View Full Version : Greb biography


JAB5239
04-18-2011, 05:03 AM
I've been away the past month and finally got to catch up on some reading and finished the biography "The fearless Harry Greb".

After reading this I've come to a few conclusions (my opinions only).

1. I rank Greb the 2nd greatest fighter ever after Sam Langford. I expect to catch flack frim those who have Robinson #1 and am ready to debate.

2. Greb was not nearly the dirty fighter he's been portrayed to be.

3. Jack Dempsey clearly ducked Greb.

4. Dempsey ducked Wills. I've always been a firm advocate Dempsey never ducked Harry Wills, but after reading a particular quote and piecing together the timeline I have changed my mind.

Im back and more than willing to answer questions and accept challenges to my opinions.

TBear
04-18-2011, 05:41 AM
Welcome back Jab(from this humble Robinson fan :D)

$Natedatpkid$
04-18-2011, 06:13 AM
Where can I find footage of Greb or Langford? I can't find *****. Is books the only thing I can do? I wanna see this guys everybody always says are arguably better then Robinson.

I always thought Robinson was undisputedly the best. I just don't think I could make any opinions of the matter since their ain't no footage on those guys. It's hard to rank them.

IronDanHamza
04-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Could you care to break down why Greb and Langford are greater than Ray Robinson?

I have Robinson #1, Langford #2 and Greb #3. I understand why others may have Greb and Langford above him.

But I'm curious on why you have them ahead of him.

IronDanHamza
04-18-2011, 10:46 AM
Where can I find footage of Greb or Langford? I can't find *****. Is books the only thing I can do? I wanna see this guys everybody always says are arguably better then Robinson.

I always thought Robinson was undisputedly the best. I just don't think I could make any opinions of the matter since their ain't no footage on those guys. It's hard to rank them.

There isn't any.

$Natedatpkid$
04-18-2011, 11:05 AM
There isn't any.

Then how are they held in such high regard like their among the untouchables? Thats crazy.

IronDanHamza
04-18-2011, 11:19 AM
Then how are they held in such high regard like their among the untouchables? Thats crazy.

Do you need footage of someone to know how great they are?

Do you not consider Ray Robinson as the greatest WW of all time? Or atleast one of them?

When you read about people you can evaluate their greatness, No?

Especially in boxing considering resumes can be compared.

When looking at Langford or Greb's resume it is abundantly clear they are amongst the greatest fighters of all time.

BigStereotype
04-18-2011, 11:19 AM
Then how are they held in such high regard like their among the untouchables? Thats crazy.

I don't think it makes sense either...

$Natedatpkid$
04-18-2011, 11:32 AM
I don't think it makes sense either...

I know this ain't religion I can't just believe on faith and books alone haha.

I read Robinson biography book "sugar ray". That was tight. But I don't think you should let books effect how you view things. I believe you should keep an open mind and books help open your mind so I won't ignorantly say they aren't great fighters just because I can't see them, but I don't think anybody can really say they were the best if all they got is books.

Scott9945
04-18-2011, 11:33 AM
Then how are they held in such high regard like their among the untouchables? Thats crazy.

It's based on records, achievements, skills, and first hand accounts of their fights. Otherwise you have to completely dismiss what they did if you need video as evidence.

$Natedatpkid$
04-18-2011, 11:36 AM
Do you need footage of someone to know how great they are?

Do you not consider Ray Robinson as the greatest WW of all time? Or atleast one of them?

When you read about people you can evaluate their greatness, No?

Especially in boxing considering resumes can be compared.

When looking at Langford or Greb's resume it is abundantly clear they are amongst the greatest fighters of all time.

Yeah no doubt. I'm not ignorant. I want to learn more about the sport. I've download over a hundred of old great's fights. I'm still young to the sport and still learning. I'm not gonna be ignorant and say they weren't great fighters. But without seeing the fights I just don't really think anybody could rank them #1 or #2 easily. Rankings have always been just opinions anyways, peoples differ. I'm just saying thats how I feel.

If Michael Jordan didn't have no footage. I'd have him up there with the all time greats thanks to resume but couldn't tell you he's the greatest basketball player to ever live. But seeing what he did out there on the court, that just seals the deal.

