View Full Version : Kostya Tszyu vs Oscar De La Hoya @140


SCtrojansbaby
03-29-2011, 05:55 PM
Who wins and how?

Wild Blue Yonda
03-29-2011, 09:56 PM
Speed kills, & De La Hoya was never a better fighter, IMO, than at 140. His punching power was also demonic, there --- this would be one of the only fights in his career, maybe the only fight, period, where Tszyu may be at a power disadvantage. He's certainly disadvantaged in enough areas elsewhere --- hand & footspeed, versatility, combinations, all De La Hoya's. Tszyu was great with timing & you need that against quicker men, but I don't think he'd be able to match De La Hoya offensively.

A late stoppage for De La Hoya.

bojangles1987
03-29-2011, 10:19 PM
Oscar really was a freak of nature at 140. His size, speed, power, and skills would just be too much. I know Oscar wasn't prime there, but he was too good to lose this fight IMO.

Scott9945
03-29-2011, 10:31 PM
Tszyu spent his entire career at 140. It seems that people are forgetting that DLH only had three fights at that weight. And the wins weren't all that incredibly impressive. So much like with Mayweather, calling Oscar great at that weight calls for plenty of speculation. Everyone should compare the fights both had with Miguel Angel Gonzalez before dismissing Tszyu's chances.

However I do admit that this would be a very close and competitive matchup that I can see either fighter winning.

gibo
03-30-2011, 03:24 AM
Tszyu KO'S delehojo in seven. Tszyu applies too much pressure.

$Full Clip$
03-30-2011, 06:32 AM
I agree with the man who said this would be a close competitive fight. Tszyu would be a live fighter until the very end. He push Oscar too his limits but I think in the end Oscar takes home the close competitive decision.

The Surgeon
03-30-2011, 02:23 PM
I like Oscar big in this one! De la Hoya was lethal at 140, Rapid quick, powerful, big and lively i could see him stopping Tszyu in around 7.

CarlosG815
03-30-2011, 04:00 PM
Tszyu spent his entire career at 140. It seems that people are forgetting that DLH only had three fights at that weight. And the wins weren't all that incredibly impressive. So much like with Mayweather, calling Oscar great at that weight calls for plenty of speculation. Everyone should compare the fights both had with Miguel Angel Gonzalez before dismissing Tszyu's chances.

However I do admit that this would be a very close and competitive matchup that I can see either fighter winning.

Why the emphasis on the number of fights? Who cares? If you watch the style of Oscar and can appreciate how great he was it is easy to see that he is the superior fighter in every aspect. Kostya never fought a guy of the caliber of Oscar. Unlike you, I see no way that Kostya pulls off a victory over Oscar. Oscar had footwork, incredible hand speed, phenomenal power, a vicious left hook, a granite chin, and the heart and stamina to match.

Oscar by stoppage and I can not see it any other way unless Kostya were to somehow survive and Oscar were to get robbed again.

BRITISH LlON
03-30-2011, 04:31 PM
i think Tszyu is an awesome fighter, even a little bit better than de la Hoya. Tszyu by decision

The Surgeon
03-30-2011, 04:39 PM
Why the emphasis on the number of fights? Who cares? If you watch the style of Oscar and can appreciate how great he was it is easy to see that he is the superior fighter in every aspect. Kostya never fought a guy of the caliber of Oscar. Unlike you, I see no way that Kostya pulls off a victory over Oscar. Oscar had footwork, incredible hand speed, phenomenal power, a vicious left hook, a granite chin, and the heart and stamina to match.

Oscar by stoppage and I can not see it any other way unless Kostya were to somehow survive and Oscar were to get robbed again.

Im with u on this one Carlos, This IMHO is one of the easier fantasy fights to predict. ODLH just has too much, speed in particular

Scott9945
03-30-2011, 04:49 PM
Why the emphasis on the number of fights? Who cares? If you watch the style of Oscar and can appreciate how great he was it is easy to see that he is the superior fighter in every aspect. Kostya never fought a guy of the caliber of Oscar. Unlike you, I see no way that Kostya pulls off a victory over Oscar. Oscar had footwork, incredible hand speed, phenomenal power, a vicious left hook, a granite chin, and the heart and stamina to match.

Oscar by stoppage and I can not see it any other way unless Kostya were to somehow survive and Oscar were to get robbed again.


The number of fights at that weight mean something if people start calling him a beast or whatever. His three fights there consist of a cuts win over a damaged Chavez, a ho hum decision over Gonzalez, and a KO over a journeyman. So what about that is supposed to be so damn impressive?

It's obvious that the two of us strongly disagree about Oscar's prowess. He was clearly a skilled fighter with fast hands and an exceptional left hook. But his power after 135 was considerably less than "phenomonal". Aside from the Vargas KO its just not there. Who over 140 did he ever KO who was a hall of famer like KT? And he didn't show very much heart against Trinidad when he ran like a dog.

I'm upfront about DLH being one of my least favorite fighters, ever. And your sig indicates that you feel the opposite, so we're not likely to ever find common ground concerning him.

The_Demon
03-30-2011, 05:21 PM
Oscar wins a close competitive decision,people often underrate Tsyzu though

Wild Blue Yonda
03-30-2011, 09:09 PM
The number of fights at that weight mean something if people start calling him a beast or whatever. His three fights there consist of a cuts win over a damaged Chavez, a ho hum decision over Gonzalez, and a KO over a journeyman. So what about that is supposed to be so damn impressive?

It's obvious that the two of us strongly disagree about Oscar's prowess. He was clearly a skilled fighter with fast hands and an exceptional left hook. But his power after 135 was considerably less than "phenomonal". Aside from the Vargas KO its just not there. Who over 140 did he ever KO who was a hall of famer like KT? And he didn't show very much heart against Trinidad when he ran like a dog.

I'm upfront about DLH being one of my least favorite fighters, ever. And your sig indicates that you feel the opposite, so we're not likely to ever find common ground concerning him.


