View Full Version : Am Having My Douts With Lennox Lewis's Greatness...


Perfect Plex
05-16-2011, 07:35 PM
By now everyone should no that this isn't a troll thread or anything like that. I like to debate about the history of boxing and boxers. So anyway.....

I was recetnly browsing through the record of Lennon Lewis. No dout Lewis deserves his place in history as a HW. But it got me thinking and douting his greatness. Were I often see him in top 10 HW lists and even hear some the best ever.

But I have my douts with his greatness. Here's why......

-He twice lost his title to men via KO to men who should of never had the belt. McCall was tough and durable but was always dealt when stpped up. Rahman was very ordinary and never really done pre or post Lewis fights. Yet they both managed to brutally KO Lewis in his prime's. I find them losses terrible.

-He had a terrible struggle with Ray Mercer and only managed to win on a Majority decision, and alot actually thought Mercer WON it. Mercer was never really that great as a pro, an old Holmes, and Holyfield dealt with him way better than Lewis did.

-Although he did get robbed, I always thought he should of dominated an ageing Holyfield even better. The second time alot even thought Holyfield had done enough for a draw. Not impressive. Imagine that would of been a 91/92 Evander.

-I don't give him really no credit for his win over Tyson, I feel Tyson just fighting for a paycheck at that point. Some even say thats his best win, which says something to me.

-Although it may not have been his fault, I would of like to see him fight the best of his era in there prime etc Tyson, Holyfiled, Bowe, Moorer, and even a 94 Foreman to.

-I found he had a lucky escape with Vitali Klitschko. I found Vitali was possibly on his way to doing a upset, only for the cuts. He should of gave Vitali a rematch, but instead retired. Which I found very dissapointing.

Lewis was a dominant HW champion and did leave a legacy at the weight. But I must say I question his some of his greatness. When I look into his resume and losses, and his best wins.

In my OPINION I don't feel he breaks into a top 10 HW ATG list.

I rank Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, & Jeffries all higher.

bklynboy
05-16-2011, 07:44 PM
By now everyone should no that this isn't a troll thread or anything like that. I like to debate about the history of boxing and boxers. So anyway.....

I was recetnly browsing through the record of Lennon Lewis. No dout Lewis deserves his place in history as a HW. But it got me thinking and douting his greatness. Were I often see him in top 10 HW lists and even hear some the best ever.

But I have my douts with his greatness. Here's why......

-He twice lost his title to men via KO to men who should of never had the belt. McCall was tough and durable but was always dealt when stpped up. Rahman was very ordinary and never really done pre or post Lewis fights. Yet they both managed to brutally KO Lewis in his prime's. I find them losses terrible.

-He had a terrible struggle with Ray Mercer and only managed to win on a Majority decision, and alot actually thought Mercer WON it. Mercer was never really that great as a pro, an old Holmes, and Holyfield dealt with him way better than Lewis did.

-Although he did get robbed, I always thought he should of dominated an ageing Holyfield even better. The second time alot even thought Holyfield had done enough for a draw. Not impressive. Imagine that would of been a 91/92 Evander.

-I don't give him really no credit for his win over Tyson, I feel Tyson just fighting for a paycheck at that point. Some even say thats his best win, which says something to me.

-Although it may not have been his fault, I would of like to see him fight the best of his era in there prime etc Tyson, Holyfiled, Bowe, Moorer, and even a 94 Foreman to.

-I found he had a lucky escape with Vitali Klitschko. I found Vitali was possibly on his way to doing a upset, only for the cuts. He should of gave Vitali a rematch, but instead retired. Which I found very dissapointing.

Lewis was a dominant HW champion and did leave a legacy at the weight. But I must say I question his some of his greatness. When I look into his resume and losses, and his best wins.

He's nowere near on the same level as Ali & Louis. Marciano, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Johnson, Dempsey, Jeffries, all should rank higher on a HW atg list. And I also feel Tyson was a greater HW.

I have much the same problem with him. He's a likeable man but I have a hard time placing him in the TOP 10.

Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Liston
Ali
Frazier
Foreman

are definitely above him

Wills, Tunney, Schmelling, Marciano, Holmes, Tyson are in competition for the final 3. Most days I would have Marciano and Holmes as definitely better. :-)

With this we have the question of the day - should we downgrade LL to TOP 20 because he would have lost to VK if not for the cut, or should VK be upgraded to TOP 20?

CarlosG815
05-16-2011, 07:56 PM
By now everyone should no that this isn't a troll thread or anything like that. I like to debate about the history of boxing and boxers. So anyway.....

I was recetnly browsing through the record of Lennon Lewis. No dout Lewis deserves his place in history as a HW. But it got me thinking and douting his greatness. Were I often see him in top 10 HW lists and even hear some the best ever.

But I have my douts with his greatness. Here's why......

-He twice lost his title to men via KO to men who should of never had the belt. McCall was tough and durable but was always dealt when stpped up. Rahman was very ordinary and never really done pre or post Lewis fights. Yet they both managed to brutally KO Lewis in his prime's. I find them losses terrible.

-He had a terrible struggle with Ray Mercer and only managed to win on a Majority decision, and alot actually thought Mercer WON it. Mercer was never really that great as a pro, an old Holmes, and Holyfield dealt with him way better than Lewis did.

-Although he did get robbed, I always thought he should of dominated an ageing Holyfield even better. The second time alot even thought Holyfield had done enough for a draw. Not impressive. Imagine that would of been a 91/92 Evander.

-I don't give him really no credit for his win over Tyson, I feel Tyson just fighting for a paycheck at that point. Some even say thats his best win, which says something to me.

-Although it may not have been his fault, I would of like to see him fight the best of his era in there prime etc Tyson, Holyfiled, Bowe, Moorer, and even a 94 Foreman to.

-I found he had a lucky escape with Vitali Klitschko. I found Vitali was possibly on his way to doing a upset, only for the cuts. He should of gave Vitali a rematch, but instead retired. Which I found very dissapointing.

Lewis was a dominant HW champion and did leave a legacy at the weight. But I must say I question his some of his greatness. When I look into his resume and losses, and his best wins.

In my OPINION I don't feel he breaks into a top 10 HW ATG list.