$Natedatpkid$
04-18-2011, 11:39 AM
It's based on records, achievements, skills, and first hand accounts of their fights. Otherwise you have to completely dismiss what they did if you need video as evidence.

Thats all subjective though. Thats just me though. You know how Harold Letterman and Lampley say the craziest things during fights. I like making my own opinion. There definitely great fighters. I just honestly could never rank them #1.

Barn
04-18-2011, 11:45 AM
There isn't any.
There is Langford footage.

Barn
04-18-2011, 11:46 AM
Yeah no doubt. I'm not ignorant. I want to learn more about the sport. I've download over a hundred of old great's fights. I'm still young to the sport and still learning. I'm not gonna be ignorant and say they weren't great fighters. But without seeing the fights I just don't really think anybody could rank them #1 or #2 easily. Rankings have always been just opinions anyways, peoples differ. I'm just saying thats how I feel.

If Michael Jordan didn't have no footage. I'd have him up there with the all time greats thanks to resume but couldn't tell you he's the greatest basketball player to ever live. But seeing what he did out there on the court, that just seals the deal.
There is footage of Greb people beat though such as Tunney, Waler, Lourghan etc, all with very different styles yet amazing ability.

To beat all these different styles and 18HOF Greb must have been some fighter.

IronDanHamza
04-18-2011, 11:50 AM
Yeah no doubt. I'm not ignorant. I want to learn more about the sport. I've download over a hundred of old great's fights. I'm still young to the sport and still learning. I'm not gonna be ignorant and say they weren't great fighters. But without seeing the fights I just don't really think anybody could rank them #1 or #2 easily. Rankings have always been just opinions anyways, peoples differ. I'm just saying thats how I feel.

If Michael Jordan didn't have no footage. I'd have him up there with the all time greats thanks to resume but couldn't tell you he's the greatest basketball player to ever live. But seeing what he did out there on the court, that just seals the deal.

Not that I kow a single thing about Basketball. But if Michael Jordan is the best Basketball player of all time, do you need footage to know that? I don't think you do. His record allows you to identify he is one of the greatest of all time. Just like Greb and Langfords do.

You said you felt Robinson is the greatest of all time, right? But we only have footage of him past his prime. So how do you know he's the greatest? Using the logic you presented, of course.

For me, Robinson is the greatest of all time due to his resume and what he achieved. Does tape help? Absolutely. But do I need it? No.

I would still rank Robinson #1 with or without tape. I don't see why you need tape to identify someone's greatness.

IronDanHamza
04-18-2011, 11:51 AM
There is Langford footage.

Very little, though.

IronDanHamza
04-18-2011, 11:52 AM
There is footage of Greb people beat though such as Tunney, Waler, Lourghan etc, all with very different styles yet amazing ability.

To beat all these different styles and 18HOF Greb must have been some fighter.

Precisely.

Good post.

$Natedatpkid$
04-18-2011, 11:57 AM
There is footage of Greb people beat though such as Tunney, Waler, Lourghan etc, all with very different styles yet amazing ability.

To beat all these different styles and 18HOF Greb must have been some fighter.

and thats exactly why I would never EVER try and put together a greatest of all time list haha. The ***** gets too complicated because their are SOOOOOOOOO many factors.

If you read ringside accounts you gotta make sure it's not guys like CBS's Gus Johnson who calls Pink Mohawk guy KOing Kimbo Slice one of the greatest upsets in sports history haha.

Books can pretty much convince you to believe anything sometimes. Boxing math doesn't work. John Ruiz > Holyfield > Tyson > Holmes > Ali hahahaha

Thats gets kinda ridiculous. Maybe when I'm bored one day and feel like going crazy haha

$Natedatpkid$
04-18-2011, 12:01 PM
Not that I kow a single thing about Basketball. But if Michael Jordan is the best Basketball player of all time, do you need footage to know that? I don't think you do. His record allows you to identify he is one of the greatest of all time. Just like Greb and Langfords do.

You said you felt Robinson is the greatest of all time, right? But we only have footage of him past his prime. So how do you know he's the greatest? Using the logic you presented, of course.

For me, Robinson is the greatest of all time due to his resume and what he achieved. Does tape help? Absolutely. But do I need it? No.

I would still rank Robinson #1 with or without tape. I don't see why you need tape to identify someone's greatness.

