View Full Version : Ike Ibeabuchi-what if?


Pastrano
04-28-2011, 08:01 AM
Where would he be if he didn't get crazy and locked up? I understand there were talks of a fight with Lewis just before he was arrested. What do you think, could he beat Lewis? He was incredibly strong physically and in addition he had boxing talent, which is very rare. He was too good to be true. So he had to go, naturally.

CarlosG815
04-28-2011, 10:50 AM
Where would he be if he didn't get crazy and locked up? I understand there were talks of a fight with Lewis just before he was arrested. What do you think, could he beat Lewis? He was incredibly strong physically and in addition he had boxing talent, which is very rare. He was too good to be true. So he had to go, naturally.

Ibeabuchi would have no problem knocking out Lewis, probably easier than guys like Rahman and McCall. He was something that Lewis was not used to fighting and made a habit of avoiding - a fighter who was in his prime. Regardless of whether or not he was crazy, I don't see Lewis taking that fight.

Ibeabuchi could have been a mega star, I agree with what you have said above.

Pastrano
04-28-2011, 11:25 AM
Ibeabuchi would have no problem knocking out Lewis, probably easier than guys like Rahman and McCall. He was something that Lewis was not used to fighting and made a habit of avoiding - a fighter who was in his prime. Regardless of whether or not he was crazy, I don't see Lewis taking that fight.

Ibeabuchi could have been a mega star, I agree with what you have said above.

Yes, if McCall and Rahman could do it, so could Ike. All it took to fell Lewis was one good punch and Ibeabuchi certainly had it. He could also box, so he wouldn't even need that one big punch to win. He could also outwork Lewis first and then ko him.

physiker
04-28-2011, 11:40 AM
He certainly could have done it.

Perhaps more importantly than whether he had the punch to do it (he did) is the issue of whether he had the chin to withstand Lewis' shots if they landed. And Ike's win over Tua shows he likely could have taken Lewis' best shots.

So yes Ike had a good chance of beating Lewis. And maybe even of being a "great."

Rip Chudd
04-28-2011, 11:45 AM
So sad that Ike isn't out there beating down dudes today. He definitely had the talent to go real far but unfortunately ended up going crazy. This is one of those instances I don't like to think about cause Ike had so much promise. Not saying he wouldn't have lost a few but I find it hard to see the likes of Lewis or even the Klits being able to withstand what Ike brought to the table. People talk about the lack of excitement in the heavyweight division, but this guy brought it every single time.

Holtol
04-28-2011, 12:17 PM
If he had of held it together a little longer he would have beat Lewis. I think maybe the punches caused his problems so he was maybe destined to have a short prime. A high percent of murders have brain damage, even though Ike could take a punch in some ways they may have been damaging him.

The Surgeon
04-28-2011, 12:53 PM
I feel like this guy should have been one of the greats, he seemed to have it all - Talent, Strength, Speed, Power, Workrate, Chin, the works! Id have favoured him over Lewis and he was only gonna get better

JAB5239
04-28-2011, 01:38 PM
Ibeabuchi is hugely over rated. His biggest wins were over a small Cris Byrd, and a short, 1 dimensional David Tua who he had to go life and death with and was never the same after. There is no proof he would have been able to compete with a tall, hard punching and talented fighter or that his work rate would be the same against such.

TOBYLEE1
04-28-2011, 02:20 PM
I feel like this guy should have been one of the greats, he seemed to have it all - Talent, Strength, Speed, Power, Workrate, Chin, the works! Id have favoured him over Lewis and he was only gonna get better

I agree, he was very patient with Byrd and got to him when nobody else could KO him.

Afterwards Byrd 15 more times without getting KOed and it included bouts with both K bros, Holyfield, Tua, McCline and a few others.

Tua is still around today and is still one of the heaviest punchers in the division.

Too bad that things ended up like they were cause Ike showed a lot of promise

Holtol
04-28-2011, 02:21 PM
Ibeabuchi is hugely over rated. His biggest wins were over a small Cris Byrd, and a short, 1 dimensional David Tua who he had to go life and death with and was never the same after. There is no proof he would have been able to compete with a tall, hard punching and talented fighter or that his work rate would be the same against such.

Like you, I used to think because he struggled with Tua that Lewis would beat him.

No offence Jab, you are entitled to your opinion but compared to most people you overrate Lewis. Most people don't have Lewis so high on their list heavyweights.

JAB5239
04-28-2011, 02:31 PM
Like you, I used to think because he struggled with Tua that Lewis would beat him.

No offence Jab, you are entitled to your opinion but compared to most people you overrate Lewis. Most people don't have Lewis so high on their list heavyweights.

That is fine, as it is only my opinion my friend. What I have stated about Ibeabuchi is a fact, is it not?

Ps-if you go through the entire heavyweight greats thread you will see the vast majority have Lewis in their top 10. Just saying..

Vadrigar.
04-28-2011, 02:50 PM
That is fine, as it is only my opinion my friend. What I have stated about Ibeabuchi is a fact, is it not?

Ps-if you go through the entire heavyweight greats thread you will see the vast majority have Lewis in their top 10. Just saying..

Jab, you are quite big on longevity aren't you?

JAB5239
04-28-2011, 02:51 PM
Jab, you are quite big on longevity aren't you?

When concerning all time greatness I think its a big factor, yes.

Holtol
04-28-2011, 02:54 PM
That is fine, as it is only my opinion my friend. What I have stated about Ibeabuchi is a fact, is it not?

Its true, but I could type some true things about Lewis resume that I think show that Ike would beat Lewis. But I am not going to becuase I don't care enough right now to put the energy into it. If you really want me to exsplain it I will.
Ps-if you go through the entire heavyweight greats thread you will see the vast majority have Lewis in their top 10. Just saying..

I have been looking at more lists lately and I think the average rating for Lewis might be somewhere around 8. If I remember correctly you have Lewis at number 4.