I rank Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, & Jeffries all higher.

Many reputable boxing writers and historians share the same opinion of Lennox Lewis. He doesn't belong anywhere near a top 10 ATG HW list. It's a slap in the face to those who are truly great.

There are many on this forum who love Lennox with a passion. You are going to catch some flack for your opinion. You will see that he has such die hard fans who refuse to acknowledge that he could not continue against McCall, as he is blatantly falling side to side and forward into the ref, yet these die hard fans believe he could have continued. That's borderline nuthugger as far as I'm concerned.

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_jmFXl1sHh0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That would be like myself, a fan of Tyson, arguing that he could have continued against Douglas. Come on, man.

The ref did him a favor by not allowing him to take more unnecessary punishment, as he was defenseless and was in no position to defend himself.

Listen to the ringside commentator who had a great view states that "Lewis falls forward into the referee, and almost pushed the referee over."

You will not find a legitimate case of any ATG heavies being DEMOLISHED inside of a few short rounds as is the case with Lennox on 2 occasions.

$BloodyNate$
05-16-2011, 08:03 PM
I definitely feel you on this. I find it really hard to find set places to rank him, Tyson and Holyfield because they were all very special in their own unique way. I just find it hard to put him top 5 heavyweight because his best wins were Holyfield who wasn't at his best, and Vital who was ahead on the scorecards so theirs a lot of controversy around that fight.

However I do agree when people say Lewis on his best day would be tough for anybody. I just find it hard not to see it as a double standard when Lewis beats past it Holyfield and Tyson, then has a loss to somebody like Rahman, people say he's a top 5 heavyweight, then Rocky beats up past it Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles & Walcott but doesn't get the least bit respect as much as he does.

I mean he can't help what era he could fight in, I'm just saying it's hard to find a set place to rank him and not have a huge problem or debate about it. Very tricky.

JAB5239
05-16-2011, 08:03 PM
By now everyone should no that this isn't a troll thread or anything like that. I like to debate about the history of boxing and boxers. So anyway.....

I was recetnly browsing through the record of Lennon Lewis. No dout Lewis deserves his place in history as a HW. But it got me thinking and douting his greatness. Were I often see him in top 10 HW lists and even hear some the best ever.

But I have my douts with his greatness. Here's why......

-He twice lost his title to men via KO to men who should of never had the belt. McCall was tough and durable but was always dealt when stpped up. Rahman was very ordinary and never really done pre or post Lewis fights. Yet they both managed to brutally KO Lewis in his prime's. I find them losses terrible.

-He had a terrible struggle with Ray Mercer and only managed to win on a Majority decision, and alot actually thought Mercer WON it. Mercer was never really that great as a pro, an old Holmes, and Holyfield dealt with him way better than Lewis did.

-Although he did get robbed, I always thought he should of dominated an ageing Holyfield even better. The second time alot even thought Holyfield had done enough for a draw. Not impressive. Imagine that would of been a 91/92 Evander.

-I don't give him really no credit for his win over Tyson, I feel Tyson just fighting for a paycheck at that point. Some even say thats his best win, which says something to me.

-Although it may not have been his fault, I would of like to see him fight the best of his era in there prime etc Tyson, Holyfiled, Bowe, Moorer, and even a 94 Foreman to.

-I found he had a lucky escape with Vitali Klitschko. I found Vitali was possibly on his way to doing a upset, only for the cuts. He should of gave Vitali a rematch, but instead retired. Which I found very dissapointing.

Lewis was a dominant HW champion and did leave a legacy at the weight. But I must say I question his some of his greatness. When I look into his resume and losses, and his best wins.

In my OPINION I don't feel he breaks into a top 10 HW ATG list.

I rank Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, & Jeffries all higher.

Besides Ali and Louis, every heavyweight can be nit picked and struggled or lost at times in his career. Lewis has a very good resume and beat every fighter he ever faced. Easily a top 10 all time heavyweight in my opinion.

Scott9945
05-16-2011, 08:07 PM
Many reputable boxing writers and historians share the same opinion of Lennox Lewis. He doesn't belong anywhere near a top 10 ATG HW list. It's a slap in the face to those who are truly great.

There are many on this forum who love Lennox with a passion. You are going to catch some flack for your opinion. You will see that he has such die hard fans who refuse to acknowledge that he could not continue against McCall, as he is blatantly falling side to side and forward into the ref, yet these die hard fans believe he could have continued. That's borderline nuthugger as far as I'm concerned.

<IFRAME height=390 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_jmFXl1sHh0" frameBorder=0 width=480 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

That would be like myself, a fan of Tyson, arguing that he could have continued against Douglas. Come on, man.

The ref did him a favor by not allowing him to take more unnecessary punishment, as he was defenseless and was in no position to defend himself.

Listen to the ringside commentator who had a great view states that "Lewis falls forward into the referee, and almost pushed the referee over."

You will not find a legitimate case of any ATG heavies being DEMOLISHED inside of a few short rounds as is the case with Lennox on 2 occasions.

As to the McCall stoppage, no doubt that Lennox was hurt. But he wasn't in the pathetic condition that you described. After just one big punch that early in the fight, he deserved a chance to defend himself (and his title). The referee could have stopped it seconds later if he was unable to defend himself.

I always ask two question about this KO.

1) Is there a chance in hell that fight gets stopped like that if it were Mike Tyson?

2) Other than the scandalous Dokes-Weaver KO, has any other heavyweight champion ever lost his title without a chance to defend himself? You compare this stoppage to the Baer-Carnera or (the first) Ingo-Patterson KO's and it's a f'n joke. And the HBO commentators were shocked by the stoppage. This You Tube version you posted had the commentary overdubbed years later.

JAB5239
05-16-2011, 08:09 PM
You will not find a legitimate case of any ATG heavies being DEMOLISHED inside of a few short rounds as is the case with Lennox on 2 occasions.

And you will only find 1 other case of a career heavyweight who became champion beating EVERY fighter he ever faced. LL's lack of preparation have to be acknowledged in his two losses, but his dominance in rematches should be equally looked at.

