View Full Version : Who would win between Julio Cesar Chavez vs Roberto Duran


GF of Boxing
03-17-2011, 09:50 AM
Its a shame these two never met. At lightweight who would of win and how? Fight of the year canidate.

Barnburner
03-17-2011, 12:03 PM
Roberto Duran wide UD. I wouldn't go as far to say "exposes" but, this would be a loss of huge proportions for the Mexican.

joseph5620
03-17-2011, 05:47 PM
Its a shame these two never met. At lightweight who would of win and how? Fight of the year canidate.

Duran by UD. I don't see this going any other way.

SBleeder
03-17-2011, 07:52 PM
Duran by UD. I don't see this going any other way.

I can: Duran by mid-late to late round KO.

Ziggy Stardust
03-17-2011, 08:09 PM
Now watch the Chavez huggers and Duran haters flock to this thread :rolleyes9:

Poet

IronDanHamza
03-17-2011, 08:27 PM
135?

I actually see Duran taking him out.

Wild Blue Yonda
03-17-2011, 09:08 PM
Duran would fight Chavez's fight & that would draw out proceedings, & make things more competitive than they needed to be, but eventually the fact that Duran did damn near everything better than Chavez comes to the fore. Duran by a 9-6 type decision. Chavez was a beast at LW, & he would welcome this challenge, but Duran was just his superior everywhere (except maybe heart).

New England
03-17-2011, 10:17 PM
duran could do a bit more
could do a lot of what chavez could do but could do a better job of it


he's also the quicker man to the punch in my eyes.


duran on activity

not as cut and dry as lots are making it out to be in my eyes


chavez certainly wouldn't complain about the fight duran often fought

RubenSonny
03-18-2011, 03:22 AM
Roberto Duran wide UD. I wouldn't go as far to say "exposes" but, this would be a loss of huge proportions for the Mexican.

I agree, it ends up a draw :biggthump

House of Stone
03-18-2011, 03:52 AM
Duran by late round TKO or possibly UD - no way does chavez beat him

Barnburner
03-18-2011, 04:22 AM
I agree, it ends up a draw :biggthump
lmfao it's a possibilty.

BennyST
03-18-2011, 10:35 AM
Do people really think Chavez gets knocked out? A prime, lightweight Chavez? Knocked out or stopped? Come on people....go back and watch him fight again. He was a genuine great...a genuine ATG. No one is stopping him at lightweight, not Duran, not Gans, not Leonard. No one. He gives anyone in history a fight at lightweight.

We're not talking of the past it, slow version that Whitaker made look like a fool at 147 and who lost and got dropped a couple of fights later. We're talking the prime version at 135. It's like the difference between Duran at 135 and 154. Not the same guy.

bklynboy
03-18-2011, 12:52 PM
Do people really think Chavez gets knocked out? A prime, lightweight Chavez? Knocked out or stopped?

I think that Duran would probably win 9 out of 10 fights btwn them (if not 10 out of 10) and I think that Chavez would hear the final bell. But it's not crazy to think that Duran would KO Chavez. I think that Chavez would realize his only chance was a brawl and open up - especially if he got hurt. If that happens, opens up and starts taking a lot of leather Chavez would go down. (And, in case it matters, I was a big Chavez fan).

Duran had real KO power from the first round to the 15th. I don't know what his KO percentage was as a lightweight champion but it was pretty high.

I just went to boxrec and did a quick look at all his lightweight fights from Ken Buchanan on: Roberto Duran was 34-1 with 28 KOs.

Ziggy Stardust
03-18-2011, 01:04 PM
If Meldrick Taylor had had more punching power than your typical 12 year old girl Chavez very likely would have been stopped in their first fight. Chavez shipped a LOT of leather in that fight as he did in most of his fights against top opponents. The difference here being Duran at Lightweight is a hell of lot better than any of Chavez top opponents. Chavez's chin may well keep him from hearing 10 counted over him but it won't keep him from taking a terrible beating and having his plug pulled for his own good.

Poet

SCtrojansbaby
03-18-2011, 02:10 PM
LOL at you people down playing Chavez who has one of boxing's all time great resumes. His top 6 wins(Martinez Rosario Taylor Camacho Randall and Ramirez all of them in there absolute prime) are better then any fighter of the last 50 years not named Ali.

JAB5239
03-18-2011, 04:05 PM
LOL at you people down playing Chavez who has one of boxing's all time great resumes. His top 6 wins(Martinez Rosario Taylor Camacho Randall and Ramirez all of them in there absolute prime) are better then any fighter of the last 50 years not named Ali.

Im sorry, Ray Leonard anyone?

And neither Ramirez, Randall or Camacho were at their best and peak fighters anymore. Not trying to bash Chavez, who was great, but lets not blow him up and exaggerate either.

joseph5620
03-18-2011, 04:15 PM
Im sorry, Ray Leonard anyone?

