View Full Version : Calzaghe vs Dawson at 175 lbs


Toney616
04-29-2011, 07:46 AM
Athletic Attributes:
Power: Dawson
Hand speed: Equal
Reach: Dawson

Technical Attributes:
Defense: Dawson
Offense: ?
Combination punching: Dawson
Jab: Dawson
Footwork: Dawson

Other:
Workrate: Calzaghe
Intangibles: Equal
Boxing IQ: Calzaghe

Weight:
175 lbs (fight takes place after Jones-Calzaghe)

Blueprint fight:
Dawson vs Johnson I
Dawson never thought anyone like Calzaghe, but Johnson was solid defensively and kept pressuring Dawson like Calzaghe would

Thoughts?

Uturn
04-29-2011, 07:49 AM
Calzaghe. I think he'd win quite comfortably to be honet. He'd outwork Dawson and grind him down in the latter half. Calzaghe by UD.

Toney616
04-29-2011, 07:58 AM
Calzaghe. I think he'd win quite comfortably to be honest. He'd outwork Dawson and grind him down in the latter half. Calzaghe by UD.
I could see this happening, but how do you think Calzaghe copes with Dawson's combination punching?

It would of been an exciting fight, its a shame it didn't happen

SCtrojansbaby
04-29-2011, 08:06 AM
It depends Dawson has no killer instinct if he did he would be just about unbeatable. So yeah there is a chance Dawson starts slow only to knockout him out in the last 3 rounds(what should of happen against Pascal) but Dawson if on can out class ANYBODY.

Toney616
04-29-2011, 08:10 AM
It depends Dawson has no killer instinct

Which is something he has to work on

if he did he would be just about unbeatable. So yeah there is a chance Dawson starts slow only to knockout him out in the last 3 rounds(what should of happen against Pascal) but Dawson if on can out class ANYBODY.
What makes you think he can ko Calzaghe?

SCtrojansbaby
04-29-2011, 08:31 AM
Which is something he has to work on

What makes you think he can ko Calzaghe?


I think Dawson is that talented if he had that killer instinct he would be the best.

Toney616
04-29-2011, 08:34 AM
I think Dawson is that talented if he had that killer instinct he would be the best.
Do you think Manny Steward is a step in the right direction?

The_Demon
04-29-2011, 08:58 AM
Didnt think much of Calzaghe at LHW too be honest,Dawson would have caused him a lot of problems especially in the first half of the fight,but id imagine joe too grind out a close UD

SCtrojansbaby
04-29-2011, 09:02 AM
Do you think Manny Steward is a step in the right direction?


It is a slam dunk except that I am worried about how much attention Manny can give him. Manny seems to be training a lot of high priority guys these days

Toney616
04-29-2011, 09:04 AM
It is a slam dunk except that I am worried about how much attention Manny can give him. Manny seems to be training a lot of high priority guys these days
Ive never been to sure what to make of Manny, Dawson will be fighting soon so I guess we will have a chance to see.

Pastrano
04-29-2011, 09:58 AM
Nope, Dawson does not have better power than Calzaghe. But Joe would have his hands full with him still. Chad's handspeed, punch output and skill level, along with height and reach, would all be enough to make Joe sweat. I still think Joe had the edge in experience and ring iq. Very hard to predict who would win, it could go either way, but I think Joe could adjust to Chad's style like he did withevery other opponent and figure him out. Joe C by close UD.

Forza
04-29-2011, 05:05 PM
Thats a bad weight for joe but he would probably box that hype job's ears off for a UD

Boxing Bob
04-29-2011, 05:46 PM
I think Dawson wins 8 out of the 1st 10 rds and seems in control, but something happens in the late rds ( cut, flash knock down, low blow) that requires testicular fortitude to get through. I think Chad wilts under the pressure and quits on his stool between 11 and 12. Crazy??????

Ziggy Stardust
04-29-2011, 06:11 PM
Thats a bad weight for joe but he would probably box that hype job's ears off for a UD

Considering Calzaghe never "boxed the ears off" any fighter with a pulse you have no case that he'd do so with Dawson.

PS. Euro-peon minor-leaguers and washed up former champs are NOT fighters with pulses.

Poet

$Natedatpkid$
04-29-2011, 06:28 PM
This fight would never even happen. Unless Dawson turned 40+ then Joe might do it.

Old Roy & Old B-Hop put Calazaghe on his ass. He has no power whatsoever to make Dawson respect him. Dawson would do what a young B-Hop & young Roy Jones would have done to Calzaghe, Expose his ass and win a decision. Maybe even stop him.

Joe is a good fighter but not great. Like I said in another thread today, when you have 2 people with 20+ title defenses in the same weight class at the same time then you know their are some vagina & ducking issues. Joe was scared *****less of Glenn Johnson who would have knocked him out cold.

CiganoBoxer
04-29-2011, 06:35 PM
Love him or hate him but Calslappy would of out boxed Dawson pretty easily ....saying otherwise is obvious haterhate .

garryd
04-29-2011, 06:43 PM
Calzaghe deals with Dawson to take a UD points win :boxing: ..he would boxing rings around him with swarms of slaps :haha:

CiganoBoxer
04-29-2011, 06:46 PM
Calzaghe deals with Dawson to take a UD points win :boxing: ..he would boxing rings around him with swarms of slaps :haha:Maybe so ,but he still would of won tho :D

mickey malone
04-29-2011, 06:50 PM
Somebody correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think Joe ever fought a fellow southpaw so i'd slightly favour Dawson in this one.

New England
04-29-2011, 06:55 PM
Athletic Attributes:
Power: Dawson
Hand speed: Equal
Reach: Dawson

Technical Attributes:
Defense: Dawson
Offense: ?
Combination punching: Dawson
Jab: Dawson
Footwork: Dawson

Other:
Workrate: Calzaghe
Intangibles: Equal
Boxing IQ: Calzaghe

Weight:
175 lbs (fight takes place after Jones-Calzaghe)

Blueprint fight:
Dawson vs Johnson I
Dawson never thought anyone like Calzaghe, but Johnson was solid defensively and kept pressuring Dawson like Calzaghe would

Thoughts?


calzaghe fought in a more offensive manner, but he was ceratainly not easy to hit. dawson's defense relies heavily on longer range and backing up. that doesnt impress me as heavily as does calzaghe, who is difficult to hit while being aggressive and in range (with his hands down)

if dawson does get forced into a fight he's been relatively open defensively, and gets tagged and effected
joe would fight back harder when hurt. he managed to remain undefeated, so i'm going with him easily on the intangibles. calzaghe remained one of the most confident fighters i've seen throughout his entire career.

i'll say that i think calaghe threw more effective combinations. there were more of them, they came from everywhere
dawson makes a man miss, but doesnt make him pay
joe made em pay with combinations

Forza
04-29-2011, 07:33 PM
eubank collins bika kessler BHOP ( who is still fighting for belts 4 years later ), RJJ ( who is like a year older only ) jeff lacy ( undefeated, next "mike tyson" )

Yup, joe never fought anyone with a pulse.

Joe beats all your favorites, on any day, in the ring or on the street.

.G.
04-29-2011, 07:39 PM
dawson lost to pascal :lol1: yeah let's get real here, dawson would get embarrassed for 12 rounds. dawson doesn't even have any heart. as soon as calzaghe puts that whooping on dawson, he will just take it all night long

.G.
04-29-2011, 07:45 PM
This fight would never even happen. Unless Dawson turned 40+ then Joe might do it.

Old Roy & Old B-Hop put Calazaghe on his ass. He has no power whatsoever to make Dawson respect him. Dawson would do what a young B-Hop & young Roy Jones would have done to Calzaghe, Expose his ass and win a decision. Maybe even stop him.

Joe is a good fighter but not great. Like I said in another thread today, when you have 2 people with 20+ title defenses in the same weight class at the same time then you know their are some vagina & ducking issues. Joe was scared *****less of Glenn Johnson who would have knocked him out cold.

a hopkins 3 years on from calzaghe almost beat pascal. joe beat hopkins with ease and don't forget pascal beat that useless dawson.

Joe calzaghe > Dawson and it's not even close

Mugwump
04-29-2011, 08:25 PM
Dawson's got talent. But ability will only get you so far. The key question - is he a champion? I'm not talking about belts. Belts are handed out like cakes to all manner of average fighters these days. When he's got his boot on an opponent's throat can he finish the job? More importantly, can he overcome being on the verge of defeat and win - against quality opposition?

Joe answered these questions repeatedly throughout his career. So far the only answers Dawson's been able to come up with are the wrong ones.

Maybe he'll improve. But until he does I'll back Joe every time.

Scott9945
04-29-2011, 09:28 PM
Dawson's got talent. But ability will only get you so far. The key question - is he a champion? I'm not talking about belts. Belts are handed out like cakes to all manner of average fighters these days. When he's got his boot on an opponent's throat can he finish the job? More importantly, can he overcome being on the verge of defeat and win - against quality opposition?

Joe answered these questions repeatedly throughout his career. So far the only answers Dawson's been able to come up with are the wrong ones.

Maybe he'll improve. But until he does I'll back Joe every time.

Good comments. Dawson has the talent to beat anyone, but you would never catch Joe losing to someone like Pascal.

$Natedatpkid$
04-29-2011, 10:26 PM
a hopkins 3 years on from calzaghe almost beat pascal. joe beat hopkins with ease and don't forget pascal beat that useless dawson.

Joe calzaghe > Dawson and it's not even close

Nice triangle theory retard.

Styles makes fights which is why Hopkins can still hang with the best of them because of his style. Doesn't mean he's still a ****in P4P great like he was years ago. Your ****in slow if you think Hopkins couldn't beat Calzaghe in his prime and how was it with ease? Statistically it was the worst fight of Joe's life and how come 50% of the boxing world thinks Hopkins won?

Stop followin' me around you stupid racist ****. You never post in this section. You can't have my black dick so get the **** over ti and try to get a life.

Forza
04-29-2011, 10:33 PM
Nice triangle theory retard.

Styles makes fights which is why Hopkins can still hang with the best of them because of his style. Doesn't mean he's still a ****in P4P great like he was years ago. Your ****in slow if you think Hopkins couldn't beat Calzaghe in his prime and how was it with ease? Statistically it was the worst fight of Joe's life and how come 50% of the boxing world thinks Hopkins won?

Stop followin' me around you stupid racist ****. You never post in this section. You can't have my black dick so get the **** over ti and try to get a life.

Sounds like you're the racist one. Calzaghe was far out of his prime against bhop and still beat that black ass.

Only racist blacks think bhop won, it wasn;t even close fight. Face it calzaghe whoops you heros everyday all day.


" i would never lose to a white boy ", I bet you got that same attitude. Stay in soft ass PA.

$Natedatpkid$
04-29-2011, 10:38 PM
Sounds like you're the racist one. Calzaghe was far out of his prime against bhop and still beat that black ass.

Only racist blacks think bhop won, it wasn;t even close fight. Face it calzaghe whoops you heros everyday all day.


" i would never lose to a white boy ", I bet you got that same attitude. Stay in soft ass PA.

Hahahaha Gotta love alts. You must have tons of them.

Calzaghe has never been in the wars that would drain a fighter physically like Roy & Hopkins fool. When was that motha****er ever really challenged or took the tolls of war?

Roy & Hopkins fought hard against actual #1 contenders. They've fought the effects of war so that has taken the effect in old age. ****in Calzaghe wins constant BS early stoppages from slaps and cherry picked the **** out of his career.

Their's a reason he ducked Glenn Johnson 3 TIMES. He knew he'd get KTFO. So he waited until Roy & Hopkins were past it. Your hero is a ****in joke. How you gonna call somebody an all time great fighter who cherry picked his whole career and hid and england, then at the same time had 20 title defenses the same exact time as somebody else in the same division had 20 title defenses too. You know their's some pussay ass duckin' BS in that biitch.

I'm the racist? biitch your the only one making it obvious it was a fight between a black man and a white guy. I see Hopkins vs Calzaghe. You see racial hatred you worthless piece of *****.

Ziggy Stardust
04-30-2011, 01:59 AM
eubank collins bika kessler BHOP ( who is still fighting for belts 4 years later ), RJJ ( who is like a year older only ) jeff lacy

Eubank - Washed Up
Collins - Washed Up
Bika - A Nobody
Kessler - Eurofraud
BHOP - Washed Up
Jones - Completely Washed UP
Lacy - The only people calling him "the next Tyson" were morons.....kind of like you!

memento126
04-30-2011, 02:21 AM
Calzaghe is a great fighter no doubt too many haters out there. He would've beaten Glen easily I don't know about Roy and Bhop in their prime but it would certainly be very competitive match. He will adjust to Dawson's style and beat him by wide UD.

$Natedatpkid$
04-30-2011, 03:28 AM
Calzaghe is a great fighter no doubt too many haters out there. He would've beaten Glen easily I don't know about Roy and Bhop in their prime but it would certainly be very competitive match. He will adjust to Dawson's style and beat him by wide UD.

Then why did he duck Glenn 3x??????? 1 excuse is fine. Maybe you can live with a 2nd. But a 3rd time??? Now thats some straight pussay *****.

Have never seen Calzaghe adjust in any fight. He just swarms you with uncomfortable slaps to win decisions.

Bring It On
04-30-2011, 03:29 AM
Calzaghe by UD.

Toney616
04-30-2011, 09:16 AM
This fight would never even happen. Unless Dawson turned 40+ then Joe might do it.
Both Hopkins and Jones were offered fights around 2000-2002

Old Roy & Old B-Hop put Calazaghe on his ass. He has no power whatsoever to make Dawson respect him. Dawson would do what a young B-Hop & young Roy Jones would have done to Calzaghe, Expose his ass and win a decision. Maybe even stop him.
Calzaghe tended to be susceptible to right crosses during the first 3 rounds of fights, after that he tended to make the necessary adjustments to defend himself against them. You will notice that neither Kessler, Hopkins or Jones landed many right hands on him after round 4

Joe is a good fighter but not great. Like I said in another thread today, when you have 2 people with 20+ title defenses in the same weight class at the same time then you know their are some vagina & ducking issues..
Are you talking about Sven Ottke?

Joe was scared *****less of Glenn Johnson who would have knocked him out cold.
Not too sure what happened there, as the story goes Calzaghe had injury issues. Whether or not that was true, I don't know. I cant see Calzaghe getting koed by Johnson though

Toney616
04-30-2011, 09:18 AM
Then why did he duck Glenn 3x??????? 1 excuse is fine. Maybe you can live with a 2nd. But a 3rd time??? Now thats some straight pussay *****.

Have never seen Calzaghe adjust in any fight. He just swarms you with uncomfortable slaps to win decisions.
Watch the Kessler, Jones and Hopkins fights. He was consistently slipping Hopkins rights from around round 4 onwards. He was also slipping Jones right hand leads. He took away Kessler's right cross and right uppercut.

Toney616
04-30-2011, 09:19 AM
PS. Euro-peon minor-leaguers and washed up former champs are NOT fighters with pulses.

