View Full Version : Is Oscar De la Hoya a top 20 ATG WW?


jrosales13
04-21-2011, 06:32 PM
I'm not sure, the WW division is historically one of the greatest, deepest, most talented division of all time.

It has fighters like

SRR
Armstrong
Leonard
Gavilan
McLarnin
"Barbados" Walcott
Ross
Griffith
Nopoles
Hearns
Walker
Basillo
Britton
Lewis
Corbett III
Whitaker
Burley
Rodriguez
Ryan
Zivic.

That are 20 fighters that I would say were greater than Oscar at WW. And, then you still have guys like Tito, Duran, Cokes, Cuevas, and Curry who I feel were better WWs than Oscar. Now Oscar might be better in a P4P ATG ranking. But, just at WW I don't think he should rank higher than these guys. If you look at just resume and accomplishment Oscar doesn't really rank up there at WW. He's was a good fighter. And, at the same it's not fair to Oscar because 147 was his 3rd, 4th weight-class. While most of the guys that I named WW is there first weight-class.

I thought Oscar was phenomenal at 135 and 140. I thought at those 2 weight-class he had the perfect combination of speed, power, strength, and size. At 147? Not so much.

Thoughts?

Barnburner
04-21-2011, 06:46 PM
Excellent Post all round, agree with all.

IronDanHamza
04-21-2011, 07:04 PM
You're "not sure" are you, Jro? What happened to "You're dead to me" comment with me having him Top 20 :lol1: Just kidding, bro.

Like I said, I have him #17 or #18. Generally between 15 and 20.

I think it's quite hard to dispute he is a Top 20 ATG WW personally, he definitely is in my book.

RubenSonny
04-21-2011, 07:32 PM
I wouldn't put him in the top 20 but I don't think its insane, if you have him in the top 10 you probably bought 'ven a mi' on single....

CarlosG815
04-21-2011, 07:59 PM
I wouldn't put him in the top 20 but I don't think its insane, if you have him in the top 10 you probably bought 'ven a mi' on single....

What is your top 20?

RubenSonny
04-21-2011, 08:19 PM
What is your top 20?

1. Ray Robinson
2. Joe Walcott
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Ray Leonard
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Emile Griffith
7. Jose Napoles
8. Barney Ross
9. Jimmy Mclarnin
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Jack Britton
12. Luis Rodriguez
13. Mickey Walker
14. Charley Burley
15. Carmen Basillio
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Ted 'Kid' Lewis
18. Fritzie Zivic
19. Tommy Ryan
20. Young Corbette III

Didn't put to much thought into the order of 11-20 but they are all greater than DLH at WW IMO, I'd like to see your list now Carlos...

CarlosG815
04-21-2011, 08:45 PM
1. Ray Robinson
2. Joe Walcott
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Ray Leonard
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Emile Griffith
7. Jose Napoles
8. Barney Ross
9. Jimmy Mclarnin
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Jack Britton
12. Luis Rodriguez
13. Mickey Walker
14. Charley Burley
15. Carmen Basillio
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Ted 'Kid' Lewis
18. Fritzie Zivic
19. Tommy Ryan
20. Young Corbette III

Didn't put to much thought into the order of 11-20 but they are all greater than DLH at WW IMO, I'd like to see your list now Carlos...

I don't make lists, I was just curious as to what logic you were using to disregard him as a top 20. I am now wondering how much thought went into that top 20 you just put together....

RubenSonny
04-21-2011, 09:06 PM
I don't make lists, I was just curious as to what logic you were using to disregard him as a top 20. I am now wondering how much thought went into that top 20 you just put together....

.........................:poke:

jrosales13
04-21-2011, 09:36 PM
1. Ray Robinson
2. Joe Walcott
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Ray Leonard
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Emile Griffith
7. Jose Napoles
8. Barney Ross
9. Jimmy Mclarnin
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Jack Britton
12. Luis Rodriguez
13. Mickey Walker
14. Charley Burley
15. Carmen Basillio
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Ted 'Kid' Lewis
18. Fritzie Zivic
19. Tommy Ryan
20. Young Corbette III

Didn't put to much thought into the order of 11-20 but they are all greater than DLH at WW IMO, I'd like to see your list now Carlos...

That's exactly how I feel.

RubenSonny
04-21-2011, 09:41 PM
Basically, you should accept that you know nothing, your perfectly sensible list made that clear. Let the master teach you. How to go get Sonny a bagel and coffee.

You tit, I nearly woke up my nephews in the next room from laughter :rofl::rofl:

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 10:11 AM
You see, mr. Ruben doesn't like explaining anything, since everything he says on this matter is biased as fak.:rolleyes: So he got no explanation, lest he says the truth.

No thought went into that list, I am sure of that. He has just taken another list and plucked off names. I would venture to say he knows next to nothing of 90% of the boxers on that list.

In all honesty, 99% of this forum does not know enough to even make a list, as there are so many fighters we know nothing about.

The_Demon
04-22-2011, 10:14 AM
He would be between 15-20 for me,i can see a small case for him being a few places higher but any higher than that simply isnt logical,the WW division is just too deep,he isnt a top 10 ATG at the weight

pacquia0
04-22-2011, 10:26 AM
Ability wise I think he is.