And neither Ramirez, Randall or Camacho were at their best and peak fighters anymore. Not trying to bash Chavez, who was great, but lets not blow him up and exaggerate either.






You beat me to that. I have no problem saying Duran's resume is better than Chavez because it is.

bklynboy
03-18-2011, 05:23 PM
LOL at you people down playing Chavez who has one of boxing's all time great resumes. His top 6 wins(Martinez Rosario Taylor Camacho Randall and Ramirez all of them in there absolute prime) are better then any fighter of the last 50 years not named Ali.

I don't think anyone is down playing Chavez - he's an ATG. I just think that Duran was better. I think they were equal in heart and determination. Both had great chins and endurance. But Duran was better.

Steak
03-18-2011, 05:36 PM
no possible way does Duran take out Chavez at 135lbs. Duran wasnt a destroyer at that weight...almost all his best KO wins were due to attrition. Chavez was not only one of the most durable fighters ever, but also had very good defense.

that being said, Duran would win on points that would be wide on the scorecards, but each round would be hard fought. Think Duran-Palomino, except more competitive. The infighting level would be about equal, but Duran would take the upper hand seeing as he could tag Chavez coming in and also counter a bit on the inside as well. Duran was a mauler on the inside, he didnt constantly attack you but would grab a little and simply wear you down.

It would be the best display of skilled infighting in the history of boxing.

Wild Blue Yonda
03-18-2011, 11:01 PM
It would indeed be exceptional on the inside, but Chavez's speed deficit there would be his undoing.

SCtrojansbaby
03-19-2011, 12:36 AM
Im sorry, Ray Leonard anyone?

And neither Ramirez, Randall or Camacho were at their best and peak fighters anymore. Not trying to bash Chavez, who was great, but lets not blow him up and exaggerate either.


You don't know what you're talking about they were all in their peak when Chavez beat them

Randall was 33 but had his 2 biggest wins of his career before and after Chavez beat him

Ramirez was 29 and was coming off his most significant win.

Camacho was undefeated(I though he beat soundly Haugen both times)

As for Leonard he has 4 great wins but after that his resume is extremely thin. And I would say none of Leonards 4 big wins were as dominant as Chavez vs Camacho

Steak
03-19-2011, 12:57 AM
You don't know what you're talking about they were all there peak when Chavez beat them

As for Leonard he has 4 great wins but after that his resume is extremely thin. And I would say none of Leonards 4 big wins were as dominant as Chavez vs Camacho

oh come on. even without his 4 great wins Leonard still had an amazing record. Price, Ranzany, Mayweather, Shields, Muniz, Gant, Green, Finch, Kalulue, Lalonde...all very good wins, especially those last two.
Im sorry, Ray Leonard anyone?

And neither Ramirez, Randall or Camacho were at their best and peak fighters anymore. Not trying to bash Chavez, who was great, but lets not blow him up and exaggerate either.


Randall was most definitely prime against Chavez. he fought like a man possessed in those fights, and showed he wasnt a one and done fighter with his excellent outings against Coggi.

Ramirez wasnt dead in the middle of his prime, but certainly very close and coming off a good winning streak. incendently, Ramirez deserved a decision over Alexis Arguello.

Camacho wasnt prime, but still a damn good fighter, and Chavez beat him up worse than prime Trinidad and DLH did years later at higher weights.

SCtrojansbaby
03-19-2011, 01:10 AM
oh come on. even without his 4 great wins Leonard still had an amazing record. Price, Ranzany, Mayweather, Shields, Muniz, Gant, Green, Finch, Kalulue, Lalonde...all very good wins, especially those last two.
Randall was most definitely prime against Chavez. he fought like a man possessed in those fights, and showed he wasnt a one and done fighter with his excellent outings against Coggi.

Ramirez wasnt dead in the middle of his prime, but certainly very close and coming off a good winning streak. incendently, Ramirez deserved a decision over Alexis Arguello.

Camacho wasnt prime, but still a damn good fighter, and Chavez beat him up worse than prime Trinidad and DLH did years later at higher weights.

How was Camacho not in his prime?

I would say Chavez next tier of wins are far greater then Leonards next tier:
Cortes TaylorII Haugen Duplessis Mayweather Castillo

Steak
03-19-2011, 01:19 AM
How was Camacho not in his prime?

I would say Chavez next tier of wins are far greater then Leonards next tier:
Cortes TaylorII Haugen Duplessis Mayweather Castillo
Camacho was prime at Lightweight and superfeatherweight, before he ran into someone named Rosario.

