View Full Version : how good was ken buchanan?


talip bin osman
05-16-2011, 10:16 AM
i am quite clueless about his career/legacy except for the fact that he was defeated by a young roberto duran to take away his championship @ 135...

any insights about him? was he a someone like ricky hatton? how would he do against marquez? or against a prime castillo? or the 135 version of manny pacquiao?

gentlemen?

BigStereotype
05-16-2011, 10:23 AM
I know he's a HOFer and seems to be very highly regarded around here, but I can't get over thinking of him as an opponent.

Barnburner
05-16-2011, 10:26 AM
Very good fighter from my homeland usually given the acolade of Top 20 LW. Beat good fighters such as Ismael Laguma, Jim Watt and Carlos Ortiz amongst a host of other condeners.

Only lost 8 times most of which came past prime.

He was a classic boxer puncher posessing a good jab and ring IQ and is in my opinion the 2nd greatest fighter to com out of Scotland.

Scott9945
05-16-2011, 10:39 AM
i am quite clueless about his career/legacy except for the fact that he was defeated by a young roberto duran to take away his championship @ 135...

any insights about him? was he a someone like ricky hatton? how would he do against marquez? or against a prime castillo? or the 135 version of manny pacquiao?

gentlemen?

Buchannan ws actually nothing like Hatton, in or out of the ring. He was a light punching master boxer, a true technician in the ring. Fights against JMM or Castillo would have been very intruiging. I think that Pacquiao's speed would have simply overwhelmed Buchanan though.

Barnburner
05-16-2011, 10:40 AM
Buchannan ws actually nothing like Hatton, in or out of the ring. He was a light punching master boxer, a true technician in the ring. Fights against JMM or Castillo would have been very intruiging. I think that Pacquiao's speed would have simply overwhelmed Buchanan though.
I agree with the Pacquiao outcome, the 1st round in the Duran fight was really uncomfortable for him(alhtough he did land some good shots.)

cja07007
05-16-2011, 12:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxnBoDqn-qk

this documentary might interest you and give you a little insight.

IronDanHamza
05-16-2011, 04:28 PM
Very good fighter from my homeland usually given the acolade of Top 20 LW. Beat good fighters such as Ismael Laguma, Jim Watt and Carlos Ortiz amongst a host of other condeners.

Only lost 8 times most of which came past prime.

He was a classic boxer puncher posessing a good jab and ring IQ and is in my opinion the 2nd greatest fighter to com out of Scotland.

Top 10 in my book.

Buchana was an excellent fighter. His jab was better than good, he has an all time great jab that would give almost any weight in history a problem.

Endless skills, great great fighter.

Barnburner
05-16-2011, 04:54 PM
Top 10 in my book.
Buchana was an excellent fighter. His jab was better than good, he has an all time great jab that would give almost any weight in history a problem.

Endless skills, great great fighter.

Being Scottish that brought a smile to my face :)

I was just pointing out that almost all lists, have him Top 20. I would rank him around 10 as well...in fact no, he's definitely number 1 :lol1:

talip bin osman
05-16-2011, 05:54 PM
tnx for all these insights boys...

was carlos ortiz still in his prime when ken beat him or was he already shot that time?

IronDanHamza
05-16-2011, 05:56 PM
Being Scottish that brought a smile to my face :)

I was just pointing out that almost all lists, have him Top 20. I would rank him around 10 as well...in fact no, he's definitely number 1 :lol1:

Many people I know have him in the Top 10. I also don't know a Scot that doesn't :lol1:

I wouldn't disagree if someone didn't have him there but for me he is a Top 10 LW.

Meeting him a few years ago in my hometown in Wolverhampton, England was an honour.

Scott9945
05-16-2011, 05:58 PM
tnx for all these insights boys...

was carlos ortiz still in his prime when ken beat him or was he already shot that time?


Good question. Ortiz was on a comeback from retirement. I heard many years ago that he showed up to the weigh in dead drunk (allegedly). Ortiz was getting outboxed but not taking any serious punishment when he quit in his corner for no apparent reason. He never fought again.

IronDanHamza
05-16-2011, 06:01 PM
tnx for all these insights boys...

was carlos ortiz still in his prime when ken beat him or was he already shot that time?