I got every fight Obama has over there at the sweet boxing site of him. The man was beautiful to watch. Vs Randy Turpin 2? OH MY GAWD. He went from slackin' in the 1st fight, put his gameface on in the 2nd fight and GOD DAMN! He trashed him! Beautiful KO.

Out of all the people I've heard mentioned as one of the greatest of all time that I've seen, he's by far been the most impressive. Thats just my opinion though.

It just goes to show how good he was that even past his prime he gave the best young prime fighters after him the fight of their lives haha

Barn
04-18-2011, 12:10 PM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bvdt3xm3ql0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

A past prime Langford fighting a (potentially) Top 30 ATG heavyweight.


Langord at 166 vs Lang at 203. Aged 28.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4SvbTck039Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ziggy Stardust
04-18-2011, 12:27 PM
Vs Randy Turpin 2? OH MY GAWD. He went from slackin' in the 1st fight, put his gameface on in the 2nd fight and GOD DAMN! He trashed him! Beautiful KO.

Here's the weakness of video too: People take the footage of that last round of Turpin II and conclude Robinson had no defense. The truth is, Robinson had been told the fight was going to be stopped after that round because of his cut.....he HAD to eskew defense and go all out for the KO. If he doesn't he loses the fight.

The point being that film CAN be misleading. Just a thought :)

Poet

JAB5239
04-18-2011, 12:40 PM
Welcome back Jab(from this humble Robinson fan :D)

Thank you my friend, its good to be back!

$Natedatpkid$
04-18-2011, 12:42 PM
Here's the weakness of video too: People take the footage of that last round of Turpin II and conclude Robinson had no defense. The truth is, Robinson had been told the fight was going to be stopped after that round because of his cut.....he HAD to eskew defense and go all out for the KO. If he doesn't he loses the fight.

The point being that film CAN be misleading. Just a thought :)

Poet

Yeah I read that in his book actually haha. He was not going to lose to that man twice. Also how he was about to become the Light Heavyweight champion of the world if it wasn't for that frying pan of a ring they were fighting in on that crazy hot day.

Thanks for Langford video Barnburner. Ima check it out now.

Ziggy Stardust
04-18-2011, 12:49 PM
Yeah I read that in his book actually haha. He was not going to lose to that man twice. Also how he was about to become the Light Heavyweight champion of the world if it wasn't for that frying pan of a ring they were fighting in on that crazy hot day.

Thanks for Langford video Barnburner. Ima check it out now.

It's pretty bad when they have to cart the REF out from heatstroke :chuckle9:

Poet

JAB5239
04-18-2011, 01:04 PM
Could you care to break down why Greb and Langford are greater than Ray Robinson?

I have Robinson #1, Langford #2 and Greb #3. I understand why others may have Greb and Langford above him.

But I'm curious on why you have them ahead of him.

Both fought and were dominant over a larger range of weights (able to compete while giving up much in weight and height) and have overall better resumes in my opinion.

Langford simply beat the best fighters from lightweight to heavyweight and was ducked by every champion including Jack Johnson. To top this off he had to carry many fighters to keep getting fights. Its my opinion if he were allowed to fight and make money the same way as the white fighters of his day he would have cut an even wider path through all his divisions and been a champion from at least middleweight through heavy.

As far as Greb goes...He simply beat everyone and has the greatest resume all time. He didn't just win over hall of fame fighters, he dominated them and did so with the lack of true ko power and being blind in one eye for much of his career. He beat most of the best heavyweights of his day easily and was blatantly ducked by Jack Dempsey who chose to fight Greb's leftovers instead of Greb himself after Greb twice thrashed him in sparring.

Im by no means putting down the great Ray Robinson and respect any list with him #1. But after much reading and research I've changed my opinion as I also had SRR at the one spot for as long as I've been following boxing history.

JAB5239
04-18-2011, 03:23 PM
Thats all subjective though. Thats just me though. You know how Harold Letterman and Lampley say the craziest things during fights. I like making my own opinion. There definitely great fighters. I just honestly could never rank them #1.

The difference is there was a unified consensus as to Grebs ability as a fighter which is documented by various newspaper account of his many fight and supported by the opinions of the fighters who actually fought him.

Ziggy Stardust
04-18-2011, 03:35 PM
Does the book tell about how Turpin was arrested on suspicion of rape days before their rematch?

