Back in the 1900's, Jack Johnson was heavily avoided by white fighters. The predominant white champion at the time retired in order not to fight him, and flat out said he would "never fight a negro". But, when an Australian promoter put up 30,000 dollars for champ Tommy Burns to fight Johnson (because Burns said he wouldn't fight him for any less than this astronomical sum which he thought no promoter could come up with) the fight was made. Johnson made Burns his bitch, embarrassing the best fighter the whites had to offer and winning by TKO when the police stepped in the ring to stop the fight.

Basically, Johnson didn't lose legit once when on top of his game. He lost finally when he was 37, in a fight outside when it was 105 degrees to a man that outweighed him by 25 lbs and was 5 inches taller than himself.

When Joe Louis came onto the scene in the 30's, Johnson wanted to train him but Louis' managers said no, insulting Johnson, saying that Johnson was everything they didn't want Louis to be. That left a bitter taste in Johnson's mouth who bas a black icon. When Louis fought Schmeling the first time, Jack Johnson predicted he would lose by KO, and he did. He got KTFO'd in fact.

Basically...all this drama...all this disrespect...who would have won a fight between Joe Louis and Jack Johnson had they been able to fight each other in their primes, having the same resources of the 1940's to train?

Back in the 1900's, Jack Johnson was heavily avoided by white fighters. The predominant white champion at the time retired in order not to fight him, and flat out said he would "never fight a negro". But, when an Australian promoter put up 30,000 dollars for champ Tommy Burns to fight Johnson (because Burns said he wouldn't fight him for any less than this astronomical sum which he thought no promoter could come up with) the fight was made. Johnson made Burns his bitch, embarrassing the best fighter the whites had to offer and winning by TKO when the police stepped in the ring to stop the fight.

Basically, Johnson didn't lose legit once when on top of his game. He lost finally when he was 37, in a fight outside when it was 105 degrees to a man that outweighed him by 25 lbs and was 5 inches taller than himself.

When Joe Louis came onto the scene in the 30's, Johnson wanted to train him but Louis' managers said no, insulting Johnson, saying that Johnson was everything they didn't want Louis to be. That left a bitter taste in Johnson's mouth who bas a black icon. When Louis fought Schmeling the first time, Jack Johnson predicted he would lose by KO, and he did. He got KTFO'd in fact.

Basically...all this drama...all this disrespect...who would have won a fight between Joe Louis and Jack Johnson had they been able to fight each other in their primes, having the same resources of the 1940's to train?
I would think that Johnson had a greater reach and would beat louis by UD.

Basically, Johnson didn't lose legit once when on top of his game. He lost finally when he was 37, in a fight outside when it was 105 degrees to a man that outweighed him by 25 lbs and was 5 inches taller than himself.


When Tommy Burns lost to Johnson, Burns was 5'7" and weighed 168 pounds compared to Johnson's 6'1 1/2" and 192 lbs. How can you make excuses for Johnson and not for Burns? Either way Louis crushes Johnson. If the middleweight Ketchel can put Johnson flat on his back, Louis would do a lot worse to him.

Johnson was a defensive marvel and would not be an easy foe for any of the all-time greats.

How ever, Louis was probably the greatest heavyweight of all time, and his offense was marvelous. With his handspeed, great timing, superb accuracy and awesome power, Louis would put Johnson on the canvas for keeps inside of five rounds.

Joe Louis by ko5.

no doubt louis would ko ore ud johnson.

When Tommy Burns lost to Johnson, Burns was 5'7" and weighed 168 pounds compared to Johnson's 6'1 1/2" and 192 lbs. How can you make excuses for Johnson and not for Burns? Either way Louis crushes Johnson. If the middleweight Ketchel can put Johnson flat on his back, Louis would do a lot worse to him.

Maybe uhh, I dunno, because Burns was the CHAMPION (or so the whites said at the time). Burns was also in his prime. Johnson was NOT in his prime by any stretch when he foguth Willard. No excuses, just legit reasons.