I don't feel Tszyu is HOF-calibre, personally --- certainly, he is far removed from sure-fire HOF-calibre.

Steak
03-31-2011, 04:10 AM
Kostya is already in the HOF.

Las Vegas,
03-31-2011, 04:29 AM
De La Hoya by a close decision. Would of been an amazing fight.

Wild Blue Yonda
03-31-2011, 05:41 AM
Kostya is already in the HOF.

I forgot about that, youre right. Rather a rash decision, for mine.

BigStereotype
03-31-2011, 11:48 AM
The gulf in class isn't as wide as people are making it out to be, but De La Hoya has the speed and the length to make Tszyu look bad.

CarlosG815
03-31-2011, 12:01 PM
The gulf in class isn't as wide as people are making it out to be, but De La Hoya has the speed and the length to make Tszyu look bad.

I think it is.... Tszyu is totally outclassed and it's by a wide margin. That's why Oscar is Oscar and Tszyu is.... Tszyu.

BigStereotype
03-31-2011, 12:18 PM
I think it is.... Tszyu is totally outclassed and it's by a wide margin. That's why Oscar is Oscar and Tszyu is.... Tszyu.

Well I know that you think it is. You rate Oscar a LOT higher than I do. That's allowed, though. I just think that Kostya was a beast and very comfortable at the weight. He could land some good stuff on Oscar but, based on the styles and physical dimensions, I would definitely give the Golden Boy the nod here.

Jim Jeffries
03-31-2011, 12:36 PM
Watching Tszyu against Forrest in the AMs, I find it a damn shame that he turned into such a head hunter in the PROs. The AM Tszyu I'd favor against Oscar, the PRO version, not so much. DLH probably catches him with the left hook mid rounds.

Steak
03-31-2011, 01:00 PM
I dont think Oscar catches him with a left hook at all. I cant remember Tyszu getting hit with too many left hooks his entire career, he always kept his right hand up to his chin, almost exactly where DLHs left hook would land.(unless it strayed up to the top of his head).

Kostya had problems with pressure fighters, and DLH was never amazing at that since his right hand was a bit underdeveloped/utilized at 140lbs. Kostya had really excellent timing, I think he could pretty quickly adapt to DLHs handspeed and start timing his right hand onto his head pretty often.

Comparing the two's performances against Gonzalez at 140lbs, they were in the same class. I see this as a close fight, where Oscar would win in spurts while Kostya controls the action inbetween those offensive assaults.

Jim Jeffries
03-31-2011, 01:33 PM
Good point, Phillips was able to get him with the right hand and Oscar's is fairly ineffective. That and given Oscar's tendency to fade in the later rounds, makes Kostya more live than those claiming he's not in DLH's class.

The_Demon
03-31-2011, 03:26 PM
I dont think Oscar catches him with a left hook at all. I cant remember Tyszu getting hit with too many left hooks his entire career, he always kept his right hand up to his chin, almost exactly where DLHs left hook would land.(unless it strayed up to the top of his head).

Kostya had problems with pressure fighters, and DLH was never amazing at that since his right hand was a bit underdeveloped/utilized at 140lbs. Kostya had really excellent timing, I think he could pretty quickly adapt to DLHs handspeed and start timing his right hand onto his head pretty often.

Comparing the two's performances against Gonzalez at 140lbs, they were in the same class. I see this as a close fight, where Oscar would win in spurts while Kostya controls the action inbetween those offensive assaults.


Good post,for people too claim their is a huge gulf between them in class is absolutely ridiculous

CarlosG815
03-31-2011, 08:00 PM
Good post,for people too claim their is a huge gulf between them in class is absolutely ridiculous

I would say their is a huge gulf and the way Oscar was able to move up in weight and dominate the way that he did is proof of this. Kostya was the king of 140, until he was beaten by Ricky Hatton, who was then known as a beast at 140 as Kostya was. Watch the style of Kostya Tszyu and tell me there is not a huge gulf in class between the two fighters. Oscar was just on another level, IMO and it shows in his massive success. Kostya was a great fighter at 140, but I am with Yonda in that he falls short of greatness, whereas DLH does not.

BigStereotype
03-31-2011, 08:03 PM
I would say their is a huge gulf and the way Oscar was able to move up in weight and dominate the way that he did is proof of this. Kostya was the king of 140, until he was beaten by Ricky Hatton, who was then known as a beast at 140 as Kostya was. Watch the style of Kostya Tszyu and tell me there is not a huge gulf in class between the two fighters. Oscar was just on another level, IMO and it shows in his massive success. Kostya was a great fighter at 140, but I am with Yonda in that he falls short of greatness, whereas DLH does not.

Exactly when did Oscar "dominate" above 140?

The_Demon
03-31-2011, 08:05 PM
Exactly when did Oscar "dominate" above 140?

By dominate he must mean losing the majority of his big fights

Steak
03-31-2011, 08:25 PM
I would say their is a huge gulf and the way Oscar was able to move up in weight and dominate the way that he did is proof of this. Kostya was the king of 140, until he was beaten by Ricky Hatton, who was then known as a beast at 140 as Kostya was. Watch the style of Kostya Tszyu and tell me there is not a huge gulf in class between the two fighters. Oscar was just on another level, IMO and it shows in his massive success. Kostya was a great fighter at 140, but I am with Yonda in that he falls short of greatness, whereas DLH does not.
without a question DLH is the greater fighter, he accomplished way more than Kostya did.

that doesnt matter in a fantasy matchup between them at 140lbs, where Kostya accomplished more than Oscar did.

watch DLH vs Gonzalez and the Kostya vs Gonzalez, and tell me there is a huge gulf in class between them at 140lbs

CarlosG815
03-31-2011, 09:01 PM
Exactly when did Oscar "dominate" above 140?

Is this a joke?

