View Full Version : Top to ATG WW?


Pastrano
03-23-2011, 12:48 PM
Ok, I know this is an extremely prestigious division, but can you make a list of guys you think are the 10 best welters of all time? This is based on their achievements in that division, moreso than who was the p4p best fighter.

1. Armstrong
2. SRR
3. Napoles
4. Griffith
5. Rodriguez
6. De La Hoya
7. Gavilan
8. Leonard
9. Hearns
10. Curry

P.S. Only retired fighters count.

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 12:57 PM
Ok, I know this is an extremely prestigious division, but can you make a list of guys you think are the 10 best welters of all time? This is based on their achievements in that division, moreso than who was the p4p best fighter.

1. Armstrong
2. SRR
3. Napoles
4. Griffith
5. Rodriguez
6. De La Hoya
7. Gavilan
8. Curry
9. Hearns
10. Leonard

P.S. Only retired fighters count.

I have no idea how you have Curry, Hearns and DLH above Leonard, I'll try and find my list, I posted it awhile back in a different thread.

Edit: and Leonard on par with Trinidad.

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 12:59 PM
I have no idea how you have Curry, Hearns and DLH above Leonard, I'll try and find my list, I posted it awhile back in a different thread.

Edit: and Leonard on par with Trinidad.

Actually, on second thought youre right. Leonard did beat Benitez and Hearns. His second fight with Duran I dont count a win tho. DLH beats Leonard imo. He also beat more great fighters, oficially or not, at 147. And made more defenses.

IronDanHamza
03-23-2011, 01:04 PM
My personal list;

1.Sugar Ray Robinson
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Jose Napoles
4.Emile Griffith
5.Sugar Ray Leonard
6.Kid Gavilian
7.Joe Walcott
8.Tommy Hearns
9.Mickey Walker
10.Ted Kid Lewis

*updated.

It's so difficult to rank this divison.

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 01:10 PM
My personal list;

1.Sugar Ray Robinson
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Jose Napoles
4.Sugar Ray Leonard
5.Emile Griffith
6.Kid Gavilian
7.Tommy Hearns
8.Joe Walcott
9.Luis Manuel Rodriguez
10.Ted Kid Lewis
No DLH?!?:nonono:

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 01:12 PM
Actually, on second thought youre right. Leonard did beat Benitez and Hearns. His second fight with Duran I dont count a win tho. DLH beats Leonard imo. He also beat more great fighters, oficially or not, at 147. And made more defenses.

No he didn't and Whitaker was badly faded against DLH, whats DLH beating Leonard in a H2H gotta do with anything (I completely disagree with that too), quality>quantity and what is your reason for not counting the Duran rematch as a win?

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 01:14 PM
1. Ray Robinson
2. Joe Walcott
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Ray Leonard
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Emile Griffith
7. Jose Napoles
8. Barney Ross
9. Jimmy Mclarnin
10. Thomas Hearns

Thats mine, I posted it in Surgeons thread some time ago.

IronDanHamza
03-23-2011, 01:16 PM
No DLH?!?:nonono:

Nope.

De La Hoya is probably somewhere between 11-15 for me. Maybe lower.

IronDanHamza
03-23-2011, 01:20 PM
Actually, on second thought youre right. Leonard did beat Benitez and Hearns. His second fight with Duran I dont count a win tho. DLH beats Leonard imo. He also beat more great fighters, oficially or not, at 147. And made more defenses.

How's that then?

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 01:29 PM
How's that then?

Well, every fool knows he beat Trinidad but was denied the win. He beat Whitaker, Camacho, Chavez, Quartey, Carr and Rivera, prime or not the first 3 are great names. Quartey is a borderline great, Carr and Rivera very good. Trinidad is considered a great.

Ziggy Stardust
03-23-2011, 01:34 PM
01. Ray Robinson
02. Henry Armstrong
03. Ray Leonard
04. Kid Gavilan
05. Jose Napoles
06. Barney Ross
07. Jimmy McLarnin
08. Thomas Hearns
09. Emile Griffith
10. Antonio Cervantes
11. Wilfred Benitez
12. Oscar De La Hoya
13. Shane Mosley
14. Felix Trinidad
15. Duilio Loi
16. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
17. Tommy Ryan
18. Luis Rodriguez
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Aaron Pryor

BigStereotype
03-23-2011, 01:34 PM
Well, every fool knows he beat Trinidad but was denied the win. He beat Whitaker, Camacho, Chavez, Quartey, Carr and Rivera, prime or not the first 3 are great names. Quartey is a borderline great, Carr and Rivera very good. Trinidad is considered a great.

Leonard's wins over primed Hearns and Benitez (KO wins, nonetheless) waaaaaaaaay outstrip all of those. Whitaker was on the downside, Camacho and Chavez were barely half of what they once were.

Barn
03-23-2011, 01:35 PM
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Ray Leonard
4. Walcott
5. Jose Napoles
6. Kid Gavilan
7. Griffith
8. McLarlin
9. Ross
10. Britton

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 01:36 PM
Well, every fool knows he beat Trinidad but was denied the win. He beat Whitaker, Camacho, Chavez, Quartey, Carr and Rivera, prime or not the first 3 are great names. Quartey is a borderline great, Carr and Rivera very good. Trinidad is considered a great.

Trinidad is a great welterweight but not a great, Camacho isn't a great and Chavez wasn't at WW and neither were very good at the time, especially Camacho, how good they were at the time is important in calculating a fighters greatness, Whitaker was badly faded and had looked horrible against Hurtado and Quartey had looked horrible against Lopez and hadn't fought in a year and a half, he also didn't beat either of them decisively. Oscar has an excellent WW resume but its just no near to Leonards.

IronDanHamza
03-23-2011, 01:44 PM
Well, every fool knows he beat Trinidad but was denied the win. He beat Whitaker, Camacho, Chavez, Quartey, Carr and Rivera, prime or not the first 3 are great names. Quartey is a borderline great, Carr and Rivera very good. Trinidad is considered a great.

I felt Oscar beat Trinidad but I also felt Whitaker beat Oscar so for me they rule each other out.

I'm sorry but beating Quartey, Chavez, Carr, Camacho and Riviera does not even equal beating Duran, Benitez and Hearns.

Also considering the only fighters who were ranked in the top 5 t WW when Oscar beat them were Quartey and Whitaker.

Other than those 3 outstanding WW wins for Leonard he beat Mayweather and Gant who were both considered top 5 fighters at WW when he beat them.

Contemplating Oscar's WW resume to be better than Leonard's is simply unreasonable.

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 01:46 PM
Trinidad is a great welterweight but not a great, Camacho isn't a great and Chavez wasn't at WW and neither were very good at the time, especially Camacho, how good they were at the time is important in calculating a fighters greatness, Whitaker was badly faded and had looked horrible against Hurtado and Quartey had looked horrible against Lopez and hadn't fought in a year and a half, he also didn't beat either of them decisively. Oscar has an excellent WW resume but its just no near to Leonards.

I'll only bother replying to this post, as we got guys who rate CERVANTES among the greatest WELTERS ever.:rolleyes: Whitaker may have not been what he once was, but he was still a defensive maestro and that doesnt really take being in top shape to keep up. It was his first legitimate loss in the eyes of many, save Whitaker huggers who still claim Whitaker WON.:rofl:

Camacho didnt look good vs Oscar, thats true. BUT that was because Oscar was damn incredible that night, very few welters of that time woulda done any better. I can see Buddy McGirt doing better for instance. Even he was past it then. Quartey didnt look HORRIBLE against Lopez, its just that Lopez was massively underrated and an excellent boxer with power. Quartey looked his best ever against Oscar. Oscar showed what he was made of that night. I dunno for sure, but I doubt Leonard coulda pulled off the same thing he pulled off. Not against iron chinned Quartey who had good stamina as well.

