View Full Version : Ali vs. Louis- Tale Of The Tape (Comparisons)


Skydog
09-21-2005, 11:11 PM
Ali vs. Louis would be a MATCH. The 2 greatest boxers of all time going at it. 2 very different styles and characteristics, from 2 different time periods.

Ali was much faster than Louis. His constant dancing and jabbing would give Louis a hard time. Louis would have a rough time trying to catch Ali with solid punches. Ali's swift, accurate combinations to Louis's head would maybe open some cuts or start some swelling. His chin might be enough to withstand Louis' fists. Louis would probably underestimate Ali's power, which could make a huge problem, and could eventually break Louis.

Louis's punching skill would definetley be the factor for him. Ali had an iron chin, but he never fought someone with punching skills like Louis. Sure, Foreman hit harder, but his punches were wild and didn't land like Louis's. Louis's combinations to the head would wound Ali, but mix those with some to the body, and Ali would have a rough night. Louis's jab was good, too, and the uppercuts would give Ali a hard time.

If Joe Louis fought the Muhammad Ali that destroyed Cleveland Williams in 1966, he would be in for a long, grueling night.

If Muhammad Ali fought the Joe Louis that crushed (literally) Max Schmeling in 1938, Muhammad Ali would be in for a long, grueling night.

The_One77
10-03-2005, 06:20 PM
If Joe Louis can be outboxed by an old Jersey Joe Walcott and the lightheavy Billy Con, Muhammad ali certainly could too.

Kid Achilles
10-03-2005, 06:58 PM
If Ali can be floored by an old Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks, than Joe Louis can knock him out.

This kind of logic is fun!

Dempsey 1919
10-25-2005, 04:29 PM
Kid Achilles, are you on weed? Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper floored Clay when Clay was just starting to hone his skills. He wasn't the man he was in 1967 yet. Remember that Cooper didn't have a chance in their rematch when Ali was champ in 1966.

Joe louis was great, but he didn't have anything on Ali. Ali would have confused Louis the same way he confused the big bear Liston. Louis couldn't hit him. Nobody could hit him in 1967.

kapersky
10-26-2005, 01:37 AM
i think the young ali 1967 win, and lous win if he fight the old one.

Dempsey 1919
10-26-2005, 11:38 AM
an ali in 1974 would have used the rope-a-dope to tire out Louis and then he would go for the kill, kapersky. might i remind you, Ali-Foreman (the rumble in the jungle)

Skydog
10-26-2005, 11:51 PM
an ali in 1974 would have used the rope-a-dope to tire out Louis and then he would go for the kill, kapersky. might i remind you, Ali-Foreman (the rumble in the jungle)

Don't kid yourself, Foreman threw wild punches in that fight, and had much less stamina than Louis. A "rope-a-dope" tecnique wouldn't work on Louis, for he was far too accurate and his punches always hit and always hurt. Hell, Ali even said he was out on his feet a few times in the Foreman fight, and Foreman never really got a good punch off. Louis wouldn't swing as wildly as Foreman did in Zaire, and his punches would land well and wouldn't just hit arms.

Ali's chance would be much better if he referred to his "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" ways of the 60's, which beats the **** out of the "rope-a-dope" tactic of the 70's.

Dempsey 1919
10-27-2005, 01:10 AM
i'm not saying the rop-a-dope was better than speed. i'm just saying that ali in the 70s would have used that, or another strategy to beat louis because ali is that smart and that determined.

Frazier's 15th round
10-27-2005, 08:32 AM
Joe Louis W15

Dempsey 1919
10-27-2005, 02:46 PM
Joe Louis W15
back it up.

Kid Achilles
10-27-2005, 03:14 PM
Louis was also smart and determined. Do you realize that Norton solved Ali's style with simply his jab and persistence on his part? Louis on the other hand almost always performed much, much better in his rematches- the sign of an intelligent fighter who learns from his opponents.

Joe Louis to Foreman is a terrible comparison. They both had a hard jab that could seriously hurt you- that's about the only comparison you can make. Except even there Louis's jab was much more accurate as well as quicker.

70's Ali had an easy style for Louis. I can't see Louis losing to anyone who goes to the ropes. He was just too lethal a body puncher. You don't let Joe Louis corner you EVER! You either rush him, get passed that jab and take advantage of his less than stellar chin (which requires an iron chin and a lot of power) or you take advantage of his slow footwork and outmaneuver him.

Those were Joe Louis's two weaknesses. A less than great (but still solid) chin that wasn't reliable in a brawl, and somewhat plodding footwork. Losing to fighters who leaned back against the ropes and tried to catch punches off their gloves was never a weakness of his. He would demolish Ali's ribcage and midsection, mixing it up to his chin when given the smallest opportunity.

The Ali who beat Foreman gets stopped by a prime Brown Bomber within eight rounds. He only makes it that far because of his chin and heart.

Dempsey 1919
10-27-2005, 05:40 PM
ali is smart enough to beat any fighter. he would have to match up the right strategy with the fighter, including joe louis.

SnoopySmurf
10-28-2005, 12:34 AM
Louis never faced anyone like Clay/Ali. Ali took dancing into a higher level. No one could KO people whilst dancing backwards and Cassius Clay did just that to a few people.

Dempsey 1919
10-28-2005, 01:19 PM
Louis never faced anyone like Clay/Ali. Ali took dancing into a higher level. No one could KO people whilst dancing backwards and Cassius Clay did just that to a few people.
this man knows what he's talking about.

Skydog
10-28-2005, 06:58 PM
Joe Louis would definetly beat Ali of the 70's, but Louis vs. Ali/Clay of the 60's would be one hell of a fight.

Dempsey 1919
10-31-2005, 12:03 AM
Joe Louis would definetly beat Ali of the 70's, but Louis vs. Ali/Clay of the 60's would be one hell of a fight.
No, you have it mixed up. Ali/Clay of the 60s would definitely beat Louis, but Ali of the 70s vs. Louis would be one hell of a fight.

Skydog
01-12-2006, 08:04 PM
this man knows what he's talking about.

Oh, because he compliments Ali, he knows what he's talking about?

By the way, when did Ali ever KO someone while he was going backwards?

Dempsey1238
01-12-2006, 08:15 PM
Liston. He Ko Liston in fight 2 going backwards. NOW if it was a dive or not is something else. But I better do his Answer for him.

I think Louis would beat Ali both 1970's, and prime.

I think Louis would glove block the jab, and work his way in to land punchs to the body and head. Ali would take em of couse. I think it will be a war, And Louis would win a close points victory.


Ali did not bring dancing to a new level. He was doing the same thing Corbett did in the 1890's. And Corbett glide across the ring.

Skydog
01-12-2006, 08:17 PM
Oh, Liston. Yea, what a great KO. :p

Dempsey1238
01-12-2006, 08:23 PM
dont laugh about that punch.

We all know that was the hardest punch EVER thown in the annuals of boxing history. Nothing less of a perfect punch will ko Liston in the first round.

Liston was so daze he roll over. Marciano was feather fist compare to that punch vs Liston 2.

hellfire508
01-12-2006, 09:16 PM
This is my favourite heavyweight matchup. I love it.

The same points are always raised when this matchup is brought up. "Ali is vulnerable to the left hook". "Louis could be outboxed". Lets look at the styles.

The night Max Schmelling beat Joe Louis - he executed a perfectly thought-out plan. When had a tendancy to drop his left hand - after a jab, preparing for a left hook and after he threw the right. Jack Johnson pointed out this flaw to the Schmelling camp, and Schmelling nailed Louis with counter-right hands all night, before KOing him. Following this fight - Louis corrected the flaw, though at times did still make this mistake.

Ali was always vulnerable to the left hook because of his pull-back, hands low style. Unlike Louis, Ali had the speed to get away with holding his hands low. His evasiveness prevented him from taking severe beating that a normal man would take. He was dropped by left hooks from Banks, Cooper and Frazier. Louis wasn't prime for SChemlling - just like Ali wasn't prime for Cooper and Banks. And was past it for Frazier.

Now - Joe Louis was infact outboxed by Billy Conn for 12 rounds. Conn - a great light-heavyweight, who stood 6"1 and a mere 72 inch reach, weighed in at 174 for the fight. He was soundly outpointing Louis until Conn was put down hard, and out. Muhammad Ali was faster than heavyweight Billy Conn, and stood 6"3, 83" reach and weighed in the vicinity of 210 pounds. Conn did not have a reputation for a solid chin, Ali did. Ali could take bombs. If Ali used the ring - like the Terrell and Williams Ali, and used his reach and height advantage, he could do what Conn did - but better. Ali didn't invent the stick and move, but he was a master at it. He took it to another level though. He punched while moving - not just jabs, but right hands, hooks. He stung while he floated.

The Walcott fight - first one - was past Louis' prime. However, Walcott deserved the nod over the 15 rounds. Louis was down twice, and outboxed. Joe Louis was vulnerable to a mover with a solid jab. Yet the fighters who troubled him with this - couldn't stay away, or couldn't take the blows from Louis. Remebering Walcott was no star at that stage of his career. He had lost 1/4 of his fights. Though he did have wins over Elmer Ray and Joey Maxim. Again, Walcott was 6"0, and a 74" reach. The bigger, faster and granite chinned Ali could succeed where Conn and Walcott failed.

Onto Ali, he was primarily troubled by come-forward fighters who applied pressure, and jab a good jab. Ken Norton was the primary troubler for Ali - although, if you watch all three Norton bouts, you will see it was the flat-footed version that was troubled. Ali up on his toes bewildered Norton. Thus the non-stop dancing Ali from the 60s would most likely dominate Norton. Spinks - though well past Ali's prime, used pressure and a jab to beat Ali. Frazier, used pressure and a hook. Ali never faced anyone with the combination of power and combinations that Louis had. Foreman had more power, but nobody had combinations like Joe Louis. But the thing about Ali is - as he put it - "he hit me once and I'm gonna be gone". Ali in his prime was never hit by more than one - maybe two - punches at a time. He would get tagged, and move straight out of there.

It is always said, "Louis would break Ali down with the combinations. Hook, right, hook." Truth be told, I can see Louis landing a fair few left hooks. But his combinations would not be a factor in this fight. Ali would not allow himself to be cornered by Joe. PLus, Joe didn't apply the pressure that was required to crowd Ali - and trouble him. Louis applied subtle pressure, though he moved forward very slowly - almost plodding.

Ali could NOT rope-a-dope Joe Louis. That is suicide. He would be torn apart, and the referee would stop the fight. He was almost as powerful as Foreman, but alot more accurate and conservative - and didn't telegraph his punches. Ali would be TKO'd if he used rope-a-dope. However, prime Ali never did use it - so its not really an issue.

The way I see the fight going - Ali utilizes the ring, jabbing Louis, keeping him at bay. He flurries several times every round, moxing up his combinations. It's when this happens that Louis will strike - landing a few left hooks. I can see Ali maybe going down once, depending on how cautious he would be. If you are in the ring with Joe Louis - you are gonna be cautious. Ali would pick up the pace in the mid-rounds, as Louis starts to tire - not because of stamina - but because of the constant landing jabs. The fight would be stopped by the referee in the 14th round, with Louis unable to continue.

Skydog
01-12-2006, 10:35 PM
dont laugh about that punch.

We all know that was the hardest punch EVER thown in the annuals of boxing history. Nothing less of a perfect punch will ko Liston in the first round.

Liston was so daze he roll over. Marciano was feather fist compare to that punch vs Liston 2.

I totally agree.

That punch makes Foreman and Shavers look like ****ing *******.

Brassangel
01-13-2006, 01:05 AM
A lot of people, including Ali fans, mock the punch that floored Liston in Ali vs. Liston II. In truth, Liston actually said that Ali crunched him. Liston was constantly spinning clockwise at an incredible rate, trying to chase a superbly conditioned Ali, so his chemicals were already scrambled. Ali hadn't thrown many punches yet, so that fast hand came out of nowhere. Liston said the room was spinning when he hit the canvas, and he just didn't have the heart to continue against a fighter as prepared as Ali.

On to Louis vs. Ali.

I think that Louis plods around the ring, using some decent counter-jabs early on. Unfortunately, Ali's left/right combos work wonders on Louis's questionable chin, and he falls earlier than the crowd hopes. If Joe does manage to land a few combos on Ali, it's likely that Ali would take advantage of the 9 second rest and proceed to tear his opponent apart. When Ali went down, it didn't take a whopper of a punch to put him there. Ali was smart, however, and he usually avoided giving his opponent momentum, adrenaline, and opportunity to do any more damage by hitting the deck. By popping straight back up, he demoralized his opponents who felt that they landed a big-time blow; then he'd catch a 9-second breather and regroup to avoid further mistakes. Ali had a solid enough chin to pull off such antics, often toying with his opponents.

If Louis did manage to corner Ali--and I do mean if--he could do some serious damage. Ali was rarely cornered, and certainly not by fighters with Louis's punching skill. Frazier did some damage to Ali in all three of their fights when he could trap him, but Ali was a pinch slower by then. Louis had a great mind for the sport and could figure out his opponents, but I doubt that he could figure out a man who was a master at disrupting gameplans. Plus, Ali's punches would be really quick for that dropping left of Louis. All in all, I think it would be an entertaining fight where Ali would win decisively in the mid to late rounds.

Ali by TKO.

LondonRingRules
01-13-2006, 06:38 AM
==================Now - Joe Louis was infact outboxed by Billy Conn for 12 rounds. Conn - a great light-heavyweight, who stood 6"1 and a mere 72 inch reach, weighed in at 174 for the fight. He was soundly outpointing Louis until Conn was put down hard, and out. Muhammad Ali was faster than heavyweight Billy Conn, and stood 6"3, 83" reach and weighed in the vicinity of 210 pounds. Conn did not have a reputation for a solid chin, Ali did. Ali could take bombs. ================

**

LondonRingRules
01-13-2006, 06:44 AM
============Now - Joe Louis was infact outboxed by Billy Conn for 12 rounds. Conn - a great light-heavyweight, who stood 6"1 and a mere 72 inch reach, weighed in at 174 for the fight. He was soundly outpointing Louis until Conn was put down hard, and out. Muhammad Ali was faster than heavyweight Billy Conn, and stood 6"3, 83" reach and weighed in the vicinity of 210 pounds. Conn did not have a reputation for a solid chin, Ali did. Ali could take bombs. ======================

** Joe Louis was the only fighter to ever KO Conn. Conn did suffer a TKO loss in his 5th fight, his only one, hardly an unusual occurrance in a tough era for a beginning fighter. Conn had an excellent chin and took many good shots from Louis before folding.

Now, when Ali faced Liston, one reason Liston was such a big favorite is because Ali was considered to have a shaky chin. He certainly is likely to have lost the Cooper fight by KO had the 4th round rest period not been extended.

LondonRingRules
01-13-2006, 06:58 AM
==========A lot of people, including Ali fans, mock the punch that floored Liston in Ali vs. Liston II.=====================

** Try simulating the punch. Get into an orthodox defensive stance. Now, leap back off your leading left foot onto your back right foot and deliver a crossing straight right as you do so. There is absolutely no power in such a punch. Contrary to another part of the Step'nFetchit "anchor punch" myth, Sonny didn't step into the punch. Sonny was in a vulnerable position having leapt forward to deliver a jab, but he was stationary, gathering up his hands and feet when the punch landed. He went down because he was off balance when the punch landed and he figured that's the spot he was looking for in the fight.

In reality, the fight should've been ruled NC since Ali wouldn't go to the neutral corner and Walcott allowed the fight to go on before stopping the action seconds later to go talk to a reporter. Liston was never counted out, though he was starting to get bored while hanging out on the canvas!

hellfire508
01-13-2006, 07:18 AM
============Now - Joe Louis was infact outboxed by Billy Conn for 12 rounds. Conn - a great light-heavyweight, who stood 6"1 and a mere 72 inch reach, weighed in at 174 for the fight. He was soundly outpointing Louis until Conn was put down hard, and out. Muhammad Ali was faster than heavyweight Billy Conn, and stood 6"3, 83" reach and weighed in the vicinity of 210 pounds. Conn did not have a reputation for a solid chin, Ali did. Ali could take bombs. ======================

** Joe Louis was the only fighter to ever KO Conn. Conn did suffer a TKO loss in his 5th fight, his only one, hardly an unusual occurrance in a tough era for a beginning fighter. Conn had an excellent chin and took many good shots from Louis before folding.

Now, when Ali faced Liston, one reason Liston was such a big favorite is because Ali was considered to have a shaky chin. He certainly is likely to have lost the Cooper fight by KO had the 4th round rest period not been extended.

I'm not questioning Conn's heart. It's his chin. He was floored by lesser opponents a few times. Krieger, Ray Actis and Cook floored Conn. I'm just saying in comparison to Ali - his chin wasn't that great. And yes, you are right about Ali coming into the Liston fight. His chin wasn't deemed to be good. Yet we know his chin was amazing, from his fights with Shavers, Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Lyle etc.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 12:15 PM
============Now - Joe Louis was infact outboxed by Billy Conn for 12 rounds. Conn - a great light-heavyweight, who stood 6"1 and a mere 72 inch reach, weighed in at 174 for the fight. He was soundly outpointing Louis until Conn was put down hard, and out. Muhammad Ali was faster than heavyweight Billy Conn, and stood 6"3, 83" reach and weighed in the vicinity of 210 pounds. Conn did not have a reputation for a solid chin, Ali did. Ali could take bombs. ======================

** Joe Louis was the only fighter to ever KO Conn. Conn did suffer a TKO loss in his 5th fight, his only one, hardly an unusual occurrance in a tough era for a beginning fighter. Conn had an excellent chin and took many good shots from Louis before folding.