Sucks to be him.....and this has to do with my point that the film gives a misleading impression of Robinson's abilities what exactly? :dunno9:

Poet

$Natedatpkid$
04-18-2011, 03:36 PM
It's pretty bad when they have to cart the REF out from heatstroke :chuckle9:

Poet

hahaha the ref gots mad heart! Real hard worker. Has too be an exhausting job watching two fighters slug it out for 14 rounds.

I wonder why they never rematched, anybody know why? Imagine if Sugar Ray won that title. Their would have been mad potential for an archie moore fight! I know negotiations broke down for a fight between them anyway prolly because of Robinson but that would have been NASTY!!!

That would have been a crazy fight. How would that have effected Ray Robinson's legacy? Would just the fight alone win or lose propell Robinson past Greb definitively?

IronDanHamza
04-18-2011, 03:38 PM
Both fought and were dominant over a larger range of weights (able to compete while giving up much in weight and height) and have overall better resumes in my opinion.

Langford simply beat the best fighters from lightweight to heavyweight and was ducked by every champion including Jack Johnson. To top this off he had to carry many fighters to keep getting fights. Its my opinion if he were allowed to fight and make money the same way as the white fighters of his day he would have cut an even wider path through all his divisions and been a champion from at least middleweight through heavy.

As far as Greb goes...He simply beat everyone and has the greatest resume all time. He didn't just win over hall of fame fighters, he dominated them and did so with the lack of true ko power and being blind in one eye for much of his career. He beat most of the best heavyweights of his day easily and was blatantly ducked by Jack Dempsey who chose to fight Greb's leftovers instead of Greb himself after Greb twice thrashed him in sparring.

Im by no means putting down the great Ray Robinson and respect any list with him #1. But after much reading and research I've changed my opinion as I also had SRR at the one spot for as long as I've been following boxing history.

I respect your opinion and have no quarms with your ranking.

We know Langford didn't get as much opportunity as others and quite frankly didn't get much opportunites at all for a while. But should he fact he was ducked higher his ranking? Personally, I don't think it should. But I guess he did enough for someone to rank him higher than Robinson anyway.

Have no quarms with your view on Greb, his resume is unreal. I switch Greb and Langford around quite often.

Barn
04-18-2011, 03:38 PM
There's a lot of "ifs" with Robinson.

Another for example: What if he had faced and beaten Charley Burley?

Barn
04-18-2011, 03:39 PM
I respect your opinion and have no quarms with your ranking.

We know Langford didn't get as much opportunity as others and quite frankly didn't get much opportunites at all for a while. But should he fact he was ducked higher his ranking? Personally, I don't think it should. But I guess he did enough for someone to rank him higher than Robinson anyway.

Have no quarms with your view on Greb, his resume is unreal. I switch Greb and Langford around quite often.
I personally have Greb above Langford but, it's really so close I don't know how you could have any Top 5 without those 3 names.

NChristo
04-18-2011, 03:43 PM
There's a lot of "ifs" with Robinson.

Another for example: What if he had faced and beaten Charley Burley?

But there's a lot of ifs with every fighter, the obvious one with Greb being what if he had fought Dempsey.

IronDanHamza
04-18-2011, 03:45 PM
I personally have Greb above Langford but, it's really so close I don't know how you could have any Top 5 without those 3 names.

Agreed, on all accounts.

The tougher task is naming #4 and #5 :lol1:

Ziggy Stardust
04-18-2011, 03:47 PM
hahaha the ref gots mad heart! Real hard worker. Has too be an exhausting job watching two fighters slug it out for 14 rounds.

I wonder why they never rematched, anybody know why? Imagine if Sugar Ray won that title. Their would have been mad potential for an archie moore fight! I know negotiations broke down for a fight between them anyway prolly because of Robinson but that would have been NASTY!!!

That would have been a crazy fight. How would that have effected Ray Robinson's legacy? Would just the fight alone win or lose propell Robinson past Greb definitively?

I doubt Maxim would have wanted a rematch. I also doubt Robinson would have stayed at Light-Heavy to defend the title if he had pulled it off. Would have been a nice capper to what was already a boxing's best career though :)

Poet

JAB5239
04-18-2011, 03:59 PM
I respect your opinion and have no quarms with your ranking.