Chavez had grown into a natural ww by then, doesnt matter that he was still able to make 140, he WAS a legit welter. And he looked much better in that fight, hungrier and more aggressive, than in their first fight. Enuff said. Oscar doesn't get the credit he deserves because so many hate on him, its just sad.:nonono:

IMDAZED
03-23-2011, 01:50 PM
De La Hoya?

Are you ok?

He's not even the best welter of his era.

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 01:52 PM
De La Hoya?

Are you ok?

He's not even the best welter of his era.

Then please enlighten me and tell me who is.

SCtrojansbaby
03-23-2011, 02:02 PM
LOL this forum never fails to amaze me Trinidad dominated the division for 6 years and isn't top 10 but some jew from the 30s is because some writer from Ring magazine said so. Either that or we have a bunch of 90 year olds on here

IMDAZED
03-23-2011, 02:03 PM
Then please enlighten me and tell me who is.

Felix Trinidad, without question.

Unified champ

Defended title 15 times at 147

Was champ for six years

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 02:11 PM
I'll only bother replying to this post, as we got guys who rate CERVANTES among the greatest WELTERS ever.:rolleyes:

Okay fair enough some people chuck in the juniors with the original 8, either way a past prime shell of his former overrated self in Chavez doesn't make him better than Leonard.

Whitaker may have not been what he once was, but he was still a defensive maestro and that doesnt really take being in top shape to keep up.

Nobody was disputing his shape, he was in good shape for the fight and he needed to be in good shape to do the things he did, he had a high workrate and did some crazy **** in the ring. I said he had looked bad and was badly faded his reflexes had considerably slowed and he wasn't his best at welter either, not to mention he looked like **** against Hurtado despite the spectacular stoppage.

It was his first legitimate loss in the eyes of many, save Whitaker huggers who still claim Whitaker WON.:rofl:

It wasn't a decisive loss as it was very close and many people including myself thought he won, but then again I'm just a silly Whitaker hugger. I'd find it pretty hard to have Oscar winning 8 clear rounds.

Camacho didnt look good vs Oscar, thats true. BUT that was because Oscar was damn incredible that night, very few welters of that time woulda done any better.

Camacho was done at that point and had been horrible with his weight.

I can see Buddy McGirt doing better for instance. Even he was past it then. Quartey didnt look HORRIBLE against Lopez, its just that Lopez was massively underrated and an excellent boxer with power.

Yup, I agree Lopez is underrated but Ike still looked terrible and was suppose to win that fight without too many problems, I like how you ignored that Ike was inactive for so long.

Quartey looked his best ever against Oscar. Oscar showed what he was made of that night. I dunno for sure, but I doubt Leonard coulda pulled off the same thing he pulled off. Not against iron chinned Quartey who had good stamina as well.

Nope he looked his best ever in his disposing of Phillips in 3, I think your alone in saying Ike was at his very best in that fight, he was pretty damn good though. very good win for Oscar but it was also controversial and he didn't win decisively.

Chavez had grown into a natural ww by then, doesnt matter that he was still able to make 140, he WAS a legit welter. And he looked much better in that fight, hungrier and more aggressive, than in their first fight. Enuff said. Oscar doesn't get the credit he deserves because so many hate on him, its just sad.:nonono:

Chavez wasn't a great win, he was badly faded, whats your reason for not acknowledging Leonards win over Duran, sounds like your a hater to me, especially with your initial rankings and your other dubious heavyweight rankings that we've all had a laugh at.

IronDanHamza
03-23-2011, 02:14 PM
LOL this forum never fails to amaze me Trinidad dominated the division for 6 years and isn't top 10 but some jew from the 30s is because some writer from Ring magazine said so. Either that or we have a bunch of 90 year olds on here

Considering Trinidad was a titlst in 93 and didn't unify until 99 it's abit unfair to say he dominated for 6 years.

However, he is probably the most dominant WW of the 90's.

SCtrojansbaby
03-23-2011, 02:23 PM
Considering Trinidad was a titlst in 93 and didn't unify until 99 it's abit unfair to say he dominated for 6 years.

However, he is probably the most dominant WW of the 90's.

He was 16-0 and stopped everybody in spectacular fashion except guys who are impossible to stop(Whitaker Camacho and DLH)

IronDanHamza
03-23-2011, 02:28 PM
He was 16-0 and stopped everybody in spectacular fashion except guys who are impossible to stop(Whitaker Camacho and DLH)

Yes.

But he still was champion for 5 years without unifying and wasn't considered #1 until he unified.

I'm not disputing he's a great WW, he is an ATG WW. I'm not disputing he's the most dominant WW of the 90's.

But to say he dominated for 6 years is a little brash considering it was the last year of his reign before he unified.

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 02:43 PM
Okay fair enough some people chuck in the juniors with the original 8, either way a past prime shell of his former overrated self in Chavez doesn't make him better than Leonard.



Nobody was disputing his shape, he was in good shape for the fight and he needed to be in good shape to do the things he did, he had a high workrate and did some crazy **** in the ring. I said he had looked bad and was badly faded his reflexes had considerably slowed and he wasn't his best at welter either, not to mention he looked like **** against Hurtado despite the spectacular stoppage.



It wasn't a decisive loss as it was very close and many people including myself thought he won, but then again I'm just a silly Whitaker hugger. I'd find it pretty hard to have Oscar winning 8 clear rounds.



Camacho was done at that point and had been horrible with his weight.



Yup, I agree Lopez is underrated but Ike still looked terrible and was suppose to win that fight without too many problems, I like how you ignored that Ike was inactive for so long.



Nope he looked his best ever in his disposing of Phillips in 3, I think your alone in saying Ike was at his very best in that fight, he was pretty damn good though. very good win for Oscar but it was also controversial and he didn't win decisively.



Chavez wasn't a great win, he was badly faded, whats your reason for not acknowledging Leonards win over Duran, sounds like your a hater to me, especially with your initial rankings and your other dubious heavyweight rankings that we've all had a laugh at.
Au contraire in fact, I've grown more fond of Ray recently. Tis true I didn't like him much before, due to the medias hugging on him universally and overblowing some of his wins. The Duran win was such a win. Leonard chose not to fight like a man, instead he went out dancing and doing stuff he knew Duran couldn't. Thats the same what Floyd does today and has been doing since he turned a ww, mostly. It just isnt fair. Not to mention the farce that the third Duran fight was. Man was so out of shape and overweight, he belonged in the WWF ring, not the boxing one.:nonono:

But I apreciate Ray because of his honesty and generosity, he never talks bs and says he was robbed etc. A great guy and he was at his peak an incredible fighter. A complete package.

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 02:51 PM
Au contraire in fact, I've grown more fond of Ray recently. Tis true I didn't like him much before, due to the medias hugging on him universally and overblowing some of his wins. The Duran win was such a win. Leonard chose not to fight like a man, instead he went out dancing and doing stuff he knew Duran couldn't. Thats the same what Floyd does today and has been doing since he turned a ww, mostly. It just isnt fair. Not to mention the farce that the third Duran fight was. Man was so out of shape and overweight, he belonged in the WWF ring, not the boxing one.:nonono:

But I apreciate Ray because of his honesty and generosity, he never talks bs and says he was robbed etc. A great guy and he was at his peak an incredible fighter. A complete package.

Why did you respond to only that? :lol1: at the bolded, are you deluded how is it not fair, and I haven't seen Floyd dance? what fights are these, yeah the Baldomir fight was boring. So what if he did things Duran couldn't wtf that is a totally retarded excuse he won fair and square and as decisively as you can win a fight.

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 02:54 PM
Why did you respond to only that? :lol1: at the bolded, are you deluded how is it not fair, and I haven't seen Floyd dance? what fights are these, yeah the Baldomir fight was boring. So what if he did things Duran couldn't wtf that is a totally retarded excuse he won fair and square and as decisively as you can win a fight.

No, I thought I had bolded the hating on Leonard part...forget it. Leonard fought like a real fighter and traded with Duran-he lost. Then, instead of trying to beat Duran with the same tactics, he used tricks. That I just don't respect.

