View Full Version : Jeff Fenech's ATG status?


Pastrano
04-05-2011, 03:45 PM
Where would you place him in the ATG perspective?? Top 100? Top 150? I mean p4p, not just as a BW, SBW or FW. Or is he worthy to be called ATG?

RubenSonny
04-05-2011, 03:57 PM
Don't know too much about him, seen the Nelson fights + a few others and I though he won the first one, very good fighter as far as I know, don't know enough to answer your question, always thought he had underrated punching power, I'm sure Benny with a give a full answer if he sees this.

fitefanSHO
04-05-2011, 04:06 PM
Fenech was a tough guy, a good fighter but honestly, I think he was somewhat of a media creation, and by media I mean the magazines of the time (KO) that rated him very high pound for pound and promoted him like the next ATG fighter you never really heard of. So, Fenech ATG? No. ATG from Australia? Sure. Maybe even #1 on that list.

Steak
04-05-2011, 05:12 PM
Fenech was a tough guy, a good fighter but honestly, I think he was somewhat of a media creation, and by media I mean the magazines of the time (KO) that rated him very high pound for pound and promoted him like the next ATG fighter you never really heard of. So, Fenech ATG? No. ATG from Australia? Sure. Maybe even #1 on that list.

how is he not an ATG on the word scale? He should have a win over Azumah Nelson, making him successful over 4 weight classes. and Azumah Nelson is an ATG fighter himself.

he also has wins over HOF Daniel Zaragoza, IBF champ Shingaki, Coffee, WBC champ Samart Payakaroon(Best in the division), future bantamweight champ Greg Richardson, HOF Carlos Zarate(old), Callejas, future WBC featherweight champ Marcos Villasana, and Mario Martinez.

he was an overwhelming force at his best.
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Pastrano
04-05-2011, 06:11 PM
how is he not an ATG on the word scale? He should have a win over Azumah Nelson, making him successful over 4 weight classes. and Azumah Nelson is an ATG fighter himself.

he also has wins over HOF Daniel Zaragoza, IBF champ Shingaki, Coffee, WBC champ Samart Payakaroon(Best in the division), future bantamweight champ Greg Richardson, HOF Carlos Zarate(old), Callejas, future WBC featherweight champ Marcos Villasana, and Mario Martinez.

he was an overwhelming force at his best.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Yu-kPjYHTEk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Don't forget Steve McCrory, the brother of Milton. He was a decent fighter too. Just saw Fenech-Nelson I btw, had it scored 118-110 for Jeff. UNBELIEVABLE robbery!There was some idiot Pinoy judge that scored it 116-112 for Azumah, otherwise Jeff woulda won it.

fitefanSHO
04-05-2011, 06:39 PM
The problem is that Fenech then got annihilated in the rematch w/ Nelson and in his next fight after that he was KO'd by the featherfisted Calvin Grove. Those losses affect how I think about Fenech as an ATG.

Pastrano
04-05-2011, 07:01 PM
The problem is that Fenech then got annihilated in the rematch w/ Nelson and in his next fight after that he was KO'd by the featherfisted Calvin Grove. Those losses affect how I think about Fenech as an ATG.

He was on the slide then. Not sure what kinda problems he had, but he def had problems. And Grove wasn't really featherfisted, just not a puncher.

joseph5620
04-05-2011, 07:13 PM
He was on the slide then. Not sure what kinda problems he had, but he def had problems. And Grove wasn't really featherfisted, just not a puncher.

Then how do you come up with he was "on the slide" with nothing to back it? Other than he lost the fights? You can't use that as an excuse every time a fighter loses. Especially in the case of the Nelson rematch which happened only 9 months later.

fitefanSHO
04-05-2011, 07:16 PM
Then how do you come up with he was "on the slide" with nothing to back it? Other than he lost the fights? You can't use that as an excuse every time a fighter loses. Especially in the case of the Nelson rematch which happened only 9 months later.

Exactly. He lost those fights during his prime.

The KO loss to Philip Holiday, that was during his "slide"

fitefanSHO
04-05-2011, 07:29 PM
And Grove wasn't really featherfisted, just not a puncher.

Grove had 18 KO's in 59 fights (49 wins)

The man was featherfisted.

Steak
04-05-2011, 08:03 PM
who cares if he had losses. his career was obviously over after the first or second Nelson fight, probably from lack of motivation at that point.(Ive read he stopped caring about boxing after being robbed in the first Nelson fight). after all, Fenech was a fighter that owes his success VERY largely to his ridiculous stamina and tenacity, if he stops training its obviously going to kill him. how the hell was he prime when he instantly looked like **** after a long successful career, and from that point on never did a single meaningful thing afterwards?