Now, when Ali faced Liston, one reason Liston was such a big favorite is because Ali was considered to have a shaky chin. He certainly is likely to have lost the Cooper fight by KO had the 4th round rest period not been extended.

you're retarded. 9 sec. don't mean crap. ali would have ko'd cooper by the 6th round.

dognusty
01-13-2006, 02:42 PM
If you look at any sport more speed and agility combined with smarts and skill gives that person/team an edge.

Now if Ali does not use those advantages than he would be in for a long night. Regardless of Ali's chin getting hit cleanly by Louis may KO him.

If Ali uses those advantages, he can help nullify Louis advantage in punching power by slipping punches and picking of shots with his gloves. By doing this he can force Louis to get into a "boxing" match with him. Which, during Ali's prime, he was excellent at.

Brockton Lip
01-13-2006, 02:49 PM
9 sec. don't mean crap. ali would have ko'd cooper by the 6th round.

True! The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 03:14 PM
If you look at any sport more speed and agility combined with smarts and skill gives that person/team an edge.

Now if Ali does not use those advantages than he would be in for a long night. Regardless of Ali's chin getting hit cleanly by Louis may KO him.

If Ali uses those advantages, he can help nullify Louis advantage in punching power by slipping punches and picking of shots with his gloves. By doing this he can force Louis to get into a "boxing" match with him. Which, during Ali's prime, he was excellent at.

good point, but i doubt that louis would punch hard enough to ko ali.

blockhead
01-13-2006, 04:02 PM
an ali in 1974 would have used the rope-a-dope to tire out Louis and then he would go for the kill, kapersky. might i remind you, Ali-Foreman (the rumble in the jungle)
idiot, louis was a far smarter fighter than foreman ever was. the rope a dope would have done nothing for ali against louis and ali would have been smart enough to know that as well.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 04:25 PM
idiot, louis was a far smarter fighter than foreman ever was. the rope a dope would have done nothing for ali against louis and ali would have been smart enough to know that as well.

well, if not the rope-a-dope, he would have used something else in his arsenal; he's just that smart.

supaduck
01-13-2006, 06:29 PM
Ali by UD. He's too fast.

hellfire508
01-13-2006, 10:22 PM
well, if not the rope-a-dope, he would have used something else in his arsenal; he's just that smart.


LOL. That made me laugh out loud. Butterfly, you are such a great fan of Ali - but if you really want some credibility when trying to argue for him - talk about styles, analyse careers and opponents...do something! Just don't say, "he would have used something to beat Joe...he was just that smart".

Cmon Butterfly.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 10:53 PM
LOL. That made me laugh out loud. Butterfly, you are such a great fan of Ali - but if you really want some credibility when trying to argue for him - talk about styles, analyse careers and opponents...do something! Just don't say, "he would have used something to beat Joe...he was just that smart".

Cmon Butterfly.

i believe he could have used the rope-a-dope on louis, now that i think about it. ali knew how to cover-up his face, and none of louis body shots would hurt him(if foreman couldn't), so he could have pulled it off.

Yogi
01-13-2006, 11:06 PM
and none of louis body shots would hurt him(if foreman couldn't)

Considering the relatively light punching Karl Mildenberger hurt Ali with a hook to the body in about the 8th or 9th round of their fight, by your simple logic that must mean he hits harder to the body than Big George does, hey?

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 11:13 PM
Considering the relatively light punching Karl Mildenberger hurt Ali with a hook to the body in about the 8th or 9th round of their fight, by your simple logic that must mean he hits harder to the body than Big George does, hey?

the body training ali did for the foreman fight helped him take those shots. he didn't train the body that much for mildenburger.

hellfire508
01-13-2006, 11:22 PM
Butterfly is right. In the second half of his career, Ali would lean on the ropes and let his sparring partner pummel him. He trained himself to take punishment - for his reflexes weren't the same.

However- Rope a dope against Joe Louis i suicide. Foreman throws wild punches, and caught Ali flush several times. Louis throws crisp, fast punches - almost as hard - and would pummel Ali to a stoppage. I'm sorry butterfly, but if you know boxing - you know Ali could not win if he rope-a-doped Joe Louis.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 11:38 PM
Butterfly is right. In the second half of his career, Ali would lean on the ropes and let his sparring partner pummel him. He trained himself to take punishment - for his reflexes weren't the same.

However- Rope a dope against Joe Louis i suicide. Foreman throws wild punches, and caught Ali flush several times. Louis throws crisp, fast punches - almost as hard - and would pummel Ali to a stoppage. I'm sorry butterfly, but if you know boxing - you know Ali could not win if he rope-a-doped Joe Louis.

louis may have been more accurate than foreman, but he didn't hit harder. so ali would be able to take more punches to the head from louis, so i think it's possible.

hellfire508
01-13-2006, 11:47 PM
louis may have been more accurate than foreman, but he didn't hit harder. so ali would be able to take more punches to the head from louis, so i think it's possible.

Oh my god! You cannot get it through your head?!?!?

Louis is one of THE hardest hitters ever! He may well have hit harder than Foreman, there is no way of proving it. He nearly decapitated people in the ring. Ali would get TKO'd if he rope-a-doped Joe Louis! END OF STORY!

Dempsey 1919
01-14-2006, 12:04 AM
Oh my god! You cannot get it through your head?!?!?

Louis is one of THE hardest hitters ever! He may well have hit harder than Foreman, there is no way of proving it. He nearly decapitated people in the ring. Ali would get TKO'd if he rope-a-doped Joe Louis! END OF STORY!

louis does not in any way punch harder than foreman. louis fought smaller people and wore smaller gloves, that's why he did more damage.

Brassangel
01-14-2006, 12:09 AM
Joe Louis wore gloves that were usually no heavier than 8 oz. George Foreman wore gloves that were 12-14 oz. That's a considerable padding difference. I would say that George's KO percentage, being higher that Louis's, speaks for itself. Especially since George fought more fights.

Louis was a better boxer than Foreman, but he definitely didn't hit harder than Big George.

Dempsey1238
01-14-2006, 12:14 AM
I would like to point out when compare to power, Louis was able to break bones in bouts with Uzcudun(Mouth guard in gums), and Schmeling, I sure there are others.

Other thing is Louis knock em flat, OUTCOLD.
That is a BIG diffent than TKO wins over Fraizer or Ken Norton, whom seem to get up evey time Big George knock them down.
I think Foreman's power is over rated a bit, I not saying he cant hit, I just saying that he seems to get by with TKO wins, and declear the hardest hitter ever, When Louis knocks em in next week, and people think Louis is a weak puncher compare to Foreman.

Dempsey 1919
01-14-2006, 12:16 AM
Joe Louis wore gloves that were usually no heavier than 8 oz. George Foreman wore gloves that were 12-14 oz. That's a considerable padding difference. I would say that George's KO percentage, being higher that Louis's, speaks for itself. Especially since George fought more fights.

Louis was a better boxer than Foreman, but he definitely didn't hit harder than Big George.

thanks alot. good karma for you!

Dempsey 1919
01-14-2006, 12:23 AM
I would like to point out when compare to power, Louis was able to break bones in bouts with Uzcudun(Mouth guard in gums), and Schmeling, I sure there are others.

Other thing is Louis knock em flat, OUTCOLD.
That is a BIG diffent than TKO wins over Fraizer or Ken Norton, whom seem to get up evey time Big George knock them down.
I think Foreman's power is over rated a bit, I not saying he cant hit, I just saying that he seems to get by with TKO wins, and declear the hardest hitter ever, When Louis knocks em in next week, and people think Louis is a weak puncher compare to Foreman.

i guess i'll have to repeat myself. the small chinny bums louis fought during his career cannot compare to norton, frazier, and chuvalo, who were big and had strong chins.

louis wore small gloves. fact: smaller gloves = more knockdowns and knockouts. the fact that louis broke bones means what? just that they were weak bums most of them. ask chuck wepner what foreman did to him. foreman hit him with one shot, and the bone around wepner's eye was sticking out of his skin! and this is with 12 ounce gloves and against a tough sob like wepner.

foreman would have killed, yes literally killed all the fighters that louis ko'd in the first round. no way they would live if george wore 6 ounce gloves, and referee's didn't stop fights as often as in the 70s.

hellfire508
01-14-2006, 12:25 AM
I would like to point out when compare to power, Louis was able to break bones in bouts with Uzcudun(Mouth guard in gums), and Schmeling, I sure there are others.

Other thing is Louis knock em flat, OUTCOLD.
That is a BIG diffent than TKO wins over Fraizer or Ken Norton, whom seem to get up evey time Big George knock them down.
I think Foreman's power is over rated a bit, I not saying he cant hit, I just saying that he seems to get by with TKO wins, and declear the hardest hitter ever, When Louis knocks em in next week, and people think Louis is a weak puncher compare to Foreman.

I agree Greek. I believe Foreman hit slightly harder, but Louis was a muhc more effective puncher, and caused alot more damage. I always used to think Foreman hit harder than Louis - until I bought a collection of Louis fights, and saw what he could really do. I think he hits pretty close to foreman's power. And please don't bring up KO percentages...Foreman's career was padded early on.

George is my second favourite heavyweight ever, but in this case - he can't match Louis for destructive capability.

hellfire508
01-14-2006, 12:28 AM
Oh my god shut up Butterfly.

"Foreman would literally kill the bums Louis fought in the first round".

FACT - Louis' resume is better than Foreman's.

Brassangel
01-14-2006, 12:34 AM
Okay, every critic on this thread seems to miss the part where Louis was wearing gloves that were literally half the weight and padding of Foreman's. Also, the design of the "stuffing" of the gloves in the earlier days was severely flawed. As a fight wore on, it was common knowledge that the padding would gradually shift away from the knuckles which wore at the thinner tissue. By the 70's the gloves were twice as heavy, and built with wear and tear in mind. Before that time, the gloves basically kept the knuckles from suffering too much damage.

Additionally, the field of fighters was faster, stronger, and tougher as boxing progressed. You don't think that Foreman would have broken some bones had he fought a bunch of 190-200 pound fighters wearing 6 oz. gloves with padding that wore thin throughout the match? 6 oz. gloves are less than 2 oz. heavier than the ones worn by the UFC fighters, and there's plenty of blood and breaks there; with only 3 rounds of fighting! Now give tiny gloves, with loose padding, to a taped set of knuckles that are trained to strike another human being for 15 rounds and you get broken bones.

NOTE: I do believe that Louis was a better, more accurate, and more effective puncher than Foreman. Given the circumstances, Big George would have put holes in people's faces if he had the same equipment.

Dempsey1238
01-14-2006, 12:35 AM
i guess i'll have to repeat myself. the small chinny bums louis fought during his career cannot compare to norton, frazier, and chuvalo, who were big and had strong chins.

louis wore small gloves. fact: smaller gloves = more knockdowns and knockouts. the fact that louis broke bones means what? just that they were weak bums most of them. ask chuck wepner what foreman did to him. foreman hit him with one shot, and the bone around wepner's eye was sticking out of his skin! and this is with 12 ounce gloves and against a tough sob like wepner.

foreman would have killed, yes literally killed all the fighters that louis ko'd in the first round. no way they would live if george wore 6 ounce gloves, and referee's didn't stop fights as often as in the 70s.

Baer, Sharkey, Schmling, Lewis, Conn, Godoy, and OTHERs were FAR from bums as you called em.

The gloves had not change much from the 1940's-1970.

Bill Corum said that heavyweight champion ships mostly use 16 gloves, but the Marciano Moore used 8 OZ for this bout, Corum was thinking it may add power to Marciano's Power, of couse Marciano took 9 rounds to ko Moore in thsos gloves.

I think the heaver the glove, the more power you have. The Gloves are made to protect the hands, NOT THE OTHER GUY. The gloves today are harder, and cause a bit more damage,.

Going out and claiming Foreman will killed people with the gloves from the 1940's is over acted.

Dempsey1238
01-14-2006, 12:41 AM
Corum said 8 OZ gloves mostly for a heavyweight title fight,

But here they used 6 Oz gloves for the Marciano Moore fight.
As it turn out, the 6 OZ gloves did not have the BANG like Ko for Moore like the Walcott Ko had.

Dempsey 1919
01-14-2006, 03:07 AM
Baer, Sharkey, Schmling, Lewis, Conn, Godoy, and OTHERs were FAR from bums as you called em.

The gloves had not change much from the 1940's-1970.

Bill Corum said that heavyweight champion ships mostly use 16 gloves, but the Marciano Moore used 8 OZ for this bout, Corum was thinking it may add power to Marciano's Power, of couse Marciano took 9 rounds to ko Moore in thsos gloves.

I think the heaver the glove, the more power you have. The Gloves are made to protect the hands, NOT THE OTHER GUY. The gloves today are harder, and cause a bit more damage,.

Going out and claiming Foreman will killed people with the gloves from the 1940's is over acted.

all the men you just named there were far inferior to frazier, norton, lyle, ali, etc. they are way smaller, and less less chin.

the gloves probably doubled in size from '40 to '70. stop lying.

the heavier the glove, the more padded the punches are. why do you think that they use 16oz. or more size gloves in sparring? they do that to minimize the damage. when jack johnson was champ, they were using like 4oz. gloves and more people were being knocked out than now. foreman would kill people weighing 190 that louis fought and ko'd in the first. number one, foreman's punching power is unmatched. number two, the people were smaller in the 1940s. number three, the gloves were alot smaller. and number four, referees let fights go alot longer in the 40s than in the 70s, if a fighter was hurt.

Yaman
01-14-2006, 09:44 AM
Now this would be the greatest fight ever!!
These 2 probably are the greatest fighters ever. As far who would win i think...both could beat eachother if they fought 3 times. BUT i think Joe Louis was the better fighter only because he had so much power. So i think it would be 2-1 for Louis.

Dempsey1238
01-14-2006, 12:00 PM
all the men you just named there were far inferior to frazier, norton, lyle, ali, etc. they are way smaller, and less less chin.

the gloves probably doubled in size from '40 to '70. stop lying.

the heavier the glove, the more padded the punches are. why do you think that they use 16oz. or more size gloves in sparring? they do that to minimize the damage. when jack johnson was champ, they were using like 4oz. gloves and more people were being knocked out than now. foreman would kill people weighing 190 that louis fought and ko'd in the first. number one, foreman's punching power is unmatched. number two, the people were smaller in the 1940s. number three, the gloves were alot smaller. and number four, referees let fights go alot longer in the 40s than in the 70s, if a fighter was hurt.


They just impove the padded, so the horse hair wont shift during thowning punchs. Foreman will not killed people useing the gloves from the 1940's. Your acting like Foreman could killed people with his bare fist, if that was so, Than Tyson would have been killing people he hit out side the ring(A fellow boxer, and 2 people that rare ended him)

Non of thsos guys were killed when Tyson hit them. Out side of being a bigger glove, Not much has change, they just protected the hands better. I sure Patterson, who happen to fight in both the 1950's and up until the early 1970's, would not think there was much a diffent from the gloves.

Farr and co may not be as good as Boxers than Fraizer or Ali, BUT they were a step a head of the Qurreys, and the Nortons of Ali;s time. They were far from inferior. They would be champions in Ali's era, if Ali, Fraizr of Foreman were not around.

Southpaw Stinger
01-14-2006, 01:24 PM
2 great fighters, 1 great winner. Ali.

moondog0
01-16-2006, 10:42 AM
Ali was a great fighter but Lewis would be my pick for the best, no matter what kind of gloves they wore.

LS-Injection
01-16-2006, 10:44 AM
Louis might have had a chance but he didn't have hand speed…Ali for me.

Dempsey1238
01-16-2006, 11:54 AM
Louis has hand speed. he was one of the fastest heavyweights of all time in regards to hand speed.

LS-Injection
01-16-2006, 12:19 PM
Louis has hand speed. he was one of the fastest heavyweights of all time in regards to hand speed.
Maybe in his day, what was years & years ago, Ali would have done a mind worp on his ass as much as i like Louis, but it's true!

moondog0
01-16-2006, 12:50 PM
Louis had great hand speed! I watched both of those fighters on ESPN over the weekend, Louis never quit coming at you, when he got hit he counterpunched, they just don't give ground in those days, Ali would dance around Louis, but was more aggressive when he was younger, the younger Ali(Clay) would have lost to Louis, the older Ali was smarter in a big fight.(such as Foreman fight),,,,

Dempsey1238
01-16-2006, 01:10 PM
I was watching Ali, Brains Skill and Guts the other day.

In Ali's early runing, the guy was hit, and I mean often, he was even knockdown vs Sonny Banks, among other fighters. Now this was WAY before Ali peak. I think he started proving himself by the time of the Jones bout. Or impove. that is.

Louis was slow on foot, but he was top 2 or 3 with the fastest set of hands EVER. Lee Ramage, Schmling 2, Paycheck, 2 Ton Toney, he just had a fast set of hands, maybe I dare say faster than Ali??? Maybe, if not, Louis may have been a hair behind in that regard.

Now Ali was faster on foot, I give you guys that. Dempsey also had a fast set of hands too. And he may be on level of Ali, or a hair behind. But unlike Louis, Dempsey was also fast on his feet. Louis I belive could beat Ali, because the abilty to slip or a LONG forgoten art, block the jab with the glove, may cause Ali trouble, and unlike Fraizer, will not wear out when they get in the later rounds, (And louis being a harder target than Frazer imo) Or unlike Foreman will not go crazy and waste his punchs like he did, and got gas about the 5th round or so.
Louis will still hurt in round 13 or 14.