CarlosG815
03-31-2011, 09:03 PM
By dominate he must mean losing the majority of his big fights

A bogus decision to Felix Trinidad and a loss to Shane Mosley? How is that the majority? He beat Trinidad and the entire world knows it. How did you score the fight?

The only fight Oscar lost at 147 was to Shane Mosley and he made it up later at 154, despite the bogus decision.

Can you or Stereotype tell me who the most dominant welterweight was from 1997 to 2001?

Jim Jeffries
03-31-2011, 09:08 PM
I would say their is a huge gulf and the way Oscar was able to move up in weight and dominate the way that he did is proof of this. Kostya was the king of 140, until he was beaten by Ricky Hatton, who was then known as a beast at 140 as Kostya was. Watch the style of Kostya Tszyu and tell me there is not a huge gulf in class between the two fighters. Oscar was just on another level, IMO and it shows in his massive success. Kostya was a great fighter at 140, but I am with Yonda in that he falls short of greatness, whereas DLH does not.

Yeah I'm not sure you can encapsulate Tszyu's career by looking at the faded, inactive version that was mugged all night by Hatton. Perhaps you should watch some of his fights from, I don't know, his prime, perhaps.

CarlosG815
03-31-2011, 09:10 PM
Yeah I'm not sure you can encapsulate Tszyu's career by looking at the faded, inactive version that was mugged all night by Hatton. Perhaps you should watch some of his fights from, I don't know, his prime, perhaps.

I wouldn't expect you to see the point of what I was saying. My point was that the likes of Ricky Hatton was king at 140 for a time, implying that the title of "beast at 140" or "best at 140" isn't saying much.

Jackass as usual, Jeffries.

Jim Jeffries
03-31-2011, 09:17 PM
I wouldn't expect you to see the point of what I was saying. My point was that the likes of Ricky Hatton was king at 140 for a time, implying that the title of "beast at 140" or "best at 140" isn't saying much.

Jackass as usual, Jeffries.

If you ignore the fact that Tszyu was king of 140 for a decade before Hatton, then perhaps. Try to keep the ad hominems to a minimum, okay kiddo?

Even during Hatton's reign, there were guys like Mayweather and Cotto. Maybe you've heard of them?

CarlosG815
03-31-2011, 09:30 PM
If you ignore the fact that Tszyu was king of 140 for a decade before Hatton, then perhaps. Try to keep the ad hominems to a minimum, okay kiddo?

Even during Hatton's reign, there were guys like Mayweather and Cotto. Maybe you've heard of them?

Still don't get it? Ok. Being the "man" at 140 isn't saying a lot when there is nobody in the division, ie Ricky Hatton being the "man" and getting stomped when he fought a great fighter in Mayweather. Tszyu would be no exception and stepping into the class of DLH would get beat up just the same as Hatton when he stepped up in competition.

RubenSonny
03-31-2011, 09:39 PM
If you ignore the fact that Tszyu was king of 140 for a decade before Hatton, then perhaps. Try to keep the ad hominems to a minimum, okay kiddo?

Even during Hatton's reign, there were guys like Mayweather and Cotto. Maybe you've heard of them?

Thats not really true though.

Jim Jeffries
03-31-2011, 09:42 PM
Still don't get it? Ok. Being the "man" at 140 isn't saying a lot when there is nobody in the division, ie Ricky Hatton being the "man" and getting stomped when he fought a great fighter in Mayweather. Tszyu would be no exception and stepping into the class of DLH would get beat up just the same as Hatton when he stepped up in competition.

Again ignoring that the Floyd fight was at a weight that Hatton had already proved himself less effective in the Collazo fight (which I had Ricky losing by a point.) Hatton was really only "the man" at 140 from beating Tszyu's shell (with help from the ref.) And because Cotto and Mayweather didn't fight him there.

Anyhow, Oscar could've fought Tszyu back in 96 early 97, while he was passing through, but chose not to. I think if it was as ridiculously easy a fight as you portend, he would have.

Thats not really true though.

I'll bite. Who was a better 140 lber from 1995 to 2005? (besides Floyd who chose to fight Gatti instead)

RubenSonny
03-31-2011, 09:59 PM
Again ignoring that the Floyd fight was at a weight that Hatton had already proved himself less effective in the Collazo fight (which I had Ricky losing by a point.) Hatton was really only "the man" at 140 from beating Tszyu's shell (with help from the ref.) And because Cotto and Mayweather didn't fight him there.

Anyhow, Oscar could've fought Tszyu back in 96 early 97, while he was passing through, but chose not to. I think if it was as ridiculously easy a fight as you portend, he would have.



I'll bite. Who was a better 140 lber from 1995 to 2005? (besides Floyd who chose to fight Gatti instead)

Well I think calling him the "king" for 10 years is a pretty simplistic way of putting it, he wasn't consistently on top for 10 years, he lost to Phillips in '97(making him ranked #1 for that year) without avenging the loss, he wasn't champion until smashing Zab in 2 (though he did fight some good competition in between), then there's the inactivity where he fought once a year against so-so competition.

Jim Jeffries
03-31-2011, 10:10 PM
Well I think calling him the "king" for 10 years is a pretty simplistic way of putting it, he wasn't consistently on top for 10 years, he lost to Phillips in '97(making him ranked #1 for that year) without avenging the loss, he wasn't champion until smashing Zab in 2 (though he did fight some good competition in between), then there's the inactivity where he fought once a year against so-so competition.

Fair enough. He was definitely inactive toward the end of his career, but since by that point he was considered #2 p4p, and he never left 140, I'd say he was certainly the man to beat.

Phillips losing 6 times during the rest of Tszyu's career certainly didn't help his chances of getting a rematch.

RubenSonny
03-31-2011, 10:20 PM
Fair enough. He was definitely inactive toward the end of his career, but since by that point he was considered #2 p4p, and he never left 140, I'd say he was certainly the man to beat.