I dont give a damn if he was 'prime', even though thats a ridiculous statement, his accomplishments and long undefeated streak over 4 weight classes already speak for themselves. hes an ATG.

joseph5620
04-05-2011, 08:09 PM
who cares if he had losses. his career was obviously over after the first or second Nelson fight, probably from lack of motivation at that point.(Ive read he stopped caring about boxing after being robbed in the first Nelson fight). after all, Fenech was a fighter that owes his success VERY largely to his ridiculous stamina and tenacity, if he stops training its obviously going to kill him. how the hell was he prime when he instantly looked like **** after a long successful career, and from that point on never did a single meaningful thing afterwards?

I dont give a damn if he was 'prime', even though thats a ridiculous statement, his accomplishments and long undefeated streak over 4 weight classes already speak for themselves. hes an ATG.

Well if you're going to discredit Nelson's his win over Fenech you should probably accept Nelson's excuse that he had "maleria" in the first fight with Fenech. And Nelson wasn't exactly in the prime of his career for either fight.

Steak
04-05-2011, 08:15 PM
Well if you're going to discredit Nelson's his win over Fenech you should probably accept Nelson's excuse that he had "maleria" in the first fight with Fenech. And Nelson wasn't exactly in the prime of his career for either fight.
I didnt say I was going to discredit Nelson's win over Fenech, but Fenech was very obviously past it when he lost to Calvin Grove

Miburo
04-05-2011, 08:26 PM
Nelson absolutely executed him in the rematch, one of my favorite fights. Fenech's corner was ridiculously out of line after that one.

Scott9945
04-05-2011, 10:05 PM
Grove had 18 KO's in 59 fights (49 wins)

The man was featherfisted.

You beat me to it. Grove couldn't punch worth spit.

Scott9945
04-05-2011, 10:06 PM
Nelson absolutely executed him in the rematch, one of my favorite fights. Fenech's corner was ridiculously out of line after that one.

What happened with Fenech's corner?

IMDAZED
04-05-2011, 10:46 PM
Jeff Fenech would be considered a god today.

RubenSonny
04-06-2011, 03:19 AM
Well if you're going to discredit Nelson's his win over Fenech you should probably accept Nelson's excuse that he had "maleria" in the first fight with Fenech. And Nelson wasn't exactly in the prime of his career for either fight.

He was 'on the slide' a few years before then.

Nelson absolutely executed him in the rematch, one of my favorite fights. Fenech's corner was ridiculously out of line after that one.

Yup, me too one of my favourites all-time.

Jeff Fenech would be considered a god today.

Yes he would.

Ziggy Stardust
04-06-2011, 03:43 AM
According to Crackirish losses don't count and everyone with a record better .500 is an ATG (cuz one fighter isn't really "better" than any other fighter don't you know, just some got more favorable "style matchups" than others) :bullsh1t9:

Poet

Steak
04-06-2011, 03:47 AM
According to Crackirish losses don't count and everyone with a record better .500 is an ATG (cuz one fighter isn't really "better" than any other fighter don't you know, just some got more favorable "style matchups" than others) :bullsh1t9:

Poet
yep, Ali's losses to Berbick and Spinks completely kill his legacy. Roy Jones isnt an ATG either, nope, he lost too often.

get outta here. Fenech beat a lot of quality fighters, and was undefeated over 4 weight classes. He was done with boxing after a year and 3 month layoff, any loss after the second Nelson fight is irrelevant.

Ziggy Stardust
04-06-2011, 03:53 AM
yep, Ali's losses to Berbick and Spinks completely kill his legacy. Roy Jones isnt an ATG either, nope, he lost too often.

get outta here. Fenech beat a lot of quality fighters, and was undefeated over 4 weight classes. He was done with boxing after a year and 3 month layoff, any loss after the second Nelson fight is irrelevant.

Yeah, and Samart Payakaroon was the second coming of Roberto Duran rather than an obscure joke of a belt-holder that are dime-a-dozen with the Alphabet Soup boys :hahahaha9:

Poet

Steak
04-06-2011, 03:58 AM
Yeah, and Samart Payakaroon was the second coming of Roberto Duran rather than an obscure joke of a belt-holder that are dime-a-dozen with the Alphabet Soup boys :hahahaha9:

Poet
Payakaroon was the best in the division with back to back KO wins over Pintor and Juan Meza. who the hell else could have been #1? it was obviously a good win. as was Fenech's wins over Nelson, Zaragoza, Martinez, (old) Zarate, Richardson and Villasana.

stop being such an idiot. your bias just kills anything you have to say.