JAB5239
04-28-2011, 03:00 PM
I have been looking at more lists lately and I think the average rating for Lewis might be somewhere around 8. If I remember correctly you have Lewis at number 4.

I haven't checked in awhile. I thought I had him at 5, but 4 could be correct. Either way its an opinion that coincides with many others even if off by a few spots. And as I said, its just MY opinion and subject to change day to day.

JAB5239
04-28-2011, 03:05 PM
Its true, but I could type some true things about Lewis resume that I think show that Ike would beat Lewis. But I am not going to becuase I don't care enough right now to put the energy into it. If you really want me to exsplain it I will.

If you don't mind, I would like to hear your opinions.

Vadrigar.
04-28-2011, 03:05 PM
I haven't checked in awhile. I thought I had him at 5, but 4 could be correct. Either way its an opinion that coincides with many others even if off by a few spots. And as I said, its just MY opinion and subject to change day to day.

Referring to the quote in your signature, is the 15-20 position reasonable?

Pastrano
04-28-2011, 03:05 PM
Who did Lewis beat in his second title reign?? Lets see his list: first McCall-quit crying, emotional wreck from cocaine at the time. Then Akinwande and his hugging episode, Lewis got another free win by dq. Golota had suffered a panic attack right before their fight and was injected with LYDOCAINE, later he had to be revived on the way to hospital after the fight. Not from the ko, but the lydocaine. FAK, did this guy have luck or what??!! I mean Lewis. Then Briggs, who as we know got no skills, he's all power and he nearly stopped Lewis in the first round. Credit to Lewis for regaining his composure, but it was not that hard since Briggs has asthma and was done after the first 2 rounds. Then my man Zeljko Mavrovic, who accidentally weighed less for his fight with Lewis than ANY previous fight since he turned pro. Blame it on his silly macro diet. He gave Lewis some very rough time, but was ultimately too weakened to pull off an upset.

The Holyfield fights were his probably best outings, but mostly because Holyfield was already past it and had stamina problems. Then he beat a coupla bums in Grant and Botha and had no major problems against the 5'9 Tua. The Rahman fight 2 was a good performance, but he was hungry for revenge and Rahman was proven overated since. Then the Tyson farce came and then Vitali K beat him up but he got cut by either a punch or headbutt or likely both. Thats it. I don't hate Lewis but I find him grossly overated by many people, most of them British.

JAB5239
04-28-2011, 03:08 PM
Referring to the quote in your signature, is the 15-20 position reasonable?

In my opinion it is ridiculous. What do you think?

Holtol
04-28-2011, 03:10 PM
I haven't checked in awhile. I thought I had him at 5, but 4 could be correct. Either way its an opinion that coincides with many others even if off by a few spots. And as I said, its just MY opinion and subject to change day to day.

I just thought that maybe the difference in opinion of who would win Ike vs Lewis might be that you think Lewis is better then I do. You said I am overrating Ibeabuchi because I think he would beat Lewis. Are difference of opinion could be in how good we think Lewis is and not Ibeabuchi. I was just wondering if there was some confusion. I am not going to argue about Lewis resume though just because its been gone over so much.

JAB5239
04-28-2011, 03:16 PM
I just thought that maybe the difference in opinion of who would win Ike vs Lewis might be that you think Lewis is better then I do. You said I am overrating Ibeabuchi because I think he would beat Lewis. Are difference of opinion could be in how good we think Lewis is and not Ibeabuchi. I was just wondering if there was some confusion. I am not going to argue about Lewis resume though just because its been gone over so much.

I think Ibeabuchi is over rated my the masses, my friend. Its not just you. His career has been blown out of proportion based more on unreached potential than actual accomplishment.There is no denying he had talent. But there is also no guarantee he would have fulfilled it either.

Vadrigar.
04-28-2011, 03:31 PM
In my opinion it is ridiculous. What do you think?

It's getting into Floyd Patterson territory and I don't see how you can justify putting them that close together. You agree?

JAB5239
04-28-2011, 03:38 PM
It's getting into Floyd Patterson territory and I don't see how you can justify putting them that close together. You agree?

I do agree. I just can't see any way for him to be ranked outside the top 10. Just my opinion of course.

Holtol
04-28-2011, 04:43 PM
If you don't mind, I would like to hear your opinions.[/QUOTE]

There have been many Lewis threads where I have said my opinion of some of his wins and losses. I don't really feel like aggravating his fans and having to exsplain myself its a lot of work. It would require many pages for me to describe everything I am not up to it right now. Maybe I will a little later. I am just not feeling that inspired to argue his carreer right now for some reason.

Steak
04-28-2011, 04:55 PM
Its difficult to say. Ibeabuchi didnt accomplish much, hell he only fought two fighters of note his entire career...but his win over Chris Byrd was pretty damn impressive, and I still consider Byrd to be Wladimir's best win even after all this time. And outfighting Tua at his own game isnt exactly somethign to scoff at.

I think he had his limitations, but would have LOVED to see him fight Lewis or the Klitschkos.

Im not sure if he would have gotten better or not. He was always a mental case and was probably bound to crack at any time.

the main obsession with Ike is not that he was ATG material really...its just that people wish that a powerful, exciting HW like him was around in the 2000s, where the division started getting really terrible. he definitely could have made waves there.

Ziggy Stardust
04-28-2011, 06:16 PM
In my opinion it is ridiculous. What do you think?

The irony is that when pressed, the person in question would EASILY reel of the names of 50+ Heavyweights that he thinks would beat Lewis.....thereby making his 15-20 ranking disingenuous to say the least.

PS. I personally rank Lewis at 13th just ahead of Joe Walcott: Not quite an ATG but not far off either.

Poet

IronDanHamza
04-28-2011, 06:19 PM
The irony is that when pressed, the person in question would EASILY reel of the names of 50+ Heavyweights that he thinks would beat Lewis.....thereby making his 15-20 ranking disingenuous to say the least.