Yeah of course he was the true champ, its just that it wasn't 10 solid years of dominance.


Phillips losing 6 times during the rest of Tszyu's career certainly didn't help his chances of getting a rematch.

Phillips was very hit and miss, which was annoying I'd like to have seen a rematch.

Now going even further off topic, I loved Ikes performance/KO here.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fyiNJLF525Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Steak
03-31-2011, 10:22 PM
Fair enough. He was definitely inactive toward the end of his career, but since by that point he was considered #2 p4p, and he never left 140, I'd say he was certainly the man to beat.

Phillips losing 6 times during the rest of Tszyu's career certainly didn't help his chances of getting a rematch.
Kostya should have rematched him anyway. its a pretty glaring loss on his record. Its like Khan and Prescott...sure, Prescott doesnt deserve a title shot, but if I were Khan/Kostya I would have definitely wanted to avenge my only loss, even if it was a non-title side fight.

-Huey-
03-31-2011, 10:45 PM
This was Oscar's best time...he was a freakin beast at 140 powerful, lightning fast combinations and incredible energy. DLH batters Tzyu to a mid rounds TKO. Great fight this would have been.

BigStereotype
04-01-2011, 12:22 AM
Is this a joke?

Ok...so...

We have an extremely debatable decision win over a past-it Whitaker
Not even going to mention Chavez...
UD win over Camacho
Debatable (although less so) win over Quartey
TKO over Oba Carr
Extremely debatable loss to Tito
Clear loss to Mosley
Annihilation of Gatti

There. There's Oscar's welterweight resume. He has ONE clear win over a good fighter, that's Oba Carr. Camacho and Chavez were old, small and addled by drugs. Bull**** losses. Either guy could win the Whitaker fight, it's really close, he didn't look at all "dominant." Either guy could win the Quartey fight, not quite as close, didn't look "dominant" in that won either. Bull**** loss to Tito, but I feel like that makes up for the bad karma from the Whitaker fight. He gave away the last third of that fight, didn't deserve to win it although he outfought Trinidad. And then he lost a competitive fight to Mosley. Shane CLEARLY beat him though.

So exactly where is this "domination?"

CarlosG815
04-01-2011, 09:45 AM
Ok...so...

We have an extremely debatable decision win over a past-it Whitaker
Not even going to mention Chavez...
UD win over Camacho
Debatable (although less so) win over Quartey
TKO over Oba Carr
Extremely debatable loss to Tito
Clear loss to Mosley
Annihilation of Gatti

There. There's Oscar's welterweight resume. He has ONE clear win over a good fighter, that's Oba Carr. Camacho and Chavez were old, small and addled by drugs. Bull**** losses. Either guy could win the Whitaker fight, it's really close, he didn't look at all "dominant." Either guy could win the Quartey fight, not quite as close, didn't look "dominant" in that won either. Bull**** loss to Tito, but I feel like that makes up for the bad karma from the Whitaker fight. He gave away the last third of that fight, didn't deserve to win it although he outfought Trinidad. And then he lost a competitive fight to Mosley. Shane CLEARLY beat him though.

So exactly where is this "domination?"

You have yet to tell me who was the more dominant welterweight and for you to say debatable decision over Whitaker tells me you have not seen the fights. That is a fight where people like to say Oscar got a gift but if you watch it you will see this is not the case.

You have just picked apart a beautiful resume. Please tell me who was more dominant and who Oscar should have fought, as what you have done above can be done to any fighter and much easier and could be made to look worse

He did lose to Shane Mosley but as you said it was a very competitive fight and that is to a guy who was juiced up on steroids and despite being a steroid freak Oscar was able to beat him at 154, as he did a steroid freak in Vargas as well.

You don't have to like Oscar but don't ignore the question at hand.

BennyST
04-01-2011, 10:26 AM
Tszyu KO'S delehojo in seven. Tszyu applies too much pressure.

Huh? Serious? Don't be a tosser.

I don't know. I think I'd probably go with an Oscar decision in a close fight he got dropped in and was very close. I think a lot of people underrated Tzsyu now, but if we're talking at their best, it's a bloody close fight.

However, I'd probably give the edge to Oscar. Saying that, the common opponents were beaten by Tzsyu a hell of lot worse, so it's hard to say.

BennyST
04-01-2011, 10:36 AM
Kostya should have rematched him anyway. its a pretty glaring loss on his record. Its like Khan and Prescott...sure, Prescott doesnt deserve a title shot, but if I were Khan/Kostya I would have definitely wanted to avenge my only loss, even if it was a non-title side fight.

I've always found this bizarre. You have brought up the perfect example too! Recently Khan beat Maidana and a lot was brought up of the Prescott rematch even though (just as had happened with Tzsyu/Phillips) Prescott had lost to someone who could be considered less than a top fighter, while Khan was beating the best, and while Prescott had taken a massive dive, Khan had surged forward.

But, what's the worst part is that 95% of boxing fans said that if Khan takes a Prescott rematch it would show he's just trying to ***** out of any bigger fights and get away with beating crappy fighters that he didn't need to deal with. There was so much of that and I, for one, remember that that was exactly how it was back when Tzsyu came back and started destroying guys again and looking even more brutal. No one wanted to even consider that fight.

Boxing is a funny old game isn't it? Khan was being slagged horribly for even considering the thought of taking a Prescott rematch and yet in another fifteen/twenty years, he's going to be getting so much ****e for not taking it it'll hurt his standing in any HOF-type standing if he gets that far....guaranteed.

BennyST
04-01-2011, 10:39 AM
Thats not really true though.

Explain that one for all of us. especially those of us who would have considered someone like Hopkins king at 160, Martinez king at 160, Darch king at 115, etc etc.