We know Langford didn't get as much opportunity as others and quite frankly didn't get much opportunites at all for a while. But should he fact he was ducked higher his ranking? Personally, I don't think it should. But I guess he did enough for someone to rank him higher than Robinson anyway.

Im also factoring in the opinions of fighters as well as boxing writers of the time that thought Langford held back against Ketchel in their non title 6 round fight and would have beaten him in a title fight as well as being the best light heavyweight though he was unable to fight for the strap.

JAB5239
04-18-2011, 04:04 PM
But there's a lot of ifs with every fighter, the obvious one with Greb being what if he had fought Dempsey.

Dempsey openly ducked Greb instead choosing to fight guys Harry had already beaten. Greb had been chasing Dempsey even before he won the title and there was a huge public calling for this fight after Dempsey had won the title and Greb was tearing up all the competition at 160, 175 and heavyweight.

RubenSonny
04-18-2011, 04:39 PM
4. Dempsey ducked Wills. I've always been a firm advocate Dempsey never ducked Harry Wills, but after reading a particular quote and piecing together the timeline I have changed my mind.

Hey Jab, nice to have you back, I hope everything is good.

Could you elaborate on what made you change your stance, I believe we once had a debate over this a while back.

JAB5239
04-18-2011, 05:03 PM
Hey Jab, nice to have you back, I hope everything is good.

Could you elaborate on what made you change your stance, I believe we once had a debate over this a while back.

2 things I read in the Greb book made me change my mind. The first was a poll conducted by the Pittsburgh post when Greb was vying for a fight with Dempsey. It had a poll as to who was most deserving of a fight with Dempsey and the vast majority favored Wills. If will could get the majority vote in Grebs home town I have no reason to believe the rest of the country wouldn't agree. The second is a quote by Dempsey to a writer which stated something to the effect (I'll have to look it back up to get the exact words) of "Why Greb gave a shot to a negro to begin with I will never understand." This was said after Harry had lost to Tiger Flowers. I see no reason for the writer to make that up as he would hardly be aware of the repercussion the better part of a century later.

For a long time I was on board with the theory Dempsey tried to make the Wills fight after making him wait to long. I no longer subscribe to that at the moment and am under the assumption Dempsey may have even know his two attempts at fighting Wills were going to be shot down and the fight would never occur.

Barn
04-18-2011, 05:05 PM
Agreed, on all accounts.

The tougher task is naming #4 and #5 :lol1:
Henry Armstrong and Ezzard Charles for me.

RubenSonny
04-18-2011, 05:07 PM
2 things I read in the Greb book made me change my mind. The first was a poll conducted by the Pittsburgh post when Greb was vying for a fight with Dempsey. It had a poll as to who was most deserving of a fight with Dempsey and the vast majority favored Wills. If will could get the majority vote in Grebs home town I have no reason to believe the rest of the country wouldn't agree. The second is a quote by Dempsey to a writer which stated something to the effect (I'll have to look it back up to get the exact words) of "Why Greb gave a shot to a negro to begin with I will never understand." This was said after Harry had lost to Tiger Flowers. I see no reason for the writer to make that up as he would hardly be aware of the repercussion the better part of a century later.

For a long time I was on board with the theory Dempsey tried to make the Wills fight after making him wait to long. I no longer subscribe to that at the moment and am under the assumption Dempsey may have even know his two attempts at fighting Wills were going to be shot down and the fight would never occur.

Thanks for the info :fing02: I need to read up on Greb.

JAB5239
04-18-2011, 05:26 PM
Thanks for the info :fing02: I need to read up on Greb.

Anytime my friend. It turned out to be a very good book with excellent description of his fights and style from various writers, fighters and newspaper accounts. From what I gathered he had excellent footwork darting in and out and his hand speed was said to be better than even the great Benny Leonard. His style (in my mind) would have been like Naseem Hamed (throwing from odd angles), minus the power but with a much, much higher work rate and without the fancy showboating. His dominance was like that of Floyd Mayweather, hardly losing rounds but taking on all the best fighters of his era. Simply put, he is arguably the greatest fighter ever based on resume, longevity and dominance of his contemporaries and HAS to be included in any such debate.

$Natedatpkid$
04-18-2011, 06:18 PM
Jab did you read "give them to the angels" by Harry Greb? I was gonna take a drive to the library to see if they might have it then I looked at an amazon ad for it and it was like $100 hahaha. FAT ****IN CHANCE!