PS. I personally rank Lewis at 13th just ahead of Joe Walcott: Not quite an ATG but not far off either.

Poet

I also rank Lennox Lewis around the #13 mark.

bojangles1987
04-28-2011, 06:27 PM
Ibeabuchi is hugely over rated. His biggest wins were over a small Cris Byrd, and a short, 1 dimensional David Tua who he had to go life and death with and was never the same after. There is no proof he would have been able to compete with a tall, hard punching and talented fighter or that his work rate would be the same against such.

Everyone who has potential but is never around long enough to live up to it gets massively overrated. Just look at Valero now, people say he would knock out everyone at 140 and maybe beat Pacquiao.

JAB5239
04-28-2011, 07:58 PM
If you don't mind, I would like to hear your opinions.

There have been many Lewis threads where I have said my opinion of some of his wins and losses. I don't really feel like aggravating his fans and having to exsplain myself its a lot of work. It would require many pages for me to describe everything I am not up to it right now. Maybe I will a little later. I am just not feeling that inspired to argue his carreer right now for some reason.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough H, its cool.

JAB5239
04-28-2011, 08:03 PM
Everyone who has potential but is never around long enough to live up to it gets massively overrated. Just look at Valero now, people say he would knock out everyone at 140 and maybe beat Pacquiao.

Valero, another fighter hugely over rated. Good call.

winky's right
04-28-2011, 08:55 PM
As argued by a couple already, people tend to get seduced with undefeated prospects who have yet to face A-calibre fighters. I just think Lewis was too skilled and experienced for Ibeabuchi. As Jabs said, Ike was already damaged goods after that brutal war with Tua. With such an agressive style and lacking defense, one can only assume that his demise was immenent. Lewis would've got the job done.

Scott9945
04-28-2011, 11:03 PM
Everyone who has potential but is never around long enough to live up to it gets massively overrated. Just look at Valero now, people say he would knock out everyone at 140 and maybe beat Pacquiao.

Absolutely true. All these claims of Ike's greatness is based almost entirely on speculation.

Scott9945
04-28-2011, 11:10 PM
Who did Lewis beat in his second title reign?? Lets see his list: first McCall-quit crying, emotional wreck from cocaine at the time. Then Akinwande and his hugging episode, Lewis got another free win by dq. Golota had suffered a panic attack right before their fight and was injected with LYDOCAINE, later he had to be revived on the way to hospital after the fight. Not from the ko, but the lydocaine. FAK, did this guy have luck or what??!! I mean Lewis. Then Briggs, who as we know got no skills, he's all power and he nearly stopped Lewis in the first round. Credit to Lewis for regaining his composure, but it was not that hard since Briggs has asthma and was done after the first 2 rounds. Then my man Zeljko Mavrovic, who accidentally weighed less for his fight with Lewis than ANY previous fight since he turned pro. Blame it on his silly macro diet. He gave Lewis some very rough time, but was ultimately too weakened to pull off an upset.

The Holyfield fights were his probably best outings, but mostly because Holyfield was already past it and had stamina problems. Then he beat a coupla bums in Grant and Botha and had no major problems against the 5'9 Tua. The Rahman fight 2 was a good performance, but he was hungry for revenge and Rahman was proven overated since. Then the Tyson farce came and then Vitali K beat him up but he got cut by either a punch or headbutt or likely both. Thats it. I don't hate Lewis but I find him grossly overated by many people, most of them British.

Nice job using convenient rationalization to minimize someones career. Why do you think that McCall cried, Akinwande held, or Golota panicked? It's because they realized they were in the ring with a superior talent and became mentally undone. But I guess it works better for you to just assume that Lennox was simply lucky. Of course nobody says the same thing when all those opponents froze in the ring against Tyson.

DeepSleep
04-29-2011, 04:57 AM
This board would be a better place if we could somehow prevent Lennox Lewis's name from ever being mentioned... I think we should sticky a Lennox Lewis thread we can all write our spiel and be done with the subject.

Given how few legit matches we have to go on with Ike it's hard to say how he would end up. I will say he clearly had some offensive skill to go with the talent as he had no problem feeding Byrd who is tough to hit. His fight with Tua showed he had a solid chin but I displayed his flaws. Tua could take a punch and give a punch as good as just about anyone but he wasn't a very good boxer.

Pastrano
04-29-2011, 09:09 AM
McCall was only days out of a drug-rehab which is why Lewis agreed to fight him.
Akinwande floored Lewis with Lewis just as guilty of holding as Hank was.
Golota was a bum who was renowned for panic-attacks, low-blows, headbutts etc

At least those fighters who froze against Mike Tyson was legitimate world-class contenders who was at the "Top of their game" unlike Lewis who avoided every top contender who was at the top of their game his whole career so was stripped of every championship belt..

Ibeabuchi would have knocked Lewis into the ground like a tent-peg.. his victories over David Tua who was at his peak weighing 226lbs compared to the night he was "The fattest man to ever fight for the title when he fought Lewis weighing 250lbs.. Chris Byrd was hammered by Ibeabuchi yet Lewis was stripped of the IBF belt for refusing to fight Chris Byrd which says it all about the career of Lennox Lewis... Lewis turned down a career highest payday of 13 million to fight Mike Tyson in 1996 yet Frank Bruno defended his title as champion against Tyson for 3 million yet Lewis struggled and was fortunate to beat Bruno so Ike Ibeabuchi would have no problems taking care of Lewis.

Scott either didnt see the McCall fight or he just is a major Lewis nuthugger. McCall was actually beating Lewis in the first 2 rounds before the trauma set in. McCall was naturally more talented than Lewis-yes, I say that! Its his coke addiction that didn't let him build a legacy and a solid career once he won the belt. But he has proved himself after that with a few impressive performances, such as koing Akinwande himself with one punch, koing Maskaev in one round and beating Oquendo at 45.