House of Stone
05-16-2011, 08:12 PM
i agree with most of what is being said here I don't think I'd rank him in my top ten either (maybe just outside it maybe just inside it) but I disagree on the mccall stoppage i think he could have been given the benefit of the doubt, it was a flash KO unlike the tyson douglas KO which it was related to ... the Tyson douglas one was as a result of a brutal beatdown, the Lewis one ... well I wouldn't have stepped in quiet so soon

CarlosG815
05-16-2011, 08:27 PM
As to the McCall stoppage, no doubt that Lennox was hurt. But he wasn't in the pathetic condition that you described. After just one big punch that early in the fight, he deserved a chance to defend himself (and his title). The referee could have stopped it seconds later if he was unable to defend himself.

I always ask two question about this KO.

1) Is there a chance in hell that fight gets stopped like that if it were Mike Tyson?

2) Other than the scandalous Dokes-Weaver KO, has any other heavyweight champion ever lost his title without a chance to defend himself? You compare this stoppage to the Baer-Carnera or (the first) Ingo-Patterson KO's and it's a f'n joke. And the HBO commentators were shocked by the stoppage. This You Tube version you posted had the commentary overdubbed years later.

So because Lennox was the champion he deserved to continue although he was not fit to? Because McCall was the challenger for the belt, he is not entitled to his knockout?

It was a knockout Scott, and a legit one at that. We can not look at the situation and base our actions on that. The ref has to be objective in his making of calls, otherwise he would be inconsistent. He was not fit to continue, and as we saw with Chavez Taylor - it doesn't matter who's fighting, what round, how hard a battle was fought, or how much time is on the clock - if a fighter can not continue, he is not allowed to continue. Lennox was not able to continue.

And if it were Tyson, who knows what would have happened? He was never wobbled and dropped like that in a fight. Tyson would have walked through that shot and probably landed a knockout counter left hook.

IronDanHamza
05-16-2011, 08:46 PM
I have much the same problem with him. He's a likeable man but I have a hard time placing him in the TOP 10.

Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Liston
Ali
Frazier
Foreman

are definitely above him

Wills, Tunney, Schmelling, Marciano, Holmes, Tyson are in competition for the final 3. Most days I would have Marciano and Holmes as definitely better. :-)

With this we have the question of the day - should we downgrade LL to TOP 20 because he would have lost to VK if not for the cut, or should VK be upgraded to TOP 20?

He's not a likeable man.

Not in my opinion.

IronDanHamza
05-16-2011, 08:53 PM
Lennox Lewis is a great HW Champion but he's not a Top 10 ATG HW IMO.

Top 15 no doubt. Top 10? I don't think so.

Joeyzagz
05-16-2011, 08:56 PM
-I don't give him really no credit for his win over Tyson, I feel Tyson just fighting for a paycheck at that point. Some even say thats his best win, which says something to me.

-Although it may not have been his fault, I would of like to see him fight the best of his era in there prime etc Tyson, Holyfiled, Bowe, Moorer, and even a 94 Foreman to.

-I found he had a lucky escape with Vitali Klitschko. I found Vitali was possibly on his way to doing a upset, only for the cuts. He should of gave Vitali a rematch, but instead retired. Which I found very dissapointing.

Lewis was a dominant HW champion and did leave a legacy at the weight. But I must say I question his some of his greatness. When I look into his resume and losses, and his best wins.

In my OPINION I don't feel he breaks into a top 10 HW ATG list.

I rank Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, & Jeffries all higher.

I find it strange how you can criticize Lennox post-35 when Dempsey, Frazier, Jeffries, Tyson and Marciano have 0 decent wins at that age. Why should Lennox give rematches at age 38 when most of the guys on your list were retired or complete rubbish at that point?

As for Ali, Louis, Johnson, Holmes, Foreman: They all have unavenged losses on their record. Lennox defeated everyone on his resume' and fought in the deepest Heavyweight division of all time. He fought back when Americans still cared about the sport, but still late enough to catch the Eastern Euro invasion. Beat the best of both worlds.

-Last Undisputed Champ
-Last true Lineal Champ

I'll give you Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis but its hard to make an argument for anyone else over Lennox.

BigStereotype
05-16-2011, 09:00 PM
Many reputable boxing writers and historians share the same opinion of Lennox Lewis. He doesn't belong anywhere near a top 10 ATG HW list. It's a slap in the face to those who are truly great.

There are many on this forum who love Lennox with a passion. You are going to catch some flack for your opinion. You will see that he has such die hard fans who refuse to acknowledge that he could not continue against McCall, as he is blatantly falling side to side and forward into the ref, yet these die hard fans believe he could have continued. That's borderline nuthugger as far as I'm concerned.

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_jmFXl1sHh0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That would be like myself, a fan of Tyson, arguing that he could have continued against Douglas. Come on, man.

The ref did him a favor by not allowing him to take more unnecessary punishment, as he was defenseless and was in no position to defend himself.

Listen to the ringside commentator who had a great view states that "Lewis falls forward into the referee, and almost pushed the referee over."

You will not find a legitimate case of any ATG heavies being DEMOLISHED inside of a few short rounds as is the case with Lennox on 2 occasions.

Fireman Jim Flynn was a worldbeater, wasn't he?

CarlosG815
05-16-2011, 09:10 PM
Fireman Jim Flynn was a worldbeater, wasn't he?

Once again you show how ignorant you are when it comes to this sport and the career of an ATG like Jack Dempsey.

Note the word "legitimate." As in, legit - knocked cold without controversy. Jack Dempsey is believed by many to have thrown that fight. He was offered more money to lose, and according to his wife at the time, Jack Dempsey threw the fight. What reason would she have to lie about that? She said they needed the extra money so he took a dive.

Looking at the careers of those two men, you really find it hard to believe that in a time where corruption and politics were rampant, that a fighter of Dempsey's caliber would be knocked out in a round by Fireman Jim Flynn? I suppose


Are you also going to bring up how Sonnyboy is the only person to ever have said Dempsey is the greatest heavyweight of all time? Don't you get tired of being ignorant?

BigStereotype
05-16-2011, 09:19 PM
Once again you show how ignorant you are when it comes to this sport and the career of an ATG like Jack Dempsey.

