View Full Version : Teddy Atlas's 13 Greatest P4P Fighters Of All Time!


Perfect Plex
04-06-2011, 02:03 PM
1.Ray Robinson
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Willie Pep
4.Benny Leonard
5.Sam Langford
6.Harry Greb
7.Mickey Walker
8.Muhammad Ali
9.Roberto Duran
10.Gene Tunney
11.Joe Louis
12.Jack Johnson
13.Carlos Monzon

Flo_Raiden
04-06-2011, 02:05 PM
Great List from Atlas.:fing02:

BattlingNelson
04-06-2011, 02:12 PM
This is actually an very good list.

Making a list is always difficult and highly subjective.

Perhaps Johnson and Monzon is placed too high and I'd probably have Archie Moore on the list and Ray Leonard as well.

IronDanHamza
04-06-2011, 02:15 PM
Love that love for Monzon!

But yeah he's way too high :lol1:

NChristo
04-06-2011, 02:52 PM
A lot better then pretty much all lists I've seen from a lot of writers and trainers, I'm suprised :lol1:, too be honest I was expecting it to be kind of poor at first.

ShinCrossOver
04-06-2011, 03:09 PM
No luv for Roy Jones Jr?

Making a list like this is definitely hard and very subjective though.

BattlingNelson
04-06-2011, 03:12 PM
No luv for Roy Jones Jr?

Making a list like this is definitely hard and very subjective though.
Roy Jones had the talent to be on the list, but he failed to live up to his potential. No way his resumé warrants a place among these guys.

REDRUM619
04-06-2011, 03:16 PM
great list monxon might be to high though

SCtrojansbaby
04-06-2011, 03:20 PM
Roy Jones had the talent to be on the list, but he failed to live up to his potential. No way his resumé warrants a place among these guys.


LMAO that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard

BattlingNelson
04-06-2011, 03:30 PM
LMAO that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard
Really? What's so dumb about it?

SCtrojansbaby
04-06-2011, 03:45 PM
Really? What's so dumb about it?


What isn't dumb about it?

Two words describe Roy's career Unprecedented Dominance

Went from middleweight to heavyweight winning championships every stop along the way. Dominated 2 hall of famers in their prime(yes Hopkins was in his prime). Destroyed several other very good champions such as Griffin Hill McCallum Ruiz Gonzalez Harding. Lost about 25 rounds total in his first 49 fights.

ShinCrossOver
04-06-2011, 03:50 PM
Roy Jones had the talent to be on the list, but he failed to live up to his potential. No way his resumé warrants a place among these guys.


LMAO that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard

I am with SCtrojansbaby here.

I can understand if it is debateable whether he should be placed in this list or not but "no way"? That's a really harsh considering Roy's accomplishments:

1. Middleweight, Super middleweight, Light heavyweight and Heavyweight Champion
2. Only boxer in history to start his career as a junior middleweight and win the HW title in 106 years
3. First Former Middleweight Champion to win a HW title
4. Held WBC, WBA, IBF, IBO, NABF, WBF, and IBA light heavyweight championships - a record seven belts at the same time
5. Named fighter of the decade for the 1990's by Boxing Writers Association of America.

*all these stats were taken from Wiki. Don't kill me if something is wrong.

bklynboy
04-06-2011, 04:01 PM
I am with SCtrojansbaby here.

I can understand if it is debateable whether he should be placed in this list or not but "no way"? That's a really harsh considering Roy's accomplishments:

1. Middleweight, Super middleweight, Light heavyweight and Heavyweight Champion
2. Only boxer in history to start his career as a junior middleweight and win the HW title in 106 years
3. First Former Middleweight Champion to win a HW title
4. Held WBC, WBA, IBF, IBO, NABF, WBF, and IBA light heavyweight championships - a record seven belts at the same time
5. Named fighter of the decade for the 1990's by Boxing Writers Association of America.

*all these stats were taken from Wiki. Don't kill me if something is wrong.


I lot of people, and I count myself amoung them, don't think that a belt holder is the same thing as a champion.

For as good as Roy Jones was - and I think he was phenomenal - he never was the Heavyweight champion of the world. He won the WBA(?) belt from Ruiz. You can't compare winning a belt, being one of 3 or *7* title holders, to be the same as being the champion.

BattlingNelson
04-06-2011, 04:03 PM
What isn't dumb about it?

Two words describe Roy's career Unprecedented Dominance

Went from middleweight to heavyweight winning championships every stop along the way. Dominated 2 hall of famers in their prime(yes Hopkins was in his prime). Destroyed several other very good champions such as Griffin Hill McCallum Ruiz Gonzalez Harding. Lost about 25 rounds total in his first 49 fights.
Well at 168 Jones NEVER fought another top 3 opponent after he fought Toney. He fought these guys:

Thornton (unranked)
Pazienza (LOL)
Byrd (past it)
Sosa (a never was)
Brannon (a 16 fight veteran)
Lucas (non threat)

This means that these deserving guys are missing on his resumé:

Nunn
Benn
Eubank
Collins
Barkley
Cordoba
Littles
Van Horn
Liles
Nardiello
Close
Rocchigianni
Nicotra


Unprecedented dominace? I think not.

At LHW he didnt fight Michalsczewski and at HW he sought out the weakest link in Ruiz (still impressive win though).

And then when he finally faced fighters with a good wallop we all know what happened.

SCtrojansbaby
04-06-2011, 04:16 PM
Well at 168 Jones NEVER fought another top 3 opponent after he fought Toney. He fought these guys:

Thornton (unranked)
Pazienza (LOL)
Byrd (past it)
Sosa (a never was)
Brannon (a 16 fight veteran)
Lucas (non threat)

This means that these deserving guys are missing on his resumé:

Nunn
Benn
Eubank
Collins
Barkley
Cordoba
Littles
Van Horn
Liles
Nardiello
Close
Rocchigianni
Nicotra


Unprecedented dominace? I think not.

At LHW he didnt fight Michalsczewski and at HW he sought out the weakest link in Ruiz (still impressive win though).

And then when he finally faced fighters with a good wallop we all know what happened.


So the #1 pound for pound fighter is supposed to leave the country to fight others, one of Roy's most underrated wins is against Julio Cesar Gonzalez who 2 years after Roy destroyed him would be the first guy to beat Dariuz.

Show me a link where those guys are willing to come to America to fight Roy. Not to mention most of them weren't even contenders while Roy was at 168.

ShinCrossOver
04-06-2011, 04:24 PM
LMAO that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard

I lot of people, and I count myself amoung them, don't think that a belt holder is the same thing as a champion.

For as good as Roy Jones was - and I think he was phenomenal - he never was the Heavyweight champion of the world. He won the WBA(?) belt from Ruiz. You can't compare winning a belt, being one of 3 or *7* title holders, to be the same as being the champion.

oh i agree with this.

i guess i should have written WBA champion/title holder.

joseph5620
04-06-2011, 04:32 PM
Well at 168 Jones NEVER fought another top 3 opponent after he fought Toney. He fought these guys:

Thornton (unranked)
Pazienza (LOL)
Byrd (past it)
Sosa (a never was)
Brannon (a 16 fight veteran)
Lucas (non threat)

This means that these deserving guys are missing on his resumé:

Nunn
Benn
Eubank
Collins
Barkley
Cordoba
Littles
Van Horn
Liles
Nardiello
Close
Rocchigianni
Nicotra


Unprecedented dominace? I think not.