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 02:56 PM
No, I thought I had bolded the hating on Leonard part...forget it.

Yeah okay cool, why not respond to anything else?

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 02:57 PM
Yeah okay cool, why not respond to anything else?

I edited my post. Look up.

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 03:01 PM
No, I thought I had bolded the hating on Leonard part...forget it. Leonard fought like a real fighter and traded with Duran-he lost. Then, instead of trying to beat Duran with the same tactics, he used tricks. That I just don't respect.

Well thats just silly, funny you give Oscar credit for beating Trinidad, even though he "ran". Even so you didn't respond to my arguments.

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 03:32 PM
Well thats just silly, funny you give Oscar credit for beating Trinidad, even though he "ran". Even so you didn't respond to my arguments.

NOT THE LEAST. What Oscar did cannot be compared at all to what Leonard did. Oscar moved and boxed, he didn't clown. And totally reduced the fearsome Trinidad to nothing, showing how talented he really was.:boxing: But fools like you can never understand or apreciate that.

You really must hate on white and lightskinned fighters.:rolleyes:

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 03:36 PM
NOT THE LEAST. What Oscar did cannot be compared at all to what Leonard did. Oscar moved and boxed, he didn't clown. And totally reduced the fearsome Trinidad to nothing, showing how talented he really was.:boxing: But fools like you can never understand or apreciate that.

You really must hate on white and lightskinned fighters.:rolleyes:

Okay cool, but you still haven't responded to my post because it ripped your argument to shreds, run a long and make another racist thread and I will get it shut down....again.

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 03:51 PM
Okay cool, but you still haven't responded to my post because it ripped your argument to shreds, run a long and make another racist thread and I will get it shut down....again.

Stop *****ing, *****.:lame: I responded to your POST. You are an extremely biased being and even tho I was polite to you and didn't insult you in any way, you go calling me names. I think we are just about done. No hard feelings but youre a waste of time.

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 03:53 PM
Stop *****ing, *****.:lame: I responded to your POST. You are an extremely biased being and even tho I was polite to you and didn't insult you in any way, you go calling me names. I think we are just about done. No hard feelings but youre a waste of time.

Yes you responded to one part of a very long post, you are just unable to account for the biased **** you spew, your rankings are clearly biased.

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 04:00 PM
Yes you responded to one part of a very long post, you are just unable to account for the biased **** you spew, your rankings are clearly biased.

Ok, now Im gonna break with what I said and ask you to explain that. In WHAT way are they biased, because I put ODLH at nr.6?!? All the rest of the guys on that list are black or half black, if you are hinting at that kind of bias.

Or is it because I didn't put Leonard in the top 5?

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 04:02 PM
Ok, now Im gonna break with what I said and ask you to explain that. In WHAT way are they biased, because I put ODLH at nr.6?!? All the rest of the guys on that list are black or half black, if you are hinting at that kind of bias.

Or is it because I didn't put Leonard in the top 5?

Not at all just who you really like and don't like.

Pastrano
03-23-2011, 04:23 PM
Not at all just who you really like and don't like.

I never said anything about that, did I? I just said I didn't like what SRL did in that No Mas fight.:thinking:

Steak
03-23-2011, 04:25 PM
Leonard didnt just have the Duran, Benitez, and Hearns wins at WW.(even thought those are outstanding on their own). Mayweather, Shields, Muniz, Ranzany, Gant, Price, Green, and Finch were all highly regarded in the division as well. I dont think people realise the body of work that Leonard accomplished pre-title, he started cleaining out the division even before he beat Benitez.

DLH would be difficult to rank. His WW career was full of controversy, the judging in the Whitaker, Quartey, and Trinidad fights have always been questioned. if he had clearly beaten all of them without question and then beaten Mosley, then you could rank him pretty highly at WW. but as it is....I dont know....

anyways, I dont know enough about the older eras of boxing to accurately give a full list myself. I believe I would end up doing an injustice to McLarnin, Corbett, Walker, Ross, etc.

Ziggy Stardust
03-23-2011, 04:26 PM
I'll only bother replying to this post, as we got guys who rate CERVANTES among the greatest WELTERS ever.:rolleyes: Whitaker may have not been what he once was, but he was still a defensive maestro and that doesnt really take being in top shape to keep up. It was his first legitimate loss in the eyes of many, save Whitaker huggers who still claim Whitaker WON.:rofl:

Camacho didnt look good vs Oscar, thats true. BUT that was because Oscar was damn incredible that night, very few welters of that time woulda done any better. I can see Buddy McGirt doing better for instance. Even he was past it then. Quartey didnt look HORRIBLE against Lopez, its just that Lopez was massively underrated and an excellent boxer with power. Quartey looked his best ever against Oscar. Oscar showed what he was made of that night. I dunno for sure, but I doubt Leonard coulda pulled off the same thing he pulled off. Not against iron chinned Quartey who had good stamina as well.

Chavez had grown into a natural ww by then, doesnt matter that he was still able to make 140, he WAS a legit welter. And he looked much better in that fight, hungrier and more aggressive, than in their first fight. Enuff said. Oscar doesn't get the credit he deserves because so many hate on him, its just sad.:nonono:

Real simple: As far as I'm concerned "Junior" and "Super" weight classes are bogus and illegitimate and I don't acknowledge them. Old School 8 weight classes all the way. Don't like like it? Tough sh1t.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
03-23-2011, 04:41 PM
Okay cool, but you still haven't responded to my post because it ripped your argument to shreds, run a long and make another racist thread and I will get it shut down....again.

Let me guess: Pastrano is a Die Antwood alt :rolleyes9:

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 04:50 PM
Let me guess: Pastrano is a Die Antwood alt :rolleyes9:

Dunno don't think so, he had a thread about Cubans all being dirty because of Casa and aparantly Gamboa smirking after using dirty tactics, which I reported and it got promptly shut down. Then he made one asking why black people hate DLH (I wonder why he made that :thinking:), which is still up. I think Die would of babbled on much longer and attempted to argue I'm pretty sure Pastrano isn't an alt, just a fool.

Ziggy Stardust
03-23-2011, 04:52 PM
Dunno don't think so, he had a thread about Cubans all being dirty because of Casa and aparantly Gamboa smirking after using dirty tactics, which I reported and it got promptly shut down. Then he made one asking why black people hate DLH (I wonder why he made that :thinking:), which is still up. I think Die would of babbled on much longer and attempted to argue I'm pretty sure Pastrano isn't an alt, just a fool.

Oh Ok :chuckle9:

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 04:55 PM
Oh Ok :chuckle9:

Die just made a thread in NSB: Calzaghe v Marciano :pat:

Ziggy Stardust
03-23-2011, 05:00 PM
Die just made a thread in NSB: Calzaghe v Marciano :pat:

Kind of pointless since 99.9% of posters in NSB wouldn't know who Marciano was :forgetaboutit9:

Poet

IMDAZED
03-23-2011, 05:11 PM
NOT THE LEAST. What Oscar did cannot be compared at all to what Leonard did. Oscar moved and boxed, he didn't clown. And totally reduced the fearsome Trinidad to nothing, showing how talented he really was.:boxing: But fools like you can never understand or apreciate that.

You really must hate on white and lightskinned fighters.:rolleyes:

What Oscar did was worse.

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 05:17 PM
What Oscar did was worse.

Yup, but he doesn't like Leonard so Duran win doesn't count, it was unfair!

Sugar Sting Ray
03-23-2011, 06:42 PM
Easy list to make:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Wilfredo Benitez
6. Thomas Hearns
7. Harry Greb
8. Mickey Walker
9. Jose Napoles
10. Pernell Whitaker

Steak
03-23-2011, 07:08 PM
Easy list to make:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Wilfredo Benitez
6. Thomas Hearns
7. Harry Greb
8. Mickey Walker
9. Jose Napoles
10. Pernell Whitaker

Benitez is...awfully high on that list. as is Hearns.

perhaps youre going for a 'how good they were' approach, as opposed to who they beat?