I will not relly bet on this fight, as it could go the other way with Ali's speed on foot, and the abilty to keep foes on the outside. Even though this will be a bout of styles, the other guy must make the other fight HIS fight, for the winner imo.

I make it 50 50.

Dempsey 1919
01-16-2006, 06:21 PM
no way louis would win. billy conn was beating louis on points in both fights. so was watcott. they were fast-moving. ali moves faster than both of them. only conn and watcott were ko'd by louis is why they lost. but the only reason they were stopped is because they were small, but ali is big, plus he has a strong chin. so ali would either beat louis on points, no doubt, or ko him in the mid or late rounds.

Dempsey1238
01-16-2006, 06:32 PM
Louis was ahead in the rematch leading to round 8.

I had the fight like 7-1 or something like that in Conn 2.

Dont forget Louis went down to 199 in weight, to give the 170 pounder a better shot. Louis drain himself in taking off the weight.

Dempsey 1919
01-16-2006, 07:02 PM
Louis was ahead in the rematch leading to round 8.

I had the fight like 7-1 or something like that in Conn 2.

Dont forget Louis went down to 199 in weight, to give the 170 pounder a better shot. Louis drain himself in taking off the weight.

what do you mean he was drained? he dropped weight to give himself a chance! why would anybody give the opponent a better chance, it makes no sense. louis lost weight to make himself faster to give himself a better chance. just like he put on weight to make himself stronger when fighting big guys like abe simon and buddy baer.

Dempsey1238
01-16-2006, 07:10 PM
He drop weight in fight 1, because Conn weight in the 170's. He felt it was unfair, and he did not want it to look to bad.

As it turn out it almost cost him the title. Louis did not have the enegy, to catch up to Conn, as Conn tee off on him, and even stagger him round after round.

After the 12 round, Conn try to slug it with Louis, to knock him out, and it was a mistake. Louis put togetor a combin and ended it in round 13.

Fight 2, was one sided.

Like I said, Louis drain himself down to weight to try to be as close to Conn as can be. Outside the ring, Louis and Conn were freinds, So I think that played some part in him trying to lose weight for Conn. Louis lost 2 much weight for that fight.

Dempsey 1919
01-16-2006, 07:15 PM
He drop weight in fight 1, because Conn weight in the 170's. He felt it was unfair, and he did not want it to look to bad.

As it turn out it almost cost him the title. Louis did not have the enegy, to catch up to Conn, as Conn tee off on him, and even stagger him round after round.

After the 12 round, Conn try to slug it with Louis, to knock him out, and it was a mistake. Louis put togetor a combin and ended it in round 13.

Fight 2, was one sided.

Like I said, Louis drain himself down to weight to try to be as close to Conn as can be. Outside the ring, Louis and Conn were freinds, So I think that played some part in him trying to lose weight for Conn. Louis lost 2 much weight for that fight.

man, i don't care if conn was his brother, no way would louis jepordize his title, and probably his career like that. he did it to make himself faster.

Dempsey1238
01-16-2006, 07:16 PM
I have a Louis bio, and Conn himself said Louis lost weight, to make it MORE even weight wise.

Dempsey 1919
01-16-2006, 07:19 PM
I have a Louis bio, and Conn himself said Louis lost weight, to make it MORE even weight wise.

maybe that's what he thought.

Dempsey1238
01-16-2006, 07:28 PM
the thing is Louis was way underweight for that fight, he dyhydrated him self to try to go down to Conn's weight. Louis lost speed, and enegry going into the fight.

Louis still won,

Take Tommy Farr, he had a style just like Ali's, But Louis was not in any trouble in loseing his crown, and sail to a easy points victory in 15 rounds.

With Conn, who weight in the 170's(The promotos, LIE about Conn making it to the 180's, they fear if they told the true weight, it will scare of ticket holders.)

Louis feeling it will be unfair lost more weight than he should have.

IT had the fight more fair, as Louis was tired and drain for most of the 12 rounds, that he got pummle in. But he landed that combo in round 13 to retain his title.
I dont know WHY Louis would do that, but he did. Even Blackburn gave Louis a earfill when he found out shortly before the fight was about to start.

Dempsey 1919
01-16-2006, 07:32 PM
the thing is Louis was way underweight for that fight, he dyhydrated him self to try to go down to Conn's weight. Louis lost speed, and enegry going into the fight.

Louis still won,

Take Tommy Farr, he had a style just like Ali's, But Louis was not in any trouble in loseing his crown, and sail to a easy points victory in 15 rounds.

With Conn, who weight in the 170's(The promotos, LIE about Conn making it to the 180's, they fear if they told the true weight, it will scare of ticket holders.)

Louis feeling it will be unfair lost more weight than he should have.

IT had the fight more fair, as Louis was tired and drain for most of the 12 rounds, that he got pummle in. But he landed that combo in round 13 to retain his title.
I dont know WHY Louis would do that, but he did. Even Blackburn gave Louis a earfill when he found out shortly before the fight was about to start.

wow, i'm impressed. guess i was wrong.

Imira
01-17-2006, 01:22 PM
Take Tommy Farr, he had a style just like Ali's, But Louis was not in any trouble in loseing his crown, and sail to a easy points victory in 15 rounds.



Hold on there, Greek. After watching this fight 4 more times, I'll have to say Farr's style was vastly different from Ali's. Farr shuffled around and applied pressure from behind his jab, then moved in to land his bigger punches from a crouch. I would say he was much more like Frazier.

Ali stayed outside and waited for his opponent to come to him in order to sting him with counterpunches and combinations. Ali rarely did any noticable leading until he had his opponent retreating. Farr, on the other hand, did most of the leading in his fights and seldom ever waited for his opponent to lead.

The thing about Farr that troubled Louis was his crowding, handspeed and head movement. Farr was not a dancer. Louis didn't fight well when he was crowded. Godoy and Farr were two of his more troubling opponents because they both took away his punching distance. Especially Godoy. But saying Farr fought like Ali is way off base.

Against Conn, Louis faced off against a dancer who darted in, fired off a volley and got the heck out of there before Louis could set himself to respond. Stick and move at its purest. Had it not been for bodyshots during the infighting, Louis probably would never had landed anything appreciable during the fight. Pastor was similar in that he was a fleet-footed fighter who liked to dance around the ring which made it difficult for "Shuffling Joe" to get into proper punching range.

Dempsey1238
01-17-2006, 02:18 PM
well Farr was not slugging it out with Louis in that 15 round fight, it seem they were Farr was jabbing at Louis, and both keeping there distant, it became more of a jabbing fight, and not relly a action pack brawl.

Farr did not dance like Ali, as he stood flat footed during the fight. But he used movement.

Imira
01-17-2006, 04:19 PM
well Farr was not slugging it out with Louis in that 15 round fight, it seem they were Farr was jabbing at Louis, and both keeping there distant, it became more of a jabbing fight, and not relly a action pack brawl.

I never said they were slugging it out, but Farr was bringing the fight to Louis using head movement and his jab to apply pressure. Ali did not fight this way. Not even remotely.

Farr did not dance like Ali, as he stood flat footed during the fight. But he used movement.

Right, but his fighting style was not predicated on movement. Foot work is not the reason Farr gave Louis trouble throughout the fight. This is my point.

Tha Greatest
01-17-2006, 08:28 PM
Are you guys kidding me...?

Who here actually thinks Ali can beat Louis...
NEVER...

I don't care what Ali it is...

1959, 1964, 1969, 1975, 2005, etc.

Ali had LOTS of flaws, but made up for it with natural talents like his reflex's, footwork, and handspeed...

Joe Louis was the greatest puncher to ever put on a pair of gloves. His punches were so accurate, he had a beautiful jab, beautiful left hook and a bombing straight right...and devastating body shots...

ooo...and he had the quick, short, precise shots that would knock ANYBODY out...

He had a killer jab...Like Kid Achilles said, Norton exposed Ali as did so many other people...

Ali don't got **** on Louis..
I don't see Ali winning this fight, I see it being one sided actually, Joe Louis would expose Ali of all his flaws...

and knock him out...I don't see this fight going past 8...

hellfire508
01-17-2006, 09:41 PM
Are you guys kidding me...?

Who here actually thinks Ali can beat Louis...
NEVER...

I don't care what Ali it is...

1959, 1964, 1969, 1975, 2005, etc.

Ali had LOTS of flaws, but made up for it with natural talents like his reflex's, footwork, and handspeed...

Joe Louis was the greatest puncher to ever put on a pair of gloves. His punches were so accurate, he had a beautiful jab, beautiful left hook and a bombing straight right...and devastating body shots...

ooo...and he had the quick, short, precise shots that would knock ANYBODY out...

He had a killer jab...Like Kid Achilles said, Norton exposed Ali as did so many other people...

Ali don't got **** on Louis..
I don't see Ali winning this fight, I see it being one sided actually, Joe Louis would expose Ali of all his flaws...

and knock him out...I don't see this fight going past 8...

Louis dropped his left after throwing a straight right, and a jab. Yes even AFTER the Schemlling annihalation, Louis still did it. Look at Ali against Foreman, landing straight right leads. Ali would nail Louis with them all night, and then stay away. Louis was basically a very slow moving fighter, and could not catch and corner Ali like Frazier and Norton did. That's what their pressure did, something Louis lacked.

And I think Louis' normal advantage in handspeed - that he usually had - would not be the case here. Ali would beat Louis to the punch, and get out - not allowing Louis to land his combinations.

And what is this rubbish about Norton "exposing" Ali?
a) Ali was past his prime. Much like Charles exposed Louis yes? Primes comes at different times - Ali was 31, Louis was 36 - but power is the last thing to go, reflexes and speed are the first.

b) Ali had a broken jaw in the first fight, and couldn't fight his normal fight.

c) When Ali performed like he did in his prime - ala dancing and moving - he totally outclassed Norton.

d) Ali arguably lost the third fight - maybe - but he was shot, and everyone knows it.

"Ali don't got **** on Louis" - Speed, reflexes, chin, size.
Both were laser accurate, Louis had better power. Both had excellent combinations.

"and he had the quick, short, precise shots that would knock ANYBODY out..." ---- So why does he have 14 decisions on his record? If guys like Bob Pastor can go the distance, then I think the fleet-footed, evasive master, granite chinned Ali could too. The question is - can Louis go the distance? :D . Of course he can.

Dempsey 1919
01-17-2006, 09:59 PM
Louis dropped his left after throwing a straight right, and a jab. Yes even AFTER the Schemlling annihalation, Louis still did it. Look at Ali against Foreman, landing straight right leads. Ali would nail Louis with them all night, and then stay away. Louis was basically a very slow moving fighter, and could not catch and corner Ali like Frazier and Norton did. That's what their pressure did, something Louis lacked.

And I think Louis' normal advantage in handspeed - that he usually had - would not be the case here. Ali would beat Louis to the punch, and get out - not allowing Louis to land his combinations.

And what is this rubbish about Norton "exposing" Ali?
a) Ali was past his prime. Much like Charles exposed Louis yes? Primes comes at different times - Ali was 31, Louis was 36 - but power is the last thing to go, reflexes and speed are the first.

b) Ali had a broken jaw in the first fight, and couldn't fight his normal fight.

c) When Ali performed like he did in his prime - ala dancing and moving - he totally outclassed Norton.

d) Ali arguably lost the third fight - maybe - but he was shot, and everyone knows it.

"Ali don't got **** on Louis" - Speed, reflexes, chin, size.
Both were laser accurate, Louis had better power. Both had excellent combinations.

"and he had the quick, short, precise shots that would knock ANYBODY out..." ---- So why does he have 14 decisions on his record? If guys like Bob Pastor can go the distance, then I think the fleet-footed, evasive master, granite chinned Ali could too. The question is - can Louis go the distance? :D . Of course he can.

nice post.

Dempsey 1919
01-17-2006, 10:05 PM
Are you guys kidding me...?

Who here actually thinks Ali can beat Louis...
NEVER...

I don't care what Ali it is...

1959, 1964, 1969, 1975, 2005, etc.

Ali had LOTS of flaws, but made up for it with natural talents like his reflex's, footwork, and handspeed...

Joe Louis was the greatest puncher to ever put on a pair of gloves. His punches were so accurate, he had a beautiful jab, beautiful left hook and a bombing straight right...and devastating body shots...

ooo...and he had the quick, short, precise shots that would knock ANYBODY out...

He had a killer jab...Like Kid Achilles said, Norton exposed Ali as did so many other people...

Ali don't got **** on Louis..
I don't see Ali winning this fight, I see it being one sided actually, Joe Louis would expose Ali of all his flaws...

and knock him out...I don't see this fight going past 8...

don't make me laugh. muhammad ali is not buddy baer, jack sharkey, max schmeling, or abe simon. louis never in his entire career fought somebody as half as good as ali. ali would embarass him like johnson did jeffries. ali embarrassed liston, who IMO had practically the same handspeed as louis and way more punching power, and the few punches liston did hit him with did not faze clay. ali is bigger, physically stronger, way faster, and more accurate. louis has better defense, but with ali's speed, it doesn't matter. ali stops him in 6, period.

Skydog
01-18-2006, 07:35 PM
don't make me laugh. muhammad ali is not buddy baer, jack sharkey, max schmeling, or abe simon. louis never in his entire career fought somebody as half as good as ali. ali would embarass him like johnson did jeffries. ali embarrassed liston, who IMO had practically the same handspeed as louis and way more punching power, and the few punches liston did hit him with did not faze clay. ali is bigger, physically stronger, way faster, and more accurate. louis has better defense, but with ali's speed, it doesn't matter. ali stops him in 6, period.

Liston looked like **** that fight. You know it. I know it.

Ali more accurate than Louis? Hell, the only punches Louis missed were the ones he threw when his opponents were heading to the canvas.

Liston has the same handspeed as Louis? I think you will find that proven wrong in the second Schmeling fight, the Roper fight, and the second Simon fight.

Skydog
01-18-2006, 07:36 PM
Although Louis could KO Ali, and Ali could KO Louis.

If these 2 fought, it would be a lot like Ali-Frazier. Louis wins the first, Ali wins the last 2.

Dempsey 1919
01-19-2006, 12:07 PM
Liston looked like **** that fight. You know it. I know it.

Ali more accurate than Louis? Hell, the only punches Louis missed were the ones he threw when his opponents were heading to the canvas.

Liston has the same handspeed as Louis? I think you will find that proven wrong in the second Schmeling fight, the Roper fight, and the second Simon fight.

ali is at least as accurate if not more accurate. watch ali-terrel, ali-patterson I, ali-williams, ali-chuvalo I, etc. almost all the punches he threw were right on the button.

watch both liston-patterson fights, especially the second, where even patterson's bobbing and weaving could'nt make liston miss with his precision power punches. it takes alot of speed to hit patterson that many times, and less speed to hit simon, who just stands right there flatfooted ready for you to hit him.

Yaman
01-19-2006, 01:43 PM
No way Ali would beat Louis. I even heard some idiots claim He would KO Louis? hahahahaha

Dempsey 1919
01-19-2006, 03:14 PM
No way Ali would beat Louis. I even heard some idiots claim He would KO Louis? hahahahaha

ok then, explain to me how louis would beat ali.

Yaman
01-19-2006, 04:00 PM
ok then, explain to me how louis would beat ali.


Same as Frazier did really. Only Louis was much better in every way. He was a better combo puncher, perhaps power punchers, he was pretty fast on his feet. He would put a lot of pressure on Ali, attacking him throughout the whole fight. He would win a UD against Ali, but he wouldn't KO him. He might've knocked him down a few times but i dont think any fighter could ever KO Ali.

So Louis UD 15 or 12.

Dempsey 1919
01-19-2006, 04:11 PM
Same as Frazier did really. Only Louis was much better in every way. He was a better combo puncher, perhaps power punchers, he was pretty fast on his feet. He would put a lot of pressure on Ali, attacking him throughout the whole fight. He would win a UD against Ali, but he wouldn't KO him. He might've knocked him down a few times but i dont think any fighter could ever KO Ali.

So Louis UD 15 or 12.

number one the ali that fought frazier was slower than prime ali. number two, louis was not fast on his feet. if ali sensed he was being cornered, he would move out of harms way in a flash. i think frazier is much faster on his feet, stronger, and hits harder than louis. like i said before, louis had trouble with fighters who used the same style ali used. watch how billy conn outclassed louis twice before being knocked out. watch how jersey joe walcott made louis look stupid the first fight, but was robbed, and how he was beating louis in the second fight up until walcott's demise in the 11th. yes louis still knocked them out, but they were all small guys, and none of them were as strong, big, or fast as ali. no way louis could FLOOR muhammad, much less knock him out. ali's head would move out of the way of louis' power punches. he doesn't stand still like abe simon or max baer and let louis hit him. his fighting style is built on defense. louis would get frustrated and ko'd or stopped, probably stopped in 6 or 7. this is a mismatch at it's finest.

machotime
01-19-2006, 04:23 PM
number one the ali that fought frazier was slower than prime ali. number two, louis was not fast on his feet. if ali sensed he was being cornered, he would move out of harms way in a flash. i think frazier is much faster on his feet, stronger, and hits harder than louis. like i said before, louis had trouble with fighters who used the same style ali used. watch how billy conn outclassed louis twice before being knocked out. watch how jersey joe walcott made louis look stupid the first fight, but was robbed, and how he was beating louis in the second fight up until walcott's demise in the 11th. yes louis still knocked them out, but they were all small guys, and none of them were as strong, big, or fast as ali. no way louis could FLOOR muhammad, much less knock him out. ali's head would move out of the way of louis' power punches. he doesn't stand still like abe simon or max baer and let louis hit him. his fighting style is built on defense. louis would get frustrated and ko'd or stopped, probably stopped in 6 or 7. this is a mismatch at it's finest.
I would have to agree somewhat. I like louis' style better, but louis would miss ALi alot. Louis would be countered all night. I could see louis landing some bombs but I see Ali taking a decision or late round stoppage maybe 13 or 14.