And about Golota, he was far from a bum but he just couldnt keep it together. Dunno what his problem was, but he was seriously faked up in the head. Lewis was/is a lumbering bear who thanks to his big reach was able to land punches he otherwise never could. His balance, speed and footwork were all bad. He was so incomplete, McCall was ten times more complete. And above all-Lewis fought dirty. He was famous for holding and hitting and he obviously headbutted Vitali coz he was behind in the fight. He just wanted to stop him, at any cost.

CarlosG815
04-29-2011, 11:29 AM
People keep talking about the mysticism of Ike and the reason he is overrated is because he was undefeated and a lot of his win's were journeyman, yet Lennox Lewis had the same opportunity early in his career yet he was not as dominant and his skills weren't as clearly visible as Ike and he was poleaxed in just a few short rounds by Oliver McCall, something that never came close to happening to Ike.

For the number of fights Ike fought, he had some good heavyweights in Byrd and Tua. Tua might be one dimensional but he was still a top contender at the time he fought Ike and in prime condition.

The Valero comparison would make more sense if Valero fought just ONE guy that was decent. Antonio DeMarco is the only guy on his resume that is halfway decent and he's a C fighter, whereas Tua and Byrd were very good fighters.

I highly doubt that Lennox would fight a guy like Ike unless Ike had some sort of major life changing travesty, and was arrested and came out of jail 40 pounds overweight. Maybe then and even then he has a punchers chance to give him glazy eyes.

The_Demon
04-29-2011, 11:38 AM
funny how this turned into a thread for all the deluded Lewis haters,make it a sticky so they can all come in here and spread their obsessive hatred with one another,that will keep the trolls out of the thread where good posters actually want a real debate

CarlosG815
04-29-2011, 01:43 PM
funny how this turned into a thread for all the deluded Lewis haters,make it a sticky so they can all come in here and spread their obsessive hatred with one another,that will keep the trolls out of the thread where good posters actually want a real debate

What reason does anybody have to hate and troll on Lennox Lewis? I am just saying what I believe is the truth. The OP asked how Ike would fare against Lewis and I believe that Ike would have knocked him out, but at the same time I do not believe Lewis would even step into the ring with him to begin with.

Pastrano
04-29-2011, 01:52 PM
Tua wasn't as onedimensional as everyone thinks. In fact, in that fight with Ike he showed he had some boxing skills and beautifully utilized his short right. I scored that fight a draw really, but I can see Ike winning it as well since many rounds were very close. Tua came on too late, but he did win many rounds still. Beautiful fight, a classic. And what about BYRD?! Undefeated, at his prime, very slick and tricky as hell...and still, what happens when he fights Ike? He tries to clown but gets put on queer street, Davy Jones' locker or however you wanna say it!:boxing: I think that should be all the proof one needs, that BOLO punch Ike did him in with, for everyone to see that Ike really DID have it. Same kinda punch woulda knocked the lights out of Lewis or at least wobbled him.

Dudley
04-29-2011, 02:35 PM
What are the facts that would support such an argument. I'm not attacking or discrediting your perspective. I'm just curious to see how your opinion of formed.

My personal opinion would stems from watching both fighters. I too loved the idea if Ike and Lewis but lets get done some facts first.

Lewis is 6'5 Ike 6'2
Reach 84" Ike 76"

Common opponent Tua which they both went 12 rounds with. Ike went toe to toe an one a decision. Lewis went 12 round also also won a decision but on the cards it wasn't even close.

Byrd was a highlight reel KO for IKE Lewis would have done much of the same if they had met. Byrd has lost to all competent larger heavyweights.

Style wise lewis would break you down with a jab. double jab to body or head. In the mid to later rounds he would open up with his better punch, the right cross. another lethal weapon was his right uppercut which was almost equally as devastating for opponents reaching in, or on the inside. He also could fight inside and either tall or short depending on what suited him.

Style wise Ike had a very offensive style. Very good with a piston snapping jab decent right hand. He would break you down with the Jab and try to light you up for power shots, his hooks. His hooks where set up by his jab. He had a decent right hand but nothing special. Ike also had a good work rate and was built like a tank. One might say almost like a body builder which made him proficient on his feet but not nimble. Ike also fought on the outside very tall.

Lewis defense was his jab. He had decent ability to cover up he would hold and lean to slow the pace at times good reaction time getting out of the way of shots.

Ike defense was his jab also. but had a poor ability covering up he would use good head movement to substitute. I would say his fitness also allowed him to take punishing shots from time to time .

IMHO I see the fight going two ways a majority decision for lewis Or a late Ko by lewis.

Reasons being. When both fighters set up their offence with the same weapon
the person with the natural advantage usually wins. Lewis being taller with longer reach and throwing a jab down hill would eventually begin to discourage Ike with his jab Ike's being thrown uphill which is much more difficult. Considering Ike can't time him with a KO right cross, it only makes lewis's job easier. Foe Ike to throw a right hand he would also have to reach wish poses many problems, Lewis's Uppercut or his right hand. With the jab going into the later round a decent right hand is soon to follow. Ike would try to bull his way inside use head movement but considering the reach advantage of lewis and his ability to tie up and use his right uppercut Ike would always be the one walking him down but not instilling effective aggression. Lewis would stay on the outside because of his shaky chin BUT Ike doesn't posses something exceptional to bridge that gap. His work rate would keep him out of trouble but he wasn't slick or quick enough with his legs to set up his shots. If Ike pushed the action it would only be to his disadvantage his main weapon would be nerf'ed and he would leave himself open to more punishment, which is a double edged sword wearing on his stamina leading him into a late round KO or TKO.

just my thoughts what are yours?

