View Full Version : Hagler vs Monzon


Micki Ninaj
04-11-2011, 04:29 AM
Who would win?, How would the fight go? and why?

This would be a war!

Barnburner
04-11-2011, 05:48 AM
I used to be confient of Hagler winning but, now I'm not so sure.

I am confiedent though it would not be a "war" unless Hagler is losing at the end (which is likely) then the pace will increase but, not to the "war" standard. It's also one I see happening in 3 parts,

The first few rounds will be close, with both excellent jabs being used frequently.

Monzon would then begin to counter and predict Hagler in my opinion.

Haglers would become an aggresive fighter and take the pace up using his superb stamina which was a little better than Monzons to start putting some rounds in the bank.

It's a case of whether Haglers aggressive drive at the end can get him enough points to win the bout. I am unsure, I think Hagler may score a knockdown late, which could be the deciding factor.

SPREAD
04-11-2011, 05:57 AM
Monzon got the reach advantage and a accurate popping jab Hagler would have to get inside and make it a war IMO.

Barnburner
04-11-2011, 06:15 AM
Monzon got the reach advantage and a accurate popping jab Hagler would have to get inside and make it a war IMO.
It's a 1 inch reach advantage though, hardly anything significant.

Liston > Ali reach advantage, did Ali go inside and make it a war?

IronDanHamza
04-11-2011, 06:38 AM
It's a 1 inch reach advantage though, hardly anything significant.

Liston > Ali reach advantage, did Ali go inside and make it a war?

Hagler has deceiving reach. People seem to forget that or presume he has a short reach when he really doesn't, at all.

But Liston Ali really and obviously can't me compared the styles are so vastly different than these two.

I do agree that Halgers best option is to try and skillfully get inside on Monzon, I don't see him coming out on top trying to jab with him.

Barnburner
04-11-2011, 07:38 AM
Hagler has deceiving reach. People seem to forget that or presume he has a short reach when he really doesn't, at all.

But Liston Ali really and obviously can't me compared the styles are so vastly different than these two.

I do agree that Halgers best option is to try and skillfully get inside on Monzon, I don't see him coming out on top trying to jab with him.
Yes I know but, he simply stated Longer Reach must go inside.

Hagler WAS NOT primarily an inside fighter either.

SCtrojansbaby
04-11-2011, 08:33 AM
Hagler had really wide shoulders his arms were average length for a man his height. Monzon would have the length advantage which would enable him to control the pace and is why I give him the edge

IronDanHamza
04-11-2011, 09:01 AM
Yes I know but, he simply stated Longer Reach must go inside.

Hagler WAS NOT primarily an inside fighter either.

Absolutely. But he can fight inside, well. And I think that would be a better stratergy with Monzon as opposed to being on the outside. I don't see that.

But yeah I know what you were implying with the reach thing.

Barnburner
04-11-2011, 09:39 AM
Absolutely. But he can fight inside, well. And I think that would be a better stratergy with Monzon as opposed to being on the outside. I don't see that.

But yeah I know what you were implying with the reach thing.
Of course as I have stated in my post Monzon will start to time and predict Hagler in the middle rounds.

Wild Blue Yonda
04-11-2011, 05:21 PM
Always saw this as Monzons fight, myself.

Barnburner
04-11-2011, 06:01 PM
Always saw this as Monzons fight, myself.
To what degree?

Do you believe Monzn takes all in a 3 fight series?

IronDanHamza
04-11-2011, 06:28 PM
To what degree?

Do you believe Monzn takes all in a 3 fight series?

I don't see Halger getting white washed Vs. anyone in history at 160.

But I would definitely favour a 2-1 loss at the very least to Monzon. JMO.

RubenSonny
04-11-2011, 06:32 PM
I think I know where Dan and Marvs loyalties lie...:lol1:

$Natedatpkid$
04-11-2011, 10:00 PM
This would be a pretty epic fight. I don't like saying either of these 2 would lose because they both were monsters at their peak, almost unbeatable.