Ortiz was done by the time Buchanan fought him.

Mid 30's, the last fight of a long, tough career.

IronDanHamza
05-16-2011, 06:06 PM
Good question. Ortiz was on a comeback from retirement. I heard many years ago that he showed up to the weigh in dead drunk (allegedly). Ortiz was getting outboxed but not taking any serious punishment when he quit in his corner for no apparent reason. He never fought again.

Ortiz was done.

He hadn't won a legit fight in many years and when he did there was showing clear signs of decline. Which was years prior to his short retirement.

Ortiz was done when he fought Buchanan, no question.

talip bin osman
05-16-2011, 06:12 PM
o tnx scott & irondan...

i recall he was a master boxer... his fight with laguna (a master boxer himself) must hav been a great, tactical chessmatch...

Boxing Bob
05-16-2011, 07:14 PM
a good fighter no doubt. But not an ATG, and definitly not a top 10 lightweight!

talip bin osman
05-16-2011, 07:23 PM
'just searched the site and came up with this...

http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-lightweights-all-time-11-25--22737

the guy is a legit HOF, though he didnt make it to cliff rold's top 10...:)

JAB5239
05-16-2011, 07:26 PM
'just searched the site and came up with this...

http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-lightweights-all-time-11-25--22737

the guy is a legit HOF, though he didnt make it to cliff rold's top 10...:)

You have to remember how historically deep the lightweight division is.

talip bin osman
05-16-2011, 07:32 PM
You have to remember how historically deep the lightweight division is.

yeah thats correct... in fact just now, i posted on the other thread exactly how deep this division is...:)

IronDanHamza
05-16-2011, 07:41 PM
Alot of people think he's a Top 10 LW, alot of people don't.

You will get that with divisions like Lightweight.

People could argue all who belongs between 7-10 at LW, WW and MW. Literally.

Buchanan is an ATG LW, though. No doubt about that.

Wild Blue Yonda
05-16-2011, 08:40 PM
Very good fighter from my homeland usually given the acolade of Top 20 LW. Beat good fighters such as Ismael Laguma, Jim Watt and Carlos Ortiz amongst a host of other condeners.

Only lost 8 times most of which came past prime.

He was a classic boxer puncher posessing a good jab and ring IQ and is in my opinion the 2nd greatest fighter to com out of Scotland.

I consider LW the deepest division for legends, which is no mean feat (Welter, Middle & Feather are all very good historically), & to that end, I think top-20 is too lofty for Buchanan. Top-30 is about what I would have him in, & I do think he'd get the best of Castillo & Marquez at the weight. I can't quite grasp what BigStereo means by thinking of Buchanan as a career opponent. The fighters you mentioned he beat were outstanding figures, not just for their time, but all-time. Hell, Ortiz is the best Puerto Rican fighter in history, to my mind.

Buchanan was a very capable champ. Top 25-30 at LW is the equivalent of being top 12-15 at Heavy.

Scott9945
05-16-2011, 09:37 PM
Buchanan is certainly worthy of the HOF. But he isn't even close to top 10 all time at 135.

Dave Rado
05-16-2011, 09:55 PM
Alot of people think he's a Top 10 LW, alot of people don't.

You will get that with divisions like Lightweight.

People could argue all who belongs between 7-10 at LW, WW and MW. Literally.

Buchanan is an ATG LW, though. No doubt about that.

Problem with putting him in the top 10 is his resume. He had a very short title reign, admittedly against very good competition, before losing to Duran, and after that loss, his only really good win was against Jim Watt, who was good but far from great.

That said, Duran beat him with an illegal punch, in what had been a competitive fight, and refused to give him a rematch; and in terms of skills alone you could argue he gets into the top 10. But ATG lists are based on resume as much as skills and taking both together, I think it's hard to argue for such a high placing.

He's in the top 10 British fighters of all time at any weight, though, without a doubt. And it's hard to choose between him and Benny Lynch for #1 Scottish fighter of all time.

Dave Rado
05-16-2011, 09:57 PM
Buchanan is certainly worthy of the HOF. But he isn't even close to top 10 all time at 135.