BennyST
04-01-2011, 10:45 AM
Well I think calling him the "king" for 10 years is a pretty simplistic way of putting it, he wasn't consistently on top for 10 years, he lost to Phillips in '97(making him ranked #1 for that year) without avenging the loss, he wasn't champion until smashing Zab in 2 (though he did fight some good competition in between), then there's the inactivity where he fought once a year against so-so competition.

So, you're saying that Hopkins was only the number one middleweight in the world for one measly year?!?!?!

That is pretty sad. I'd always heard he was the number one guy for nearly a decade.....obviously everyone is wrong.

BennyST
04-01-2011, 10:48 AM
Still don't get it? Ok. Being the "man" at 140 isn't saying a lot when there is nobody in the division, ie Ricky Hatton being the "man" and getting stomped when he fought a great fighter in Mayweather. Tszyu would be no exception and stepping into the class of DLH would get beat up just the same as Hatton when he stepped up in competition.

Ummmm......how was Tzsyu the 'man' when Ricky Hatton was losing to Mayweather in 2009 or whatever?

BennyST
04-01-2011, 10:55 AM
I dont think Oscar catches him with a left hook at all. I cant remember Tyszu getting hit with too many left hooks his entire career, he always kept his right hand up to his chin, almost exactly where DLHs left hook would land.(unless it strayed up to the top of his head).

Kostya had problems with pressure fighters, and DLH was never amazing at that since his right hand was a bit underdeveloped/utilized at 140lbs. Kostya had really excellent timing, I think he could pretty quickly adapt to DLHs handspeed and start timing his right hand onto his head pretty often.

Comparing the two's performances against Gonzalez at 140lbs, they were in the same class. I see this as a close fight, where Oscar would win in spurts while Kostya controls the action inbetween those offensive assaults.

As often the case, BI comes in with one of the few unbiased posts. Due to the styles, I really see this as a very close fight with oscar's hand speed and finishing flurries stealing the rounds late just enough.

Other than that, he really doesn't do anything that ever troubled Tzsyu in the slightest.

House of Stone
04-01-2011, 11:02 AM
as much as i like tszyu I'd be surprised if oscar didn't get the better of this one

BigStereotype
04-01-2011, 12:01 PM
You have yet to tell me who was the more dominant welterweight and for you to say debatable decision over Whitaker tells me you have not seen the fights. That is a fight where people like to say Oscar got a gift but if you watch it you will see this is not the case.

You have just picked apart a beautiful resume. Please tell me who was more dominant and who Oscar should have fought, as what you have done above can be done to any fighter and much easier and could be made to look worse

He did lose to Shane Mosley but as you said it was a very competitive fight and that is to a guy who was juiced up on steroids and despite being a steroid freak Oscar was able to beat him at 154, as he did a steroid freak in Vargas as well.

You don't have to like Oscar but don't ignore the question at hand.

Nobody was more dominant because nobody was dominant for the era. Not every era has a Marvin Hagler. Because of the quality of welterweights at the time, they beat each other up and lost to each other.

Also, most people say that the Sweet Pea decision is at the very least questionable. At the very least.

Steak
04-01-2011, 01:19 PM
So, you're saying that Hopkins was only the number one middleweight in the world for one measly year?!?!?!

That is pretty sad. I'd always heard he was the number one guy for nearly a decade.....obviously everyone is wrong.
Personally I dont think you could have considered Hopkins the undeniable #1 in the division until he beat Keith Holmes.

IMDAZED
04-01-2011, 01:38 PM
Tszyu spent his entire career at 140. It seems that people are forgetting that DLH only had three fights at that weight. And the wins weren't all that incredibly impressive. So much like with Mayweather, calling Oscar great at that weight calls for plenty of speculation. Everyone should compare the fights both had with Miguel Angel Gonzalez before dismissing Tszyu's chances.

However I do admit that this would be a very close and competitive matchup that I can see either fighter winning.

Agreed. Plus, Gonzalez was able to touch Oscar up in the latter rounds of their fight. I think Oscar would have tons of trouble with Tszyu at 140.

Holtol
04-01-2011, 04:22 PM
Anyone watching boxing during that time like I was, has something wrong with them if they favor Kostya in this fight. People mentioning that Kostya out performed Oscar against the same opponents!?!? Give me a break! Chavez was on his last legs when Kostya fought him! He was washed up when Oscar fought him and everyone knew it.

I am supriesed and disapointed at how many people are against Oscar . People complaining how he ran the last few rounds against Trinadad and deserved to lose? Oscar won that fight, and most people would have done the same thing as Oscar if they were up in the fight the way he was. You don't engage a fighter like Trindad when you are winning a fight. Thats crazy.

TheMexHurricane
04-01-2011, 04:30 PM
Everyone should compare the fights both had with Miguel Angel Gonzalez before dismissing Tszyu's chances.



Chavez drew with Gonzalez after Oscar easily annihalated Chavez. With your theory Chavez should've done as well as Gonzalez?

Steak
04-01-2011, 04:42 PM
Chavez drew with Gonzalez after Oscar easily annihalated Chavez. With your theory Chavez should've done as well as Gonzalez?

Chavez went into the DLH fight with a pre existing injury that made him bleed all over the place, he never had a chance in that fight.

and when they rematched later at Welterweight 2+ years later Chavez actually didnt do half bad all things considered. made it an exciting fight at least.
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also Chavez didnt do THAT bad against DLH in the first fight...he landed some decent left hooks, more flush than anything Gonzalez was able to land. The cut just erases any memory of that.

slicksouthpaw16
04-01-2011, 05:34 PM
The number of fights at that weight mean something if people start calling him a beast or whatever. His three fights there consist of a cuts win over a damaged Chavez, a ho hum decision over Gonzalez, and a KO over a journeyman. So what about that is supposed to be so damn impressive?

It's obvious that the two of us strongly disagree about Oscar's prowess. He was clearly a skilled fighter with fast hands and an exceptional left hook. But his power after 135 was considerably less than "phenomonal". Aside from the Vargas KO its just not there. Who over 140 did he ever KO who was a hall of famer like KT? And he didn't show very much heart against Trinidad when he ran like a dog.