Also, don't be stupid about Ketchel. Ketchel was Johnson's friend and Jack agreed before the fight not to hurt him. So Ketchel all of a sudden surprises Jack and tries to hurt him with a wild punch. Obviously it caught Jack by surprise since they had agreed to take it easy. Jack got up immediately and knocked Ketchel the **** out, settin his teeth clean out of his mouth.

if a middlewieght like billy conn could knock down louis, imagine what a 204 pound johnson would do to him.

joe louis ko within 8. johnson gets carried to his stool.

you are retarded.

if a middlewieght like billy conn could knock down louis, imagine what a 204 pound johnson would do to him.
ketchel rocked johnson and he was a small middleweight and billy conn was a light heavy and one of the greatest fighters of all time. johnson doesnt stand a chance against louis.

naturally, johnson was 204. louis was 195 lol! and ketchel is also considered an all-time great. johnson was toying with him and got careless. look what happened to ketchel about hmmm....5 seconds and 5 missing teeth later LOL!! louis was knocked down fare and square, and it took till the later rounds till louis finished him off. johnson wasn't even shaken up by that knockdown. louis was. your argument is very weak. i suggest that you give up now!

naturally, johnson was 204. louis was 195 lol! and ketchel is also considered an all-time great. johnson was toying with him and got careless. look what happened to ketchel about hmmm....5 seconds and 5 missing teeth later LOL!! louis was knocked down fare and square, and it took till the later rounds till louis finished him off. johnson wasn't even shaken up by that knockdown. louis was. your argument is very weak. i suggest that you give up now!
give the skill development of the fighters some credit here. billy conn and joe louis both had more skill than johnson. and i am not here to argue. its just my opinion that johnson had nothing on joe louis.

louis would probably win the rounds, but one good right from johnson and it's all over.

louis would probably win the rounds, but one good right from johnson and it's all over.

Jack Johnson was not known for his power. He had how ever awesome defensive skills and would be hell for any fighter.

Joe Louis had speed, power and possibly the greatest offense of all time. And his chin was not weak. He got knocked out twice. The first time at 22, after taking more than fifty hard right hands, clean on the chin. He was beaten up badly, and had to cave in sooner or later. It took almost 12 rounds. The last time he got stopped, he fought Rocky Marciano at age 37. Even at this age, with eroding skills, he managed to last more than 7 rounds against one of the hardest hitters in boxing history.

Jack Johnson would be schooled and badly beaten by Joe Louis. That is my opinion.

Joe Louis by ko5.

Jack Johnson was not known for his power. He had how ever awesome defensive skills and would be hell for any fighter.

Joe Louis had speed, power and possibly the greatest offense of all time. And his chin was not weak. He got knocked out twice. The first time at 22, after taking more than fifty hard right hands, clean on the chin. He was beaten up badly, and had to cave in sooner or later. It took almost 12 rounds. The last time he got stopped, he fought Rocky Marciano at age 37. Even at this age, with eroding skills, he managed to last more than 7 rounds against one of the hardest hitters in boxing history.

Jack Johnson would be schooled and badly beaten by Joe Louis. That is my opinion.

Joe Louis by ko5.
what do you mean he was not known for his power? ring magazine named him one of the 100 heavy hitters of all time! and look what he did to stanley ketchel. one punch and the guy was knocked cold. plus the guy who made the thread said with 1940s resources, meaning johnson would have been better.

what do you mean he was not known for his power? ring magazine named him one of the 100 heavy hitters of all time! and look what he did to stanley ketchel. one punch and the guy was knocked cold. plus the guy who made the thread said with 1940s resources, meaning johnson would have been better.

Ok, but he was not known for his power, in the same way as Foreman, Louis, Marciano, Tyson and Liston are known for their power. That was my point.

And no matter what, Johnson would not be able to knock out Louis.