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 07:13 PM
Easy list to make:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Wilfredo Benitez
6. Thomas Hearns
7. Harry Greb
8. Mickey Walker
9. Jose Napoles
10. Pernell Whitaker

I know he was a welter at the beginning of his career, as far as I know he didn't have many meaningful fights there.

NChristo
03-23-2011, 07:26 PM
Benitez is...awfully high on that list. as is Hearns.

perhaps youre going for a 'how good they were' approach, as opposed to who they beat?

I'd say Greb is too high as well seeing as he did nothing of note at that weight at all.

Scott9945
03-23-2011, 10:22 PM
What Oscar did was worse.

Yep. Running away in the biggest fight of the year is piss poor. Anyone who has DLH in the top 10 all time welters is absolutely clueless.

Pastrano
03-24-2011, 08:41 AM
Yep. Running away in the biggest fight of the year is piss poor. Anyone who has DLH in the top 10 all time welters is absolutely clueless.

How old are you son? Can't be over 20, right? Judging by your sig and your comments here. You obviously belong to that godforsaken new generation that hugs guys like Pacquiao and Mayweather and remembers Oscar for his last fight, which is SAD. So please, unless you have seen at least 10 of Oscar's fights, refrain from posting your childish opinions about him in future. Thank you.

RubenSonny
03-24-2011, 09:44 AM
...................:pat:

IMDAZED
03-24-2011, 09:50 AM
How old are you son? Can't be over 20, right? Judging by your sig and your comments here. You obviously belong to that godforsaken new generation that hugs guys like Pacquiao and Mayweather and remembers Oscar for his last fight, which is SAD. So please, unless you have seen at least 10 of Oscar's fights, refrain from posting your childish opinions about him in future. Thank you.

You sound like the kid here. Top 10 all-time welter? Oscar? Get real.

NChristo
03-24-2011, 10:00 AM
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Ray Leonard
4. Joe Walcott
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Emile Griffith
7. Jose Napoles
8. Jimmy McClarnin
9. Barney Ross
10. Carmen Basilio

Just a quick list, it's not fixed, could think about it again in an hour and some names would of changed

Honorable mentions: Tommy Ryan, Ted Kid Lewis, Jack Britton, Mickey Walker.

Pastrano
03-24-2011, 01:47 PM
...................:pat:

If thats the best reply you can come up with, go hang yourself.

BigStereotype
03-24-2011, 02:15 PM
If thats the best reply you can come up with, go hang yourself.

The only way that what Oscar did was any different from what Leonard did is that Leonard won. Oscar started off boxing masterfully, but that turned into just shameful ass running. And you know that Scott is one of the most grizzled fight veterans on here, right? He's been watching boxing since the dawn of time bro. Also, that's in pretty poor taste. Just sayin.

RubenSonny
03-24-2011, 02:33 PM
If thats the best reply you can come up with, go hang yourself.

Your an ignorant racist and a dimwit.

Pastrano
03-24-2011, 02:46 PM
Your an ignorant racist and a dimwit.

Same goes for you, as far as Im concerned. You seem to hate East European fighters and most white fighters in general and your hatred of ODLH is also very obvious. Anybody who says Oscar doesn't belong in the ww top 10 is just a hater and/or a moron. SAD stuff.:nonono:

Btw, anyone who puts JIMMY MCLARNIN in the top 10 and NOT Oscar is a moron, that should be clear.

IMDAZED
03-24-2011, 02:50 PM
Same goes for you, as far as Im concerned. You seem to hate East European fighters and most white fighters in general and your hatred of ODLH is also very obvious. Anybody who says Oscar doesn't belong in the ww top 10 is just a hater and/or a moron. SAD stuff.:nonono:

Btw, anyone who puts JIMMY MCLARNIN in the top 10 and NOT Oscar is a moron, that should be clear.

Wow...just wow.

Pastrano
03-24-2011, 02:55 PM
Wow...just wow.

Are you done trying to look cool?:thinking: It just looks silly, same as your avatar.

IronDanHamza
03-24-2011, 03:12 PM
Same goes for you, as far as Im concerned. You seem to hate East European fighters and most white fighters in general and your hatred of ODLH is also very obvious. Anybody who says Oscar doesn't belong in the ww top 10 is just a hater and/or a moron. SAD stuff.:nonono:

Btw, anyone who puts JIMMY MCLARNIN in the top 10 and NOT Oscar is a moron, that should be clear.

The Welterweight division is one of, if not the most pretigious divisons in the history of the sport. And your telling me anyone who doesn't have Oscar top 10 is a moron? Really?

Explain to me how Oscar resume is so much better than Mclarnin's at WW please.

GJC
03-24-2011, 03:45 PM
Same goes for you, as far as Im concerned. You seem to hate East European fighters and most white fighters in general

Is it me or does this nonsense sound very familiar? DLH gets a lot of unwarranted stick in here and deserves a lot of credit for his resume but the WW division is incredibly deep, no shame not making the top ten in it.

IMDAZED
03-24-2011, 03:49 PM
Are you done trying to look cool?:thinking: It just looks silly, same as your avatar.

Please stop your 12th grade crap. If it isn't sending childish pm's it's this. The nerve of you comparing Oscar to McLarnin. What a clown.

Vadrigar.
03-24-2011, 03:56 PM
Ok, I know this is an extremely prestigious division, but can you make a list of guys you think are the 10 best welters of all time? This is based on their achievements in that division, moreso than who was the p4p best fighter.

1. Armstrong
2. SRR
3. Napoles
4. Griffith
5. Rodriguez
6. De La Hoya
7. Gavilan
8. Leonard
9. Hearns
10. Curry

P.S. Only retired fighters count.


:lol1:......

RubenSonny
03-24-2011, 06:10 PM
Same goes for you, as far as Im concerned. You seem to hate East European fighters and most white fighters in general and your hatred of ODLH is also very obvious. Anybody who says Oscar doesn't belong in the ww top 10 is just a hater and/or a moron. SAD stuff.:nonono:

Btw, anyone who puts JIMMY MCLARNIN in the top 10 and NOT Oscar is a moron, that should be clear.

How so? Whats your basis for those claims? You made 2 threads that I reported and they got shut down pretty quickly, one was saying all Cuban fighters were dirty because of Casa and Gamboa :pat: the other was claiming that all black people hate DLH.

:lol1:......

Oh you should've seen the original list Leonard was tied for the ten spot with Trinidad :lol1:

Scott9945
03-24-2011, 07:43 PM
How old are you son? Can't be over 20, right? Judging by your sig and your comments here. You obviously belong to that godforsaken new generation that hugs guys like Pacquiao and Mayweather and remembers Oscar for his last fight, which is SAD. So please, unless you have seen at least 10 of Oscar's fights, refrain from posting your childish opinions about him in future. Thank you.

You have exposed yourself here as a clown and a fanboy. I saw everyone of Oscar's pro fights. And don't ever tell me to "refrain from posting" again. I've forgotten more about boxing that you will ever know boy. Pay attention and maybe you'll learn something. Then again, maybe not...:nonono:

BigStereotype
03-24-2011, 07:52 PM
You have exposed yourself here as a clown and a fanboy. I saw everyone of Oscar's pro fights. And don't ever tell me to "refrain from posting" again. I've forgotten more about boxing that you will ever know boy. Pay attention and maybe you'll learn something. Then again, maybe not...:nonono:

:lol1:

Well I guess that's that.

Barn
03-25-2011, 04:00 AM
You have exposed yourself here as a clown and a fanboy. I saw everyone of Oscar's pro fights. And don't ever tell me to "refrain from posting" again. I've forgotten more about boxing that you will ever know boy. Pay attention and maybe you'll learn something. Then again, maybe not...:nonono:
end threead/ much lol.