At LHW he didnt fight Michalsczewski and at HW he sought out the weakest link in Ruiz (still impressive win though).

And then when he finally faced fighters with a good wallop we all know what happened.

If he was a "non threat" why did Kessler fight him 10 years after Jones did? It's funny that you laugh at Panzienza while putting names like Van Horn and Littles as fighters Jones supposedly ducked.

BattlingNelson
04-06-2011, 04:37 PM
So the #1 pound for pound fighter is supposed to leave the country to fight others, one of Roy's most underrated wins is against Julio Cesar Gonzalez who 2 years after Roy destroyed him would be the first guy to beat Dariuz.

Show me a link where those guys are willing to come to America to fight Roy. Not to mention most of them weren't even contenders while Roy was at 168.
Those guys was ALL contenders and the point was that Jones didnt fight them. He fought Paz though.....

So saying that he showed unprecendented dominace is just stupid because he didnt.

Barnburner
04-06-2011, 04:45 PM
A very good list my only quam would be the rating of Jack Johnson.

I really like the inclusion of Mickey Walker.

The Surgeon
04-06-2011, 04:50 PM
Not my ideal list but better than most u read from these boxing guys and WAAAY better than i expected from Teddy!

Steak
04-06-2011, 05:08 PM
If he was a "non threat" why did Kessler fight him 10 years after Jones did? It's funny that you laugh at Panzienza while putting names like Van Horn and Littles as fighters Jones supposedly ducked.
Lucas was irrelevant at 168 until 5 years later. thats a big gap. Not really a win worth writing home about.

I dont care for what reason Roy 'didnt want to fight' those other top 5 guys, he could have and it would have boosted his legacy. thats all there is to it. Same with Darius Michaseljfhdafhkdfpowski. It would have definitely helped his legacy had they fought.


anyhow the only real problem I have with Atlas' list is how high Johnson is. no justification for that.

joseph5620
04-06-2011, 05:16 PM
Lucas was irrelevant at 168 until 5 years later. thats a big gap. Not really a win worth writing home about.
I dont care for what reason Roy 'didnt want to fight' those other top 5 guys, he could have and it would have boosted his legacy. thats all there is to it. Same with Darius Michaseljfhdafhkdfpowski. It would have definitely helped his legacy had they fought.


anyhow the only real problem I have with Atlas' list is how high Johnson is. no justification for that.

Whether he was relevant or not doesn't determine whether he was non "threatening" which was the issue. I don't believe Lucas miraculously transformed into a different fighter after he lost to Jones. I know that's a convenient thing to say if you want to discredit Jones opponents but it's not likely.

BattlingNelson
04-06-2011, 05:21 PM
Whether he was relevant or not doesn't determine whether he was non "threatening" which was the issue. I don't believe Lucas miraculously transformed into a different fighter after he lost to Jones. I know that's a convenient thing to say if you want to discredit Jones opponents but it's not likely.
Wheter Lucas was or was not a 'non-threath' is IMO irrelevant. He doesnt make or break the point I made.

Steak
04-06-2011, 05:34 PM
Whether he was relevant or not doesn't determine whether he was non "threatening" which was the issue. I don't believe Lucas miraculously transformed into a different fighter after he lost to Jones. I know that's a convenient thing to say if you want to discredit Jones opponents but it's not likely.
oh come on, Jones has far more credentials than pretending that Lucas was a good win. Fact of the matter is that he was not a top fighter in the division when Roy beat him, and even at his best was lucky to get his hands on a vacant belt.

Roys win over Jorge Fernando Castro is more significant than the stinking Lucas win.

SBleeder
04-06-2011, 07:03 PM
I'm not sure why people are fussing over Monzon being on the list. If anything, #13 is too low. Other than Greb and Robinson, there were no better middleweights in history IMO.

Great list from Atlas. I was expecting 6 or 7 heavyweights.

Steak
04-06-2011, 07:04 PM
I'm not sure why people are fussing over Monzon being on the list. If anything, #13 is too low. Other than Greb and Robinson, there were no better middleweights in history IMO.

Great list from Atlas. I was expecting 6 or 7 heavyweights.

I consider Hagler better, personally.

IronDanHamza
04-06-2011, 07:08 PM
I'm not sure why people are fussing over Monzon being on the list. If anything, #13 is too low. Other than Greb and Robinson, there were no better middleweights in history IMO.

Great list from Atlas. I was expecting 6 or 7 heavyweights.

In terms of Middleweight's, absolutely.

But in terms of P4P greatness, I don't think he belongs as high as Atlas has him.

I would love to agree with you, I really would. But IMO, he's not a Top 15 ATG as Atlas believes.

$Natedatpkid$
04-06-2011, 07:56 PM
13 is such a random number. Why not make it 15 to add my boy Pernell Whitaker :weed5:

IronDanHamza
04-06-2011, 08:02 PM
I consider Hagler better, personally.

:davil2: :davil2: :davil2:

Steak
04-06-2011, 08:03 PM
:davil2: :davil2: :davil2:

lets argue. Im bored.

SCtrojansbaby
04-06-2011, 08:07 PM
I lol at people who ***** about every fighter of the past 20 years not having a resume but then argue for Hagler when his resume is inferior compared to Roy or Chavez or a lot of other guys. But I guess older=better.

IronDanHamza
04-06-2011, 08:08 PM
lets argue. Im bored.

:lol1: I'm just playing. I have no issue with someone having Hagler above Monzon.

Kinda slow tonight, right?

I really don't have the energy to have a debate involving a fighter I am emotionally attached to right now anyway even if I wanted to :lol1:

Steak
04-06-2011, 08:09 PM
:lol1: I'm just playing. I have no issue with someone having Hagler above Monzon.

Kinda slow tonight, right?

I really don't have the energy to have a debate involving a fighter I am emotionally attached to right now anyway even if I wanted to :lol1:

gotcha. guess Im forced to actually get work done now instead of slack off...dammit.

joseph5620
04-06-2011, 08:16 PM
Wheter Lucas was or was not a 'non-threath' is IMO irrelevant. He doesnt make or break the point I made.

The point you made was that he was a non threat. So it's not irrelevant. And you still didn't answer the question about Kessler fighting him 10 years later. So it does break your point.That doesn't say much for Kessler defending his belt against a fighter like Lucas

goblin213
04-06-2011, 11:42 PM
Good list but why no Ezzard Charles in the top 10?

Turok2
04-06-2011, 11:48 PM
where would pac rank ?

Marchegiano
04-07-2011, 12:41 AM
1.Ray Robinson
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Willie Pep
4.Benny Leonard
5.Sam Langford
6.Harry Greb
7.Mickey Walker
8.Muhammad Ali
9.Roberto Duran
10.Gene Tunney
11.Joe Louis
12.Jack Johnson
13.Carlos Monzon

Teddy's the man. I always at least understand his perspective.