This is just a wild guess but Hagler by close decision. Both were animals. Too me thats like asking who would win between a Gorilla and a Siberian tiger or lion. That ***** would be ridiculous the watch. The fight probably wouldn't be too much of a brawl but it'd still be ****in epic.

DarkTerror88
04-11-2011, 11:26 PM
In a perfect world it would go 1-1-1 and we all could argue some more. :lol1:

I've always seen it 2-1 in Haglers favor but he would look like s**t doing it.

Wild Blue Yonda
04-12-2011, 02:20 AM
This would be a pretty epic fight. I don't like saying either of these 2 would lose because they both were monsters at their peak, almost unbeatable.

This is just a wild guess but Hagler by close decision. Both were animals. Too me thats like asking who would win between a Gorilla and a Siberian tiger or lion. That ***** would be ridiculous the watch. The fight probably wouldn't be too much of a brawl but it'd still be ****in epic.

You know gorillas are preyed upon by leopards? It may as well be a monkey in there, for all the chance a gorilla has against a cat that size.

them_apples
04-12-2011, 02:44 AM
I used to be confient of Hagler winning but, now I'm not so sure.

I am confiedent though it would not be a "war" unless Hagler is losing at the end (which is likely) then the pace will increase but, not to the "war" standard. It's also one I see happening in 3 parts,

The first few rounds will be close, with both excellent jabs being used frequently.

Monzon would then begin to counter and predict Hagler in my opinion.

Haglers would become an aggresive fighter and take the pace up using his superb stamina which was a little better than Monzons to start putting some rounds in the bank.

It's a case of whether Haglers aggressive drive at the end can get him enough points to win the bout. I am unsure, I think Hagler may score a knockdown late, which could be the deciding factor.

I see Hagler beating Monzon. Monzon is a very tough fighter with the natural ability to time punches and was very relaxed in the ring but Hagler in my books is the superior athlete and possesses more skill and even more heart.

Barnburner
04-12-2011, 04:07 AM
I don't see Halger getting white washed Vs. anyone in history at 160.

But I would definitely favour a 2-1 loss at the very least to Monzon. JMO.
I totally agree, Hagler gives anyone a lost at 160Ib.

The only person I give a chance bettering Hagler over a 3 fight series is probably Monzon to be honest, maybe Robinson but, again I think people believe MW Robinson = Welterweight ability Robinson. If this was the case then fair enough but, it isn't.

$Natedatpkid$
04-12-2011, 04:13 AM
You know gorillas are preyed upon by leopards? It may as well be a monkey in there, for all the chance a gorilla has against a cat that size.

Nah they were just the most badass animals I could think of at the time haha

Barnburner
04-12-2011, 04:17 AM
I would have said Gorilla vs Leopard = Leapord UD. Possible late stoppage, yet the gorilla has monster power.

Larry Holmes vs Eaarnie Shavers.

$Natedatpkid$
04-12-2011, 07:37 AM
I would have said Gorilla vs Leopard = Leapord UD. Possible late stoppage, yet the gorilla has monster power.

Larry Holmes vs Eaarnie Shavers.

haha That be some nasty ass ***** to watch too. I'd love to see the gorilla just grip the motha****er up and throw em 30 feet away haha. Them tigers got the endurance but if that motha****er can grip em up their done!

Barnburner
04-12-2011, 07:48 AM
haha That be some nasty ass ***** to watch too. I'd love to see the gorilla just grip the motha****er up and throw em 30 feet away haha. Them tigers got the endurance but if that motha****er can grip em up their done!
Look what I found haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP-6wG_wZ8A

The_Demon
04-12-2011, 08:06 AM
Id favour Monzon too win 2 of a 3 fight series,each fight being very close and going the distance obviously,difficult one though,anyone feel they might cancel each other out completely and the fight would be slightly dull?

$Natedatpkid$
04-12-2011, 08:14 AM
Look what I found haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP-6wG_wZ8A

hahaha too bad that wasn't real. It was still pretty dope though. I love the one comment I saw on there "thats called rape in some states" hahah that had me dyin'.