Poet
He beat the new Mike Tyson aka Jeff Lacy:alcoholic

.G.
04-30-2011, 09:27 AM
Watch the Kessler, Jones and Hopkins fights. He was consistently slipping Hopkins rights from around round 4 onwards. He was also slipping Jones right hand leads. He took away Kessler's right cross and right uppercut.

no point in explaining that to him. nate is a racist retard

SCtrojansbaby
04-30-2011, 09:34 AM
Watch the Kessler, Jones and Hopkins fights. He was consistently slipping Hopkins rights from around round 4 onwards. He was also slipping Jones right hand leads. He took away Kessler's right cross and right uppercut.


LOL my grandmother could slip Roy's punches at this point. Hopkins schooled him. But I give him credit for Kessler but LOL if that is Calzaghe's best win, Dawson's win over Adamek is more impressive

Toney616
04-30-2011, 09:38 AM
Calzaghe has never been in the wars that would drain a fighter physically like Roy & Hopkins fool. When was that motha****er ever really challenged or took the tolls of war?
What wars did Jones and Hopkins have?

Roy & Hopkins fought hard against actual #1 contenders.
The only decent mandatory Hopkins had was winky wright at 160. Hopkins refused to fight him and chose Jermain Taylor instead. As for Jones his best mandatories were:
Nunn(1998): Jones vacated the wbc lhw belt to avoid facing him
Tarver (2000):Jones wrote letters to the ibf to avoid having to face him
Tua(2003):
11.06 - David Tua wants Roy Jones. Tua 43-3-1 37ko's, the biggest puncher in the Heavyweight division wants to exercise his right as the highest ranked available fighter in the WBA and fight their Champion, Roy Jones.

In the past Jones has been quick to call out Tua, now there is only silence.
http://www.ea$tsideboxing.com/boxing-news/tua1006.php

The Surgeon
04-30-2011, 09:39 AM
Calzaghe is a fraud, i Cringe every time they say The Great Joe Calzaghe!

Dawson is a whatever fighter but he would have had a great shot at beating Joe....

I cant get that GIF of him windmilling slaps that all Miss against Hopkins outta my head he's terrible!

Toney616
04-30-2011, 09:43 AM
LOL my grandmother could slip Roy's punches at this point. Hopkins schooled him. But I give him credit for Kessler but LOL if that is Calzaghe's best win, Dawson's win over Adamek is more impressive
This was the point I was responding to.

Have never seen Calzaghe adjust in any fight.
I never said they were great wins I said they were fights which highlighted his ability to make adjustments

off topic: Hopkins's didn't school him, unless schooling means headbutting, overacting and holding for 12 rounds

Toney616
04-30-2011, 09:44 AM
no point in explaining that to him. nate is a racist retard
I get the impression that Calzaghe isn't his favorite fighter:frown:

RubenSonny
04-30-2011, 09:48 AM
What wars did Jones and Hopkins have?

The only decent mandatory Hopkins had was winky wright at 160. Hopkins refused to fight him and chose Jermain Taylor instead. As for Jones his best mandatories were:
Nunn(1998): Jones vacated the wbc lhw belt to avoid facing him
Tarver (2000):Jones wrote letters to the ibf to avoid having to face him
Tua(2003):


http://www.ea$tsideboxing.com/boxing-news/tua1006.php

Taylor fight was big at the time and most people were glad to see it get made, it clearly wasn't a duck, but it would of been a far better match-up then, than the fight that was made with Winky.

Nunn wasn't worthy of Jones at that point and did nothing to warrant a shot at him (the wbc rankings are absolute ****). Again, Tarver was inexperienced at that point and had done nothing to warrant a shot at a top fighter in Jones, in the end Jones faced the best version of Tarver, none of those instances should be considered ducks and none of them would be good wins had Jones beat them anyway.

At the end of the day Calzaghe isn't fit enough to wash the balls of Jones and Hopkins.

Toney616
04-30-2011, 09:49 AM
Calzaghe is a fraud, i Cringe every time they say The Great Joe Calzaghe!

Dawson is a whatever fighter but he would have had a great shot at beating Joe....
It would of been a entertaining fight, its a shame it never happened

I cant get that GIF of him windmilling slaps that all Miss against Hopkins outta my head he's terrible!
Yeah that gif is kind of shocking
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c217/natas206/hopcalz-1.gif

The Surgeon
04-30-2011, 09:53 AM
It would of been a entertaining fight, its a shame it never happened

Yeah that gif is kind of shocking
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c217/natas206/hopcalz-1.gif

Lol yup thats the one dude, Yikes thats bad!

Toney616
04-30-2011, 10:02 AM
Taylor fight was big at the time and most people were glad to see it get made, it clearly wasn't a duck, but it would of been a far better match-up then, than the fight that was made with Winky.
Taylor at that point was a green contender whose best win was over a washed up Joppy. That fight was only big news because of the whole Hopkins-Dibella feud

Nunn wasn't worthy of Jones at that point and did nothing to warrant a shot at him (the wbc rankings are absolute ****). .
After his debatable loss to Liles, Nunn and Arum would try to make a Jones-Nunn fight happen. Failing that, Nunn worked his way up to become his mandatory to force a fight and Jones vacated his wbc lhw belt instead. After Nunn had lost to Graciano Jones decided he wanted his belt back again. Nunn was past his best at lhw no doubt about that, but he was miles better than most of the guys Jones would fight at lhw

Again, Tarver was inexperienced at that point and had done nothing to warrant a shot at a top fighter in Jones,
HBO begged Jones not to fight guys like Frazier and Woods but Jones said he had to fight them because they were his mandos. Even a green Tarver was much better than Frazier, Woods and Glen Kelly

in the end Jones faced the best version of Tarver, none of those instances should be considered ducks and none of them would be good wins had Jones beat them anyway.
If you refuse to fight your mandos then it is a duck

At the end of the day Calzaghe isn't fit enough to wash the balls of Jones and Hopkins.
lol

Toney616
04-30-2011, 10:04 AM
Lol yup thats the one dude, Yikes thats bad!
The problem I had with Calzaghe was the slapping. I wish that dude would have learned to "turn over" his punches.

The Surgeon
04-30-2011, 10:12 AM
The problem I had with Calzaghe was the slapping. I wish that dude would have learned to "turn over" his punches.

Its the slapping that turned me off initially too, now its like his very exsistance offends me! I hate him more than anyone the sport has ever known, other than mabey Margarito for the loaded gloves scandal.

Shame as even i can see Joe had some great attributes, im not listing them tho - **** em! lol


Im a Hater and i hate the guy so much i dont even care.

Toney616
04-30-2011, 10:19 AM
Its the slapping that turned me off initially too, now its like his very existence offends me! I hate him more than anyone the sport has ever known, other than maybe Margarito for the loaded gloves scandal.

Shame as even i can see Joe had some great attributes, im not listing them tho - **** em! lol

Im a Hater and i hate the guy so much i dont even care.
lol:rofl::rofl:
I liked his ability to adapt and the fact that he never disgraced the sport by fouling or using drugs

The Surgeon
04-30-2011, 10:23 AM
lol:rofl::rofl:
I liked his ability to adapt and the fact that he never disgraced the sport by fouling or using drugs

Ok i'll agree with that but there will be No more Pro Calzaghe chat from me today!

Toney616
04-30-2011, 10:32 AM
Ok i'll agree with that but there will be No more Pro Calzaghe chat from me today!
lol
off topic:
Is the Berto-Ortiz fight worth checking out?

The Surgeon
04-30-2011, 10:49 AM
lol
off topic:
Is the Berto-Ortiz fight worth checking out?

Oh defo man, its an absaloute cracker! Get on it man :boxing:

Toney616
04-30-2011, 11:07 AM
Oh defo man, its an absaloute cracker! Get on it man :boxing:
Thanks for the heads up. off to upload it now:dance:

Scott9945
04-30-2011, 11:15 AM
Its the slapping that turned me off initially too, now its like his very exsistance offends me! I hate him more than anyone the sport has ever known, other than mabey Margarito for the loaded gloves scandal.

Shame as even i can see Joe had some great attributes, im not listing them tho - **** em! lol


Im a Hater and i hate the guy so much i dont even care.

If only Sonnyboy had been that honest...:)

Toney616
04-30-2011, 11:50 AM
If only Sonnyboy had been that honest...:)
Has he been banned?

RubenSonny
04-30-2011, 12:27 PM
Winky had been trying to get a shot at Hopkins for a while but Hopkins wasn't interested, so Winky worked his way up become his wbc mandatory. Taylor at that point was a green contender whose best win was over a washed up Joppy. That fight was only big news because of the whole Hopkins Dibelle feud

After his debatable loss to Liles, Nunn would ask Jones for a fight and Jones would refuse. Nunn would start to bad mouth his opponents and nothing happened. So Nunn worked his way to become his mandatory to force a fight and Jones vacated his wbc lhw belt instead. After Nunn had lost to Graciano Jones decided he wanted his belt back again. Nunn was past his best at lhw no doubt about that, but he was miles better than most of the guys Jones would fight at lhw

HBO begged Jones not to fight guys like Frazier and Woods but Jones said he had to fight them because they were his mandos. Even a green Tarver was much better than Frazier, Woods and Glen Kelly

If you refuse to fight your mandos then it is a duck

lol

Thanks for the info, I don't go by mandatories (corrupt rankings), Lennox Lewis not fighting Ruiz is not a duck IMO. You are right though Winky deserved the shot over Taylor, I will concede that point but Hopkins wasn't planning on losing, had he won Winky probably would've got the shot, don't forget HBO are a BIG factor and Taylor had their muscle behind him.

Nunn wasn't a big player in the division in the time and I wouldn't call him better than someone like Virgil Hill, their wasn't particularly high demand for the fight and it wasn't like he was a big threat, I can't call it a duck.

The fact is Jones fought the best version of Tarver and thats all that counts in the end, Calzaghe fought far worse comp anyway.

Toney616
04-30-2011, 01:17 PM
Thanks for the info,
Your welcome

I don't go by mandatories (corrupt rankings)
True.

Lennox Lewis not fighting Ruiz is not a duck IMO.
Depends how you look at it. HBO were willing to air Lewis-Ruiz though. Either way I wouldn't of watched that fight, lol

You are right though Winky deserved the shot over Taylor, I will concede that point but Hopkins wasn't planning on losing, had he won Winky probably would've got the shot, don't forget HBO are a BIG factor and Taylor had their muscle behind him.
True, but that would of been because Hopkins had no choice

Nunn wasn't a big player in the division in the time and I wouldn't call him better than someone like Virgil Hill, their wasn't particularly high demand for the fight and it wasn't like he was a big threat, I can't call it a duck.
When Jones fought McCallum Hill would call him out and Jones would turn him down saying that Hill hadn't fought anyone except Hearns and he had lost that fight. He would then go on and face Griffin. Its the reason that Hill was in the crowd hoping to fight the winner of Jones-Griffin. Those guys decided to have a rematch, so Hill decided fight other opponents. By the time a Jones-Hill fight was made Hill hadn't fought in a year, could no longer make the lhw limit, and was coming off a loss to Darius.m. So a win over that version of Hill doesn't mean much.

HBO wanted Jones-Nunn because they were hoping to put together a lhw tournament to crown a fighter the undisputed champion:
Jones announced he couldn't care less about the
title or about a light heavyweight HBO tournament that would crown a
unified champion and pay him several million dollars per fight.

Instead, he fractured the title further by giving his up rather than
defending it against No. 1 contender Michael Nunn, and then announced he
would move up to the heavyweight division because he needed a
multimillion-dollar payday.
https://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.boxing/browse_thread/thread/f7b7f24f192a9bda/fdedef2ab2dfbfd9?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&q=jones+douglas+roy+borges#fdedef2ab2dfbfd9

The fact is Jones fought the best version of Tarver and thats all that counts in the end,
And at the end of the day he is 1*-2 against Tarver, with many observers (myself included) having him losing their first fight as well

Calzaghe fought far worse comp anyway.
Jones has a better resume than Calzaghe no doubt about that, but Hopkins resume is about equal to Calzaghe's:

Best wins:
Hopkins > Tarver
Hopkins proved he was a better fighter than Tarver by winning every single round and Calzaghe beat Hopkins
Kessler=Tito
Tito didn't really do much at mw except beat fringe contender Joppy, Kessler best win is Froch
Eubank=Oscar
Oscar lost the Sturm fight and got a gift and he basically quit against Hopkins
Lacy=Pavlik
Both 1 dimensional punchers and Pavlik was fighting 2 divisions above his prime weight class
Reid=Joppy
Neither were anything special
Jones=Winky
Pointless fights
Manfredo=Jones
Pointless fights
Sheika=Johnson
Sheika beat Johnson at smw
Brewer=Holmes

Missed competition:
Calzaghe:
Johnson: Calzaghe pulled out of their fight three times
Pavlik: He should of fought him instead of Jones

Hopkins:
Jones, Toney, Dawson, Ademek, Green, Calzaghe(2002)

Draws:
Hopkins drew with a journeyman called Segundo Mercado

Losses:
Hopkins:
Mitchell, Jones, Calzaghe, Taylor I, Taylor II
The best opponents Hopkins faced who were comparble to him in size were:
Taylor I, Taylor I, Calzaghe, Tarver and Jones and he is 1-4 against them

No Contests:
Hopkins dived through the hopes because he was having a hard time with a green contender called Robert Allen

Intangibles:
Calzaghe always fought within the rules to win, while Hopkins cheats to win

TheHolyCross
04-30-2011, 01:32 PM
Taylor at that point was a green contender whose best win was over a washed up Joppy. That fight was only big news because of the whole Hopkins-Dibella feud

After his debatable loss to Liles, Nunn and Arum would try to make a Jones-Nunn fight happen. Failing that, Nunn worked his way up to become his mandatory to force a fight and Jones vacated his wbc lhw belt instead. After Nunn had lost to Graciano Jones decided he wanted his belt back again. Nunn was past his best at lhw no doubt about that, but he was miles better than most of the guys Jones would fight at lhw

HBO begged Jones not to fight guys like Frazier and Woods but Jones said he had to fight them because they were his mandos. Even a green Tarver was much better than Frazier, Woods and Glen Kelly

If you refuse to fight your mandos then it is a duck

lol

jones signed a fight with douglas, he vacated and was moving up, but his father urged him otherwise so he pulled out of the douglas fight and went back to LHW, the wbc gave jones his title back but graciano had paid the fees and so felt they should both meet, graciano was a no show at the conference, so the wbc said jones was the real wbc champ

anyway, hill and griffin were better wins than nunn at lhw

TheHolyCross
04-30-2011, 01:36 PM
Your welcome

True.