Spartacus Sully
04-07-2011, 01:39 AM
Id say fitzsimmons should be on there other then that its a good list.

BattlingNelson
04-07-2011, 03:25 AM
The point you made was that he was a non threat. So it's not irrelevant. And you still didn't answer the question about Kessler fighting him 10 years later. So it does break your point.That doesn't say much for Kessler defending his belt against a fighter like Lucas
The point I made was that Jones didnt display total domination of the division. Since you say my point is broken I take it as you think that Jones exhibited total domination despite him not fighting any top guys at SMW besides Toney.

Odd point you have if I may say so. I mean how can you display total domination without fighting the best???

Spartacus Sully
04-07-2011, 03:35 AM
The point I made was that Jones didnt display total domination of the division. Since you say my point is broken I take it as you think that Jones exhibited total domination despite him not fighting any top guys at SMW besides Toney.

Odd point you have if I may say so. I mean how can you display total domination without fighting the best???

it seems that your argueing that he didnt exhibit total domination

while the other guy is arguing that lucas wasnt a non threat....and for some reason he seems to feel if he can disprove that lucas was a non threat....then hes some how successfully disproved everything you said.

i believe its called a straw man argument.

BattlingNelson
04-07-2011, 03:38 AM
it seems that your argueing that he didnt exhibit total domination

while the other guy is arguing that lucas wasnt a non threat....and for some reason he seems to feel if he can disprove that lucas was a non threat....then hes some how successfully disproved everything you said.

i believe its called a straw man argument.
So this guy is debating a minor point in my post, arguing that this minor point is faulty and because it is allegedly faulty the entire post is faulty? Lol.

Spartacus Sully
04-07-2011, 03:40 AM
So this guy is debating a minor point in my post, arguing that this minor point is faulty and because it is allegedly faulty the entire post is faulty? Lol.

yeah, its probly best just to agree that lucas was a threat and maintain that rjj didnt fight half the people he could or should of for top 15 p4p status along with the other points you made about the fighters he did fight.

unless you really think lucas was a non threat...then go ahead and cotinue argueing that.......but every one should realize that as you allready said....

"Wheter Lucas was or was not a 'non-threath' is IMO irrelevant. He doesnt make or break the point I made."



id probly also have joe gans in my top 15.

BattlingNelson
04-07-2011, 03:46 AM
yeah, its probly best just to agree that lucas was a threat and maintain that rjj didnt fight half the people he could or should of for top 15 p4p status along with the other points you made about the fighters he did fight.

unless you really think lucas was a non threat...then go ahead and cotinue argueing that.......but every one should realize that as you allready said....

"Wheter Lucas was or was not a 'non-threath' is IMO irrelevant. He doesnt make or break the point I made."
Precisely. :fing02:

Barnburner
04-07-2011, 07:59 AM
:davil2: :davil2: :davil2:
war hagler!

Barnburner
04-07-2011, 08:00 AM
Good list but why no Ezzard Charles in the top 10?
I have Chalrles at 5 on my personal list and agree with you.

How can he not by a top 10 ATG?

GF of Boxing
04-07-2011, 09:09 AM
I agree. I have Roy at least number 15. And he is one of my favorite fighters. He was fighter of the decade in the 90's. He dominated on top from 93-04! That is almost 11 years on top of the mountain. How many fighters in history has stayed on top that long? There is not a lot of people on that list.

Rockin'
04-07-2011, 09:35 AM
The Boxing world is the HARDEST to Please.

What of Joe Louis' resume? The bum of the month club?

A fighter will destroy himself chasing the hardest fights possible every time out. They pay a price for every round he battles that leave us in adjulation. I've always believed that a pound for pound rating was not only judged on who you did'nt fight as for the amazing things that did happen when you did fight somebody.

I had read in this thread how Frankie Liles and Darrin Vanhorne were not even considered threats. While Vanhornes youth was interesting in his strategic and well mapped road to a title, his skill was good but it lacked. Frankie Liles could fight, he was out of Michigan and I remember watching him in the amatuers and at the Palace coming up.

Look at anybodies resume and 99.9% of them anybody could punch holes through. The final factor is what they did do when really stepping in against tough competition. The only reason most retire undefeated is because they never fought anybody. A loss, even a ko loss, is not neccesarily the end of the road................Rockin':boxing:

IronDanHamza
04-07-2011, 11:59 AM
war hagler!

:lol1:

:fing26:

IronDanHamza
04-07-2011, 12:04 PM
I have Chalrles at 5 on my personal list and agree with you.

How can he not by a top 10 ATG?

I'm loving the love for Charles.

He really has one of the most incredible resume's in history.

GJC
04-07-2011, 12:22 PM
Solid enough list, you can always argue the life out of these, Off the top of my head I would make a case for Wilde, Gans and Moore to be in there personally

joseph5620
04-07-2011, 03:54 PM
it seems that your argueing that he didnt exhibit total domination

while the other guy is arguing that lucas wasnt a non threat....and for some reason he seems to feel if he can disprove that lucas was a non threat....then hes some how successfully disproved everything you said.
i believe its called a straw man argument.

That's not what I said. In fact I highlighted what I was referring to which should have made it pretty simple to understand. But I don't expect posters like you, who claim that George Foreman couldn't punch hard, to demonstrate any type of reading comprehension.

Rockin'
04-07-2011, 04:08 PM
Roy Jones was da man..................Rockin':boxing:

joseph5620
04-07-2011, 04:14 PM
So this guy is debating a minor point in my post, arguing that this minor point is faulty and because it is allegedly faulty the entire post is faulty? Lol.

Yet you'll tell anybody that listens how fighters like Mikkel Kessler, Bute or Ottke are great which was my point. A point that you clearly dodge. You criticize Jones for fighting Lucas but praise Kessler for doing it 10 years later. And who has Bute ever beaten that impresses you so much? Curious since you're into breaking down Jones opponents.

You can think whatever you want about Jones. But don't pretend you're being objective or intelligent when you're breaking it down. James Toney was the best Supermiddlweight that Jones could have fought. Jones dominated Toney which is a lot more impressive than beating Littles or the other ridiculous names you listed.

BattlingNelson
04-07-2011, 05:07 PM
Yet you'll tell anybody that listens how fighters like Mikkel Kessler, Bute or Ottke are great which was my point. A point that you clearly dodge. You criticize Jones for fighting Lucas but praise Kessler for doing it 10 years later. And who has Bute ever beaten that impresses you so much? Curious since you're into breaking down Jones opponents.

You can think whatever you want about Jones. But don't pretend you're being objective or intelligent when you're breaking it down. James Toney was the best Supermiddlweight that Jones could have fought. Jones dominated Toney which is a lot more impressive than beating Littles or the other ridiculous names you listed.
I never argued that Kessler, Bute or Ottke are in the top 13 so I guess you are mistaking me for someone else.