New England
04-12-2011, 09:22 AM
monzon makes it boring and would be able to be effective with his jab at a slightly greater distance. marv might dial it up late and make it a bit more fun, but monzon had the art deflating a fight down to a science

contrary to popular theory i dont think hagler would simply try and grind his way inside the way briscoe did on monzon.
he could do a lot more than that
he would be quicker to the punch than monzon at a medium distance as well, where he was a very good puncher and very underated in his subtleties about slipping punches


i think hagler tries to go in and out and use his legs
throw combinations
and then get back outside again and get back to hitting angles
if he got too close to monzon he'd run into a better puncher with as sturdy of a chin

he probably could ... but would he need to?




close fight
might even be a split decision depending on who is judging.


but here's a massachusetts guy giving a slight edge to monzon to score more points

fitefanSHO
04-12-2011, 09:41 AM
I see Hagler beating Monzon. Monzon is a very tough fighter with the natural ability to time punches and was very relaxed in the ring but Hagler in my books is the superior athlete and possesses more skill and even more heart.

I like them apples. :boxing:

Hagler > Monzon

them_apples
04-12-2011, 02:11 PM
haha That be some nasty ass ***** to watch too. I'd love to see the gorilla just grip the motha****er up and throw em 30 feet away haha. Them tigers got the endurance but if that motha****er can grip em up their done!

A siberian tiger outweighs a Male Silverback by about 300-400 lbs. It would be no contest.

HaglerSteelChin
04-12-2011, 05:31 PM
As someone said, some Leopards have had their way with Gorillas, but Silver back Gorillas and Fully grown Olive Baboons have kept even Lions at bay. The Olive Baboon fully grown has incredible fans and intelligence, if they fight a leopard they know how to attack the vulnerable areas, a wounded leopard is a useless predator, hence, many will think twice before fighting a formidible opponent even a honey badger and certainly Hyenas.

You see in Youtube there is this back and forth rubbish about how the Hyenas has the advantage in crushing power, their teeth can crush the bones of an elephant. But the Leopard has the claws and agility, but those canine anywhere inside a leopard will be too much.

Monzon vs Hagler, depends which Hagler and which Monzon? Assuming both are in their prime, i would pick Monzon in a 12 round bout, in a 15 round bout that i pick Hagler, because Hagler tends to pick it up in late rounds (antefuermo 1 being one of the few exceptions). It may sound like ducking, but look at the Duran fight, after 12 rounds the actual scorecards had Duran winning, but after Rounds 14 and 15, Hagler nicked the close win on the cards, i see the same pattern with Hagler vs Monzon. Both are granite chins, so i don't see either knocking the other out. Monzon was not knocked down into his 100th fight with Valdez, and hagler suffered one flash knockdown to Roldan(some say it was a slip).

The_Demon
04-12-2011, 05:31 PM
A siberian tiger outweighs a Male Silverback by about 300-400 lbs. It would be no contest.

about 200 pounds difference on average

Pastrano
04-12-2011, 06:11 PM
Monzon is just too tall and has a too good jab for Hagler to get around him. And he'd grab and hold some too, which Hagler doesn't like. Not that he couldn't handle it, but his effectivity would get spurned. Hagler fought best against guys who came right at him. Monzon would box him from the distance. UD for Escopeta.

Besides, if 5'7 Duran could give Hagler fits, why couldn't the 6'1 Monzon (that 5'11 1/2 boxrec and other pages got him at is BS).

Barnburner
04-12-2011, 06:21 PM
As someone said, some Leopards have had their way with Gorillas, but Silver back Gorillas and Fully grown Olive Baboons have kept even Lions at bay. The Olive Baboon fully grown has incredible fans and intelligence, if they fight a leopard they know how to attack the vulnerable areas, a wounded leopard is a useless predator, hence, many will think twice before fighting a formidible opponent even a honey badger and certainly Hyenas.

You see in Youtube there is this back and forth rubbish about how the Hyenas has the advantage in crushing power, their teeth can crush the bones of an elephant. But the Leopard has the claws and agility, but those canine anywhere inside a leopard will be too much.

