View Full Version : Tunney's all time heanyweight ranking?


JAB5239
05-02-2011, 10:57 PM
I found this ridiculous list on another site and it got me to thinking about where Gene Tunney should really rank amongst the heavyweight greats.

1/. Muhammad Ali
2/. Jack Dempsey
3/. Joe Louis
4/. George Foreman
5/. Jack Johnson
6/. Joe Frazier
7/. Gene Tunney
8/. Sonny Liston
9/. Rocky Marciano
10/. Mike Tyson

Besides beating a 3 year inactive Jack Dempsey, the fighting marine beat no one really noteworthy of such lofty status at heavyweight to be ranked above Liston, Marciano, Tyson, Lewis or even Ezzard Charles for that matter. Based on accomplishment at heavyweight I don't think Tunney makes the top 20. Opinions?

$Natedatpkid$
05-02-2011, 11:11 PM
I totally agree with that. I don't really think to kindly when I see him around the top 10. He should have lost that 2nd dempsey fight hands down. He got knocked out.

I actually dont think that's the craziest list Ive ever seen list. Definitely seen way worst haha It's not too crazy. Maybe switch a few of the names around, maybe add a person or 2. I mean Tyson shouldn't be there yet maybe Frazier at best be mentioned possibly fighting for the last spot or 2.

I think Ali's is the greatest Heavyweight ever. With Joe Louis a damn close 2nd. Then probably Dempsey. Thats my top 3 atleast.

JAB5239
05-02-2011, 11:22 PM
I totally agree with that. I don't really think to kindly when I see him around the top 10. He should have lost that 2nd dempsey fight hands down. He got knocked out.

I actually dont think that's the craziest list Ive ever seen list. Definitely seen way worst haha It's not too crazy. Maybe switch a few of the names around, maybe add a person or 2. I mean Tyson shouldn't be there yet maybe Frazier at best be mentioned possibly fighting for the last spot or 2.

I think Ali's is the greatest Heavyweight ever. With Joe Louis a damn close 2nd. Then probably Dempsey. Thats my top 3 atleast.

Tunney and Dempsey are WAY to high. Dempsey ducked his two biggest challenges. How the hell can he rank above Joe Louis? Ludicrous.

Larry Holmes should be in there. Holyfeild and Lewis to, in my opinion.

I would also put Norton, Patterson, Schmeling, Jeffries, Walcott, Baer, Langford, Wills and maybe even (can't believe Im going to actually say it) Wlad above him at heavyweight, and maybe others

$Natedatpkid$
05-02-2011, 11:29 PM
Tunney and Dempsey are WAY to high. Dempsey ducked his two biggest challenges. How the hell can he rank above Joe Louis? Ludicrous.

Larry Holmes should be in there. Holyfeild and Lewis to, in my opinion.

I would also put Norton, Patterson, Schmeling, Jeffries, Walcott, Baer, Langford, Wills and maybe even (can't believe Im going to actually say it) Wlad above him at heavyweight, and maybe others

Holy ***** man hahaha I might actually put Vital in front of Wlad because he did fight Lewis and took him to war. Losses too Bryd & Lewis I don't think are as bad then losses to Sanders, Brewster, and Purrity. But I don't know if I'd put them that high yet haha

I agree with Holmes and Holyfield. Holyfield damn near fought everybody across a few decades haha. Ken Norton definitely don't ever get no love even though he was a nightmare for boxers. Just them damn heavy hitters that got to him.

DarkTerror88
05-02-2011, 11:29 PM
I don't rate tunney at HW

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Jack Dempsey
5. George Foreman
6. Joe Frazier
7. Sonny Liston
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Larry Holmes
10. Mike Tyson
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Lennox Lewis
14. Floyd Patterson
15. Max Baer
16. James Jeffries
17. Gentleman Jim Corbett
18. Max Schmeling
19. Jersey Joe Walcott
20. Bowe/Fitzimmons

I don't think Tunney makes it. Very good LHW though

JAB5239
05-02-2011, 11:34 PM
I don't rate tunney at HW

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Jack Dempsey
5. George Foreman
6. Joe Frazier
7. Sonny Liston
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Larry Holmes
10. Mike Tyson
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Lennox Lewis
14. Floyd Patterson
15. Max Baer
16. James Jeffries
17. Gentleman Jim Corbett
18. Max Schmeling
19. Jersey Joe Walcott
20. Bowe/Fitzimmons

I don't think Tunney makes it. Very good LHW though

He was a tremendous light heavyweight, but his accomplishments and lack of longevity at heavyweight prevent him from being anywhere near the top in my opinion.