And Toney is a great win. I never said anything else. Arguably it's the best win Jones have. What my point is, which you so far has failed to understand, is that there was a ton of challengers out there worthy of a shot at Jones. Challengers which would make Jones resume look much better had he fought them instead of Lucas, Paz etc.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 01:27 AM
That's not what I said. In fact I highlighted what I was referring to which should have made it pretty simple to understand. But I don't expect posters like you, who claim that George Foreman couldn't punch hard, to demonstrate any type of reading comprehension.

soooo you agree that roy jones jr did not have unpresidented dominance and should not be in a top 13 p4p list? regardless of how any one feels about lucas.

and foreman pushed hard......but couldnt punch for **** after he fought chuvalo.....giving away speed and distance for raw power....he smothered opponents into tko's he did not ko them.

Vadrigar.
04-08-2011, 01:39 AM
and foreman pushed hard......but couldnt punch for **** after he fought chuvalo.....giving away speed and distance for raw power....he smothered opponents into tko's he did not ko them.

That's silly, Foreman was one of if not the hardest heavyweight puncher. It's ridiculous to call Foreman's punches "pushes". You can clearly see him punching his opponents. Well maybe Foreman pushed hard to keep Frazier of him, quite different to a punch don't you think?

George Chuvalo had one of the best chins, which is why Foreman couldn't KO him. Look at what he did to elite fighters like Frazier And Norton.

MRBOOMER
04-08-2011, 01:41 AM
No luv for Roy Jones Jr?

Making a list like this is definitely hard and very subjective though.

He won't ever be great as he was most he didnt fight everyone everyday like most of these guys did and showed his ruggedness that and most of the time one of these is made it's all old school fighters from the hey day of boxing Now if he could make a current one maybe he's on there.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 01:46 AM
That's silly, Foreman was one of if not the hardest heavyweight puncher. It's ridiculous to call Foreman's punches "pushes". You can clearly see him punching his opponents.

George Chuvalo had one of the best chins, which is why Foreman couldn't KO him. Look at what he did to elite fighters like Frazier And Norton.

yeah he just pushed them around. the only way he could ko some one was by pushing them to the left with his slow no distance punches and then pushing them to the right with one of his slow no distance punches as thy were moving to the left.....giving him kind of a counter effect with the force of both weights combining at impact..like with lyle.....or just continually knocing them off balance by punching with their head movement or the same counter like effect by punching against their head movement....like with fraizer.

vrs chuvalo he was using distance he was using timing and speed he had a great jab and he was messing chuvalo up....if not for his chin chuvalo probly would have been ko'ed and not just tko'ed.

Scott9945
04-08-2011, 01:50 AM
soooo you agree that roy jones jr did not have unpresidented dominance and should not be in a top 13 p4p list? regardless of how any one feels about lucas.

and foreman pushed hard......but couldnt punch for **** after he fought chuvalo.....giving away speed and distance for raw power....he smothered opponents into tko's he did not ko them.

Yeah, try telling that to Frazier, Norton, or Cooney. They weren't what you can call "smothered". They were hammered by the most powerful man in boxing history.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 01:51 AM
Yeah, try telling that to Frazier, Norton, or Cooney. They weren't what you can call "smothered". They were hammered by the most powerful man in boxing history.

if they were hammered why were they standing and still willing to go when they were counted as a tko?

i havnt watched much of an old foreman, so i dont know against cooney.....he did have skills that he used at one point in time perhaps on his comeback he reverted back to them instead of relying on brute force. Ill have to check out the cooney fight when i get home.

Vadrigar.
04-08-2011, 01:53 AM
yeah he just pushed them around. the only way he could ko some one was by pushing them to the left with his slow no distance punches and then pushing them to the right with one of his slow no distance punches as thy were moving to the left.....giving him kind of a counter effect with the force of both weights combining at impact.

:lol1: It's due to the fact that each of his punches were delivered with power. This absurd explanation doesn't reflect footage of his knockouts. Pushing his opponents around isn't going to cause much damage, but Foreman clearly stunned his and hurt them.

Scott9945
04-08-2011, 01:55 AM
if they were hammered why were they standing and still willing to go when they were counted as a tko?

All three of them were obliterated and in absolutely no condition to continue. Does a ten count mean that much to you? You're really reaching here.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 01:57 AM
:lol1: It's due to the fact that each of his punches were delivered with power. This absurd explanation doesn't reflect footage of his knockouts. Pushing his opponents around isn't going to cause much damage, but Foreman clearly stunned his opponents and hurt them.

when you impact some ones head the head moves before the brain causing the brain to hit the walls of the head causing the person to go unconscious. when you push someone, the head the brain they all move as one.....there is no brain slamming into the side of the head causing some one to go unconscious when your punches only push.

how many times did foreman leave his opponent on the ground unconscious for the whole 10?

26 times he actually got a KO. he could punch.......but one hardest hitting heavy weights...LOL

MRBOOMER
04-08-2011, 01:57 AM
In terms of Middleweight's, absolutely.

But in terms of P4P greatness, I don't think he belongs as high as Atlas has him.

I would love to agree with you, I really would. But IMO, he's not a Top 15 ATG as Atlas believes.

It's prbly cause of how he won the title and then kept it so long I figured that's why he's there.

Vadrigar.
04-08-2011, 01:58 AM
All three of them were obliterated and in absolutely no condition to continue. Does a ten count mean that much to you? You're really reaching here.

There isn't much distinction between a KO and TKO in foreman's case

MRBOOMER
04-08-2011, 02:01 AM
Forman didn't push people to knock outs he thudded them to em it's looks like a push cause there's no snap on the punches

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 02:03 AM
Forman didn't push people to knock outs he thudded them to em it's looks like a push cause there's no snap on the punches

fine thudded them to the ground....he was defnatly thudding the heavy bag in that one ali video where foremans just hitting the same spot on the bag over and over again.......but theres really no speed and really no distance which makes for the lack of snap.

Scott9945
04-08-2011, 02:04 AM
There isn't much distinction between a KO and TKO in foreman's case

Of course not. The only time there is a distinction is when the TKO is caused by an injury.

MRBOOMER
04-08-2011, 02:10 AM
fine thudded them to the ground....he was defnatly thudding the heavy bag in that one ali video where foremans just hitting the same spot on the bag over and over again.......but theres really no speed and really no distance which makes for the lack of snap.

Point is thuds have power and as for him being one of the hardest hitting heavy weights of all time is hard to argue against considering he was knocking people out who never had been ko'd or tko'd and which is basically the same thing

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 02:16 AM
Point is thuds have power and as for him being one of the hardest hitting heavy weights of all time is hard to argue against considering he was knocking people out who never had been ko'd or tko'd and which is basically the same thing

if all you guys have to argue against my point is that tko's and ko's arnt different then i have no need to argue any more.

joseph5620
04-08-2011, 02:17 AM
soooo you agree that roy jones jr did not have unpresidented dominance and should not be in a top 13 p4p list? regardless of how any one feels about lucas.

and foreman pushed hard......but couldnt punch for **** after he fought chuvalo.....giving away speed and distance for raw power....he smothered opponents into tko's he did not ko them.