Johnson was a defensive boxing genius, but I don't think his defense was any better than Louis' offensive skills. And given Louis' incredible handspeed, he would be too much for Johnson to handle. Louis would stop him, possibly hurt him bad.

Ok, but he was not known for his power, in the same way as Foreman, Louis, Marciano, Tyson and Liston are known for their power. That was my point.

And no matter what, Johnson would not be able to knock out Louis.

Johnson was a defensive boxing genius, but I don't think his defense was any better than Louis' offensive skills. And given Louis' incredible handspeed, he would be too much for Johnson to handle. Louis would stop him, possibly hurt him bad.
so you are saying that people like billy conn and ezzard charles hit harder than jack johnson

naturally, johnson was 204. louis was 195 lol! and ketchel is also considered an all-time great. johnson was toying with him and got careless. look what happened to ketchel about hmmm....5 seconds and 5 missing teeth later LOL!! louis was knocked down fare and square, and it took till the later rounds till louis finished him off. johnson wasn't even shaken up by that knockdown. louis was. your argument is very weak. i suggest that you give up now!

Ok well, Ketchel knocked Johnson down but then Johnson knocked Ketchel out. Why do you give Johnson credit for that when Joe Louis did the exact same thing with Conn.

Jack Johnson is great, but he couldn't handle the force of Joe Louis. Thought Johnson is a great defensive boxer, Joe's handspeed, and most of all, his body attack would weaken Johnson.

Joe Louis KO by 9.

louis would probably win the rounds, but one good right from johnson and it's all over.

One good right, or left, or uppercut from Joe Louis and it's over. If "one good right from Johnson" is enough, then I shudder to wonder what a Joe Louis right what do.

Get off of Ali's nuts you stupid jock.

Get off of Ali's nuts you stupid jock.
i'm not even talking about ali you ******! but you are so you must be on his nuts lol!

so you are saying that people like billy conn and ezzard charles hit harder than jack johnson

No, but what is your point? Louis defeated Conn twice and was coming back from a two year layoff when losing a DECISION to Charles.... They couldn't knock him out, and neither could Johnson.

look, my point is that billy conn a natural middleweight knocked louis down. johnson is definetely stronger than conn. so if conn knocked louis down, johnson could knock him out!

p.s.
dont i have da best signature eva?

look, my point is that billy conn a natural middleweight knocked louis down. johnson is definetely stronger than conn. so if conn knocked louis down, johnson could knock him out!

p.s.
dont i have da best signature eva?

I suppose we have to agree to disagree. In my book, Louis would destroy Johnson, and you obviously think Johnson would win.

Your sig is not bad at all! :)

all right. you stick to your guns, i'll stick to mine.

Your sig is not bad at all! :)
thanks. i do try! :p

Louis by TKO 1.

Hey you, the guy on Ali's jock...

It's funny how you say because Conn knocked down Louis that anyone bigger than Conn would KO him..

Then why exactly didn't Max Baer knock out Joe Louis??

Huh? Why?

Hey you, the guy on Ali's jock...

It's funny how you say because Conn knocked down Louis that anyone bigger than Conn would KO him..

Then why exactly didn't Max Baer knock out Joe Louis??

Huh? Why?
why do you keep saying that i'm on ali cock, when the only person mentioning ali is you? lol!

getting back to the reply, max baer is overated. he only looked good fighting bums like jack sharkey. johnson was a great defensive fighter and he hit hard.

p.s.
i suppose tha_greatest is not that great lol!

No matter how good anyone's defense is (I don't care if it's Norton, Johnson, etc.) Louis's offense will always win. You can't beat Louis by defense, you need a good offense. Louis would punish Johnson's body, then attack the head.

johnson only had good defense when his opponet threw 1 punch at a time louis would throw flurries and knock him out

johnson only had good defense when his opponet threw 1 punch at a time louis would throw flurries and knock him out
well if it is that easy then how come he could'nt throw flurries and knock marciano and charles out?

