 lbs. Anyone like his side against a Nigel Benn or a Gerald McClelland? 5-6 inches and 40 lbs is all that is.....

How about Roberto Duran at 135 vs Bob Foster at 175? It's only 4o lbs but it's a BIG 40 lbs.

Same logic has to hold true if you like the little, less heavy handed JJ over Klitschko.

No it does not. There is a reason the weight divisions get further and further apart as you move up, and why everything over 200 today (175 then) is Heavyweight. You gotta adjust your numbers. At the very least go by the % increase in body mass, don't just stack on 40 lbs :rofl:

Barn
05-18-2011, 04:09 PM
Here's something else about this match up.....

Some of the guys are picking JJ because of his defensive prowness, even though Klitschko is 6 inches bigger & 40 lbs heavier. Ok.

Then, staying with this thinking, take a Benny Leonard, for example. 5'5", 135 lbs. Great defense, not a big threat to get somebody outta there before the end of the fight.

Who here would take Benny Leonard vs a 5'11, 175 lb lightheavyweight, say along the lines of a Matthew Saad Muhammad. A great lightweight vs a very good, not necessarily great, lightheavyweight?

Or how about Willie Pep. 5'5", 126 lbs. Anyone like his side against a Nigel Benn or a Gerald McClelland? 5-6 inches and 40 lbs is all that is.....

How about Roberto Duran at 135 vs Bob Foster at 175? It's only 4o lbs but it's a BIG 40 lbs.

Same logic has to hold true if you like the little, less heavy handed JJ over Klitschko.
Dude it's a ratio not 40Ibs

10Ib guine pig vs 50Ib Jack Russel is x5 but, still 40Ibs.

New England
05-18-2011, 04:29 PM
I wasn't making a pick off that reasoning. Just responding to Barn's comment.

Personally, I probably pick Wlad. Considering the good point you made about Johnson's usual size advantage.

Then again, I remember how woefully bad Wladimir Klitschko's inside game is. Size advantage of not Johnson would win the inside battle.

But all in all I would probably pick Klitschko to beat him.

Good breakdown, though. You made some good points.


thanks bro

i knew what you were goin for when mentioning johnson's ledger (that you were merely bringing light to the reality of the greatness of their respective careers and not necessarily using it as evidence for who would win in a H2h)

you can probably cut a one or two year year slice of his resume in his prime and find better wins than all of wladimir's career
and probably for many different sets of years
same with some other great HW's

New England
05-18-2011, 04:31 PM
Dude it's a ratio not 40Ibs

10Ib guine pig vs 50Ib Jack Russel is x5 but, still 40Ibs.




terrier KO2


safe money right there :)

Ziggy Stardust
05-18-2011, 05:00 PM
No it does not. There is a reason the weight divisions get further and further apart as you move up, and why everything over 200 today (175 then) is Heavyweight. You gotta adjust your numbers. At the very least go by the % increase in body mass, don't just stack on 40 lbs :rofl:

To put it simply, a 10 pound difference in weight means a hell of a lot more to someone who weighs 120 pounds then it does to someone who weighs 220 pounds.

Poet

BigStereotype
05-18-2011, 05:21 PM
To put it simply, a 10 pound difference in weight means a hell of a lot more to someone who weighs 120 pounds then it does to someone who weighs 220 pounds.

Poet

This is true but we're looking at like a 60 pound advantage for Klitschko. There's a point where size does start to matter...that extra weight would be a huge advantage in a clinch and both guys love to wrestle. Now I know you're a huge detractor of Wlad's and I was actually really interested in your take on the strategy of the fight.

Ziggy Stardust
05-18-2011, 05:41 PM
This is true but we're looking at like a 60 pound advantage for Klitschko. There's a point where size does start to matter...that extra weight would be a huge advantage in a clinch and both guys love to wrestle. Now I know you're a huge detractor of Wlad's and I was actually really interested in your take on the strategy of the fight.

Since when does Wlad like to wrestle? He stays on the end of his reach all fight long and pecks with his jab with an occasional right thrown in. The only reason he gets away with it is because today's Heavies are either clueless as to how or have no inclination to get inside Wlad's reach advantage. That's not something Johnson is going to have an issue with. Wlad has neither the footwork nor the speed to prevent someone from getting inside if they know what they're doing and are serious about doing it. Hell, Ibragimov got inside by accident and what did he do? He stepped right back out instead of taking advantage of it ffs. I could easily see Johnson picking off Wlad's jab (Johnson was a master at parrying), getting inside the reach, and putting some serious hurt on the chinny Wlad. I could see Johnson having problems with Vitali (who actually DOES use is weight on the inside), but not with Wlad.