His opponents were very good undefeated Trinidad, Quartey and Mosley. Whitaker was past prime but still a decent fighter. Very few people on that list would go through his resume at welterweight undefeated. Even in his losses he achieved alot. Oscar was the only one to go the distance with Tito and be competitive, i thought he won. Quartey was a very good fighter with his jab and had good power. Mosley was a beast and 10 years later would be the #1 guy at this weight and was on a big KO streak.

Some people might not rate him as a top 20 ATG ww resume wise because those fights were close so people could have him losing all those fights.

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 10:35 AM
I would have liked to have seen him fight Vernon Forrest. I think Forrest could have beat DLH, he was an incredible talent.

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 11:34 AM
I believe Oscar is a top 10 welterweight as well. Oscar was brilliant, and phenomenal to watch. He easily outboxed Tito Trinidad and really made him look amateur. His boxing skills were amazing and he has one of the top resumes Even though he had bogus decisions against him vs Trinidad and Mosley, nobody can deny that his resume is stacked and there aren't many fighters who can come close to fighting the level of competition that he did - despite him getting L's (undeservedly so even).

:rofl::rofl::rofl: sorry to dig this one up Carlos but your pathetic agenda is so transparent its embarrassing, you've claimed Oscar to be a top 10 WW with no list. Its funny you've criticised my list and made wild accusations about me but have failed to say anything of substance, who on my list shouldn't be there? What is wrong with my list? And I'd like to see your top 10 WW list or you are full of ****.......

I'll wait...

GJC
04-22-2011, 12:25 PM
1. Ray Robinson
2. Joe Walcott
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Ray Leonard
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Emile Griffith
7. Jose Napoles
8. Barney Ross
9. Jimmy Mclarnin
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Jack Britton
12. Luis Rodriguez
13. Mickey Walker
14. Charley Burley
15. Carmen Basillio
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Ted 'Kid' Lewis
18. Fritzie Zivic
19. Tommy Ryan
20. Young Corbette III

Didn't put to much thought into the order of 11-20 but they are all greater than DLH at WW IMO, I'd like to see your list now Carlos...

This list highlights just how deep the division has been

jrosales13
04-22-2011, 12:32 PM
This list highlights just how deep the division has been

It really is, that's why it's very hard for me to really see Oscar in the top 20 ATG WW.

Top 25-30? Yes, he is. But, top 20? I just don't know.

Having him in the top 10 is just absurd.

IronDanHamza
04-22-2011, 12:44 PM
This list highlights just how deep the division has been

Where do you rank Oscar at WW, GJC?

You have some of the better lists I have seen per weight class on this website.

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 12:52 PM
Duran should be ranked in front of Oscar at WW too IMO.

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 01:03 PM
No thought went into that list, I am sure of that. He has just taken another list and plucked off names. I would venture to say he knows next to nothing of 90% of the boxers on that list.

In all honesty, 99% of this forum does not know enough to even make a list, as there are so many fighters we know nothing about.

I know enough about those fighters to argue that they are better than Oscar, I'd be more then happy to debate it with you if you can tell me which ones you think he is greater than and explain why.........

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 01:06 PM
:rofl::rofl::rofl: sorry to dig this one up Carlos but your pathetic agenda is so transparent its embarrassing, you've claimed Oscar to be a top 10 WW with no list. Its funny you've criticised my list and made wild accusations about me but have failed to say anything of substance, who on my list shouldn't be there? What is wrong with my list? And I'd like to see your top 10 WW list or you are full of ****.......

I'll wait...

I do think he's a top 10 but I can not make a list to justify that, as I do not have the knowledge. To me, he is a top 10 but I can not say that with any certainty, as you have with your pilfered list...

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 01:17 PM
I do think he's a top 10 but I can not make a list to justify that, as I do not have the knowledge. To me, he is a top 10 but I can not say that with any certainty, as you have with your pilfered list...

How is it a piffered list? Whats wrong with my list? I've actually posted the top 10 to that list twice before. The basis for you having him in the top 10 is that you really like him, your just an ignorant fool and you made a claim with nothing to back it up, yet you criticise my list....I knew you were full of ****.

GJC
04-22-2011, 01:29 PM
Where do you rank Oscar at WW, GJC?

You have some of the better lists I have seen per weight class on this website.
I'll have to have a play with a list but I doubt he wouldn't figure any higher than the low teens more likely 25 to 30.
Thing to look at was in his era roughly was he the best welter, better than Trinidad and Mosley etc? Even if you say yes its not going to be by a big margin and they don't register on Ruben's list either. Throw in Benetiz, Duran etc and to not even crack the top 30 is no big shame. Thinking h2h I look at fighters like Carlos Palomino who most won't even think about but who I think h2h would give DLH a world of trouble. Ruben's list has a few names on it i'd probably lose or juggle with but as a bench mark it just shows that you are not a DLH hater (and he does get a lot of unwarranted stick) not to have him even top 30 at welter.

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 01:32 PM
How is it a piffered list? Whats wrong with my list? I've actually posted the top 10 to that list twice before. The basis for you having him in the top 10 is that you really like him, your just an ignorant fool and you made a claim with nothing to back it up, yet you criticise my list....I knew you were full of ****.