Pastrano
04-29-2011, 02:56 PM
Mercer is 6'1 and still managed to bust up Lewis good, no? Thats exactly the point-Lewis had no problems with fighters his size, unless they were as good as Riddick Bowe that is. It was the smaller guys that were faster and could get to him from the inside that were the real problem. Like MCCALL. Like MERCER. Like RAHMAN even, he is 6'2 also. Well, Rahman differs somewhat from the first two, esp from McCall but nvm. Ike had very fast hands for a man of his size and build. You can see that in the Tua fight. He was able to throw and land them from different angles also. Angles always gave Lewis problems as well.

Lewis was best against predictable fighters like Morrison, Ruddock, Briggs etc. You always knew more or less what these guys had in store and they could never improvise or change their battle plan. Ike was different and so was McCall.

CarlosG815
04-29-2011, 03:04 PM
What are the facts that would support such an argument. I'm not attacking or discrediting your perspective. I'm just curious to see how your opinion of formed.

My personal opinion would stems from watching both fighters. I too loved the idea if Ike and Lewis but lets get done some facts first.

Lewis is 6'5 Ike 6'2
Reach 84" Ike 76"

Common opponent Tua which they both went 12 rounds with. Ike went toe to toe an one a decision. Lewis went 12 round also also won a decision but on the cards it wasn't even close.

Byrd was a highlight reel KO for IKE Lewis would have done much of the same if they had met. Byrd has lost to all competent larger heavyweights.

Style wise lewis would break you down with a jab. double jab to body or head. In the mid to later rounds he would open up with his better punch, the right cross. another lethal weapon was his right uppercut which was almost equally as devastating for opponents reaching in, or on the inside. He also could fight inside and either tall or short depending on what suited him.

Style wise Ike had a very offensive style. Very good with a piston snapping jab decent right hand. He would break you down with the Jab and try to light you up for power shots, his hooks. His hooks where set up by his jab. He had a decent right hand but nothing special. Ike also had a good work rate and was built like a tank. One might say almost like a body builder which made him proficient on his feet but not nimble. Ike also fought on the outside very tall.

Lewis defense was his jab. He had decent ability to cover up he would hold and lean to slow the pace at times good reaction time getting out of the way of shots.

Ike defense was his jab also. but had a poor ability covering up he would use good head movement to substitute. I would say his fitness also allowed him to take punishing shots from time to time .

IMHO I see the fight going two ways a majority decision for lewis Or a late Ko by lewis.

Reasons being. When both fighters set up their offence with the same weapon
the person with the natural advantage usually wins. Lewis being taller with longer reach and throwing a jab down hill would eventually begin to discourage Ike with his jab Ike's being thrown uphill which is much more difficult. Considering Ike can't time him with a KO right cross, it only makes lewis's job easier. Foe Ike to throw a right hand he would also have to reach wish poses many problems, Lewis's Uppercut or his right hand. With the jab going into the later round a decent right hand is soon to follow. Ike would try to bull his way inside use head movement but considering the reach advantage of lewis and his ability to tie up and use his right uppercut Ike would always be the one walking him down but not instilling effective aggression. Lewis would stay on the outside because of his shaky chin BUT Ike doesn't posses something exceptional to bridge that gap. His work rate would keep him out of trouble but he wasn't slick or quick enough with his legs to set up his shots. If Ike pushed the action it would only be to his disadvantage his main weapon would be nerf'ed and he would leave himself open to more punishment, which is a double edged sword wearing on his stamina leading him into a late round KO or TKO.

just my thoughts what are yours?

Are you of the opinion that the common opponent in Tua is really a comparable fight, as Tua was prime when he fought Ike, and when he fought Lewis he was a fat slob and in no condition to fight, weighing in at a career high 245 pounds?

And you are assuming that Lewis would beat Byrd?

Dudley
04-29-2011, 03:10 PM
Mercer is 6'1 and still managed to bust up Lewis good, no? Thats exactly the point-Lewis had no problems with fighters his size, unless they were as good as Riddick Bowe that is. It was the smaller guys that were faster and could get to him from the inside that were the real problem. Like MCCALL. Like MERCER. Like RAHMAN even, he is 6'2 also. Well, Rahman differs somewhat from the first two, esp from McCall but nvm. Ike had very fast hands for a man of his size and build. You can see that in the Tua fight. He was able to throw and land them from different angles also. Angles always gave Lewis problems as well.

Lewis was best against predictable fighters like Morrison, Ruddock, Briggs etc. You always knew more or less what these guys had in store and they could never improvise or change their battle plan. Ike was different and so was McCall.

Ray Mercer and Ike are two separate skill levels. Yeah Ray got to Lewis because. Ray knew how to box. Ike had fast single punches, not combinations . Also Ray's resume in regards to opposition what much deeper that Ike's possessed physical gifts he was by no means a cerebral fighter. Lewis would make most of his opposition predictable with his jab. He would lul them to sleep till he put them to bed with the right. I've never seen anything like that with Ike. He imposed his physical gifts on Byrd. Lewis would hold slow the fight and set it up again.

What Lewis are we talking about here, Prime lewis or pre-prime?

Dudley
04-29-2011, 03:12 PM
Are you of the opinion that the common opponent in Tua is really a comparable fight, as Tua was prime when he fought Ike, and when he fought Lewis he was a fat slob and in no condition to fight, weighing in at a career high 245 pounds?

And you are assuming that Lewis would beat Byrd?

Ah fair enough.

Chis bird. Give me a scenario he would win?

Again are we talking Prime vs Prime here? Because Ike had 20 fights.

Pastrano
04-29-2011, 03:21 PM
Ray Mercer and Ike are two separate skill levels. Yeah Ray got to Lewis because. Ray knew how to box. Ike had fast single punches, not combinations . Also Ray's resume in regards to opposition what much deeper that Ike's possessed physical gifts he was by no means a cerebral fighter. Lewis would make most of his opposition predictable with his jab. He would lul them to sleep till he put them to bed with the right. I've never seen anything like that with Ike. He imposed his physical gifts on Byrd. Lewis would hold slow the fight and set it up again.