IMDAZED
03-25-2011, 10:41 AM
You have exposed yourself here as a clown and a fanboy. I saw everyone of Oscar's pro fights. And don't ever tell me to "refrain from posting" again. I've forgotten more about boxing that you will ever know boy. Pay attention and maybe you'll learn something. Then again, maybe not...:nonono:

Tell 'em, Scott.

bklynboy
03-25-2011, 12:35 PM
Anybody who says Oscar doesn't belong in the ww top 10 is just a hater and/or a moron. SAD stuff.:nonono:



I don't think that I'm a hater or a moron and I don't see ODLH in the TOP 10 at WW. I think a case can be made that ODLH isn't in the TOP 3 of the last 30 years. (SRR, Hearns, Whitaker, Trinidad)

I've never made a list so here goes

1. SRR
2. Hank Armstrong
3. SRL

For ODLH to be in the TOP 10 he has to climb over all the men listed below plus some others that have been ranked very high that I know little about (McLarlin, Ted Lewis among others) and others that I haven't mentioned like Fritzie Zivic

Charley Burley
Carmine Bassilio
Barney Ross
Emile Griffith
Jose Napoles
Kid Gavillan
Joe Walcott
Trinidad
Hearns
Whitacker

You can make a case for ODLH. But reasonable people can have him lower down on the list as well.

CarlosG815
03-25-2011, 12:53 PM
01. Ray Robinson
02. Henry Armstrong
03. Ray Leonard
04. Kid Gavilan
05. Jose Napoles
06. Barney Ross
07. Jimmy McLarnin
08. Thomas Hearns
09. Emile Griffith
10. Antonio Cervantes
11. Wilfred Benitez
12. Oscar De La Hoya
13. Shane Mosley
14. Felix Trinidad
15. Duilio Loi
16. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
17. Tommy Ryan
18. Luis Rodriguez
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Aaron Pryor

Where is Ted Kid Lewis and why are you ranking Aaron Pryor when he never fought at 147 in his prime and during his "actual" career?? Is this because you do not count the jr ww division so you classify him as a WW?

Pastrano
03-25-2011, 01:45 PM
Where is Ted Kid Lewis and why are you ranking Aaron Pryor when he never fought at 147 in his prime and during his "actual" career?? Is this because you do not count the jr ww division so you classify him as a WW?

No, its because he just is a moron, obviously.:rolleyes:

CarlosG815
03-25-2011, 01:48 PM
No, its because he just is a moron, obviously.:rolleyes:

I disagree. Poet knows this sport well that is why I am legitimately shocked that he does not have Ted Kid Lewis on his list.

Ziggy Stardust
03-25-2011, 02:14 PM
Where is Ted Kid Lewis and why are you ranking Aaron Pryor when he never fought at 147 in his prime and during his "actual" career?? Is this because you do not count the jr ww division so you classify him as a WW?

Excactly: I only use old school 8 divisions and count those who fought at Jr Welter as Welters. Ted Kid Lewis I have as among the best of the next batch at Welter. The truth is Welterweight is probably the historically deepest division in the sport and given the number of truly great fighters who fought there it isn't easy to crack the top 20 let alone top 10: There's a LOT of competition for those spots.

Poet

Pastrano
03-25-2011, 04:15 PM
Excactly: I only use old school 8 divisions and count those who fought at Jr Welter as Welters. Ted Kid Lewis I have asamong the best of the next batch at Welter. The truth is Welterweight is probably the historically deepest division in the sport and given the number of truly great fighters who fought there it isn't easy to crack the top 20 let alone top 10: There's a LOT of competition for those spots.

Poet

You put Cervantes and Loi, 2 LWW's in there and not PALOMINO and CUEVAS???:hitit: Youre a lost cause my friend.

Ziggy Stardust
03-25-2011, 04:34 PM
You put Cervantes and Loi, 2 LWW's

Old school 8 divisions so as far as I'm concerned LWW (or JWW or SLW) doesn't exist. Both Cervantes and Loi are ATG fighters by any standard.


in there and not PALOMINO and CUEVAS???:hitit: Youre a lost cause my friend.

Cuevas is NOT an ATG fighter by any standard and the concensus of boxing historians backs me up on that: You won't find Cuevas on the ATG Welter list of ANY reputable boxing historian. Only a hopelessly biased no-nothing like yourself would place him there. Palomino is a borderline case that there's no real consensus on.

Poet

jrosales13
03-25-2011, 05:19 PM
Oscar De la Hoya?

:lol1:

bklynboy
03-25-2011, 06:23 PM
[QUOTE=poet682006;10284525]Old school 8 divisions so as far as I'm concerned LWW (or JWW or SLW) doesn't exist. Both Cervantes and Loi are ATG fighters by any standard.


I agree with you regarding the original 8. I have to admit I like the addition of the cruiserweight division but I hate - absolutely hate - the super welterweight and super middleweight divisions above all others.

In judging ATGs I can't see judging fighters in 17 different weight categories - all though the fact that many fighters stay a large percent of their career in the bogus subdivisions makes things more difficult.

Pastrano
03-26-2011, 11:11 AM
Old school 8 divisions so as far as I'm concerned LWW (or JWW or SLW) doesn't exist. Both Cervantes and Loi are ATG fighters by any standard.




Cuevas is NOT an ATG fighter by any standard and the concensus of boxing historians backs me up on that: You won't find Cuevas on the ATG Welter list of ANY reputable boxing historian. Only a hopelessly biased no-nothing like yourself would place him there. Palomino is a borderline case that there's no real consensus on.

Poet

Cuevas made 11 title defenses you moron, which is only bested by 2 men, Armstrong, 20? and Trinidad, 15.

IronDanHamza
03-26-2011, 11:28 AM
Cuevas made 11 title defenses you moron, which is only bested by 2 men, Armstrong, 20? and Trinidad, 15.

Cuevas was a titlst but was never considered the Lineal Champion at 147.

He has 11 title defences which is no easy feat and he beat some solid fighters. Cuevas is a very good WW, but ATG WW? Not really.

His best wins are Angel Espada, Clyde Gray, Harold Western, Pete Ranzay and Randy Shields and a few other contenders on the way.

Like I said, good WW title reign no doubt. But ATG WW? Can't see it personally.

The_Demon
03-26-2011, 12:04 PM
Im sorry TS,but you have really shown yourself too be an overly biased nuthugger here,when it comes too DLH that is

A few people disagreed with you and you tell them they know nothing about boxing and should stop posting immediately,thats all well and good,but i suggest you listen too some of the more knowledgable guys on the forum rather than just saying that,as they might help broaden your knowledge of the sport

CarlosG815
03-26-2011, 01:10 PM
Im sorry TS,but you have really shown yourself too be an overly biased nuthugger here,when it comes too DLH that is

A few people disagreed with you and you tell them they know nothing about boxing and should stop posting immediately,thats all well and good,but i suggest you listen too some of the more knowledgable guys on the forum rather than just saying that,as they might help broaden your knowledge of the sport

I believe Oscar is a top 10 welterweight as well. Oscar was brilliant, and phenomenal to watch. He easily outboxed Tito Trinidad and really made him look amateur. His boxing skills were amazing and he has one of the top resumes Even though he had bogus decisions against him vs Trinidad and Mosley, nobody can deny that his resume is stacked and there aren't many fighters who can come close to fighting the level of competition that he did - despite him getting L's (undeservedly so even).

crold1
03-26-2011, 01:54 PM
Oscar De la Hoya?

:lol1:

Oscar shouldn't sniff the top 25 at Welter. The most impressive he ever was at the weight was the last round of Quartey (after he froze on the end of a jab for the previous five rounds, a decision he should have lost) and the first Mosley loss where he began cementing his big fight penchant for blowing leads. Pernell Whitaker made a fool out of him and got jobbed. He ran like hell from Trinidad after getting clipped with a shot in the 9th and then threw Gil Clancy under the bus.

His resume at Welter is being the A-side in big fights where he wasn't good enough and beating not a whole hell of a lot outside that.