Foreman didn't score his KO's by "pushing". I'm not even going to waste time on that kind of stupidity. Especially since I know you have seen very few Foreman fights. Yes, it's that obvious after reading your post on the subject.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 02:20 AM
Foreman didn't score his KO's by "pushing". I'm not even going to waste time on that kind of stupidity. Especially since I know you have seen very few Foremen fights.

lol, ive seen like 10 of the 80+ fights...but thats more then enough to know if some one has good timing speed and distance/range.....and foreman didnt.

why didnt foreman ko ali if foreman was so powerful?

because foreman had slow punches and ali had no problem rolling with them.

MRBOOMER
04-08-2011, 02:24 AM
lol, ive seen like 10 of the 80+ fights...but thats more then enough to know if some one has good timing speed and distance/range.....and foreman didnt.

He had excellent timing knew when to throw and what punch to throw and he didnt need distance unless he threw his jab because that was his style

Scott9945
04-08-2011, 02:26 AM
if all you guys have to argue against my point is that tko's and ko's arnt different then i have no need to argue any more.

I believe the point of contention was your evaluation of Foreman's punching power. It was your curious analysis that brought the TKO/KO difference into it.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 02:26 AM
He had excellent timing knew when to throw and what punch to throw and he didnt need distance unless he threw his jab because that was his style

yes with punches that push...there is no need for distance....yes that was his style....to push rather then punch......errr to thud....

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 02:28 AM
I believe the point of contention was your evaluation of Foreman's punching power. It was your curious analysis that brought the TKO/KO difference in to it.

well a ko is when some one cant go on any more....while a tko is when some one else had deemed the person unable to go any more.

whether some one's punches are knocking people out or just knocking them down is directly related to ko's and tko's.

joseph5620
04-08-2011, 02:28 AM
lol, ive seen like 10 of the 80+ fights...but thats more then enough to know if some one has good timing speed and distance/range.....and foreman didnt.

The question was whether he punched hard. You said he didn't. You said he couldn't "punch for sh**" after the Chuvalo fight. The silly "speed"/"distance"/"range" BS is irrelevant and a facade that you're putting up to look like you know what you're talking about. When you clearly don't.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 02:30 AM
The question was whether he punched hard. You said he didn't. You said he couldn't "punch for sh**" after the Chuvalo fight. The silly "speed"/"distance"/"range" BS is irrelevant and a facade that you're putting up to look like you know what your talking about. When you clearly don't.

speed, distance range....they are all factors of the quality of a punch....a punch with out speed distance and range is a ****ty punch.

would it make you happy if i agree he pushed hard?

his punches were still ****.

watch the ali fight and watch foreman push ali around the ring all night.

hold a piece of paper with one hand and try to punch though it with the other....with out speed all your doing is pushing the paper and with out distance you will never have speed.

joseph5620
04-08-2011, 02:37 AM
speed, distance range....they are all factors of the quality of a punch....a punch with out speed distance and range is a ****ty punch.

would it make you happy if i agree he pushed hard?

his punches were still ****.

watch the ali fight and watch foreman push ali around the ring all night.

68 out of Foreman's 76 wins have ended by KO. I would like to see you take some of those "sh***" punches. And I'm not looking for you to make me happy. Foreman was not "pushing" Ali all over the ring all night. Just another Foreman fight that you apparently didn't see.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 02:38 AM
68 out of Foreman's 76 wins have ended by KO. I would like to see you take some of those "sh***" punches. And I'm not looking for you to make me happy. Foreman was not "pushing" Ali all over the ring all night. Just another Foreman fight that you apparently didn't see.


actually.....26 ended with ko and 42 ended with tko.

now lets compare that to some on who had distance and speed.....jack dempsey......

6 tkos and 44 ko's out of the 61 fights he won.

rocky marciano....

19tkos with 24 ko's

joe louis

23 tkos with 29 ko's

BattlingNelson
04-08-2011, 02:45 AM
well a ko is when some one cant go on any more....while a tko is when some one else had deemed the person unable to go any more.

whether some one's punches are knocking people out or just knocking them down is directly related to ko's and tko's.
A TKO also happens when the referee doesn't bother to count to 10 and just wave of the fight with the stricken boxer splattered on the canvas.

This was the case for instance when Tyson beat Holmes, Foreman beating Cooney and several other fights where the losing fighter was brutally KTFO. A ten count would have been a formality. So making a judgement on punching power by making a distinction between KO's and TKO's is not possible. Wheter it's a KO or TKO is often up to the referees discretion ie. wheter he bothers to complete a 10-count or not.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 02:49 AM
A TKO also happens when the referee doesn't bother to count to 10 and just wave of the fight with the stricken boxer splattered on the canvas.

This was the case for instance when Tyson beat Holmes, Foreman beating Cooney and several other fights where the losing fighter was brutally KTFO. A ten count would have been a formality. So making a judgement on punching power by making a distinction between KO's and TKO's is not possible. Wheter it's a KO or TKO is often up to the referees discretion ie. wheter he bothers to complete a 10-count or not.

i agree it does happen...quite a few times with tyson and julian jackson though with foreman and what ive seen of his fights it dosnt make it seem like it happened that often for him....though as ive said ive only seen about 10 of his fights

BattlingNelson
04-08-2011, 02:53 AM
i agree it does happen...quite a few times with tyson and julian jackson though with foreman and what ive seen of his fights it dosnt make it seem like it happened that often for him....though as ive said ive only seen about 10 of his fights
It happens all the time.

Honestly you claiming that Foreman didnt have punching power is an insult to all the great fighters he stopped in a couple of rounds. Surely these well-trained athletes would not just fall over from pitty-pats. You dont have a case IMO. Sorry.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 02:58 AM
It happens all the time.

Honestly you claiming that Foreman didnt have punching power is an insult to all the great fighters he stopped in a couple of rounds. Surely these well-trained athletes would not just fall over from pitty-pats. You dont have a case IMO. Sorry.

not really, i mean if i claim he didnt have punching power but he actually koed people like fraizer then yes it might be an insult......but he didnt ko fraizer or chuvalo or norton...he won with a technical ko with them all still standing when the fight was over he was a strong guy that had a hard push and surely a hard enough push could make any well trained athlete fall over....well not chuvalo.....he had a good punch back then....chuvalo's just a beast.

BattlingNelson
04-08-2011, 03:03 AM
not really, i mean if i claim he didnt have punching power but he actually koed people like fraizer then yes it might be an insult......but he didnt ko fraizer or chuvalo or norton...he won with a technical ko with them all still standing when the fight was over he was a strong guy that had a hard push and surely a hard enough push could make any well trained athlete fall over....well not chuvalo.....he had a good punch back then....chuvalo's just a beast.
I'll go as long as saying that Foreman's punching technique isnt textbook, but he nevertheless generated power enough to put great fighters in no state to continue after only a few minutes of fighting. Basically that is all the evidence you need.

Besides maybe you should check out Foreman-Moorer as well. One-punch KO power.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 03:08 AM
I'll go as long as saying that Foreman's punching technique isnt textbook, but he nevertheless generated power enough to put great fighters in no state to continue after only a few minutes of fighting. Basically that is all the evidence you need.