Depends how you look at it. HBO were willing to air Lewis-Ruiz though. Either way I wouldn't of watched that fight, lol

True, but that would of been because Hopkins had no choice

When Jones fought McCallum Hill would call him out and Jones would turn him down saying that Hill hadn't fought anyone except Hearns and he had lost that fight. He would then go on and face Griffin. Its the reason that Hill was in the crowd hoping to fight the winner of Jones-Griffin. Those guys decided to have a rematch, so Hill decided fight other opponents. By the time a Jones-Hill fight was made Hill hadn't fought in a year, could no longer make the lhw limit, and was coming off a loss to Darius.m. So a win over that version of Hill doesn't mean much.


and jones also hadn't fought a year before fighting hill
could'nt make the limit and jones gave him a catchweight, that was nice of him

$Natedatpkid$
04-30-2011, 02:59 PM
no point in explaining that to him. nate is a racist retard

Says the man who on the daily basis puts the N word in my karma and just yeserday wrote "black filth, die scum".

I don't have to defend ***** when all your arguments are on the Hopkins-Jones fights. Thats absolutely ridicuclous. 5 years earlier in their primes Hopkins & Jones would have raped Calzaghe.

Yeah Joe had a sore ass case of the vagina. Glenn Johnson would have murked him easily. Why the **** should Hopkins & Jones fight him back in their primes? He was a nobody hiding in europe with svette hahahahaha

awais
04-30-2011, 03:36 PM
lets be honest here, dawson was the reason calzaghe retired. other than dawsons own laziness and lack of focus, he outclasses calzaghe skillwise

RubenSonny
04-30-2011, 03:48 PM
Your welcome

True.

Depends how you look at it. HBO were willing to air Lewis-Ruiz though. Either way I wouldn't of watched that fight, lol

True, but that would of been because Hopkins had no choice

When Jones fought McCallum Hill would call him out and Jones would turn him down saying that Hill hadn't fought anyone except Hearns and he had lost that fight. He would then go on and face Griffin. Its the reason that Hill was in the crowd hoping to fight the winner of Jones-Griffin. Those guys decided to have a rematch, so Hill decided fight other opponents. By the time a Jones-Hill fight was made Hill hadn't fought in a year, could no longer make the lhw limit, and was coming off a loss to Darius.m. So a win over that version of Hill doesn't mean much.

HBO wanted Jones-Nunn because they were hoping to put together a lhw tournament to crown a fighter the undisputed champion:

https://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.boxing/browse_thread/thread/f7b7f24f192a9bda/fdedef2ab2dfbfd9?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&q=jones+douglas+roy+borges#fdedef2ab2dfbfd9

And at the end of the day he is 1*-2 against Tarver, with many observers (myself included) having him losing their first fight as well

It doesn't matter about him losing its about the fights he took and he took the best version of Tarver.

Jones has a better resume than Calzaghe no doubt about that, but Hopkins resume is about equal to Calzaghe's:

Best wins:
Hopkins > Tarver
Hopkins proved he was a better fighter than Tarver by winning every single round and Calzaghe beat Hopkins
Kessler=Tito
Tito didn't really do much at mw except beat fringe contender Joppy, Kessler best win is Froch
Eubank=Oscar
Oscar lost the Sturm fight and got a gift and he basically quit against Hopkins
Lacy=Pavlik
Both 1 dimensional punchers and Pavlik was fighting 2 divisions above his prime weight class
Reid=Joppy
Neither were anything special
Jones=Winky
Pointless fights
Manfredo=Jones
Pointless fights
Sheika=Johnson
Sheika beat Johnson at smw
Brewer=Holmes

Missed competition:
Calzaghe:
Johnson: Calzaghe pulled out of their fight three times
Pavlik: He should of fought him instead of Jones

Hopkins:
Jones, Toney, Dawson, Ademek, Green, Calzaghe(2002)

Draws:
Hopkins drew with a journeyman called Segundo Mercado

Losses:
Hopkins:
Mitchell, Jones, Calzaghe, Taylor I, Taylor II
The best opponents Hopkins faced who were comparble to him in size were:
Taylor I, Taylor I, Calzaghe, Tarver and Jones and he is 1-4 against them

No Contests:
Hopkins dived through the hopes because he was having a hard time with a green contender called Robert Allen

Intangibles:
Calzaghe always fought within the rules to win, while Hopkins cheats to win



I absolutely disagree, Calzaghe is NOT an ATG and Hopkins clearly is. Hopkins beat top 10 contenders Mercado, Lipsey, Vanderpool, Echols x2, Allen x2, Daniels and Eastman. Hes really in a different league to Calzaghe, I also thought Hopkins edged the Calzaghe and Taylor fights so I count that as a win for him, either way Calzaghes best win was controversial, and even if I took it as a Calzaghe win Hopkins is clearly greater. He certainly deserved the Pascal fight and I count that as a win. I don't see how you can have the Lacy and Pavlik fights even, Lacy hadn't beat anyone and didn't do anything after, there wasn't much in it between Hopkins and Pavlik in terms of size, its well known that Pavlik use to weigh a lot on fight night (around 180 pounds if I'm not mistaken). Pavlik was a top fighter and was expected to win or atleast be very tough but no Hopkins outclassed a much younger fighter, who had beaten a top fighter in Taylor twice. The fact that Hopkins has done what he has done at such an advanced age is truly amazing and should be an addition to his greatness, there is only one fighter who really competes with him in that aspect and thats Moore. Not to mention Hopkins snatched 2 legitimate championships in 2 legitimate weight-classes. By the way I don't count paper belts so I don't put any stock into 21 or 20 title defenses or whatever, I certainly don't regard Hopkins as the longest reigning MW, I don't really see how they are close at all, different classes of fighter.

SCtrojansbaby
04-30-2011, 04:42 PM
LMAO at Jones who was shot to pieces and been knocked out and beaten far more impressively then Calzaghe did it being equal with #2 pound for pound Winky Wright.

You just showed you have absolutely no knowledge of the sport of boxing

awais
04-30-2011, 04:51 PM
we all know deep down RJJ would have killed calzaghe in his prime

Pastrano
04-30-2011, 04:52 PM
It doesn't matter about him losing its about the fights he took and he took the best version of Tarver.



I absolutely disagree, Calzaghe is NOT an ATG and Hopkins clearly is. Hopkins beat top 10 contenders Mercado, Lipsey, Vanderpool, Echols x2, Allen x2, Daniels and Eastman. Hes really in a different league to Calzaghe, I also thought Hopkins edged the Calzaghe and Taylor fights so I count that as a win for him, either way Calzaghes best win was controversial, and even if I took it as a Calzaghe win Hopkins is clearly greater. He certainly deserved the Pascal fight and I count that as a win. I don't see how you can have the Lacy and Pavlik fights even, Lacy hadn't beat anyone and didn't do anything after, there wasn't much in it between Hopkins and Pavlik in terms of size, its well known that Pavlik use to weigh a lot on fight night (around 180 pounds if I'm not mistaken). Pavlik was a top fighter and was expected to win or atleast be very tough but no Hopkins outclassed a much younger fighter, who had beaten a top fighter in Taylor twice. The fact that Hopkins has done what he has done at such an advanced age is truly amazing and should be an addition to his greatness, there is only one fighter who really competes with him in that aspect and thats Moore. Not to mention Hopkins snatched 2 legitimate championships in 2 legitimate weight-classes. By the way I don't count paper belts so I don't put any stock into 21 or 20 title defenses or whatever, I certainly don't regard Hopkins as the longest reigning MW, I don't really see how they are close at all, different classes of fighter.
Oh come on!:rofl: Mercado was a BUM and the others were never that special. Daniels was good as a LMW, but he was crap as mw. He was just undersized in comparison to Hopkins too. Eastman? Lol! He's a joke and he even gave Borenard some tough rounds. Echols was just a hard hitter, nothing special. Allen...he was perhaps the best of the bunch but still nothing special. Lipsey I know very little about and Vanderpool was overated.

Vadrigar.
04-30-2011, 04:58 PM
It doesn't matter about him losing its about the fights he took and he took the best version of Tarver.



I absolutely disagree, Calzaghe is NOT an ATG and Hopkins clearly is. Hopkins beat top 10 contenders Mercado, Lipsey, Vanderpool, Echols x2, Allen x2, Daniels and Eastman. Hes really in a different league to Calzaghe, I also thought Hopkins edged the Calzaghe and Taylor fights so I count that as a win for him, either way Calzaghes best win was controversial, and even if I took it as a Calzaghe win Hopkins is clearly greater. He certainly deserved the Pascal fight and I count that as a win. I don't see how you can have the Lacy and Pavlik fights even, Lacy hadn't beat anyone and didn't do anything after, there wasn't much in it between Hopkins and Pavlik in terms of size, its well known that Pavlik use to weigh a lot on fight night (around 180 pounds if I'm not mistaken). Pavlik was a top fighter and was expected to win or atleast be very tough but no Hopkins outclassed a much younger fighter, who had beaten a top fighter in Taylor twice. The fact that Hopkins has done what he has done at such an advanced age is truly amazing and should be an addition to his greatness, there is only one fighter who really competes with him in that aspect and thats Moore. Not to mention Hopkins snatched 2 legitimate championships in 2 legitimate weight-classes. By the way I don't count paper belts so I don't put any stock into 21 or 20 title defenses or whatever, I certainly don't regard Hopkins as the longest reigning MW, I don't really see how they are close at all, different classes of fighter.

This is pretty good:

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6LbTrcGxsnc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jy3vJlFdj9A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Pastrano
04-30-2011, 05:03 PM
Come to think of it, did Hopkins ever fight and beat a good white fighter in his prime?? Or anybody not black? Trinidad doesn't count.:lol1: DLH must be the only really good non black fighter he beat and we all know it was a mismatch. All in all, he just beat 1 white fighter and that was a recently flu-recovered, non-technician Pavlik.

Im just saying because its ironic, he talked about how he would never let a white boy beat him, as if he had fought so many "whiteboys" in the past.:lol1:

RubenSonny
04-30-2011, 05:06 PM
Oh come on!:rofl: Mercado was a BUM and the others were never that special. Daniels was good as a LMW, but he was crap as mw. He was just undersized in comparison to Hopkins too. Eastman? Lol! He's a joke and he even gave Borenard some tough rounds. Echols was just a hard hitter, nothing special. Allen...he was perhaps the best of the bunch but still nothing special. Lipsey I know very little about and Vanderpool was overated.

They were in the top 10 when Hopkins beat them.

Come to think of it, did Hopkins ever fight and beat a good white fighter in his prime?? Or anybody not black? Trinidad doesn't count.:lol1: DLH must be the only really good non black fighter he beat and we all know it was a mismatch. All in all, he just beat 1 white fighter and that was a recently flu-recovered, non-technician Pavlik.

Why is skin colour relevant to anything?

RubenSonny
04-30-2011, 05:07 PM
This is pretty good:

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6LbTrcGxsnc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jy3vJlFdj9A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thanks man I'll listen when I've got the time.

Vadrigar.
04-30-2011, 05:10 PM
Come to think of it, did Hopkins ever fight and beat a good white fighter in his prime?? Or anybody not black? Trinidad doesn't count.:lol1: DLH must be the only really good non black fighter he beat and we all know it was a mismatch. All in all, he just beat 1 white fighter and that was a recently flu-recovered, non-technician Pavlik.

Im just saying because its ironic, he talked about how he would never let a white boy beat him, as if he had fought so many "whiteboys" in the past.:lol1:

race baiting now are we?

Pastrano
04-30-2011, 05:28 PM
They were in the top 10 when Hopkins beat them.



Why is skin colour relevant to anything?
Who said it is?

race baiting now are we?

Certainly not. Just pointing out an amusing fact. Hopkins went ballistic at Calz claiming he would never get beat by a white boy, while he didn't beat many white boxers, if any, at that point.

MRBOOMER
04-30-2011, 06:12 PM
If Floyd sr was training him then yes. Because Chad never looked better when he was with sr in my opionion that style fit him well.

slicksouthpaw16
04-30-2011, 10:39 PM
Love him or hate him but Calslappy would of out boxed Dawson pretty easily ....saying otherwise is obvious haterhate .

Highly doubt it. Dawson owns Calzaghe in the middle of the ring, but Calzaghe's stamina would cause Dawson problems late in the fight. I think Dawson wins the first 9 rounds and gets out worked in the last 3. He brings the kind of talent, youth, speed, angles, and offensive variety that Joe never seen, certainly from a large light heavyweight. Don't let the Pascal fight fool you, Dawson on his A game is one of the best talents I've ever seen.

And to the person who said Joe punched harder than Dawson, wow how ridiculous are you. Dawson staggered Adamek ( the worst Ive seen him hurt other than the Grant fight) with a counter right hook off of the ropes while leaning back in the 11th round. He can hit, and throws sharp counter punches, which i see being effective against Joe's sometimes looping swings and over aggression.

Ziggy Stardust
04-30-2011, 10:41 PM
**** man..

i find your trolling list so laughable. Considering you may be the biggest troll in this f``cking forum.

Pathetic loser....

Ooooooh! Prinzcessman has a new alt :loser9:

CiganoBoxer
05-01-2011, 02:43 AM
NYour ****in slow if you think Hopkins couldn't beat Calzaghe in his prime and how was it with ease? .
When was Hopkins prime tho ??
Good comments. Dawson has the talent to beat anyone, but you would never catch Joe losing to someone like Pascal.
True :boxing:

The_Demon
05-01-2011, 06:45 AM
I expected this too turn into a hate thread,sad times

New England
05-01-2011, 12:09 PM
i'll add to the pot that in my experiences watching fights live chad dawson is the most talented fighter i've ever seen. His size stands out, but he has no real flaws in terms of his physical talent. i'm hoping his next fight in CT has more action, but his last fight in hartford put him on the p4p list (when he beat glen johnson for the second time.)

CT/MA aint vegas, you take the big fights when you can get them :tragedy:

he doesnt have bone breaking power but he's a good puncher with both hands (he's a converted southpaw who can actually hit with his left hand,) and certainly hits harder than calzaghe.
he's huge
he's got at solid chin
he's very fast

he could finish his career as a HW
he is that big and tall and strong, and his team has had an ending to his career as a HW in mind from the beginning.

the only man i could compare him to in terms of athletic talents that've seen in person in boxing is sergio martinez

maravilla may be a bit lighter on his feet, but he's a smaller man
he looks like somebody is moving him around on puppetstrings

but he cant cover distance like dawson, who manages to be graceful while covering huge distances with big steps

dawson was a prospect for Uconn to play basketball
he has a boatload of talent, beginning and ending with size



intangibles would win this fight
joe figures out a way to fight that Dawson cant deal with
calzaghe decision.

Forza
05-01-2011, 02:20 PM
RJJ and bhop ducked a prime calzaghe. They would NEVER fight him at SMW and waited until he was 36-37 years old to agree to a fight, but on their home turf.

RJJ was a bum blaster, the guy fought nobodies and has beens his entire career besides james toney.

BHOP is a dirty fighter with like 10 loses, he always cries when he loses and has no power in his punches ( even compared to calzaghe ). His fights put me to sleep.