Scott9945
05-03-2011, 12:14 AM
He was a tremendous light heavyweight, but his accomplishments and lack of longevity at heavyweight prevent him from being anywhere near the top in my opinion.

That's reasonable. You can make a decent case for Tunney beating some of the others on the list, but his record at heavyweight is too sparse to rate him there.

JAB5239
05-03-2011, 12:33 AM
That's reasonable. You can make a decent case for Tunney beating some of the others on the list, but his record at heavyweight is too sparse to rate him there.


Whats your opinion of Dempsey being ranked #2?

Scott9945
05-03-2011, 12:52 AM
Whats your opinion of Dempsey being ranked #2?

Like many others, I have Ali and Louis in the top two spots. I can be a lot more flexible after that.

Ziggy Stardust
05-03-2011, 03:03 AM
It makes about as much sense as ranking Roy Jones there. Tunney had what, maybe a half a dozen fights at Heavyweight out of a 60+ fight career? It just doesn't make any sense. I guess there's too much of a "once a Heavyweight always a Heavyweight" kind of mentality but hell, you see some of our weight jumpers of recent vintage like De La Hoya and Mosley getting ranked at weights where they stopped for a couple of fights at best.

Poet

Barnburner
05-03-2011, 04:06 AM
I don't rate tunney at HW

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Jack Dempsey
5. George Foreman
6. Joe Frazier
7. Sonny Liston
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Larry Holmes
10. Mike Tyson
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Lennox Lewis
14. Floyd Patterson
15. Max Baer
16. James Jeffries
17. Gentleman Jim Corbett
18. Max Schmeling
19. Jersey Joe Walcott
20. Bowe/Fitzimmons

I don't think Tunney makes it. Very good LHW though
Good list, I just don't see how Jack Johnson gets ranked so high by everyone.

mickey malone
05-03-2011, 07:08 AM
Style-wise, Tunney's one of my all time favs and it's pretty tempting to overrate him at hw. Facts are facts though and i agree with the majority that he didn't spend long enough in the division to earn a top 10 rating. I do feel his wins over Dempsey get underrated though, because apart from 'the long count' it's hard to give Jack a single round. For some peculiar reason (?) both fights were contested over 10 which i suppose is another good reason not to rank him at heavy, especially as they were his most prominent wins. Besides, i think a prime Dempsey would've stood a great chance of stopping him late. As one poster already points out, Gene should've been ko'd in their 1st fight and had Dempsey been ring-sharp would've realized the rules had been changed and took to a neutral corner.

I doubt they'd be too much argument in ranking him as a top 5 lhwt. Imo, only Ezzard Charles should be above him. I think he'd have been too clever for Spinks, Foster, Qawi and quite possibly, would'a hit too hard for Jones.

As a strange coincidence, neither Tunney or Charles were ever titlists at 175 which i believe this was due to both having to attend Military Service.

New England
05-03-2011, 08:35 AM
I found this ridiculous list on another site and it got me to thinking about where Gene Tunney should really rank amongst the heavyweight greats.

1/. Muhammad Ali
2/. Jack Dempsey
3/. Joe Louis
4/. George Foreman
5/. Jack Johnson
6/. Joe Frazier
7/. Gene Tunney
8/. Sonny Liston
9/. Rocky Marciano
10/. Mike Tyson

Besides beating a 3 year inactive Jack Dempsey, the fighting marine beat no one really noteworthy of such lofty status at heavyweight to be ranked above Liston, Marciano, Tyson, Lewis or even Ezzard Charles for that matter. Based on accomplishment at heavyweight I don't think Tunney makes the top 20. Opinions?



that's just a wild list of men
some guy rattled off the top ten HW's he could think of, probably whilst on the sauce
and mistakenly threw in gene tunney


i love the guy,
but george foreman at numba fo?
really?

CarlosG815
05-03-2011, 11:33 AM
Tunney and Dempsey are WAY to high. Dempsey ducked his two biggest challenges. How the hell can he rank above Joe Louis? Ludicrous.

Larry Holmes should be in there. Holyfeild and Lewis to, in my opinion.