Monzon vs Hagler, depends which Hagler and which Monzon? Assuming both are in their prime, i would pick Monzon in a 12 round bout, in a 15 round bout that i pick Hagler, because Hagler tends to pick it up in late rounds (antefuermo 1 being one of the few exceptions). It may sound like ducking, but look at the Duran fight, after 12 rounds the actual scorecards had Duran winning, but after Rounds 14 and 15, Hagler nicked the close win on the cards, i see the same pattern with Hagler vs Monzon. Both are granite chins, so i don't see either knocking the other out. Monzon was not knocked down into his 100th fight with Valdez, and hagler suffered one flash knockdown to Roldan(some say it was a slip).
Some say it was a slip?

Anyone with a pair eyes and a brain to compute the information say it was a slip.

Barnburner
04-12-2011, 06:21 PM
Monzon is just too tall and has a too good jab for Hagler to get around him. And he'd grab and hold some too, which Hagler doesn't like. Not that he couldn't handle it, but his effectivity would get spurned. Hagler fought best against guys who came right at him. Monzon would box him from the distance. UD for Escopeta.

Besides, if 5'7 Duran could give Hagler fits, why couldn't the 6'1 Monzon (that 5'11 1/2 boxrec and other pages got him at is BS).
Stop referring to height lol.

Anyway, Hagler was not himself for the Duran fight, and anyone who has studied him knows it.

Pastrano
04-12-2011, 06:30 PM
Stop referring to height lol.

Anyway, Hagler was not himself for the Duran fight, and anyone who has studied him knows it.

Not himself, yeah right. I heard that excuse before. Maybe he just was never that special and Duran exposed that? Don't get me wrong, I like Hagler but some people have turned him into this SUPER LEGEND that he never was.

joseph5620
04-12-2011, 06:32 PM
Stop referring to height lol.

Anyway, Hagler was not himself for the Duran fight, and anyone who has studied him knows it.

You beat me to that.

joseph5620
04-12-2011, 06:37 PM
Not himself, yeah right. I heard that excuse before. Maybe he just was never that special and Duran exposed that? Don't get me wrong, I like Hagler but some people have turned him into this SUPER LEGEND that he never was.






You've said some illogical/stupid/ridiculous things before but if you're going to start questioning the legitimacy of Hagler you've bottomed out.



Just the other day you were calling Jeff fenech an ATG. But Hagler was nothing special? Yeah ok.

IronDanHamza
04-12-2011, 06:53 PM
Not himself, yeah right. I heard that excuse before. Maybe he just was never that special and Duran exposed that? Don't get me wrong, I like Hagler but some people have turned him into this SUPER LEGEND that he never was.

You're selling Hagler incredibley short here.

Marvin Hagler was an exceptional Middleweight and quite frankly an exceptional fighter.

There is no disputing that.

HaglerSteelChin
04-12-2011, 07:04 PM
Some say it was a slip?

Anyone with a pair eyes and a brain to compute the information say it was a slip.

Subjective, it was not a phantom punch, the punch landed on top of the head in an unusual place, could have been ruled a slip, but i have seen worse calls, where there is NO punch landed and yet ruled a knockdown, did u see the punch that knockdown Pacquiao in the first Barrera fight that was scored a knockdown?

HaglerSteelChin
04-12-2011, 07:12 PM
Monzon is just too tall and has a too good jab for Hagler to get around him. And he'd grab and hold some too, which Hagler doesn't like. Not that he couldn't handle it, but his effectivity would get spurned. Hagler fought best against guys who came right at him. Monzon would box him from the distance. UD for Escopeta.

Besides, if 5'7 Duran could give Hagler fits, why couldn't the 6'1 Monzon (that 5'11 1/2 boxrec and other pages got him at is BS).

Some guys like Marcos Geraldo used their height well early against Hagler, but he eventually figuers them out with good timing and going to the easier target the body.

However, I agree Monzon was excellent in using his reach and would have given Hagler problems, but remember another bald fighter called Bennie Briscoe who was the same height as Hagler about 5 feet 9 fought Monzon to a draw, and the fight was in Argentina giving Monzon home advantage, i saw portions of it, but never saw the complete fight available, so won't called it a gift draw as some who saw it said it was.

fitefanSHO
04-12-2011, 09:13 PM
Hagler was what he claimed he was, the greatest Middleweight Champion of all time.