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2011, 02:26 PM
RJJ was a bum blaster, the guy fought nobodies

Are you saying Jones fought Euro-frauds exclusively? :thinking9:

Forza
05-01-2011, 02:33 PM
"euro frauds" like nigel benn, cris eubank? No, RJJ straight ducked them.

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2011, 02:42 PM
"euro frauds" like nigel benn, cris eubank? No, RJJ straight ducked them.

I mean Euro-frauds like all those jokes Calslappy was fighting.....funny how Zags waited until Eubank was washed up to fight him :geek9:

Obama
05-01-2011, 04:27 PM
I mean Euro-frauds like all those jokes Calslappy was fighting.....funny how Zags waited until Eubank was washed up to fight him :geek9:

He didn't really have a choice with Eubank...Calzaghe was nobody when Eubank was still considered a top fighter. But in general Calzaghe wasted a whole lot of his career. His resume isn't that bad for a guy with 30 fights, but for 46 when you're rated as high as p4p #3? It's pretty sad.

Mugwump
05-01-2011, 06:50 PM
After the Michael Watson tragedy Eubank clearly decided that he would no longer press for a KO victory (leading to a succession of mediocre points decisions).

However, Eubank was NOT "washed up" when he fought Calzaghe. Indeed, I don't think Eubank was ever washed up as his last two fights (immediately after the Calzaghe bout) were up at Cruiserweight where he came within an inch of claiming the WBO belt against the highly respected Carl Thompson (the only man to defeat David Haye).

In both fights Eubank showed tremendous aggression and heart and watching them again it's clear that he was close to the top of his game (the weight difference was just too much for him).

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2011, 07:05 PM
After the Michael Watson tragedy Eubank clearly decided that he would no longer press for a KO victory (leading to a succession of mediocre points decisions).

However, Eubank was NOT "washed up" when he fought Calzaghe. Indeed, I don't think Eubank was ever washed up as his last two fights (immediately after the Calzaghe bout) were up at Cruiserweight where he came within an inch of claiming the WBO belt against the highly respected Carl Thompson (the only man to defeat David Haye).

In both fights Eubank showed tremendous aggression and heart and watching them again it's clear that he was close to the top of his game (the weight difference was just too much for him).

Considering Eubank A) was Past 30, B) Hadn't beaten a name opponent in years, and C) Lost 5 of his last 9 fights (and the 4 he won were against nobodies), I think that qualifies as "washed up".

Poet

Pastrano
05-01-2011, 07:15 PM
After the Michael Watson tragedy Eubank clearly decided that he would no longer press for a KO victory (leading to a succession of mediocre points decisions).

However, Eubank was NOT "washed up" when he fought Calzaghe. Indeed, I don't think Eubank was ever washed up as his last two fights (immediately after the Calzaghe bout) were up at Cruiserweight where he came within an inch of claiming the WBO belt against the highly respected Carl Thompson (the only man to defeat David Haye).

In both fights Eubank showed tremendous aggression and heart and watching them again it's clear that he was close to the top of his game (the weight difference was just too much for him).

Thank you! For years I've been thinking I was alone in believing this, that Eubank was not washed up. After all, he gave Thompson two hard fights after this. He wasn't prime no, but he wasn't washed up either. He wasn't far past prime.

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2011, 07:22 PM
Thank you! For years I've been thinking I was alone in believing this, that Eubank was not washed up. After all, he gave Thompson two hard fights after this. He wasn't prime no, but he wasn't washed up either. He wasn't far past prime.

Other than the fact that Carl Thompson was another Euro-fraud with a resume loaded down with other Euro-frauds and a half-dead Eubank SHOULD have given him a hard fight.

Poet

Forza
05-01-2011, 07:27 PM
according to poet everyone past 30 is "washed up"

we need to get this troll banned from history section

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2011, 07:45 PM
according to poet everyone past 30 is "washed up"

we need to get this troll banned from history section

You forgot the "hadn't beaten a name fighter in years" and "lost 5 of his last 9 fights" part :bringit9:

It's nutghuggers like you that need to be banished to NSB with the other 'tards.

Poet

Scott9945
05-01-2011, 09:43 PM
RJJ and bhop ducked a prime calzaghe. They would NEVER fight him at SMW and waited until he was 36-37 years old to agree to a fight, but on their home turf.

RJJ was a bum blaster, the guy fought nobodies and has beens his entire career besides james toney.

BHOP is a dirty fighter with like 10 loses, he always cries when he loses and has no power in his punches ( even compared to calzaghe ). His fights put me to sleep.

I really hate to bother you with facts, but Hopkins has lost just 5 times in over 22 years. That is pretty damn impressive. One of them was his first fight in 1988, and three of the other losses were very close fights.

Pastrano
05-02-2011, 06:55 AM
according to poet everyone past 30 is "washed up"

we need to get this troll banned from history section

He's a troll indeed and a pus*y in addition, coz he put me on ignore right away instead of facing me like a man.:nonono:

RichCCFC
05-02-2011, 08:08 AM
Calzaghe would not get out boxed by Pascal and is the far more adaptable of the two.

He has much more stamina too which well help him implement whatever strategy he decided to go with.

Toney616
05-02-2011, 10:09 AM
jones signed a fight with douglas, he vacated and was moving up, but his father urged him otherwise so he pulled out of the douglas fight and went back to LHW,
The Douglas fight didn't come around until after the Nunn fight. Jones would claim that HBO were not paying him enough to fight Nunn

the wbc gave jones his title back but graciano had paid the fees and so felt they should both meet, graciano was a no show at the conference, so the wbc said jones was the real wbc champ
Graciano fought Nunn for the vacated belt, he won and became the Champion. The WBC basically tried to screw Graciano because they knew the sanctioing fees from Jones would be bigger
Federal Judge Strips Roy Jones, Jr. of World Boxing Council Title; Court Orders WBC to Pay $30M Damages and Declares Graziano Rocchigiani as Light Heavyweight Champion From 1998 - 2000.
Sports Editors/Business Editors/Legal Writers

NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 9, 2003
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Federal+Judge+Strips+Roy+Jones%2c+Jr.+of+World+Box ing+Council+Title%3b...-a099819501

anyway, hill and griffin were better wins than nunn at lhw
Technically the Hill fight was a cw fight. Jones best wins at lhw are:
Reggie Johnson
Montell Griffin
Antonio Tarver
Nunn would of been a better win than all of the other guys he fought at that weight.

Toney616
05-02-2011, 10:21 AM
LMAO at Jones who was shot to pieces and been knocked out and beaten far more impressively then Calzaghe did it being equal with #2 pound for pound Winky Wright.
The P4P ratings are an IMAGINARY rating system based on all fighters being the same size. In reality they are not all not the same size, so the ratings mean NOTHING.
Outside of jmw what has Winky done at mw, smw and lhw? The answer is nothing. Beating him at lhw a weight he has no business fighting at means nothing. Calzaghe beating that version of Jones means nothing. That is why those wins are equal

You just showed you have absolutely no knowledge of the sport of boxing
If Hopkins and Pacquaio were at no1 and no2 in the p4p rankings should they fight?

Toney616
05-02-2011, 10:51 AM
It doesn't matter about him losing its about the fights he took and he took the best version of Tarver.
And he is 1-2 against Tarver, which means at that stage of their careers Tarver is the better fighter.

I absolutely disagree, Calzaghe is NOT an ATG and Hopkins clearly is.

Calzaghe is NOT a ATG I completely agree with that, but neither is Hopkins

Hopkins beat top 10 contenders Mercado, Lipsey, Vanderpool, Echols x2, Allen x2, Daniels and Eastman. Hes really in a different league to Calzaghe,

Mercado, Vanderpool, Daniels and Eastman were all journeyman
Lipsey was a green contender with an asthma condition, he retired after the Hopkins loss
Echols and Allen were fringe contenders and never achieved anything at mw

I also thought Hopkins edged the Calzaghe and Taylor fights so I count that as a win for him,
You can't do that. You can only work with the official judging, other wise I can say well I like so and so, so all of his losses are really wins.

either way Calzaghes best win was controversial, and even if I took it as a Calzaghe win Hopkins is clearly greater. He certainly deserved the Pascal fight and I count that as a win.
During their 12 round fight Hopkins was holding 10+ times per round, consistently headbutting, hitting on the breaks and overacting and you think it was a controversial loss? Hopkins should of got Dqed. Goldenboy obviously pulled strings to get Jay Nady replaced with fair but biased Cortez

It was scored a draw and we can only use the official rulings.

I don't see how you can have the Lacy and Pavlik fights even, Lacy hadn't beat anyone and didn't do anything after, there wasn't much in it between Hopkins and Pavlik in terms of size, its well known that Pavlik use to weigh a lot on fight night (around 180 pounds if I'm not mistaken). Pavlik was a top fighter and was expected to win or atleast be very tough but no Hopkins outclassed a much younger fighter, who had beaten a top fighter in Taylor twice.
Pavik at fight night was around 171 lbs, according to the HBO weigh in Hopkins was 180 lbs. But according to Jack Leow Hopkins was really 187 lbs come fight night

Pavlik was never a top fighter, he is way too 1 dimensional to be classed as an elite fighter. He is a 1d come forward puncher, literally tailor made for a defensive minded counter-puncher, like Hopkins.

Taylor was never a top fighter, but he did have the potential to be one. Taylor's record before he retired:
Pavlik: ko loss
Pavilk: ud loss
Lacy: ud win
Froch: ko loss
Abraham: ko loss
Dude went 1-4 in his last 5 fights, including the Pavlik losses. He was clearly a fighter on the slide and Abraham is a club fighter

The fact that Hopkins has done what he has done at such an advanced age is truly amazing and should be an addition to his greatness,
He has been cherry picking his opponents since Howard Eastman.

there is only one fighter who really competes with him in that aspect and thats Moore.
Moore in his forties was fighting top contenders at hw, not calling out jmws and former wws

Not to mention Hopkins snatched 2 legitimate championships in 2 legitimate weight-classes. By the way I don't count paper belts so I don't put any stock into 21 or 20 title defenses or whatever, I certainly don't regard Hopkins as the longest reigning MW, I don't really see how they are close at all, different classes of fighter.
The Ring belt isn't really a belt, seeing as how you don't have to fight your no 2. Think Dawson who was ranked no 2 after Hopkins

jermainerambo
05-02-2011, 11:06 AM
Athletic Attributes:
Power: Dawson
Hand speed: Equal
Reach: Dawson

Technical Attributes:
Defense: Dawson
Offense: ?
Combination punching: Dawson
Jab: Dawson
Footwork: Dawson

Other:
Workrate: Calzaghe
Intangibles: Equal
Boxing IQ: Calzaghe

Weight:
175 lbs (fight takes place after Jones-Calzaghe)

Blueprint fight:
Dawson vs Johnson I
Dawson never thought anyone like Calzaghe, but Johnson was solid defensively and kept pressuring Dawson like Calzaghe would

Thoughts?






Athletic Attributes:
Power: calzaghe 32 ko
Hand speed: calzaghe
Reach: Dawson

Technical Attributes:
Defense: calzaghe 15 year in the game and not a mark on his face
Offense: calzaghe 1000 punches per fight
Combination punching: calzaghe
Jab: calzaghe
Footwork: calzaghe always on his toes bouncing around

Other:
Workrate: Calzaghe
Intangibles: calzaghe
Boxing IQ: Calzaghe

Toney616
05-02-2011, 11:07 AM
and jones also hadn't fought a year before fighting hill
could'nt make the limit and jones gave him a catchweight, that was nice of him
Yep, it was

Toney616
05-02-2011, 11:08 AM
Athletic Attributes:
Power: calzaghe 32 ko
Hand speed: calzaghe
Reach: Dawson

Technical Attributes:
Defense: calzaghe 15 year in the game and not a mark on his face
Offense: calzaghe 1000 punch per fight
Combination punching: calzaghe
Jab: calzaghe
Footwork: calzaghe always on his toes bouncing around

Other:
Workrate: Calzaghe
Intangibles: calzaghe
Boxing IQ: Calzaghe
lol:rofl::rofl:

Clyde Barrow
05-02-2011, 11:24 AM
Calzaghe takes risks and Dawson refuses to. He has the goods to beat Joe but it's not a fight he wins easily. Therefore, it's not a fight he wins. I think Joe would just pile up his punch count and frustrate Dawson to a wide points loss. Joe only had a close fight with Hopkins and an old Roy on his LHW resume, but assuming he's at his best, Dawson wouldn't do enough.

Alec900
05-02-2011, 11:31 AM
Eubank - Washed Up
Collins - Washed Up
Bika - A Nobody
Kessler - Eurofraud
BHOP - Washed Up
Jones - Completely Washed UP
Lacy - The only people calling him "the next Tyson" were morons.....kind of like you!

caghe never fought collins :lew:

Ziggy Stardust
05-02-2011, 12:09 PM
caghe never fought collins :lew:

Try reading the post I was responding to:
eubank collins bika kessler BHOP ( who is still fighting for belts 4 years later ), RJJ ( who is like a year older only ) jeff lacy ( undefeated, next "mike tyson" )

Yup, joe never fought anyone with a pulse.

Joe beats all your favorites, on any day, in the ring or on the street.

Ziggy Stardust
05-02-2011, 12:11 PM
He's a troll indeed and a pus*y in addition, coz he put me on ignore right away instead of facing me like a man.:nonono:

Sorry but you have to reach manhood first.

jermainerambo
05-02-2011, 12:12 PM
Then why did he Glenn duck 3x??????? 1 excuse is fine. Maybe you can live with a 2nd. But a 3rd time??? Now thats some straight pussay *****.

Have never seen Calzaghe adjust in any fight. He just swarms you with uncomfortable slaps to win decisions.



man who the fu*k is glen johnson 14 loses 2 draws won 2 championship fight 1 was against the *****ty roy jones


:unitedsta has no fighters just a bunch of country music loving Hillbillies
yeah you're a black Hillbilly

Alec900
05-02-2011, 03:24 PM
Try reading the post I was responding to:

I know.just pointed out.I should've replied the original post

RubenSonny
05-07-2011, 08:33 AM
And he is 1-2 against Tarver, which means at that stage of their careers Tarver is the better fighter.

Thats not relevant to what we have been discussing.

Calzaghe is NOT a ATG I completely agree with that, but neither is Hopkins

Mercado, Vanderpool, Daniels and Eastman were all journeyman
Lipsey was a green contender with an asthma condition, he retired after the Hopkins loss
Echols and Allen were fringe contenders and never achieved anything at mw

They were all top ten and theres nothing you can do about that, Joe didn't fight that many fighters on that kinda level, he was fighting fresh cans for the picking, either way it adds to Hopkins MW run.

You can't do that. You can only work with the official judging, other wise I can say well I like so and so, so all of his losses are really wins.

During their 12 round fight Hopkins was holding 10+ times per round, consistently headbutting, hitting on the breaks and overacting and you think it was a controversial loss? Hopkins should of got Dqed. Goldenboy obviously pulled strings to get Jay Nady replaced with fair but biased Cortez

Your contradicting yourself here....

It was scored a draw and we can only use the official rulings.