The_Demon
03-26-2011, 02:17 PM
I believe Oscar is a top 10 welterweight as well. Oscar was brilliant, and phenomenal to watch. He easily outboxed Tito Trinidad and really made him look amateur. His boxing skills were amazing and he has one of the top resumes Even though he had bogus decisions against him vs Trinidad and Mosley, nobody can deny that his resume is stacked and there aren't many fighters who can come close to fighting the level of competition that he did - despite him getting L's (undeservedly so even).

I never said anything about Oscar not being a great fighter,was simply making a point too TS and the way he is conducting himself in this thread

Scott9945
03-26-2011, 10:03 PM
Oscar shouldn't sniff the top 25 at Welter. The most impressive he ever was at the weight was the last round of Quartey (after he froze on the end of a jab for the previous five rounds, a decision he should have lost) and the first Mosley loss where he began cementing his big fight penchant for blowing leads. Pernell Whitaker made a fool out of him and got jobbed. He ran like hell from Trinidad after getting clipped with a shot in the 9th and then threw Gil Clancy under the bus.

His resume at Welter is being the A-side in big fights where he wasn't good enough and beating not a whole hell of a lot outside that.

I was going to post something, but it wouldn't be better than this^^^^

Oscar De La Hoya may be the most overrated fighter in my lifetime. His late round retreat from Trinidad was a disgrace. If Wladimir Klitschko ever pulled a stunt like that we'd be hearing about it forever. But Teflon Oscar got a pass for stinking out the biggest fight of the year. :nonono:

- v e t -
03-26-2011, 10:04 PM
Actually, on second thought youre right. Leonard did beat Benitez and Hearns. His second fight with Duran I dont count a win tho. DLH beats Leonard imo. He also beat more great fighters, oficially or not, at 147. And made more defenses.

now i understand still thinking one fighter is better than the other after a fight


BUT you have to honor the wins and losses as they stand.... nothing changes them

Scott9945
03-26-2011, 10:12 PM
now i understand still thinking one fighter is better than the other after a fight


BUT you have to honor the wins and losses as they stand.... nothing changes them


I can understand dismissing an obviously terrible decision, but Duran just quit in a fight that wasn't going his way.

Pastrano
03-27-2011, 09:41 AM
I believe Oscar is a top 10 welterweight as well. Oscar was brilliant, and phenomenal to watch. He easily outboxed Tito Trinidad and really made him look amateur. His boxing skills were amazing and he has one of the top resumes Even though he had bogus decisions against him vs Trinidad and Mosley, nobody can deny that his resume is stacked and there aren't many fighters who can come close to fighting the level of competition that he did - despite him getting L's (undeservedly so even).

:notworthy Thank you, finally somebody else speaks some reason here. People hug Tito way too much while they hate on Oscar because he was so popular and got all the chicks, still does. Such people are really losers. They forget how Oscar PLAYED with Tito for 9 rounds, something nobody ever did, not even Hopkins who is a bigger and stronger man. They forget how Oscar totally annihilated very hyped and promising fighters like Rafael Ruelas, Jesse James Leija, beat John John Molina, Genaro Hernandez and Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

crold1
03-27-2011, 10:19 AM
They forget how Oscar PLAYED with Tito for 9 rounds

Total myth perpetrated by TV over the years. Oscar's best work was in sweeping rounds 5-8 (though even Lederman gave him 5 I believe...I disagreed). The first four were relatively close with little happening in many of them in terms of sustained action or clean punches. Trinidad stalked; Oscar hit a lot of air and elbows. The 9th is a huge swing round. Oscar wins the first minute or so, gets clipped with a right, goes bug eyed, and starts his marathon routine. His corner tells him to BOX...never to flee. That was ALL Oscar.

Tito didn't really win as much as deserve the decision or a draw with a point at most to spare.

NChristo
03-27-2011, 10:22 AM
They forget how Oscar totally annihilated very hyped and promising fighters like Rafael Ruelas, Jesse James Leija, beat John John Molina, Genaro Hernandez and Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

None of these 'promising fighters' fought Oscar at Welter though, what have they got to do with ranking him there ?. :thinking:

RubenSonny
03-27-2011, 10:25 AM
:notworthy Thank you, finally somebody else speaks some reason here. People hug Tito way too much while they hate on Oscar because he was so popular and got all the chicks, still does. Such people are really losers. They forget how Oscar PLAYED with Tito for 9 rounds, something nobody ever did, not even Hopkins who is a bigger and stronger man. They forget how Oscar totally annihilated very hyped and promising fighters like Rafael Ruelas, Jesse James Leija, beat John John Molina, Genaro Hernandez and Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

Only one of those fights took place at (junior) welter, so I don't see how they are relevant, Oscars got some good wins no doubt, and he looked spectacular at lightweight, nobodies denying that but thats not whats being debated.

IronDanHamza
03-27-2011, 10:27 AM
:notworthy Thank you, finally somebody else speaks some reason here. People hug Tito way too much while they hate on Oscar because he was so popular and got all the chicks, still does. Such people are really losers. They forget how Oscar PLAYED with Tito for 9 rounds, something nobody ever did, not even Hopkins who is a bigger and stronger man. They forget how Oscar totally annihilated very hyped and promising fighters like Rafael Ruelas, Jesse James Leija, beat John John Molina, Genaro Hernandez and Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

But were talking about Welterweight, no?

That's why no one has mentioned those names.

IronDanHamza
03-27-2011, 10:29 AM
Good lord.

I leave a post and before I have time to post it it's alreadu neem addresse by multiple people. :lol1:

Pastrano
03-27-2011, 10:45 AM
I was talking about him as A FIGHTER overall, not just at 147. But he was one of THE best ww's of the 90's, one of the top 5, with Whitaker, McGirt, Quartey and Trinidad. People overrate Whitaker as a ww imo, he was MUCH better as a lw. He got two lucky wins over Rivera, who Oscar totally outclassed and stopped. First McGirt fight was controversial too, I scored that 115-114 for Buddy, the most I could give it for Whitaker is a draw. And lets not mention the Hurtado fight, shall we? The guy got to reign longer than he should have.

RubenSonny
03-27-2011, 10:49 AM
I was talking about him as A FIGHTER overall, not just at 147. But he was one of THE best ww's of the 90's, one of the top 5, with Whitaker, McGirt, Quartey and Trinidad. People overrate Whitaker as a ww imo, he was MUCH better as a lw. He got two lucky wins over Rivera, who Oscar totally outclassed and stopped. First McGirt fight was controversial too, I scored that 115-114 for Buddy, the most I could give it for Whitaker is a draw. And lets not mention the Hurtado fight, shall we? The guy got to reign longer than he should have.

You **** on Whitaker yet claim it as a great win for Oscar...smh, was Whitaker such a terrible welterweight that Oscar couldn't decisively beat a a faded version of him (a fight I felt Pea won).

RubenSonny
03-27-2011, 10:53 AM
Good lord.

I leave a post and before I have time to post it it's alreadu neem addresse by multiple people. :lol1:

:lol1: I hate it when that happens.

Scott9945
03-27-2011, 10:55 AM
I was talking about him as A FIGHTER overall, not just at 147. But he was one of THE best ww's of the 90's, one of the top 5, with Whitaker, McGirt, Quartey and Trinidad. People overrate Whitaker as a ww imo, he was MUCH better as a lw. He got two lucky wins over Rivera, who Oscar totally outclassed and stopped. First McGirt fight was controversial too, I scored that 115-114 for Buddy, the most I could give it for Whitaker is a draw. And lets not mention the Hurtado fight, shall we? The guy got to reign longer than he should have.

So basically what you are saying is that Oscar barely beat a washed up undersized welterweight champion in Whitaker. You're not wrong, but that hardly adds to the case for Oscar as a top 10 welter.

Pastrano
03-27-2011, 11:07 AM
So basically what you are saying is that Oscar barely beat a washed up undersized welterweight champion in Whitaker. You're not wrong, but that hardly adds to the case for Oscar as a top 10 welter.

Oscar beat Quartey and Trinidad (at least unofficially), that alone is enough to put him among the greatest welters of his era. THE greatest.