Scott9945
04-18-2011, 06:24 PM
curious to know what your interpretation is of "First hand accounts"... is it some 40yr old writer who writes the autobiography after doing his research or a 92yr old Legendary trainer who saw them fight with his own eyes and expresses his opinion of their greatness.


Specifically I'm referring to writers who covered their fights live. Whether they are still alive now isn't important. They were there and wrote about what they saw. Clear enough?

Steak
04-18-2011, 06:32 PM
Well, if were going to call Greb #1 all time, were going to have to dissect his record.

I know he has wins over Rosenbloom, Loughran, Mickey Walker and Tiger Flowers. pretty damned good list of wins already. Add in his win over Tunney and you can surely start to make a pretty good case for him.
Want to add in some other notable wins? then we can start comparing his wins to Robinson's.

I dont like to rate fighters Ive never seen. But for Greb I might have to make an exception. I may not have seen Greb, but Ive seen footage of who he beat, and they were some pretty impressive fighters.

CarlosG815
04-18-2011, 06:46 PM
Dempsey would have killed Greb.

JAB5239
04-18-2011, 07:14 PM
Dempsey would have killed Greb.

Maybe, maybe not. But the fact remains that Greb twice humiliated him in sparring and Dempsey avoided a fight with him choosing instead to fight guys Greb had already beaten.

JAB5239
04-18-2011, 07:50 PM
Well, if were going to call Greb #1 all time, were going to have to dissect his record.

I know he has wins over Rosenbloom, Loughran, Mickey Walker and Tiger Flowers. pretty damned good list of wins already. Add in his win over Tunney and you can surely start to make a pretty good case for him.
Want to add in some other notable wins? then we can start comparing his wins to Robinson's.

I dont like to rate fighters Ive never seen. But for Greb I might have to make an exception. I may not have seen Greb, but Ive seen footage of who he beat, and they were some pretty impressive fighters.

Contenders Greb beat.

Jack Blackburn *
Jackie Clark
Willie Neehan
Lou Bogash
Jimmy Darcy
Johnny Wilson
Clay Turner
Leo Houck
Billy Miske *
Gunboat Smith
Mike O'Dowd
Al McCoy
Tommy Gibbons *

Champions Greb beat.

George Chip
Battling Levinski *
Jack Dillon *
Mike McTigue
Gene Tunney *
Mike Gibbons *
Kid Norfolk *
Tiger Flowers *
Jimmy Delaney *
Mickey Walker *
Maxie Rosenbloom *
Tommy Loughran *
Jimmy Slattery
Johnny Wilson

Asterisks indicate IBHOF members.

Many of these guys Greb fought several times and unlike many of his contemporaries Greb was not afraid to fight the best black fighters.

JAB5239
04-18-2011, 08:45 PM
Jab did you read "give them to the angels" by Harry Greb? I was gonna take a drive to the library to see if they might have it then I looked at an amazon ad for it and it was like $100 hahaha. FAT ****IN CHANCE!

The book is mentioned as a tool the author of "The Fearless Harry Greb" used as a tool in writing his own book but found useless because it wasn't based on facts, but myth that the author chose to keep exaggerating instead of getting to the root of them. The reason it is so expensive is that its a very rare book. I'd like to have it for my slowly growing collection, but I can't see spending that kind of money on something I can't learn anything from. If I made more than my humble income I might have bought it just to have it but what can you do?

crold1
04-18-2011, 09:45 PM
Where can I find footage of Greb or Langford? I can't find *****. Is books the only thing I can do? I wanna see this guys everybody always says are arguably better then Robinson.

I always thought Robinson was undisputedly the best. I just don't think I could make any opinions of the matter since their ain't no footage on those guys. It's hard to rank them.

The funny thing is, by your argument, you could never really have an opinion on who the GOAT time is because it would never be possible, without seeing them, to say they WEREN'T either.

Which is correct in so many ways.

Whether one has seen them all or not (and no one has seen them all).

Why?

Because, when it gets to the level of a Robinson, Langford, Greb, Charles, Armstrong, Duran...it's splitting hairs at some point and history can never put them all in the ring together.

In other words, we never saw them fight each other (where reasonable).