You said you thought Tarver deserved to win the 1st Jones fight IIRC, why mention that then?

Pavik at fight night was around 171 lbs, according to the HBO weigh in Hopkins was 180 lbs. But according to Jack Leow Hopkins was really 187 lbs come fight night

How would he know? He would have every reason to make that up, if Naz had said that Pavlik really weighed 190, it shouldn't be mentioned, thats weak conjecture.

Pavlik was never a top fighter, he is way too 1 dimensional to be classed as an elite fighter. He is a 1d come forward puncher, literally tailor made for a defensive minded counter-puncher, like Hopkins.

Still a good win especially when in relation to Calzaghes sham of a career.

Taylor was never a top fighter, but he did have the potential to be one. Taylor's record before he retired:
Pavlik: ko loss
Pavilk: ud loss
Lacy: ud win
Froch: ko loss
Abraham: ko loss
Dude went 1-4 in his last 5 fights, including the Pavlik losses. He was clearly a fighter on the slide and Abraham is a club fighter

He was better than anyone Calzaghe beat not named Hopkins....

He has been cherry picking his opponents since Howard Eastman.

Calzaghe has been cherrypicking opponents since Paul Hanlon

Moore in his forties was fighting top contenders at hw, not calling out jmws and former wws

Hopkins won the real LHW championship at age 41 or something and deserved to have it at age 45, thats a huge achievement whether you like it or not.

The Ring belt isn't really a belt, seeing as how you don't have to fight your no 2. Think Dawson who was ranked no 2 after Hopkins

You still have to be a top 2 contender and face the other to get it, its greater than the ****ty paper belts, how long did it take Calzaghe to become the ring champ again?

Toney616
05-07-2011, 08:43 AM
Thats not relevant to what we have been discussing.
I'll try again
In 2000 Tarver became his mandatory, so Jones wrote letters to the ibf questioning Tarver's attributes as a mandatory and demanding that Tarver take part in a elimination bout. The ibf relented and Tarver was forced to face Harding and lost.

In 2002 Tarver became his mandatory again, Jones could of fought him instead of Woods or Kelly. Instead he fights those guys then goes to hw.

In 2003 after beating Ruiz Jones would call Griffin and promise him a rematch if he beats Tarver. Griffin of course loses.

After beating Ruiz Jones's mandatory would be Vitali K. Don King speaking exclusively for the wba would tell Vitali that he isn't really Jones mandatory and that he has to take part in an eliminator bout. Vitali refuses vacates his spot and goes to fight Lewis instead. Tua is the wba no2 and starts to demand his shot, Jones has two choices stay at hw and face Tua or move down and face Tarver


ps: Im going to answer your post in parts

Toney616
05-07-2011, 08:53 AM
They were all top ten and theres nothing you can do about that, Joe didn't fight that many fighters on that kinda level, he was fighting fresh cans for the picking, either way it adds to Hopkins MW run.
You have said in previous post that you don't put much faith is rankings, but you are now doing it here?

Either way the mw division has been a barren wasteland since around 94, which explains why journeyman like Mercado became so highly ranked.
Ill give an example neither hbo or showtime wanted Hopkins-Hakkar because it was seen as a mismatch and it was. The fact that Hakkar was his no 1 mandatory doesnt change that fact.

In order to keep hold of a sanctioning body belt you have to face your no 1 mandatorys or get stripped. The fact that Calzaghe wasn't stripped means he was fighting his.

RubenSonny
05-07-2011, 09:04 AM
I'll try again
In 2000 Tarver became his mandatory, so Jones wrote letters to the ibf questioning Tarver's attributes as a mandatory and demanding that Tarver take part in a elimination bout. The ibf relented and Tarver was forced to face Harding and lost.

In 2002 Tarver became his mandatory again, Jones could of fought him instead of Woods or Kelly. Instead he fights those guys then goes to hw.

In 2003 after beating Ruiz Jones would call Griffin and promise him a rematch if he beats Tarver. Griffin of course loses.

After beating Ruiz Jones's mandatory would be Vitali K. Don King speaking exclusively for the wba would tell Vitali that he isn't really Jones mandatory and that he has to take part in an eliminator bout. Vitali refuses vacates his spot and goes to fight Lewis instead. Tua is the wba no2 and starts to demand his shot, Jones has two choices stay at hw and face Tua or move down and face Tarver


ps: Im going to answer your post in parts

Yes but him winning or losing against Tarver isn't relevant.

You have said in previous post that you don't put much faith is rankings, but you are now doing it here?

Either way the mw division has been a barren wasteland since around 94, which explains why journeyman like Mercado became so highly ranked.
Ill give an example neither hbo or showtime wanted Hopkins-Hakkar because it was seen as a mismatch and it was. The fact that Hakkar was his no 1 mandatory doesnt change that fact.

In order to keep hold of a sanctioning body belt you have to face your no 1 mandatorys or get stripped. The fact that Calzaghe wasn't stripped means he was fighting his.

I have some faith in ring rankings, not any of the sanctioning bodies,all were in the ring top 10, the fighters Calzaghe were fighting were absolute ****e, Hopkins run at middleweight is without a doubt greater than Calzaghe run at 168.

Toney616
05-07-2011, 09:09 AM
Your contradicting yourself here....
Not really. If I was to evaluate Tarver's resume I would only list his two wins over Jones. I would just state that the loss doesn't hurt him (for reasons stated), but it would still be classed as a loss

You said you thought Tarver deserved to win the 1st Jones fight IIRC, why mention that then?
True. But I still cant give it to him.

How would he know? He would have every reason to make that up, if Naz had said that Pavlik really weighed 190, it shouldn't be mentioned, thats weak conjecture.
Hopkins fight night weight against Tarver was listed as 182 lbs
He refused to take the unofficial weigh in against Calzaghe, and he was clearly bigger and stronger than Calzaghe (see round 4 Hopkins-Calzaghe)
Also
********boxing:
And I think the 170 pound weight limit may have helped Hopkins to be the stronger man as BHOP walks around at over 190 these days while Pavlik usually fights at 160 and doesn’t walk around much over 170.
http://www.ea$tsideboxing.com/boxing/Pavlik-Hopkins.php
Fight Hype:
The biggest edge for Hopkins was size. Pavlik's handlers maintain Hopkins was just too big. "First of all, we shouldn't be fighting at 180 pounds," Pavlik's trainer Jack Loew said. "Bernard was 187 pounds that night. Kelly is a legitimate middleweight. We weighed in on the scale at 169-169 1/2 and after 28 hours of rehydrating, we were 171 1/2 the night of the fight.
http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content4150.html
Thomas Hauser has also stated that HBO on occasion has deliberately understated fighters fight night weights. Tarver was heavier than stated against Jones for example

For Hopkins-Pavlik, Hopkins was reported to be 180 lbs come fight night and Pavlik at 171 lbs. Either way he was the bigger man

Toney616
05-07-2011, 09:20 AM
Still a good win especially when in relation to Calzaghes sham of a career.

Its a good win, but not the great legacy enhancing win that its made out to be. Is Calazaghe's resume a mess? Yes it is

He was better than anyone Calzaghe beat not named Hopkins....
I can't see Kessler getting koed by the like of Abraham or Froch. Even the over the hill Eubank he beat wouldnt get koed by any of those guys

Calzaghe has been cherrypicking opponents since Paul Hanlon
lol
He was facing his mandos like Hopkins, and like Hopkins his mandos weren't very good

Hopkins won the real LHW championship at age 41 or something and deserved to have it at age 45, thats a huge achievement whether you like it or not.
Hopkins original choice of opponent was over the hill Jones, that fell through so he decided to fight Tarver. Solid win? No doubt. Hopkins won every single round, proving he was the much better fighter. Calzaghe in turn beat him.
I had him losing Hopkins-Calzaghe, so we are going to have to disagree on him deserving to have it at 45

Toney616
05-07-2011, 09:27 AM
You still have to be a top 2 contender and face the other to get it, its greater than the ****ty paper belts
True. After Hopkins beat Tarver he was the nabf and IBO champion, he vacated those two belts (god forbid he had to face lhws), kept the Ring which has no mandatorys and then started playing move up with the little guys. Dude, wouldnt go any where near another live lhw until he faced Pascal. During that time he completely ignored Dawson.

how long did it take Calzaghe to become the ring champ again?
Not sure when it happened at smw, but he of course beat Hopkins to get the ring lhw strap

Toney616
05-07-2011, 09:39 AM
Yes but him winning or losing against Tarver isn't relevant.
He had two choices and he took the lower risk one, which was against a guy he didn't really want to face. So yes, he faced the best version of Tarver, but it was more a reluctant challenge than a challenge he actively pursued.
Either way it was still a duck to write those letters, something he shouldnt have done. Especially when he was facing guys like Kelly the sanitation worker or my boy,Frazier (HBO could of least let Frazier take his gun into the ring)

I have some faith in ring rankings, not any of the sanctioning bodies,all were in the ring top 10, the fighters Calzaghe were fighting were absolute ****e,

But its still relative, just because you are ranked by the ring, doesnt make you a top fighter. Frazier and Brannon were ranked within the ring top 10.

Nunn was also ranked within the ring top ten at smw and lhw

Hopkins run at middleweight is without a doubt greater than Calzaghe run at 168.
Your stated that like its some kind of fact. The truth is that the mw and smw divisions they both ruled were barren wastelands. Dude turned down Jones II, Calzaghe and Toney, while calling out Mosley and Mayorga:rofl:

RubenSonny
05-07-2011, 09:40 AM
Not really. If I was to evaluate Tarver's resume I would only list his two wins over Jones. I would just state that the loss doesn't hurt him (for reasons stated), but it would still be classed as a loss

True. But I still cant give it to him.

I said you were contradicting yourself by saying that Bhop should have been DQ'ed and was fouling since you earlier said we can only go with whats official. You also bring up that he would've been DQ'ed with another ref the same thing can be said about judging perhaps if there were different judges it could be done differently. The official outcome of the fight doesn't change what happened in the ring and thats why I always go with who I fought won.

Hopkins fight night weight against Tarver was listed as 182 lbs
He refused to take the unofficial weigh in against Calzaghe, and he was clearly bigger and stronger than Calzaghe (see round 4 Hopkins-Calzaghe)
Also
********boxing:

http://www.ea$tsideboxing.com/boxing/Pavlik-Hopkins.php
Fight Hype:

http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content4150.html
Thomas Hauser has also stated that HBO on occasion has deliberately understated fighters fight night weights. Tarver was heavier than stated against Jones for example

For Hopkins-Pavlik, Hopkins was reported to be 180 lbs come fight night and Pavlik at 171 lbs. Either way he was the bigger man

Hopkins wasn't prime for that fight and very old its common sense that you put on some weight when your older as this always happens in boxing it doesn't neccesarily make him the bigger man. JMM has said to weigh 145 lbs on fight night making the difference between him and Floyd not that much, but its not as simple as that since it was old man fat.

I can't see Kessler getting koed by the like of Abraham or Froch. Even the over the hill Eubank he beat wouldnt get koed by any of those guys

Juan Laporte didn't get stopped by Sanchez doesn't make him better than Gomez, thats all conjecture on your part anyway. Better chin does not always mean better fighter.

lol
He was facing his mandos like Hopkins, and like Hopkins his mandos weren't very good

And Hopkins resume at 160 is greater than Calzaghes at 168.

Hopkins original choice of opponent was over the hill Jones, that fell through so he decided to fight Tarver. Solid win? No doubt. Hopkins won every single round, proving he was the much better fighter. Calzaghe in turn beat him.
I had him losing Hopkins-Calzaghe, so we are going to have to disagree on him deserving to have it at 45

Hopkins original choice of opponent is irrelevant especially when Calzaghe fought Jones even futher along than that. Calzaghe was closer to his prime and it could've been scored either way.

RubenSonny
05-07-2011, 09:42 AM
I guarantee that if a poll were to be made on the subject in this section Hopkins would win by landslide.

Toney616
05-07-2011, 10:18 AM
I said you were contradicting yourself by saying that Bhop should have been DQ'ed and was fouling since you earlier said we can only go with whats official. You also bring up that he would've been DQ'ed with another ref the same thing can be said about judging perhaps if there were different judges it could be done differently. The official outcome of the fight doesn't change what happened in the ring and thats why I always go with who I fought won.
I think you are missing my point. There are a number of Hopkins wins, which I feel should be classed as dq losses. When I evaluate his resume will I class those wins as losses? The answer is no. Which brings us to Hopkins Calzaghe, how can a guy lose a fight controversially when he is using every foul in the book to win? He was throwing a right hand lead/counter, charging in with his head and holding. His fouls, clinching as a form of strategy, allowed him to stay in the fight, other wise he would of been flat out overwhelmed by Calzaghe's workrate.

Hopkins wasn't prime for that fight and very old its common sense that you put on some weight when your older as this always happens in boxing it doesn't neccesarily make him the bigger man.
He hooked up with Mackie Shilstone and put on 10 lbs of muscle. As a general rule when fighters refuse to take the unofficial weigh it its because they don't want people to realize how big a size advantage they are going to have come fight night. I reckon he was at least around 185 lbs against Calzaghe, so I have no problem believing Jack Leow. Either way he was at least 9lbs (2 divisions) heavier come fight night

JMM has said to weigh 145 lbs on fight night making the difference between him and Floyd not that much, but its not as simple as that since it was old man fat.
Floyd refused to weigh in come fight night against jmm, as a guess I reckon Floyd was around 160 lbs. So that's a big difference

Juan Laporte didn't get stopped by Sanchez doesn't make him better than Gomez, thats all conjecture on your part anyway. Better chin does not always mean better fighter.
True
But Kessler beat Froch and I think he could also beat Abraham and maybe even Pavlik. Same for Eubank

And Hopkins resume at 160 is greater than Calzaghes at 168.
Hopkins best wins at 160 are: Holmes, Echols I, Echols II and Tito
Calzaghes best wins at 168 are: Lacy, Kessler, Eubank
Neither of their wins were against elite opponents. Throw in the fact that Hopkins lost to the best mw's he faced:Taylor I, Taylor II and Jones and their resumes are about even

Hopkins original choice of opponent is irrelevant especially when Calzaghe fought Jones even further along than that.
It shows his a cherry-picker. And Hopkins turned down the legendary Danny Green to face a even more shot version of Jones.

Calzaghe was closer to his prime and it could've been scored either way.
I guess me, the hbo team, 2 of the 3 judges and the majority of the live crowd have to disagree with you on that one

2008-04-19 173 Bernard Hopkins 173 48-4-1

Thomas & Mack Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W SD 12 12

referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Ted Gimza 115-112 | judge: Adalaide Byrd 113-114 | judge: Chuck Giampa 116-111
Calzaghe down in the 1st.:sad6:

Toney616
05-07-2011, 10:21 AM
I guarantee that if a poll were to be made on the subject in this section Hopkins would win by landslide.
That could just mean there are more Hopkins fans here, than Calzaghe fans.
I bet you most of the people who post in that thread wouldn't even try to explain there choice either

IIIX JACK XIII
05-07-2011, 06:42 PM
As much as i dislike calzaghe, i gotta give him this one.

