View Full Version : Why is Eder Jofre rated so highly?


Steak
04-09-2011, 02:36 PM
In no way am I suggesting he had a bad career, but it seems most people have him as one of the best fighters ever. Talent wise I wont argue against that...but I only rank fighters by the quality of their wins.

His wins over top oppoisiton are Mirandax2, Rollo, Caldwell, Aoki, Medalx2, Caraballo, and Legra.
Vicente Saldivar was very clearly past his best and hadnt fought in over 2 years(on top of having retired once before 6 years previous), and that was his best 'name' win, so Im not sure how much credit Im supposed to give him for that.

also his fight with Legra was controversially viewed by some, but I have no idea since Ive never seen the fight.

hopefully Im not doing a desservice to him, but honestly...he lost against the best bantamweight he faced, only beat 2 title holders, only beat 1 HOF fighter(Saldivar, who I already touched on) and didnt have the longevity of other champions either.

Its not doubt a solid list of the best available to him, but I dont see how he would rank over greats like Whitaker, Leonard or Moore.

IronDanHamza
04-09-2011, 02:53 PM
Eder Jofre may not have had the longevity of a Manuel Ortiz or a Panama Al Brown in terms of reigns.

But what Eder Jofre was, was incredibly dominant.

Just look at his Bantamweight title reign and upcoming to that, he was rarely in a disputable fight. His Bantamweight reign is the epitome of dominance, which is such a difficult task.

He beat a long list of top fighters, Top 10 and Top 5. And blew pretty much all of them away.

And his first fight with Harada was hardly a blowout, and Harada is pretty damn great.

Eder Jofre was one special fighter, to me he is lowest Top 20, like Poet touched on in the other thread. And has a very strong case for being the greatest Bantamweight of all time, an exceptionaly historical division.

He isn't Top 10 IMO, but no question is he Top 20.

Steak
04-09-2011, 03:00 PM
Eder Jofre may not have had the longevity of a Manuel Ortiz or a Panama Al Brown in terms of reigns.

But what Eder Jofre was, was incredibly dominant.

Just look at his Bantamweight title reign and upcoming to that, he was rarely in a disputable fight. His Bantamweight reign is the epitome of dominance, which is such a difficult task.

He beat a long list of top fighters, Top 10 and Top 5. And blew pretty much all of them away.

And his first fight with Harada was hardly a blowout, and Harada is pretty damn great.

Eder Jofre was one special fighter, to me he is lowest Top 20, like Poet touched on in the other thread. And has a very strong case for being the greatest Bantamweight of all time, an exceptionaly historical division.

He isn't Top 10 IMO, but no question is he Top 20.

what is Jofre's best win? at bantamweight and out of his whole career?

IronDanHamza
04-09-2011, 03:16 PM
what is Jofre's best win? at bantamweight and out of his whole career?

In my opinion? Hmmm, I dunno.

Probably Jose Medal 2.

For starters Medal is an underrated fighter. He was considered a Top 5 Bantamweight for a considerable amount of time when there was alot fo talent there.

Medal was coming off a winning streak, was a top fighter and like I have already touched on, the way Jofre dealt with him was incredibly impressive.

An what did Medal do just 4 fights after Jofre blew him away? Beat Fighting F'ing Harada, not only beat him, but stopped him.

Like I have said already, it's how he won which is so special about Jofre. He utterly dominated top fighters during his reign, with very little bother. Jofre is quite possibly the most dominant Bantweight ever, in terms of, how.

That say's so much.

joseph5620
04-09-2011, 03:19 PM
Eder Jofre may not have had the longevity of a Manuel Ortiz or a Panama Al Brown in terms of reigns.

But what Eder Jofre was, was incredibly dominant.

Just look at his Bantamweight title reign and upcoming to that, he was rarely in a disputable fight. His Bantamweight reign is the epitome of dominance, which is such a difficult task.

He beat a long list of top fighters, Top 10 and Top 5. And blew pretty much all of them away.

And his first fight with Harada was hardly a blowout, and Harada is pretty damn great.

Eder Jofre was one special fighter, to me he is lowest Top 20, like Poet touched on in the other thread. And has a very strong case for being the greatest Bantamweight of all time, an exceptionaly historical division.

He isn't Top 10 IMO, but no question is he Top 20.



Dominance is something I really look at when making an all time great list. I've always rated Jofre around 5 which is probably higher than many others would rate him. But the fact that he was so dominant, came out of retirement to win a second title at 37 goes a long way for me. As well as his 72-2 record with one of the longest unbeaten streaks in history. The only losses to another great fighter.