Because Marciano is a ****ing bull that charged at Louis and destroyed. Louis wasn't even a shell of his inner-self that fight. Even if Louis was in his prime, Marciano would still give him a tough fight. There's a huge difference between throwing flurries and trading punches with Marciano than Jack Johnson.

i believe it's easier to catch an unskilled slow marciano with flurries than a strong, fast, calculated boxer in jack johnson.

johnson was about as fast as louis

It was much easier to trade punches with Johnson than with Marciano. Marciano hit much harder than Johnson, and was a swarmer, therefore never letting up the pressure.

To quote you on this one, I believe it's much easier to defend yourself against light heavyweight Stanley Ketchel than a young, peaked Joe Louis.

It was much easier to trade punches with Johnson than with Marciano.
how? it is easy to trade punches with someone who doesn't care if he gets hit or not. marciano said himself that he just learns to take punches and that it is very easy to hit him. johnson is a defensive fighter. it is harder to trade puches as you say with someone who's main goal is to prevent from getting hit. louis' two-fisted attack would be shortly stiffled by johnson's top-notch defense.

johnson only had good defense when his opponet threw 1 punch at a time louis would throw flurries and knock him out
like i said earlier he only had good defense when they threw 1 punch at a time that was the style in his time period

like i said earlier he only had good defense when they threw 1 punch at a time that was the style in his time period
how do you know than when fighters threw flurries at him than he couldn't stop that too.

i dont know but they didnt really throw flurries back then they threw single punches

johnson is slightly bigger, and have better reflexes than louis. louis wins by ko.

johnson is slightly bigger, and have better reflexes than louis. louis wins by ko.
i agree.....

i agree.....
finally, someone who agrees with me.

Dude, actually, he's agreeing that Louis wins by KO. That's what you wrote. Unless, this entire time you change your mind and and say "Finally someone agrees with me!" when in reality, everyone has agreed with you.

johnson is slightly bigger, and have better reflexes than louis. louis wins by ko.

i meant to say that johnson wins by ko.

That's what I thought. Therefore, he didn't agree with you.

No matter what defense there is, there is no type of defense in the world that can stop Joe Louis's storming offense.

You really sound like you could use some Joe Louis fights. How about some?

these two are two of my favorite all time boxers, so i thought about this one alot. johnson was an amazing defensive fighter, after seeing him on film i respect his handspeed and skill. joe louis is the greatest boxer - puncher of all time, the only thing that stops him from being the most complete fighter of all time is his one weakness - shitty footwork. johnson is slightly bigger, but louis is much stronger, one combination could take u out. i think this fight would have been a beautiful thing to see because of the amazing skill of both men. the fight would be decided in the late rounds. i think louis wins by late stoppage, after seeing how hard it is to hit johnson in the head ( and it's nearly ****ing impossible from what i've seen ) louis wouls start hammering his body in about the 3rd or 4rth rd, after 5 or 6 rounds of this, maybe less, johnson would start slowing down. louis opens up on his chin and knocks him the **** out. remember: johnson had good power for a pure boxer who stands on his toes, joe had amazing power, the power to **** guys up with one or two shots. in the late rounds louis' power wins it for him

these two are two of my favorite all time boxers, so i thought about this one alot. johnson was an amazing defensive fighter, after seeing him on film i respect his handspeed and skill. joe louis is the greatest boxer - puncher of all time, the only thing that stops him from being the most complete fighter of all time is his one weakness - shitty footwork. johnson is slightly bigger, but louis is much stronger, one combination could take u out. i think this fight would have been a beautiful thing to see because of the amazing skill of both men. the fight would be decided in the late rounds. i think louis wins by late stoppage, after seeing how hard it is to hit johnson in the head ( and it's nearly ****ing impossible from what i've seen ) louis wouls start hammering his body in about the 3rd or 4rth rd, after 5 or 6 rounds of this, maybe less, johnson would start slowing down. louis opens up on his chin and knocks him the **** out. remember: johnson had good power for a pure boxer who stands on his toes, joe had amazing power, the power to **** guys up with one or two shots. in the late rounds louis' power wins it for him