Chavez has a lot of very good wins.
Mario Martinez
Ruben Castillo
Roger Mayweather
Rocky Lockridge
Juan LaPorte
Edwin Rosario
Jose Luis Ramirez
Roger Mayweather II
Sammy Fuentes
Meldrick Taylor
John Duplessis
Angel Hernandez
Hector Camacho
Greg Haugen
Terrence Alli
Frankie Randall
Tony Lopez
Giovanni Parisi
David Kamau
Miguel Angel Gonzalez(draw)

but Leonard is simply above him. the guy has wins over Hearns, Duran, Benitez and Hagler for crying out loud, and then you add in all those other good wins...

SCtrojansbaby
03-19-2011, 01:23 AM
On a seperate note in the 2nd Randall fight you see Chavez show he can be slick. After he gets nailed in the 2nd round there was a point when Chavez against the ropes made Randall miss almost 20 punches in a row.

SCtrojansbaby
03-19-2011, 01:41 AM
Camacho was prime at Lightweight and superfeatherweight, before he ran into someone named Rosario.

Chavez has a lot of very good wins.
Mario Martinez
Ruben Castillo
Roger Mayweather
Rocky Lockridge
Juan LaPorte
Edwin Rosario
Jose Luis Ramirez
Roger Mayweather II
Sammy Fuentes
Meldrick Taylor
John Duplessis
Angel Hernandez
Hector Camacho
Greg Haugen
Terrence Alli
Frankie Randall
Tony Lopez
Giovanni Parisi
David Kamau
Miguel Angel Gonzalez(draw)

but Leonard is simply above him. the guy has wins over Hearns, Duran, Benitez and Hagler for crying out loud, and then you add in all those other good wins...


Camach beat Rosario and there were no signs of Camacho slowing down. He had beaten Paz Mancini Baltazar and Haugen 2x IMO at 140. Then Chavez gave his best performance of his career in the signature Puerto Rico vs Mexico match up and shut Camacho out. I believe Chavez was even an underdog in the fight.

$Natedatpkid$
03-19-2011, 03:42 AM
I think Duran would stop him late when Chavez got desperate. At least he wouldn't say no mas and would go down swinging though. Duran was just an animal though when he was winning the fight which he would be since he's better in every area until Chaez starts swinging for the fences and gets dropped.

Kiddoe
03-19-2011, 07:23 AM
Duran by UD. 135 or 140

IronDanHamza
03-19-2011, 07:38 AM
oh come on. even without his 4 great wins Leonard still had an amazing record. Price, Ranzany, Mayweather, Shields, Muniz, Gant, Green, Finch, Kalulue, Lalonde...all very good wins, especially those last two.
Randall was most definitely prime against Chavez. he fought like a man possessed in those fights, and showed he wasnt a one and done fighter with his excellent outings against Coggi.

Ramirez wasnt dead in the middle of his prime, but certainly very close and coming off a good winning streak. incendently, Ramirez deserved a decision over Alexis Arguello.
Camacho wasnt prime, but still a damn good fighter, and Chavez beat him up worse than prime Trinidad and DLH did years later at higher weights.

In fairness that was a tough fight to score the majority of rounds were close rounds and it was a close fight.

I had it 96-95 for Ramirez. As many know I'm a huge Arguello fan and I'm openly biased when it comes to Arguello so it shows that Ramirez probably deserved the descion :lol1: It's tough to admit that but hey, I still stand by it was a close fight and a very tough fight to score.

The deciding factor for me was the KD in the 6th. I felt Arguello was winning the 6th quite clearly until the KD. Without that KD I would have scored the fight to Arguello.

joseph5620
03-19-2011, 12:26 PM
You don't know what you're talking about they were all in their peak when Chavez beat them

Randall was 33 but had his 2 biggest wins of his career before and after Chavez beat him

Ramirez was 29 and was coming off his most significant win.

Camacho was undefeated(I though he beat soundly Haugen both times)

As for Leonard he has 4 great wins but after that his resume is extremely thin. And I would say none of Leonards 4 big wins were as dominant as Chavez vs Camacho

Outside of Leonards 4 big wins (Which are huge) you're ignoring top contenders like Andy Price, Pete Ranzany, Randy Shields, and world champion Ayub Kalule at 154 just to name a few. Let's not pretend the big wins over Duran, Heans, Benitez and Hagler were the only 4 good fighters Leonard ever beat. Camacho's resume is nowhere near as impressive as Leonard's and he never beat anybody on the level of those big 4.


Camacho was not in his prime against Chavez either.After the Rosario fight Camacho was never the same fighter.

joseph5620
03-19-2011, 12:28 PM
You don't know what you're talking about they were all in their peak when Chavez beat them

Randall was 33 but had his 2 biggest wins of his career before and after Chavez beat him

Ramirez was 29 and was coming off his most significant win.