I'm upfront about DLH being one of my least favorite fighters, ever. And your sig indicates that you feel the opposite, so we're not likely to ever find common ground concerning him.


Tszyu seemed like he was hard to out box from distance because he did have great timing (as someone mentioned), i think this fight would be more interesting than some people may think, especially since his only two losses are against aggressive fighters that physically wore him down. I remember he was even out boxing Judah in the second round before the KO.

RubenSonny
04-01-2011, 06:49 PM
So, you're saying that Hopkins was only the number one middleweight in the world for one measly year?!?!?!

That is pretty sad. I'd always heard he was the number one guy for nearly a decade.....obviously everyone is wrong.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion....he was number 1 or champion from 95-05 if I'm not mistaken.

I just thought calling him "king" for a decade was a rather simplistic way of putting it, did you even read my post?

The_Demon
04-01-2011, 06:53 PM
Anyone watching boxing during that time like I was, has something wrong with them if they favor Kostya in this fight. People mentioning that Kostya out performed Oscar against the same opponents!?!? Give me a break! Chavez was on his last legs when Kostya fought him! He was washed up when Oscar fought him and everyone knew it.

I am supriesed and disapointed at how many people are against Oscar . People complaining how he ran the last few rounds against Trinadad and deserved to lose? Oscar won that fight, and most people would have done the same thing as Oscar if they were up in the fight the way he was. You don't engage a fighter like Trindad when you are winning a fight. Thats crazy.

Has anybody said they favour Kostya in this one? I dont think they have

He would be competitive against Oscar,who didnt blow anybody away at the weight that was half as good as KT

Holtol
04-01-2011, 07:44 PM
Has anybody said they favour Kostya in this one? I dont think they have

He would be competitive against Oscar,who didnt blow anybody away at the weight that was half as good as KT

I was under the impression that some people favoured Kostya in the fight. But looking over the thread again quickly I can see you are right, no one favored Kostya. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

The_Demon
04-01-2011, 07:56 PM
I was under the impression that some people favoured Kostya in the fight. But looking over the thread again quickly I can see you are right, no one favored Kostya. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

I can see why you thought that too be fair,quite a few people in here rate Tsyzu very highly,me included

Holtol
04-01-2011, 09:15 PM
I can see why you thought that too be fair,quite a few people in here rate Tsyzu very highly,me included

Some of the things posted about Oscar in another thread bothered me a little also. I think Kostya is good, I am actually a fan of his. but I don't think he could handle Oscar.

The_Demon
04-01-2011, 09:21 PM
Some of the things posted about Oscar in another thread bothered me a little also. I think Kostya is good, I am actually a fan of his. but I don't think he could handle Oscar.

Na i dont think he would beat Oscar either,but believe he would be more competitive than some people think

DarkTerror88
04-01-2011, 09:22 PM
This is a very competitive fight that goes the distance. I can see either man winning. in a trilogy it be split with it being highly debatable. After the Judah fight i dont count Tszyu out anymore. I heavily favored Zab to beat him.

ehhhh. my gut tells me Tszyu, so im going with him.

BennyST
04-02-2011, 10:45 PM
Personally I dont think you could have considered Hopkins the undeniable #1 in the division until he beat Keith Holmes.

I agree actually. I've seen some of these guys argue that Hopkins was king for a decade though. Usual double standard stuff.

If we only ever went on who the Undisputed champ is though, there wouldn't be a single fighter today who is considered the man properly.

Tzsyu was one of only two or three fighters in all of boxing over the last decade before his retirement to be the Undisputed champion. That's saying something.

BennyST
04-02-2011, 10:55 PM
I don't know how you came to that conclusion....he was number 1 or champion from 95-05 if I'm not mistaken.

I just thought calling him "king" for a decade was a rather simplistic way of putting it, did you even read my post?

As was Tzsyu. However, in these cases we look at who the best fighter was subjectively and go with it from there. Tzsyu was champion at 140 through basically the same time frame. He wasn't the Undisputed champ though just as Hopkins wasn't. In fact, Hopkins was only Undisputed champ for one year, however we call him the king of 160 for a decade do we not between those times you mentioned?

If you go by what you say regarding Tzsyu though, then Hopkins was only the true number one middleweight for a year too. It is rather simplistic but you just called Hopkins number one for a decade too did you not? Is that also simplistic? Because we could also say he wasn't.

Apart from the short period in which he lost to Phillips, the rest of the time he was the man to beat at 140 and was ranked in the top P4P lists throughout that whole time.

It wasn't official until he beat Judah, just as Hopkins' wasn't official until he beat Holmes though. Just as you said regarding Hopkins though, Tzsyu was the best fighter there, the most consistent fighter there and the only fighter to have beaten all the other champions and number one and two contenders the whole time he was champion. To most people, that equates to being the king of a division.

Most people would call Pac king of 147 now, and he hasn't gotten close to doing what Hopkins or Tzsyu did in regards to cleaning out the division.

Anyway, this is besides the point really. I think it would be a close fight. Tzsyu had trouble with things other than what Oscar would bring and I think it would be a hard close fight for both. However, Tzsyu excelled in the type of fight that Oscar would bring to him. A slow, technical game with a lot of time to reset, think and act.

RubenSonny
04-03-2011, 02:46 PM
As was Tzsyu. However, in these cases we look at who the best fighter was subjectively and go with it from there. Tzsyu was champion at 140 through basically the same time frame. He wasn't the Undisputed champ though just as Hopkins wasn't. In fact, Hopkins was only Undisputed champ for one year, however we call him the king of 160 for a decade do we not between those times you mentioned?

I was never said anything undisputed I was refferring to lineal.

If you go by what you say regarding Tzsyu though, then Hopkins was only the true number one middleweight for a year too. It is rather simplistic but you just called Hopkins number one for a decade too did you not? Is that also simplistic? Because we could also say he wasn't.