Dempsey 1919
01-19-2006, 04:29 PM
Oh my god shut up Butterfly.

"Foreman would literally kill the bums Louis fought in the first round".

FACT - Louis' resume is better than Foreman's.

your twisting my words. i said everybody louis knocked out in the first round, foreman would kill, i didn't say foreman would kill in the first round everybody louis ko'd.

Yaman
01-19-2006, 04:34 PM
number one the ali that fought frazier was slower than prime ali
Don't make excuses. This Ali was actually better than a few years back IMO. Young Clay could never ever win against Foreman.

number two, louis was not fast on his feet. if ali sensed he was being cornered, he would move out of harms way in a flash.

He was definitely fast on his feet, if not, how could he always land his punches? Look at Tyson, he landed his punches against bigger guys because he had fast feet. You should watch more fights of Louis.

i think frazier is much faster on his feet, stronger, and hits harder than louis. like i said before, louis had trouble with fighters who used the same style ali used. watch how billy conn outclassed louis twice before being knocked out. watch how jersey joe walcott made louis look stupid the first fight, but was robbed, and how he was beating louis in the second fight up until walcott's demise in the 11th. yes louis still knocked them out,

You THINK? Like i said before he was better than Frazier in every way. Only thing Frazier could come close with with power was his left hook, but Louis had KO power in both hands.
And Walcott, Louis dominated the fight. I say watch it again.

but they were all small guys, and none of them were as strong, big, or fast as ali

Bigger or not, styles make fights. Louis showed he could still crush a boxer much faster than him. It really doesn't matter if a fighter would dominate Louis in the first couple of rounds because his punches were gonna get you sooner or later.

no way louis could FLOOR muhammad, much less knock him out. ali's head would move out of the way of louis' power punches. he doesn't stand still like abe simon or max baer and let louis hit him. his fighting style is built on defense.

Ali has been knocked down wich means he's not GOD. Every fighter can get caught with a big punch. Joe's punches were accurate, powerfull and fast. I mean really fast, that's what you need to hit Ali. I never said he WOULD knock Ali down because you know, thats a rare occation, but i felt that was what you were saying.

louis would get frustrated and ko'd or stopped, probably stopped in 6 or 7. this is a mismatch at it's finest.

Nope. That would never happen. Ali is not a KO puncher and Louis has a granite chin. Ali wasn't known for knocking guys out, so what makes you think he would KO Joe Louis.

Dempsey 1919
01-19-2006, 05:01 PM
Don't make excuses. This Ali was actually better than a few years back IMO. Young Clay could never ever win against Foreman.



He was definitely fast on his feet, if not, how could he always land his punches? Look at Tyson, he landed his punches against bigger guys because he had fast feet. You should watch more fights of Louis.



You THINK? Like i said before he was better than Frazier in every way. Only thing Frazier could come close with with power was his left hook, but Louis had KO power in both hands.
And Walcott, Louis dominated the fight. I say watch it again.



Bigger or not, styles make fights. Louis showed he could still crush a boxer much faster than him. It really doesn't matter if a fighter would dominate Louis in the first couple of rounds because his punches were gonna get you sooner or later.



Ali has been knocked down wich means he's not GOD. Every fighter can get caught with a big punch. Joe's punches were accurate, powerfull and fast. I mean really fast, that's what you need to hit Ali. I never said he WOULD knock Ali down because you know, thats a rare occation, but i felt that was what you were saying.



Nope. That would never happen. Ali is not a KO puncher and Louis has a granite chin. Ali wasn't known for knocking guys out, so what makes you think he would KO Joe Louis.

how in the world was ali better in '71 when he was slow as hell? be quiet i know much more about muhammad ali than you do.

louis was slow-moving. yeah, he looked fast against abe simon and buddy baer, cause they were slow-moving bums themselves.

yeah, right walcott had louis dazed and confused the first time and was robbed, you watch the fight again.

of course louis could crush a boxer faster than him, if they weighed 170 like billy conn, and he weighed like 200. again, the only reason why louis beat those guys is because they were small, but ali is big, and has more speed. ali is close to 213 in his prime and louis is about 200. no wy he crushes ali who is bigger, stronger, and faster than louis. louis did his damage on the inside. ia ali an in-fighter? no, he's always on the backfoot, and he never fights inside, so how would louis hurt him?

louis' punches are not fast enough to hit prime ali enough to hurt him. louis has a weak chin and ali has underrated power. ali in his prime almost always ended the fight before the 15th round ended, so he definetely could stop louis.

you're fighting a losing battle here. ali was never floored in his prime, and we are talking about primes, not early or late in their careers. ali has every tool to beat louis, in fact prime ali has enough tools to beat everybody, period. am i'm not saying this cause i'm a crazy ali fan, because i backed up why i think ali could beat any version of every fighter when he was in his prime. it's just that some of you don't listen to reason. just cause you don't like ali cause he talked too much or whatever, doesn't mean he wasn't good, you people need to stop judging by your heart and go by the facts. ali has proved to the world he's the greatest, most people call him the greatest, he's beat the greatest competition, so he is the greatest. get that through your heads.

Yaman
01-19-2006, 05:32 PM
You know, i don't know if im gonna post more and more because nothing i say will convince your mind. You're blinded by love.

how in the world was ali better in '71 when he was slow as hell? be quiet i know much more about muhammad ali than you do.

louis was slow-moving. yeah, he looked fast against abe simon and buddy baer, cause they were slow-moving bums themselves.

yeah, right walcott had louis dazed and confused the first time and was robbed, you watch the fight again.


How come its allright for you guys to say Ali's losses were because he wasn't in his prime is ok even though a lot of fighters have had the same thing. Tyson annyone? i remember you saying he had a short prime. If that's true then Ali wasn't ''great'' for a long time either.

Walcott did NOT beat Louis. He had his moments in the fight but that doesn't mean he won. Louis was throwing combo's the whole fight and clearly got the best of him. I might wanna point out that Norton might have been robbed twice by Ali huh.

of course louis could crush a boxer faster than him, if they weighed 170 like billy conn, and he weighed like 200. again, the only reason why louis beat those guys is because they were small

Stanley Poreda 208
Biff Bennett 200
Gene Stanton 215
Primo Carnera 260½ (This guy was huge and still got KO'd)
King Levinsky 197¾
Max Baer 210
Paolino Uzcudun 207
Charley Retzlaff 198½
Jack Sharkey 197¼
Jorge Brescia 205½
Eddie Simms 195
Steve Ketchel 216
Natie Brown 199½
Jim Braddock 197
Tommy Farr 204¼
Harry Thomas 196
Jack Roper 204¾
Tony Galento 233¾ (Big guy crushed in 4 rounds)
Arturo Godoy 202
Abe Simon 254½
Tony Musto 199½
Buddy Baer 237½ (250 in the rematch)
Lou Nova 202½
Abe Simon 255¼

Tired of getting owned? Still think Joe crushed little guys? You know more about Ali than me but i sure as hell know more about than Louis than you.

And your other statements, check my earlier post. I explained why Joe would hurt Ali.

you're fighting a losing battle here. ali was never floored in his prime, and we are talking about primes, not early or late in their careers. ali has every tool to beat louis, in fact prime ali has enough tools to beat everybody, period. am i'm not saying this cause i'm a crazy ali fan, because i backed up why i think ali could beat any version of every fighter when he was in his prime. it's just that some of you don't listen to reason. just cause you don't like ali cause he talked too much or whatever, doesn't mean he wasn't good, you people need to stop judging by your heart and go by the facts. ali has proved to the world he's the greatest, most people call him the greatest, he's beat the greatest competition, so he is the greatest. get that through your heads.

Take it easy buddy. Im not insulting Ali, i ust don't see him beating Louis. I love Ali but too so don't think im putting him down for whatever reason. We're just discussing.

Brassangel
01-19-2006, 06:25 PM
SOME BUTTERFLY CLASSICS...

"He proved to the world that he's the greatest..."

This is because he told everybody this part after beating a 35+ Sonny Liston.

"Many people call him the greatest..."

That's because he told everybody to call him this.

"He beat the greatest competition..."

He beat a handful of big names, but the remainder of his resume is just as shabby as any other champion in question.

"I know more about Muhammad Ali than you do..."

This doesn't make you the resident authority on the man; especially since there are people here who have been studying boxing since you were born.

I'm not ragging on you butterfly, but these were obviously comments made from your heart instead of from facts, so stop telling everybody else to do the opposite. It's clear that there are many flaws on both sides of this platter.

My prediction in short: Louis wins first fight. It's the only chance he's got. Ali wins fights two and three easily. He probably barely loses the first, and only because of some late round shenanigans. Or possibly because Louis gets incredible gift decisions (vs. Walcott). Ali's victories are probably clear, cut, and dry. Louis had a great mind for boxing, but even he couldn't disrupt the Master of Disruption.

Dempsey 1919
01-19-2006, 08:19 PM
You know, i don't know if im gonna post more and more because nothing i say will convince your mind. You're blinded by love.



How come its allright for you guys to say Ali's losses were because he wasn't in his prime is ok even though a lot of fighters have had the same thing. Tyson annyone? i remember you saying he had a short prime. If that's true then Ali wasn't ''great'' for a long time either.

Walcott did NOT beat Louis. He had his moments in the fight but that doesn't mean he won. Louis was throwing combo's the whole fight and clearly got the best of him. I might wanna point out that Norton might have been robbed twice by Ali huh.



Stanley Poreda 208
Biff Bennett 200
Gene Stanton 215
Primo Carnera 260½ (This guy was huge and still got KO'd)
King Levinsky 197¾
Max Baer 210
Paolino Uzcudun 207
Charley Retzlaff 198½
Jack Sharkey 197¼
Jorge Brescia 205½
Eddie Simms 195
Steve Ketchel 216
Natie Brown 199½
Jim Braddock 197
Tommy Farr 204¼
Harry Thomas 196
Jack Roper 204¾
Tony Galento 233¾ (Big guy crushed in 4 rounds)
Arturo Godoy 202
Abe Simon 254½
Tony Musto 199½
Buddy Baer 237½ (250 in the rematch)
Lou Nova 202½
Abe Simon 255¼

Tired of getting owned? Still think Joe crushed little guys? You know more about Ali than me but i sure as hell know more about than Louis than you.

And your other statements, check my earlier post. I explained why Joe would hurt Ali.



Take it easy buddy. Im not insulting Ali, i ust don't see him beating Louis. I love Ali but too so don't think im putting him down for whatever reason. We're just discussing.

ali's losses weren't in his prime cause they weren't, it's common sense. i don't know how not fighting for nearly 4 years, and then having 2 fights, one of them three rounds, and then after losing when clearly he wasn't ready and he was really slower than usual means you are in your prime. "he's 29, so he's in his prime." yeah, if he was allowed to fight up until that time he would have been in his prime. but he wasn't so that was not his prime, obviously. tyson was in his prime when he lost to douglass, he was only 23. he didn't train, does that mean he wasn't prime? i mean you can say after he came out of jail he wasn't prime, cause he was forced not to fight but in the douglass fight he was outclassed.

did i say that louis couldn't beat big guys idiot? no, i didn't. i said that louis couldn't beat a fast-moving big guy, because he barely beat the fast-moving smaller ones. is abe simon fast-moving? nope, he sure isn't. is buddy baer, primo carnera, or tony galento fast-moving? nooooo! so, no you didn't own me, you basically owned yourself on that one.

Dempsey 1919
01-19-2006, 08:30 PM
SOME BUTTERFLY CLASSICS...

"He proved to the world that he's the greatest..."

This is because he told everybody this part after beating a 35+ Sonny Liston.

"Many people call him the greatest..."

That's because he told everybody to call him this.

"He beat the greatest competition..."

He beat a handful of big names, but the remainder of his resume is just as shabby as any other champion in question.

"I know more about Muhammad Ali than you do..."

This doesn't make you the resident authority on the man; especially since there are people here who have been studying boxing since you were born.

I'm not ragging on you butterfly, but these were obviously comments made from your heart instead of from facts, so stop telling everybody else to do the opposite. It's clear that there are many flaws on both sides of this platter.

My prediction in short: Louis wins first fight. It's the only chance he's got. Ali wins fights two and three easily. He probably barely loses the first, and only because of some late round shenanigans. Or possibly because Louis gets incredible gift decisions (vs. Walcott). Ali's victories are probably clear, cut, and dry. Louis had a great mind for boxing, but even he couldn't disrupt the Master of Disruption.

he proved he was the greatest, cause he was on the winning side of two of the biggest upsets in sports history. has any other great done that? in fact in most upsets, the winner goes on to be nothing. what have we heard of buster douglass lately? or leon spinks, or schmeling or braddock? ali went on to become great cause he was the best kept secret in boxing up until 1964, and managed to keep his other qualities in hiding up until 1974. when you can just prove the world wrong like that so effortlessly, you must be something special. ali beat the best comp. bar none. louis never really beat a top ten hw, maybe a couple of top 20s, but that's it. wow, ya'll are not getting it. ali is superior to louis in every way except punching power, but power doesn't matter when you can float like a butterfly and sting like a bee, now does it?

he told everyone to call him the greatest? and so thats the only reason why they did? if ali was as quiet as joe louis, many people would still recognize him as the greatest, cause of his boxing skills.

hellfire508
01-19-2006, 08:42 PM
I think Ali proved he was the greatest with his career defining underdog victories over Sonny Liston and George Foreman, plus his 2 out of 3 outcome of the trilogy with Joe Frazier. That's 5-2 with 3 top 10 heavyweights. THEN - he went 4-1 with top 20 heavyweights, Patterson and Norton. Plus he beat other extremely good fighters like - Ron Lyle, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Ernie Terrell, Henry Cooper, George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, Earnie Shavers....plus more.

His competition is second to none at heavyweight. Plus, he was the three time heavyweight champion. 19 successful title defenses. And he interweaved politics into the sport like nobody else - and showed his qualities and worthiness of 'greatness' outside the ring too, with his stance on Vietnam. Not the greatest fighter of all time - though he is up there - but the greatest heavyweight, I think there is little doubt.

Dempsey 1919
01-19-2006, 08:47 PM
I think Ali proved he was the greatest with his career defining underdog victories over Sonny Liston and George Foreman, plus his 2 out of 3 outcome of the trilogy with Joe Frazier. That's 5-2 with 3 top 10 heavyweights. THEN - he went 4-1 with top 20 heavyweights, Patterson and Norton. Plus he beat other extremely good fighters like - Ron Lyle, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Ernie Terrell, Henry Cooper, George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, Earnie Shavers....plus more.

His competition is second to none at heavyweight. Plus, he was the three time heavyweight champion. 19 successful title defenses. And he interweaved politics into the sport like nobody else - and showed his qualities and worthiness of 'greatness' outside the ring too, with his stance on Vietnam. Not the greatest fighter of all time - though he is up there - but the greatest heavyweight, I think there is little doubt.

nice post!

Skydog
01-19-2006, 10:19 PM
ali is at least as accurate if not more accurate. watch ali-terrel, ali-patterson I, ali-williams, ali-chuvalo I, etc. almost all the punches he threw were right on the button.

watch both liston-patterson fights, especially the second, where even patterson's bobbing and weaving could'nt make liston miss with his precision power punches. it takes alot of speed to hit patterson that many times, and less speed to hit simon, who just stands right there flatfooted ready for you to hit him.

Wow, I'm glad you can find 4 fights like that. Guess what? You can find 68 fights where Louis did that.

Louis beat the **** out of Godoy, and Godoy's head never stopped moving, and he was always crouching. Conn, Mann, and Ettore were all dancers and movers, yet Louis KO'ed all 3 of them.

hellfire508
01-20-2006, 01:26 AM
Both were extremely accurate punchers. I actually think Ali against Frazier is very impressive, considering how great Frazier's bobbing and weaving was. Ali hits flush alot. Louis was just as accurate with harder punches, thus why he is regarded as the greater effective puncher.

Yaman
01-20-2006, 06:22 AM
ali's losses weren't in his prime cause they weren't, it's common sense. i don't know how not fighting for nearly 4 years, and then having 2 fights, one of them three rounds, and then after losing when clearly he wasn't ready and he was really slower than usual means you are in your prime. "he's 29, so he's in his prime." yeah, if he was allowed to fight up until that time he would have been in his prime. but he wasn't so that was not his prime, obviously. tyson was in his prime when he lost to douglass, he was only 23. he didn't train, does that mean he wasn't prime? i mean you can say after he came out of jail he wasn't prime, cause he was forced not to fight but in the douglass fight he was outclassed.

did i say that louis couldn't beat big guys idiot? no, i didn't. i said that louis couldn't beat a fast-moving big guy, because he barely beat the fast-moving smaller ones. is abe simon fast-moving? nope, he sure isn't. is buddy baer, primo carnera, or tony galento fast-moving? nooooo! so, no you didn't own me, you basically owned yourself on that one.

butterfly is getting emotional lol. Im gonna own you again if you dont mind.