RubenSonny
03-27-2011, 11:31 AM
Oscar beat Quartey and Trinidad (at least unofficially), that alone is enough to put him among the greatest welters of his era. THE greatest.

Well okay thats good fand all but that doesn't put him in the top 10 and its a joke that you have him next to and above Gavilan.

Scott9945
03-27-2011, 11:41 AM
Oscar beat Quartey and Trinidad (at least unofficially), that alone is enough to put him among the greatest welters of his era. THE greatest.

Quartey was coming off a very long layoff and never won a big fight again. Against Trinidad he ran like a dog to avoid being KO'd so he shouldn't get too much credit for that. Nobody DLH fought belongs on an all time top 10 welterweight list. But since you specified his era, sure, Oscar was among the best welters of the 1990's.

IMDAZED
03-27-2011, 12:43 PM
Quartey was coming off a very long layoff and never won a big fight again. Against Trinidad he ran like a dog to avoid being KO'd so he shouldn't get too much credit for that. Nobody DLH fought belongs on an all time top 10 welterweight list. But since you specified his era, sure, Oscar was among the best welters of the 1990's.

Well said. I think a Quartey fight, perhaps a few months earlier as originally scheduled, could've made it a decisive victory for Bazooka. The trigger was slower than it should've been and the ring rust was the reason why.

Ditto on the Tito bout. The controversial decision was, in my eyes, justice. You can talk to me death about how Oscar should've won on points, but I'm not hearing it. It was by no means a blowout. In fact, it was a very close fight that could've gone either way, as evidenced by everyone's card which had it a one or two point swing in either direction. Oscar didn't deserve to win that fight, not with his actions in the ring.

IronDanHamza
03-27-2011, 12:56 PM
Well said. I think a Quartey fight, perhaps a few months earlier as originally scheduled, could've made it a decisive victory for Bazooka. The trigger was slower than it should've been and the ring rust was the reason why.

Ditto on the Tito bout. The controversial decision was, in my eyes, justice. You can talk to me death about how Oscar should've won on points, but I'm not hearing it. It was by no means a blowout. In fact, it was a very close fight that could've gone either way, as evidenced by everyone's card which had it a one or two point swing in either direction. Oscar didn't deserve to win that fight, not with his actions in the ring.

I felt Oscar won. But as you do, I saw it as justice. IMO it justified his gift over Whitaker and deservedly so as literally he ran for his life.

Pastrano
03-27-2011, 01:08 PM
I felt Oscar won. But as you do, I saw it as justice. IMO it justified his gift over Whitaker and deservedly do as literally he ran for his life.

Will you NUMBNUTS stop referring to the victory over Whitaker as a GIFT!:pat:

RubenSonny
03-27-2011, 01:10 PM
Will you NUMBNUTS stop referring to the victory over Whitaker as a GIFT!:pat:

What did you score the fight?

BigStereotype
03-27-2011, 01:12 PM
Will you NUMBNUTS stop referring to the victory over Whitaker as a GIFT!:pat:

Uh, why? Pernell made Oscar look stupid and those scorecards showed that only one guy was going to win it. It was a close, competitive fight, but those scorecards made it a gift.

RubenSonny
03-27-2011, 01:14 PM
Uh, why? Pernell made Oscar look stupid and those scorecards showed that only one guy was going to win it. It was a close, competitive fight, but those scorecards made it a gift.

I'm not sure he knows what a 'gift' is...

BigStereotype
03-27-2011, 01:18 PM
I'm not sure he knows what a 'gift' is...

I'm not sure he knows very much about anything. Or am I a racist, too?

IronDanHamza
03-27-2011, 01:19 PM
Will you NUMBNUTS stop referring to the victory over Whitaker as a GIFT!:pat:

Are you disputing it wasn't a fight that could have gone either way? Like BigStereotype just greatly put it, the gift was the fact the scorecards showed Whitaker couldn't win the fight that night.

I felt Whitaker won, that's my opinion, one that is clearly one that's open for debate.

Then again it's hard to take your comments seriously considering you think Oscar should be ranked higher at WW than Ray Leonard. Among some other strange comments.

crold1
03-27-2011, 01:25 PM
Are you disputing it wasn't a fight that could have gone either way? Like BigStereotype just greatly put it, the gift was the fact the scorecards showed Whitaker couldn't win the fight that night.

I felt Whitaker won, that's my opinion, one that is clearly one that's open for debate.

Then again it's hard to take your comments seriously considering you think Oscar should be ranked higher at WW than Ray Leonard. Among some other strange comments.

When there were judges who wouldn't give Pea the 11th, you knew it just wasn't his night before the sun went down.

RubenSonny
03-27-2011, 01:28 PM
When there were judges who wouldn't give Pea the 11th, you knew it just wasn't his night before the sun went down.

Don't forget the knockdown when Oscar tried to go southpaw, I forget which round though.

crold1
03-27-2011, 01:32 PM
Don't forget the knockdown when Oscar tried to go southpaw, I forget which round though.

Nine, but Pea got the round on all three. That knockdown was mierde...just a tap on an off balance guy. That fight was significant, scoring wise, because it was a catalyst for the WBC not being able to use their stupid ass point deduction for an accidental cut rule anymore. Pea lost a point for a chicken scratch which made the scoring look even worse than it was.

Pastrano
03-27-2011, 01:37 PM
Are you disputing it wasn't a fight that could have gone either way? Like BigStereotype just greatly put it, the gift was the fact the scorecards showed Whitaker couldn't win the fight that night.

I felt Whitaker won, that's my opinion, one that is clearly one that's open for debate.

Then again it's hard to take your comments seriously considering you think Oscar should be ranked higher at WW than Ray Leonard. Among some other strange comments.

Yes, I AM disputing it, coz thats nonsense. Oscar won 115-112. Woulda been 116-112 without the false knockdown, but it was counted as a knockdown. Oscar was just in a bad position and got thumped.

RubenSonny
03-27-2011, 01:39 PM
Nine, but Pea got the round on all three. That knockdown was mierde...just a tap on an off balance guy. That fight was significant, scoring wise, because it was a catalyst for the WBC not being able to use their stupid ass point deduction for an accidental cut rule anymore. Pea lost a point for a chicken scratch which made the scoring look even worse than it was.

I did not know about that, thats pretty ridiculous, good stuff Cliff :fing02:

I mentioned the knockdown because it was credited, in an argument for the fight being in favor of Pea and it not being a clear win for Oscar as that poster has made it out to be, I maintain that Pea won.

crold1
03-27-2011, 01:46 PM
I did not know about that rule, thats pretty ridiculous, good stuff Cliff :fing02:

I mentioned the knockdown because it was credited, in an argument for the fight being in favor of Pea and it not being clear as that poster has made it out to be, I maintain that Pea won.

I should clarify...I meant they can't use it in the U.S. (I think that's universal in the States...this is off the top of my head so I'd have to look it up) That hot garbage (and, really, almost all things WBC are) is still used internationally.

I also thought Pea won and by a good margin. In his fights that counted, I think Oscar may have eeked by Quartey by a point; have scored that one both ways but on first view thought it was Ike which is all that counts. Had Tito beating Oscar by a point and that score has never changed for me. Had Mosley winning 9-3 in their fight at Welter. OScar deserve props for fighting everyone he should have. However, in his prime, at his prime weight (Welter), he proved to be a limited fighter and fell short of genuine greatness. He still goes to the Hall.

I've pretty much said all this before:

http://www.boxingscene.com/measured-against-all-time-oscar-de-la-hoya--17277

:)

On Pea:

The only two fights Pea outright, no doubt, lost in his career were the last two, and Tito actually was a nice polish to the career as it answered some question that some still had about how tough Pea was.

RubenSonny
03-27-2011, 01:59 PM
I should clarify...I meant they can't use it in the U.S. (I think that's universal in the States...this is off the top of my head so I'd have to look it up) That hot garbage (and, really, almost all things WBC are) is still used internationally.