Ziggy Stardust
04-06-2011, 04:04 AM
Payakaroon was the best in the division with back to back KO wins over Pintor and Juan Meza. who the hell else could have been #1? it was obviously a good win. as was Fenech's wins over Nelson, Zaragoza, Martinez, (old) Zarate, Richardson and Villasana.

stop being such an idiot. your bias just kills anything you have to say.

Your gross stupidity and general ignorance of boxing kills anything you have to say. I know it's a HUGE blow to your moronic world view but I'm sorry not all fighters are created equal.

Poet

Steak
04-06-2011, 04:12 AM
Your gross stupidity and general ignorance of boxing kills anything you have to say. I know it's a HUGE blow to your moronic world view but I'm sorry not all fighters are created equal.

Poetoh excellent, you dont have any real argument at all and have resorted to half assed generic insults that have nothing to do with the topic. what a surprise!

Fenech was an excellent fighter with plenty of quality wins. You're an idiot.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
04-06-2011, 04:16 AM
oh excellent, you dont have any real argument at all and have resorted to half assed generic insults that have nothing to do with the topic. what a surprise!

Fenech was an excellent fighter with plenty of quality wins. You're an idiot.

Poet

You're a moron who'd be shot in any sane society before you could pass on your retard genes to any offspring. Funny how how you scream "bias" any time someone calls you on your bullsh1t when you elevate fighters who were mearly solid to ATG status.

Steak

PEBBLES!
04-06-2011, 06:16 AM
poet682006, spiteful wanker since 2007 - some things never change.

As for the topic question, Jeff Fenech was as tough as nails, exciting fighter to watch and has several solid names on his resume, which have already been mentioned, but I don't recognise Fenech as an All-Time-Great. Fighters like Ali, Robinson, Greb, Louis, Langford etc, they are bonafide, true ATG's. Fenech is ostensibly a good fighter worthy of Hall of Fame status, nothing more, nothing less.

Definitely not an ATG.

Pastrano
04-06-2011, 08:14 AM
Then how do you come up with he was "on the slide" with nothing to back it? Other than he lost the fights? You can't use that as an excuse every time a fighter loses. Especially in the case of the Nelson rematch which happened only 9 months later.

Because other sportswriters remarked the same, ok?? How da fak else could he get stopped by GROVE?!? The warrior Fenech, famed for his tenacity and ruggedness DOESN'T get stopped by fighters like Grove.

Pastrano
04-06-2011, 08:16 AM
You're a moron who'd be shot in any sane society before you could pass on your retard genes to any offspring. Funny how how you scream "bias" any time someone calls you on your bullsh1t when you elevate fighters who were mearly solid to ATG status.

Steak

I guess if Fenech had been American, you'd automatically put him among the ATGs, right? Youre nothin but a troll.:nonono:

PEBBLES!
04-06-2011, 09:47 AM
Every individual has their own definition of what constitutes an 'ATG', so using the criteria of some, yes, Fenech may fall under the 'ATG' banner, but others may have much more refined or exclusive guidelines as to whether fighter 'X' is worthy of the title.

As mentioned previously, my ATG list will only comprise the crème de la crème, and grouping Fenech with the likes of Louis or Armstrong would not be reasonable - especially considering I only factor in the elite when judging by strength of opposition, resume, skills/style, achievements, intangibles etc etc

Pastrano
04-06-2011, 11:32 AM
Every individual has their own definition of what constitutes an 'ATG', so using the criteria of some, yes, Fenech may fall under the 'ATG' banner, but others may have much more refined or exclusive guidelines as to whether fighter 'X' is worthy of the title.

As mentioned previously, my ATG list will only comprise the crème de la crème, and grouping Fenech with the likes of Louis or Armstrong would not be reasonable - especially considering I only factor in the elite when judging by strength of opposition, resume, skills/style, achievements, intangibles etc etc
Have you seen his first fight with Nelson?! Anybody who has seen it should know that Fenech was ATG material. Unfortunately he never got the decision, so he couldn't officially become a 4-division champ. But screw that, in reality he WAS. He beat the best oposition of his time and there was some stiff oposition around at that time. Payakaroon was a helluva puncher, undefeated at the time and had just koed Lupe Pintor and Juan Meza. Fenech easily disposed of him in 4. He also beat Mario Martinez, who gave both Nelson and Chavez tough fights. Marcos Villasana, who later became champion and ruled for some time as well. Zarate might have not been prime anymore, but he wasn't washed up either. Zaragoza of course needs no introduction. Very few could withstand Fenech's relentless attack, even today. I think even Mayweather himself would have problems staying away and defending himself if they ever fought.