You just said Ali wasn't in his prime because he didn't fight for a few years. That's called not training. Tyson didn't train for the Douglass fight as he rather had a party in Japan the day before lol. 3 years not training or months not training, its still not prime. Mike Tyson was never the same fighter after the Bruno fight unlike Ali beating Frazier, Foreman, (NOT Norton), and some other great fighters after prison, plus he TRAINED!! That's not prime? Lewis was a diffirent fighter in his younger days but he was a much better fighter in the end of his career. Is he not in his prime then?

You have said Louis can't beat bigger guys, but he could beat up little white guys? Do i remember correctly butterfly? hehe.
It doesn't matter he never faced a bigger dancing fighter like Ali because the little guys he fought were quicker than him and he still got them. He destroyed most of them so how could he not catch Ali? :)

Joe Louis UD15 after giving Ali a verocious beating throughout the whole fight PERIOD.

Yaman
01-20-2006, 06:24 AM
I think Ali proved he was the greatest with his career defining underdog victories over Sonny Liston and George Foreman, plus his 2 out of 3 outcome of the trilogy with Joe Frazier. That's 5-2 with 3 top 10 heavyweights. THEN - he went 4-1 with top 20 heavyweights, Patterson and Norton. Plus he beat other extremely good fighters like - Ron Lyle, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Ernie Terrell, Henry Cooper, George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, Earnie Shavers....plus more.

His competition is second to none at heavyweight. Plus, he was the three time heavyweight champion. 19 successful title defenses. And he interweaved politics into the sport like nobody else - and showed his qualities and worthiness of 'greatness' outside the ring too, with his stance on Vietnam. Not the greatest fighter of all time - though he is up there - but the greatest heavyweight, I think there is little doubt.

Ali is overrated.

hellfire508
01-20-2006, 07:27 AM
Wrong.

In your opinion, Ali is overrated. I don't think he is personally. And why don't you post your reasons of WHY Louis would beat up on Ali? Styles wise. Not just - "Louis was a great combination puncher, and hit hard, so he would beat the **** outta Ali".

LondonRingRules
01-20-2006, 08:26 AM
=======His competition is second to none at heavyweight. Plus, he was the three time heavyweight champion. 19 successful title defenses. And he interweaved politics into the sport like nobody else - and showed his qualities and worthiness of 'greatness' outside the ring too, with his stance on Vietnam. =============================

** Well, Sam Langford would have to disagree on the competition factor.

Perhaps you agreed with Ali's Vietnam stance, however his political reasoning was as child like as his poetry was. No great intellect there, just a willingness to stand up for his shaky NOI religious beliefs. Admirable on the courage meter, yet lacking on the astuteness meter.

Yaman
01-20-2006, 08:34 AM
Ali did great things OUSIDE of boxing too. Even if he saved the world, that doesn't give you the right to just call him the greatest.


And ALI HIMSELF SAID LOUIS WAS THE GREATEST. What do you have to say against that? Discussion ends right here.

Brockton Lip
01-20-2006, 01:20 PM
I see Ali winning at least 2 out 3 by decision.

hellfire508
01-20-2006, 09:08 PM
Ali did great things OUSIDE of boxing too. Even if he saved the world, that doesn't give you the right to just call him the greatest.


And ALI HIMSELF SAID LOUIS WAS THE GREATEST. What do you have to say against that? Discussion ends right here.

a) Ali never said it - if he did, it's out of respect.

b) Even if he did, how does that mean Louis would win a matchup? Louis KO 1 Tyson. Ali Ko 1 Tyson.

hellfire508
01-20-2006, 09:20 PM
=======His competition is second to none at heavyweight. Plus, he was the three time heavyweight champion. 19 successful title defenses. And he interweaved politics into the sport like nobody else - and showed his qualities and worthiness of 'greatness' outside the ring too, with his stance on Vietnam. =============================

** Well, Sam Langford would have to disagree on the competition factor.

Perhaps you agreed with Ali's Vietnam stance, however his political reasoning was as child like as his poetry was. No great intellect there, just a willingness to stand up for his shaky NOI religious beliefs. Admirable on the courage meter, yet lacking on the astuteness meter.

Sam Langford? Are you serious? His competition was great overall - at heavyweight, nowhere near Ali's. What top 20 - let alone top 10 heavyweights did he beat? His best wins there are over Joe Jeannette, Sam Mcvea and Harry Wills. Very good fighters - but not top 20 material.

As for his "childlike" political reasoning - it may have sounded that way, but the principle of what he was arguing is true, and plausible as a reason not to be drafted.

Firstly - his religious beliefs did not allow him to go and fight the war. For someone like Ali, who was so passionate about his God and religion - disobeying such a law would be a major disrespect, and self-shaming act. (He did break some parts of Islamic code - i.e. women, though).

Secondly - How can you argue with what he said? "No Vietcong ever called me Ni**er". There is no poetic nature about the way he said it - but how can you disagree with what he is saying?

This isn't word for word, but this is from the movie "Ali" - which is close to what he actually said. I've only seen the real footage once, so I can't remember it word for word.

"I ain't draft dodging. I ain't burning no flag. I ain't running to Canada. I'm staying right here. You want to send me to jail? Fine, you go right ahead. I've been in jail for 400 years. I could be there for 4 or 5 more, but I ain't going no 10,000 miles to help murder and kill other poor people. If I want to die, I'll die right here, right now, fightin' you, if I want to die. You my enemy, not no Chinese, no Vietcong, no Japanese. You my opposer when I want freedom. You my opposer when I want justice. You my opposer when I want equality. Want me to go somewhere and fight for you? You won't even stand up for me right here in America, for my rights and my religious beliefs. You won't even stand up for my right here at home."

It reminds me of "Operation Human Shield" from the South Park Movie - blacks a treated like ****, and are sent to the frontline to fight for the opressive government.

Yaman
01-20-2006, 09:51 PM
a) Ali never said it - if he did, it's out of respect.

b) Even if he did, how does that mean Louis would win a matchup? Louis KO 1 Tyson. Ali Ko 1 Tyson.


What the hell are you talking about you dickhead? Its about Ali and Louis. Get out of this thread then.

hellfire508
01-21-2006, 04:34 AM
What the hell are you talking about you dickhead? Its about Ali and Louis. Get out of this thread then.

Ohhh did I hit a soft spot?

LondonRingRules
01-21-2006, 07:07 AM
============Sam Langford? Are you serious? His competition was great overall - at heavyweight, nowhere near Ali's. What top 20 - let alone top 10 heavyweights did he beat? His best wins there are over Joe Jeannette, Sam Mcvea and Harry Wills. Very good fighters - but not top 20 material.

As for his "childlike" political reasoning - it may have sounded that way, but the principle of what he was arguing is true, and plausible as a reason not to be drafted.

Firstly - his religious beliefs did not allow him to go and fight the war. For someone like Ali, who was so passionate about his God and religion - disobeying such a law would be a major disrespect, and self-shaming act. (He did break some parts of Islamic code - i.e. women, though). =====================================

** Let's just say lastly here.

Sam's peers thought he was the best heavy of his era. When you look at the record, and see how many times Wills, Jeannette, and McVea fought each other, and more importantly, how many times Sam fought them, plus disposed of other top contenders that Johnson didn't want any part of, it's clear Sam had stiffer comp than Ali. Ali would have to face Frazier 5X, Norton 8x and Foreman 13x and still wouldn't match what Sam was doing.

Now, as far as Ali's logic, he was hiding behind his religion, claiming to be an NOI holy cleric. The NOI is a complete sham, a joke except back then it was more like a murderous cult. It's founder, Elijah Muhammed was a fraud and conman, and it's no accident that his sons, and his most famous devotees, Malcolm and Ali, all left to join a mainstream Sunni sect of Islam, leaving only Louis Farakahn to shore up the rear with his hate on Jews and whites.

Now, Ali did bring up some valid points about being oppressed, however he was working AGAINST MLK, advocating an armed struggle and a completely seperate nation for blacks, something that was tried and failed by former American slaves in Liberia.

Ali was courageous in putting his life and career on the line for what he believed, and operated within the full parameters of the law and is to be admired for that part of him. He was no holy man, no saint, no intellect however.

I would take care in quoting from the movie Ali. The project was a bigger joke than conman Elijah. BTW, reportedly Ali never made that VietCong ****** remark. I think he said, "I ain't got nothin' against no VietCong," and it got twisted in some newscopy somewhere with the ****** version and grew legs. Newsmen back then had an adversion to Ali and what he stood for and treated him pretty harshly in the press.

hellfire508
01-21-2006, 08:03 AM
I agree about the Nation of Islam, yet it doesn't sway me from believing that Ali was totally justified in taking his stance.

Regarding Langford - I don't care how many times Langford fought Wills, McVea and Jeanette, it doesn't compare. As I conceded in the other thread, Langford's overall resume is superior to Ali's, but at heavy...how can it?

Langford went 7-3-4 with Jeannette. He went 4-2-6, plus a few no contests or decisions or something with Mcvea. And then went 2-13-1, with Harry Wills. I acknowledge Langford was something like 30 years old when he first met Wills, but that doesn't change the fact that he lost 13 times to him. So with those three - he went 13-18-11. All three of them - don't cut the top 20, and infact - maybe not even the top 25 heavyweights of all time. Conversley, Ali went 2-1 with Frazier - a top 10 heavyweight, who some rank as high as 5th. He went 2-0 with Liston, a top 10 heavyweight - and a seemingly indestructable monster. And beat Foreman (who some rank as high as 3rd) by knockout the sole time they fought, who was 40-0 after demolishing Frazier and Norton, and also considered invincible.

Langford was KO'd on several occasions throughout his career. Whereas Ali was never stopped, excluding the TKO against Holmes, which was stopped between rounds. Add to Ali's list of victims - Floyd Patterson, Ken Norton, George Chuvalo, Ernie Terrell, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Oscar Bonavena, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Ellis, Jerry Quarry, Henry Cooper, Joe Bugner, Bob Foster, Buster Mathis, Doug Jones... its a great resume. Jerry Quarry is considered by many to be the greatest heavyweight to never win the title. Patterson and Norton are top 20 heavyweights according to most.

Yaman
01-21-2006, 09:27 AM
Ohhh did I hit a soft spot?

Nah, i can also just say stupid things like
Joe Louis KO1 hellfire508's mama ;)

LondonRingRules
01-21-2006, 10:09 AM
==============I agree about the Nation of Islam, yet it doesn't sway me from believing that Ali was totally justified in taking his stance.

Regarding Langford - I don't care how many times Langford fought Wills, McVea and Jeanette, it doesn't compare. As I conceded in the other thread, Langford's overall resume is superior to Ali's, but at heavy...how can it?=========================

** Easy

First let's get Wills out of the way. Sam was 94-9-19 when he first met the giant Wills. That's already a better record than Johnson finished with at age 54 and Sam was just 31 and half blind by then. Wills won the first match, which Sam was notorious for losing so he could set up the rematch, which Sam KOs Wills in. Sam did end up on the short end against Wills, but he was long past his best for almost all of those bouts, fighting completely blind by the end of his career.

What Sam did in the heavy division was go on a tear the likes of which has never been seen. From the time of his 2nd heavy bout against Johnson, where Sam only weighed 156 until Johnson lost his title 9 yrs later, Sam won almost as many bouts as Johnson finished his career with and only had a few losses. He was fighting a who's who of HOF heavies and other HOF fighters and usually won by KO. He KOed Jeannette, Obrien, and Ross, all of whom went the distance against Johnson, the last two being Johnson title defenses.

For around 9 yrs, Sam faced the biggest, best, and strongest that boxing had to offer, fighting about once a month. No way in hell could Ali ever keep up a pace like that. In that period alone Sam won about 30 more fights than did Ali in his entire career.

Sure, Ali has a better "championship" career, but seeing how Sam was frozen out of any title shots, just how much advantage does Ali really have. I calculated Sam had about 60 bouts against HOF fighters alone. Ali only has 61 fights in his entire career and about a dozen HOF bouts.

Don't feel bad. Most any heavy looks weak compared to Sam when you get down to the nitty gritty. Sam doesn't get enough credit because he's such a small guy and doesn't match up well against many heavy champs, but he was the creme de la cream in his day, hands down.

Dempsey 1919
01-21-2006, 12:07 PM
butterfly is getting emotional lol. Im gonna own you again if you dont mind.

You just said Ali wasn't in his prime because he didn't fight for a few years. That's called not training. Tyson didn't train for the Douglass fight as he rather had a party in Japan the day before lol. 3 years not training or months not training, its still not prime. Mike Tyson was never the same fighter after the Bruno fight unlike Ali beating Frazier, Foreman, (NOT Norton), and some other great fighters after prison, plus he TRAINED!! That's not prime? Lewis was a diffirent fighter in his younger days but he was a much better fighter in the end of his career. Is he not in his prime then?

You have said Louis can't beat bigger guys, but he could beat up little white guys? Do i remember correctly butterfly? hehe.
It doesn't matter he never faced a bigger dancing fighter like Ali because the little guys he fought were quicker than him and he still got them. He destroyed most of them so how could he not catch Ali? :)

Joe Louis UD15 after giving Ali a verocious beating throughout the whole fight PERIOD.

listen, when you are not in your prime, it means that you cannot get back to the way you were before. tyson was only 23, so if he trained and if kevin rooney came back at that time, he would have been the same way he was when he was 20. ali didn't fight in nearly 4 years, and he lost speed he would never get back. he could never be the same again, so he was not in his prime.

again, find a post that i said louis didn't or couldn't beat bigger guys? you can't, all i said is that louis couldn't beat big guy who moved very fast. sure he could beat little guys who were fast, and he could beat slow, big guys, but could he beat a combination of a guy who is big and fast such as ali, or even holmes and tyson? nope, he sure couldn't. get your facts straight. and you say he could catch ali? and if he did you know what would happen? ali would laugh in his face, cause he has a granite chin. the bums louis fought had terrible chins. no way ali could be hurt, cause ali would only be hit a little bit, and that wouldn't be enough for louis to ko ali. however, ali would dazzle and confuse louis throughout the fight, and stop him in the middle rounds with ease.

hellfire508
01-21-2006, 09:02 PM
Nah, i can also just say stupid things like
Joe Louis KO1 hellfire508's mama ;)

Of course he would. My mum never boxed, is a woman, and is getting on in years. On the other hand, Tyson is regarded by his nuthuggers as the greatest - and Louis would clean his dial.

hellfire508
01-21-2006, 09:13 PM
LondonRingRules - Langford had amazing longetivity, and consistantly fought the best of his era, and reguarly won. It was an amazing feat, especially considering he was fighting guys well out of his prime weight. But if you read my post on the previous page - I still don't believe it matches Ali's LEVEL of competition. Langford fought them alot more, but I feel Ali fought alot better. But - neither of us are going to change each other's minds...so it doesn't matter.

Yaman - Ali didn't go to prison. He was exiled. Also - he beat Norton convincingly in the second fight, so why deny it? And if you watched Ali in his early career - you would know his skills were not what they once were in his second career. The fact of the matter is - Ali had been exiled, and lost three and a half years of his prime. Tyson had fought seven months before his lost to Douglas, and was coming of three of the most impressive victories of his career - especially his first round KO of Michael Spinks, only about 18 months prior to Tokyo. Tyson was primed - but he just didn't take the fight seriously.

LondonRingRules
01-22-2006, 06:55 AM
=========- I still don't believe it matches Ali's LEVEL of competition.=============

** I agree that Frazier and Foreman in their primes were better than anyone in Sam's era. However, it was like Sam had a smorgasborg of HOF fighters in the ring every month, plus he had a storied heavy and overrated great JJohnson ducking Sam for the entire time he held the title. Put it all together, and honestly, Sam was on another planet. Ali could never have maintained that kind of schedule. Nobody but Sam could.

LS-Injection
01-22-2006, 07:31 AM
Whatya going on about hellfire508…?

Brassangel
01-22-2006, 04:28 PM
Ali lost three years from his prime. It's not the same as Tyson's failure to take boxing seriously. Ali trained during his off years, but it's not true training, because there were no fights. Also, he spent lots of time with family and the worthless NoI which distracted him from proper training. Nothing prepares a fighter for a fight better than a fight. In fact, Tyson was at his best when he was fighting frequently. Without frequent bouts, he lost focus, fired his (good) corner, and flushed his career down the toilet.

What separates their conditions? Ali bounced back from three years off. While his footwork slowed, he still had fast hands and the ability to feel out his opponents. Tyson failed to bounce back from a one year, downward spiral of events. Even so, he had a chance to set up a rematch or even fight Holyfield. Had Douglas stayed in top condition, and Tyson focused, that may have made for a great trilogy. Instead, Tyson makes mistakes outside of the ring and he too, has to take a few years off. Given another chance to reclaim greatness, he still failed to prepare and looked rediculous against Holyfield.

Ali bounced back successfully.
Tyson didn't.
In a style matchup, I think that both Ali and Tyson would beat Joe Louis. Ali would do it by decision, and very convincingly. Joe's only hope would be in fight number one. The element of surprise is the only way to catch him (a la Bonavena). Different angles, awkward approaches, and fast hands are the only ways to put decent pressure on Ali. I don't believe that Louis could do all of these things like Frazier, Bonavena, or even Tyson could. Ali wins by decision in fight one; he stops Louis in 9 during fight two.