Number one contender is what I meant, and he was for a long time.

Apart from the short period in which he lost to Phillips, the rest of the time he was the man to beat at 140 and was ranked in the top P4P lists throughout that whole time.

Which is very key.

It wasn't official until he beat Judah, just as Hopkins' wasn't official until he beat Holmes though. Just as you said regarding Hopkins though, Tzsyu was the best fighter there, the most consistent fighter there and the only fighter to have beaten all the other champions and number one and two contenders the whole time he was champion. To most people, that equates to being the king of a division.

You yourself said you didn't think Hopkins was the king of the division for 10 years, I don't think he was either, I'm not sure what were disagreeing about now.

Most people would call Pac king of 147 now, and he hasn't gotten close to doing what Hopkins or Tzsyu did in regards to cleaning out the division.

I certainly don't regard him as the king of the division.

Anyway, this is besides the point really. I think it would be a close fight. Tzsyu had trouble with things other than what Oscar would bring and I think it would be a hard close fight for both. However, Tzsyu excelled in the type of fight that Oscar would bring to him. A slow, technical game with a lot of time to reset, think and act.

I agree Tzsyu would have plenty of time to 'sharpshoot', I can imagine him landing some eye catching solid punches in a chessmatch, I'm not decided on who would win though.

RubenSonny
04-03-2011, 02:48 PM
I agree actually. I've seen some of these guys argue that Hopkins was king for a decade though. Usual double standard stuff.

If we only ever went on who the Undisputed champ is though, there wouldn't be a single fighter today who is considered the man properly.

Tzsyu was one of only two or three fighters in all of boxing over the last decade before his retirement to be the Undisputed champion. That's saying something.

I disputed the claim of him having the record middleweight defenses before this post...no double standard from me, and for the record I think Tzsyu was a good fighter and best at 140 in that time period.

Edit: infact reflecting upon it, it wouldn't really be a double standard anyway, Hopkins remained number 1 contender/champion going unbeaten the whole time, Tzsyu lost, had a pretty nice run up to Judah and became very inactive, thats why I thought it was simplistic to call him the king of the division for 10 years.

RFPROBOX
04-03-2011, 03:11 PM
I disputed the claim of him having the record middleweight defenses before this post...no double standard from me, and for the record I think Tzsyu was a good fighter and best at 140 in that time period.

Edit: infact reflecting upon it, it wouldn't really be a double standard anyway, Hopkins remained number 1 contender/champion going unbeaten the whole time, Tzsyu lost, had a pretty nice run up to Judah and became very inactive, thats why I thought it was simplistic to call him the king of the division for 10 years.

The difference being Tyrone, is that Tszyu fought in a much more honorable way than Hopkins. Ol Bernard liked to fake injuries, fought dirty, and fought like a coward more than once.

joseph5620
04-03-2011, 03:14 PM
The difference being Tyrone, is that Tszyu fought in a much more honorable way than Hopkins. Ol Bernard liked to fake injuries, fought dirty, and fought like a coward more than once.






You sure have a big mouth for somebody who "boxed" their way to a 6-10-1 professional record.

Ziggy Stardust
04-03-2011, 03:18 PM
Ol Bernard liked to fake injuries

Like Vitali

fought dirty

Like Quarry

and fought like a coward more than once

Like Wlad does all the time.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
04-03-2011, 03:19 PM
a 6-10-1 professional record.

Can we say "tomato can" :hahahaha9:

RubenSonny
04-03-2011, 04:44 PM
The difference being Tyrone, is that Tszyu fought in a much more honorable way than Hopkins. Ol Bernard liked to fake injuries, fought dirty, and fought like a coward more than once.

Change!
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You sure have a big mouth for somebody who "boxed" their way to a 6-10-1 professional record.

:lol1::lol1: who the **** is this guy?

TouchyAndalou
04-05-2011, 06:58 PM
I would say their is a huge gulf and the way Oscar was able to move up in weight and dominate the way that he did is proof of this. Kostya was the king of 140, until he was beaten by Ricky Hatton, who was then known as a beast at 140 as Kostya was. Watch the style of Kostya Tszyu and tell me there is not a huge gulf in class between the two fighters. Oscar was just on another level, IMO and it shows in his massive success. Kostya was a great fighter at 140, but I am with Yonda in that he falls short of greatness, whereas DLH does not.This doesn't make a lot of sense. Oscar was purposely started and kept at lower weights for much of his early career, to enable him to dominate naturally smaller men in exciting style. So it wasn't simply case of Oscar being able to rise through the weights because he was such a phenomenal talent; his height, reach and frame were always suited to weights of 140 and 147. Tszyu on the other hand was a natural 140-pounder, short and stocky, and spent the entirety of his career there, which I don't think is indicative of a gulf in class between the two men, but rather attributable to the physical differences between them.

Having said that, I do think it's a bit of shame that Tszyu never campaigned 7 pounds north, as 147 was where most of the intriguing match-ups were for him. Regarding this fight though, I think it's certainly competitive at 140 pounds. I'd probably give a bit of an edge to De La Hoya, who might shoe shine his way to a tight decision.

Wild Blue Yonda
04-05-2011, 07:56 PM
This doesn't make a lot of sense. Oscar was purposely started and kept at lower weights for much of his early career, to enable him to dominate naturally smaller men in exciting style. So it wasn't simply case of Oscar being able to rise through the weights because he was such a phenomenal talent; his height, reach and frame were always suited to weights of 140 and 147. Tszyu on the other hand was a natural 140-pounder, short and stocky, and spent the entirety of his career there, which I don't think is indicative of a gulf in class between the two men, but rather attributable to the physical differences between them.