I would also put Norton, Patterson, Schmeling, Jeffries, Walcott, Baer, Langford, Wills and maybe even (can't believe Im going to actually say it) Wlad above him at heavyweight, and maybe others

In all honesty it is far more ludicrous to have Lennox ranked 5 than to have Dempsey 2 or Tunney 7. Unlike Lennox, a strong case can be made for Dempsey to be ranked in the top 5 as his greatness is well known by all boxing historians, whereas Lennox is a highly debatable fighter for his glass chin, bad footwork and questionable resume of has beens and early one punch knockouts to journeyman fighters that no other great in history would have succumbed to.

This is a very good article, give it a read.

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey/MC_HolmesLewis.htm

The more time goes on, the more people forget the greatness of Jack Dempsey. In no way is Lennox close to the caliber of Jack Dempsey.

CarlosG815
05-03-2011, 11:48 AM
A little on Jack Dempsey
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/jdempsey.html

mickey malone
05-03-2011, 12:58 PM
In all honesty it is far more ludicrous to have Lennox ranked 5 than to have Dempsey 2 or Tunney 7. Unlike Lennox, a strong case can be made for Dempsey to be ranked in the top 5 as his greatness is well known by all boxing historians, whereas Lennox is a highly debatable fighter for his glass chin, bad footwork and questionable resume of has beens and early one punch knockouts to journeyman fighters that no other great in history would have succumbed to.

This is a very good article, give it a read.

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey/MC_HolmesLewis.htm

The more time goes on, the more people forget the greatness of Jack Dempsey. In no way is Lennox close to the caliber of Jack Dempsey.
...........:sleeping:..........:sleeping:......... .:sleeping:..........:sleeping:.........

Vadrigar.
05-03-2011, 01:11 PM
I found this ridiculous list on another site and it got me to thinking about where Gene Tunney should really rank amongst the heavyweight greats.

1/. Muhammad Ali
2/. Jack Dempsey
3/. Joe Louis
4/. George Foreman
5/. Jack Johnson
6/. Joe Frazier
7/. Gene Tunney
8/. Sonny Liston
9/. Rocky Marciano
10/. Mike Tyson

Besides beating a 3 year inactive Jack Dempsey, the fighting marine beat no one really noteworthy of such lofty status at heavyweight to be ranked above Liston, Marciano, Tyson, Lewis or even Ezzard Charles for that matter. Based on accomplishment at heavyweight I don't think Tunney makes the top 20. Opinions?

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Joe Frazier
7. Evander Holyfield
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Sonny Liston
10. Jack Johnson

Your list sounds like a Bert Sugar list. He's quite big on Jack Dempsey

Vadrigar.
05-03-2011, 01:11 PM
...........:sleeping:..........:sleeping:......... .:sleeping:..........

:lol1: why?

The_Demon
05-03-2011, 01:14 PM
...........:sleeping:..........:sleeping:......... .:sleeping:..........:sleeping:.........

Haha i was thinking the same

Its sad how much one guy can repeat themselves over and over again,its quite worrying how somebody can be so obsessive

Vadrigar.
05-03-2011, 01:16 PM
Haha i was thinking the same

Its sad how much one guy can repeat themselves over and over again,its quite worrying how somebody can be so obsessive

That sounded like a sonnyboy style post.

Ziggy Stardust
05-03-2011, 02:40 PM
Haha i was thinking the same

Its sad how much one guy can repeat themselves over and over again,its quite worrying how somebody can be so obsessive

I like this one:
:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

JAB5239
05-03-2011, 02:49 PM
In all honesty it is far more ludicrous to have Lennox ranked 5 than to have Dempsey 2 or Tunney 7. Unlike Lennox, a strong case can be made for Dempsey to be ranked in the top 5 as his greatness is well known by all boxing historians, whereas Lennox is a highly debatable fighter for his glass chin, bad footwork and questionable resume of has beens and early one punch knockouts to journeyman fighters that no other great in history would have succumbed to.

This is a very good article, give it a read.

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey/MC_HolmesLewis.htm

The more time goes on, the more people forget the greatness of Jack Dempsey. In no way is Lennox close to the caliber of Jack Dempsey.

Funny thing is you criticize Lewis for the same things Dempsey did as champion. Dempsey ducked both Greb and Wills. He was knocked out by Flynn who was coming off 5 straight losses. He only defended the title 7 times in 8 years. He fought Greb's leftovers. These are facts my friend. Lennox at least beat an at or close to prime all time great in Holyfield. I hold that in much higher regard than any single win of the wonderful Dempsey. I've mentioned these things before yet you chose to ignore them. With all due respect, I see a lot of hypocrisy going on.