I also thought Pea won and by a good margin. In his fights that counted, I think Oscar may have eeked by Quartey by a point; have scored that one both ways but on first view thought it was Ike which is all that counts. Had Tito beating Oscar by a point and that score has never changed for me. Had Mosley winning 9-3 in their fight at Welter. OScar deserve props for fighting everyone he should have. However, in his prime, at his prime weight (Welter), he proved to be a limited fighter and fell short of genuine greatness. He still goes to the Hall.

I've pretty much said all this before:

http://www.boxingscene.com/measured-against-all-time-oscar-de-la-hoya--17277

:)

On Pea:

The only two fights Pea outright, no doubt, lost in his career were the last two, and Tito actually was a nice polish to the career as it answered some question that some still had about how tough Pea was.

I thought Trinidad fight was a draw, I had Quartey up by about 3 points but I haven't seen it in a long time, I had the Whitaker fight 115-111 and Mosley clearly won the Oscar fight which was very entertaining, the second one I thought Oscar won but I wasn't as outraged by the decision as some.

Peas career is generally one of the most underrated great great careers I can think of, though certainly not in this section (apart from the odd few). If I had a list and I'm working on one, I think I'd have him above Leonard.

IronDanHamza
03-27-2011, 02:00 PM
Yes, I AM disputing it, coz thats nonsense. Oscar won 115-112. Woulda been 116-112 without the false knockdown, but it was counted as a knockdown. Oscar was just in a bad position and got thumped.

Well there you have it.

Not much more to be said really.

crold1
03-27-2011, 02:08 PM
I thought Trinidad fight was a draw, I had Quartey up by about 3 points but I haven't seen it in a long time, I had the Whitaker fight 115-111 and Mosley clearly won the Oscar fight which was very entertaining, the second one I thought Oscar won but I wasn't as outraged by the decision as some.

Peas career is generally one of the most underrated great great careers I can think of, though certainly not in this section (apart from the odd few). If I had a list and I'm working on one, I think I'd have him above Leonard.

I can't put him above Leonard. Almost the same number of fights but Leonard has the four best wins of any fighter in the last? Seriously, I'm not sure anyone since Greb can claim four scalps as great as Benitez-Duran-Hearns-Hagler. Others have greater depth of quality, and far more fights, but Pea isn't really one of them.

RubenSonny
03-27-2011, 02:18 PM
I can't put him above Leonard. Almost the same number of fights but Leonard has the four best wins of any fighter in the last? Seriously, I'm not sure anyone since Greb can claim four scalps as great as Benitez-Duran-Hearns-Hagler. Others have greater depth of quality, and far more fights, but Pea isn't really one of them.

Chavez, De La Hoya, Nelson, Vazquez, are Peas big wins which aren't as great as Leonard but I love the rest of Peas resume and for its sick quality and his consistency, I felt, like you, that he was undefeated until Trinidad. I don't think theres a huge amount of difference in their resumes and they are actually pretty similar, some of it is probably down to my bias in who I thought deserfed decisions as I'm a much greater fan of Pea (and Hagler for that fact) than Ray, I didn't personally think he deserved the nod over Hagler (though even if he had officially lost I'd still count it as a big + to his resume).

Pastrano
03-28-2011, 10:17 AM
I should clarify...I meant they can't use it in the U.S. (I think that's universal in the States...this is off the top of my head so I'd have to look it up) That hot garbage (and, really, almost all things WBC are) is still used internationally.

I also thought Pea won and by a good margin. In his fights that counted, I think Oscar may have eeked by Quartey by a point; have scored that one both ways but on first view thought it was Ike which is all that counts. Had Tito beating Oscar by a point and that score has never changed for me. Had Mosley winning 9-3 in their fight at Welter. OScar deserve props for fighting everyone he should have. However, in his prime, at his prime weight (Welter), he proved to be a limited fighter and fell short of genuine greatness. He still goes to the Hall.

I've pretty much said all this before:

http://www.boxingscene.com/measured-against-all-time-oscar-de-la-hoya--17277

:)

On Pea:

The only two fights Pea outright, no doubt, lost in his career were the last two, and Tito actually was a nice polish to the career as it answered some question that some still had about how tough Pea was.
:rofl: I seriously suggest you should stop watching boxing. :hitit:

RubenSonny
03-28-2011, 10:48 AM
:rofl: I seriously suggest you should stop watching boxing. :hitit:

Hes a well-respected boxing writer.

NChristo
03-28-2011, 12:37 PM
Hes a well-respected boxing writer.

The best writer from Boxingscene by far imo.

Pastrano
03-28-2011, 12:38 PM
Hes a well-respected boxing writer.

Respected by WHO?? Bunch of other morons I bet.:smashfrea:nono: Please, boxing writers tend to be the most biased fools in the world. They hug some fighters while they shred others.

RubenSonny
03-28-2011, 12:43 PM
The best writer from Boxingscene by far imo.

Not a fan of Ronnie? :rofl: I agree, I like his stuff a lot, can't say that for most writers around, guys like Doug Fischer and the rest of the ring are absolute jokes.

Respected by WHO?? Bunch of other morons I bet.:smashfrea:nono: Please, boxing writers tend to be the most biased fools in the world. They hug some fighters while they shred others.

Pretty much everyone disagrees with you, that should tell you something.

The_Demon
03-28-2011, 12:47 PM
:rofl: I seriously suggest you should stop watching boxing. :hitit:

The guy knows a hell of a lot more about boxing than you do,and isnt biased like you either

BigStereotype
03-28-2011, 12:47 PM
Respected by WHO?? Bunch of other morons I bet.:smashfrea:nono: Please, boxing writers tend to be the most biased fools in the world. They hug some fighters while they shred others.

I'll give you one thing, paesan, you're dedicated to proving your point, even if everybody and the facts disagree. So that's one thing going for you. And at this point, I would take anything I could get if I were you. Do you actually think that we're ALL just obsessed with making Oscar look bad and that we've banded together in some forum-wide conspiracy to disagree with you?

crold1
03-28-2011, 06:08 PM
I'm not convinced you have said anything serious yet.:rofl: I seriously suggest you should stop watching boxing. :hitit:

Scott9945
03-28-2011, 08:51 PM
I'll give you one thing, paesan, you're dedicated to proving your point, even if everybody and the facts disagree. So that's one thing going for you. And at this point, I would take anything I could get if I were you. Do you actually think that we're ALL just obsessed with making Oscar look bad and that we've banded together in some forum-wide conspiracy to disagree with you?

I admire the tact that you used saying that. :lol1:

McGrain
03-29-2011, 04:09 PM
01 - Sugar Ray Robinson
02 - Sugar Ray Leonard
03 - Jack Britton
04 - Kid Gavilan
05 - Henry Armostrong
06 - Emile Griffith
07 - Jose Napoles
08 - Charley Burley
09 - Mickey Walker
10 - Joe Walcott

McGrain
03-29-2011, 04:37 PM
01. Ray Robinson
02. Henry Armstrong
03. Ray Leonard
04. Kid Gavilan
05. Jose Napoles
06. Barney Ross
07. Jimmy McLarnin
08. Thomas Hearns
09. Emile Griffith
10. Antonio Cervantes
11. Wilfred Benitez
12. Oscar De La Hoya
13. Shane Mosley
14. Felix Trinidad
15. Duilio Loi
16. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
17. Tommy Ryan
18. Luis Rodriguez
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Aaron Pryor

Britton not making a lot of these lists. Not picking on you Poet, it's just that yours is a 20 and so it kind of sticks out even more. Very quick look -

Britton won 150+ fights at WW (being conservative). Some people have Duran on their list. How many fights did he win at WW? There is some canon fodder in there of course, but his top line wins include Dave Shade, Benny Leonard, Mickey Walker, Lou Bogash (controversial), Mike O'Dowd, a young Jock Malone and of course his domination of the epic series with Kid Lewis, Ted might scrape his way onto this list.

Now, compare that list of achievments with those of WW Hearns, who is a dead lock for most top 10s.