View Full Version : Bert Sugar's top 100 of all time


House of Stone
05-17-2011, 11:37 AM
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. Dick Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson


so you guys like lists right? Well mull over this for a while and come back with all the glaring flaws in it ...

SCtrojansbaby
05-17-2011, 11:47 AM
WHERE THE HELL ARE BARRERA and PACQUIAO?!?!?!?!?!?!


I don't see how you can objectively have Leonard and Roy Jones out of the top 20. Thomas Hearns is way too high

fitefanSHO
05-17-2011, 11:48 AM
When did Bert write that?

House of Stone
05-17-2011, 11:51 AM
WHERE THE HELL ARE BARRERA and PACQUIAO?!?!?!?!?!?!


I don't see how you can objectively have Leonard and Roy Jones out of the top 20. Thomas Hearns is way too high

yeah I think bert's biggest problem is he is OBSESSED with the old timers and completely skewed against anybody who's fights can be seen on a colour TV

Barnburner
05-17-2011, 11:53 AM
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
]57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. Dick Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson


so you guys like lists right? Well mull over this for a while and come back with all the glaring flaws in it ...

That was just skimming.

Blue = Too High
Red = too low.

Barnburner
05-17-2011, 11:56 AM
WHERE THE HELL ARE BARRERA and PACQUIAO?!?!?!?!?!?!


I don't see how you can objectively have Leonard and Roy Jones out of the top 20. Thomas Hearns is way too high
Maybe he wasn't including active fighters at the time of writing?

I agree they would be definite entries.

House of Stone
05-17-2011, 11:57 AM
That was just skimming.

Blue = Too High
Red = too low.

Dempsey is waaaay too high you might make an argument for him being number 9 heavyweight maybe ... but personally I think he's cv is too thin even for that

Barnburner
05-17-2011, 12:03 PM
I agree if it's H2H basis then it's a possibility ableit a very small one.

Fitzsimmons at 66 is borderline disgraceful:

He beat his 82,,69,67,62 and I would bet hugely there is others I have missed or not seen on the list.

SCtrojansbaby
05-17-2011, 12:06 PM
Maybe he wasn't including active fighters at the time of writing?

I agree they would be definite entries.


B-Hop is there

House of Stone
05-17-2011, 12:10 PM
B-Hop is there

yeah if bhop is there (which is fine) then barrera and pac should be there .. well at least he got number 1 right imo

Steak
05-17-2011, 12:15 PM
I wouldnt take Berts opinion all that serious. ever. hes said some really ridiculous stuff before, and its more of a celebrity or figurehead than a real historian. He knows his stuff, but his bias and odd comments detracts from his opinion.

NChristo
05-17-2011, 12:35 PM
This list was done back in 2006.

Take what old man Sugar says with a pinch of salt, I never listened to the man said anyway, most of what he comes out with is just silly despite the resources that he has access too.

Barnburner
05-17-2011, 12:37 PM
He doesn't even deserve his fame, true historians people like Henry Hascup who posts here deserve it more than him.

Barnburner
05-17-2011, 12:44 PM
I have ol' Fitz at 10, Ezzard at 5, Langford at 3 with Jofre being a near miss. All these conflicting with Berts list.

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IronDanHamza
05-17-2011, 12:52 PM
I've read this before.

Some very odd choices.

New England
05-17-2011, 03:10 PM
He doesn't even deserve his fame, true historians people like Henry Hascup who posts here deserve it more than him.

edit:
for the record i own the edition of the book from which this list is published
it's called "boxing's greatest fighters"

and of course i don't agree with everything on there
in some cases it's nothing more than a boxing conversation starter for me

but..

sugar has been in the game for decades

before he was a figurehead with a cigar and a hipster cap he was the editor of ring magazine and one of the best beat writers in the history of the sport
he's covered many of the greatest generations of fighters from ringside



now you can argue that he's become a bit more biased because he's working for HBO regularly
but can we knock a man for getting paid?


boxing writers don't make dirt for money.
newspapers are dying, and you better believe their dedicated boxing beat writers are dying out with them (considering the state of the sport.)
most of your favorite writers in the BWAA work dayjobs that have nothing to do with boxing
the ones that do make money from the boxing world usually get paid by private and subjective enterprises (HBO, top rank, etc,) with an agenda
i don't knock the guy in the least for getting paid.
he's probably a grandfather and wants to leave something for his family

SCtrojansbaby
05-17-2011, 04:22 PM
This list was done back in 2006.

Take what old man Sugar says with a pinch of salt, I never listened to the man said anyway, most of what he comes out with is just silly despite the resources that he has access too.

by 2006 Barrera had already established a top 40(at least) resume

RubenSonny
05-17-2011, 06:29 PM
by 2006 Barrera had already established a top 40(at least) resume

No he didn't.

SCtrojansbaby
05-17-2011, 06:32 PM
No he didn't

A+ wins
Morales x2 Hamed

B+ wins
Mckinney Tapia Ayala

New England
05-17-2011, 08:44 PM
by 2006 Barrera had already established a top 40(at least) resume


when i read your posts:

i have trouble figuring out exactly where your biases lie
sometimes i just think you go with the "wrong" side of an argument
marco antonio barrera's not even close to the top 40 in my eyes
you're talking about guys with better wins,
and without such losses (jr jones x2, pacquiao x2, morales, marquez.)


and finally..
what could Felix strum and Zoldt erdei have possibly done to become anybody's favorite fighters?
this i wonder

Scott9945
05-17-2011, 09:24 PM
and finally..
what could Felix strum and Zoldt erdei have possibly done to become anybody's favorite fighters?
this i wonder

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

chiguy91
05-17-2011, 09:42 PM
well, this seems like an opinionated list, let alone one that was written a couple years back....i wonder what his list would look like right now (with active fighters included)