I think the problem is that he never remained in one division long enough to really dominate it and make a lot of defenses, so maybe thats why some are doubting his ATG status, but he beat the best guys in those divisions.

Ziggy Stardust
04-06-2011, 02:19 PM
I guess if Fenech had been American, you'd automatically put him among the ATGs, right? Youre nothin but a troll.:nonono:

Oh? You mean like the non-American ATGs I have like Duran, Arguello, Fitzsimmons, Langford, Gavilan, ect. ect. ect?

Judging by your past posts one could could say with FAR more justification that if Fenech had been black YOU would consider him a bum :hand9:

Poet

IronDanHamza
04-06-2011, 04:20 PM
Fenech was a very good fighter.

Not an ATG, in my book.

holysmoke
04-06-2011, 04:41 PM
Fenech was a very good fighter.

Not an ATG, in my book.

fenechs just behind leonard and hagler as an all time great put him against anyone between bantam and fether in history and he murders them

joseph5620
04-06-2011, 05:04 PM
Because other sportswriters remarked the same, ok?? How da fak else could he get stopped by GROVE?!? The warrior Fenech, famed for his tenacity and ruggedness DOESN'T get stopped by fighters like Grove.


I usually don't take what sportswriters say as gospel. And fighters better and tougher than Fenech have been stopped. It's not surprising unless you're dumb enough to believe Fenech was invincible.

Scott9945
04-06-2011, 05:19 PM
fenechs just behind leonard and hagler as an all time great put him against anyone between bantam and fether in history and he murders them

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

IronDanHamza
04-06-2011, 05:19 PM
fenechs just behind leonard and hagler as an all time great put him against anyone between bantam and fether in history and he murders them

No, he isn't.

Pastrano
04-06-2011, 06:37 PM
Oh? You mean like the non-American ATGs I have like Duran, Arguello, Fitzsimmons, Langford, Gavilan, ect. ect. ect?

Judging by your past posts one could could say with FAR more justification that if Fenech had been black YOU would consider him a bum :hand9:

Poet

Trolls will troll...he just keeps on trollin.:rolleyes:

holysmoke
04-07-2011, 04:00 PM
No, he isn't.

yes he is, *****

The_Demon
04-07-2011, 04:35 PM
fenechs just behind leonard and hagler as an all time great put him against anyone between bantam and fether in history and he murders them

Haha imaginative troll

fitefanSHO
04-07-2011, 05:03 PM
Nelson said it best after absolutely OWNING Fenech in the rematch...

"Fenech is a boy, I am a man." :buttkick:

Pastrano
04-07-2011, 06:19 PM
Nelson said it best after absolutely OWNING Fenech in the rematch...

"Fenech is a boy, I am a man." :buttkick:

And that quote is the reason why I don't LOVE Azumah, just LIKE him.

Ziggy Stardust
04-07-2011, 09:45 PM
Nelson said it best after absolutely OWNING Fenech in the rematch...

"Fenech is a boy, I am a man." :buttkick:

Ding ding ding we have a winner! Absolutely true: After the second fight Nelson was Fenech's DADDY.

Poet

IMDAZED
04-08-2011, 10:54 AM
He didn't say that, he said "this fight was like a father and a son."

:lol1:

McGoorty
07-18-2011, 11:34 PM
how is he not an ATG on the word scale? He should have a win over Azumah Nelson, making him successful over 4 weight classes. and Azumah Nelson is an ATG fighter himself.

he also has wins over HOF Daniel Zaragoza, IBF champ Shingaki, Coffee, WBC champ Samart Payakaroon(Best in the division), future bantamweight champ Greg Richardson, HOF Carlos Zarate(old), Callejas, future WBC featherweight champ Marcos Villasana, and Mario Martinez.