I am an ignorant fool yet you have posted a list with such certainty although you know very little of many fighters and zilch of others. You are in no position to make a list, and neither am I, yet the difference between you and I (The "fool") is that I realize that I do not have the capacity to make a list.

Pipe down, son. You are getting too upset over nothing.

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 01:42 PM
I am an ignorant fool yet you have posted a list with such certainty although you know very little of many fighters and zilch of others. You are in no position to make a list, and neither am I, yet the difference between you and I (The "fool") is that I realize that I do not have the capacity to make a list.

Pipe down, son. You are getting too upset over nothing.

:rofl:@ you trying to salvage some credibility. The thing is there wasn't certainty, I'm not mad at anyone with him in the top 20, I just said I wouldn't do it myself. In an attempt to expose me, you asked for a list because I had made a claim on Oscars ranking, and I thought okay and provided a list, you criticized my list without any decent argument. I dug up a quote of your making a claim on Oscars ranking and you failed to provide a list and justify your ranking.

A summarized series of events, for all to see in this thread :)

Pastrano
04-22-2011, 01:48 PM
I would have liked to have seen him fight Vernon Forrest. I think Forrest could have beat DLH, he was an incredible talent.

You said it there! How I never thought of that matchup I don't know. Gr8 matchup!:boxing: Very tough fight for Oscar, he'd have to box and move a lot. But I think he could pull it off, unless he got hit with too many big shots from Vernon.

-Huey-
04-22-2011, 01:48 PM
I agree wit top 20...he could have been greater if he'd gotten the much deserved nod against Shane, Tito, and if he'd beaten B-hop. He was a hell of a fighter, *******s will disagree because they didn't watch boxing in the 90's, Oscar is a legend! This B.S about him losing "all his big fights" is stupid!

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 01:51 PM
I agree wit top 20...he could have been greater if he'd gotten the much deserved nod against Shane, Tito, and if he'd beaten B-hop. He was a hell of a fighter, *******s will disagree because they didn't watch boxing in the 90's, Oscar is a legend! This B.S about him losing "all his big fights" is stupid!

Shane and B-hop fights weren't at welterweight, so it wouldn't change anything.

Pastrano
04-22-2011, 01:55 PM
Shane and B-hop fights weren't at welterweight, so it wouldn't change anything.

The first Shane fight was, duh.

jrosales13
04-22-2011, 01:55 PM
I agree wit top 20...he could have been greater if he'd gotten the much deserved nod against Shane, Tito, and if he'd beaten B-hop. He was a hell of a fighter, *******s will disagree because they didn't watch boxing in the 90's, Oscar is a legend! This B.S about him losing "all his big fights" is stupid!

:lol1: @ this post.

Is that a shot at me?

I'm assuming you mean the 2nd Mosley fight right? If so, that fight was at 154 how would that affect his 147 ranking? Because, the first fight with Mosley was at 147 and there is no way in hell Oscar deserved the nod in that fight.

And, another LOL @ "if he'd beaten B-hop". Well damn, if Oba Carr had beaten Tito, Oscar, and Quartey he would have been a HOF'er. If my Aunt had a dick she would be my uncle. I mean what is this about?

Really? "IF" he won?

jrosales13
04-22-2011, 01:56 PM
The first Shane fight was, duh.

But, Oscar didn't deserve the nod. He lost that fight clearly. It was close but clear. You can't even argue for a draw.

Pastrano
04-22-2011, 02:01 PM
But, Oscar didn't deserve the nod. He lost that fight clearly. It was close but clear. You can't even argue for a draw.

What nod, you mean SD? No, that fight was very very close, no doubt. I guess Shane did win, but not more than by a point.

jrosales13
04-22-2011, 02:10 PM
What nod, you mean SD? No, that fight was very very close, no doubt. I guess Shane did win, but not more than by a point.

That's as close as you can get it. It's by a point. Because, Shane was the clear winner. You can't even justify a draw. If that fight had of been declared a draw it would have been a robbery. Because, there was one true clear winner in that fight. Close but clear.

joseph5620
04-22-2011, 02:12 PM
That's as close as you can get it. It's by a point. Because, Shane was the clear winner. You can't even justify a draw. If that fight had of been declared a draw it would have been a robbery. Because, there was one true clear winner in that fight. Close but clear.

If there was any doubt in that fight Mosley completely dominated Delahoya in the 12th. And prior to that round, Mosley wwas winning the fight. Anybody who claims "it could have been a draw" or "one point" is just reaching with the usual agenda.

IronDanHamza
04-22-2011, 02:14 PM
What nod, you mean SD? No, that fight was very very close, no doubt. I guess Shane did win, but not more than by a point.

Come on, the first fight wasn't that close, at all ,really. Close-ish is how I would describe it, but Shane was clearly and rightfully the winner.

However, the second fight, I felt Oscar did enough to win. But since that was at 154 it doesn't mean anything in this conversation.

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 02:20 PM
What nod, you mean SD? No, that fight was very very close, no doubt. I guess Shane did win, but not more than by a point.

Sanchez-Cowdell was an SD............

Walt Liquor
04-22-2011, 02:50 PM
I'm Walt Liquor and I approve this thread.



Enjoying the smacking around going on.


WTF does "*******s" have to do with Oscar's ATG WW rankings?