Note the word "legitimate." As in, legit - knocked cold without controversy. Jack Dempsey is believed by many to have thrown that fight. He was offered more money to lose, and according to his wife at the time, Jack Dempsey threw the fight. What reason would she have to lie about that? She said they needed the extra money so he took a dive.

Looking at the careers of those two men, you really find it hard to believe that in a time where corruption and politics were rampant, that a fighter of Dempsey's caliber would be knocked out in a round by Fireman Jim Flynn? I suppose I shouldn't be asking you that question, as you are as dense as a lump of elephant ****.

Once again you show your ignorance. It's starting to get embarrassing.

Are you also going to bring up how Sonnyboy is the only person to ever have said Dempsey is the greatest heavyweight of all time? Don't you get tired of being ignorant?

Believed by many but not incontrovertibly so. There are plenty of folks who think he just got caught cold. Now he may have taken a dive, he might not have but he certainly got KO1. And even if you could say without a doubt (you can't), shouldn't cheating count worse for your ATG rating than having a bad night anyway?? And stfu about the quotes, I already acknowledged them. I don't agree. Besides, should YOU make up YOUR mind about YOUR list?

Barn
05-16-2011, 09:20 PM
He's not a likeable man.

Not in my opinion.
I agree, don't like him.

CarlosG815
05-16-2011, 09:27 PM
I agree, don't like him.

I'm with you guys. He has no class.

CarlosG815
05-16-2011, 09:31 PM
Believed by many but not incontrovertibly so. There are plenty of folks who think he just got caught cold. Now he may have taken a dive, he might not have but he certainly got KO1. And even if you could say without a doubt (you can't), shouldn't cheating count worse for your ATG rating than having a bad night anyway?? And stfu about the quotes, I already acknowledged them. I don't agree. Besides, should YOU make up YOUR mind about YOUR list?

Really? Who??? I am anxious to know who the many are. As far as what is documented, most of those involved in the fight say it was fixed, and the manager in charge was later arrested for fixing fights. Dempsey is the only one who never admitted that he took a dive, as he knew that a loss wasn't as hurtful to his career as accepting an offer to lay down. Why admit that you took a dive when nobody cared that you had a loss on your record?

So please educate us all on who believe he got caught cold, and who you know of that was present at the fight. I was so impressed with your knowledge on his standing with regards to a ranking, I am dying to hear your thoughts and wisdom and in depth insight to his fight with Flynn. Please enlighten us all, I am excited to read what you have to say.

And of course you don't agree, you could never agree with a group of people who know something about boxing, you only know how to play "follow the leader" so your list will look identical to most of the guys on this forum.

Barn
05-16-2011, 09:38 PM
I'm working on a Jack Dempsey highlight at the moment, I'll hit you guys up when it's done.

BigStereotype
05-16-2011, 09:38 PM
Really? Who??? I am anxious to know who the many are. As far as what is documented, most of those involved in the fight say it was fixed, and the manager in charge was later arrested for fixing fights. Dempsey is the only one who never admitted that he took a dive, as he knew that a loss wasn't as hurtful to his career as accepting an offer to lay down. Why admit that you took a dive when nobody cared that you had a loss on your record?

So please educate us all on who believe he got caught cold, and who you know of that was present at the fight. I was so impressed with your knowledge on his standing with regards to a ranking, I am dying to hear your thoughts and wisdom and in depth insight to his fight with Flynn. Please enlighten us all, I am excited to read what you have to say.

And of course you don't agree, you could never agree with a group of people who know something about boxing, you only know how to play "follow the leader" so your list will look identical to most of the guys on this forum.

Lmao says the guy who's only reasoning for Dempsey GOAT is "these guys said so!"

CarlosG815
05-16-2011, 10:11 PM
Lmao says the guy who's only reasoning for Dempsey GOAT is "these guys said so!"

"these guys" are knowledgeable boxing historians, sports writers, other fighters who saw him fight, etc... Not a bunch of guys on a boxing forum.

Scott9945
05-16-2011, 10:57 PM
So because Lennox was the champion he deserved to continue although he was not fit to? Because McCall was the challenger for the belt, he is not entitled to his knockout?

It was a knockout Scott, and a legit one at that. We can not look at the situation and base our actions on that. The ref has to be objective in his making of calls, otherwise he would be inconsistent. He was not fit to continue, and as we saw with Chavez Taylor - it doesn't matter who's fighting, what round, how hard a battle was fought, or how much time is on the clock - if a fighter can not continue, he is not allowed to continue. Lennox was not able to continue.

And if it were Tyson, who knows what would have happened? He was never wobbled and dropped like that in a fight. Tyson would have walked through that shot and probably landed a knockout counter left hook.

Chavez-Taylor was an even worse call, so maybe we just see these things differently. I do believe that a referee should be subjective and base his actions on a situation. You just don't stop a heavyweight championship fight as quickly as you would for an 18 y/o who gets hurt in a prelim match. And you certainly don't stop a title fight when there is two seconds left and the champion isn't even getting hit.

Once again, when else was a heavyweight title taken from a champion that quickly? And since you didn't answer, there would have been a RIOT if Tyson were ever stopped like that.

joe strong
05-16-2011, 11:01 PM
By now everyone should no that this isn't a troll thread or anything like that. I like to debate about the history of boxing and boxers. So anyway.....

I was recetnly browsing through the record of Lennon Lewis. No dout Lewis deserves his place in history as a HW. But it got me thinking and douting his greatness. Were I often see him in top 10 HW lists and even hear some the best ever.

But I have my douts with his greatness. Here's why......

-He twice lost his title to men via KO to men who should of never had the belt. McCall was tough and durable but was always dealt when stpped up. Rahman was very ordinary and never really done pre or post Lewis fights. Yet they both managed to brutally KO Lewis in his prime's. I find them losses terrible.

-He had a terrible struggle with Ray Mercer and only managed to win on a Majority decision, and alot actually thought Mercer WON it. Mercer was never really that great as a pro, an old Holmes, and Holyfield dealt with him way better than Lewis did.

-Although he did get robbed, I always thought he should of dominated an ageing Holyfield even better. The second time alot even thought Holyfield had done enough for a draw. Not impressive. Imagine that would of been a 91/92 Evander.