I agree, but I have to point out that Joe Louis did not have "shitty footwork". Not at all. His footwork was excellent. He could cut off the ring very well. How ever, he did have slow feet, so he couldn't move around too quickly , but that is not to say his footwork was bad.

johnson would embarass louis.

louis would outpunch and outbox a pathetic johnson

louis would outpunch and outbox a pathetic johnson

how is he pathetic? the person who started this forum said if both of them lived in the 40s? so wouldn't that mean that johnson would be better? johnson would confuse, then crush a flatfooted louis.

Louis would go about the first 2 and a half rounds trying to hit Johnson's head, then realizes he can't hit it because Johnson's defense is too good. The next couple of rounds he hammers to Johnson's body. Johnson may have been good at defending the head, but against Joe Louis, you can't afford as much as 2 rounds of him punishing the body. Johnson would then go and try to defend the body, and Joe would let loose with the right crosses and left hooks to the head.

Joe Louis KO 9.

how is he pathetic? the person who started this forum said if both of them lived in the 40s? so wouldn't that mean that johnson would be better? johnson would confuse, then crush a flatfooted louis.
he's pathetic cuz he lost so many times in his prime

he's pathetic cuz he lost so many times in his prime

because he fought all top contending fighters. louis only fought two black fighters when getting the title.

because he fought all top contending fighters. louis only fought two black fighters when getting the title.

And what the **** difference did it make if they were black or not? Louis fought everyone that was put put in front of him. Louis fought every top contender at the time. By the way, 1 of the 2 black fighters he fought happens to be one of the greatest of all-time (Jersey Joe Walcott), whom he beat twice in the last 2 fights before his temporary retirement. That is definetly something you can take pride of.

By the way, you say Johnson would confuse Louis? How? Johnson really didn't have the style to confuse someone, though Louis was a very confusing fighter that could be a swarmer, a counter puncher, or a jabber.

And what the **** difference did it make if they were black or not? Louis fought everyone that was put put in front of him. Louis fought every top contender at the time. By the way, 1 of the 2 black fighters he fought happens to be one of the greatest of all-time (Jersey Joe Walcott), whom he beat twice in the last 2 fights before his temporary retirement. That is definetly something you can take pride of.

their were many deserving black heavyweight contenders who didn't get a title shot when louis was champion.

ezzard charles and jersey joe walcott did, even though he lost to charles cuz he was ageing

their were many deserving black heavyweight contenders who didn't get a title shot when louis was champion.

List some of them.

he cant because there were known besides charles and walcott

"none"........

if you watched the documentary, "shadowboxing: Journey of the african-american fighter" on espn classic, you would know that there was no appeal in two black fighters fighting, so louis only fought two black fighters out of the 25 that he fought once he had the title, and there were other top contending blacks at the time.

Who were the other top black heavyweight contenders? I have a fair amount of knowledge concerning the 1940's heavyweight scene and I don't recall any great black fighters that Louis ducked. There just weren't all that many top black heavyweights. The italians, irish and the jews pretty much dominated boxing at the time.

Don't forget that at one time the irish and jewish ghettos were just as rough and poor as any black neighborhood. The reason blacks dominate boxing today is that statistically they are the poorest minority. Boxing has always been a sport for the impoverished.

Who were the other top black heavyweight contenders? I have a fair amount of knowledge concerning the 1940's heavyweight scene and I don't recall any great black fighters that Louis ducked. There just weren't all that many top black heavyweights. The italians, irish and the jews pretty much dominated boxing at the time.

Don't forget that at one time the irish and jewish ghettos were just as rough and poor as any black neighborhood. The reason blacks dominate boxing today is that statistically they are the poorest minority. Boxing has always been a sport for the impoverished.