Pastrano
04-22-2011, 02:52 PM
I'm Walt Liquor and I approve this thread.



Enjoying the smacking around going on.


WTF does "*******s" have to do with Oscar's ATG WW rankings?
Your av girl is hot.:D

Walt Liquor
04-22-2011, 03:54 PM
Your av girl is hot.:D

another poster figured out who she is....elin grindemyr from Sweden.

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 06:34 PM
:rofl:@ you trying to salvage some credibility. The thing is there wasn't certainty, I'm not mad at anyone with him in the top 20, I just said I wouldn't do it myself. In an attempt to expose me, you asked for a list because I had made a claim on Oscars ranking, and I thought okay and provided a list, you criticized my list without any decent argument. I dug up a quote of your making a claim on Oscars ranking and you failed to provide a list and justify your ranking.

A summarized series of events, for all to see in this thread :)

Salvage credibility to who? You? I have forgotten more about this sport and fighters in the last 6 months than you have ever known. What you have done is just pilfered 20 welter's from other lists and plugged them into a list, and I am quite certain that you could NOT give justification for each fighter being on that list and why they're in the position in which you have placed them, and why another fighter is not in that spot. You do not know anything of the fighters that you've listed, and I would venture to say that if there weren't pre-existing lists available online, you would have no idea where to even start. Please don't kid yourself and say that you could, because you will only look more foolish.

I do not make lists, but to me, DLH would be top 10 because I think he was amazing and when I watch him fight, I can't pick many fighters over him - he was a great and one of the last of the throwback fighters, as there aren't many guys like him today who are willing to fight anyone and put up a hell of a fight, and he's always been a class act out of the ring and even in defeat.

And Duran is better than DLH at welter? Well I believe Oscar would no mas his ass back to Panama, as he was clearly the far better fighter at the higher weights.

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 06:36 PM
That's as close as you can get it. It's by a point. Because, Shane was the clear winner. You can't even justify a draw. If that fight had of been declared a draw it would have been a robbery. Because, there was one true clear winner in that fight. Close but clear.

I too had DLH losing the first fight clearly. Anything but a win for Mosley would have been robbery, this is true.

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 07:08 PM
Salvage credibility to who? You?

No to everyone who has seen you get embarrassed in this thread.

I have forgotten more about this sport and fighters in the last 6 months than you have ever known.

Really, could you elaborate on this claim.....

What you have done is just pilfered 20 welter's from other lists and plugged them into a list, and I am quite certain that you could NOT give justification for each fighter being on that list and why they're in the position in which you have placed them, and why another fighter is not in that spot.

Yeah I already said 11-20 didn't have much thought going into it, but I think they are all greater than Oscar at welterweight and I can argue that, but I also said I wouldn't be mad at anyone with them in their top 20....

You do not know anything of the fighters that you've listed, and I would venture to say that if there weren't pre-existing lists available online, you would have no idea where to even start. Please don't kid yourself and say that you could, because you will only look more foolish.

I have work from lists all the time and look where fighters are ranked and look at their careers in detail to choose where I rank them, the top 10 is solid and I have a higher ranking than most do for Walcott because I give him extra credit from much bigger men. Another example, I rate Hearns higher than most do because I hold Cuevas win in such a high regard and I don't feel the loss to Leonard is particularly detrimental to his place. I'm not afraid to admit I look at others peoples lists, of course I do and I doubt there are many that don't, it doesn't mean I'm incapable of independent thought. I think its pretty evident that I'm an independent thinker since I've debated with a lot of posters and never ducked anyone.

I do not make lists, but to me, DLH would be top 10 because I think he was amazing and when I watch him fight, I can't pick many fighters over him - he was a great and one of the last of the throwback fighters, as there aren't many guys like him today who are willing to fight anyone and put up a hell of a fight, and he's always been a class act out of the ring and even in defeat.

Generic bullcrap that proves your full of ****....

And Duran is better than DLH at welter? Well I believe Oscar would no mas his ass back to Panama, as he was clearly the far better fighter at the higher weights.

:rofl::rofl::rofl: Durans win over Leonard (at welterweight) is one the single greatest wins of all time, coupled with his excellent and underrated win against Palomino, its not hard to make an argument that his welterweight resume is better, stop embarrassing yourself. I don't know what your definition of higher weights is but I think Duran has a greater resume from 147-160 than Oscar, no need to **** on a legend to make your boy look better, just shows how desperate you are.

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 07:34 PM
No to everyone who has seen you get embarrassed in this thread.



Really, could you elaborate on this claim.....



Yeah I already said 11-20 didn't have much thought going into it, but I think they are all greater than Oscar at welterweight and I can argue that, but I also said I wouldn't be mad at anyone with them in their top 20....



I have work from lists all the time and look where fighters are ranked and look at their careers in detail to choose where I rank them, the top 10 is solid and I have a higher ranking than most do for Walcott because I give him extra credit from much bigger men. Another example, I rate Hearns higher than most do because I hold Cuevas win in such a high regard and I don't feel the loss to Leonard is particularly detrimental to his place. I'm not afraid to admit I look at others peoples lists, of course I do and I doubt there are many that don't, it doesn't mean I'm incapable of independent thought. I think its pretty evident that I'm an independent thinker since I've debated with a lot of posters and never ducked anyone.