DaddysBoy
01-22-2006, 04:37 PM
Ali lost three years from his prime. It's not the same as Tyson's failure to take boxing seriously. Ali trained during his off years, but it's not true training, because there were no fights. Also, he spent lots of time with family and the worthless NoI which distracted him from proper training. Nothing prepares a fighter for a fight better than a fight. In fact, Tyson was at his best when he was fighting frequently. Without frequent bouts, he lost focus, fired his (good) corner, and flushed his career down the toilet.

What separates their conditions? Ali bounced back from three years off. While his footwork slowed, he still had fast hands and the ability to feel out his opponents. Tyson failed to bounce back from a one year, downward spiral of events. Even so, he had a chance to set up a rematch or even fight Holyfield. Had Douglas stayed in top condition, and Tyson focused, that may have made for a great trilogy. Instead, Tyson makes mistakes outside of the ring and he too, has to take a few years off. Given another chance to reclaim greatness, he still failed to prepare and looked rediculous against Holyfield.

Ali bounced back successfully.
Tyson didn't.
In a style matchup, I think that both Ali and Tyson would beat Joe Louis. Ali would do it by decision, and very convincingly. Joe's only hope would be in fight number one. The element of surprise is the only way to catch him (a la Bonavena). Different angles, awkward approaches, and fast hands are the only ways to put decent pressure on Ali. I don't believe that Louis could do all of these things like Frazier, Bonavena, or even Tyson could. Ali wins by decision in fight one; he stops Louis in 9 during fight two.

Tyson would have his ass handed to him by both Louis and Ali. He was a fake punk and would be in for a severe beating. Both Louis and Ali was more skilled with better stamina and more heart.

I think Ali of the 60s decisions Louis, and that the Ali of the 70s gets tkoed.

Brassangel
01-23-2006, 12:20 AM
Tyson was a fake? Hmm. While I'm not a Tyson nuthugger who will stand here and claim he was the greatest, only a fool makes a statement like, "..he was a fake." Especially when followed up by ignorant comments that have no backing, or observational data.

Boy, the Tyson haters are more rediculous than the Tyson huggers.

Ali was smarter in the 70's than he was in the 60's. He wasn't as fluid, but let's be realistic: he still had speed. He looked as good in 1974 against George Foreman as he looked in any fight. That was pretty much the last time he looked that good, however. Ali in 1967, and 1974 beats Louis handily. Any other time, it's up for grabs.

Dempsey 1919
01-23-2006, 01:25 PM
Tyson was a fake? Hmm. While I'm not a Tyson nuthugger who will stand here and claim he was the greatest, only a fool makes a statement like, "..he was a fake." Especially when followed up by ignorant comments that have no backing, or observational data.

Boy, the Tyson haters are more rediculous than the Tyson huggers.

Ali was smarter in the 70's than he was in the 60's. He wasn't as fluid, but let's be realistic: he still had speed. He looked as good in 1974 against George Foreman as he looked in any fight. That was pretty much the last time he looked that good, however. Ali in 1967, and 1974 beats Louis handily. Any other time, it's up for grabs.

i think it's slightly possible for '41 louis to beat '74 ali, louis does have a pretty good chance. but against '67 ali, it would be no contest.

Brassangel
01-23-2006, 10:06 PM
Just because Ali hit his peak in 1967 doesn't mean that he would be unbeatable. Any fighter could have been beaten by something as silly as a style matchup. He still breathes air, so he didn't have unlimited stamina; he still moved on two legs, so he wasn't too fast for everybody; he still swung with hands, so he could still miss or be counterpunched.

He was an amazing fighter in 1967, but he didn't get a chance to prove his greatness at that time of his career because it was over in a flash. One could assume all he/she wants to, but it's still just speculation.

Dempsey 1919
01-23-2006, 11:24 PM
Just because Ali hit his peak in 1967 doesn't mean that he would be unbeatable. Any fighter could have been beaten by something as silly as a style matchup. He still breathes air, so he didn't have unlimited stamina; he still moved on two legs, so he wasn't too fast for everybody; he still swung with hands, so he could still miss or be counterpunched.

He was an amazing fighter in 1967, but he didn't get a chance to prove his greatness at that time of his career because it was over in a flash. One could assume all he/she wants to, but it's still just speculation.

nice post, but IMO clearly the speed and power that ali demonstrated at that time would enable him to beat any fighter in their respective primes.

DMikeS4321
01-25-2006, 05:16 AM
Louis probably generated as much power for his weight as any other heavyweight (possible exceptions being Marciano and Dempsey), but his biggest asset was his incredible accuracy. He seldom missed, and when he connected, he connected hard. It's hard to quantify, but there is a big difference between a George Foreman type of power and that projected by Joe Louis. Getting hit by Foreman was like getting hit by a bus; as many times as I've watched him, I've never felt that his punches LOOKED that hard; it was almost like they were in slow motion. You could SEE them coming, but you couldn't get out of the way. The proof, though, was always in the result. Louis's power was different, more kinetic than momentum. He had great handspeed and that, combined with accuracy, is what made his punches so hard. Ali generated decent power as well, but he wasn't primarily a one-punch knockout artist. The Liston KO was a fluke, if not a fraud. I've watched that punch dozens of times; sometimes I see it, sometimes I don't. Who knows...

To me, the deciding factor would be Louis's accuracy and his body attack. Ali could back-peddle, and he could always pull his head back, but you just couldn't give Louis your midsection or he would have you. The 70's Ali would lose if he tried the rope-a-dope; Louis wouldn't waste punches like Foreman did, and he wouldn't be foolish enough to punch himself out.

Another factor that I haven't seen in this thread is the "intimidation factor". I don't think Ali would psych Joe Louis like he did Foreman. Joe Louis would walk right through all the wild eyed jive Ali specialized in.

The 60's Ali didn't have the power. He would have to win the way he won almost all his fights at that time (except Liston II), through an accumulation of punches. He threw a lot and landed a lot but without crushing power. That worked well against his 60's opponents, but he couldn't wouldn't have the time to work that strategy with a puncher as accurate as Joe Louis. Louis would hurt Ali before Ali hurt him.

That said, I'm a big fan of Ali. He was one of the best ever, but the 60's and 70's were a golden age for boxing. I think most boxing fans who lived through that time are a little subjective about it. Same can be said about the 20's, 30's and 40's.

While it's true that post '50's fighters are bigger and better trained (from a scientific perspective), there is a toughness to earlier fighters. Previous posts have mentioned the lighter gloves of the old days; that cuts (nice pun!!) both ways; a fighter got HIT with those light gloves as well as hitting others with them. I think it's a wash.

All things considered, I think Louis wins 3 out of 4 in this matchup.

Dempsey 1919
01-25-2006, 12:40 PM
Louis probably generated as much power for his weight as any other heavyweight (possible exceptions being Marciano and Dempsey), but his biggest asset was his incredible accuracy. He seldom missed, and when he connected, he connected hard. It's hard to quantify, but there is a big difference between a George Foreman type of power and that projected by Joe Louis. Getting hit by Foreman was like getting hit by a bus; as many times as I've watched him, I've never felt that his punches LOOKED that hard; it was almost like they were in slow motion. You could SEE them coming, but you couldn't get out of the way. The proof, though, was always in the result. Louis's power was different, more kinetic than momentum. He had great handspeed and that, combined with accuracy, is what made his punches so hard. Ali generated decent power as well, but he wasn't primarily a one-punch knockout artist. The Liston KO was a fluke, if not a fraud. I've watched that punch dozens of times; sometimes I see it, sometimes I don't. Who knows...

To me, the deciding factor would be Louis's accuracy and his body attack. Ali could back-peddle, and he could always pull his head back, but you just couldn't give Louis your midsection or he would have you. The 70's Ali would lose if he tried the rope-a-dope; Louis wouldn't waste punches like Foreman did, and he wouldn't be foolish enough to punch himself out.

Another factor that I haven't seen in this thread is the "intimidation factor". I don't think Ali would psych Joe Louis like he did Foreman. Joe Louis would walk right through all the wild eyed jive Ali specialized in.

The 60's Ali didn't have the power. He would have to win the way he won almost all his fights at that time (except Liston II), through an accumulation of punches. He threw a lot and landed a lot but without crushing power. That worked well against his 60's opponents, but he couldn't wouldn't have the time to work that strategy with a puncher as accurate as Joe Louis. Louis would hurt Ali before Ali hurt him.

That said, I'm a big fan of Ali. He was one of the best ever, but the 60's and 70's were a golden age for boxing. I think most boxing fans who lived through that time are a little subjective about it. Same can be said about the 20's, 30's and 40's.

While it's true that post '50's fighters are bigger and better trained (from a scientific perspective), there is a toughness to earlier fighters. Previous posts have mentioned the lighter gloves of the old days; that cuts (nice pun!!) both ways; a fighter got HIT with those light gloves as well as hitting others with them. I think it's a wash.

All things considered, I think Louis wins 3 out of 4 in this matchup.

you're forgetting one thing. ali had an iron chin. louis couldn't hurt ali as much as louis' other opponents. also i don't believe some one could gain power from a 3lb. weight gain. ali had basically as much power in the 60s as in the 70s. it's just that ali wasn't as fast as efore so he sat down on his punches, which made them more powerful. ali had great power by 1966, if you don't believe me, watch the williams fight, and the folley fight. the punches he hit them with were brutal and they were not by an accumilation of punches, or else it would've taken longer than 3 rounds to do away with williams. ali outclasses louis, cause louis never fought anyone like him.

Skydog
01-25-2006, 05:22 PM
you're forgetting one thing. ali had an iron chin. louis couldn't hurt ali as much as louis' other opponents. also i don't believe some one could gain power from a 3lb. weight gain. ali had basically as much power in the 60s as in the 70s. it's just that ali wasn't as fast as efore so he sat down on his punches, which made them more powerful. ali had great power by 1966, if you don't believe me, watch the williams fight, and the folley fight. the punches he hit them with were brutal and they were not by an accumilation of punches, or else it would've taken longer than 3 rounds to do away with williams. ali outclasses louis, cause louis never fought anyone like him.

While Ali does show some good power in the Folley fight, he dominated Williams because he hit him so many times. Over 300 ****ing punches in 2 and a half rounds! If I can't recall, all of the knockdowns were all many punch combos. The first was a 3 punch combo, the second a 16 punch combo, the third a 5 pucnh combo, and the fourth was about an 8 punch combo.

Yaman
01-25-2006, 05:33 PM
Maybe Folley had a granite chin though :D

Brassangel
01-25-2006, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by butterfly1964:

nice post, but IMO clearly the speed and power that ali demonstrated at that time would enable him to beat any fighter in their respective primes.

That's just it, it's your opinion. You've seriously failed to address anyone's sincere points, evidences, and retorts. Even so, it's a pleasure having you here. Check out my Patterson vs. Tyson thread!

hellfire508
01-25-2006, 11:06 PM
Ali wasn't a one punch KO artist like Louis. Ali hit hard, but not as hard as your making out Butterfly.

Heckler
01-25-2006, 11:40 PM
I believe Ali would take this. It wouldn't be a push over as some people like to imply it would. The problem here is, Louis is a textbook, conventional fighter. I think he would really struggle against Ali's style.. Alis defensive style, the leaning back from the waist and lateral movement. The strange movement Of ali, and the odd angles of which he launched punches from would give Louis problems. Louis was prone to dropping his left which would be a huge issue against Ali whom was prone to launching a lead right cross which was very hard. Louis would try jabbing Ali on to the ropes, Ali with greater reach and a quicker jab would counter with his own whilst moving laterally which logically would be more effective. Ali would continually use lateral movement using his brilliant timing and comprehension of range burst in with punches from the periphery. Occasionally Louis would manage to bustle him against the ropes and launch his powerful combos, here Ali's heart and granite Chin would save him but he'd recieve alot of damage. All too often Ali's physical qualities are focused on, it would be his heart and ability to adapt in the ring that would be the defining factor. Louis's heart wasn't as great as Ali's, nor his Stamina. Id say Ali by KO in round 10 after a very tough fight, and Ali incurring significant damage in the process. If they were to have 3 fights i think its reasonable to suggest Louis would win 1.

Heckler
01-25-2006, 11:41 PM
A 67 Ali had the power, especially when he sat on his punches and used his body.

Heckler
01-25-2006, 11:45 PM
Louis probably generated as much power for his weight as any other heavyweight (possible exceptions being Marciano and Dempsey), but his biggest asset was his incredible accuracy. He seldom missed, and when he connected, he connected hard. It's hard to quantify, but there is a big difference between a George Foreman type of power and that projected by Joe Louis. Getting hit by Foreman was like getting hit by a bus; as many times as I've watched him, I've never felt that his punches LOOKED that hard; it was almost like they were in slow motion. You could SEE them coming, but you couldn't get out of the way. The proof, though, was always in the result. Louis's power was different, more kinetic than momentum. He had great handspeed and that, combined with accuracy, is what made his punches so hard. Ali generated decent power as well, but he wasn't primarily a one-punch knockout artist. The Liston KO was a fluke, if not a fraud. I've watched that punch dozens of times; sometimes I see it, sometimes I don't. Who knows...

To me, the deciding factor would be Louis's accuracy and his body attack. Ali could back-peddle, and he could always pull his head back, but you just couldn't give Louis your midsection or he would have you. The 70's Ali would lose if he tried the rope-a-dope; Louis wouldn't waste punches like Foreman did, and he wouldn't be foolish enough to punch himself out.

Another factor that I haven't seen in this thread is the "intimidation factor". I don't think Ali would psych Joe Louis like he did Foreman. Joe Louis would walk right through all the wild eyed jive Ali specialized in.

The 60's Ali didn't have the power. He would have to win the way he won almost all his fights at that time (except Liston II), through an accumulation of punches. He threw a lot and landed a lot but without crushing power. That worked well against his 60's opponents, but he couldn't wouldn't have the time to work that strategy with a puncher as accurate as Joe Louis. Louis would hurt Ali before Ali hurt him.

That said, I'm a big fan of Ali. He was one of the best ever, but the 60's and 70's were a golden age for boxing. I think most boxing fans who lived through that time are a little subjective about it. Same can be said about the 20's, 30's and 40's.

While it's true that post '50's fighters are bigger and better trained (from a scientific perspective), there is a toughness to earlier fighters. Previous posts have mentioned the lighter gloves of the old days; that cuts (nice pun!!) both ways; a fighter got HIT with those light gloves as well as hitting others with them. I think it's a wash.

All things considered, I think Louis wins 3 out of 4 in this matchup.


Ali had this TOUGHNESS, it was never shown in his prime because there was never a need to. He was incredibly tough, and against the ropes he could absorb what Louis had to throw moments before he tied him up. Louis might of had a brilliant accuracy and power but Ali showed he could use an effective method of defense on the ropes, using his gloves and elbows at weird angles to deflect punches.

LondonRingRules
01-26-2006, 06:32 AM
===========Louis's heart wasn't as great as Ali's, nor his Stamina. Id say Ali by KO in round 10 after a very tough fight, and Ali incurring significant damage in the process. If they were to have 3 fights i think its reasonable to suggest Louis would win 1.===============

** Well, it's reasonable for someone to make a case that Ali might win most of the fights, but it ain't reasonable to claim that Louis stamina and heart is inferior to Ali. Let's not forget that Ali wanted to quit the first Liston fight and the 3rd Frazier fight and was running on fumes in a few fights during his comeback. See Bonavena and Shavers fights as two examples.

Louis was fighting on queer street the whole of the first Schmeling fight and had to climb off the deck repeatedly. The fact that he lasted the distance against Charles and made 8 rds against a killer, Marciano in Louis' "dotage" near the end of his career speaks volumes compared to the whispers Ali put on against Spinks and Holmes.

Heckler
01-26-2006, 07:05 AM
There is no evidence to suggest he was going to give up these fights... You think the man that was willing to take a pounding from Foreman for 8 rounds would give up? in the last round? only 3 minutes left? His ego wouldn't let him do that... this is more Ali-hating propoganda that goes around. Ali has stated that he said he was considering giving up in the 15th round, he later stated he said that to be nice... which is more realistic then him giving up in the last round.... if he was going to give up he would of, he was sitting in his corner silent for along time. His ego would never allow him to give up. Joe louis's end of career was not affected by neurological disorder, nor did he take as much punishment as Ali in his younger years.

Yogi
01-26-2006, 11:49 AM
There is no evidence to suggest he was going to give up these fights... this is more Ali-hating propoganda that goes around.

LOL!

Yeah, you tell them, Heckler...and curse the likes of Angelo Dundee, George Plimpton, Sports Illustrated, and even Ali himself for having the audacity to suggest he was going to give up in those fights.

Yaman
01-26-2006, 01:54 PM
Joe Louis would KO him if Ali didn't go to the ropes like a scared little Bi***.

Dempsey 1919
01-26-2006, 02:31 PM
Joe Louis would KO him if Ali didn't go to the ropes like a scared little Bi***.

if he fought '67 ali he couldn't hit him that much. we probably saw something close to ali-louis, which is ali-folley. folley fights alot like louis, only louis had more power, so ali might be hurt a little, but the end result would be similar to what happened against folley.

Dempsey 1919
01-26-2006, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by butterfly1964:



That's just it, it's your opinion. You've seriously failed to address anyone's sincere points, evidences, and retorts. Even so, it's a pleasure having you here. Check out my Patterson vs. Tyson thread!

but i back up all my opinions with facts as well.

Yogi
01-26-2006, 02:52 PM
if he fought '67 ali he couldn't hit him that much. we probably saw something close to ali-louis, which is ali-folley. folley fights alot like louis, only louis had more power, so ali might be hurt a little, but the end result would be similar to what happened against folley.