That's similar to how I view Roy Jones je. Jones has tarnished his legacy a bit by fighting to long and has looked horrible in recent years. That has caused many to forget how dominant he was. If he even lost round it was shocking during his prime. And I'm not one who thinks his opposition was as bad as some people make it out to be.

Steak
04-09-2011, 03:20 PM
I think that quality of oppoisiton beaten is much more important than dominance.

and although Medal is certainly a good win, the guy did struggle and lose against a number of unranked guys.

joseph5620
04-09-2011, 03:24 PM
I think that quality of oppoisiton beaten is much more important than dominance.

and although Medal is certainly a good win, the guy did struggle and lose against a number of unranked guys.

It is important. But it's not like Jofre was dominating bums. Jones either.

Steak
04-09-2011, 03:32 PM
It is important. But it's not like Jofre was dominating bums. Jones either.
Which is why Jofre was an excellent fighter.

but p4p top 10 all time? I just dont get that. his best win is over a guy that never found his way to a title, and had multiple losses/draws against journeymen througout his career. Hagler, for example, beat more top competition than Jofre did.

Tyson also dominated his division and cleaned out the best fighters in it without any problems. Doesnt mean hes even necessarily top 10 all time of heavyweights.

IronDanHamza
04-09-2011, 03:37 PM
I think that quality of oppoisiton beaten is much more important than dominance.

and although Medal is certainly a good win, the guy did struggle and lose against a number of unranked guys.

There a long list of people who struggled and lost to weaker competition at this stage of the sport.

What he did do just 4 fights later was beat Fighting Harada. And no one, no one, put a beating like that on Medel.

IronDanHamza
04-09-2011, 03:40 PM
Which is why Jofre was an excellent fighter.

but p4p top 10 all time? I just dont get that. his best win is over a guy that never found his way to a title, and had multiple losses/draws against journeymen througout his career. Hagler, for example, beat more top competition than Jofre did.

Tyson also dominated his division and cleaned out the best fighters in it without any problems. Doesnt mean hes even necessarily top 10 all time of heavyweights.

You think Medel was his best win too? I thought you thought Saldivar was?

Medel is just what I personally think it is, and again, not exactly because of who, but how. Considering what he went on to do.

He didn't win a world title because at that time it was a pretty damn difficult task. The guy stopped Fighting Harada, he did pretty much everything but win a world title.

Let's not compare Tyson's reign to Jofres. I know you admit to knowing little about Jofre but seriously, lets not compare the two. It's an unreasonable comparison.

Steak
04-09-2011, 03:46 PM
You think Medel was his best win too? I thought you thought Salidvar was?

Medel is just what I personally think it is, and again, not exactly because of who, but how. Considering what he went on to do.

He didn't win a world title because at that time it was a pretty damn difficult task. The guy stopped Fighting Harada, he did pretty much everything but win a world title.

Let's not compare Tyson's reign to Jofres. I know you admit to knowing little aboout Jofre but seriously, lets not compare the two.
I never said Saldivar was his best win, but it was certainly the best 'name' on his record...the fact that Saldviar was not in his prime and had not fought in over 2 years definitely brings down the win a lot.

Im just having a hard time seeing how Jofre is top 10 p4p all time when his best wins arent that legendary and he lost to the best fighter he ever faced.

How is he higher than Whitaker, Leonard, Moore, Charles, Pep, Armstrong, Robinson, Duran, Langford and Greb, for starters...

Pastrano
04-10-2011, 11:46 AM
Eder Jofre is a top 10 ATG. You got no case. His only 2 losses are to the same man-Fighting Harada. And both are on points. He destroyed VICENTE SALDIVAR after coming back from retirement and moving up from BW to FW. Who else did that??!:boxing:

He was 37, Saldivar was 30. And don't forget Jose Legra either, that was a very good win.

T.Horton
04-10-2011, 11:57 AM
for some reason I never got into watching fights below fwt. clearly i have been missing out. where can i get some Jofre fights?

Barn
04-10-2011, 12:00 PM
for some reason I never got into watching fights below fwt. clearly i have been missing out. where can i get some Jofre fights?
Just take a trip into the Video Trading Block. Or PM the user NChristo who is a massive Jofre fan and has some things others don't I think.

He doesn't post as much anymore so he may take a while to reply.

T.Horton
04-10-2011, 12:02 PM
Just take a trip into the Video Trading Block. Or PM the user NChristo who is a massive Jofre fan and has some things others don't I think.