Besides maybe you should check out Foreman-Moorer as well. One-punch KO power.

thats one of the 10 ive seen, but not recently so i dont really remember how things went down.

can you see the diffrence in foremans fighting style against fraizer and against chuvalo?

and would you say his fighting style resembled that of his fighting style against fraizer? or chuvalo?

as i said earlier, he did have skill at one point in time and the moore fight is the only older fight ive seen so he might of had to use skill instead of just brute strength as he got older.

i can answer this myself but it would have to wait a couple hours till i get home and can watch the fight.

BattlingNelson
04-08-2011, 03:39 AM
thats one of the 10 ive seen, but not recently so i dont really remember how things went down.

can you see the diffrence in foremans fighting style against fraizer and against chuvalo?

and would you say his fighting style resembled that of his fighting style against fraizer? or chuvalo?

as i said earlier, he did have skill at one point in time and the moore fight is the only older fight ive seen so he might of had to use skill instead of just brute strength as he got older.

i can answer this myself but it would have to wait a couple hours till i get home and can watch the fight.
Does it matter? You are arguing that Foreman didnt have punching power. I (and most others) think that is absurd.


BTW above you are saying that Norton, Frazier etc. was standing when the fight was over. Does that mean that you think those fights was stopped too early?

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 03:45 AM
Does it matter? You are arguing that Foreman didnt have punching power. I (and most others) think that is absurd.


BTW above you are saying that Norton, Frazier etc. was standing when the fight was over. Does that mean that you think those fights was stopped too early?

im agueing that after he fought chuvalo he was a **** puncher, and he was not one of the hardest hitting heavys he would fall some where outside of the top 10.

no the fights were stoped when they were stoped because thats the rules if you want to be a pro boxer by smother people into a tko the rules alow that...just as the lrr allowed a boxer to keep falling down so he could rest.....but it dosnt make him a good puncher.

BattlingNelson
04-08-2011, 03:58 AM
im agueing that after he fought chuvalo he was a **** puncher, and he was not one of the hardest hitting heavys he would fall some where outside of the top 10.

no the fights were stoped when they were stoped because thats the rules if you want to be a pro boxer by smother people into a tko the rules alow that...just as the lrr allowed a boxer to keep falling down so he could rest.....but it dosnt make him a good puncher.
Foreman was one of the hardest hitting HW's ever. How else would great fighters be put into a state where they are unable to continue in a couple of minutes? Surely this indicates heavy punching dont you think? Or are you claiming that the fights shouldnt have been stopped?

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 04:04 AM
Foreman was one of the hardest hitting HW's ever. How else would great fighters be put into a state where they are unable to continue in a couple of minutes? Surely this indicates heavy punching dont you think? Or are you claiming that the fights shouldnt have been stopped?

if your bobbing into the punches then its the combined force of you and the punches....not just heavy punches.

the norton fight should of been stopped, if i remember correctly he did get a 10 count or something...im not sure why its marked as a tko.....but also if i remember correctly he was standing with a wtf look when the fight was called.

ill have to rewatch that one.

i think fraizer could of kept going in either of his fights, im pretty sure atleast 2 of his kds were simply because he was hit with the bob set off balance and fell down.

BattlingNelson
04-08-2011, 04:26 AM
if your bobbing into the punches then its the combined force of you and the punches....not just heavy punches.

the norton fight should of been stopped, if i remember correctly he did get a 10 count or something...im not sure why its marked as a tko.....but also if i remember correctly he was standing with a wtf look when the fight was called.

ill have to rewatch that one.

i think fraizer could of kept going in either of his fights, im pretty sure atleast 2 of his kds were simply because he was hit with the bob set off balance and fell down.
So, in your opinion, Foreman just had some great timing that enabled him to push a fist onto his opponents jaw at the exact time that his opponent bobbed hard into it thereby hurting him badly?


Norton commented his fight with Foreman in a later interview in the documentary "When we where kings", something like: "See there. I move backwards. And backwards. And then I slipped!" Afterwards he laughed. He was finished man. He knew it. So did everybody else.


As for Frazier. He was down about 5 times (give or take) in the first fight. You know: Basically all over the place. Letting him continue would have been academic. The fight was over.

You are saying that Foreman is outside your top 10 in punching power. How about sharing with us who you think carried more power than Big George?

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 04:55 AM
So, in your opinion, Foreman just had some great timing that enabled him to push a fist onto his opponents jaw at the exact time that his opponent bobbed hard into it thereby hurting him badly?


Norton commented his fight with Foreman in a later interview in the documentary "When we where kings", something like: "See there. I move backwards. And backwards. And then I slipped!" Afterwards he laughed. He was finished man. He knew it. So did everybody else.


As for Frazier. He was down about 5 times (give or take) in the first fight. You know: Basically all over the place. Letting him continue would have been academic. The fight was over.

You are saying that Foreman is outside your top 10 in punching power. How about sharing with us who you think carried more power than Big George?

no in my opinion fraizer was way to random with his bobbing and weaving. like he wasnt just bobbing to slip punches but he was bobbing just to be unpredictable alll foreman had to do was swing and he would either hit him with the bob or against the bob.....and his hands were quite low as bobbers tend to do this to using the lower hands for a lower center of gravity helping to bob faster and maintain balance.

sooo you present a quote where norton claims he was down because he slipped? all right then.

how many 8 counts did fraizer get with his 5 kd's....no i guess thats really regardless though i do feel that if he had gotten one every time he went down he would of been able to continue. but as the point stands....no he did seem quite dizzy and was having alot of problems keeping his hands up. could he have continued, absolutely, did he want to continue...i belive so.....but with out atleast a min to clear his thoughts he would of just continued to be knocked down.

louis sullivan dempsey fitzsimmons, langford, tyson, shavers, liston, marciano, walcott, even lyle punched harder then foreman, though i wouldnt put him in top 10 either

any one of them hit harder then foreman in the sense that if you were to be hit cleanly by any one of them, given a week to recover, and then hit cleanly by foreman you would say that the punch from foreman pushed you back more but was no where near as painful.

#1Assassin
04-08-2011, 06:51 AM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/V_WKUJVUKJA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

2:11

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/l2XlGWhY_5I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

7:12

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uzy6tErgQZI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


to say foreman wasnt a big puncher is borderline retarded, and i dont mean retarded the way it gets thrown around these days. i mean diaper wearing, drowning in a bowl of soup retarded.

frazier might have been on his feet but he didnt have a clue where he was at, that doesnt happen when u get pushed to the canvas. in the second fight he got dropped for a 8 or 9 count, and when he got up fell right back on his ass. if thats not a concussive punch i dont know what is.

once when asked what he did wrong against foreman, frazier answered "i signed the contract". both fights with foreman he took a brutal beating and got KNOCKED OUT, as did norton.

foreman short circuited moorers brain with one savage right hand down the pipe, not even his best punch. moorer hit the canvas like a ton of bricks, layed stretched out for a 7 or 8 count then started flopping around like a fish. he got KNOCKED OUT.

cooney hit the floor like a rag doll, KNOCKED OUT COLD! the video ends but he was down for some time, as were the vast majority of foremans knockout victims. that right uppercut he landed on that puerto rican kid in blue shorts in the highlight video had him sound asleep for some time. and even the guys foreman didnt finish were battered, ali urinated blood for weeks after his fight with foreman, he had severe internal damage.

foreman was one of the hardest punchers in heavyweight history. sonny liston trained with foreman and said george hit harder than he did, he described it as "one punch killing power". archie moore trained foreman and said in all his years in boxing he never seen a man hit like foreman did or even though it was possible for a man to hit that hard.