Camacho was undefeated(I though he beat soundly Haugen both times)

As for Leonard he has 4 great wins but after that his resume is extremely thin. And I would say none of Leonards 4 big wins were as dominant as Chavez vs Camacho

Actually, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Outside of Leonards 4 big wins (Which are huge) you're ignoring top contenders like Andy Price, Pete Ranzany, Randy Shields, and world champion Ayub Kalule at 154 just to name a few. Let's not pretend the big wins over Duran, Heans, Benitez and Hagler were the only 4 good fighters Leonard ever beat. Camacho's resume is nowhere near as impressive as Leonard's and he never beat anybody on the level of those big 4.


Camacho was not in his prime against Chavez either.After the Rosario fight Camacho was never the same fighter. And you comparing Chavez win over Camacho to Leonard's over Hearns, Duran, Benitez, and Hagler is just ridiculous.

joseph5620
03-19-2011, 12:41 PM
Camach beat Rosario and there were no signs of Camacho slowing down. He had beaten Paz Mancini Baltazar and Haugen 2x IMO at 140. Then Chavez gave his best performance of his career in the signature Puerto Rico vs Mexico match up and shut Camacho out. I believe Chavez was even an underdog in the fight.





No he was not. Mancini was coming off a 4 year lay off. And Mancini still nearly beat Camacho. That's not exactly a signature win for Camacho. Neither was the struggling with a fighter(Haugen) Pernell Whitaker completely shut out 2 years earlier.


Camacho was not the same fighter after the Rosario fight.

SCtrojansbaby
03-19-2011, 05:54 PM
Actually, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Outside of Leonards 4 big wins (Which are huge) you're ignoring top contenders like Andy Price, Pete Ranzany, Randy Shields, and world champion Ayub Kalule at 154 just to name a few. Let's not pretend the big wins over Duran, Heans, Benitez and Hagler were the only 4 good fighters Leonard ever beat. Camacho's resume is nowhere near as impressive as Leonard's and he never beat anybody on the level of those big 4.


Camacho was not in his prime against Chavez either.After the Rosario fight Camacho was never the same fighter. And you comparing Chavez win over Camacho to Leonard's over Hearns, Duran, Benitez, and Hagler is just ridiculous.

Camacho beat Rosario and had already put together a fine resume at 140 by the time Chavez shut him out. Stop with the excuses Camacho was in his prime and he was shot after that fight.

Chavez big 6 wins are at least equal with Leonards big 4.

You have to be insane to think Leonards 2nd tier of wins are any where near as good as Chavez(Taylor II Cortes Mayweather2x Haugen Duplessis)

joseph5620
03-19-2011, 06:34 PM
Camacho beat Rosario and had already put together a fine resume at 140 by the time Chavez shut him out. Stop with the excuses Camacho was in his prime and he was shot after that fight.

Chavez big 6 wins are at least equal with Leonards big 4.
You have to be insane to think Leonards 2nd tier of wins are any where near as good as Chavez(Taylor II Cortes Mayweather2x Haugen Duplessis)







Only in your world. Chavez has never beaten anybody on the level of Duran, Hearns, or Hagler. And that includes prime Meldrick Taylor. I think you are the one who has to be insane by including Tayor-Chavez 2/Duplessis as great wins for Chavez.

Ziggy Stardust
03-19-2011, 06:48 PM
Only in your world. Chavez has never beaten anybody on the level of Duran, Hearns, or Hagler. And that includes prime Meldrick Taylor. I think you are the one who has to be insane by including Tayor-Chavez 2/Duplessis as great wins for Chavez.

Reasoning with a nuthugger like Trojanman is akin to repeatedly slamming one's head into a wall: Ultimately his fantasy world proves impervious to any objective reasoning.

Poet

Vsec
03-20-2011, 04:01 PM
that fight would be EPIIIIIC

one of my top fantasy fights

SCtrojansbaby
03-20-2011, 05:41 PM
Only in your world. Chavez has never beaten anybody on the level of Duran, Hearns, or Hagler. And that includes prime Meldrick Taylor. I think you are the one who has to be insane by including Tayor-Chavez 2/Duplessis as great wins for Chavez.

DId you even read my post? When did I call Taylor 2, Duplessis etc great wins? I said those were his second tier wins and they are much better then Leonards 2nd tier wins. Chavez 6 great wins Martinez Rosario Randall Martinez Taylor Camacho Ramirez are equally as impressive and Leonards 4. That is why Chavez has the better resume. 1st tier wins are equal and 2nd tier is big edge for Chavez

joseph5620
03-20-2011, 05:53 PM
DId you even read my post? When did I call Taylor 2, Duplessis etc great wins? I said those were his second tier wins and they are much better then Leonards 2nd tier wins. Chavez 6 great wins Martinez Rosario Randall Martinez Taylor Camacho Ramirez are equally as impressive and Leonards 4. That is why Chavez has the better resume. 1st tier wins are equal and 2nd tier is big edge for Chavez



I did read your post and I find them incredible. Chavez biggest wins don't match up to Leonard's no matter how much you want to fantasize about it. And his "second tier" opponents aren't better either.