-I don't give him really no credit for his win over Tyson, I feel Tyson just fighting for a paycheck at that point. Some even say thats his best win, which says something to me.

-Although it may not have been his fault, I would of like to see him fight the best of his era in there prime etc Tyson, Holyfiled, Bowe, Moorer, and even a 94 Foreman to.

-I found he had a lucky escape with Vitali Klitschko. I found Vitali was possibly on his way to doing a upset, only for the cuts. He should of gave Vitali a rematch, but instead retired. Which I found very dissapointing.

Lewis was a dominant HW champion and did leave a legacy at the weight. But I must say I question his some of his greatness. When I look into his resume and losses, and his best wins.

In my OPINION I don't feel he breaks into a top 10 HW ATG list.

I rank Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, & Jeffries all higher.

how many mccall & rahman fights have you seen? or are you just another "look at boxing rec & go from that"type of poster.i own almost all of their fights & i will say they had some good fights in which they lost.another guy is frans botha.ray mercer had a decent career but was plagued by the problems many american HW's have.he fought lewis in his prime & almost beat him.mercer had many good fights as well.watch his fight with tommy morrison or tim witherspoon.there is a reason these recycled HW's keep showing up.the division has very little depth.there is haye,boytsov,helenius,dimitrenko,pulev,arreola,sol is & a few others but there are 4 world titles so there are many regional belts to gain a good ranking in one of the organizations.mercer's best stretch in his career was after avenging the embarrassing loss to jesse ferguson he fought evander holyfield, lennox lewis & tim witherspoon.he went 1-2 but was a force in all 3.he gained more from 2 losses then any wins he ever got.

CarlosG815
05-16-2011, 11:03 PM
Chavez-Taylor was an even worse call, so maybe we just see these things differently. I do believe that a referee should be subjective and base his actions on a situation. You just don't stop a heavyweight championship fight as quickly as you would for an 18 y/o who gets hurt in a prelim match. And you certainly don't stop a title fight when there is two seconds left and the champion isn't even getting hit.

Once again, when else was a heavyweight title taken from a champion that quickly? And since you didn't answer, there would have been a RIOT if Tyson were ever stopped like that.

Scott when a guy can't continue, he can't continue. When was Tyson ever wobbled, glossy eyed, and stumbling around like that? Hell, Tyson was more fit to continue against Holyfield than Lennox was against McCall. What do you think about that?

And like I said, it's hard to say because there have been very few champions who have been demolished so quickly as Lennox Lewis has in multiple fights.

$BloodyNate$
05-16-2011, 11:08 PM
Nobody answered me, is it not a double standard that people don't give Rocky a lot of credit for KOing Louis, Walcott and Charles, but give Lewis lots of credit for beating Old Tyson & Holyfield? His best win like I said is probably Vital actually and their's a lot of controversy over that fight because Vital was winning although is was fists that bloodied the man up, but then they didn't rematch.

Still agree on his best day he's a handful for anybody, but really I just wanna know why Rocky don't get any credit. Both can't be blamed for the era they fought in though but they dominated.

Dave Rado
05-16-2011, 11:10 PM
Many reputable boxing writers and historians share the same opinion of Lennox Lewis. He doesn't belong anywhere near a top 10 ATG HW list. It's a slap in the face to those who are truly great.

Rubbish. Cliff Rold ranks him #9 (http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-heavyweights-all-time-top-ten--26161). Monte D. Cox also ranks him #9 (http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html). The International Boxing Research Organisation (whose rankings are a concensus of roughly 30 of the most respected boxing historians in the world) ranks him #12 (http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=52), which is only just outside the top 10.

BigStereotype
05-16-2011, 11:18 PM
Anyway, to the topic at hand. I give Lewis a lot of credit for beating up on some good fighters. Do some people overrated him? Hell yeah. That "Lewis is the unquestionable GOAT" thread comes to mind. But a lot of people overstate his losses when they give others passes. I think that Lewis is a great fighter with a sterling resume, probably a 7-10 heavyweight. It fluctuates based on my mood haha but he's consistently around there for me. Definitely top ten, in my opinion.

Dave Rado
05-16-2011, 11:21 PM
Nobody answered me, is it not a double standard that people don't give Rocky a lot of credit for KOing Louis, Walcott and Charles, but give Lewis lots of credit for beating Old Tyson & Holyfield?

Tyson was ranked top 3 by The Ring and by most independent rankings when Lewis beat him and Holyfield was ranked #2 when Lewis beat him. And while with the benefit of hindsight, Lewis doesn't deserve a lot of credit for the Tyson win, Holyfield was still a truly world class fighter when they fought, not far from his best.

Joe Louis was no longer considered to be a top 10 Heavyweight by anyone when Marciano beat him. Marciano does deserve credit for beating Walcott and Charles - but Charles was an ATG Light Heavyweight but only a good Heavyweight, not a great one; and yet Charles gave Marciano all the trouble he could handle. And that wasn't Marciano having an off night, that was Marciano at his best.

Lewis had a few off-nights and some bad losses, but he avenged the losses convincingly and his resume and skills justify a place around the #10 spot. Most boxing historians see it that way.

Duran had some very bad losses as well, but most rank him top 10 P4P and #1 Lightweight of all time. So why do people criticise Lewis so much for his off nights?

Scott9945
05-16-2011, 11:48 PM
Scott when a guy can't continue, he can't continue. When was Tyson ever wobbled, glossy eyed, and stumbling around like that? Hell, Tyson was more fit to continue against Holyfield than Lennox was against McCall. What do you think about that?

And like I said, it's hard to say because there have been very few champions who have been demolished so quickly as Lennox Lewis has in multiple fights.

You're refusing to acknowledge my "what if" point about Tyson, so I'll just dismiss that as unanswered. Unlike Lewis, Tyson was glad when the Holyfield fight was over. He had taken a lot of punishment and was getting pounded. Tyson admitted that he didn't remember the second half of that fight, which clearly indicates a concussion. Never heard that Lewis had a concussion from that single right he caught. So in other words, no comparison. The ref was in the tank for Don King, McCall's promoter.