Ziggy Stardust
05-07-2011, 08:14 PM
That could just mean there are more Hopkins fans here, than Calzaghe fans.
I bet you most of the people who post in that thread wouldn't even try to explain there choice either

It just means the only peeps voting for Calslappy are nuthugging Brits.

Poet

Toney616
05-08-2011, 05:01 AM
It just means the only peeps voting for Calslappy are nuthugging Brits.

Poet
lmao:rofl::rofl:
Calzaghes resume=a bit of a mess
Hopkins resume=Overrated

SNAKE GRIFFIN
05-08-2011, 05:39 AM
I think Dawson is that talented if he had that killer instinct he would be the best.

Me too its very frustrating to see a guy with his talent just go through the motions, I think the Pascal fight woke a sleeping dragon though.

RubenSonny
05-09-2011, 05:44 AM
I think you are missing my point. There are a number of Hopkins wins, which I feel should be classed as dq losses. When I evaluate his resume will I class those wins as losses? The answer is no. Which brings us to Hopkins Calzaghe, how can a guy lose a fight controversially when he is using every foul in the book to win? He was throwing a right hand lead/counter, charging in with his head and holding. His fouls, clinching as a form of strategy, allowed him to stay in the fight, other wise he would of been flat out overwhelmed by Calzaghe's workrate.

Okay then, but I'm still gonna do it my way since it still wouldn't change what happened in the ring a fighter makes themselves great, not judges. I call it controversial because many people thought Hopkins deserved the nod, being that your best win is controversial doesn't say much for your resume, especially when it was against an old man. I couldn't give a **** about dirty fighting.

He hooked up with Mackie Shilstone and put on 10 lbs of muscle. As a general rule when fighters refuse to take the unofficial weigh it its because they don't want people to realize how big a size advantage they are going to have come fight night. I reckon he was at least around 185 lbs against Calzaghe, so I have no problem believing Jack Leow. Either way he was at least 9lbs (2 divisions) heavier come fight night

You have no problem believing Leow because you hate Hopkins, and my point about being old man weight still stands, but you will just ignore that.

Floyd refused to weigh in come fight night against jmm, as a guess I reckon Floyd was around 160 lbs. So that's a big difference

It doesn't matter if you think its a big difference or not, lets jsut say he was 160, those numbers wouldn't truly represent the size difference if you don't consider the age of Marquez.

True
But Kessler beat Froch and I think he could also beat Abraham and maybe even Pavlik. Same for Eubank

Conjecture.

Hopkins best wins at 160 are: Holmes, Echols I, Echols II and Tito
Calzaghes best wins at 168 are: Lacy, Kessler, Eubank
Neither of their wins were against elite opponents. Throw in the fact that Hopkins lost to the best mw's he faced:Taylor I, Taylor II and Jones and their resumes are about even

Tito can be considered elite, throw in the fact that Eubank wasn't ranked, Hopkins beat way more top 10 ranked competition and Hopkins age we have a landslide :)

It shows his a cherry-picker. And Hopkins turned down the legendary Danny Green to face a even more shot version of Jones.

Being a cherry picker doesn't have anything to do with anything, i go by who he beat. The rest is just reaching.

I guess me, the hbo team, 2 of the 3 judges and the majority of the live crowd have to disagree with you on that one

:sad6:

Playing dumb.....

That could just mean there are more Hopkins fans here, than Calzaghe fans.
I bet you most of the people who post in that thread wouldn't even try to explain there choice either

Then don't make it a poll and let people discuss it, I guarantee that every respectable poster will argue for Hopkins without a shadow of a doubt.

Pastrano
05-09-2011, 10:05 AM
Wats dis Hopkins-nuthuggery, its skullduggery!:D Just my little rap.:rofl:

RubenSonny
05-09-2011, 10:07 AM
Wats dis Hopkins-nuthuggery, its skullduggery!:D Just my little rap.:rofl:

Just waiting for the reset.........:D

Pastrano
05-09-2011, 10:17 AM
Just waiting for the reset.........:D

I'll take it as a compliment.:D You know, in my early adolescence, I was something of a poet.;)

Toney616
05-09-2011, 02:58 PM
Okay then, but I'm still gonna do it my way .
Whats the point of evaluating someones resume if you are going to use such a subjective criteria?

since it still wouldn't change what happened in the ring a fighter makes themselves great, not judges.
Have to disagree with you there. If the Judges aren't giving you the fights which would define your greatness, how do you become great? A fighter becomes great by beating great fighters. The only fighter on Hopkins resume who I would define as great is Jones and he lost that fight.

I call it controversial because many people thought Hopkins deserved the nod,
What about the people who disagree with you, dont they count?

being that your best win is controversial doesn't say much for your resume, especially when it was against an old man. I couldn't give a **** about dirty fighting..
You don't care about the fact that he used dirty fighting to stay in the fight? You don't care about the judges, the hbo commentators, or the fact that the crowd agreed with the decision?
Can't you see how biased you are being here?

You have no problem believing Leow because you hate Hopkins.
I said he was the heavier man come fight night and he was. I never said I believed 100% what Jack says, but I wouldnt rule it out.
According to the HBO scale he was 9 lbs heavier than Pavlik, so he was still the naturally bigger man

As for Hopkins, why should I like a fighter that is so dirty? Go and watch the Hopkins-Holmes fight. Disgusting. Holmes was fouled out of his belt

and my point about being old man weight still stands, but you will just ignore that
How does it?
He would hook up with Mackie Shilstone to put on 10 lbs off muscle and become a full blown lhw. What has age got to do with him him being the naturally heavier man? Dude made his pro debut at cw

It doesn't matter if you think its a big difference or not, lets just say he was 160, those numbers wouldn't truly represent the size difference if you don't consider the age of Marquez.
What has jmm age got to do with anything? Not all fighters can move up as succesfully as others. Jmm had no business fighting that high at any stage of his career.

Conjecture..
You said something like the guys that Taylor lost are better than any guy on Calzaghes resume, isnt that conjecture as well?
Kessler beat Froch which is a fact, not conjecture

Toney616
05-09-2011, 03:29 PM
Tito can be considered elite
Based on what criteria? He beat Joppy, who was nothing special, lost by shut out to Hopkins. Beat washed up Mayorga and lost by shut out to Winky wright.
Tito's resume at mw:
Best wins:
Joppy(b)
Cherifi(b-)
Mayorga(b-)
Losses:
Hopkins(a)
Winky(b+)
Dudes B+ at mw, world class but not elite

throw in the fact that Eubank wasn't ranked, Hopkins beat way more top 10 ranked competition and Hopkins age we have a landslide :)
What does it mean to beat top contenders in a barren wasteland? The fact that most of the guys Hopkins fought at mw were either fringe contenders or journeyman shoudl tell you a lot about the state of the mw division.

John David Jackson was koed by Castro and would go on to lose to a journeyman with a record of 9-6. After that he was made Hopkins top contender
Carl Daniels hadnt fought in a year and to the best of my knowledge wasnt a mandatory
Hakkar was terrible and non of the networks wanted to touch that crap
Mercado never beat a fighter above b- level and his claim to fame is that he got ktfo by Liles in four rounds
Gilbert Baptist the punching probation officer
Bo James the washed up fireman

Are these the top contenders you are talking about?

Being a cherry picker doesn't have anything to do with anything, i go by who he beat. The rest is just reaching..
It has everything to do with it. Look at his resume and you will notice that most of his BIG wins are over guys who are much smaller than him. Guys who dont really have the strength to hurt him and he can push them around

After beating Tito Hopkins would sign a contract with King which guarenteed him at least a million dollars no matter who he faced. It was the reason he stabbed Dibella in the back to make sure the deal went through.
Everytime a fight with a fighter Bigger than himself was offered to him he would moan about King and price himself out, while calling out the little guys. What kind of great fighter behaves like this?

Playing dumb......
I like James toney his my favourite fighter. As far as Im concerned he beat Jones. I dont care what the judges, the hbo team or any one else says about it.

Then don't make it a poll and let people discuss it, I guarantee that every respectable poster will argue for Hopkins without a shadow of a doubt.
Both of their resumes are overated. Calzaghes mostly beat unknown euros and Hopkins best wins are over the little guys

Ziggy Stardust
05-09-2011, 03:31 PM
A fighter becomes great by beating great fighters.

A fighter becomes great by beating good fighters. Most of the greats seldom had the opportunity to face another in-prime great. Beating a great who's past it is no more impressive than beating your typical fringe contender: It's just a name at that point.


As for Hopkins, why should I like a fighter that is so dirty? Go and watch the Hopkins-Holmes fight. Disgusting. Holmes was fouled out of his belt

Plenty of greats has used "questionable" tactics. Duran was dirty as fvck (watch footage of him lacing Davy Moore's eyes). Tyson was a filthy fighter and refs looked the other way because he was Don King's mealticket. Same thing with Chavez. Hell, watch footage of the Pep - Saddler fights: Those were foul-fests that I doubt will be equaled.

Poet

RubenSonny
05-10-2011, 09:41 AM
Whats the point of evaluating someones resume if you are going to use such a subjective criteria?

Already explained, I'm sure you think Chavez earned a draw with Whitaker...

Have to disagree with you there. If the Judges aren't giving you the fights which would define your greatness, how do you become great? A fighter becomes great by beating great fighters. The only fighter on Hopkins resume who I would define as great is Jones and he lost that fight.

Poet already answered that, your not new to boxing stop playing dumb.

What about the people who disagree with you, dont they count?

Then they can rate it as a win for Calzaghe thats fine by me.

You don't care about the fact that he used dirty fighting to stay in the fight?

Yes I don't care, my favourite fighter is pretty dirty anyway and poet already answered that well.

You don't care about the judges, the hbo commentators, or the fact that the crowd agreed with the decision?

If your being serious your clearly a noob.

Can't you see how biased you are being here?

Nope your a known Hopkins hater when comparing resumes with Pacquiao you claimed the Margarito win was great :rofl::rofl::rofl: shows how much you reach to discredit Hopkins.

I said he was the heavier man come fight night and he was. I never said I believed 100% what Jack says, but I wouldnt rule it out.

Because its Hopkins...

As for Hopkins, why should I like a fighter that is so dirty? Go and watch the Hopkins-Holmes fight. Disgusting. Holmes was fouled out of his belt

Your a known hater and will discredit him anytime you can.

How does it?
He would hook up with Mackie Shilstone to put on 10 lbs off muscle and become a full blown lhw. What has age got to do with him him being the naturally heavier man? Dude made his pro debut at cw


Already explained and if you knew anything about boxing you know that you start putting on useless weight when you get older, who you thinks bigger J Tapia or Brandon Rios.

What has jmm age got to do with anything? Not all fighters can move up as succesfully as others. Jmm had no business fighting that high at any stage of his career.

Because he has been known to weigh at about WW on fightnight since hes got old, its pretty simple.

You said something like the guys that Taylor lost are better than any guy on Calzaghes resume, isnt that conjecture as well?
Kessler beat Froch which is a fact, not conjecture

I said Taylor was better than anyone Calzaghe beat not named Hopkins, I'd say Kessler is arguable.

RubenSonny
05-10-2011, 09:49 AM
Based on what criteria? He beat Joppy, who was nothing special, lost by shut out to Hopkins. Beat washed up Mayorga and lost by shut out to Winky wright.
Tito's resume at mw:
Best wins:
Joppy(b)
Cherifi(b-)
Mayorga(b-)
Losses:
Hopkins(a)
Winky(b+)
Dudes B+ at mw, world class but not elite

Based on the fact that he was considered by most as oone of the elite fighters in the world, most experts thought he'd beat Hopkins, instead he got bsolutely dominated. Pryor beat an elite fighter in Arguello.

What does it mean to beat top contenders in a barren wasteland? The fact that most of the guys Hopkins fought at mw were either fringe contenders or journeyman shoudl tell you a lot about the state of the mw division.

What he did there was still better than Joes fraudulent run at 168, any objective fan can see that.

John David Jackson was koed by Castro and would go on to lose to a journeyman with a record of 9-6. After that he was made Hopkins top contender
Carl Daniels hadnt fought in a year and to the best of my knowledge wasnt a mandatory
Hakkar was terrible and non of the networks wanted to touch that crap
Mercado never beat a fighter above b- level and his claim to fame is that he got ktfo by Liles in four rounds
Gilbert Baptist the punching probation officer
Bo James the washed up fireman

Are these the top contenders you are talking about?

Nope are listed them earlier in the thread, have a look, its clear what a hater you are when it comes to Hopkins.

It has everything to do with it. Look at his resume and you will notice that most of his BIG wins are over guys who are much smaller than him. Guys who dont really have the strength to hurt him and he can push them around

His resume is greater than Calzaghes without a doubt.

After beating Tito Hopkins would sign a contract with King which guarenteed him at least a million dollars no matter who he faced. It was the reason he stabbed Dibella in the back to make sure the deal went through.
Everytime a fight with a fighter Bigger than himself was offered to him he would moan about King and price himself out, while calling out the little guys. What kind of great fighter behaves like this?

Exposing yourself further, you were never serious about making comparisons with Calzaghe just to **** on Hopkins.

I like James toney his my favourite fighter. As far as Im concerned he beat Jones. I dont care what the judges, the hbo team or any one else says about it.

You say Hopkins is a cheater loooooooooooool, that is just being silly since anyone with eyes can see that Jones dominated him.

Both of their resumes are overated. Calzaghes mostly beat unknown euros and Hopkins best wins are over the little guys

Yup this is your only mention of Calzaghes resume, anyone with decent reading comprehension can see your agenda, funny thing is I'm not eeven a huge fan of Hopkins.

RubenSonny
05-10-2011, 09:50 AM
A fighter becomes great by beating good fighters. Most of the greats seldom had the opportunity to face another in-prime great. Beating a great who's past it is no more impressive than beating your typical fringe contender: It's just a name at that point.




Plenty of greats has used "questionable" tactics. Duran was dirty as fvck (watch footage of him lacing Davy Moore's eyes). Tyson was a filthy fighter and refs looked the other way because he was Don King's mealticket. Same thing with Chavez. Hell, watch footage of the Pep - Saddler fights: Those were foul-fests that I doubt will be equaled.

Poet

Couldn't have said it better myself.

.G.
05-10-2011, 01:17 PM
It just means the only peeps voting for Calslappy are nuthugging Brits.

Poet

same with hopkins but with fat yanks

Toney616
05-10-2011, 02:05 PM
A fighter becomes great by beating good fighters.
I'm going to have to disgree with you there. He needs to have some wins over at least a couple of fighters who are either: atgs/hofers or at least classed as elite when he faced them. Or as a minimum a lot of guys who are at least grade b+ fighters. Out of interest what Hopkins wins do you highly rate?