Barnburner
04-13-2011, 05:46 AM
Not himself, yeah right. I heard that excuse before. Maybe he just was never that special and Duran exposed that? Don't get me wrong, I like Hagler but some people have turned him into this SUPER LEGEND that he never was.
Hagler was nervous for that fight and played it safe the whole way through not really taking much risks until the last few rounds where he dominated.

Barnburner
04-13-2011, 05:48 AM
Subjective, it was not a phantom punch, the punch landed on top of the head in an unusual place, could have been ruled a slip, but i have seen worse calls, where there is NO punch landed and yet ruled a knockdown, did u see the punch that knockdown Pacquiao in the first Barrera fight that was scored a knockdown?
Yes I know there are other fights which should not ahave scored a knockdown but, two wrongs don't make a right.

Hagler was bouncing on his toes and as he left the ground a slap/punch to the top/back of the head made him land face first on the canvas. Not a way you would usually see a concious fighter go down from a legitimate knockdown.

The_Demon
04-13-2011, 09:53 PM
Not himself, yeah right. I heard that excuse before. Maybe he just was never that special and Duran exposed that? Don't get me wrong, I like Hagler but some people have turned him into this SUPER LEGEND that he never was.

So you call anybody an idiot if they dont have De la hoya ranked as a top ten all time welterweight,but hagler wasnt anything special?

Cumon he was an incredible fighter,everybody knows this,and that isnt what we are debating here

RubenSonny
04-13-2011, 10:58 PM
You've said some illogical/stupid/ridiculous things before but if you're going to start questioning the legitimacy of Hagler you've bottomed out.



Just the other day you were calling Jeff fenech an ATG. But Hagler was nothing special? Yeah ok.

:lol1::lol1::lol1: that cracked me up.

Steak
04-13-2011, 11:54 PM
Hagler in my eyes is the greatest Middleweight of all time. Not only did he destroy the middleweight competition around at the time, but he even was beating the best in the division before he won the title.

Although Monzon is certainly a tricky customer and an excellent fighter, over I believe that Hagler's immense versatility would win the day. If boxing didnt work, Hagler could throw down at close range. When he needed a break, he could let off and match Monzon with his excellent jab.

I would go for Hagler by great, competitive decision.

Pastrano
04-14-2011, 09:59 AM
Hagler in my eyes is the greatest Middleweight of all time. Not only did he destroy the middleweight competition around at the time, but he even was beating the best in the division before he won the title.

Although Monzon is certainly a tricky customer and an excellent fighter, over I believe that Hagler's immense versatility would win the day. If boxing didnt work, Hagler could throw down at close range. When he needed a break, he could let off and match Monzon with his excellent jab.

I would go for Hagler by great, competitive decision.
And how was the division in his time? It wasn't really the ultimate best, was it?? Hamsho and Minter are the best names on his resume apart from Hearns. Mugabi was never that good, it was obvious also in his later fights. He just had a big punch and was strong as a gorilla.

Barnburner
04-14-2011, 10:07 AM
And how was the division in his time? It wasn't really the ultimate best, was it?? Hamsho and Minter are the best names on his resume apart from Hearns. Mugabi was never that good, it was obvious also in his later fights. He just had a big punch and was strong as a gorilla.
It's obvious Mugabi was destroyed mentally.

Oh turns out Meldrick Taylor sucks just look at him after the JCC fight.
Oh wait Mike Tyson wasn't a destroyer in his prime look at his fights after.
Frazier was never that great look at him after the first Ali fight.

There are countless examples.

Pastrano
04-14-2011, 10:18 AM
It's obvious Mugabi was destroyed mentally.

Oh turns out Meldrick Taylor sucks just look at him after the JCC fight.
Oh wait Mike Tyson wasn't a destroyer in his prime look at his fights after.
Frazier was never that great look at him after the first Ali fight.

There are countless examples.