Depends on your definition of "close". I've never seen an ATG list from a credible source that has him outside the top 20, and some have him in the top 15. That's fairly close as I define the word "close".

IronDanHamza
05-16-2011, 10:06 PM
Buchanan is certainly worthy of the HOF. But he isn't even close to top 10 all time at 135.

I don't see why not. There are plenty of people who consider him to be so.

I mean, he was considered to be a Top 10 fighter at LW for 8 consecutive years, 7 of them Top 5 and 2 of them the Lineal Champion of the world. In an excellent era of Lightweights.

Beat;

Maurice Cullen
Frankie Navarez
Al Ford
Carlos Ortiz (past prime)
Carlos Hernandez
Ismael Laguna x2
Ruben Navarro
Jim Watt
Antoino Puddu

Pretty solid list of names. Also considering Laguna is considered by some to be a Top 20-25 ATG LW.

2 title defences of his Lineage until he had probably the most terrible luck of any Lineal Lightweight Champion in history and just so happened to bump into Roberto Duran on his 3rd title defence.

Not saying that he is a sure fire Top 10 LW, not at all. The division is too deep for that considering places #9 and mainly #10 is open for huge debate. I garantee most of us in here have different people at #9 and #10.

Plently consider Buchanan to be a Top 15 ATG LW. I don't it's abserd for someone to have him at #10.

IronDanHamza
05-16-2011, 10:08 PM
Depends on your definition of "close". I've never seen an ATG list from a credible source that has him outside the top 20, and some have him in the top 15. That's fairly close as I define the word "close".

Precisely.

I have seen him in the Top 15 on plenty of respected lists.

I have also seen him in the top 10 here and there.

I don't think it's that abserd.

Wild Blue Yonda
05-17-2011, 01:09 AM
I do. Buchanan would never see the top-10 on my list.

Steak
05-17-2011, 01:35 AM
I wouldnt have him as top 10 at lightweight, but thats really only because Lightweight is probably the deepest division of all time overall...its either that or Welterweight. Had he been a bantamweight or something, then no doubt at all hed be top 5. but thats way too much speculation...

Buchanan had brilliant boxing ability and a very impressive ring IQ. Had there been no Roberto Duran around, he might have ruled Lightweight for a number of years. Although I must say him vs Esteban DeJesus would have been very, very interesting.

He would have beaten Marquez pretty easily if you ask me(just a bad style matchup), and although I believe Castillo might have given him fits I think he might still be able to walk away with the win.

RubenSonny
05-17-2011, 03:09 AM
He was an excellent lightweight IMO.

IronDanHamza
05-17-2011, 12:45 PM
I do. Buchanan would never see the top-10 on my list.

That's your opinion.

Many righfully consider him in the Top 15.

Bumping him down a few spaces doesn't sound abserb to me considering how long he was actually considered at the top of the LW division in an excellent career that included ATG LW's and possibly the greatest Lightweight ever.

Like I said, I can almost garantee everyone in this section will have differing #9 and #10. Some most of us won't agree with.

Barnburner
05-17-2011, 12:48 PM
That's your opinion.

Many righfully consider him in the Top 15.

Bumping him down a few spaces doesn't sound abserb to me considering how long he was actually considered at the top of the LW division in an excellent career that included ATG LW's and possibly the greatest Lightweight ever.

Like I said, I can almost garantee everyone in this section will have differing #9 and #10. Some most of us won't agree with.
I would say Benny Leonards era was the greatest, the reason I have him the LW king.

IronDanHamza
05-17-2011, 12:56 PM
I would say Benny Leonards era was the greatest, the reason I have him the LW king.

I meant he was in an excellent era which including arguablly the greatest Lightweight ever (Duran).

Barnburner
05-17-2011, 12:59 PM
I meant he was in an excellent era which including arguablly the greatest Lightweight ever (Duran).
Sorry about that, completely misread it. Anyway, How do you feel about the stoppage in the 13th? I think it's weird Duran was most certainly heading to a victory so I think it would be unfair to disqualify him but, he blasted him right in the testes and Ken had trouble p*ssing for years!

At first, I thought Ken was playing on it, but after the discovery of pain in later years it's difficult to deny the severety of that punch.

Won it from one Panama legend and lost it to a greater one.