Poet

Scott9945
05-18-2011, 08:55 PM
Since when does Wlad like to wrestle? He stays on the end of his reach all fight long and pecks with his jab with an occasional right thrown in. The only reason he gets away with it is because today's Heavies are either clueless as to how or have no inclination to get inside Wlad's reach advantage. That's not something Johnson is going to have an issue with. Wlad has neither the footwork nor the speed to prevent someone from getting inside if they know what they're doing and are serious about doing it. Hell, Ibragimov got inside by accident and what did he do? He stepped right back out instead of taking advantage of it ffs. I could easily see Johnson picking off Wlad's jab (Johnson was a master at parrying), getting inside the reach, and putting some serious hurt on the chinny Wlad. I could see Johnson having problems with Vitali (who actually DOES use is weight on the inside), but not with Wlad.

Poet

I'm pretty sure that most of his opponents would testify that Wladimir does a hell of a lot more with that jab than peck. He dominates with it.

Mannie Phresh
05-18-2011, 09:00 PM
I was thinking about this fight today, wondering how it would play out. In all likelihood, it would be a snoozer but it could be an interesting tactical fight. I'm kinda torn on who would win. Johnson is the greater heavyweight with the better resume, but Wlad is no walk in the park and Johnson would have trouble landing that uppercut on a chin that's thirty-two feet in the air. What do you guys think?

better resume? i think johnson is a greater heavyweight but better resume? thats hate bro.

Mannie Phresh
05-18-2011, 09:02 PM
hold on ill settle this on fight night champ. lol

Ziggy Stardust
05-18-2011, 09:34 PM
I'm pretty sure that most of his opponents would testify that Wladimir does a hell of a lot more with that jab than peck. He dominates with it.

Wlad paws with that jab. Watch Larry Holmes or Sonny Liston to see a real Heavyweight jab.

Poet

Mannie Phresh
05-18-2011, 09:40 PM
i won in the 6th 6 kd's on vlad he got 2 on me. 4 kd's in the 6th. jacks better acording to fight night. honestly i fell vlad would be way to much for johnson but i rate johnson higher.

Terry A
05-18-2011, 10:12 PM
Dude it's a ratio not 40Ibs

10Ib guine pig vs 50Ib Jack Russel is x5 but, still 40Ibs.

You lost me. I was horrific at math, so maybe it's me. What do you mean by ratio? At what weight is a 40 lb weight advantage not an advantage???

And what kind of ratio is big enough to matter? I don't get where you're going with this.

5-6 inches & 40 lbs is not the same in any division other then heavyweight?

"Dude", I been a fan of boxing since 1971. And I never heard of this kind of equations. Again though, maybe it's me.

Barn
05-19-2011, 04:35 AM
You lost me. I was horrific at math, so maybe it's me. What do you mean by ratio? At what weight is a 40 lb weight advantage not an advantage???

And what kind of ratio is big enough to matter? I don't get where you're going with this.

5-6 inches & 40 lbs is not the same in any division other then heavyweight?

"Dude", I been a fan of boxing since 1971. And I never heard of this kind of equations. Again though, maybe it's me.
No because if you have a mass of 10kg and someone has 5kg more. Making a ratio of
10:15 or simplified 2:3.

If you have a mass of 195kg and add another 5kg. That's 195:200 or 39:40 which is much less of a difference than 2:3. So the advantage is much less.

See what I'm getting at you need to use the smaller mans mass over the heavier mans to get a percentage of the weight. Or do it using ratios like me.

edit: Seen your karma comment, it's probably the way I'm explaining it. I've always been bad at explaining things.

The_Demon
05-19-2011, 04:55 AM
better resume? i think johnson is a greater heavyweight but better resume? thats hate bro.

Who has Wlad beat that makes his resume anything special?

IronDanHamza
05-19-2011, 09:59 AM
hold on ill settle this on fight night champ. lol

What you mean the game where Wlad can stand toe to toe trading punces with Sonny Liston and Mike Tyson and win?

The game where you can knock out Duran in the first round with Pernell Whitaker with a single punch?

Or the game where Oscar De La Hoya has a higher rating than Sugar Ray Leonard?

The game is a unrealistic piece of sh*t.