Having said that, I do think it's a bit of shame that Tszyu never campaigned 7 pounds north, as 147 was where most of the intriguing match-ups were for him. Regarding this fight though, I think it's certainly competitive at 140 pounds. I'd probably give a bit of an edge to De La Hoya, who might shoe shine his way to a tight decision.

Shoe-shine? Make no mistake, De La Hoya at 135-140lbs. had massive, massive hitting power, & he was not fearful of utilising it.

McGoorty
07-19-2011, 12:40 AM
I was under the impression that some people favoured Kostya in the fight. But looking over the thread again quickly I can see you are right, no one favored Kostya. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

:boxing:I do favor TSZYU in this one Oscar was a little too scrawny at 140 for my liking and he was a mere passerby at the weight. Oscar's main advantage here is his reach, I think Tszyu's speed is massively underated, I think they are about even, TSZYU was the better man at amateur level (unbeatable), in the punch power category I've read a lot here about Oscar's power but Tszyu was probably the greatest power merchant of EVERY Jr. Welter since the days of Kid Berg and at 140 way superior to Oscars, Tszyu lost only 2 fights and I've lost count of Oscars losses ( I laughed hard when a Ex-Flyweight champ made Oscar look Very oxerrated When the Great One won every second of every round, just try to imagine Carmen Basilio getting battered by Eder Jofre, Yeah totally inconcievable eh, yeah Oscar dissapointed me that day, I still can't get my head around it . ),. . Oscar may try for a points win and could win by that route, but try to stand and trade with Kostya would be suicide as Kostya would land that big one and good night golden boy, I can only pick Kostya over the short route. Kostya is the best at 140 since Pryor. By the way the bout should be over the full Championship 15. Now if Kostya tried to fight Oscar at Jr. Middleweight, Oscar would be certain winner there and 9 to one betting favorite but we're TALKIN 140. Now guys don't get outta total control.:omfg:

Wild Blue Yonda
07-19-2011, 03:54 AM
Pacquiao wouldve beaten Tszyu if hed fought him at the end of his career & made him come down to LW - equivalent circumstances & Id bet on Pacquiao to crunch Tszyu.

Hell, I think I would favour Pacquiao to beat a prime Tszyu at 140, which I wouldnt if Pacquiao fought De La Hoya at WW around the time he was touching gloves with Trinidad & Mosley.

Youre also well off-base to say Tszyu has far more power at 140 than De La Hoya. Hes just a flat inferior fighter to De La Hoya, giving up too many advantages to win.

IMDAZED
07-19-2011, 07:10 AM
I like Oscar big in this one! De la Hoya was lethal at 140, Rapid quick, powerful, big and lively i could see him stopping Tszyu in around 7.

I don't recall Oscar being that lethal at 140 but maybe I'm forgetting something. He did look good against Gonzalez but I wasn't blown away or anything. I think Tszyu is a tough fight for him but he's got a little much of everything to lose to Kostya. De La Hoya UD12

New England
07-19-2011, 07:16 AM
i got a name for the card


thunderpunchers!


haha!

i think de la hoya wins on the jab
ud
maybe 8-4 in a solid but not great / super high contact fight

jrosales13
07-19-2011, 02:43 PM
Stop saying Oscar was a beast at 140 because he wasn't. His power wasn't amazing at that weight either. He only had 3 fights against Darryl Tyson, JCC, and MAGO.

Tyson was blah. JCC already had a cut that was open in training camp and got re-open the fight. Also, JCC was an old fighter already. He beat MAGO was a top rated fighter at the time by decision. But, also got marked up in that fight. There was nothing "lethal" by this performances.

I think you guys are confusing the 140 Oscar with the 135 Oscar. Where he actually was at his best. Had size, power, speed, strength, length over his opponents. At 135 is where he showed lethal power and looked like a beast. Dominated Rafael Rules, Jesse James Leija, and Jorge Paez. Stopped Genaro "Chicanito" Hernandez(RIP), and won a decision over John John Molina(it was an eh..fight) all rated guys at the time and most were at their prime, peak.

Anyways saying all that. I think Oscar size, length, height, speed and bull**** flurries would be enough to get a decision against Kostya. I will say this if anybody got dropped or hurt in this fight it would have been Oscar. Since I believe that Kostya would have had a better chance landing his right hand more so than Oscar landing his left hook. If Oscar had a good right hand he probably could have stopped Kostya. But, he didn't so yea....

hebi
07-19-2011, 03:04 PM
De La Hoya had some nice advantages in height and speed, the style matchup though is a bit odd.

Tszyu's major weaknesses were to pressure fighters and good right hands, while DLH had one of the worst right hands of all time. Tszyu did a good job neutralizing hooks as well as jabs, and also fought well against taller fighters. I could see both guys scoring KDs in the fight, and I think Tszyu would give Oscar a lot of problems at that weight. I think I'd have to favor DLH, but it would have been one of the toughest fights he ever fought. DLH had a lot of physical advantages, Tszyu would have been physically stronger and a lot smarter though.

The Surgeon
07-19-2011, 03:49 PM
Oscar at 140 knocks seven shades of ***** out of Zoo, KO win

jrosales13
07-20-2011, 01:12 AM
I don't understand why people are making Oscar look like some kind of beast at 140? At 135, yea he was a beast. At 140? He never showed any beasty nature.

So overrated :nonono:

-Huey-
07-20-2011, 01:22 AM
Oscar was an explosion of energy at this weight. His very quick hands, power, and footwork would be too much. Tzyu was a hell of a fighter but Oscar was a monster at 140.

Oscar KO6 in a classic war.

jrosales13
07-20-2011, 01:34 AM
Oscar was an explosion of energy at this weight. His very quick hands, power, and footwork would be too much. Tzyu was a hell of a fighter but Oscar was a monster at 140.

Oscar KO6 in a classic war.

Really? You were really impressed by the Daryll Tyson fight eh?

:lol1:

PunchesNbuncheS
07-20-2011, 01:59 AM
Good fight but Oscar wins.