Vadrigar.
05-03-2011, 02:52 PM
Funny thing is you criticize Lewis for the same things Dempsey did as champion. Dempsey ducked both Greb and Wills. He was knocked out by Flynn who was coming off 5 straight losses. He only defended the title 7 times in 8 years. He fought Greb's leftovers. These are facts my friend. Lennox at least beat an at or close to prime all time great in Holyfield. I hold that in much higher regard than any single win of the wonderful Dempsey. I've mentioned these things before yet you chose to ignore them. With all due respect, I see a lot of hypocrisy going on.

What do you think of my list?

JAB5239
05-03-2011, 02:53 PM
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Joe Frazier
7. Evander Holyfield
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Sonny Liston
10. Jack Johnson

Your list sounds like a Bert Sugar list. He's quite big on Jack Dempsey

No, no, thats not my list. This is my list.


1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. Jack Johnson
5. Lennox Lewis
6. George Foreman
7. Mike Tyson
8. Sonny Liston
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Rocky Marciano
11. Jack Dempsey
12. Joe Frazier

JAB5239
05-03-2011, 02:57 PM
What do you think of my list?

Its a good, respectable list. I think Marciano and Frazier are a bit high and Johnson to low, but its all subjective.

IronDanHamza
05-03-2011, 03:08 PM
Gene Tunney is not Top 10 HW material. It's ridiculous to claim otherwise.

Vadrigar.
05-03-2011, 03:22 PM
Its a good, respectable list. I think Marciano and Frazier are a bit high and Johnson to low, but its all subjective.

Thanks, I was actually thinking of switching Marciano and Johnson around. On yours I think Foreman should be ahead of Lewis and Frazier should take Tyson's place, but as you said it is really subjective.

Speaking of Gene Tunney, no way is he a top 10 ATG. Who's the author of the list you posted?

JAB5239
05-03-2011, 03:26 PM
In all honesty it is far more ludicrous to have Lennox ranked 5 than to have Dempsey 2 or Tunney 7. Unlike Lennox, a strong case can be made for Dempsey to be ranked in the top 5 as his greatness is well known by all boxing historians, whereas Lennox is a highly debatable fighter for his glass chin, bad footwork and questionable resume of has beens and early one punch knockouts to journeyman fighters that no other great in history would have succumbed to.

This is a very good article, give it a read.

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey/MC_HolmesLewis.htm

The more time goes on, the more people forget the greatness of Jack Dempsey. In no way is Lennox close to the caliber of Jack Dempsey.

Lol, I got all the way down to the part where he said LL's physique was "obviously" influenced by steroids and I stopped reading. That one ridiculous claim, with no proof to support it, undermines everything else he said in my opinion.

Vadrigar.
05-03-2011, 03:29 PM
Lol, I got all the way down to the part where he said LL's physique was "obviously" influenced by steroids and I stopped reading. That one ridiculous claim, with no proof to support it, undermines everything else he said in my opinion.

haha there's about as much evidence as LL being a fruit as him juicing.

JAB5239
05-03-2011, 03:35 PM
Thanks, I was actually thinking of switching Marciano and Johnson around. On yours I think Foreman should be ahead of Lewis and Frazier should take Tyson's place, but as you said it is really subjective.

I've thought of switching the two but Lennox has a better winning resume in my opinion. I wouldn't argue with anyone's decision to put Lennox anywhere between 5 and 11, but firmly believe he belongs no lower.

Speaking of Gene Tunney, no way is he a top 10 ATG. Who's the author of the list you posted?

The list is actually from another forum and I wouldn't want to embarrass anyone.

Barnburner
05-03-2011, 03:44 PM
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Joe Frazier
7. Evander Holyfield
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Sonny Liston
10. Jack Johnson

Your list sounds like a Bert Sugar list. He's quite big on Jack Dempsey
Good list. I agree with your stance on Jack Johnson as stated earlier but, maybe not quite so low.

JAB5239
05-03-2011, 03:46 PM
haha there's about as much evidence as LL being a fruit as him juicing.

There is a chance. There is a chance everybody else has and will continue to do it to. But when you say it's obvious and there isn't a shred of proof, that leads me to believe you have a biased agenda. Mike Casey is a wonderful historian and I respect his work, but no man is perfect and I disagree with him on this particular subject.