What Lewis are we talking about here, Prime lewis or pre-prime?

Merciless lost to Holmes cos he couldn't box that well back then, even he said so. But he got better and I believe Ike would too. Ike did show signs of talent already, it was only a matter of would he get the proper training to further develop his skills. Hey, I'm not saying he would win FOR SURE but he had a good chance. He could take a helluva punch and Lewis always relied on stopping his opponent, first and foremost. I think he could punch himself out trying to stop Ibeabuchi. And then he'd get axed down. Bruno gave Lewis a boxing lesson, BRUNO for god's sake! Ok, Lewis wasn't yet really prime yet as a boxer, but still.

mickey malone
04-29-2011, 03:28 PM
Excellent post and very factual. however in this forum you have now "committed suicide" because this forum is a Lennox Lewis fanclub and you are not allowed to tell it like it really was about Lennox career, you can only make statements of how Lennox would simply be "Too Big, Too Tall and how he would simply keep his opponents behind the jab unto he felt like knocking them out... How Lennox would beat every heavyweight in history in a 10 fight series and how Lennox has got beautiful hairstyle etc etc.. you will now be ridiculed and trashed for your crime of questioning the career of the Great Lennox before you get banned from the forum and "THE THREE STOOGES" will celebrate your banishing (JAB, Scott & Joseph) and continue their quest to ban every member until only those 3 remain then they can tall to eachother about Lennox their hero.... over the last 12 months they have destroyed this History section and chased away every single member who knew the sport of boxing and enjoyed debating it. we are now left with The 3 Stooges backing eachother up and ganging up on anyone who dare to have any kind of opinion on this sport which differs from their own... my theory to all members who enjoy the sport of boxing is to abstain from this forum unto we get rid of JAB the moderator who has destroyed this history section along with his two cronies.... Sonnyboy :boxing:
Hi Sonny, i wouldn't say it's a Lennox Lewis fan club here as there's clearly several posters who don't rate him, but there's a total lack of objectivity going on here.

What we have to grasp with Lewis is that he was very capable of both losing to, as well as beating anyone in the top 20 throughout the whole of his career. I remember when he first turned up on British soil and proudly announced he was gonna win the British, Commonwealth, European and World heavyweight titles and i thought, like fvck u are! and i bet a pound to a pinch of sh1t you did too. But look, he went and proved us wrong and whether it be through good management, fighting contenders with issues or who weren't at the top of their game, the guy totally did what he said he was gonna do.

Like you i agree strongly he had a lot of flaws, but if you take away the 2 ko's, he got better with every fight, making the odd wise move along the way. He knew full well that his defense was crap so went over to Manny Steward inorder to fix it and imo was a much better fighter for it.
All in all, what he accomplished can't be sniffed at, and one can go on forever about the things he didn't do, just as one can with Dempsey, Marciano, Holmes and many other greats so to assassinate his career is purely futile.

Lewis is long gone now so let him rest in peace, because when you look at the standard of competition faced by the Klits and the fact he handed one of them a good slap on the way out, says quite a lot really.

Back to the TS question, i'd say a 20 fight Ibeabuchi would probably wipe the floor with a 20 fight Lewis, but against a seasoned Lewis would most likely lose on points.
Had he not had a mental illness and improved his defense, there's no reason to suggest he wouldn't have become champ.

Dudley
04-29-2011, 03:34 PM
Merciless lost to Holmes cos he couldn't box that well back then, even he said so. But he got better and I believe Ike would too. Ike did show signs of talent already, it was only a matter of would he get the proper training to further develop his skills. Hey, I'm not saying he would win FOR SURE but he had a good chance. He could take a helluva punch and Lewis always relied on stopping his opponent, first and foremost. I think he could punch himself out trying to stop Ibeabuchi. And then he'd get axed down. Bruno gave Lewis a boxing lesson, BRUNO for god's sake! Ok, Lewis wasn't yet really prime yet as a boxer, but still.

I respect your opinion, but it sounds like your creating from allot of unknowns.

Do I like the fight yes.

But Ike ****ed himself being a dumb ass.

Pastrano
04-29-2011, 03:49 PM
Mickey i agree with most of what you say buddy, yet i cannot have Lewis as an ATG Top 10 fighter in anyway. his chin was terrible and both Rahman & McCall who poleaxed him never replicated that kind of one punch KO power before or again in their careers, my biggest gripe with Lewis is his refusal to fight the best and only fighting guys who was on the downside of their career so Carlos hit the nail on the head on this subject when he said "Lewis would not fight Ike" that is also my opinion... Yet Lewis is the best Heavyweight Britain has ever had although he is Canadian and lived there since he was 12yrs old and still lives there.

:lol1: But McCall did, as I already stated, ko Akinwande with one punch. Maskaev fight...gotta see it again, was it one punch? Mighta been two.

mickey malone
04-29-2011, 06:39 PM
Mickey i agree with most of what you say buddy, yet i cannot have Lewis as an ATG Top 10 fighter in anyway. his chin was terrible and both Rahman & McCall who poleaxed him never replicated that kind of one punch KO power before or again in their careers, my biggest gripe with Lewis is his refusal to fight the best and only fighting guys who was on the downside of their career so Carlos hit the nail on the head on this subject when he said "Lewis would not fight Ike" that is also my opinion... Yet Lewis is the best Heavyweight Britain has ever had although he is Canadian and lived there since he was 12yrs old and still lives there.
I think this is where the dislike slips in, and tbh The fact he's officially English but won gold for Canada, then came to England to maximise his marketability while pretending to be a born again ****ney, was rather insulting to say the least but once again, it was another very wise career move on behalf of his management team. Infact, i'm sure he'd have been quite happy to start talking like Bob Marley and have based himself in Jamaica had it been deemed the better alternative.