And how many times was Lewis "demolished so quickly"? A 5th round KO isn't considered to be an early KO. So where are all these "multiple fights" Carlos?

JAB5239
05-16-2011, 11:56 PM
Rubbish. Cliff Rold ranks him #9 (http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-heavyweights-all-time-top-ten--26161). Monte D. Cox also ranks him #9 (http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html). The International Boxing Research Organisation (whose rankings are a concensus of roughly 30 of the most respected boxing historians in the world) ranks him #12 (http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=52), which is only just outside the top 10.

Like other fighters Lewis' position is bound to rise even more over the nexr 10-20 years.

IronDanHamza
05-17-2011, 12:02 AM
Rubbish. Cliff Rold ranks him #9 (http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-heavyweights-all-time-top-ten--26161). Monte D. Cox also ranks him #9 (http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html). The International Boxing Research Organisation (whose rankings are a concensus of roughly 30 of the most respected boxing historians in the world) ranks him #12 (http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=52), which is only just outside the top 10.

Those rankings are absolutely reasonable in my book.

I don't consider him a Top 10 HW IMO but #9 is absolutely reasonable.

I respect the IBRO's list's.

CarlosG815
05-17-2011, 12:08 AM
You're refusing to acknowledge my "what if" point about Tyson, so I'll just dismiss that as unanswered. Unlike Lewis, Tyson was glad when the Holyfield fight was over. He had taken a lot of punishment and was getting pounded. Tyson admitted that he didn't remember the second half of that fight, which clearly indicates a concussion. Never heard that Lewis had a concussion from that single right he caught. So in other words, no comparison. The ref was in the tank for Don King, McCall's promoter.

And how many times was Lewis "demolished so quickly"? A 5th round KO isn't considered to be an early KO. So where are all these "multiple fights" Carlos?

How am I dismissing the 'what if?' Are you trying to stretch as if I have not answered? I have stated that if it were Tyson, the fight would be stopped just the same, as it was against Holyfield, even though Tyson was not wobbled and stumbling behind held up by the ref.

Why are you acting as if I am dodging your question? I thought I answered it the first time. If what I have said above is not clear let me know and I will try to word it another way. I do think that if it were Tyson the fight would be stopped and rightfully so.

He was demolished and glossy eyed in just 2 rounds by McCall, and again almost as bad in the 5th round against Rahman. I consider the 5th round fairly early in a fight.

Anything more than 1 is multiple. Scott you can twist it anyway that you want because of your love for Lennox Lewis but facts are facts - it has happened to nobody else and in such devastating 1 punch fashion as it has to Lennox Lewis. He was knocked back in time both times and was not fit to continue. Both fights were early on, just accept it. They were legit knockouts and Lennox could was not fit to continue.

JAB5239
05-17-2011, 12:33 AM
How am I dismissing the 'what if?' Are you trying to stretch as if I have not answered? I have stated that if it were Tyson, the fight would be stopped just the same, as it was against Holyfield, even though Tyson was not wobbled and stumbling behind held up by the ref.

Why are you acting as if I am dodging your question? I thought I answered it the first time. If what I have said above is not clear let me know and I will try to word it another way. I do think that if it were Tyson the fight would be stopped and rightfully so.

He was demolished and glossy eyed in just 2 rounds by McCall, and again almost as bad in the 5th round against Rahman. I consider the 5th round fairly early in a fight.

Anything more than 1 is multiple. Scott you can twist it anyway that you want because of your love for Lennox Lewis but facts are facts - it has happened to nobody else and in such devastating 1 punch fashion as it has to Lennox Lewis. He was knocked back in time both times and was not fit to continue. Both fights were early on, just accept it. They were legit knockouts and Lennox could was not fit to continue.

You put so much emphasis on these 2 losses but give no credit for beating every man he ever faced. Why is that?

CarlosG815
05-17-2011, 12:39 AM
You put so much emphasis on these 2 losses but give no credit for beating every man he ever faced. Why is that?

Because that doesn't say a lot when everybody you face is at the tail end of their career; far from prime and nowhere near their top condition.

You want me to give him credit for beating a washed up McCall or Rahman who should have never won the title in the first place? Or how about credit for obese Tua who fought 25 pounds over his prime weight, or Mike Tyson who was shot to pieces and was doped up on drugs?

JAB5239
05-17-2011, 12:47 AM
Because that doesn't say a lot when everybody you face is at the tail end of their career; far from prime and nowhere near their top condition.

You want me to give him credit for beating a washed up McCall or Rahman who should have never won the title in the first place? Or how about credit for obese Tua who fought 25 pounds over his prime weight, or Mike Tyson who was shot to pieces and was doped up on drugs?

Thank you, this is EXACTLY what I mean by double standards. This can be done with almost any fighters resume. In fact I just pointed out many of these same things in the Dempsey thread and you chose to ignore it.

How do we forgive Dempsey for twice losing with one win and a draw against Willie Meehan? This is a guy who fought at flyweight to start his career and was famous for being to lazy to do road work or seriously train.

How about his draw with John Lester Johnson...a guy who never beat a top fighter and finished his career a whopping 35-16-1?

How are these fights any better than LL's 2 losses to guys who may not have been great, but were at least seen as contenders with power?

And please, don't even make me go back into Dempsey's dismal title reign.

Scott9945
05-17-2011, 01:26 AM
How am I dismissing the 'what if?' Are you trying to stretch as if I have not answered? I have stated that if it were Tyson, the fight would be stopped just the same, as it was against Holyfield, even though Tyson was not wobbled and stumbling behind held up by the ref.

Why are you acting as if I am dodging your question? I thought I answered it the first time. If what I have said above is not clear let me know and I will try to word it another way. I do think that if it were Tyson the fight would be stopped and rightfully so.

He was demolished and glossy eyed in just 2 rounds by McCall, and again almost as bad in the 5th round against Rahman. I consider the 5th round fairly early in a fight.

Anything more than 1 is multiple. Scott you can twist it anyway that you want because of your love for Lennox Lewis but facts are facts - it has happened to nobody else and in such devastating 1 punch fashion as it has to Lennox Lewis. He was knocked back in time both times and was not fit to continue. Both fights were early on, just accept it. They were legit knockouts and Lennox could was not fit to continue.