That is just plain silly, Butterfly. :rolleyes:

Dempsey 1919
01-26-2006, 02:59 PM
That is just plain silly, Butterfly. :rolleyes:

how? both folley and louis were great counterpunchers, they both weren't too fast on their feet, and they fight similar. only louis had a great deal more power, so that is what made louis better.

Yogi
01-26-2006, 03:08 PM
how? both folley and louis were great counterpunchers, they both weren't too fast on their feet, and they fight similar. only louis had a great deal more power, so that is what made louis better.

Mainly because as Ring Magazine puts it Folley "was nearly 35 and well past his prime when he finally fought for the crown against Ali."

Dempsey 1919
01-26-2006, 03:14 PM
Mainly because as Ring Magazine puts it Folley "was nearly 35 and well past his prime when he finally fought for the crown against Ali."

the only thing that age did to folley is made him vulnerable in the later rounds, cause he would have that much endurance.

Now especially in the early rounds, the 34 year old folley will be dangerous!

Dempsey1238
01-26-2006, 03:15 PM
yeha Folly was pass it indeed.

Lost foot, and hand speed.

I dont put a lot of stock in Ali's 1960's run. Most of the guys he fought were pass there primes. If you see Folly in his prime. You can see his hand speed. Dont judge Folly on Ali. He was shot. I belive Folly retire after the Ali fight right?

Yogi
01-26-2006, 03:35 PM
yeha Folly was pass it indeed.

Lost foot, and hand speed.

I dont put a lot of stock in Ali's 1960's run. Most of the guys he fought were pass there primes. If you see Folly in his prime. You can see his hand speed. Dont judge Folly on Ali. He was shot. I belive Folly retire after the Ali fight right?

Folley ended losing to the mediocre Brian London a few months after facing Ali, and London himself was described as being "near the end of the line when the opportunity came to fight Ali."

What hypocrisy this Butterfly displays at times...He's calling you out if you dare mention anything but the 1967 version of Ali, but at the same time he's trying to pass off these past their prime opponents of Ali's as completely legitimate reasoning as to why Ali would win a fantasy fight vs. (fill in name).

Dempsey1238
01-26-2006, 04:03 PM
Ali may seem to be prime, to his fans in the 1960's. Maybe, maybe not.

What they are forgetting, though is Ali prove his greatness, in the 1970's.

A win over a shot Folly means nothing, when you ko Foreman in 8, or had 3 great battles with Fraizer.

Ali may have been slower by the 1970's. But he was Smarter. I think both 60's Ali, and 70's Ali are not that far away skill wise. Speed going to 60's Ali.

Had Ali stay ban from boxing. Ali would hardly be in my top ten list.

Heckler
01-26-2006, 08:34 PM
LOL!

Yeah, you tell them, Heckler...and curse the likes of Angelo Dundee, George Plimpton, Sports Illustrated, and even Ali himself for having the audacity to suggest he was going to give up in those fights.

I believe Ali over anyone. I believe Ali to be arrogant, sometimes cruel but not a quitter, and not a liar. He said that he was considering to quit the 15th round also... but then later said that he said that to be nice. Now i find that alot more realistic then Ali going to quit with only one round left when Joe Frazier can barely throw a shot and he is clearly ahead on points by a large margin. Not after seeing the first two frazier fights and the foreman fight, and knowing of Ali's ego... i think its reasonable to dismiss the rumor of Ali giving up in Manila. At the end of the day if he was going to give up, HE WOULD OF. Its possible that he was going to give up in the first liston fight, then again he was a scared young man who couldn't see properly against someone as formidable as Liston. People will pull out anything to discredit Ali, but you cannot, not matter how much you dislike him, take his determination and heart away from him.

Oasis_Lad
01-26-2006, 08:37 PM
anyone who says ali has no heart or is a quitter deserves a smack

Yogi
01-26-2006, 09:00 PM
I believe Ali over anyone. I believe Ali to be arrogant, sometimes cruel but not a quitter, and not a liar. He said that he was considering to quit the 15th round also... but then later said that he said that to be nice. Now i find that alot more realistic then Ali going to quit with only one round left when Joe Frazier can barely throw a shot and he is clearly ahead on points by a large margin. Not after seeing the first two frazier fights and the foreman fight, and knowing of Ali's ego... i think its reasonable to dismiss the rumor of Ali giving up in Manila. At the end of the day if he was going to give up, HE WOULD OF. Its possible that he was going to give up in the first liston fight, then again he was a scared young man who couldn't see properly against someone as formidable as Liston. People will pull out anything to discredit Ali, but you cannot, not matter how much you dislike him, take his determination and heart away from him.

First off I don't dislike Ali at all...Far from it. Then again I don't bow down to him like many others do and hold him as some kind of God-like being.

And to dismiss something, it might be best if you get the rounds right as far as Manilla goes, because it wasn't the 15th round where Ali allegedly had thoughts about quitting...

"Ali slumped into his corner at the end of the 10th round exhausted and contemplated quitting." - Sports Illustrated, Oct 13th, 1975

I also provided quotes from Dundee & Plimpton (who quoted Ali, who's opinion you value over all others) in regards to the Liston fight a couple of weeks ago, so I'm not about to retype them again...Should be easy to find for you by doing a search, though, and remember that those were their words not my own.

Heckler
01-27-2006, 02:10 AM
First off I don't dislike Ali at all...Far from it. Then again I don't bow down to him like many others do and hold him as some kind of God-like being.

And to dismiss something, it might be best if you get the rounds right as far as Manilla goes, because it wasn't the 15th round where Ali allegedly had thoughts about quitting...

"Ali slumped into his corner at the end of the 10th round exhausted and contemplated quitting." - Sports Illustrated, Oct 13th, 1975

I also provided quotes from Dundee & Plimpton (who quoted Ali, who's opinion you value over all others) in regards to the Liston fight a couple of weeks ago, so I'm not about to retype them again...Should be easy to find for you by doing a search, though, and remember that those were their words not my own.


The only quote i take any note of is ALI's, only he knows what was running through his head. But you still dont get it do you, IF ALI wanted to quit... he would of... contemplation means nothing, Cus D amato said something along the lines of 'What you did in the end is what you meant all along' Thats not exact, but the meaning is essentially the same... i thing that applies well here. Theres a bit of simple logic for ya.

LondonRingRules
01-27-2006, 08:15 AM
** I forget the bio, but in one Ali is quoted as telling Dundee he was done and couldn't come out. Frazier had one of his camp in Ali's corner, a former lighter champ who I can't remember the name of right now, who desperately tried to make it over to Frazier's corner to let them know. Unfortunately Futch turned around and waved over to the ref that he was stopping the fight as the guy was fighting his way around the ring.

Joe has talked about this several times and still has bitterness towards Futch who died a few years ago. If you look at the tape as people swarm in the ring, Ali collapses as soon as he rises off his stool, and Frazier is hopping up and down in frustration as they are trying to cut him out of his gloves.

Frazier was still incredibly strong and had enough to bull Ali into the ropes and unleash Hell on him in that last round. Frazier's swollen right eye would not have been a factor, Ali's fatigue would, indeed, it's debatable whether he would have gotten off his stool that last round.

Look, Ali won the fight and gets more credit than Frazier. It was the luck of the draw in essence, maybe payback for Frazier first getting the older comebacking Ali in their first fight instead of the prime version. But the facts remain that Ali, IF he was ever invincible, it was only a brief slice of years, say from 65-67. Before and after that, he was beatable and struggled mightily at time and at the end of the day has more controversial wins than any fighter in memory, so a bit of context might be due at very least if not a large serving of humble pie.

hellfire508
01-27-2006, 10:16 AM
** I forget the bio, but in one Ali is quoted as telling Dundee he was done and couldn't come out. Frazier had one of his camp in Ali's corner, a former lighter champ who I can't remember the name of right now, who desperately tried to make it over to Frazier's corner to let them know. Unfortunately Futch turned around and waved over to the ref that he was stopping the fight as the guy was fighting his way around the ring.

Joe has talked about this several times and still has bitterness towards Futch who died a few years ago. If you look at the tape as people swarm in the ring, Ali collapses as soon as he rises off his stool, and Frazier is hopping up and down in frustration as they are trying to cut him out of his gloves.

Frazier was still incredibly strong and had enough to bull Ali into the ropes and unleash Hell on him in that last round. Frazier's swollen right eye would not have been a factor, Ali's fatigue would, indeed, it's debatable whether he would have gotten off his stool that last round.

Look, Ali won the fight and gets more credit than Frazier. It was the luck of the draw in essence, maybe payback for Frazier first getting the older comebacking Ali in their first fight instead of the prime version. But the facts remain that Ali, IF he was ever invincible, it was only a brief slice of years, say from 65-67. Before and after that, he was beatable and struggled mightily at time and at the end of the day has more controversial wins than any fighter in memory, so a bit of context might be due at very least if not a large serving of humble pie.

I always say Ali wouldn't have quit, and I truly believe that.

But that was a good post.

Dempsey 1919
01-27-2006, 01:11 PM
ali wasn't a quitter. if he was then he wouldn't fight with a broken jaw against norton, get up from the knockdown of joe frazier in '71, or want to go on against holmes even though he knows he has no chance.

Yogi
01-27-2006, 01:13 PM
The only quote i take any note of is ALI's, only he knows what was running through his head. But you still dont get it do you, IF ALI wanted to quit... he would of... contemplation means nothing. Theres a bit of simple logic for ya.

Wait a second here...just on the last page weren't you saying that there in "no evidence suggesting he was going to quit"?

"Cut my gloves off. I can't see. We're going home." Cassius Clay yelled - page 194 of Angelo Dundee's 'I Only Talk Winning'.

"Clay didn't want to come out for the round at all. He told me later he was at the door of the Near Room--the place with the trombone-playing alligators and the screaming snakes. He said that his eyes hurt so much from whatever it was in them that he told Dundee to "cut the gloves off"." - page 104 of Plimpton's 'Shadow Box'.

What YOU don't get is that there is in fact very clear "evidence suggesting he was going to quit", including the words of both his cornerman and Ali himself. And both sources I cited up there describe how Dundee basically had to shove Ali back in the ring at the beginning of the fifth round..."I shoved Cassius forward into the ring" (Dundee says after describing a brief argument he had with Ali in the corner) and "Dundee finally got his fighter moving, pushing him toward the center of the ring" (Plimpton).

I didn't come into this discussion stating Ali quit, lacked heart or anything like that...I only came in when you made that "no evidence suggesting" comment.

Heckler
01-28-2006, 11:57 PM
Wait a second here...just on the last page weren't you saying that there in "no evidence suggesting he was going to quit"?

"Cut my gloves off. I can't see. We're going home." Cassius Clay yelled - page 194 of Angelo Dundee's 'I Only Talk Winning'.

"Clay didn't want to come out for the round at all. He told me later he was at the door of the Near Room--the place with the trombone-playing alligators and the screaming snakes. He said that his eyes hurt so much from whatever it was in them that he told Dundee to "cut the gloves off"." - page 104 of Plimpton's 'Shadow Box'.

What YOU don't get is that there is in fact very clear "evidence suggesting he was going to quit", including the words of both his cornerman and Ali himself. And both sources I cited up there describe how Dundee basically had to shove Ali back in the ring at the beginning of the fifth round..."I shoved Cassius forward into the ring" (Dundee says after describing a brief argument he had with Ali in the corner) and "Dundee finally got his fighter moving, pushing him toward the center of the ring" (Plimpton).

I didn't come into this discussion stating Ali quit, lacked heart or anything like that...I only came in when you made that "no evidence suggesting" comment.


Right i conceed about the EVIDENCE. But i stand by my point, If ali was going to quit, he would of... he has a mind of his own and no trainer can override him.

moondog0
02-02-2006, 12:44 PM
Ali was very young in that fight against Liston, I believe there was something on Liston's gloves that made Ali want to quit, (he couldn't see).
It was good Dundee pushed him out there, I wouldn't think Ali was a quitter, he just didn't give full effort in every fight until he was behind on the cards...

sleazyfellow
02-04-2006, 02:18 AM
Ali was very young in that fight against Liston, I believe there was something on Liston's gloves that made Ali want to quit, (he couldn't see).
It was good Dundee pushed him out there, I wouldn't think Ali was a quitter, he just didn't give full effort in every fight until he was behind on the cards...

if he would of quit on his stool cause of his eyes burning i beleive he wouldnt of gotten a rematch against liston..but neways i heard in earlier threads that billy conn had a weak chin, thats bull...it took many hits from louis to put him down, the little tough irish bastard..but neways i take louis over ali just cause in his prime he was well rounded, threw a great left hook and ali could never deal with leftys, just factor in the other right hand of joes and he would have a decsion over ali or a late round knockout

Kid Achilles
02-04-2006, 12:56 PM
Conn certainly did not have a weak jaw. He was also a big man for a light heavweight. 6'2" or so.

Heckler
02-07-2006, 04:54 AM
if he would of quit on his stool cause of his eyes burning i beleive he wouldnt of gotten a rematch against liston..but neways i heard in earlier threads that billy conn had a weak chin, thats bull...it took many hits from louis to put him down, the little tough irish bastard..but neways i take louis over ali just cause in his prime he was well rounded, threw a great left hook and ali could never deal with leftys, just factor in the other right hand of joes and he would have a decsion over ali or a late round knockout

Ali didn't like the hook, but he could deal with it. Especially a 66-67 Ali, whom would get hit alot less with a left hook then he did following the layoff. Louis was open for the right cross, Alis bread and butter punch. Louis was technically superior, but i feel Ali's speed and movement would overwhelm Joe. Joe would also struggle with someone that used unorthodox means such as Ali. After a grueling fight, Ali KO 12.

Brockton Lip
02-07-2006, 08:57 AM
Now that I think about it more, Ali would probably win by stoppage. Hes too fast and unorthodox for the lumbering, precise Brown Bomber.

Dempsey 1919
02-07-2006, 02:33 PM
Now that I think about it more, Ali would probably win by stoppage. Hes too fast and unorthodox for the lumbering, precise Brown Bomber.

definetely ali wouldn't have that much trouble with louis.

sykesf
12-02-2008, 05:58 PM
Ali in his prime would stop Louis in his prime. Ali would use his superior hand speed, body movement and footwork. Infact Louis would struggle to hit Ali with a power punch in the earlier rounds. Louis never fought anyone the caliber of Ali. Plus Ali always performed better against power punchers except maybe Frazier. Foreman, Liston, Shavers, Bob Foster and Bonavena all hard hitters were easy pickins for Ali. Louis compared in a lot of ways to these fighters only he was a better rounded and complete fighter. I could see Ali stopping Louis on TKO somewhere between the 10th and 15th round. In a 12 rounder anywhere between the 8th and 12 round.

JAB5239
12-02-2008, 06:52 PM
How Joe Louis Would Have Beaten Muhammad Ali!
By Monte D. Cox







In the July 1991 Ring Magazine I had a letter published giving four reasons why I thought Muhammad Ali would have defeated Joe Louis had these two all time great heavyweights ever met in their respective primes. These four reasons sum up how most modern boxing fans think of a potential Ali-Louis battle: 1) Ali had greater speed, especially of foot. 2) Ali had the ability to adapt and change his fight plan while Louis tended to be more robotic. 3) Ali had the better chin and successfully absorbed the bombs of some of boxing***8217;s most dangerous sluggers. 4) Ali was never beaten at his best; his first loss came at age 29.

Having grown up as a fan of Muhammad Ali it is sometimes difficult to be objective. I felt a need to prove this popular theory to myself. I began an intensive study of the two great heavyweights particular styles by thoroughly studying films of both fighters, as well as the opinions of other knowledgeable historians and trainers. Within a year I published an article in the May 1992 Boxing Scene ***8220;Joe Louis: The Best Heavyweight Ever!" In this article I argued that out of all the heavyweight champions it was Joe Louis who most closely resembled the perfect fighter. I concluded the Louis-Ali match-up as a toss up that could go either way. After more years of study I now firmly believe that Joe Louis could defeat Muhammad Ali. The following describes the how and why.

Muhammad Ali has become such a legend that people think of him as invincible. One person wrote to me that Ali was a ***8220;demi-god***8221;. I admit it***8217;s pretty impossible to defeat a deity. However, Ali was not a god, but a human being and as such had human frailties. As Jack Dempsey once said ***8220;no man has everything.***8221; Ali had a number of weaknesses as a fighter. He did not have an orthodox style and never learned the rudiments of classical boxing. Ali made many tactical errors in the ring. Ali did not know how to properly hold his hands, or how to duck (he pulled back or sidestepped), nor did he know how to parry or to block a jab!

Ken Norton***8217;s trainer Eddie Futch said, (Anderson pg. 233), ***8220;The jab was a big reason Muhammad Ali never figured out why he had so much trouble with Ken Norton in their three fights.***8221;

In the May 5, 1969 Sports Illustrated, in an article, "Clay-Ali: The Once and Future King", Ali demonstrated how he avoided a jab. He relied on judging the distance and leaning away as in the photograph left He didnt know how to block a jab! If you look at Ali on film, he held his right hand out to the side and did not have it in position to block a jab. That is why Ali had problems with certain fighters like Doug Jones and Norton, fighters with a good left jab could cause him great difficulty.