Good point.

johnson's chin and defense were awesome, as was his power, technique and heart. louis's power was the best at HW, his defense was very strong, and his stamina and heart were incredible, also. but louis's chin was vastly inferior (if thats how you spell it).

either johnson by UD or louis by KO. all louis has to do to win is get inside johnson's defense, and that is damn near impossible for some1 as sluggish (footwork wise) as louis.

johnson's chin and defense were awesome, as was his power, technique and heart. louis's power was the best at HW, his defense was very strong, and his stamina and heart were incredible, also. but louis's chin was vastly inferior (if thats how you spell it).

either johnson by UD or louis by KO. all louis has to do to win is get inside johnson's defense, and that is damn near impossible for some1 as sluggish (footwork wise) as louis.

good points there.

Johnson's defense was all his hands and his arms. He blocked and parried, and moved ocassionally, but he was not Muhammad Ali on his feet. To defend yourself from Joe Louis you need to be mobile and Johnson wasn't.

Ignoring whether or not Jack Johnson was a great heavyweight, he had a bad style for Louis, who was a master at mixing it up to the head and body with the grace and explosiveness of a leopard.

Hell I'll go out on a bit of a limb and proclaim that Joe Louis was the best combination puncher in heavyweight history, and you don't nullify combination punching by standing there, picking and parrying shots.

Who were the other top black heavyweight contenders?

There were a few black contenders during the war years (Sheppard, Bivins, Murray, etc.), but since the title was frozen during that time nobody would be stupid enough to criticize Louis for not fighting those guys.

Before that and earlier in Louis' reign, I can't think of even one black Heavyweight who was ranked amongst the very best. And after the war years the only black fighter that a small minority of people thought Louis ducked was Elmer 'Violent' Ray, which is an opinion that is apparently largely based on a comment Louis is quoted as saying when Ray wanted to spar with the champ (something along the lines of "Elmer doesn't know how to go easy in sparring and one of us might get hurt"). Moot point though, in a way, as Louis did eventually bust Ray up in an exhibition fight a couple of years later.

Johnson's defense was all his hands and his arms. He blocked and parried, and moved ocassionally, but he was not Muhammad Ali on his feet. To defend yourself from Joe Louis you need to be mobile and Johnson wasn't.

Ignoring whether or not Jack Johnson was a great heavyweight, he had a bad style for Louis, who was a master at mixing it up to the head and body with the grace and explosiveness of a leopard.

Hell I'll go out on a bit of a limb and proclaim that Joe Louis was the best combination puncher in heavyweight history, and you don't nullify combination punching by standing there, picking and parrying shots.
johnson wouldnt be able to pick off all of louis's shots with his elbows and hands, in the later rounds joe might ko him

Johnson's defense was all his hands and his arms. He blocked and parried, and moved ocassionally, but he was not Muhammad Ali on his feet. To defend yourself from Joe Louis you need to be mobile and Johnson wasn't.

Ignoring whether or not Jack Johnson was a great heavyweight, he had a bad style for Louis, who was a master at mixing it up to the head and body with the grace and explosiveness of a leopard.

Hell I'll go out on a bit of a limb and proclaim that Joe Louis was the best combination puncher in heavyweight history, and you don't nullify combination punching by standing there, picking and parrying shots.

That's no limb, I totally agree that Louis is the best combination puncher in history.

joe was the best flurrier (if thats a word)

joe was the best flurrier (if thats a word)

why don't you watch muhammad ali vs cleveland williams and see if that doesn't change your mind.

Ali was the better flurrier, he threw those quickass arm shots. Joe Louis threw combinations.

Ali was the better flurrier, he threw those quickass arm shots. Joe Louis threw combinations.

they both threw combos, just that joe's were harder, and maybe a little slower so you can actually see that they were combinations. ali's punches were so fast you thought they were wild shots.

ive seen that williams fight (good fight by the way) but if you've seen louis vs. walcott II you would notice that when joe knocked him out he wasnt even aiming he was just threw wild punches in bunches

Joe Louis by unanimous decision is my pick.