He got smoked by McCall and Rahman for losing concentration, not for having a crap chin, and there also seems to be a misguided conception that McCall & Rahman were a couple of bums who couldn't bang. McCall in particular, has to be one of the strongest men ever to step into the ring.

Anyway Sonny, hope you don't get banned coz i've been trying to convince others that you don't really hate Lewis and it's all just a big wind-up lol

Scott9945
04-29-2011, 09:24 PM
Excellent post and very factual. however in this forum you have now "committed suicide" because this forum is a Lennox Lewis fanclub and you are not allowed to tell it like it really was about Lennox career, you can only make statements of how Lennox would simply be "Too Big, Too Tall and how he would simply keep his opponents behind the jab unto he felt like knocking them out... How Lennox would beat every heavyweight in history in a 10 fight series and how Lennox has got beautiful hairstyle etc etc.. you will now be ridiculed and trashed for your crime of questioning the career of the Great Lennox before you get banned from the forum and "THE THREE STOOGES" will celebrate your banishing (JAB, Scott & Joseph) and continue their quest to ban every member until only those 3 remain then they can tall to eachother about Lennox their hero.... over the last 12 months they have destroyed this History section and chased away every single member who knew the sport of boxing and enjoyed debating it. we are now left with The 3 Stooges backing eachother up and ganging up on anyone who dare to have any kind of opinion on this sport which differs from their own... my theory to all members who enjoy the sport of boxing is to abstain from this forum unto we get rid of JAB the moderator who has destroyed this history section along with his two cronies.... Sonnyboy :boxing:

Paranoid much? There isn't really much question that you are prone to ridiculous exaggerations. So will YOU be abstaining from posting your propaganda in this forum with various alts? Yeah, I didn't think so :lol1:

Scott9945
04-29-2011, 09:30 PM
if this was Ike vs Tyson instead of vs Lewis you would be the first to claim IKe would dish out a beating to Tyson ... talk about double-standards.

Actually it can't be a double standard if I never actually said that. And I didn't.

Tyson was in decline in the late 90's and vulnerable to someone like Ibeabuchi. But more than likely I would pick Mike based on his superior big fight experience. And since I plainly think that Lewis was a better fighter than Tyson in the late 90's, you really have no point anyway.

Scott9945
04-29-2011, 09:45 PM
Scott either didnt see the McCall fight or he just is a major Lewis nuthugger. McCall was actually beating Lewis in the first 2 rounds before the trauma set in. McCall was naturally more talented than Lewis-yes, I say that! Its his coke addiction that didn't let him build a legacy and a solid career once he won the belt. But he has proved himself after that with a few impressive performances, such as koing Akinwande himself with one punch, koing Maskaev in one round and beating Oquendo at 45.

And about Golota, he was far from a bum but he just couldnt keep it together. Dunno what his problem was, but he was seriously faked up in the head. Lewis was/is a lumbering bear who thanks to his big reach was able to land punches he otherwise never could. His balance, speed and footwork were all bad. He was so incomplete, McCall was ten times more complete. And above all-Lewis fought dirty. He was famous for holding and hitting and he obviously headbutted Vitali coz he was behind in the fight. He just wanted to stop him, at any cost.

Wow, any credibility you had just went down the toilet.

McCall lost every round on two of the scorecards, and won only one on the other. That is a fact, not an opinion. The trauma set in when he realized he was about to get his butt kicked.

What you said about Golota is simply gibberish. The part in bold must have come from Sonny's textbook.

And if Lewis "obviously headbutted Vitali", can you supply any footage to prove that? It was ruled to be caused by a punch, and the only other possibility would have been Lewis' scraping VK's face instead of punch.

Sorry, but this was a really bad post stuffed with bullspit.

JAB5239
04-30-2011, 06:09 AM
Anyway Sonny, hope you don't get banned coz i've been trying to convince others that you don't really hate Lewis and it's all just a big wind-up lol

Oh no, he finished in this section. Anything he posts is gone. He's been saying he was going to leave through 3 alts now, so now I will oblige him. When he comes back again that alt will be turned away. Dude is a straight up troll who when he isn't flat out lying is spewing misinformation and has serious issues with those who disagree with him and prove him wrong. :banned:

mickey malone
04-30-2011, 06:27 AM
Oh no, he finished in this section. Anything he posts is gone. He's been saying he was going to leave through 3 alts now, so now I will oblige him. When he comes back again that alt will be turned away. Dude is a straight up troll who when he isn't flat out lying is spewing misinformation and has serious issues with those who disagree with him and prove him wrong. :banned:
Lol, as you know, he'd just submitted a post explaining why he didn't hate Lewis and i was going backwards and forwards wondering where it had gone.

Obviously i can't comment, as i don't know what he's heen up to while i was away, but he had some fascinating arguments.

R.I.P Sonnyboy

Holtol
04-30-2011, 09:33 AM
Lol, as you know, he'd just submitted a post explaining why he didn't hate Lewis and i was going backwards and forwards wondering where it had gone.

Obviously i can't comment, as i don't know what he's heen up to while i was away, but he had some fascinating arguments.

R.I.P Sonnyboy


I think he created a lot of debate and was very knowledgeable and he was voted the best poster by quite a few people. And although some people may think his rating of Lewis was extream it was no more extream then Jabs who rates him at 5. And many people would rate Lewis closer to where Sonnyboy has him rated as opposed to Jab. I think in reality Lewis is closer to a 15 where Sonny boy rates him then at 5 where Jab rates him. I think Jab is just mad because Sonny boy makes good points why Lewis was not a top 10 heavyweight.

RubenSonny
04-30-2011, 09:51 AM
I think he created a lot of debate and was very knowledgeable and he was voted the best poster by quite a few people. And although some people may think his rating of Lewis was extream it was no more extream then Jabs who rates him at 5. And many people would rate Lewis closer to where Sonnyboy has him rated as opposed to Jab. I think in reality Lewis is closer to a 15 where Sonny boy rates him then at 5 where Jab rates him. I think Jab is just mad because Sonny boy makes good points why Lewis was not a top 10 heavyweight.