BigStereotype
05-19-2011, 11:54 AM
What you mean the game where Wlad can stand toe to toe trading punces with Sonny Liston and Mike Tyson and win?

The game where you can knock out Duran in the first round with Pernell Whitaker with a single punch?

Or the game where Oscar De La Hoya has a higher rating than Sugar Ray Leonard?

The game is a unrealistic piece of sh*t.

You have to do a lot of fooling around with the sliders, ratings and tendencies, but once you get all that stuff right you can get a really enjoyable semi-realistic boxing game. The engine is definitely promising.

Ziggy Stardust
05-19-2011, 11:56 AM
You have to do a lot of fooling around with the sliders, ratings and tendencies, but once you get all that stuff right you can get a really enjoyable semi-realistic boxing game. The engine is definitely promising.

I'll stick with Title Bout :p

BigStereotype
05-19-2011, 12:02 PM
I'll stick with Title Bout :p

Haha I already shelled out the 60 bucks for FNC, I don't want to go another 35 deep for Title Bout. I'm in college, I'm poor :lol1:

Ziggy Stardust
05-19-2011, 12:06 PM
only difference is when I was in college all the computers were DOS based :hah9:

Gawd.....I was just thinking about how you couldn't even get a good football or baseball simulator with decent accuracy back then :nonono:

Poet

IronDanHamza
05-19-2011, 12:46 PM
You have to do a lot of fooling around with the sliders, ratings and tendencies, but once you get all that stuff right you can get a really enjoyable semi-realistic boxing game. The engine is definitely promising.

I whole heartedly disagree.

You can mess around with until the end of time, the game is so far from being realistic it's a joke.

I hear that too much about the engine. The engine is promising, absolutely. But Brizzo and those morons down at EA who describe Gatti-Ward as "Not really a real sim kind of fight" (WHAT?) are just giving us half-ass unrealistic games knowing that people will keep buying because the engine is 'promising'.

They could give us so much more with that engine, they KNOW that gamers know this.

When I play a Boxing 'sim' I don't want to be frozen when I get countered. I don't want to be able to knock out Jake Lamotta with Sergio Mora. (On round 4 I ko'd him with Pauli Malignaggi weighing 140Lbs!) I don't want it to be literally impossible to throw a double jab because the punch delay is THAT slow. I don't want the blocking system to be utterly random. And I certainly don't want to stand toe to toe with Sonny Liston when I'm Wladmir Klitschko and train punches and win, with ease! (I did this for experimental purposes)

Like i said, in terms of realistic boxing experiences, the game is an utter piece of sh*t.

IronDanHamza
05-19-2011, 12:49 PM
Oh, and an inside game would be nice also. Since it's a Boxing game and all.

Along with many other things.

Barn
05-19-2011, 01:28 PM
Oh, and an inside game would be nice also. Since it's a Boxing game and all.

Along with many other things.
I did use it as a sim for the VK vs Marciano thread.

VK won every round except the second when Rock got a KD, then they exhanged knockdowns in the ninth with Vitali not getting up from his.

I thought that was quite accurate.

Barn
05-19-2011, 01:34 PM
Oh, and an inside game would be nice also. Since it's a Boxing game and all.

Along with many other things.
You also completely forgot about the ratings... Mozons jab rating of 9/20 and his straight 12/20.

Oh and SRR having a 20 chin with LaMotta a 20.

Here's another one, Sonny Liston 82 overall? When Vitali is 83?

Hagler best punch is his right upppercut? I always thought it was his right hook, obviously not.

Manny Pacquiao with a 20 straight 20 left hook both head and body, 20 heart and 19 chin? A greater rating than Sugar Ray Leonard?

The MW SRL>WW SRL?

Jack Johnsons staright>his uppercut?

Butterbean with maxed out left and right hooks?

Duran with poor body punching stats?

There are many more huge flaws.

BigStereotype
05-19-2011, 01:45 PM
You also completely forgot about the ratings... Mozons jab rating of 9/20 and his straight 12/20.

Oh and SRR having a 20 chin with LaMotta a 20.

Here's another one, Sonny Liston 82 overall? When Vitali is 83?

Hagler best punch is his right upppercut? I always thought it was his right hook, obviously not.

Manny Pacquiao with a 20 straight 20 left hook both head and body, 20 heart and 19 chin? A greater rating than Sugar Ray Leonard?

The MW SRL>WW SRL?

Jack Johnsons staright>his uppercut?

Butterbean with maxed out left and right hooks?

Duran with poor body punching stats?

There are many more huge flaws.