Ziggy Stardust
05-03-2011, 03:47 PM
Lol, I got all the way down to the part where he said LL's physique was "obviously" influenced by steroids and I stopped reading. That one ridiculous claim, with no proof to support it, undermines everything else he said in my opinion.

While I have my suspicions that most fighters post-1990 especially Heavyweights used some form of PEDs, being suspicious and knowing are two different things and I'm loath to point the finger at anyone in particular by name without having some rock-solid proof. Even with Evander there's only suspicion and no real proof (the "Evan Fields" stuff is suggestive but not iron-clad).

Poet

JAB5239
05-03-2011, 03:52 PM
While I have my suspicions that most fighters post-1990 especially Heavyweights used some form of PED, being suspicious and knowing are two different things and I'm loath to point thge finger at anyone in particular by name without having some rock-solid proof. Even with Evander there's only suspicion and no real proof (the "Evan Fields" stuff is suggestive but not iron-clad).

Poet

This is exactly how I feel.

Vadrigar.
05-03-2011, 03:54 PM
While I have my suspicions that most fighters post-1990 especially Heavyweights used some form of PEDs, being suspicious and knowing are two different things and I'm loath to point the finger at anyone in particular by name without having some rock-solid proof. Even with Evander there's only suspicion and no real proof (the "Evan Fields" stuff is suggestive but not iron-clad).

Poet

Why post-1990?

Ziggy Stardust
05-03-2011, 03:58 PM
Why post-1990?

Because that's when it really became rampant in practically all sports. Certainly there were examples of PED use in sports in the 70s and 80s (think Lyle Alzado) but it didn't really explode and become pervasive until the late 80s - early 90s.

Poet

SBleeder
05-03-2011, 05:07 PM
Like others here, I don't rank Tunney as a heavyweight. I do consider him one of the top 5 light-heavyweights of all time.

Although, if you're an anally-retentive type... Gene Tunney is the last lineal heavyweight champion of the world. No one ever took the title from him. So technically, everyone since him has been a paper champion.

CarlosG815
05-03-2011, 07:27 PM
Anybody can make a list and justify their reasons for why a person is where they are based on that person's criteria for making a list.

My point is that it is no more ludicrous that have Dempsey 2 (which many historians have him rated very highly) and Tunney 7 than it is to have Lennox Lewis rated at #5. To me, it is even MORE ridiculous to have Lewis at 5 than to see Dempsey at 2 and Tunney at 7. Tunney's win's over Dempsey, although Dempsey was far past it, is still better than any win Lennox has, and he looked more impressive doing it. And Dempsey's career speaks for itself. Far trumps Lewis'. Stomps Lewis' career into the dirt.

Jab you speak so negatively about rumors you have read about Dempsey fighting leftovers, yet you give Lennox a pass and put him on a pedestal. Why?

Scott9945
05-03-2011, 08:46 PM
I like this one:
:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

The dead horse beating works for me. Some topics here are this forum's version of Mayweather-Pacquiao. How many times can the same people repeat the same opinions?

bklynboy
05-03-2011, 10:33 PM
It makes about as much sense as ranking Roy Jones there. Tunney had what, maybe a half a dozen fights at Heavyweight out of a 60+ fight career?
Poet

I disagree. Tunney ended up in the heavyweight division and stayed there for the last 3 years of his career. He also retired young at age 30 or maybe just turning 31. He could EASILY (but didn't) have fought another 2-3 years and have had 10 title defenses under his belt. He retired at the peak of his career to get married.


I think its the coulda/woulda been aspect that makes it very difficult. Going by resume he isn't a TOP 20. Going by fantasy (that he would have dominated the heavyweight division for a few years) that he would have easily beaten Sharkey and would only have had trouble with a Schmeling I can easily see him in the TOP 20 if not TOP 15 if not TOP 10.

You can say it's only fantasy but so is arguing whether Tyson could have beaten a prime Holmes (YES) or Holyfield (Don't Know) or any other ranking system.

I think that Tunney is vastly underrated.

All this "fantasy" ranking assumes two things -- that he was NOT knocked out in Dempsey-Tunney II and that it's reasonable to assume that he coulda/shoulda/woulda have dominated the division for another 2-3 years. In which case he would have fought as heavyweight for half his career and would have 10-15 title defenses.