I don't think anyone has a problem with Sonnys rankings, in fact its a bit surprising that he even ranks him there.

Barn
04-30-2011, 09:57 AM
Nah, it was because, every time the word "Lewis" was mentioned.

"Lewis is not...a top 10 atg youre a fraud if you think he is"

Everytime Bowe was mentioned.

"Did you know lewis wanted extreme purses."

"poleaxed"

Holtol
04-30-2011, 10:00 AM
I don't think anyone has a problem with Sonnys rankings, in fact its a bit surprising that he even ranks him there.

He may have debated a little to passiionetely in some peoples opinion. But I would rather have passionate debaters then people just quietly agreeing. I learned a lot from Sonny Boys posts and also the counter posts by Jab and others.

The Surgeon
04-30-2011, 10:22 AM
He may have debated a little to passiionetely in some peoples opinion. But I would rather have passionate debaters then people just quietly agreeing. I learned a lot from Sonny Boys posts and also the counter posts by Jab and others.

Im with u Hotol, i enjoyed reading his posts and learned some stuff from both he and Jab during their arguments.

I think he was too harsh on Lewis who i openly hate but have to face reality and rate. But he made good arguements to back up his claims. Guy shoulda just kept his cool a bit more and not made things so personal and mabey he'd still get to post...

The Surgeon
04-30-2011, 10:25 AM
Anyway i like Ike's odds against Lewis, not coz im a Lewis hater but because i believe Ibeabuchi had real promise and talent. He hit as hard as Rahman or McCall imo, was strong as an ox, decent sized, good skills, the chin to handle Lewis' vaunted right hand, and the workrate to make Lennox very uncomftable, i think he'd have stopped him personally.

Pastrano
04-30-2011, 10:26 AM
Im with u Hotol, i enjoyed reading his posts and learned some stuff from both he and Jab during their arguments.

I think he was too harsh on Lewis who i openly hate but have to face reality and rate. But he made good arguements to back up his claims. Guy shoulda just kept his cool a bit more and not made things so personal and mabey he'd still get to post...

What I hated about Lewis was his ****iness and the way he would dismiss some opponents. Like when he called Vitali a fighter with "no heart or skill level" before the fight and then later punked out when Larry Merchant confronted him with that. Instead of admitting Vitali had heart and skill, he just avoided giving him credit and instead went on an egotripping rant!

:hail: Larry for that!:)

The Surgeon
04-30-2011, 10:29 AM
What I hated about Lewis was his ****iness and the way he would dismiss some opponents. Like when he called Vitali a fighter with "no heart or skill level" before the fight and then later punked out when Larry Merchant confronted him with that. Instead of admitting Vitali had heart and skill, he just avoided giving him credit and instead went on an egotripping rant!

:hail: Larry for that!:)

Larry was great in that interview, its times like that u gotta love the Old Bastarrd! Imma miss him when he's gone.

Lewis really let himself down there - classless.

Holtol
04-30-2011, 10:47 AM
Im with u Hotol, i enjoyed reading his posts and learned some stuff from both he and Jab during their arguments.

I think he was too harsh on Lewis who i openly hate but have to face reality and rate. But he made good arguements to back up his claims. Guy shoulda just kept his cool a bit more and not made things so personal and mabey he'd still get to post...

I did not see him making things more personal then others were. Eye for an eye tooth for a tooth imo.

I don't hate Lewis but I don't think he was that special. I think Bowe, Tyson, Holyfield and Douglas were all better fighters. Lewis was just consistantly good for a long period of time.

Watching Ike I had a sense that I was watching something special. There was a certain energy in the air when he was fighting. Anyone who at the time did not think that Ike would be a serious threat to Lewis is lieing. Ike was just plain scary. And my feeling at the time was Ike was going to wreck things for Lewis and the Klitschkos. Which I was not to happy about I should add. I actually like Lewis and the Klitschkos I just think Ike would beat them.

mickey malone
04-30-2011, 12:05 PM
I think he created a lot of debate and was very knowledgeable and he was voted the best poster by quite a few people. And although some people may think his rating of Lewis was extream it was no more extream then Jabs who rates him at 5. And many people would rate Lewis closer to where Sonnyboy has him rated as opposed to Jab. I think in reality Lewis is closer to a 15 where Sonny boy rates him then at 5 where Jab rates him. I think Jab is just mad because Sonny boy makes good points why Lewis was not a top 10 heavyweight.
When it comes to rating Lewis, i'm actually a lot more with Jab than i am with Sonnyboy, and Sonnyboy knows this. A year ago, he hated my guts but after tempering down my style a bit, he eventually followed suit and we've since been able to hold ballanced discussions on the sport.
He was also quite funny at times and not so long ago was describing himself as a 'one man army' so as much as i respect Jab's integrity on the decision to ban him, i'll also admit to being disappointed he's gone.

JAB5239
04-30-2011, 05:23 PM
Nah, it was because, every time the word "Lewis" was mentioned.

"Lewis is not...a top 10 atg youre a fraud if you think he is"

Everytime Bowe was mentioned.

"Did you know lewis wanted extreme purses."

"poleaxed"

Exactly. and now that he's not allowed to do that he is bitter and looking to cause trouble.

awais
04-30-2011, 05:31 PM
a lotta people seem to think that the 'if' solely focuses on ike's mental health. as if to say he would have definitely ruled the hw division had he not gone crazy. but who's to say he would have beaten everyone had he never gone crazy? i think ppl overrate ike in the sense that he never actualy proved himself, however unfortunate the circumstances. his wins over tua and byrd etc although good dont necessarily mean he was the best. im not putting ike down im just saying the bigger questions to be asked are what if he had to fight the other elite fighters, rather than what if he never went crazy