Most of the greats seldom had the opportunity to face another in-prime great. Beating a great who's past it is no more impressive than beating your typical fringe contender: It's just a name at that point.
Hopkins had a chance to fight Jones when the fight meant something
Plenty of greats has used "questionable" tactics. Duran was dirty as fvck (watch footage of him lacing Davy Moore's eyes). Tyson was a filthy fighter and refs looked the other way because he was Don King's mealticket. Same thing with Chavez. Hell, watch footage of the Pep - Saddler fights: Those were foul-fests that I doubt will be equaled.
Poet
I turned off Tyson after the Ruddock fights. I thought the Moore fight was disgusting and should of got stopped, way before it did. The Pep fights make me laugh though, especially the judo throw that Pep did.

Pastrano
05-10-2011, 02:42 PM
Toney's right, both Jackson and Daniels were way past prime and Daniels was a natural jr. mw anyway. Much smaller man who wasn't even prime anymore. Jackson was more prime than Daniels, but still past prime. Echols and Allen were onedimensional punchers/brawlers and they still managed to give Hopkins a tough fight. Stop overhyping your man, just because you worship him it doesn't mean he really was a legend.:thumbsdow

He's simply a keen technical fighter who profitted from his experience, both in and outside the ring. He went on making millions by schooling non-technicians. And in the process got himself ranked alongside Monzon and Hagler somehow...idiotic American press.

Toney616
05-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Already explained, I'm sure you think Chavez earned a draw with Whitaker...
No. Theres a big difference between what happened with Hopkins-Calzaghe and Whitaker-Chavez. The only people that have a problem wth the scoring of Hopkins-Calzaghe are Hopkins fans. Most objective fans know that Whittaker was robbed. Big difference.

Poet already answered that, your not new to boxing stop playing dumb.
Unless you know what my definition of what makes a fighter great is, how can you say im playing dumb?

Yes I don't care, my favourite fighter is pretty dirty anyway and poet already answered that well.
Fair enough. I hope he gets robbed again on the scorecards against Pascal

Nope your a known Hopkins hater when comparing resumes with Pacquiao you claimed the Margarito win was great :rofl::rofl::rofl: shows how much you reach to discredit Hopkins.
Didn't say that. I said the Tito win is overrated and the Margarito was a solid win for Pacquaio. I also said that time will tell how best to evaluate the Margarito win. Time wasnt too kind to the Tito win, thats for sure.
Titos best win at mw:
Joppy
Best wins:
Shot Duran (c-)
Eastman(b-)
losses:
Hopkins(a)
Tito(b+)
Taylor(b+)
Bute(b+)
Joppy=B level fighter/fringe contender
Tito shut out loss to any fighter he fought above b level

If your being serious your clearly a noob.
The only people that have a problem with the Calzaghe-Hopkins decsision are Hopkins fans, who tend to be a little bit biased.

Because its Hopkins...
Im going to go over this once more than I give up. He hooked up with Mackie Shilstone so he could become a full blown lhw (for Tarver ) and walk into the ring come fight night at 180+ lbs. Could Hopkins now safely make the mw limit? Of course not. Hence Hopkins is the naturally bigger man when compared to Pavlik. You talking about growing old has nothing to do with anything here.
HBO unofficial scale
Pavlik: 171 lbs
Hopkins 180 lbs
Hopkins was the naturally bigger man and he was cut, not carrying old man fat, as you keep going on about.

Your a known hater and will discredit him anytime you can.
Hopkins had wanted to unify earlier with Holmes(wbc), but Holmes didnt want to fight him because of all of Hopkins dirty tactics. Unfortunately Hopkins would come into the Don King tournament and get put into a position to fight Holmes. Holmes's team leading up to the fight would talk to the hbo team (including the ref Smodger) about Hopkins tactics and plead with the ref to clamp down on them. And look what happened. Hopkins literaly low blowed him around 4-5 times per round. Smodger would take a point and later on threatend to dq Hopkins but he just turned a blind eye as Hopkins carried on doing what he was doing. And this is the guy you are surpised I hate?

Already explained and if you knew anything about boxing you know that you start putting on useless weight when you get older, who you thinks bigger J Tapia or Brandon Rios.
No, you havent. You have just resorted to misdirection. What part of training with Shilstone to become a lhw do you not understand?

Because he has been known to weigh at about WW on fightnight since hes got old, its pretty simple.
No
With the exception of a couple of fighters like Corley and Pacquaio, most fighters, fight about 10-12 lbs below thier fight night weight. As a sfw jmm would come into the ring around 144, now his bulked up to lw, I expect him to come in a bit heavier.
Mayweather couldnt make the 144 limit and could only get down to 146. Come fight night he looked like he was around 160 lbs. Thats a weight difference of more than 10 lbs.
Not all fighters outgrow their weight division either look at Hagler and Mickey Ward.

I said Taylor was better than anyone Calzaghe beat not named Hopkins, I'd say Kessler is arguable.
FIne.
Eubank>>>Taylor

Toney616
05-10-2011, 02:56 PM
Based on the fact that he was considered by most as one of the elite fighters in the world,.
He was outboxed by dlh and got a gift. Resorted to low blows when he got in trouble with Vargas and Reid. Beat up William nothing special Joppy. Would lose by shut out to Hopkins, Winky and shot Jones. His career was over when he was told to rewrap his hands

most experts thought he'd beat Hopkins, instead he got bsolutely dominated. Pryor beat an elite fighter in Arguello .
Like who?

What he did there was still better than Joes fraudulent run at 168, any objective fan can see that..
Hopkins journeyman>>>>>Calzaghes journeyman?

Nope are listed them earlier in the thread, have a look, its clear what a hater you are when it comes to Hopkins.
His resume is overrated.

His resume is greater than Calzaghes without a doubt.
Even if its better its only better by a little bit. Calzaghes resume is crap, so what does that say about Borenards resume.

You say Hopkins is a cheater loooooooooooool, that is just being silly since anyone with eyes can see that Jones dominated him.
Im being biased to the extreme to highlight my point

Yup this is your only mention of Calzaghes resume, anyone with decent reading comprehension can see your agenda, funny thing is I'm not eeven a huge fan of Hopkins.
I have never tried to hide my dislike for Hopkins. No one here should be surprised with what im saying

Pastrano
05-10-2011, 03:20 PM
Trinidad-Joppy fight was suspicious too, don't forget this whole issue over Trinidad's handwrappings. It did seem somewhat strange that a guy like Joppy, who has never been stopped by any other mw, including Bhop, should get totally destroyed in 5 rounds by a man who quite recently was fighting at 147. Who knows, who knows...

Ziggy Stardust
05-10-2011, 04:59 PM
same with hopkins but with fat yanks

As opposed to emaciated Brits that can't eat on account of their rotten teeth? :thinking9:

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
05-10-2011, 05:09 PM
I'm going to have to disgree with you there. He needs to have some wins over at least a couple of fighters who are either: atgs/hofers or at least classed as elite when he faced them. Or as a minimum a lot of guys who are at least grade b+ fighters.

HOF is pretty much meaningless as plenty of non-greats get in. Greats are a different bread altogether and, like I said, it's unusual to have two in-prime greats active in the same weight class at the same time. How many in-prime greats did Chavez beat? None. How many in-prime greats did Calzaghe beat? None. Hopkins beat one: Felix Trinidad.


Out of interest what Hopkins wins do you highly rate?

Felix Trinidad, Glen Johnson, Antwun Echols x2, Keith Holmes, Robert Allen.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
05-10-2011, 05:10 PM
idiotic American press.

Retarded Euro-peon fan bois :geek9:

RubenSonny
05-11-2011, 08:35 AM
No. Theres a big difference between what happened with Hopkins-Calzaghe and Whitaker-Chavez. The only people that have a problem wth the scoring of Hopkins-Calzaghe are Hopkins fans. Most objective fans know that Whittaker was robbed. Big difference.

I'm not a Hopkins fan and pretty much everyone counts it as a win for Whitaker which was not the official verdict.

Unless you know what my definition of what makes a fighter great is, how can you say im playing dumb?

..........Its obvious.

Fair enough. I hope he gets robbed again on the scorecards against Pascal

So you admit you think he got robbed, if he had earned the verdict it would have made no difference to what he did in the ring. Its clear you will reach as far as you can to discredit Hopkins.

Didn't say that. I said the Tito win is overrated and the Margarito was a solid win for Pacquaio. I also said that time will tell how best to evaluate the Margarito win. Time wasnt too kind to the Tito win, thats for sure.
Titos best win at mw:
Joppy
Best wins:
Shot Duran (c-)
Eastman(b-)
losses:
Hopkins(a)
Tito(b+)
Taylor(b+)
Bute(b+)
Joppy=B level fighter/fringe contender
Tito shut out loss to any fighter he fought above b level

So you've already ranked the win yet its value is dependent on what Margarito does, that makes no sense. A clear example of how you will reach to discredit Hopkins.

The only people that have a problem with the Calzaghe-Hopkins decsision are Hopkins fans, who tend to be a little bit biased.

Again, I'm not a Hopkins fan, I respect him and root for him most of the time.

Im going to go over this once more than I give up. He hooked up with Mackie Shilstone so he could become a full blown lhw (for Tarver ) and walk into the ring come fight night at 180+ lbs. Could Hopkins now safely make the mw limit? Of course not. Hence Hopkins is the naturally bigger man when compared to Pavlik. You talking about growing old has nothing to do with anything here.
HBO unofficial scale
Pavlik: 171 lbs
Hopkins 180 lbs
Hopkins was the naturally bigger man and he was cut, not carrying old man fat, as you keep going on about.

He was nowhere near as cut as he was at MW thats undeniable, you don't naturally grow at that age, your bodyweight stabilizes in terms of growth by around 30 (usually a little before).

Hopkins had wanted to unify earlier with Holmes(wbc), but Holmes didnt want to fight him because of all of Hopkins dirty tactics. Unfortunately Hopkins would come into the Don King tournament and get put into a position to fight Holmes. Holmes's team leading up to the fight would talk to the hbo team (including the ref Smodger) about Hopkins tactics and plead with the ref to clamp down on them. And look what happened. Hopkins literaly low blowed him around 4-5 times per round. Smodger would take a point and later on threatend to dq Hopkins but he just turned a blind eye as Hopkins carried on doing what he was doing. And this is the guy you are surpised I hate?

But its absolutely cool to like known steroid users, right.

No, you havent. You have just resorted to misdirection. What part of training with Shilstone to become a lhw do you not understand?

Its a given that he would hire someone to make the weight transition.

No
With the exception of a couple of fighters like Corley and Pacquaio, most fighters, fight about 10-12 lbs below thier fight night weight. As a sfw jmm would come into the ring around 144, now his bulked up to lw, I expect him to come in a bit heavier.
Mayweather couldnt make the 144 limit and could only get down to 146. Come fight night he looked like he was around 160 lbs. Thats a weight difference of more than 10 lbs.
Not all fighters outgrow their weight division either look at Hagler and Mickey Ward.

In his prime Marquez would come into the ring around 140 (a little under I think), its clear that the added pounds are due to age, and its clear since hes more fleshy than once was, as is the case with Hopkins.

FIne.
Eubank>>>Taylor

Its obvious that you'd pick a washed up fighter against a prime one if its in an effort to discredit hopkins.

RubenSonny
05-11-2011, 08:52 AM
He was outboxed by dlh and got a gift.

Funny how you flip flop with this whole official verdict thing.

Resorted to low blows when he got in trouble with Vargas and Reid. Beat up William nothing special Joppy.

He arguably had the best year of any active fighter that year.

Would lose by shut out to Hopkins

Displaying Hopkins greatness.

Winky and shot Jones. His career was over when he was told to rewrap his hands

Proof of you reaching as far as you can, he wasn't the same after the Hopkins fight and everyone knows that, he also retired between these fights, bringing up the Jones fight is completely pathetic and shows how much your willing to reach.

Like who?

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jd92601.htm

Hopkins journeyman>>>>>Calzaghes journeyman?

Exactly right...

His resume is overrated.

Yeah like most active fighters, thats a given.

Even if its better its only better by a little bit. Calzaghes resume is crap, so what does that say about Borenards resume.

Resorting to childish nicknames? Well you can have a look at my thread, look at all the great posters that didn't think it was clearly Hopkins, you've got Tunney, Zagz and Jermainerambo on your side :fing02:

Im being biased to the extreme to highlight my point

Yeah its cool man you hate dirty tactics but love steroid users.

I have never tried to hide my dislike for Hopkins. No one here should be surprised with what im saying

Okay well I will just leave it there nothing more to say, you hate him too much to have a decent debate about it, Calzaghe resume = Hopkins resumeis an insane statement.

bboy80
05-11-2011, 08:58 AM
Calzaghe wins all day long on points, but if it was Calzaghe in his twenties Dawson would get tko'd.

RubenSonny
05-11-2011, 09:02 AM
Calzaghe wins all day long on points, but if it was Calzaghe in his twenties Dawson would get tko'd.

Yeah I forgot Calzaghe stopped tonnes of world-class operators in his twenties.....:thinking:

IMDAZED
05-12-2011, 07:29 PM
Let's see how Dawson looks next week. I think his skills are as good as anyone in the sport but his chin appears weak. Could be his downfall again very soon, especially if Manny Steward wants to make him an aggressive fighter.

RubenSonny
05-12-2011, 07:44 PM
Toney's right, both Jackson and Daniels were way past prime and Daniels was a natural jr. mw anyway. Much smaller man who wasn't even prime anymore. Jackson was more prime than Daniels, but still past prime. Echols and Allen were onedimensional punchers/brawlers and they still managed to give Hopkins a tough fight. Stop overhyping your man, just because you worship him it doesn't mean he really was a legend.:thumbsdow

He's simply a keen technical fighter who profitted from his experience, both in and outside the ring. He went on making millions by schooling non-technicians. And in the process got himself ranked alongside Monzon and Hagler somehow...idiotic American press.

When did I make any mention of Jackson? Daniels was in the top 10 as I said, no nuthugging going on here, just your poor attempt at getting one over me.

I rank both Monzon and Hagler above Hopkins, funny that you mention Hagler when you called him "nothing special" or something of the sort.

DeepSleep
05-13-2011, 03:25 AM
I think Calzaghe is extremely overrated(Your best win is against 73 year old Hopkins???) but he is tailor made to give Dawson huge problems due to his punch output. Dawson seems too timid to handle a guy like Calzaghe who will flood him with punches.

Toney616
05-14-2011, 07:29 AM
I'm not a Hopkins fan and pretty much everyone counts it as a win for Whitaker which was not the official verdict.