All that stuff is nuts but I enjoy tinkering with ratings and tendencies as much as actually playing the game, so I don't mind.

IronDanHamza
05-19-2011, 01:48 PM
I did use it as a sim for the VK vs Marciano thread.

VK won every round except the second when Rock got a KD, then they exhanged knockdowns in the ninth with Vitali not getting up from his.

I thought that was quite accurate.

I did one too.

Robinson Vs Pacquaio at WW.

Pacquaio KO 4. One punch.

I thought that wasn't very accurate.

Barn
05-19-2011, 03:50 PM
I did one too.

Robinson Vs Pacquaio at WW.

Pacquaio KO 4. One punch.

I thought that wasn't very accurate.
I don't think that's very accurate either :lol1:

I think it would have been MW Robinson as well, making it even more inaccurate.

Joe Calzaghe vs Marvin Hagler

Hagler KO12

I thought that was quite accurate.

IronDanHamza
05-19-2011, 03:53 PM
I don't think that's very accurate either :lol1:

I think it would have been MW Robinson as well, making it even more inaccurate.

Joe Calzaghe vs Marvin Hagler

Hagler KO12

I thought that was quite accurate.

Ahh yes, that was it.

I knocked out Jake Lamotta cold with Sergio Mora.

I can do this all day :lol1:

Chex31
05-19-2011, 09:18 PM
You also completely forgot about the ratings... Mozons jab rating of 9/20 and his straight 12/20.

Oh and SRR having a 20 chin with LaMotta a 20.

Here's another one, Sonny Liston 82 overall? When Vitali is 83?

Hagler best punch is his right upppercut? I always thought it was his right hook, obviously not.

Manny Pacquiao with a 20 straight 20 left hook both head and body, 20 heart and 19 chin? A greater rating than Sugar Ray Leonard?

The MW SRL>WW SRL?

Jack Johnsons staright>his uppercut?

Butterbean with maxed out left and right hooks?

Duran with poor body punching stats?

There are many more huge flaws.


Have to tweak around with quite a bit of fighters stats on FNC, and it's a pain in the ass. I mean they had Liston's jab at like 12/20 or some stupid ****. They overrated Bradley.

BigStereotype
05-19-2011, 09:26 PM
Have to tweak around with quite a bit of fighters stats on FNC, and it's a pain in the ass. I mean they had Liston's jab at like 12/20 or some stupid ****. They overrated Bradley.

So hard. I :rofl:'d my ass off when I saw that Timmah was rated higher than Monzon.

New England
05-19-2011, 11:46 PM
lol at this delusional moron.

The history section is a joke.




this is actually where you find the greatest concentration of actual boxing knowledge and talk on this website
we're lucky enough to have very little clutter about "pac not taking da test!"
and "the *****'s" and the like
the people here generally know ample amounts of boxing, or are hopefully at least willing and trying to learn about it.

nobody knows everything about boxing
this is where you go to sharpen up

don't let the door hit you on the way out

BigStereotype
05-20-2011, 01:26 AM
You old school nuthuggers are totally delusional.

Either Klitschko destroys Johnson.

If you can't tell me who Johnson beat to win his title (without google), gtfo my thread. I won't hold my breath.

$BloodyNate$
05-20-2011, 01:37 AM
lol at this delusional moron.


I'm sorry, I laughed my ass off at this post at the irony but truthfulness.

That statement was true, don't agree with the the 1st about Langord's power though. A blind Langford KTFO out of Tiger Flowers when he was damn nearly blind. That's an ATG middleweight Langford did that too. Don't tell me he don't hit as hard as Wladimir. Especially when Wlad got gang raped by that little fairy Purity.

Ziggy Stardust
05-20-2011, 02:08 AM
I'm sorry, I laughed my ass off at this post at the irony but truthfulness.

That statement was true, don't agree with the the 1st about Langord's power though. A blind Langford KTFO out of Tiger Flowers when he was damn nearly blind. That's an ATG middleweight Langford did that too. Don't tell me he don't hit as hard as Wladimir. Especially when Wlad got gang raped by that little fairy Purity.

:rofl9: :rofl9: I'd green you for that but I've hit you with green a bit too recently to give you more :rofl9: :rofl9:

Poet

DeepSleep
05-20-2011, 02:50 AM
Johnson would get beat fairly handily by either Klitschko in my book. The sport has evolved quite a ways since Johnson was competing.