BattlingNelson
04-08-2011, 07:08 AM
no in my opinion fraizer was way to random with his bobbing and weaving. like he wasnt just bobbing to slip punches but he was bobbing just to be unpredictable alll foreman had to do was swing and he would either hit him with the bob or against the bob.....and his hands were quite low as bobbers tend to do this to using the lower hands for a lower center of gravity helping to bob faster and maintain balance.

sooo you present a quote where norton claims he was down because he slipped? all right then.

how many 8 counts did fraizer get with his 5 kd's....no i guess thats really regardless though i do feel that if he had gotten one every time he went down he would of been able to continue. but as the point stands....no he did seem quite dizzy and was having alot of problems keeping his hands up. could he have continued, absolutely, did he want to continue...i belive so.....but with out atleast a min to clear his thoughts he would of just continued to be knocked down.

louis sullivan dempsey fitzsimmons, langford, tyson, shavers, liston, marciano, walcott, even lyle punched harder then foreman, though i wouldnt put him in top 10 either

any one of them hit harder then foreman in the sense that if you were to be hit cleanly by any one of them, given a week to recover, and then hit cleanly by foreman you would say that the punch from foreman pushed you back more but was no where near as painful.
I have nothing more to add.

Think what you want about foreman's punching power. Nothing I can say can make you change your mind.

The_Demon
04-08-2011, 07:24 AM
Foreman hit like a truck,end of story

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 09:58 AM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/V_WKUJVUKJA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

2:11

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/l2XlGWhY_5I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

7:12

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uzy6tErgQZI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>




.....fine youve convinced me otherwise....congrats.

thanks for taking the time with the vids.

jabsRstiff
04-08-2011, 10:14 AM
Eder Jofre......was more accomplished and more brilliant than a few guys on Teddy's list.

IronDanHamza
04-08-2011, 10:31 AM
Honestly, people surely aren't suggested George Foreman didn't punch hard.

Seriously.

Barnburner
04-08-2011, 10:32 AM
Eder Jofre......was more accomplished and more brilliant than a few guys on Teddy's list.
I also feel Jimmy Wilde > Monzon. Lists are personal though.

Spartacus Sully
04-08-2011, 10:43 AM
Honestly, people surely aren't suggested George Foreman didn't punch hard.

Seriosuly.

nah not really....i had made the comment like a year ago in an effor to troll.....i belive i was also argueing that joe fraizer had a glass jaw in the same thread.....

but if some guy is going to bring up my past trolling as some kind of reason why i cant comprehend things.....im not just going to drop it with out putting up fight.

plus the more i argue it the more i learn about foreman.

jabsRstiff
04-08-2011, 12:18 PM
Foreman wasn't like Joe Louis, where he could unleash some missile from either hand that just took a guy out right then and there, but.....

I don't think there's ever been a heavier-handed fighter in history. He could hurt you with any punch, even ones that looked like they didn't have much mustard on them. His left jab alone had more heft on it than a lot of fighter's hooks and crosses.

Vadrigar.
04-08-2011, 03:22 PM
when you impact some ones head the head moves before the brain causing the brain to hit the walls of the head causing the person to go unconscious. when you push someone, the head the brain they all move as one.....there is no brain slamming into the side of the head causing some one to go unconscious when your punches only push.

Foreman punched not pushed, it's clear from the footage. Yes he was slow but very powerful. As I said before if Foreman pushed, his opponents wouldn't be in the condition they were at the end of the fight.

how many times did foreman leave his opponent on the ground unconscious for the whole 10?

Makes no difference as scott has already pointed out. What you said does not negate his punching power which is the point we were discussing.

26 times he actually got a KO. he could punch.......but one hardest hitting heavy weights...LOL

He has 68 Ko's that's a fact. This combined with watching footage of his fights clearly shows he is one of the hardest hitting heavyweights. It's LOL at you and absurd to think otherwise.

BTW someone recently posted footage of Foreman knocking someone out with a jab. Watch if you dare. (if you haven't already)

mikeyh1015
04-08-2011, 03:29 PM
lol, I hate how people use only old school fighters to try to prove that they know boxing... Roy jones, Mayweather and Even PAC deserve a spot on thier. i mean come on Duran greater than RJJ, May/PAC? F@ck you teddy

Steak
04-08-2011, 03:34 PM
lol, I hate how people use only old school fighters to try to prove that they know boxing... Roy jones, Mayweather and Even PAC deserve a spot on thier. i mean come on Duran greater than RJJ, May/PAC? F@ck you teddy
You do know Duran has one of the most impressive resumes in the history of boxing, correct? With a win over someone who is quite arguably a top 10 ATG? And that he has beaten noteworthy competition from 130lbs to 168lbs, over 4 decades?

SBleeder
04-08-2011, 03:41 PM
lol, I hate how people use only old school fighters to try to prove that they know boxing... Roy jones, Mayweather and Even PAC deserve a spot on thier. i mean come on Duran greater than RJJ, May/PAC? F@ck you teddy

Duran is greater than Jones Jr., Mayweather, and Pacquiao combined.

Ziggy Stardust
04-08-2011, 03:57 PM
why didnt foreman ko ali if foreman was so powerful?

Because a great chin beats a great punch. End of story. It's one of the oldest boxing maxims out there. Cobb Vs. Shavers, LaMotta Vs. Satterfield, ect. ect. ect.

Poet

BattlingNelson
04-08-2011, 05:14 PM
Because a great chin beats a great punch. End of story. It's one of the oldest boxing maxims out there. Cobb Vs. Shavers, LaMotta Vs. Satterfield, ect. ect. ect.

Poet
And Hearns vs Duran, Tyson vs. Holmes. Hell even Jack Daniels packs a wallop. He's knocked me out more than once.

Err.. Cough...

Ziggy Stardust
04-08-2011, 05:22 PM
And Hearns vs Duran, Tyson vs. Holmes. Hell even Jack Daniels packs a wallop. He's knocked me out more than once.

Err.. Cough...

I wasn't aware Duran had a great chin at that weight. Lightweight yes, Junior-Middle or Welter? I doubt it. In the Holmes fight the referee waved it off before Holmes hit the canvas (moot since the 3 KD rule was in effect for that fight I believe) so not really a great example. A better one would have been Shavers KOing Holmes.....but of course that didn't happen did it?

Poet

BattlingNelson
04-08-2011, 05:26 PM
I wasn't aware Duran had a great chin at that weight. Lightweight yes, Junior-Middle or Welter? I doubt it. In the Holmes fight the referee waved it off before Holmes hit the canvas (moot since the 3 KD rule was in effect for that fight I believe) so not really a great example. A better one would have been Shavers KOing Holmes.....but of course that didn't happen did it?