"Martinez Rosario Randall Martinez Taylor Camacho Ramirez"
None of those fighters are equal to Hagler,Duran, Hearns, Benitez. Period.

IronDanHamza
03-20-2011, 06:13 PM
DId you even read my post? When did I call Taylor 2, Duplessis etc great wins? I said those were his second tier wins and they are much better then Leonards 2nd tier wins. Chavez 6 great wins Martinez Rosario Randall Martinez Taylor Camacho Ramirez are equally as impressive and Leonards 4. That is why Chavez has the better resume. 1st tier wins are equal and 2nd tier is big edge for Chavez

Except for the fact they really aren't.

Steak
03-20-2011, 07:29 PM
the only way you could say that Chavez has a better record than Leonard is if you put more emphasis on quantity over quantity, because Chavez did beat more top competition than Leonard.

however, Leonard's wins are HUGE, even if you dont give him credit for the Hagler one(which I thought he lost). I couldnt put Chavez above Leonard. the Kalule win is very underrated for Leonard as well.

its not even an insult, youd be very hard pressed to find a fighter with as many really good wins as Leonard.

SCtrojansbaby
03-21-2011, 05:22 AM
the only way you could say that Chavez has a better record than Leonard is if you put more emphasis on quantity over quantity, because Chavez did beat more top competition than Leonard.

however, Leonard's wins are HUGE, even if you dont give him credit for the Hagler one(which I thought he lost). I couldnt put Chavez above Leonard. the Kalule win is very underrated for Leonard as well.

its not even an insult, youd be very hard pressed to find a fighter with as many really good wins as Leonard.

Hard presses? Leonard has 4 great win Chavez has 6.

Is a razor thin win vs a past his prime hagler better then --- a shutout win vs Camacho. EQUAL

Is a very close KO win vs Hearns better then --- a close KO wins vs Taylor + close TD vs Randall. EQUAL

Is a TKO vs a past his prime Duran better then a --- close KO win vs a prime Rosario + KO win vs Martinez. EQUAL

Is a Ko wins Benitez better then a KO win vs Ramirez. EQUAL

and as has been discussed and agreed upon Chavez 2nd tier wins are much better then Leonard's

Ziggy Stardust
03-21-2011, 12:29 PM
Hard presses? Leonard has 4 great win Chavez has 6.

Is a razor thin win vs a past his prime hagler better then --- a shutout win vs Camacho. EQUAL

Is a very close KO win vs Hearns better then --- a close KO wins vs Taylor + close TD vs Randall. EQUAL

Is a TKO vs a past his prime Duran better then a --- close KO win vs a prime Rosario + KO win vs Martinez. EQUAL

Is a Ko wins Benitez better then a KO win vs Ramirez. EQUAL

and as has been discussed and agreed upon Chavez 2nd tier wins are much better then Leonard's

Except that there's nothing "equal" about them. Camacho is NOT in the same class as Hagler. Taylor and Randall combined are NOT in the same class as Hearns. Rosario and Martinez combined are not in the same class as Duran. Ramirez is in no way shape or form in the same class as Benitez. Next.

Poet

Barnburner
03-21-2011, 12:36 PM
Ray Leonard is around 20 on my P4P list and I have Chavez around 30.

IronDanHamza
03-21-2011, 12:40 PM
Hard presses? Leonard has 4 great win Chavez has 6.

Is a razor thin win vs a past his prime hagler better then --- a shutout win vs Camacho. EQUAL

Is a very close KO win vs Hearns better then --- a close KO wins vs Taylor + close TD vs Randall. EQUAL

Is a TKO vs a past his prime Duran better then a --- close KO win vs a prime Rosario + KO win vs Martinez. EQUAL

Is a Ko wins Benitez better then a KO win vs Ramirez. EQUAL

and as has been discussed and agreed upon Chavez 2nd tier wins are much better then Leonard's

Those fights genuinely couldn't be further from 'equal'.

I mean, Benitez win equal to the Ramirez win? Abserd.

istmeno
03-21-2011, 01:49 PM
Those fights genuinely couldn't be further from 'equal'.

I mean, Benitez win equal to the Ramirez win? Abserd.i can't get past the fact that he actually is using the randall fight as any type of measuring stick considering he was given a way out of that fight.

joseph5620
03-21-2011, 01:55 PM
i can't get past the fact that he actually is using the randall fight as any type of measuring stick considering he was given a way out of that fight.




Chavez sure did find a way out of that fight. He quit. But nothing USCTrojan used as examples has any logic. So it doesn't surprise me that he would use that fight as an example.