No, you said before that you couldn't even imagine Tyson being hurt like that, and if he got hit with a punch like that he would walk through it and score a KO (BTW, you really shouldn't talk about other people loving a fighter). I'm convinced if it were Tyson being the victim of a quick stoppage you'd have been outraged.

The two losses on Lewis' record are not the same. One was a 10 count KO, the other was a controversial stoppage very early in the fight with the fighting up and wanting to continue. Pretending that they were the same thing is transparent fiction.

RubenSonny
05-17-2011, 04:15 AM
I had him in my top 10 awhile back but I think he'd be around 11-13 if I was forced to make a list now, when reflecting on it, the lack of a career defining win makes it difficult to rank him in the 10. Had he fought and beat Bowe that would've been it, having said that, I think Bowe would've smashed him.

JAB5239
05-17-2011, 04:32 AM
I had him in my top 10 awhile back but I think he'd be around 11-13 if I was forced to make a list now, when reflecting on it, the lack of a career defining win makes it difficult to rank him in the 10. Had he fought and beat Bowe that would've been it, having said that, I think Bowe would've smashed him.

I don't know, blowing out Golota who had twice destroyed Bowe and two wins (yeah I know one was a draw) over a near prime Holyfield seems pretty defining to me. Just my opinion of course.

Barn
05-17-2011, 05:34 AM
I had him in my top 10 awhile back but I think he'd be around 11-13 if I was forced to make a list now, when reflecting on it, the lack of a career defining win makes it difficult to rank him in the 10. Had he fought and beat Bowe that would've been it, having said that, I think Bowe would've smashed him.
Why did Bowe not fight him then?

Joking of course we know what path this thread is going to take.

bklynboy
05-17-2011, 08:05 AM
Duran had some very bad losses resulted, but most rank him top 10 P4P and #1 Lightweight of all time. So why do people criticise Lewis so much for his off nights?

Because Duran was older, past his prime, and out of his weight class when he had those off nights. For his health he should have retired after Hagler and Hearns but continued to fight another 10 years until his mid 40s.

House of Stone
05-17-2011, 09:30 AM
I could see lewis being ranked anywhere from say 8 to 12 without taking issue with it. But it's when people start putting him way up like G.O.A.T/top 2 or way down at 18/19 or not even top twenty that its clear they are simply biased. This debate over the mccall KO is pretty silly, there is no way it can be related to the Tyson douglas KO or even the Tyson stoppage against Holyfield as seems to be getting done again and again. It was a flash knockdown and imo he could have been given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to continue, a different ref and he would have been. The big pity with Lewis especially for his legacy is that he didn't take the vitali rematch given what vit has done since two wins over vit would settle the lewis debate once and for all.

Barn
05-17-2011, 10:08 AM
I could see lewis being ranked anywhere from say 8 to 12 without taking issue with it. But it's when people start putting him way up like G.O.A.T/top 2 or way down at 18/19 or not even top twenty that its clear they are simply biased. This debate over the mccall KO is pretty silly, there is no way it can be related to the Tyson douglas KO or even the Tyson stoppage against Holyfield as seems to be getting done again and again. It was a flash knockdown and imo he could have been given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to continue, a different ref and he would have been. The big pity with Lewis especially for his legacy is that he didn't take the vitali rematch given what vit has done since two wins over vit would settle the lewis debate once and for all.
I agree 4-12 is acceptable in my opinion.

It's strange with the HW's you got Ali and Louis as the Top 2 and then it's just a mad free for all from then on with many being evenly matched.

fitefanSHO
05-17-2011, 10:40 AM
I rate Lewis #8 on my Heavyweight Top 10 ATG list

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman
6. Jack Johnson
7. Evander Holyfield
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Joe Frazier
10. Jack Dempsey

Lewis avenged all of his defeats and beat the best big men of his era.

Was his chin a little suspect? Sure, but it was really only exposed once.

I agree the McCall stoppage was premature and Lewis deserved a chance to survive.

The_Demon
05-17-2011, 10:45 AM
Lewis makes my top 10,he beat everybody that wanted too fight him,generally dominating them too,avenging both losses and was considered the best HW in a pretty solid era in the division,sure he had his weaknsesses and clearly isnt the GOAT or anything,but anything from 5-13 is fair imo

IMDAZED
05-17-2011, 10:51 AM
And you will only find 1 other case of a career heavyweight who became champion beating EVERY fighter he ever faced. LL's lack of preparation have to be acknowledged in his two losses, but his dominance in rematches should be equally looked at.


Agreed.

I'd also add that struggling against Mercer isn't anything bad. Mercer was quite inconsistent but when he was on his game (as he was against Lennox), he was a handful for any HW. And as close as that fight was, I thought Lewis fought an excellent, excellent bout against a style that was an absolute nightmare for him.

Holtol
05-17-2011, 12:10 PM
I consider Lewis the second best during his time, I think Holyfield was a greater boxer. And I think Bowe was better, he just had a shorter prime. I have a hard time seeing a second or third best in a decade being top 10 considering there has been over 10 decades of boxing.

RubenSonny
05-17-2011, 12:23 PM
I don't know, blowing out Golota who had twice destroyed Bowe and two wins (yeah I know one was a draw) over a near prime Holyfield seems pretty defining to me. Just my opinion of course.

Golota was a mental midget and showed it in the Bowe fights, it was a way of quitting, I still give Lewis credit for it but in no way would I ever call that a career defining win. Holyfield is a good win, but he wasn't near prime, he was still good though, and I'd bet all my money on a younger version of Holyfield against Lewis, though I can see the argument for that being one I guess, but I don't consider it one.

Why did Bowe not fight him then?

Joking of course we know what path this thread is going to take.

I don't really know the details of it, I've seen evidence that suggests Bowe ducked Lewis and I've also heard from respected people the vice versa, I don't really know or care enough to comment on that. Even if Bowe did duck him, I'd still pick him to win, like I'd pick Dempsey to beat Greb, I think an in-prime Bowe is a better fighter than Lewis by quite a bit.

slicksouthpaw16
05-17-2011, 12:49 PM
His first losses to Rachman and McCall were both fluke, one punch knockouts that he avenged convincingly. He beat EVERYONE he fought and reigned for years, hes a certified top 10 IMO.