Poet
Durans chin was still good enough to take Hagler 15 at MW, but Hearns was just this phenomenal puncher.

Holmes was in a coma when Cortez ripped out his mouthshield. KTFO. Out-of-body experience.

Ziggy Stardust
04-08-2011, 05:30 PM
Durans chin was still good enough to take Hagler 15 at MW, but Hearns was just this phenomenal puncher.

Holmes was in a coma when Cortez ripped out his mouthshield. KTFO. Out-of-body experience.

Yeah, he was in such a coma that within a few seconds of hitting the canvas he was telling Giachetti "Richie get me off the Goddamned floor" since he had a mob of people around him keeping him down :rolleyes9:

Poet

BattlingNelson
04-08-2011, 05:43 PM
Yeah, he was in such a coma that within a few seconds of hitting the canvas he was telling Giachetti "Richie get me off the Goddamned floor" since he had a mob of people around him keeping him down :rolleyes9:

Poet
Do you have a credible source?

Anyway here's the vid (from 6.05) that IMO clearly shows the spreadeagled concussed Holmes KTFO:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xSb4-ejQavw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Steak
04-08-2011, 05:43 PM
Im thinking the real reason that Foreman didnt KO Ali is because he didnt get the opportunity to land anything real powerful clean to Ali's head. Foreman certainly had the power to KO Ali, its just that Ali was too clever defensively and fought smart against him.

Duran still had a very good chin at 154lbs and above, he took Hagler, Barkley and Moore's shots flush and wasnt too shaken. especially that one left hook Barkley nailed him with in the 8th(?) round, oof. although Ive heard stories about him having to straight up give blood to make weight against Hearns, if that actually happened I can see it weakening his punch resistance.

joseph5620
04-08-2011, 08:58 PM
Im thinking the real reason that Foreman didnt KO Ali is because he didnt get the opportunity to land anything real powerful clean to Ali's head. Foreman certainly had the power to KO Ali, its just that Ali was too clever defensively and fought smart against him.

Duran still had a very good chin at 154lbs and above, he took Hagler, Barkley and Moore's shots flush and wasnt too shaken. especially that one left hook Barkley nailed him with in the 8th(?) round, oof. although Ive heard stories about him having to straight up give blood to make weight against Hearns, if that actually happened I can see it weakening his punch resistance.



Duran would have been KO'd by Hearns regardless. I'm not buying that far-fetched excuse.

Scott9945
04-08-2011, 11:29 PM
Duran would have been KO'd by Hearns regardless. I'm not buying that far-fetched excuse.

As one sided as that fight was, you're probably right. But it was pretty well known then that Duran was in piss poor condition for that match. That's why I always consider the Cuevas fight Hearns' best win. Duran was one of the all time greats, but fans seem to overlook his inconsistent work ethic after the Leonard win. More than once he just showed up for the check.

Spartacus Sully
04-09-2011, 02:42 AM
Do you have a credible source?


Bad intentions the mike tyson story by peter heller, i dont know what page will show up when you click the link but its in the last paragraph of page 193

http://books.google.com/books?id=zQeJ5T9cGoAC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=Richie+get+me+off+the+Goddamned+floor&source=bl&ots=NPWeYkOxck&sig=FJc9LQcrH3LPwzkYxAnGTLDpK0Q&hl=en&ei=uP6fTceEM9SdgQfR7t3aBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Ziggy Stardust
04-09-2011, 03:15 AM
Bad intentions the mike tyson story by peter heller, i dont know what page will show up when you click the link but its in the last paragraph of page 193

http://books.google.com/books?id=zQeJ5T9cGoAC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=Richie+get+me+off+the+Goddamned+floor&source=bl&ots=NPWeYkOxck&sig=FJc9LQcrH3LPwzkYxAnGTLDpK0Q&hl=en&ei=uP6fTceEM9SdgQfR7t3aBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thank you! Saved me the trouble of digging my back issues of Ring Magazine out of storage to look for the reference. They quote the book in an article from the early '90s.

Poet

Spartacus Sully
04-09-2011, 03:22 AM
Thank you! Saved me the trouble of digging my back issues of Ring Magazine out of storage to look for the reference. They quote the book in an article from the early '90s.

Poet

np, i just googled the quote took me like 10 seconds to find it.

Ziggy Stardust
04-09-2011, 03:29 AM
np, i just googled the quote took me like 10 seconds to find it.

It's funny, even surrounded by all this technology I don't always think to Google.....I'm still an old-fashioned hard-copy researcher at heart :hah9:

Poet

BattlingNelson
04-09-2011, 04:55 AM
Bad intentions the mike tyson story by peter heller, i dont know what page will show up when you click the link but its in the last paragraph of page 193

http://books.google.com/books?id=zQeJ5T9cGoAC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=Richie+get+me+off+the+Goddamned+floor&source=bl&ots=NPWeYkOxck&sig=FJc9LQcrH3LPwzkYxAnGTLDpK0Q&hl=en&ei=uP6fTceEM9SdgQfR7t3aBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thanks. Peter Heller is a great boxing writer.

Yeah, he was in such a coma that within a few seconds of hitting the canvas he was telling Giachetti "Richie get me off the Goddamned floor" since he had a mob of people around him keeping him down :rolleyes9:

Poet

From Heller's book it appears as if Holmes did say so, but from the vid it is also clear that it was not inside 10 seconds that Holmes could have said so. He was KTFO. I can only buy your assessment of 'within a few seconds' if that translates into more than a ten-count.


Bat.

BattlingNelson
04-09-2011, 05:02 AM
A little bonus info on Tyson-Holmes is that Tyson's pose after finishing Holmes is a tribute to Battling Nelson.

Tyson. Ever the historian. :)

Ziggy Stardust
04-09-2011, 01:12 PM
From Heller's book it appears as if Holmes did say so, but from the vid it is also clear that it was not inside 10 seconds that Holmes could have said so. He was KTFO. I can only buy your assessment of 'within a few seconds' if that translates into more than a ten-count.

Funny, earlier in this thread weren't you b1tching about people sh1tpicking a minor point and missing the larger one? Ah! The smell of irony hangs in the air!

Poet

BattlingNelson
04-09-2011, 01:37 PM
Funny, earlier in this thread weren't you b1tching about people sh1tpicking a minor point and missing the larger one? Ah! The smell of irony hangs in the air!

Poet
I was simply debunking your claim that a great chin always beats a great punch. Nothing more. No need to get riled up my friend.

Ziggy Stardust
04-09-2011, 01:59 PM
I was simply debunking your claim that a great chin always beats a great punch. Nothing more. No need to get riled up my friend.

No debunking occured (especially since the Tyson Vs. Holmes example was not even close to being a one-punch KO hence it says exactly zilch about Holmes' chin). They've put these matchups together over and over again throughout boxing's history: A great puncher with a glass-jaw against a feather-fist with granite chin. The vast majority of the time the chin wins.

Poet

Forza
04-09-2011, 06:01 PM
willie pep should be over henry armstrong