Ziggy Stardust
05-03-2011, 10:44 PM
I disagree. Tunney ended up in the heavyweight division and stayed there for the last 3 years of his career. He also retired young at age 30 or maybe just turning 31. He could EASILY (but didn't) have fought another 2-3 years and have had 10 title defenses under his belt. He retired at the peak of his career to get married.


I think its the coulda/woulda been aspect that makes it very difficult. Going by resume he isn't a TOP 20. Going by fantasy (that he would have dominated the heavyweight division for a few years) that he would have easily beaten Sharkey and would only have had trouble with a Schmeling I can easily see him in the TOP 20 if not TOP 15 if not TOP 10.

You can say it's only fantasy but so is arguing whether Tyson could have beaten a prime Holmes (YES) or Holyfield (Don't Know) or any other ranking system.

I think that Tunney is vastly underrated.

All this "fantasy" ranking assumes two things -- that he was NOT knocked out in Dempsey-Tunney II and that it's reasonable to assume that he coulda/shoulda/woulda have dominated the division for another 2-3 years. In which case he would have fought as heavyweight for half his career and would have 10-15 title defenses.

Going by THAT logic then why not rank Jones top-10 all-time at Heavy since he "woulda, shoulda, coulda" dominated the bums fighting in the division.....maybe becaus he was only there for fight? One fight or six fights, either way they weren't in the division long enough to establish any kind of legitimate track record there to get ranked. Hell, lets rank Hagler top-10 at Light-Heavy! He never fought there but he woulda, shoulda, coulda cleaned up on those mid-80s scubs :rolleyes9:

Poet

bklynboy
05-03-2011, 10:51 PM
Going by THAT logic then why not rank Jones top-10 all-time at Heavy since he "woulda, shoulda, coulda" dominated the bums fighting in the division.....maybe becaus he was only there for fight? One fight or six fights, either way they weren't in the division long enough to establish any kind of legitimate track record there to get ranked. Hell, lets rank Hagler top-10 at Light-Heavy! He never fought there but he woulda, shoulda, coulda cleaned up on those mid-80s scubs :rolleyes9:

Poet

Yeah, I'm conflicted. I rate Greb high but have no video of him. How good was Wills, Ketchel, Corbett? I penalize Jones, Calzaghe and Lewis for picking and choosing their fights and for ignoring prime opponents and yet I don't penalize Tunney for marrying and retiring.

Hypocrisy. I hope not. Foolishness, maybe. :-)

Grand Champ
05-03-2011, 11:52 PM
Someone tell me why Tyson is a top 10? youngest HW champ.. He beat LHW Spinks and Holmes (who just had lost twice to spinks before they met) lost his big fights against Holyfield, Lewis and Douglas.

Tyson was there for entertainment value but a top 10 ATG I never seen him as.

JAB5239
05-04-2011, 02:05 AM
Anybody can make a list and justify their reasons for why a person is where they are based on that person's criteria for making a list.

My point is that it is no more ludicrous that have Dempsey 2 (which many historians have him rated very highly) and Tunney 7 than it is to have Lennox Lewis rated at #5. To me, it is even MORE ridiculous to have Lewis at 5 than to see Dempsey at 2 and Tunney at 7. Tunney's win's over Dempsey, although Dempsey was far past it, is still better than any win Lennox has, and he looked more impressive doing it. And Dempsey's career speaks for itself. Far trumps Lewis'. Stomps Lewis' career into the dirt.

Jab you speak so negatively about rumors you have read about Dempsey fighting leftovers, yet you give Lennox a pass and put him on a pedestal. Why?

My friend, you have yet to answer my questions to the hypocrisy of your comparisons. It is a stated FACT that Dempsey never fought Wills nor Greb even though the public clamored for it. He instead fought several fighters Greb had not only already beaten, but thrashed. I've heard claims that Lewis ducked both Byrd and Ruiz even though there was no public calling for either fight AND he fought and beat much better fighters than them in his career. Im sorry, but that is a double standard.

Its true that I hold Lewis in high regard, but hardly pedestal worthy. Those accolades are reserved strictly for Louis and Ali at heavyweight. But Lewis did beat every man he ever fought and proved when he didn't take a fight lightly he was totally dominant over the only two men to beat him. Dempsey, as great as he was, did the same thing with Flynn, but you conveniently over look that. Dempsey fought beat two ranked heavies as champion, Gibbons (who Greb had already beaten) and Firpo. Miske had beaten 1 legitimate heavyweight (Bill Brennen) and had won only 1 of his 6 previous fights. He fought a stable mate, Jimmy Darcy in a 4 round fight.He beat lightheavyweight Carpentier, who Greb had already beaten and beat Sharkey (good win) between the Tunney losses. Earlier in his career he had some good wins, but are they really that much better than the ranked fighters (by The Ring magazine) that Lewis beat through out his career?