Dave Rado
05-17-2011, 09:02 PM
Because Duran was older, past his prime, and out of his weight class when he had those off nights.

Rubbish. When he lost to Kirkland Laing he was 31 and still in his prime. When he was knocked cold in two rounds by Hearns he was 32, and still in his prime. And he wasn't fighting at higher weights to challenge himself like Armstrong did - he was fighting at those weights because he could no longer make the lower weights. He wasn't fighting out of his weight class, he had just developed with age so that his weight class had increased.

Several of his best wins took place after or just before those two losses, including some at higher weights than those fights were at; and he gave Hagler all the trouble he could handle after the Laing defeat and only one fight before the loss to Hearns.

Anthony342
05-17-2011, 11:15 PM
I'm with you guys. He has no class.

Why not? What makes him so unlikeable? I haven't seen much of his career yet.

Scott9945
05-18-2011, 12:06 AM
Why not? What makes him so unlikeable? I haven't seen much of his career yet.

Many people who don't like Lewis consider him aloof and very egotistical. They may not be wrong either. But one thing you can say about Lennox is that he has never embarrassed boxing with his out of the ring behavior.

jreckoning
05-18-2011, 12:09 AM
Many people who don't like Lewis consider him aloof and very egotistical. They may not be wrong either. But one thing you can say about Lennox is that he has never embarrassed boxing with his out of the ring behavior.


The only thing that was embarassing was his constant repetition of the word "Absolutely" and his generally bland commentating skills.

Scott9945
05-18-2011, 12:24 AM
The only thing that was embarassing was his constant repetition of the word "Absolutely" and his generally bland commentating skills.

Lewis was awful as a boxing commentator. Definitely.

Ziggy Stardust
05-18-2011, 02:14 AM
Rubbish. When he lost to Kirkland Laing he was 31 and still in his prime. When he was knocked cold in two rounds by Hearns he was 32, and still in his prime.

Just because you're 31 doesn't mean you're prime. Wilfred Benitez was washed up in his 20s ffs.


Several of his best wins took place after or just before those two losses, including some at higher weights than those fights were at; and he gave Hagler all the trouble he could handle after the Laing defeat and only one fight before the loss to Hearns.

Several of Ali's best wins came after HE was past-prime. Robinson had some of HIS biggest wins past-prime. Biggest wins does not mean you're in your prime.

Poet

IronDanHamza
05-18-2011, 08:34 AM
Why not? What makes him so unlikeable? I haven't seen much of his career yet.

Not for what he does in the ring. What he does outside.

Mainly because he talked nonsense most of his career; From his cringeworthy confrontation with Bowe all the way to his recent hour long interview on Ringside.

He never takes responsibility for any of his loss's or bad performances, it's always an excuse. Instead of saying "The better man won tonight, I'll prove myself in the rematch that I'm really the better man" something most of us saw him as very capable of (he later went on to prove he was by beating them) instead he would say "Oh, I was out of shape" "Oh, the ring was too small" etc etc.

Even when he beat Klitschko, he refused to adknowledge he was losing the fight. Who cares if he was losing? He busted his face wide open to the extent it had to be stopped. That is a legit win. Instead of whinging and moaning to Larry Merchant what he should have said was "On my worst day I hit him enough to bust his face up so it had to be stopped". What he did say, I didn't like.

We all know Mike Tyson was an idiot outside the ring and did alot of stupid things, ridiculous things. But you have to respect him for having no excuses when he lost. When he lost to Douglas, he didn't say and still doesn't say " I was out of shape, I wasn't focused on training" etc he simply says "The better man won" For every loss he had expect maybe Holyfield 1. But in recent years he admits Holyfield was simply the better man on the day.

Plus, Lewis is just in love with himself pretty much.

Not taking away nothing from him as a fighter, he's a great fighter.

He's just not a likeable guy, to me.

Barn
05-18-2011, 08:43 AM
Not for what he does in the ring. What he does outside.

Mainly because he talked nonsense most of his career; From his cringeworthy confrontation with Bowe all the way to his recent hour long interview on Ringside.

He never takes responsibility for any of his loss's or bad performances, it's always an excuse. Instead of saying "The better man won tonight, I'll prove myself in the rematch that I'm really the better man" something most of us saw him as very capable of (he later went on to prove he was by beating them) instead he would say "Oh, I was out of shape" "Oh, the ring was too small" etc etc.

Even when he beat Klitschko, he refused to adknowledge he was losing the fight. Who cares if he was losing? He busted his face wide open to the extent it had to be stopped. That is a legit win. Instead of whinging and moaning to Larry Merchant what he should have said was "On my worst day I hit him enough to bust his face up so it had to be stopped". What he did say, I didn't like.

We all know Mike Tyson was an idiot outside the ring and did alot of stupid things, ridiculous things. But you have to respect him for having no excuses when he lost. When he lost to Douglas, he didn't say and still doesn't say " I was out of shape, I wasn't focused on training" etc he simply says "The better man won" For every loss he had expect maybe Holyfield 1. But in recent years he admits Holyfield was simply the better man on the day.

Plus, Lewis is just in love with himself pretty much.

Not taking away nothing from him as a fighter, he's a great fighter.

He's just not a likeable guy, to me.

"I'ma knock you out"
"Come and knock me out then"
"I'ma knock you out"

Or something along those lines :rofl:

Dave Rado
05-18-2011, 09:55 PM
Just because you're 31 doesn't mean you're prime. Wilfred Benitez was washed up in his 20s ffs.

Duran was very much still in his prime when he was 31.

Ziggy Stardust
05-18-2011, 10:32 PM
Duran was very much still in his prime when he was 31.

No he wasn't. Nor was he in his prime weight-class.

Poet

CarlosG815
05-19-2011, 01:59 AM
Duran was very much still in his prime when he was 31.

I disagree. Can you elaborate on your idea of prime and also explain when Duran showed that he was still "Very much still prime" at 31?