Generic bullcrap that proves your full of ****....



Durans win over Leonard (at welterweight) is one the single greatest wins of all time, coupled with his excellent and underrated win against Palomino, its not hard to make an argument that his welterweight resume is better, stop embarrassing yourself. I don't know what your definition of higher weights is but I think Duran has a greater resume from 147-160 than Oscar, no need to **** on a legend to make your boy look better, just shows how desperate you are.

The more you talk the more obvious it is that you have no business making lists. Nobody is ****ting on Duran, but his status over lightweight isn't anything to clamor over.

Go pilfer some more names of fighters you know nothing about off another man's list and make a top 50 for us :loser: :lol1:

Steak
04-22-2011, 07:39 PM
The more you talk the more obvious it is that you have no business making lists. Nobody is ****ting on Duran, but his status over lightweight isn't anything to clamor over.

Go pilfer some more names of fighters you know nothing about off another man's list and make a top 50 for us :loser: :lol1:
There are very few wins at WW that are better than beating a prime Leonard. Can you name any?

not to mention his wins over Palomino, Brooks, and Nsubungu were all quality as well.

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 07:45 PM
There are very few wins at WW that are better than beating a prime Leonard. Can you name any?

not to mention his wins over Palomino, Brooks, and Nsubungu were all quality as well.

I'm not saying that his win over Leonard was not a good win, but there is no question that there are very man welterweights who are better than Duran, despite this win. His win over Palomino is decent because of the name, but there is no question that Palomino was past it and his career was all but over before he even stepped into the ring with Duran. It's kind of like Pacquiao's win over Oscar. Pacquiao is a great fighter, Oscar was a great fighter in his prime, but they met at the wrong time.

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 07:49 PM
The more you talk the more obvious it is that you have no business making lists. Nobody is ****ting on Duran, but his status over lightweight isn't anything to clamor over.

Go pilfer some more names of fighters you know nothing about off another man's list and make a top 50 for us :loser: :lol1:

^^^This is whats known as a cop out...

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 07:56 PM
^^^This is whats known as a cop out...

I am not argumentative and I do not want to waste time going back and forth with a kid who admittedly picked names off a list, read a wikipedia on a fighter, and then slopped them into a list and based their ranking on how much he liked the way their name looked.

What is the point, and what do I have to gain by going back and forth with you? You have no business making lists and have openly admitted to just sticking names wherever with little thought.

There is no need to cop out, I just don't have the energy. You are in the same class as Stereotype, you just run with the general consensus. Most of the time I am posting from my phone and do not take the time to double check so everything is from memory and knowledge, unlike you who I'm sure just wiki's stuff. Nice try at sounding knowledgeable but I see right through you and I'm sure others do as well.

:dance:

Steak
04-22-2011, 07:59 PM
I'm not saying that his win over Leonard was not a good win, but there is no question that there are very man welterweights who are better than Duran, despite this win. His win over Palomino is decent because of the name, but there is no question that Palomino was past it and his career was all but over before he even stepped into the ring with Duran. It's kind of like Pacquiao's win over Oscar. Pacquiao is a great fighter, Oscar was a great fighter in his prime, but they met at the wrong time.
Palomino was in far better condition than DLH. I predicted a win for Pacquiao because DLH looked like crap against Forbes, and Palomino looked good against Benitez less than half a year before he lost to Duran, and Palomino was still clearly a top fighter at the time.

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 08:04 PM
Palomino was in far better condition than DLH. I predicted a win for Pacquiao because DLH looked like crap against Forbes, and Palomino looked good against Benitez less than half a year before he lost to Duran, and Palomino was still clearly a top fighter at the time.

No question about that, I can't think of many instances where a fighter was in as bad of condition as Oscar was before his fight with Pacquiao. I was watching an interview that Oscar did with Dish network before the Pacquiao fight and when asked about going to 147 he was saying how "It's going to be tough... It's going to be really tough...." Just looking at him in that interview, it was clear that he was going to get destroyed. A 35 year old man who walks around at 170 cutting down to 147.... He looked awful in the interview.

Palomino to me didn't look too great against Benitez and had they fought a few years earlier I think he would have beat him, as I think that Palomino is the better fighter. IIRC Palomino would retire after his loss to Duran. I don't think he had it left in him anymore going into that fight, as Palomino was the better welterweight.

Ziggy Stardust
04-22-2011, 08:10 PM
If my Aunt had a dick she would be my uncle.

I spit my coffee when I read that :hahahaha9: Good to see you posting over here.....make it a habit :grin9:

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
04-22-2011, 08:14 PM
I'll have to have a play with a list but I doubt he wouldn't figure any higher than the low teens more likely 25 to 30.
Thing to look at was in his era roughly was he the best welter, better than Trinidad and Mosley etc? Even if you say yes its not going to be by a big margin and they don't register on Ruben's list either. Throw in Benetiz, Duran etc and to not even crack the top 30 is no big shame. Thinking h2h I look at fighters like Carlos Palomino who most won't even think about but who I think h2h would give DLH a world of trouble. Ruben's list has a few names on it i'd probably lose or juggle with but as a bench mark it just shows that you are not a DLH hater (and he does get a lot of unwarranted stick) not to have him even top 30 at welter.