He doesn't post as much anymore so he may take a while to reply.thanks, shame about Nchristo. He seems like an encyclopedia.

Steak
04-10-2011, 02:10 PM
Eder Jofre is a top 10 ATG. You got no case. His only 2 losses are to the same man-Fighting Harada. And both are on points. He destroyed VICENTE SALDIVAR after coming back from retirement and moving up from BW to FW. Who else did that??!:boxing:

He was 37, Saldivar was 30. And don't forget Jose Legra either, that was a very good win.
Saldivar had retired 6 years previous and literally had not been in the ring for over 2 years prior to fighting Jofre. Talk about ring rust. You flat out can NOT say that he was anywhere near prime, especially seeing as he went straight back into retirement after the one fight with Jofre.

Jofre seems to be highly ranked simply because of his dominance, but in reality he didnt beat as many top ranked opponents as someone like Monzon, Halger, or Napoles for example.
And his dominance ended when he fought his best opponent: Fighting Harada.

crold1
04-10-2011, 02:16 PM
Saldivar had retired 6 years previous and literally had not been in the ring for over 2 years prior to fighting Jofre. Talk about ring rust. You flat out can NOT say that he was anywhere near prime, especially seeing as he went straight back into retirement after the one fight with Jofre.

Jofre seems to be highly ranked simply because of his dominance, but in reality he didnt beat as many top ranked opponents as someone like Monzon, Halger, or Napoles for example.
And his dominance ended when he fought his best opponent: Fighting Harada.

There are a lot of people who thought he got hometowned in both those fights. I think one also has to consider the comeback, which culminated with the Featherweight crown and a high quality Legra win. Jofre was a technical genius who beat a lot of guys who might otherwise have been champion.

From my Bantamweight Piece (http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-bantamweights-all-time-top-ten--21822):

1) Eder Jofre (1957-76)

*Record: 72-2-4, 50 KO*

*World Champion 1960-65, 8 Defenses*

*Batamweight Titlists/Champions Faced - 2: (Johnny Caldwell, Fighting Harada)*

Comparing a fighter***8217;s skill level to Sugar Ray Robinson is usually a great way to start an argument***8230;or get a laugh. No one laughs when the comparison is made to Jofre. The greatest fighter ever produced by Brazil by a stretch, Jofre dominated the Bantamweight division with precision, technique, and power. Outside a pair of draws in his first ten fights with the more experienced Ernesto Miranda, and another in 1958 versus Ruben Caceres, Jofre***8217;s march to the title was clean. In 1960, he decisioned and stopped Miranda to erase both draws and then knocked out veteran Jose Medel in a title eliminator. Two fights later, Eloy Sanchez was knocked out in six and the reign was on. Johnny Caldwell was the British-recognized champion, coming off a pair of wins over former world champ Alphonse Halimi; Jofre dismissed him in ten. Medel attempted revenge and got only to round six. Katsutoshi Aoki had lost only one 35 contests and was carted out in three while a 39-0-1 Bernard Caraballo was dusted in seven. It took hostile turf, a body struggling with the weight limit, and a genuine all-time great to knock Jofre off the throne, all of those things coming together in a title defense versus Fighting Harada in 1965. A split decision begat an obvious rematch, Jofre again finding defeat in May 1966. It would be his end***8230;for a time.

Why He***8217;s Here: Jofre of course would return for a jaw dropping run at Featherweight in 1969, winning another World title and stamping his legacy complete. Few fighters ever truly have an aura of invincibility. Mike Tyson had it for a while in recent years; Roy Jones did as well. Such was the case with Jofre. He looked unbeatable at his best, by and large because he was. While he didn***8217;t face the deep pool of former champions others on this list did, or post the title numbers of others, his title challengers were by and large excellent and excellently vanquished and his reign was just shy of double digit defenses. Jofre is the sum of his parts and the sum of a boxing knowledge which had frightening consequences for the Bantamweights of his time. Jofre was inducted to the IBHOF in 1992.

He was and is the greatest the Bantamweights ever produced.

Steak
04-10-2011, 02:28 PM
There are a lot of people who thought he got hometowned in both those fights. I think one also has to consider the comeback, which culminated with the Featherweight crown and a high quality Legra win. Jofre was a technical genius who beat a lot of guys who might otherwise have been champion.

