View Full Version : Manuel Ortiz, how great is he?


IronDanHamza
04-23-2011, 08:36 PM
Manuel Ortiz is my favourite Bantamweight of all time, and one of my favourite fighters ever.

For a while I have been thinking on where to rank him P4P but I haven't found a range of where to rank him. Personally, I have him as A Top 5 ATG Bantamweight.

He has 18 title defences of the offical World Title at Bantam (I believe) which is more than any Champion in Bantamweight history (Correct me If I'm wrong because I'm not 100% sure on this one)

He beat a list of good fighters and beat over 10 Top 5 or Top 10 ranked fighters. And retire 98-28.

Do his lack of names and multiple loss's hurt his legacy?

So, how great is Manuel Ortiz? At Bantam and all time?

Discuss.

Steak
04-23-2011, 08:53 PM
Notable cometiton beaten:
Tony Olivera
Kenny Lindsay
Lou Salica
Lou Salica
Tony Olivera
Leonardo Lopez
Ernesto Aguilar
Tony Olivera
Larry Bolvin-FW
Enrique Bolanos-FW
Luis Castillo
Luis Castillo
Luis Castillo
Harold Dade
Kong Young
Memo Valero

more wins over top competition at BW than even Jofre. almost every loss of his came pre or post prime, and/or at featherweight. from 1941 to the end of his title reign, he only lost one fight at bantamweight, which he avenged within three months.

crold1
04-23-2011, 08:56 PM
I had him rated 4th (http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-bantamweights-all-time-top-ten--21822) and he's impressive as hell:

4) Manuel Ortiz (1938-55)

*Record: 97-28-3, 49 KO*

*World Champion 1942-47, 15 Defenses; 1947-50, 4 Defenses*

*Bantamweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 3: (Lou Salica, Harold Dade, Vic Toweel)*

While the California native could be streaky, the boxer-puncher was a master on his best days and dominated the title scene of the 1940s like few have ever done in any class. As was the case with so many in older eras, Ortiz learned his craft in the ring, losing along the way but collecting needed lessons against the likes of Jackie Jurich and longtime rival Salica. By 1942, it was enough to upend Salica for the World title, kicking off the most prolific reign of them all statistically. Including a rematch knockout of Salica, Ortiz would make a record 15 consecutive defenses of the lineal crown, adding non-title wins against the tough of Enrique Bolanos and Carlos Chavez along the way along with a Featherweight loss to the great Willie Pep. As was the case with Salica, Ortiz solved Jurich with the title on the line, stopping him in 11 in 1946. A 1947 upset loss to the relatively inexperienced Harold Dade was reversed just two months later, kicking off another three-plus years as champion, a time in which he again beat Dade and future Lightweight champion Lauro Salas. It was finally Vic Toweel, on the challengers turf in South Africa, who would halt Ortiz’s monopoly on the title and Ortiz would retire in 1955, never a champion again.

Why He’s Here: Beyond the phenomenal title numbers or the duration of his title dominance, Ortiz showed a great ability to adapt in rematches all the way to the cradle of his career. Ortiz lost his very first bout to Benny Goldberg in 1938 and in 1943 found Goldberg still without a loss on his ledger in 33 contests. Ortiz added one in defense of his crown. There were bantamweights who fought in better eras, some who fought better fighters, but none can say they were a greater champion than Ortiz. There has never been anyone who can say that. Ortiz was added to the IBHOF in 1996.

NChristo
04-23-2011, 09:00 PM
Top 5 Bantam without question imo.

Orlando Canizales has the most defences at Bantam.

crold1
04-23-2011, 09:09 PM
Top 5 Bantam without question imo.

Orlando Canizales has the most defences at Bantam.

Canizales defended A belt the most times consecutively. Ortiz defended THE world title the most times consecutively. I keep track of both for the site ratings:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/view.php?pg=boxing-ratings

IronDanHamza
04-23-2011, 09:23 PM
Last time I did a Bantamweight list I had him at #4.

I love the guy, I really do.

How do people feel about his all time ranking? What range does anyone feel he belong in?

McGoorty
07-28-2011, 11:55 AM
I had him rated 4th (http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-bantamweights-all-time-top-ten--21822) and he's impressive as hell:

4) Manuel Ortiz (1938-55)

*Record: 97-28-3, 49 KO*

*World Champion 1942-47, 15 Defenses; 1947-50, 4 Defenses*

*Bantamweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 3: (Lou Salica, Harold Dade, Vic Toweel)*

While the California native could be streaky, the boxer-puncher was a master on his best days and dominated the title scene of the 1940s like few have ever done in any class. As was the case with so many in older eras, Ortiz learned his craft in the ring, losing along the way but collecting needed lessons against the likes of Jackie Jurich and longtime rival Salica. By 1942, it was enough to upend Salica for the World title, kicking off the most prolific reign of them all statistically. Including a rematch knockout of Salica, Ortiz would make a record 15 consecutive defenses of the lineal crown, adding non-title wins against the tough of Enrique Bolanos and Carlos Chavez along the way along with a Featherweight loss to the great Willie Pep. As was the case with Salica, Ortiz solved Jurich with the title on the line, stopping him in 11 in 1946. A 1947 upset loss to the relatively inexperienced Harold Dade was reversed just two months later, kicking off another three-plus years as champion, a time in which he again beat Dade and future Lightweight champion Lauro Salas. It was finally Vic Toweel, on the challengers turf in South Africa, who would halt Ortiz’s monopoly on the title and Ortiz would retire in 1955, never a champion again.