Your attempt to mock my theory just falls apart. Don't try so hard.:rolleyes:

Barnburner
04-14-2011, 11:11 AM
Your attempt to mock my theory just falls apart. Don't try so hard.:rolleyes:
How about you come up with an intelligent retort instead of just dismissing it?

The_Demon
04-14-2011, 11:33 AM
How about you come up with an intelligent retort instead of just dismissing it?

Im not sure he's capable

them_apples
04-14-2011, 12:21 PM
Mugubi was ruined by Hagler, he was fighting like a madman and was 25-0 gave it his best and still lost.

Pastrano
04-14-2011, 12:23 PM
How about you come up with an intelligent retort instead of just dismissing it?

What retort? I already gave you a justification, I don't need no retort. Hagler fought too many second rate guys, even as a champion. Or non-elite guys if you want. Obelmejias, Sibson, Roldan, Scypion, Antuofermo...they were all solid but not elite. Roldan might've been closest to elite. By ELITE I mean absolutely top notch, outstanding and candidates for the HOF.

Barnburner
04-14-2011, 12:34 PM
What retort? I already gave you a justification, I don't need no retort. Hagler fought too many second rate guys, even as a champion. Or non-elite guys if you want. Obelmejias, Sibson, Roldan, Scypion, Antuofermo...they were all solid but not elite. Roldan might've been closest to elite. By ELITE I mean absolutely top notch, outstanding and candidates for the HOF.
Keyword is "faught" did he duck any Elites, no. Did he defeat all these solid contenders without much trouble: Yes.

Not his fault there wasn't anyone amazing in his era.

Steak
04-14-2011, 12:50 PM
And how was the division in his time? It wasn't really the ultimate best, was it?? Hamsho and Minter are the best names on his resume apart from Hearns. Mugabi was never that good, it was obvious also in his later fights. He just had a big punch and was strong as a gorilla.
I wouldnt say it was the best era ever, but it was solid. After they lost Hagler, his opponents wouldnt just evaporate, they still stuck around in the division and got quality enough wins to receive another title shot. Thats why some opponents fought Hagler more than once...they just kept earning their shots.

also Obelmejas ended up winning a title at 168 years after Hagler beat him twice, Hamsho had wins over Benitez and Czyz(future LHW and Cruiserweight champ), Roldan beat future LHW champ JB Williamson, Duran went on to be MW champ, etc.

so it really wasnt that bad of a division. in fact, people started considering him the best MW ever even in 1982.
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/thumb/a/a4/82May.jpg/180px-82May.jpg
and he still had several title defenses to go, and hadnt even fought Duran or Hearns at this point.


also before he won the title he was actually beating guys that were pretty highly ranked in Monzon's era too, such as Mike Colbert, Bennie Briscoe, Loucif Hamani, Bobby Watts, and Willy Monroe.

joseph5620
04-14-2011, 02:00 PM
What retort? I already gave you a justification, I don't need no retort. Hagler fought too many second rate guys, even as a champion. Or non-elite guys if you want. Obelmejias, Sibson, Roldan, Scypion, Antuofermo...they were all solid but not elite. Roldan might've been closest to elite. By ELITE I mean absolutely top notch, outstanding and candidates for the HOF.

But Jeff Fenech was an all time great in your mind. Was his career more impressive than Hagler's? You just made a thread today on how great you think Johansson was because he knocked out Eddie Machen and Henry Cooper. And now you want to talk about the so called lack of "elite" and HOF" material opponents for Hagler? You also believe Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore were better heavyweights than Foreman and you rank them higher on your pathetic all time heavyweight rankings..


You have no credibility with your obvious agenda.

Scott9945
04-14-2011, 10:16 PM
What retort? I already gave you a justification, I don't need no retort. Hagler fought too many second rate guys, even as a champion. Or non-elite guys if you want. Obelmejias, Sibson, Roldan, Scypion, Antuofermo...they were all solid but not elite. Roldan might've been closest to elite. By ELITE I mean absolutely top notch, outstanding and candidates for the HOF.

It's called cleaning out your division and dominating it for years. That indicates greatness.