BennyST
03-21-2011, 10:32 PM
Hard presses? Leonard has 4 great win Chavez has 6.

Is a razor thin win vs a past his prime hagler better then --- a shutout win vs Camacho. EQUAL

Is a very close KO win vs Hearns better then --- a close KO wins vs Taylor + close TD vs Randall. EQUAL

Is a TKO vs a past his prime Duran better then a --- close KO win vs a prime Rosario + KO win vs Martinez. EQUAL

Is a Ko wins Benitez better then a KO win vs Ramirez. EQUAL

and as has been discussed and agreed upon Chavez 2nd tier wins are much better then Leonard's

This is an excellent post. I agree. I think people really overrate Leonard's wins and as stated above by SCT, Chavez' wins over Camacho, Rosario, Ramirez and Taylor are equally as good as wins over Hearns, Duran, Hagler and Benitez.

If you look at it with simple statistics you can see that they are close, but then Chavez has more top wins than Leonard so that makes it even better. It's very rare to find someone with wins over four fighters that are arguably in the top 10-40 P4P lists like Leonard does, but Rosario, Camacho, Taylor and Ramirez are right up there equally as good.

I think at least Rosario has a chance to make the top 100. He's a HOFer at least! One or two of the others are as well possibly. That's pretty even.

Also, on more statistics, it can be looked at like this which shows the equality of the wins.
Hearns: the undefeated WBA champion 35-0. Just beaten HOF champ Cuevas in two rounds along with a few title defenses.
Benitez: the undefeated two division 38-0 WBC champion. Had just beaten HOF champ Palomino as well as beating HOF great Kid Pembele at 140.
Duran: 70-1. Unified lightweight champion who had moved up to 147. Just beaten HOF champ Palomino. Had lost one fight eight years previous and revenged it twice. No losses apart from that.
Hagler: Last loss was 11 years previous, which had also been revenged as had his one other loss...only one of them. Only two losses, early on career 11 years previous. Undisputed 160 pound champion, who had just off wins over HOF greats Hearns and Duran, plus undefeated Mugabi. Last fight before retirement.

So, I guess you could say that every one of those fighters was more or less undefeated, multiple time/weight champions, in about ten years. So, his oppositions only closest loss before he fought them was eight years previous, which had been avenged.... twice..... by KO as had Hagler's only losses, also twice, also by KO.

Taylor: was undefeated 24-0 IBF champion. Best win over Buddy McGirt.
Rosario: only two losses. One by close decision the year before and one by KO two years before. Was lightweight champion. Just come off wins over Juan Nazario and Livingstone Bramble.
Ramirez: only had six losses in about 100 fights, though had lost his previous fight...well, he had 'won' it against Whitaker technically. Anyway, he had lost/won his previous fight to Whitaker, would lose to Chavez, then Whitaker again, then to Coggi and retire.
Camacho: only had one loss, to Greg Haugen, whom he avenged it against the previous year to fighting Chavez. Last fight was for the WBO title against Haugen.

So, between each four, the first set had three losses all up, all of which were avenged multiple times by KO and the closest one being eight years beforehand. All were multiple division, multiple time, unified or undisputed champions and are all considered to be ATGs and among the greatest ever in their best division.

The second set only had about ten losses between them and a couple of them were avenged and the closest loss was I guess the fight before Chavez or at least the previous year or so in all cases apart from Taylor whose only black mark to that point was a draw to Howard Davis Jr.

That's pretty even in my opinion!

Ziggy Stardust
03-21-2011, 11:03 PM
This is an excellent post. I agree. I think people really overrate Leonard's wins and as stated above by SCT, Chavez' wins over Camacho, Rosario, Ramirez and Taylor are equally as good as wins over Hearns, Duran, Hagler and Benitez.

If you look at it with simple statistics you can see that they are close, but then Chavez has more top wins than Leonard so that makes it even better. It's very rare to find someone with wins over four fighters that are arguably in the top 10-40 P4P lists like Leonard does, but Rosario, Camacho, Taylor and Ramirez are right up there equally as good.

I think at least Rosario has a chance to make the top 100. He's a HOFer at least! One or two of the others are as well possibly. That's pretty even.

Also, on more statistics, it can be looked at like this which shows the equality of the wins.
Hearns: the undefeated WBA champion 35-0. Just beaten HOF champ Cuevas in two rounds along with a few title defenses.
Benitez: the undefeated two division 38-0 WBC champion. Had just beaten HOF champ Palomino as well as beating HOF great Kid Pembele at 140.
Duran: 70-1. Unified lightweight champion who had moved up to 147. Just beaten HOF champ Palomino. Had lost one fight eight years previous and revenged it twice. No losses apart from that.
Hagler: Last loss was 11 years previous, which had also been revenged as had his one other loss...only one of them. Only two losses, early on career 11 years previous. Undisputed 160 pound champion, who had just off wins over HOF greats Hearns and Duran, plus undefeated Mugabi. Last fight before retirement.