That said it's not really all that fair to put a guy from the early 1900's in the ring vs. a current champ. Nutrition,medical knowledge along with the sport evolving would leave guys from the early 1900's in big trouble.

The_Demon
05-20-2011, 03:59 AM
Johnson would get beat fairly handily by either Klitschko in my book. The sport has evolved quite a ways since Johnson was competing.

That said it's not really all that fair to put a guy from the early 1900's in the ring vs. a current champ. Nutrition,medical knowledge along with the sport evolving would leave guys from the early 1900's in big trouble.

Evolved in what way? Yes the guys are bigger now but if anything the heavyweights in the division has gone backwards in terms of ring knowledge and endurance.Nutrition and Medical knowledge wouldnt help Wlad if he faced somebody that actually knew how too fight

Barn
05-20-2011, 07:03 AM
Ahh yes, that was it.

I knocked out Jake Lamotta cold with Sergio Mora.

I can do this all day :lol1:
Hagler vs Monzon - Hagler TKO13?

IronDanHamza
05-20-2011, 11:28 AM
Hagler vs Monzon - Hagler TKO13?

:lol1: Trying to be subtle here are we?

This result confirms how unrealistic the game is, actually!

:D

IronDanHamza
05-20-2011, 11:30 AM
Hagler is a slugger on FNC anyway.

Play against him as CPU, he is an all out slugger. Fights nothing like Hagler.

Another reason why the game is a joke.

Barn
05-20-2011, 11:30 AM
:lol1: Trying to be subtle here are we?

This result confirms how unrealistic the game is, actually!

:D
WAR HAGLER :lol1:

WAR REALISTIC RESULT!

No but, seriously I'm running out of semi-decent results here can you forfeit please :D

Barn
05-20-2011, 11:31 AM
Hagler is a slugger on FNC anyway.

Play against him as CPU, he is an all out slugger. Fights nothing like Hagler.

Another reason why the game is a joke.
Chavez is a master boxer in that game as well.

IronDanHamza
05-20-2011, 11:43 AM
Chavez is a master boxer in that game as well.

As is Shane Mosley :lol1:

I was getting soundly outboxed at times by Chavez whenn I was Whitaker (LW Vs. WW).

Duran is an all out slugger as well, fights very little like Duran.

Or pretty much anyone.

I want to see a game where Ray Leoanrd throws a 10 punch combination.

I want to see a game where I can rough people up with duran inside. I want a game where I can actually feint!!

I want a game where I can actually use angles

I want a game where you can get a flash knockdown without getting hurt.

I want an inside game.

I want accidental headbutts.

I want to be able to work my cuts in the corner.

I want Hopkins to foul me in the clinch because he can see the ref is blind to it due to his positioning.

I want a prime Roy Jones and prime pernell Whitaker to be hard to hit.

I want Jake Lamotta to be impossible to knock out cold.

I could go on and on and on.

I just want the game that's supposed to be a sim to be realistic, that's all.

Barn
05-20-2011, 11:44 AM
As is Shane Mosley :lol1:

I was getting soundly outboxed at times by Chavez whenn I was Whitaker (LW Vs. WW).

Duran is an all out slugger as well, fights very little like Duran.

Or pretty much anyone.

I want to see a game where Ray Leoanrd throws a 10 punch combination.

I want to see a game where I can rough people up with duran inside. I want a game where I can actually feint!!

I want a game where I can actually use angles

I want a game where you can get a flash knockdown without getting hurt.

I want an inside game.

I want accidental headbutts.

I want to be able to work my cuts in the corner.

I want Hopkins to foul me in the clinch because he can see the ref is blind to it due to his positioning.

I want a prime Roy Jones and prime pernell Whitaker to be hard to hit.

I want Jake Lamotta to be impossible to knock out cold.

I could go on and on and on.

I just want the game that's supposed to be a sim to be realistic, that's all.
I was upset when headbutts didn't cause cuts.

House of Stone
05-20-2011, 12:37 PM
"I want Jake Lamotta to be impossible to knock out cold." <<<<----- this btw two questions
1. is FNC any good? I've been thinking of getting it for a while now but was no too impressed with the last few and
2. Is it possible to ban retards like Klit 2011 from posting in this section ... maybe like a "retard test" pops up when you want to post here and if you think Jack Johnson is some white dude who likes ice hockey your prevented from posting your idiot opinions ....