Norton consistently hit Ali with his jab because Ali didn't keep his right hand up to parry Norton***8217;s counter jab. Ali leaned away from punches. He dropped his hands low. He threw a right uppercut from the outside and dropped his right hand every time before he threw it! This is precicely why Ali was vulnerable to the left hook througout his career. A thorough study of film reveals these flaws in Ali's style. These poor habits caused him trouble with quick handed boxers who had solid left hands.

Joe Louis said of Ali in his autobiography (Louis p 260), ***8220;Ali***8217;s a great fighter, (but) he made too many mistakes, his hands are down a lot, and he takes too many punches to the body. I know what I***8217;m talking about.***8221;

Technically, Ali wasn't a very good fighter; it was just that his physical gifts (speed, reflexes, and chin) were so astonishing that he was able to get away with things that would have gotten most fighters beaten up. Some may argue he did end beaten up when his career was over. George Foreman noted on his web-site (www.georgeforeman.com) that after Ali***8217;s speed diminished ***8220;it became apparent that he never really learned defense.***8221;

So many Ali worshippers are under the impression that Ali was "unhittable" in his prime. This is a myth. George Chuvalo, a limited fighter who lacked both skills had sucess at times against a prime Ali with a body attack. Chuvalo who lacked both speed and hitting accuracy managed to catch Ali flush on the chin with a solid right cross in the 13th round. In both fights with Henry Cooper Ali was hit cleanly by a very average fighter. Even in their second fight Cooper managed to land a fair number of left jabs and hooks as Ali leaned away from punches before Cooper was badly cut.

Ali's tactic of leaning away from punches was considered suicidal by the old-timers. This with good reason, such a tactic could be exploited by a good feinter. Fortunately for Ali, the art of feinting has been an all but lost art since WW2, especially amongst heavyweights. Joe Louis, however, did use occasional feints to set up his devastating counter-punches. Caswell Adams of the New York Herald-Tribune wrote, March 31, 1935, "Louis can punch with terrific power...He can feint a foe out of position." By catching Ali coming back after leaning away from a feint, his counter-punches would land with double impact!

Ali's chin was among the best in heavyweight history, but no man***8217;s chin is impregnable. Ali was nearly kayoed by Henry Cooper***8217;s left hook. He was very fortunate the punch came at the end of the round. He returned to his corner glassy eyed and his trainer Angelo Dundee used smelling salts in the corner to revive him.

Ali also struggled against Doug Jones. The lesson from that fight is not whether Ali deserved the decision, but that a small heavyweight of modest ability was able to be competitive with him. Fighters with quick hands and good left jabs always caused him technical problems. Against Louis, Ali would be facing one of the fastest and most powerful jabbers in boxing history.

Now, consider the statement by Murray Goodman, (Boxing Scene. Spring 1995), that Joe Louis ***8220;could knock you out with a left jab.***8221;

Historian Mike Silver wrote, (Ring Almanac, p 122, 1998) ***8220;There was kayo power in every one of Joe Louis punches, but the most important of all was the battering ram of a jab, which was equal in power to an ordinary heavyweights right cross.***8221;

JAB5239
12-02-2008, 06:53 PM
Boxing historian and writer Ted Carroll summarized a potential Ali vs. Louis match-up, (Ring, July 1966), ***8220;Louis had one of the fastest right hands ever seen in a ring. It boomed out of his slow moving gait with the speed and suddenness of a rattler. Clay***8217;s defensive technique relies greatly upon leaning backward out of range of his opponent***8217;s blows. Against a right hand of Louis speed and power this would have been a highly dangerous maneuver and the current champion would have been flirting with disaster every time he tried it. It is possible to conceive Clay getting a decision over Louis in a bout that lasted the full 15 rounds. But it is not so easy to imagine his going the distance without getting tagged by Louis fast hands somewhere along the way. When that happened it could mean the end of everything right then and there for Muhammad Ali.***8221;

Carroll also noted that boxers with great footwork such as Conn and Pastor had given Louis trouble. But Ali was not as correct a boxer as Billy Conn or Bob Pastor. Ali had many faults in his style. Joe Frazier nearly knocked him out in the 11th round of their first fight as Ali exposed himself in the corner with his hands down. A crunching left hook, the punch that Ali was vulnerable to throughout his career, had Ali wobbling around the ring in serious trouble. Louis was a faster and by far a more accurate and powerful puncher than Frazier was. He was the finest combination puncher in heavyweight history, and possibly the greatest finisher. If Louis had Ali hurt the way Frazier did in the 11th round there is no way Ali would have survived.

Ali***8217;s legs were doing the ***8220;dance that puppets do when the guy with the strings is drunk.***8221; -Bob Waters, Newsday, Mar 1971

Had that been Joe Louis in there instead of Joe Frazier it would have been over! Louis was a deadly finisher and didn't let his man off the hook when hurt. The ***8220;Brown Bomber***8221; was the epitome of the hooded assassin. In fact the saying goes "Once Joe Louis had his man hurt...."

Foreman had Ali out on his feet by Muhammad***8217;s own admission (Ali pg. 406-409). George Foreman and Earnie Shavers were arguably heavier hitters than was Louis, but they were not nearly as explosive or quick with their hands. George and Earnie were limited fighters who ran out of gas in the later rounds. Foreman was the heavyweight destroyer non-pareil, who owned the first five rounds of any fight, but by the sixth he was done. Shavers tried to pace himself in his fight with Ali, and consequently failed to go after him after he had him hurt. Louis had 15 round stamina and kept his power into the late rounds. Louis was a constant knockout threat throughout a fight, while Ali only had to make it though the early rounds against Shavers and Foreman, who threw a lot of wild haymakers, wasting their limited energy. Louis didn***8217;t make that mistake, throwing short, jolting, economically sound punches. Louis would pick his shots and take apart any man who placed himself on the ropes.

The ***8220;rope-a-dope***8221; would not work against Louis, in much the same way it didn***8217;t work against Frazier in Manila. In that fight, he absorbed a terrible beating to the body.

***8220;Ali slumped into his corner at the end of the 10th round exhausted and contemplated quitting***8221;, Sports Illustrated, Oct 13, 1975.

Louis would pressure Ali, like Frazier and Norton. Ali didn***8217;t like pressure, as he preferred to box from the outside. Joe Louis once described how he would have fought Ali, The Ring, Feb. 1967:

***8220;The kid has speed and there***8217;s no one around to outbox him, and the opponent who tries is in his grave. Especially in the middle if the ring. I***8217;d see to it that Clay didn***8217;t stay in ring center. No. He***8217;d be hit into those ropes as near a corner as I could get him. If he stayed on the ropes he would get hurt. Sooner or later he***8217;d try to bounce off, when he did he would get hurt more. I***8217;d press him, cut down his speed, and bang him around the ribs. I***8217;d punish the body. ***8220;Kill the body and the head will die***8221;, Chappie use to tell me. It figures. Sooner or later he***8217;d forget about that face of his and he would start dropping that left hand like he did against Mildenberger and Chuvalo. Those fellows got their openings by accident, and fouled it up. I would work for it and wouldn***8217;t reckon to miss when it arrived. Cassius Clay is a nice boy and a smart fighter. But I am sure Joe Louis would have licked him.***8221;

Joe Frazier fought this battle plan mapped out by Louis in 1967 almost to perfection in 1971. Frazier began working the body early. He punished Ali along the ropes, and when his opening finally came (in the 11th and again in the 15th) Frazier took advantage. Smokin***8217; Joe failed to score a knockout that day but his victory was decisive. The plan almost worked in the third fight as well, Ali absorbed such a beating he said it was ***8220;the closest thing to death***8221; that he had ever experienced.

Kenny Norton used a very similar plan. Eddie Futch always believed that Joe Louis had the correct style to exploit Ali's fundamental flaws. He trained Norton to use the same strategy he believed Louis would have employed. Futch instructed Norton, (Anderson p 235), ***8220;Your not going to hit Ali by slipping, dropping underneath or parrying. You have to hit him while he***8217;s punching. When he starts to jab you punch with him. Keep your right hand high. His jab will pop into the middle of your glove and then your jab will come right down the pipe***8230;that is what destroyed Ali***8217;s rhythm.***8221; Ali jabbing with his right hand out to the side made him vulnerable to a counter jab. A classic boxer with his rigth hand held in proper position could catch Ali's jab in his glove and counter, Ali would be helpless to avoid it since his hand was not in the correct position.

Futch further planned out the following, (p 235), ***8220;If you start from the center of the ring it will only take you three steps to get Ali on the ropes. Every time you jab, step in and jab again. Then do the same thing.***8221; Then Eddie told him what to do when he got Ali to the ropes, ***8220;Don***8217;t do like all the other guys do. Don***8217;t throw your left hook to the head, he***8217;ll pull back against the ropes and pepper you with counter-punches, instead start banging his body with both hands.***8221; That is how Norton, whose jab, speed, and power was inferior to Joe Louis, gave Ali hell in three very close fights.

JAB5239
12-02-2008, 06:54 PM
Joe Louis trainer Jack Blackburn was a master boxer with over 160 pro fights, an all-time great lightweight who fought heavyweights. He was a genius at boxing strategy. Blackburn would have devised a plan to defeat Ali using the same strategy that Joe spoke of in 1967 and used by Futch with Norton. He would have seen the same weaknesses that Frazier and Norton used to defeat Ali. Ali did not hold his right hand in place to block the counter-jab. Chappie Blackburn would tell Joe, ***8220;he***8217;s a sucker for a left jab.***8221; Louis had the perfect classic style to defeat Ali. It would not matter that Ali***8217;s jab would ***8220;get there first.***8221; Joe would block Ali***8217;s jab with his right glove held high, his chin tucked under his shoulder (see picture left) and counter Ali in the middle of his face with his own jab just as Norton did. He would use the jab to maneuver Ali to the ropes.

Goodman noted that Louis was a ***8220;master at cutting off the ring.***8221;

Ali said, (The Greatest p 405), that he was forced to go to the ropes against Foreman, ***8220;All during training I had planned to stay off the ropes***8230;but now I***8217;ve got to change my plans. Sadler and Moore have drilled George too well. He does his job like a robot but he does it well***8230;I***8217;m famous for being hard to hit in the first rounds, but no fighter can last (dance) fifteen if he has to take six steps to his opponents three.***8221;

Joe would put continuous physical and psychological pressure on Ali. Louis would cut off the ring and step Ali towards the ropes, where he would then pound the body. Muhammad would then begin to drop his hands. Blackburn would instruct him ***8220;when he drops his right hand to throw the uppercut, deliver the knockout drops with the left hook.***8221; Joe Frazier exploited this same flaw when he dropped Ali in the 15th round of their first fight.

Eventually Louis would see an opening and strike. Goodman described a Joe Louis assault like this:

***8220;There were no warnings with a Louis punch. He would lash out like a cobra, and it could be just as deadly.***8221;

Jimmy Braddock was once asked what it was like to get hit by ***8220;The Brown Bomber***8217;s***8221; punch, ***8220;It ain***8217;t like a punch,***8221; Braddock said. ***8220;It***8217;s like somebody nailed you with a crowbar!***8221; -75 Years of The Ring, Vol. 3, No. 1, 1997 Section: The Best Puncher.

"All the blows in Joe Louis arsenal were so perfectly and precisely thrown every time that you get the sense watching him that he couldn't have been wild or sloppy if he tried." --William Dettloff in the 2004 Ring Almanac describing his selection of Joe Louis at #1 among the 100 greatest punchers of all time.

Louis punches were not just heavy punches like Foreman or Shavers but fast and explosive punches. Ray Arcel, one of the greatest trainers in history worked against Louis in 14 of his fights, said, (Anderson, 120), "Louis once drove Paulino Uzcudin's teeth right through his mouthpiece!" Arcel said it was the hardest punch he ever saw. Not Joe Frazier, not George Foreman, not Earnie Shavers had that kind of dynamite behind their punches.

Louis would catch Ali along the ropes with one of his most powerful and deadly hooks. Unlike Frazier, Joe Louis could throw a triple left hook with speed and power as he did against Max Baer. Ali***8217;s legs would turn to jelly. Louis combinations would fire with piston like precision and the power of a human jackhammer. The speed of Louis assault would be mesmerizing. Ali would be battered unmercilessly and unceasingly until the referee was forced to call an end to the execution.

Some "analysts" never bother to study films and therefore don't see the technical flaws in Ali's style demonstrated in this article. Instead they make a pointless argument as to how well some of Louis opponents would have done against Ali or the quality of Ali's opposition as compared to Louis. It doesn't matter. Styles make fights. Billy Conn and Max Schmeling did not have Joe Louis physical attributes or his style. Ken Norton had the style to give Ali fits; a right parrying hand to block Ali's jab-a good left jab in return, pressure on the inside, a strong body attack and a good left hook that Ali was susceptible to. Joe Louis had all these attributes and was a faster and far more powerful and explosive puncher than Ken Norton was.

Joe Louis was not well prepared for some of his opponents because he didn't know much about them, but any fighter that gave Louis trouble the first time was destroyed in rematches. Louis was 10-0 in return engagements. Louis proved he could make the adjustments to defeat the weaknesses in an opponents style. Ali, despite all his innovativeness, never did understand why Norton gave him so much trouble. It was because Ali didn't know how to block a jab and Norton's trainer Eddie Futch knew how to exploit it. Eddie always believed that Louis had the style to beat Ali. In the March 1992 Ring, Futch picked Louis to stop Ali late in a mythical dream fight. I never understood why until I quit repeating the same old lame arguments and started really studying films. Joe Louis had the style to exploit Ali's technical flaws.

In comparison to my original somewhat superficial thoughts from my 1991 letter a more thorough examination of the facts shows the following to be true:


While Ali is the fastest heavyweight ever, Louis was nearly as fast with his hands. Ali***8217;s many tactical mistakes would leave him open to one of Louis lightning-like strikes. His foot-speed and jab would be negated by Louis properly placed right parrying hand. Louis would render ineffective Ali***8217;s primary weapon, his left jab, and drive him to the ropes vis-a-vis Ken Norton.

Ali was a master of strategy against slow handed bruisers like Liston, Terrell, Foreman, and Shavers. He had more trouble with men with hand speed who could punch with him like Doug Jones, Norton, and Jimmy Young. Louis was superior in hand speed to any of these men. With the previously outlined strategy, which Blackburn and Joe would be sure to implement, Louis would not be at a strategic disadvantage against Ali.

Ali had a great chin, but he was not a diety. Nat Fleischer rated Joe Louis as the greatest finisher in ring history. Consider that Joe Frazier had Ali in serious trouble and he did not have Louis speed of delivery, combination punching ability, nor was he as deadly a finisher. Had it been Joe Louis he would have kayoed Ali in the first Frazier first fight, and also in the third. Liston, Foreman and Shavers were big punchers but slow of hand, and could not carry on a sustained assault for 15 rounds. Louis definitely would not tire and he was a more explosive and sharper puncher in the mold of a young Mike Tyson. Louis had real shock value in his punches. Ali***8217;s chin would have its greatest test not against Frazier or Foreman but against Joe Louis.

Ali was never beaten until a 3-year lay-off, but it was still close to his physical prime he was less than 2 months removed from his 29th birthday. Some would say he lost to Doug Jones, and he was nearly kayoed by Cooper so his unbeaten streak is not without tarnish. In comparing Ali when he retired at age 36 after beating Spinks his record was 56-3 with 37 kayos. Louis when he retired as champion at age 35 was 60-1 with 51 kayos. Louis also lost four of his best years due to WW2 just as Ali lost 3 ½ years in his forced exile. Overall Ali faced the better competition, but Max Schmeling (a first rate counter-puncher), Max Baer (one of the hardest hitters in division history), Arturo Godoy (never knocked off his feet in his first 70 pro fights), and Jersey Joe Walcott (one of the slickest boxer-punchers of all time) are better than anyone that Ali faced during his prime years, with the exception of Sonny Liston. Both Ali and Louis were dominant champions.

Ali had a slight edge in size over Joe. Ali was 6***8217;3***8221; 212 pounds in his prime, and had an 80-inch reach. Louis was 6***8217;1 ½***8221;, and about 207, his best weight in his rematches against Buddy Baer and Abe Simon. Louis had a 76***8221; reach. Louis height and reach is about the same as Evander Holyfield. Frazier was 205 in the first Ali-Frazier fight, so any physical advantage is void. Joe Louis had the hand speed, the jab, the power, the stamina, the ring smarts and the style to defeat Muhammad Ali. Joe Louis is the one man who would knock Muhammad Ali out!

COOP407
12-03-2008, 01:52 AM
I think way more highly of Louis than I think of Ali, but I believe that in a prime vs prime fight, Ali dances to a decision.

Smokin'J
12-09-2008, 06:48 PM
Checked on that fake ass game,

Louis got knock downed twice before he won the decision

Here's Jimmy Lennon with the call…

Ladies and Gentlemen, the judges have tallied their scorecards and here is your decision…

Lou Tabet, United States scores the bout 142 to 141 for Joe Louis

Victor Cervantes, Mexico scores the bout 142 to 142 - even

Pete Podgorski, United States scores the bout 142 to 141 for...

...Joe Louis

The winner by majority decision is Joe Louis!

Punching accuracy
54.1% Ali 40.9% Louis

Ali threw 545 punches
Lous threw 845 punches

fight_professor
12-09-2008, 10:59 PM
^^

What are you referring to son?

I feel most experts pick Ali to beat Louis. Certainly for me, Ali outfoxes him.

MarkScott
12-12-2008, 11:09 PM
Absolutely a great fight. I think Ali could stay away and win on points, but Louis may catch him with a hook which Ali was always vulnerable to.