So, I guess you could say that every one of those fighters was more or less undefeated, multiple time/weight champions, in about ten years. So, his oppositions only closest loss before he fought them was eight years previous, which had been avenged.... twice..... by KO as had Hagler's only losses, also twice, also by KO.

Taylor: was undefeated 24-0 IBF champion. Best win over Buddy McGirt.
Rosario: only two losses. One by close decision the year before and one by KO two years before. Was lightweight champion. Just come off wins over Juan Nazario and Livingstone Bramble.
Ramirez: only had six losses in about 100 fights, though had lost his previous fight...well, he had 'won' it against Whitaker technically. Anyway, he had lost/won his previous fight to Whitaker, would lose to Chavez, then Whitaker again, then to Coggi and retire.
Camacho: only had one loss, to Greg Haugen, whom he avenged it against the previous year to fighting Chavez. Last fight was for the WBO title against Haugen.

So, between each four, the first set had three losses all up, all of which were avenged multiple times by KO and the closest one being eight years beforehand. All were multiple division, multiple time, unified or undisputed champions and are all considered to be ATGs and among the greatest ever in their best division.

The second set only had about ten losses between them and a couple of them were avenged and the closest loss was I guess the fight before Chavez or at least the previous year or so in all cases apart from Taylor whose only black mark to that point was a draw to Howard Davis Jr.

That's pretty even in my opinion!

You're missing one VERY important point: Hearns, Duran, Hagler, and Benitez are ATG fighters......Camacho, Davis, Taylor, and Ramirez are not. Rosario comes the closest but even he doesn't make many ATG Lightweight lists......at least not amongst Boxing Historians. Quite frankly there's a gulf in class here.

Poet

joseph5620
03-21-2011, 11:05 PM
You're missing one VERY important point: Hearns, Duran, Hagler, and Benitez are ATG fighters......Camacho, Davis, Taylor, and Ramirez are not. Rosario comes the closest but even he doesn't make many ATG Lightweight lists......at least not amongst Boxing Historians. Quite frankly there's a gulf in class here.

Poet

I'm assuming he was being sarcastic? :dunno:



At least I hope so lol.

Ziggy Stardust
03-21-2011, 11:09 PM
I'm assuming he was being sarcastic? :dunno:

At least I hope so lol.

Probably not.

Steak
03-21-2011, 11:14 PM
to be fair, Taylor is looked at as one of the best 140lb fighters ever, at least in ability.

Ramirez wasnt a bad fighter either by any means. He should have beaten Arguello, so thats two HOF fighters he has wins over, but the Whitaker one doesnt count. not bad at all.

although of course these dont match up with the likes of Benitez, Duran, and Hearns.

BennyST
03-22-2011, 12:28 AM
Probably not.

Geez mate, I thought you knew me better than that.

Was it not very obvious? :thinking:

Ziggy Stardust
03-22-2011, 12:32 AM
Geez mate, I thought you knew me better than that.

Was it not very obvious? :thinking:

Not your fault. I think my satire detector is busted today :thinking:

Poet

RubenSonny
03-22-2011, 05:29 PM
no possible way does Duran take out Chavez at 135lbs. Duran wasnt a destroyer at that weight...almost all his best KO wins were due to attrition. Chavez was not only one of the most durable fighters ever, but also had very good defense.

that being said, Duran would win on points that would be wide on the scorecards, but each round would be hard fought. Think Duran-Palomino, except more competitive. The infighting level would be about equal, but Duran would take the upper hand seeing as he could tag Chavez coming in and also counter a bit on the inside as well. Duran was a mauler on the inside, he didnt constantly attack you but would grab a little and simply wear you down.

It would be the best display of skilled infighting in the history of boxing.

Chavez wasn't as good as Duran on the inside, Mayweather(a guy not on Durans infighting level) was fighting on even terms with Chavez at that distance, Chavez was could only fight in the trenches and it took him a long time to get started on the inside, not only would Duran get the better if he committed there but he could also move away before Chavez could even start getting off similarly to what Whitaker was doing.

Steak
03-22-2011, 07:07 PM
Chavez wasn't as good as Duran on the inside, Mayweather(a guy not on Durans infighting level) was fighting on even terms with Chavez at that distance, Chavez was could only fight in the trenches and it took him a long time to get started on the inside, not only would Duran get the better if he committed there but he could also move away before Chavez could even start getting off similarly to what Whitaker was doing.