Barn
05-20-2011, 12:39 PM
"I want Jake Lamotta to be impossible to knock out cold." <<<<----- this btw two questions
1. is FNC any good? I've been thinking of getting it for a while now but was no too impressed with the last few and
2. Is it possible to ban retards like Klit 2011 from posting in this section ... maybe like a "retard test" pops up when you want to post here and if you think Jack Johnson is some white dude who likes ice hockey your prevented from posting your idiot opinions ....
Yeah, I think JAB sends a recommendation to BIGPOPPAPUMP, who can ban people. So if you want anyone banned just send JAB a message.

IronDanHamza
05-20-2011, 12:49 PM
"I want Jake Lamotta to be impossible to knock out cold." <<<<----- this btw two questions
1. is FNC any good? I've been thinking of getting it for a while now but was no too impressed with the last few and
2. Is it possible to ban retards like Klit 2011 from posting in this section ... maybe like a "retard test" pops up when you want to post here and if you think Jack Johnson is some white dude who likes ice hockey your prevented from posting your idiot opinions ....

1. No, It's terrible. I would strongly suggest you not to buy it.

2. I'm not sure but people have been banned before so I would ask Jab since he is the Mod of this section.

"Retard test" :lol1:

Barn
05-20-2011, 12:56 PM
1. No, It's terrible. I would strongly suggest you not to buy it.

2. I'm not sure but people have been banned before so I would ask Jab since he is the Mod of this section.

"Retard test" :lol1:
I think the "retard test" is a great idea.

Don't listen to IronDan he's just upset because of the realistic: HAGLER TKO13 MONZON.




























:lol1:

Ziggy Stardust
05-20-2011, 01:01 PM
1. No, It's terrible. I would strongly suggest you not to buy it.

2. I'm not sure but people have been banned before so I would ask Jab since he is the Mod of this section.

"Retard test" :lol1:

JAB has effectively banned a few clear trolls from this section. He simply deletes everything they post :grin9: On the other hand, I think Prinzcessman has been e-blocked from the section by BPP so.....

Poet

IronDanHamza
05-20-2011, 01:09 PM
I think the "retard test" is a great idea.

Don't listen to IronDan he's just upset because of the realistic: HAGLER TKO13 MONZON.




























:lol1:

:lol1:

That only happens because FNC is so unrealistic that Hagler and Monzon CPU Vs. CPU is like watching Ricky Hatton Vs Ricky Hatton all that happens is the two of them brawl non stop for every round until one of them falls over.

That's how terrible the game is. Don't get it.

BigStereotype
05-20-2011, 01:34 PM
:lol1:

That only happens because FNC is so unrealistic that Hagler and Monzon CPU Vs. CPU is like watching Ricky Hatton Vs Ricky Hatton all that happens is the two of them brawl non stop for every round until one of them falls over.

That's how terrible the game is. Don't get it.

TENDENCIES!!

I can't stress how much you have to edit it. Sure, it's not perfect. Accidental fouls and better stamina management would be nice. Some "signature moves" (not just weird haymakers, real techniques and animations) would be good. I.E. the aforementioned Leonard flurries, Mayweather's pull counter, a Fitzsimmons shift...I'd love uniqueness on par with NBA 2k11, but it's still at least another edition away. But the game is still fun to play, provided you take the time to make it just right.

IronDanHamza
05-20-2011, 09:59 PM
TENDENCIES!!

I can't stress how much you have to edit it. Sure, it's not perfect. Accidental fouls and better stamina management would be nice. Some "signature moves" (not just weird haymakers, real techniques and animations) would be good. I.E. the aforementioned Leonard flurries, Mayweather's pull counter, a Fitzsimmons shift...I'd love uniqueness on par with NBA 2k11, but it's still at least another edition away. But the game is still fun to play, provided you take the time to make it just right.

It's not just tendencies, though.

The game on a whole is nothing like Boxing. They call it a sim, I expect a sim. The game is arcady.

That's no excuse, Round 4 SHOULD have been Round 5. EA are more than capable of making what they have now in FNC for Round 4. They are just purposely taking baby steps so they can steal our money knowing we will keep buying their terrible game because we know what the engine is capable of.

It's fun, absolutely. But so is Facebreaker.

Difference is, FNC is supposed to be a sim, so I expect a sim. I don't expect unrealistic gameplay from a Sim game.

EA could have made it to atleast something like 2K11 is now, their engine is amazing.

It doesn't take 2 games with that engine to make the next to nothing progess towards realistic gameplay that they have.

+ Brizzo is actually a moron and knows nothing about Boxing which is most likely why the game is as bad as it is.