At that point, it's okay to say "all these people who lived in his time couldn't be wrong" as a factor in evaluation. In the case of Greb, watching tape of the guys he beat is a big clue.

Rock on.

JAB5239
04-19-2011, 01:03 AM
your correct in that it is impossible to say who was the greatest of all time because no layman ever seen all the greats fight and to make that vital judgement that one certain fighter was the best of all time, so we must go with our own thoughts of what we have read and what we have seen along side clippings and articles from respected people who did see many of those greats from yesteryear fight.. Ray Arcel who is almost universally recognised as the greatest trainer in the history of the sport so would know exactly what it took to be special in the prize ring was born in 1899 and was involved in boxing all his life training greats like Benny Leonard, Gene Tunney, Freddie Steele right through to Roberto Duran is the person who's word i personally respect over any other layman. Ray Arcel said,"When thinking about who was the greatest fighter of all time one should think of only one fighter and that is Jack Dempsey, he would have beaten everyone"... just a thought!

Yet Dempsey avoided Greb after being whooped in sparring, preferring to take on fighters Greb had already thrashed. Interesting to say the least.

JAB5239
04-19-2011, 01:22 AM
Pacquiao got whooped in sparring by Amir Khan
Joe Frazier got whooped in sparring by Gypsy Joe Harris
Muhammad Ali got whooped in sparring by Jeff Sims
Floyd Mayweather got whooped in sparring by Paul Spadarora
Sparring is not a prizefight, lighter fighters are used in the final weeks of training to enable a fighter to increase or adapt to speed or other aspects of his upcoming opponents technique

Thats all fine and good. Whats your excuse for Dempsey taking on fighters Greb had already beaten instead of Harry himself? Are you going to try an use your old excuse "there was no call for it" again? :lol1:

JAB5239
04-19-2011, 02:11 AM
i don't need to make excuses for any fighter, i pointed out what the great Ray Arcel said and you disagree then ask me why Dempsey never fought Grebb and what my excuse for it not happening is... :thinking:

Yep, I would like to hear your opinion on why Dempsey ducked Greb to fight guys Greb had already beaten. Why he never fought Wills.

JAB5239
04-19-2011, 03:27 AM
Yep, I would like to hear your opinion on why Dempsey ducked Greb to fight guys Greb had already beaten. Why he never fought Wills.

I guess sonny has no answer for me. :dunno:

BattlingNelson
04-19-2011, 06:45 AM
It's pretty bad when they have to cart the REF out from heatstroke :chuckle9:

Poet

Apparently the only person NOT feeling the heat was Joey Maxim....

CarlosG815
04-19-2011, 09:38 AM
Dempsey facing Greb would be like Tyson taking on Bernard Hopkins.

mrboxer
04-19-2011, 09:42 AM
greb would get flattened:boxing:

RubenSonny
04-19-2011, 09:59 AM
Dempsey facing Greb would be like Tyson taking on Bernard Hopkins.

Right. Instead Tyson should take on opposition Hopkins had already beat? :)

JAB5239
04-19-2011, 01:06 PM
Dempsey facing Greb would be like Tyson taking on Bernard Hopkins.

Not even close my friend. Hopkins never beat a single fighter who fought Tyson, unlike Greb who easily beat several fighters Dempsey would later go on to fight including Willie Meehan who twice beat Dempsey.

If this was such an easy fight than why did Dempsey fight Grebs leftovers instead of the man himself?

Barn
04-19-2011, 01:07 PM
Not even close my friend. Hopkins never beat a single fighter who fought Tyson, unlike Greb who easily beat several fighters Dempsey would later go on to fight including Willie Meehan who twice beat Dempsey.

If this was such an easy fight than why did Dempsey fight Grebs leftovers instead of the man himself?
CarlosG is a Dempsey fan, just leave it. His opinions aren't changing.

JAB5239
04-19-2011, 01:16 PM
CarlosG is a Dempsey fan, just leave it. His opinions aren't changing.

Thats fine and good, I like Carlos. But I still would like to hear his opinions.

Barn
04-19-2011, 01:27 PM
Thats fine and good, I like Carlos. But I still would like to hear his opinions.
I'm not holding it against him in any way.

It's similar to me with Hagler no matter what you say H2H Hagler > Monzon

JAB5239
04-19-2011, 01:38 PM
I'm not holding it against him in any way.