From my Bantamweight Piece (http://www.boxingscene.com/-top-25-bantamweights-all-time-top-ten--21822):

1) Eder Jofre (1957-76)

*Record: 72-2-4, 50 KO*

*World Champion 1960-65, 8 Defenses*

*Batamweight Titlists/Champions Faced - 2: (Johnny Caldwell, Fighting Harada)*

Comparing a fighter***8217;s skill level to Sugar Ray Robinson is usually a great way to start an argument***8230;or get a laugh. No one laughs when the comparison is made to Jofre. The greatest fighter ever produced by Brazil by a stretch, Jofre dominated the Bantamweight division with precision, technique, and power. Outside a pair of draws in his first ten fights with the more experienced Ernesto Miranda, and another in 1958 versus Ruben Caceres, Jofre***8217;s march to the title was clean. In 1960, he decisioned and stopped Miranda to erase both draws and then knocked out veteran Jose Medel in a title eliminator. Two fights later, Eloy Sanchez was knocked out in six and the reign was on. Johnny Caldwell was the British-recognized champion, coming off a pair of wins over former world champ Alphonse Halimi; Jofre dismissed him in ten. Medel attempted revenge and got only to round six. Katsutoshi Aoki had lost only one 35 contests and was carted out in three while a 39-0-1 Bernard Caraballo was dusted in seven. It took hostile turf, a body struggling with the weight limit, and a genuine all-time great to knock Jofre off the throne, all of those things coming together in a title defense versus Fighting Harada in 1965. A split decision begat an obvious rematch, Jofre again finding defeat in May 1966. It would be his end***8230;for a time.

Why He***8217;s Here: Jofre of course would return for a jaw dropping run at Featherweight in 1969, winning another World title and stamping his legacy complete. Few fighters ever truly have an aura of invincibility. Mike Tyson had it for a while in recent years; Roy Jones did as well. Such was the case with Jofre. He looked unbeatable at his best, by and large because he was. While he didn***8217;t face the deep pool of former champions others on this list did, or post the title numbers of others, his title challengers were by and large excellent and excellently vanquished and his reign was just shy of double digit defenses. Jofre is the sum of his parts and the sum of a boxing knowledge which had frightening consequences for the Bantamweights of his time. Jofre was inducted to the IBHOF in 1992.

He was and is the greatest the Bantamweights ever produced.
I actually did read your piece on him before making this thread. and I have no issue with his ATG status whatsoever. but top 10 p4p sounds very excessive, simply because there have been a LOT of very talented fighters throughout history.

Also Ive read the Legra win was controversial, although I dont know how truth there is in that.

crold1
04-10-2011, 02:33 PM
I actually did read your piece on him before making this thread. and I have no issue with his ATG status whatsoever. but top 10 p4p sounds very excessive, simply because there have been a LOT of very talented fighters throughout history.

Also Ive read the Legra win was controversial, although I dont know how truth there is in that.

That's fine. I have yet to put together a top ten all time. I think Jofre would make it but there are certainly others with greater comp. Sometimes, the sum is greater than the parts. I think being the GOAT at Bantam, an almost universal praise, is a BIG plus. Think of what, who, has been at Bantam. The GOAT at each of the original eight has a top ten case on that merit alone IMO.

It is, in my opinion, a mistake to lock in a single standard for greatness. Boxing isn't like other sports. Greatness can come in a wild varaition of forms: divisional dominance, murderer's row opp, defensive genius, offensive tear...

the more I study, the more I learn and appreciate all the ways boxing can be looked at.

Steak
04-10-2011, 02:48 PM
Ive always considered greatness to be almost exclusively based on who you beat, since its not the most difficult thing(for an ATG) to look dominant against weaker opposition.

Ive just seen other fighters with such better accomplishments than Jofre. He only has one win over a HOF fighter, and Saldivar was obviously past prime. and other fighters beat more top competition in their title reigns than Jofre too.

also I dont consider Bantamweight to be as historically stacked as say Lightweight, Welterweight, or Middleweight.

GJC
04-10-2011, 05:31 PM
I think because Jofre has often been overlooked maybe some overcompensate.
I personally wouldn't have him top 10 probably even 20 but the sports been going a long time with a lot of fighters so that's not to say I don't rate him highly

The_Demon
04-10-2011, 09:46 PM
I think because Jofre has often been overlooked maybe some overcompensate.
I personally wouldn't have him top 10 probably even 20 but the sports been going a long time with a lot of fighters so that's not to say I don't rate him highly

I think this is correct,similar too the way McCallum is viewed now after being underrated for some years

I dont have a solid list but i know Jofre wouldnt make my top 10