Bottom line is Dempsey is lauded for his ferocity in the ring, and rightfully so. But if you look more closely at his record he can be as easily criticized as Lewis, and his failure to fight the two best fighters of the time (outside of Tunney) are huge strikes against him.I have no problem with Dempsey being toward the end of anyones top 10, but ranking him two is unrealistic in my opinion when you consider everything. Much of his lofty status is because he was such an icon of the 20's.

He was a great fighter and great for the sport, but he sports massive gaps in my opinion.

mickey malone
05-04-2011, 04:36 AM
Like others here, I don't rank Tunney as a heavyweight. I do consider him one of the top 5 light-heavyweights of all time.

Although, if you're an anally-retentive type... Gene Tunney is the last lineal heavyweight champion of the world. No one ever took the title from him. So technically, everyone since him has been a paper champion.
Don't forget Lewis lol

GJC
05-04-2011, 08:59 AM
Anybody can make a list and justify their reasons for why a person is where they are based on that person's criteria for making a list.

My point is that it is no more ludicrous that have Dempsey 2 (which many historians have him rated very highly) and Tunney 7 than it is to have Lennox Lewis rated at #5. To me, it is even MORE ridiculous to have Lewis at 5 than to see Dempsey at 2 and Tunney at 7. Tunney's win's over Dempsey, although Dempsey was far past it, is still better than any win Lennox has, and he looked more impressive doing it. And Dempsey's career speaks for itself. Far trumps Lewis'. Stomps Lewis' career into the dirt.

Jab you speak so negatively about rumors you have read about Dempsey fighting leftovers, yet you give Lennox a pass and put him on a pedestal. Why?

My friend, you have yet to answer my questions to the hypocrisy of your comparisons. It is a stated FACT that Dempsey never fought Wills nor Greb even though the public clamored for it. He instead fought several fighters Greb had not only already beaten, but thrashed. I've heard claims that Lewis ducked both Byrd and Ruiz even though there was no public calling for either fight AND he fought and beat much better fighters than them in his career. Im sorry, but that is a double standard.

Its true that I hold Lewis in high regard, but hardly pedestal worthy. Those accolades are reserved strictly for Louis and Ali at heavyweight. But Lewis did beat every man he ever fought and proved when he didn't take a fight lightly he was totally dominant over the only two men to beat him. Dempsey, as great as he was, did the same thing with Flynn, but you conveniently over look that. Dempsey fought beat two ranked heavies as champion, Gibbons (who Greb had already beaten) and Firpo. Miske had beaten 1 legitimate heavyweight (Bill Brennen) and had won only 1 of his 6 previous fights. He fought a stable mate, Jimmy Darcy in a 4 round fight.He beat lightheavyweight Carpentier, who Greb had already beaten and beat Sharkey (good win) between the Tunney losses. Earlier in his career he had some good wins, but are they really that much better than the ranked fighters (by The Ring magazine) that Lewis beat through out his career?

Bottom line is Dempsey is lauded for his ferocity in the ring, and rightfully so. But if you look more closely at his record he can be as easily criticized as Lewis, and his failure to fight the two best fighters of the time (outside of Tunney) are huge strikes against him.I have no problem with Dempsey being toward the end of anyones top 10, but ranking him two is unrealistic in my opinion when you consider everything. Much of his lofty status is because he was such an icon of the 20's.

He was a great fighter and great for the sport, but he sports massive gaps in my opinion.
Broadly agree, I'd have Dempsey top 5 but I factor in historical impact too. Don't think Carpentier ever fought Greb though, think he would have fought the Germans again before going near Greb

JAB5239
05-04-2011, 11:03 AM
[QUOTE=JAB5239;10474586]
Broadly agree, I'd have Dempsey top 5 but I factor in historical impact too. Don't think Carpentier ever fought Greb though, think he would have fought the Germans again before going near Greb

You're right, my mistake. Greb had tried to get a Carpentier fight several times for the world light heavyweight title only to be avoided. Good catch GJC.