Why He’s Here: Beyond the phenomenal title numbers or the duration of his title dominance, Ortiz showed a great ability to adapt in rematches all the way to the cradle of his career. Ortiz lost his very first bout to Benny Goldberg in 1938 and in 1943 found Goldberg still without a loss on his ledger in 33 contests. Ortiz added one in defense of his crown. There were bantamweights who fought in better eras, some who fought better fighters, but none can say they were a greater champion than Ortiz. There has never been anyone who can say that. Ortiz was added to the IBHOF in 1996.
That was so well said, that's a great post, I learned a lot more about him. I have seen a couple of his fights, one, I think it was Balanos, showed that Manuel was a great fighter and also, to make a point, his opponents look impressive. I don't know how his era compares to the couple of decades before and after. Some era's can be deceptive, with one a bit better than the rest and a very wide talent pool can make it seem like a lesser era to some, but in fact it may be an era of many talented BW's, just with one dominating. I think Ring named him the BW fighter of the year about 7 or 8 times,.....................Now that is an impressive feat in those days.

McGoorty
07-28-2011, 12:06 PM
Last time I did a Bantamweight list I had him at #4.

I love the guy, I really do.

How do people feel about his all time ranking? What range does anyone feel he belong in?
Seeing as though you put him at 4 AT BW, I believe that he must be fairly high on there. The way I see it mate, any fighter in a top 5 in a linear weight class would be the first 40 names I would put down if I'm making a top 70 of all time. Then I approach it by going through all the fighters that excelled in two or three weight divisions, and I would have a very representative list with fighters over the entire 1892 -- 2000 period, of course you then have to rank those guys in order.,,---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the last 11 years I think it best for fighters to be retired for about 5 years before they go on lists,.........except of course for the rare 3 or 4, like Pacman

TheGreatA
07-28-2011, 01:27 PM
He was a terrifying inside fighter with a cast-iron chin who was never counted out in nearly 130 fights, of which almost 30 were fought for some type of title. I think few bantamweights, especially considering his style, will ever match his longevity. He spent 10 years as a top world class fighter.

Here is one of his later fights against Theo Medina of France:

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vliQs7a3J5c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

At 33 years of age he still didn't lack any viciousness. The uppercut was probably his best punch.

Vs Jackie Paterson:

<h2>PATERSON A GAME LOSER</h2><iframe src="http://www.britishpathe.com/embed.php?archive=26663" name="pathe_flash_embed" width="352" height="264" scrolling="no" frameborder="1"><p>Your browser does not support iframes.</p></iframe>

IronDanHamza
07-28-2011, 01:40 PM
Seeing as though you put him at 4 AT BW, I believe that he must be fairly high on there. The way I see it mate, any fighter in a top 5 in a linear weight class would be the first 40 names I would put down if I'm making a top 70 of all time. Then I approach it by going through all the fighters that excelled in two or three weight divisions, and I would have a very representative list with fighters over the entire 1892 -- 2000 period, of course you then have to rank those guys in order.,,---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the last 11 years I think it best for fighters to be retired for about 5 years before they go on lists,.........except of course for the rare 3 or 4, like Pacman

Making a list of the 100 greatest fighters is just sheer torture, my man.

I have tried to make a list but it's honestly too strenuous.

I stick to making weight class lists and have a certain range of where I were to rank a fighter.

I.e, I KNOW I would have Harold Johnson amongst the 100 greatest fighters of all time but I simply do not know where I would rank him specifically.

The same goes for Dick Tiger.

In terms of Manuel Ortiz, man, I don't know where I would put him. Top 50?

IronDanHamza
07-28-2011, 01:42 PM
He was a terrifying inside fighter with a cast-iron chin who was never counted out in nearly 130 fights, of which almost 30 were fought for some type of title. I think few bantamweights, especially considering his style, will ever match his longevity. He spent 10 years as a top world class fighter.

Here is one of his later fights against Theo Medina of France:

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vliQs7a3J5c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

At 33 years of age he still didn't lack any viciousness. The uppercut was probably his best punch.

Vs Jackie Paterson:

<h2>PATERSON A GAME LOSER</h2><iframe src="http://www.britishpathe.com/embed.php?archive=26663" name="pathe_flash_embed" width="352" height="264" scrolling="no" frameborder="1"><p>Your browser does not support iframes.</p></iframe>

Wasn't he just!

Another point you touched on was the longevity of a fighter which his style, it's pretty unmatched, certainly for his weight class.

Another testament to the greatness of Manuel Ortiz.