I have De La Hoya in my top-20 BUT there's a big caveat to that: If a fighter who was great at Welter but who spent most of his career or was at his best in another division, say Middle or Lightweight, then I don't rank them at Welter.....that means Oscar isn't competing for spots against the likes of Whitaker, Duran, Chavez, Langford, ect.

Poet

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 08:35 PM
I am not argumentative

:lol1: you clearly made your intial comment to start an argument.

and I do not want to waste time going back and forth with a kid who admittedly picked names off a list,

I didn't pick names in a list, I look at lists all the time and research into them and decide how I think a list should be.

read a wikipedia on a fighter, and then slopped them into a list and based their ranking on how much he liked the way their name looked.

I haven't once used wikipedia to make a list.

What is the point, and what do I have to gain by going back and forth with you? You have no business making lists and have openly admitted to just sticking names wherever with little thought.

You haven't actually made one solid criticism about my rankings just a bunch of sweeping generalisations and assumptions you have no proof of, the only reason this started is because you hug Oscars nuts.

There is no need to cop out, I just don't have the energy.

Yup, you're full of ****.

You are in the same class as Stereotype, you just run with the general consensus.

Sure, we both disagree with your views on one of your favourite fighters....

And I've debated with many respected posters so.......

Most of the time I am posting from my phone and do not take the time to double check so everything is from memory and knowledge,

unlike you who I'm sure just wiki's stuff.

Another bull**** accusation from you, with absolutely nothing to back it up..what a surprise.

Nice try at sounding knowledgeable but I see right through you and I'm sure others do as well.

Anyone with any sense can see how much of a fool you are from this thread, if you disagree go make a poll about it. At the end of the day we both made claims on Oscars ranking at welterweight and both asked for lists, but one of us came up short....

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 08:42 PM
I spit my coffee when I read that :hahahaha9: Good to see you posting over here.....make it a habit :grin9:

Poet

Co-sign.....

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 08:42 PM
Sure, we both disagree with your views on one of your favourite fighters....


Yup, and with about as much knowledge to back it up as my 1 year old pup. Go make some more lists :bukkake:

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 08:49 PM
Yup, and with about as much knowledge to back it up as my 1 year old pup. Go make some more lists :bukkake:

You are a special guy...:)

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 08:55 PM
You are a special guy...:)

Bert Sugar has a top 100, go move some guys around and call it your top 100 :haha::haha:

Wild Blue Yonda
04-22-2011, 08:57 PM
You can make the argument, but I think it's a little bit of a stretch, personally. It's not out-of-the-question material, but I wouldn't mount the case.

It's one of the deepest (& some would say, the deepest) divisions ever, historically. This is somewhat conjecture too, but I consider Jr. Welter, not Welter, De La Hoya's very best weight.

bojangles1987
04-22-2011, 09:04 PM
You just can't put him there. There's not really a defining win over a great fighter at welterweight for Oscar. He fought them all, but doesn't have one great win over one of the best welterweights of that time. Arguably lost to Whitaker, arguably lost to Quartey, Chavez was past it, there's no defining win.

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 09:07 PM
You just can't put him there. There's not really a defining win over a great fighter at welterweight for Oscar. He fought them all, but doesn't have one great win over one of the best welterweights of that time. Arguably lost to Whitaker, arguably lost to Quartey, Chavez was past it, there's no defining win.

haha love the new sig, man. I don't think the Whitaker fight was an arguable loss, and I think Chavez was better than he gets credit for in that fight...

bojangles1987
04-22-2011, 09:11 PM
haha love the new sig, man. I don't think the Whitaker fight was an arguable loss, and I think Chavez was better than he gets credit for in that fight...

I had the sig going way further than that, but there's a character limit. So I had to stop at Prescott, even though he's lost.

A lot of people thought Whitaker beat Oscar in that fight, and it was definitely close enough to be debatable. And Chavez is a nice win, but he was definitely past it. If he could have definitely beaten Whitaker, Quartey, or Trinidad, he would have a much better argument here. Not horrible to put him top 20 I guess but there are so many great fighters at welterweight.

crold1
04-22-2011, 09:13 PM
I had the sig going way further than that, but there's a character limit. So I had to stop at Prescott, even though he's lost.

A lot of people thought Whitaker beat Oscar in that fight, and it was definitely close enough to be debatable. And Chavez is a nice win, but he was definitely past it. If he could have definitely beaten Whitaker, Quartey, or Trinidad, he would have a much better argument here. Not horrible to put him top 20 I guess but there are so many great fighters at welterweight.

No. It's horrible. He wasn't.

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 09:23 PM
I had the sig going way further than that, but there's a character limit. So I had to stop at Prescott, even though he's lost.

A lot of people thought Whitaker beat Oscar in that fight, and it was definitely close enough to be debatable. And Chavez is a nice win, but he was definitely past it. If he could have definitely beaten Whitaker, Quartey, or Trinidad, he would have a much better argument here. Not horrible to put him top 20 I guess but there are so many great fighters at welterweight.

I think that Whitaker, and Quartey were close yet wins for Oscar, much in the same way the fight with Mosley was close, yet a clear win for Oscar.