It's similar to me with Hagler no matter what you say H2H Hagler > Monzon

I wouldn't argue Dempsey couldn't beat Greb, though I firmly believe he didn't think he could beat him. Otherwise there was no reason for the fight not to be made. The public wanted it, it was on of the best fights that could be made and there would have been great financial gain for both sides.

Ziggy Stardust
04-19-2011, 01:58 PM
Apparently the only person NOT feeling the heat was Joey Maxim....

Some people are like that: I've certainly known a few people that had no problems at all in temps I'd be dying in and I'm used to summers where the temps are regularly in the 90s.

Poet

Barn
04-19-2011, 02:57 PM
I wouldn't argue Dempsey couldn't beat Greb, though I firmly believe he didn't think he could beat him. Otherwise there was no reason for the fight not to be made. The public wanted it, it was on of the best fights that could be made and there would have been great financial gain for both sides.
I would take Dempsey over Greb but, I'm going on the ferocity of Dempsey rather than anything Iv'e seen from Greb(obviously lol)

RubenSonny
04-19-2011, 03:03 PM
Some people are like that: I've certainly known a few people that had no problems at all in temps I'd be dying in and I'm used to summers where the temps are regularly in the 90s.

Poet

In addition, Robinson was the much more active fighter in that fight, and the smaller man too.

Holtol
04-19-2011, 04:10 PM
In addition, Robinson was the much more active fighter in that fight, and the smaller man too.

Likely the activity is what caused the exsaustion. Robinson with his build should have been able to dissipate the heat better. Slender builds are better at cooling in the heat they have more surface area. Same way a bowl of water evaporates slower then if it was spread out over a big surface. A lot of holding may have caused Robinson to overheat but I can't remember the fight that well.

Barn
04-19-2011, 04:14 PM
Likely the activity is what caused the exsaustion. Robinson with his build should have been able to dissipate the heat better. Slender builds are better at cooling in the heat they have more surface area. Same way a bowl of water evaporates slower then if it was spread out over a big surface. A lot of holding may have caused Robinson to overheat but I can't remember the fight that well.
I thought mass decreased a substance ability to a temperature rise.?

Holtol
04-19-2011, 04:22 PM
I thought mass decreased a substance ability to a temperature rise.?

I was listening to cbc raidio one day and they were talking about how long slender people disapate heat better. Maxium was not stocky by any means but looked quite a bit more bulky to me. The way I understand it is that bulk has less surface area for the heat to escape. Robinson was a bit wide through the back though.

You might be right about mass decreasing a substance ability to rise. I never really thought about it any other way then what was described to me on the radio.

Barn
04-19-2011, 04:28 PM
I was listening to cbc raidio one day and they were talking about how long slender people disapate heat better. Maxium was not stocky by any means but looked quite a bit more bulky to me. The way I understand it is that bulk has less surface area for the heat to escape. Robinson was a bit wide through the back though.
I'm just using equations lol.

Change in temperature = Heat Energy/ Heat Capacity x Mass

Heat Energy is constant from the surroundings and Heat capacity should be similar so it's down to mass which is over the constant heat energy making is less the higher the mass is.

It's like boiling 2l in a kettle or 200ml, 2l takes a lot longer.

I don't know that's just what I've always thought haha.

BattlingNelson
04-19-2011, 04:29 PM
In addition, Robinson was the much more active fighter in that fight, and the smaller man too.
The conditions was the same for both men. As in every fight you got to take what you are given and Maxim paced himself better.

Holtol
04-19-2011, 05:04 PM
I'm just using equations lol.

Change in temperature = Heat Energy/ Heat Capacity x Mass

Heat Energy is constant from the surroundings and Heat capacity should be similar so it's down to mass which is over the constant heat energy making is less the higher the mass is.

It's like boiling 2l in a kettle or 200ml, 2l takes a lot longer.

I don't know that's just what I've always thought haha.

I never really thought about it that way, But that makes some sense also. May take a bigger body like Maxim a little longer to get warmed up. I think Robinson was more lanky then Maxim and his body more spread out. Same way is if you spread out boiling water it cools faster then if its in a pot. Your right it heats up faster also but then the body starts to sweat and provide cooling and I think Robinson had more surface skin area per pound. Maybe not though his back was pretty thick.