I'm familiar with Toney's resume so I'm going to use it to highlight my point:
James Toney
Noticable Wins:
Nunn
McCallum
R.Johnson
Jirov

Questionable wins:
Tiberi*

Noticable Losses:
Jones
Griffin I
Griffin II
Sam Peter II

Questionable Losses:
Sam Peter I*

I'm still following the official rulings, but I have put certain fights in the questionable categories. When I evaluate Toney's resume I cant give him the Peter I win, even though I had him winning by at least 2 points. All I can do is place it in the questionable loss category and say that it doesn't hurt his resume. Likewise I had Tiberi winning every round against Toney, and thought he was blatantly robbed. So I put that "win" in the questionable win bracket and don't really value it as much. The point is I'm still working with the official scoring

..........Its obvious.
A great fighter(ATG) to me is a fighter who takes risks and tests himself against the best available competition out there. If he finds himself in a barren wasteland and has the frame to move up (think Hearns at ww), then he moves up to push his career to the next level. Staying in a barren wasteland and racking up title defenses against journeyman is not my definition of a ATG

So you admit you think he got robbed, if he had earned the verdict it would have made no difference to what he did in the ring. Its clear you will reach as far as you can to discredit Hopkins.
I never denied he got robbed. I'm sure if you look at some of the threads about the fight you will see my scorecard giving the fight to Hopkins. I would place the fight in the following category:
Questionable draws/decisions:
Pascal
Me bringing up the the Pascal fight was to highlight another point. If Hopkins has no problem with bending the rules to suit him, he should have no problem with biased refs bending the rules to suit them.

So you've already ranked the win yet its value is dependent on what Margarito does, that makes no sense. A clear example of how you will reach to discredit Hopkins.
Lets take a look at the Marg win:
Pacquaio made his pro debut at 106 lbs(flyweight) and would beat Margarito at jmw (catchweight 150) to earn his 8 division title. The dude won a belt at 40 lbs+ above his pro debut. How can that not be classed as a solid win? How many fighters have done something similar? Not many that for sure. The win is at least a B level win.

In order for Hopkins to have a equivalent win he would have to move up to cw and take on a fighter there. A naturally bigger opponent that has the power to hurt him, maybe even stop him if they connect enough. The sort of fight Hopkins always shys away from

Again, I'm not a Hopkins fan, I respect him and root for him most of the time.

Isn't that what a fan does?

He was nowhere near as cut as he was at MW thats undeniable
When you train to put on muscle you also put on fat. In order to negate muscle catabolism you will try to take in more calories then you will burn up.
Either way I don't see how this negates him training with Shilstone to put on 10lbs of muscle.

you don't naturally grow at that age, your bodyweight stabilizes in terms of growth by around 30 (usually a little before).
It sounds to me like you are confusing body-weight with height.
Your body-weight varies according to various factors: genetics/lifestyle etc it is hardly dependent on age. Hopkins at mw would train to get to 172 lbs and then he would drain himself to reach the 160 lb limit. What happened was that as time went on and his metabolism slowed down, he started to find it was getting harder to shred the last 1-2 lbs. So he decided to move up, which involved him doing weight training so he could compete with the naturally bigger guys at lhw.

On the flip side you have guys like Toney, who put on 20-30 lbs of fat in between fights so you notice he tended to quickly outgrow various divisions.

But its absolutely cool to like known steroid users, right.
Toney's my boy threw thick and thin. Was it stupid for him to take roids for the Ruiz fight? Of course it was. And did he deserve to get stripped and a banned? Of course. If he wants to keep disgracing himself at hw that his business, but his still my fav mw-smw fighter. Him using roids at hw in no why negates his body of work at the lower divisions.

On the flip side a number of fighters have been busted: Jones, Toney, Vargas and Mosley

Guys who are expected to have used at some point in their career: DLH, Holyfield, Hopkins, Lewis, McCline, Pacman

Hauser on Hopkins(2010):
And speaking of age; let***8217;s have a round of applause for another Golden Boy fighter; Bernard Hopkins. People talk a lot about what great shape Bernard is in and how remarkable it is that a fighter well into his forties can perform the way he does.

I consider Hopkins a great fighter. Other fighters have moved up in weight and excelled in the manner of Manny Pacquiao. But there is no precedent for a fighter performing as agelessly as Bernard has. I***8217;m aware of no proof whatsoever that Hopkins has used illegal performance enhancing drugs at any time in his career. Of course, to my knowledge, Bernard hasn***8217;t undergone USADA testing.
http://www.secondsout.com/columns/thomas-hauser/mayweather-pacquiao-peds-and-boxing
It is the reason why Pascal is asking him to submit to OST and Hopkins is refusing.

Its a given that he would hire someone to make the weight transition.
Then why have you been going on about old man weight?

In his prime Marquez would come into the ring around 140 (a little under I think), its clear that the added pounds are due to age, and its clear since hes more fleshy than once was, as is the case with Hopkins.
No its not. Jmm never outgrew the sfw division, he made the move voluntarily to chase Pacquaio and force a third fight. Just because a fighter puts on weight doesn't mean that age has anything to do with it.

Its obvious that you'd pick a washed up fighter against a prime one if its in an effort to discredit hopkins.
lol. For a NON Hopkins fan you are pretty protective of him, thats for sure.
Was Eubank past prime? Of course. Did he give Calzaghe his toughest fight? Of course, he did. Would that version of Eubank get ktfo by guys like Pavlik, Froch and Abraham? Of course not. If a past prime Eubank takes punches from Thompson at cw, the chances of him getting ktfo by German club fighters is highly unlikely.

For the record I agree that Taylor is better than most of the people on Calzaghes resume, including Hopkins, who he beat twice. Taylor is also better than everyone on Hopkins resume, except Pavlik(who he had no business losing to) and maybe a case could be made for Tarver.

SCtrojansbaby
05-14-2011, 08:04 AM
For the record I agree that Taylor is better than most of the people on Calzaghes resume, including Hopkins, who he beat twice. Taylor is also better than everyone on Hopkins resume, except Pavlik(who he had no business losing to) and maybe a case could be made for Tarver.


Are you stupid?

Toney616
05-14-2011, 08:15 AM
Funny how you flip flop with this whole official verdict thing.
See my above post
Also there's a big difference between out-boxing a guy and getting robbed on the cards and trying to steal a fight and coming up short on the cards

He arguably had the best year of any active fighter that year..
What has that got to do with anything? If you are forced to resort to low blows to cope with green jmws(Reid), then the chances of you being elite at mw is highly unlikely

Displaying Hopkins greatness
His great because he outboxed Tito? Hopkins is a defensive minded counter-puncher who style wise is a bad match up for 1d punchers like Echols, Pavlik and Johnson. You notice he tended to struggle against unorthodox fighters with fast hands like Calzaghe and Jones. It's the reason he would turn down Jones and Calzaghe 2002-2003.

Proof of you reaching as far as you can, he wasn't the same after the Hopkins fight and everyone knows that,
Bouie Fisher(Hopkins trainer)
I talked to William Joppy before his last fight and he brought up an issue that Trinidad's people wrapped Tito's hand illegally and that is why he lost. He said that your people caught Trinidad illegally wrapping his hands. Can you tell us what happened?

I tell you, Ike. They have been getting away with that for a long time. I sent my people to Trinidad's locker room to make sure everything was right. When they got there they came back to me and told me that Trinidad's left hand was wrapped before they got there. So, I had to go over to his dressing room myself, this is my business and I have been doing it for over 50 years. When I got there I told them to unwrap the hand and do it over because we need to see the hand being wrapped. They refused to unwrap the hands so I told them I guess the fight will not happen then, we can reschedule to another date. The officials came in and said we don't have time to do this over. I told them, well we must do this right or no fight. They know the rules, no tape on the skin or tape on the ankle. His left hand was heavy just like your camera. Guess what, the officials then said you can go and wrap Bernard hands anyway you want. Trinidad's father and his people didn't want to make the change because they knew they cheated and they tried to cover it up by asking me to wrap Bernard's hands anyway we wish. I wasn't going for that, we have to do this right, they raised hell like you couldn't believe. I said you can do it your way, but there will be no fight if you don't do it right. They said we are going to leave it as it is, so I told them we can reschedule the fight untill next week. They didn't want to do that. This is why we had a delay coming out. When they saw Bernard they tried to ask us to take off just a little tape, but they had a half roll of tape on Trinidad's left hand. This is why people say he has a good left hook. David Reid paid a big price, Trinidad took away the fighter in him. David Reids people were trying to schedule a fight with Bernard and it could have happened if Reid would have won his last fight. I'm glad it never happened.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:c7S0o5Qr7UUJ:www.********boxing.com/Interview-Fisher.html+bouie+fisher+camera&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.co.uk
Hopkins speaks on it here:
Go to 3:00
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VWu1BWIRkEs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
You should also check out the post fight interview with Hopkins, Tito and Merchant

he also retired between these fights, bringing up the Jones fight is completely pathetic and shows how much your willing to reach.
lol. I dont need to reach past the handwrap issue

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jd92601.htm
What makes those guys experts? The only names I recognize there are Steve Kim, Steve Farhood, George Kimball and Bert Sugars and I wouldn't class them as experts either. How about some predictions from top trainers instead, people whose job it is to know boxing inside and out?

Exactly right...
Wins over journeyman mean nothing and doesn't help to put Hopkins resume above Calzaghe's in any way

Yeah like most active fighters, thats a given.
When those guys are called living legends and their best wins are over the little guys, then would I call their resumes overrated.

Resorting to childish nicknames? Well you can have a look at my thread, look at all the great posters that didn't think it was clearly Hopkins, you've got Tunney, Zagz and Jermainerambo on your side :fing02:
I had a peek and it is basically the point I made before. Hopkins fans will say that Hopkins resume is miles better. Why? Because they say it is. How many of those guys will make a serious coherent argument to make their point?

Yeah its cool man you hate dirty tactics but love steroid users.
Says the Non-fan of a guy who is now refusing to be tested?

Either way, cheating is cheating. Am I going to start hating Toney's work in the lower divisions because he went up to hw to be a steroid taking fat bum? Of course not. I don't even follow his hw career and I wish he would retire already.

Toney616
05-14-2011, 08:19 AM
Okay well I will just leave it there nothing more to say, you hate him too much to have a decent debate about it, Calzaghe resume = Hopkins resume is an insane statement.
We never had a debate about it. All you said was that he beat top contenders like Mercado and Lipsey, a point which I easily dismissed. Outside of that we have been arguing about everything else, except making a solid comparison of their resumes.

Hopkins mw resume:
a level wins:0
b+ level wins:Felix Trinidad
b level wins:Robert Allen II, Robert Allen III, Antwun Echols I, Antwun Echols II, Keith Holmes, William Joppy
Draws: Mercado(b-)
NC: Allen I(b)
Losses:Jones(a), Taylor I(b+), Taylor II(b+)


Calzaghes smw resume
a level wins: 0
b+ level wins: Kessler
b level wins:Chris Eubank Robin Reid Charles Brewer Byron Mitchell Jeff Lacy
Draws: 0
Losses:0

A comparison:
Wins:
Kessler=< Tito
History has shown that Tito wasnt that good at mw, he lost to every mw he faces above b level. His best win is over Joppy(b). Kessler was a natural smw and his best win at smw is over Froch(b+)
Joppy=Reid
Neither of these guys beat anyone of note, Reid deserves to have a win over Ottke
Brewer=Keith Holmes:
Don't recognise anyone on Holmes resume, except Quincy Jackson(?) and Cherfifi(b-), Brewer has a win over a solid version of Herol Graham(b+)
Byron Mitchell=Robert Allen II:
Mitchells best win is a win over a past prime Liles(b+), Allen was still basically a green contender and never beat anyone worth mentioning
Jeff Lacy=Robert Allen III:
Beat similar level of competition
Eubank=< Echols:
Eubank was semi retired, so I can give this to Echols

Hopkins still has the Echols II win
NC:
Hopkins has a NC with Allen I, where he jumped threw the ropes because Allen was giving him a hard time
Draws:
Hopkins drew with Mercado(b-) who was a journeyman
Losses:
Jones, Taylor I, Taylor II


If Calzaghe's resume is crap, what does that say about Hopkins resume? The best mw's he fought were Jones, Taylor I and Taylor II and the last time I checked he lost all of those fights.

Toney616
05-14-2011, 08:50 AM
Are you stupid?
He beat Hopkins twice

Toney616
05-14-2011, 09:45 AM
Let's see how Dawson looks next week. I think his skills are as good as anyone in the sport but his chin appears weak. Could be his downfall again very soon, especially if Manny Steward wants to make him an aggressive fighter.
At times he seems to be just going through the motions rather than looking like his there because he wants to be there. He had no business losing to the likes of Pascal either. I dont think he has much choice but to be more aggressive though, seeing as how his past viewing figures/ratings havent been too good

Toney616
05-14-2011, 10:46 AM
Trinidad-Joppy fight was suspicious too, don't forget this whole issue over Trinidad's handwrappings. It did seem somewhat strange that a guy like Joppy, who has never been stopped by any other mw, including Bhop, should get totally destroyed in 5 rounds by a man who quite recently was fighting at 147. Who knows, who knows...
Joppy:
What should boxing fans expect on Nov.17?
I'll be back after my lost to Trinidad. My lost to Trinidad didn't do anything to me but make me a stronger man. Trinidad got caught rapping his hands illegally. He has been cheating the fans all this time. I have taken his lost as a man but know people can see that he's been cheating. I took it like a man, I'll be 150% this time. I just made mistakes. Trinidad don't have punching power he has been illegally rapping his hands. Bernard took away his power after he found him rapping his hands illegally. Trinidad
cheated against me and others he fought in the past.

http://www.ea$tsideboxing.com/William-Joppy-Interview.html
Bouie Fisher:
I talked to William Joppy before his last fight and he brought up an issue that Trinidad's people wrapped Tito's hand illegally and that is why he lost. He said that your people caught Trinidad illegally wrapping his hands. Can you tell us what happened?

I tell you, Ike. They have been getting away with that for a long time. I sent my people to Trinidad's locker room to make sure everything was right. When they got there they came back to me and told me that Trinidad's left hand was wrapped before they got there. So, I had to go over to his dressing room myself, this is my business and I have been doing it for over 50 years. When I got there I told them to unwrap the hand and do it over because we need to see the hand being wrapped. They refused to unwrap the hands so I told them I guess the fight will not happen then, we can reschedule to another date. The officials came in and said we don't have time to do this over. I told them, well we must do this right or no fight. They know the rules, no tape on the skin or tape on the ankle. His left hand was heavy just like your camera. Guess what, the officials then said you can go and wrap Bernard hands anyway you want. Trinidad's father and his people didn't want to make the change because they knew they cheated and they tried to cover it up by asking me to wrap Bernard's hands anyway we wish. I wasn't going for that, we have to do this right, they raised hell like you couldn't believe. I said you can do it your way, but there will be no fight if you don't do it right. They said we are going to leave it as it is, so I told them we can reschedule the fight untill next week. They didn't want to do that. This is why we had a delay coming out. When they saw Bernard they tried to ask us to take off just a little tape, but they had a half roll of tape on Trinidad's left hand. This is why people say he has a good left hook. David Reid paid a big price, Trinidad took away the fighter in him. David Reids people were trying to schedule a fight with Bernard and it could have happened if Reid would have won his last fight. I'm glad it never happened.
http://www.ea$tsideboxing.com/Interview-Fisher.html