Duran's infighting style was much different than Chavez's. he would grab and maul a lot, wasnt super active. Chavez was one of the best at being able to create distance and go to work with short punches that were difficult to counter. The reason Whitaker was able to nullify a lot of Chavez's infighting is because he would attack a lot and put Chavez on the defensive...same with Meldrick Taylor. Duran didnt attack that often on the inside, especially at lightweight, and Chavez would have been able to go to work more.

so I maintain it would be about equal on the inside.

Wild Blue Yonda
03-22-2011, 08:23 PM
I don't know about that, Irish. I do agree with you that Duran's offense inside was of a different variety, but his punching power was also of a different variety to Taylro & Whitaker --- very different, as in a hell of a lot more punishing. Chavez is also at a very sizeable speed disadvantage with his hands at 135lbs, which is significant.

SCtrojansbaby
03-22-2011, 10:01 PM
Seriously this forum goes soooooooooooo far out their way to impose this dumb older ALWAYS=better crap

In what universe is Jose Luis Ramirez not an all time great? You guys stay overrating Hearns when in reality until he beat Virgil Hill he was a bridesmaid he was always close but could never get the big win.

Ziggy Stardust
03-23-2011, 12:11 AM
Seriously this forum goes soooooooooooo far out their way to impose this dumb older ALWAYS=better crap.

Seriously some posters go soooooooooooooooooo far out of their way to impose this dumb newer ALWAYS = better crap.


In what universe is Jose Luis Ramirez not an all time great?

That would be a universe were people actually know what the fvck they're talking about.....unlike your retarded fantasy world.

Poet

SCtrojansbaby
03-23-2011, 01:33 AM
Rawwwwr a 0-100 fighter from the 800 B.C. would kick a prime Roy Jones Jr ass
Poet


That is what you meant to say right?

IronDanHamza
03-23-2011, 08:51 AM
Seriously this forum goes soooooooooooo far out their way to impose this dumb older ALWAYS=better crap

In what universe is Jose Luis Ramirez not an all time great? You guys stay overrating Hearns when in reality until he beat Virgil Hill he was a bridesmaid he was always close but could never get the big win.

In one with sanity.

Is Ramirez a good fighter? Yes.

Is he an ATG? F*ck no.

Obama
03-23-2011, 09:13 AM
Being a hall of famer doesn't make you an all time great....Ramirez does make the A side of the HOF though, barely. (Assuming you split the HOF into an A side and a B side) Actually I'm not sure he makes the A side. But he's at the top of the B side at the very least!

RubenSonny
03-23-2011, 09:34 AM
Duran's infighting style was much different than Chavez's. he would grab and maul a lot, wasnt super active. Chavez was one of the best at being able to create distance and go to work with short punches that were difficult to counter. The reason Whitaker was able to nullify a lot of Chavez's infighting is because he would attack a lot and put Chavez on the defensive...same with Meldrick Taylor. Duran didnt attack that often on the inside, especially at lightweight, and Chavez would have been able to go to work more.

so I maintain it would be about equal on the inside.

Duran would also move in and out, he'd often throw punches on the inside in spurts, everytime Chavez would try to get off (and he did take his time) Duran could be out of there or mauling him to prevent him from getting any good shots in. Thats how Pernell was able to nullify his attack, Chavez was not able to land effectively on him as he went to the outside as he tried to start getting off. Also note that Chavez was fighting on near-even terms with Roger Mayweather on the inside, yes Mayweather was good on the inside but if Chavez was as good as you claim he would of had no problems with a long-bodied good fighter like that, Duran is a whole other animal.

Ziggy Stardust
03-23-2011, 12:52 PM
Rawwwwwwwwwwr the worst Heavyweight around today would kick a Prime Munhammed Ali's ass.

Rawwwwwwwwwwr Carlos Mayorga would destroy Ray Robinson.

That is what you meant to say right?

TheMexHurricane
03-23-2011, 12:59 PM
Duran would fight Chavez's fight & that would draw out proceedings, & make things more competitive than they needed to be, but eventually the fact that Duran did damn near everything better than Chavez comes to the fore. Duran by a 9-6 type decision. Chavez was a beast at LW, & he would welcome this challenge, but Duran was just his superior everywhere (except maybe heart).

Chavez had a better chin. Duran was dropped by De Jesus and Chavez easily walked through Rosario's punches. Rosario hit harder than De Jesus. I'd give this fight to Duran though.

Wild Blue Yonda
03-24-2011, 12:08 AM
Chavez had a better chin. Duran was dropped by De Jesus and Chavez easily walked through Rosario's punches. Rosario hit harder than De Jesus. I'd give this fight to Duran though.

You are right --- I would also give Chavez the nod where their whiskers are concerned. It's definitely one of precious few advantages, however.

Dynamite76
08-19-2012, 04:04 PM
Roberto Duran would have his hands full with Julio Caesar Chavez for the first half of the fight, but he would take control with his aggressiveness and subtle defense for a strong 15 round unanimous decision.