He did get the L against Trinidad, but again, I think that was a pretty clear win for Oscar and it was not as close as the aforementioned fights were, it was a blatant robbery.

IronDanHamza
04-22-2011, 09:24 PM
I'll have to have a play with a list but I doubt he wouldn't figure any higher than the low teens more likely 25 to 30.
Thing to look at was in his era roughly was he the best welter, better than Trinidad and Mosley etc? Even if you say yes its not going to be by a big margin and they don't register on Ruben's list either. Throw in Benetiz, Duran etc and to not even crack the top 30 is no big shame. Thinking h2h I look at fighters like Carlos Palomino who most won't even think about but who I think h2h would give DLH a world of trouble. Ruben's list has a few names on it i'd probably lose or juggle with but as a bench mark it just shows that you are not a DLH hater (and he does get a lot of unwarranted stick) not to have him even top 30 at welter.

Oh I agree, by all means.

I dislike Oscar myself personally. Was never a fan of him.

I personally have him between 15 and 20 but the more I think about it the more I think he could easily be between 20 and 25. But, I would imagine I personally would put him between 15 and 20.

crold1
04-22-2011, 09:27 PM
Oh I agree, by all means.

I dislike Oscar myself personally. Was never a fan of him.

I personally have him between 15 and 20 but the more I think about it the more I think he could easily be between 20 and 25. But, I would imagine I personally would put him between 15 and 20.

You're still being generous.

IronDanHamza
04-22-2011, 09:33 PM
You're still being generous.

Maybe I am.

I don't have a devised list past #10.

But I personally don't think it's that bad to consider him around the tail end of the teens.

JMO.

crold1
04-22-2011, 09:40 PM
Maybe I am.

I don't have a devised list past #10.

But I personally don't think it's that bad to consider him around the tail end of the teens.

JMO.

When you factor in who all rocked it at Welter it is. I don't have him in my top 25. I don't have Cokes either and Cokes belongs before Oscar. Guys like Lloyd Honeyghan, Simon Brown, Buddy McGirt, Marlon Starling....all of them have as much an argument with better, decisive wins in contemporary times alone.

My 11-25: http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-welterweights-all-time-11-25--23408

Top 10: http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-welterweights-all-time-top-ten--23544

IronDanHamza
04-22-2011, 09:47 PM
When you factor in who all rocked it at Welter it is. I don't have him in my top 25. I don't have Cokes either and Cokes belongs before Oscar. Guys like Lloyd Honeyghan, Simon Brown, Buddy McGirt, Marlon Starling....all of them have as much an argument with better, decisive wins in contemporary times alone.

My 11-25: http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-welterweights-all-time-11-25--23408

Top 10: http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-welterweights-all-time-top-ten--23544

It's just my opinion, bro.

I have read your lists thoroughly on many occasions and have the utmost respect for your opinion.

I just personally would say Oscar is possibly a Top 20 ATG WW.

Is it clear cut? Now I think about it, absolutely not.

But is it up for debate? I think so. Atleast in my opinion it is.

Again, I don't even like Oscar, at all. But, I just personally see him as a possible Top 20 ATG WW. You don't, I'm absolutely fine with that. All I'm saying is it isn't abserd to suggest he might be, in my opinon.

crold1
04-22-2011, 09:49 PM
It's just my opinion, bro.

I have read your lists thoroughly on many occasions and have the utmost respect for your opinion.

I just personally would say Oscar is possibly a Top 20 ATG WW.

Is it clear cut? Now I think about it, absolutely not.

But is it up for debate? I think so. Atleast in my opinion it is.

Again, I don't even like Oscar, at all. But, I just personally see him as a possible Top 20 ATG WW. You don't, I'm absolutely fine with that. All I'm saying is it isn't abserd to suggest he might be, in my opinon.

Just supplying opinion back dude. I like boxing. ;)

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 09:51 PM
When you factor in who all rocked it at Welter it is. I don't have him in my top 25. I don't have Cokes either and Cokes belongs before Oscar. Guys like Lloyd Honeyghan, Simon Brown, Buddy McGirt, Marlon Starling....all of them have as much an argument with better, decisive wins in contemporary times alone.

My 11-25: http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-welterweights-all-time-11-25--23408

Top 10: http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-welterweights-all-time-top-ten--23544

Wow, I haven't seen those names in a long while. Good mentions. Obviously I think Oscar is the greater fighter, but those are some great welterweights who often are forgotten... Or at least I don't see much mention of them too often.

What are your thoughts on Donald Curry, who lost the belt to Honeyghan? Another superb welterweight.

crold1
04-22-2011, 09:52 PM
Wow, I haven't seen those names in a long while. Good mentions. Obviously I think Oscar is the greater fighter, but those are some great welterweights who often are forgotten... Or at least I don't see much mention of them too often.

Moochie would have clowned Oscar...if he was on. :)

IronDanHamza
04-22-2011, 09:58 PM
Just supplying opinion back dude. I like boxing. ;)

That's all good, my friend.

Like I said I have gone over your lists thoroughly and although I disagree with some parts of them I have the utmost respect for them.

As you pointed out no one will ever agree whole heartedly with each others list.