IronDanHamza
05-17-2011, 01:10 PM
Sorry about that, completely misread it. Anyway, How do you feel about the stoppage in the 13th? I think it's weird Duran was most certainly heading to a victory so I think it would be unfair to disqualify him but, he blasted him right in the testes and Ken had trouble p*ssing for years!

At first, I thought Ken was playing on it, but after the discovery of pain in later years it's difficult to deny the severety of that punch.

Won it from one Panama legend and lost it to a greater one.

It was a foul, a brutal one.

But had Buchanan won by DQ, the wrong man would have won.

But it was a foul, and a bad one.

I honestly believe if he never happened to be in Duran's era he could have ruled that division. Shame.

Barnburner
05-17-2011, 01:12 PM
It was a foul, a brutal one.

But had Buchanan won by DQ, the wrong man wouldn't have won.

But it was a foul, and a bad one.

I honestly believe if he never happened to be in Duran's era he could have ruled that division. Shame.
I know, he's a relaly likeable guy, does a whole lot of stuff for charity and boxing clubs in Scotland.

House of Stone
05-17-2011, 01:30 PM
The guy was a warrior, unfortunately I've only seen the Duran fight and some other one on espn that I can't really remember so I don't know about rankings and stuff but judging from the duran fight the guy was good and would be well able to give pretty much anybody a real hard time

Pastrano
05-17-2011, 01:35 PM
tnx for all these insights boys...

was carlos ortiz still in his prime when ken beat him or was he already shot that time?

Carlos was shot for sure, it was his last fight. The once tough as nails brawler retired after only 6 rounds, that should say it all.

Ziggy Stardust
05-17-2011, 02:39 PM
I have Buchanan rated somewhere between 13 and 20: Not bad at all considering how loaded the division has been historically

Poet

Wild Blue Yonda
05-17-2011, 08:15 PM
That's your opinion.

Many righfully consider him in the Top 15.

Bumping him down a few spaces doesn't sound abserb to me considering how long he was actually considered at the top of the LW division in an excellent career that included ATG LW's and possibly the greatest Lightweight ever.

Like I said, I can almost garantee everyone in this section will have differing #9 and #10. Some most of us won't agree with.

You're right, that is my opinion. I cannot possibly see a case for him as top-10 material, & I am resolute on that --- he struggles to crack my top-20, being honest. If you notice, I have plenty of respect for Buchanan --- I'm not sleighting the man in the least, I am only speaking of what a hugely deep division (the best ever, IMO) Lightweight is historically.

BennyST
05-17-2011, 10:22 PM
Great, great fighter and very underrated by the majority of people. In his heyday, he was the height of grace and skill. A purists dream really. He was the antithesis of a Ricky Hatton though and would have run circles around someone like him.

As for where he rates, we all have to remember just how amazingly deep 135 is. Arguably the deepest division of all, so I'd have to say somewhere around 15-20 or so.

Without Duran (poor De Jesus and Buchanan), he'd have been the champ for a long time and would have gone down as much greater than he is today and actually be remembered for the great fighter he was instead of being remembered as the guy who had the title when Duran came along.

He should have actually been undefeated when he went in against Duran. His lone loss was a poor decision in Venezuela against the very fine champion, but hometown fighter Vasquez or whatever his name was. After that (Duran) he didn't lose again until fighting the great lightweight champ Ishimatsu. I think the Duran loss really took it's toll on him though, mentally and possibly physically too. It was a brutal fight and Duran was a true madman in that. He was fighting the 13th round as mad as someone in the first. Quite incredible to watch.

IronDanHamza
05-18-2011, 07:12 AM
You're right, that is my opinion. I cannot possibly see a case for him as top-10 material, & I am resolute on that --- he struggles to crack my top-20, being honest. If you notice, I have plenty of respect for Buchanan --- I'm not sleighting the man in the least, I am only speaking of what a hugely deep division (the best ever, IMO) Lightweight is historically.

I agree, it's also the deepest division ever in my opinion. I understand that.

But that's why, atleast the last few spaces, could be debated forever.

Maybe I'm holding him in slightly too high regard, but I think Top 15 is absolutely reasonable. A few spaces higher isn't abserd, to me.