he was an overwhelming force at his best.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Yu-kPjYHTEk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You don't get into the hall of Fame if you aren't GREAT. FENECH is a legend but the number one ALL TIME GREAT to come from Australia is and always will be, LES DARCY, it's a fact that DARCY is the BEST MIDDLEWEIGHT, BEST Light-HEAVYWEIGHT and HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION in the history of Australian Boxing, he would destroy any Australian in any weight class, his nearest rival would be Dave SANDS. He was the hardest puncher, was THE toughest and most indestructible Aussie ever, a Giant Killer. His record of toughness and imperviousness puts him in the MARCIANO class, he was never knocked down, even heavyweights couldn't slow him (maybe if he'd stopped knocking them out),.. When I was young I once told an old timer in his 90's that Fenech was the best, he just sneered at me and said that he saw Darcy in a couple of big fights as a young A.I.F. soldier and that Darcy was the Greatest Fighter of them all, and he was still an avid fan then back in 1988 of the modern game. I guess that old man was in a better position to judge greats than I. A completely forgotten Aussie was Welterweight and Middleweight TOMMY UREN who fought many great Americans,and had as probably his finest hour when he beat the feared "Oshkosh Terror' Eddie McGoorty one of the All-Time most destructive punchers in Middleweight history, ( there was at least two McGOORTY V UREN fights with the honors shared ), for some reason even Australia has forgotten the man, it wouldn't surprise me if less than 50 australians remember him or one time Middleweight* Champ MICK KING who won it from McGOORTY then EDDIE Won it back in return bout. *NOTE * the belt Darcy, SMITH, KING and McGOORTY belt was the Australian version, this is why Les DARCY's World Title was a legitimate one, far more than an I.B.F. Or W.B.O. or any of today's Alphabet CRAP. . It sucks that Americans think that somehow Al McCoy (the inactive one with probably THE WORST Resume of any Middleweight EVER) was "The REAL Middleweight king, he had something like 4 fights with Clabby and McGOORTY each and came off 2nd best in at least 6 of those fights, He NEVER ever ever met Les, Al McCoy was no dummy, he knew from JC and EMcG that he'd better stay hidden.

McGoorty
07-18-2011, 11:55 PM
I usually don't take what sportswriters say as gospel. And fighters better and tougher than Fenech have been stopped. It's not surprising unless you're dumb enough to believe Fenech was invincible.

:davil2: Re- GROVE v FENECH, that fight took place at Lightweight if I remember, An Ex-Undefeated Bantam but washed up fighter loses by KO to natural Lightweight in Prime,.. wow who'd a thunk it. . And another thing, it's just disrespectfull to the memory of CALVIN GROVE to say that how could he beat Fenech, he did and it;s boxing history, is there anyone out there who says Calvin Grove was a B grade bum instead of a WORLD champion of class. Only a fighter has that right, and I think that Jeff Fenech held Calvin in very high esteem indeed I've heard him say so, Now Jeff's one who has Afore-mentioned right.:boxing:

McGoorty
07-19-2011, 12:20 AM
poet682006, spiteful wanker since 2007 - some things never change.

As for the topic question, Jeff Fenech was as tough as nails, exciting fighter to watch and has several solid names on his resume, which have already been mentioned, but I don't recognise Fenech as an All-Time-Great. Fighters like Ali, Robinson, Greb, Louis, Langford etc, they are bonafide, true ATG's. Fenech is ostensibly a good fighter worthy of Hall of Fame status, nothing more, nothing less.

Definitely not an ATG.

:boxing: Just what defines All Time Great?, How many A.T.G's is the maximum number ? are there only 10 eligible ? or 25 , 50 a 100 or 200 over 130 years of boxing history? do they have to be at least in the top 15 BEST of DIVISION, does totally dominating 1 or more weight classes for career span do. Can you provide your ultimate definition,.... please. I would also say that anybody rated as a Top 10 fighter from a nation with a long and vast history of excellence as Australia, could only be described as a great. There have been more than 25 Aussies to have claimed some portion of a world title Since YOUNG GRIFFO and PADDY SLAVIN, countless others like Bill Lang who challenged for a world title. All opinions have some validation and anybody who hates a Pro boxer or just say's something overly disrespecfull deserves telling off.:stooges:

IMDAZED
07-19-2011, 12:22 AM
:davil2: Re- GROVE v FENECH, that fight took place at Lightweight if I remember, An Ex-Undefeated Bantam but washed up fighter loses by KO to natural Lightweight in Prime,.. wow who'd a thunk it. . And another thing, it's just disrespectfull to the memory of CALVIN GROVE to say that how could he beat Fenech, he did and it;s boxing history, is there anyone out there who says Calvin Grove was a B grade bum instead of a WORLD champion of class. Only a fighter has that right, and I think that Jeff Fenech held Calvin in very high esteem indeed I've heard him say so, Now Jeff's one who has Afore-mentioned right.:boxing:
Calvin Grove was a pretty good boxer in his prime. He was just surrounded by far better talent.

McGoorty
07-21-2011, 08:45 AM
Calvin Grove was a pretty good boxer in his prime. He was just surrounded by far better talent.
I totally agree about that but I was trying to make a point that because he was prepared to fight just about anyone and was a good boxer so he deserves utmost respect. I don't think he was in a prime Jeff Fenech's class after all Grove was a real Lightweight and Jeff peaked at Feather but Jeff seemed to lose the plot after the "DRAW", he always had a complex after being robbed at the Olympics after all. Cheers mate.