:fing02:

CarlosG815
04-22-2011, 10:06 PM
Moochie would have clowned Oscar...if he was on. :)

Of the two, I would pick Honeyghan to have better odds against DLH. Moochie lacked the handspeed to give a guy like Oscar trouble.

jrosales13
04-22-2011, 10:27 PM
Oh I agree, by all means.

I dislike Oscar myself personally. Was never a fan of him.

I personally have him between 15 and 20 but the more I think about it the more I think he could easily be between 20 and 25. But, I would imagine I personally would put him between 15 and 20.

Of course you wasn't. What straight man would be a fan of Oscar?

:D

IronDanHamza
04-22-2011, 10:37 PM
Of course you wasn't. What straight man would be a fan of Oscar?

:D

:rofl:

That's actually an excellent point.

All the women in my family love him and all the men in my family hate him.

Besides me who just doesn't like him as opposed to passionate hate :lol1:

Even my cousins who are young kids and nephews who are under 10 years of age hate the guy but that's mainly because they are force fed that sh*t from birth.

But yeah lets not get on an "I hate Oscar" tangent which is clearly your intention.

:D

RubenSonny
04-22-2011, 10:57 PM
Of course you wasn't. What straight man would be a fan of Oscar?

:D

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jDGbGDNKC3s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

GJC
04-23-2011, 10:44 PM
I have De La Hoya in my top-20 BUT there's a big caveat to that: If a fighter who was great at Welter but who spent most of his career or was at his best in another division, say Middle or Lightweight, then I don't rank them at Welter.....that means Oscar isn't competing for spots against the likes of Whitaker, Duran, Chavez, Langford, ect.

Poet

Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilan
Sugar Ray Leonard
Jose Napoles
Emile Griffith
Barbados Joe Walcott
Barney Ross
Mickey Walker
Tommy Ryan
Thomas Hearns
Jimmy McLarnin
Jack Britton
Ted (Kid) Lewis
Carmen Basilio
Luis Rodriguez
Wilfred Benitez
Young Corbett III
Felix Trinidad
Don Curry

There's 20 i'd fancy to beat DLH.

Here's a few that if we follow your rules are ineligible but I'd favour:
Langford
Mike Gibbons
Charley Burley
Roberto Duran
Shane Mosley
Pernell Whitaker
Holman Williams

But then if we go with your 8 and bump up then he runs into Prior and McFarland

Deep deep division, really no shame in squeeking into a top 30 in that company. Plus lets be fair he must have more money then all of them put together.
Certainly no way he's making any top 10 at WW

Ziggy Stardust
04-23-2011, 11:07 PM
Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilan
Sugar Ray Leonard
Jose Napoles
Emile Griffith
Barbados Joe Walcott
Barney Ross
Mickey Walker
Tommy Ryan
Thomas Hearns
Jimmy McLarnin
Jack Britton
Ted (Kid) Lewis
Carmen Basilio
Luis Rodriguez
Wilfred Benitez
Young Corbett III
Felix Trinidad
Don Curry

There's 20 i'd fancy to beat DLH.

Here's a few that if we follow your rules are ineligible but I'd favour:
Langford
Mike Gibbons
Charley Burley
Roberto Duran
Shane Mosley
Pernell Whitaker
Holman Williams

But then if we go with your 8 and bump up then he runs into Prior and McFarland

Deep deep division, really no shame in squeeking into a top 30 in that company. Plus lets be fair he must have more money then all of them put together.
Certainly no way he's making any top 10 at WW

I'd favor Oscar over Pryor who I think gets grossly overrated by people, mostly over might-have-beens that never where. Trinidad had his chance, got owned, but was given a gift. Off your first list I'd favor Oscar over Curry, Britton, and Rodriguez. Walcott and Young Corbett I just don't know well enough to say one way or the other :)

Poet

GJC
04-23-2011, 11:20 PM
I'd favor Oscar over Pryor who I think gets grossly overrated by people, mostly over might-have-beens that never where. Trinidad had his chance, got owned, but was given a gift. Off your first list I'd favor Oscar over Curry, Britton, and Rodriguez. Walcott and Young Corbett I just don't know well enough to say one way or the other :)

Poet

I agree that Pryor gets overated but he has chances. Trinidad got the benefit of the doubt for sure but Walcott proved you don't win a mans title on your bike. Curry gets underrated a lot until the weight got him he was some fighter. If Kid Lewis beat DLH you gotta fancy Britton too they were like Abbott and Costello. If Rodriguez is competitive against Griffith he's probably going to have too much for DLH imo.

Scott9945
04-23-2011, 11:50 PM
I agree that Pryor gets overated but he has chances. Trinidad got the benefit of the doubt for sure but Walcott proved you don't win a mans title on your bike. Curry gets underrated a lot until the weight got him he was some fighter. If Kid Lewis beat DLH you gotta fancy Britton too they were like Abbott and Costello. If Rodriguez is competitive against Griffith he's probably going to have too much for DLH imo.

Curry was an excellent welterweight champion for about four years. I'd pick him in his prime to beat DLH. But no doubt that Oscar had the better boxing career. Curry was just never the same after the shocking loss to Honeyghan.

Turok2
04-23-2011, 11:56 PM
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i can't believe he was nominated for a grammy lol

Ziggy Stardust
04-24-2011, 12:01 AM
No one's going to confuse the dude with Marc Anthony.