If he missed with one hand (which he rarely ever did anyway) he was always in a position to punch with the other hand, his judgment of distance was out of this world. He was never out of position. He was an extremley accurate puncher who wasted no motion and never threw a wild punch in his life. All the blows in this guys arsenal were so perfectly and precisely thrown every time that you get the sense watching him that he couldn't have been wild or sloppy if he tried! He was ice cold in action, and had an uncanny way of anticipating and avoiding a blow by the merest move of the head.

This guy could knock you out with a jab, had beautiful hooks with either hand, wonderful uppercuts with either hand, and a well-timed laser right cross that very few could survive when it landed just once. He was always as patient as patient can be, with very little risk-taking, and could punch as hard in the last round as he could in the first round. He could eventually catch up with you, no matter who you are, and knock you out. He has some of the fastest pair of hands that there has been, carrying some of the most paralyzing power that there has been. His punches were very short yet so full, and full of perfection. Once he found his range and sensed the time was right then you were out of there, his instinct was second to none and so was his punching accuracy, not to mention his sickening power. He was often immaculate, without even breaking a sweat. He punched to both body and head, never neglecting sapping body shots (and when this guy threw them they were sapping alright!).

Many people believe that his worst asset was his footwork, but they couldn't be further from the truth. This guy was fundamentally flawless, "good footwork" means more than dancing around like a bunny rabbit to avoid punches. Footwork was used by this guy to cut the ring by stepping forward and then drawing opponents into his punches by making subtle steps back. By pressing forward, inch by inch he would close the distance on his opponents and then by stepping back he would appear vulnerable, but when his opponent's moved in they were setting themselves up for his lethal counter-punches. Footwork can be used to create and close distance for balanced punching, not just dancing away as some fans think today. This guy has some of the best footwork that anybody has had.

He was one of the most fundamentally sound boxers ever seen, and was the best in a combination of both boxing skills and punching power. This guy could jab, box, feint, counter, and set up his punches with wasteless efficiency. Oh yes, he could do it all, triple left-hooks, you name it, and do it all effortlessly! He was also a master of defence, coming out of the ring without a mark on him.

He is by far the best heavyweight ever, the best puncher ever, he just has to be the best boxer-puncher ever, the best single-puncher ever, and he's the best combination-puncher to ever lace the gloves.

He had the longest world title reign ever, with the most world title defences ever, and the most world title wins ever - in any weight division. He didn't have film to study his opponents, but he was a superb technician who made opponent's pay for mistakes and could dissect any opponent's style once he understood them as his record of 10-0 in rematches demonstrates.

For me, 'pound-for-pound' puts everybody on a level playing field. Just because you can't move up in weight shouldn't count against you 'pound-for-pound', and therefore my choice as the pound-for-pound number-one of all-time, is........................................

























THE BROWN BOMBER

http://img351.imageshack.us/img351/6738/joelouissized4ui.jpg

whew...he didn't say Eubank...

Just for you JuyJuy I will say it's Eubanks :D.

I honestly thought it was going to say "Eubank" lol

Anyways, I agree with you. I can't believe I just said that.

I agree with you but then I'm biased as he is one of my top three all time favorite fighters.

In terms of him being a pound for pound great, it's a no brainer for me. It's because he actually fought larger men who possessed skill and talent (Abe Simon, Buddy Baer, Max Baer etc) and annihilated them whereas guys like Bernard Hopkins were forced to stay at a smaller weight so they could continue to win against physically weaker opponents. Many people have forgotten the true meaning of "pound for pound".

Only Jack Dempsey handled men much bigger than himself in such a manner and most of them weren't as good as the giants Louis faced. Abe Simon for one was better than Michael Grant, Ruddock, and a lot of the contemporary so called skilled big men (230+ lbs). Buddy Baer was a HUGE puncher, very tough, and an accomplished slugger (but he was and is often left in the shadow of his more charismatic brother). Even Carnera, limited as he was, was a better fighter and had a better jab than Grant, McCline and some of the other guys around. He lacked power but was much more skilled than his reputation suggests. Max Schmeling even said he was impressed with Primo's technique in his autobiography and Schmeling didn't bull**** anyone.

I am completely confident that Louis would more than hold his own against the modern heavyweight. He was unreal.

Louis was great but Ali was better.

Louis was great but Ali was better.
Joe Louis was in a class all by himself, he was in a league of his own, as far as I'm concerned he was on another planet.. he was better than anybody, and Muhammad Ali was anybody.

it's Floyd Mayweathuuuuuur! Im serious.

Ali is better only in that he was fortunate to come along at a time where the field was richer in talent than when Joe fought. In terms of skill and ability, I place Louis higher. Ali wasted too much energy with his style of footwork, didn't get much weight behind his punches, and fought in a manner that would give Louis too many opportunities.

Ali never faced a puncher with Louis's handspeed. He may have had the reflexes to make Cleveland Williams and an ancient Archie Moore look like fools but Louis could knock you into next week without you even realizing it. Very, very quick "point A to point B" handspeed. Those punches always took the direct route too.

On the inside, Ali was relatively lacking. Those whipping hooks were flashy and looked cool but they would never cut it in the trenches where the Brown Bomber was such a killer. Louis ripping to the body on the inside is one of my all time favorite scenes in boxing. He could throw a fight ending punch from only six inches away. He got more leverage than any other heavyweight in history period.

Ali's best work came on the outside, and Louis was a master jabber and parrier himself. Head movement was underrated. I think Louis was more than competitive with Ali on the outside and would absolutely stomp him at close range. That's the different. Louis was so versatile and could fight from anywhere while Ali was only exceptional at one range.

Let's not even start comparing Ali to Conn (the argument many take as to why Ali would beat Joe) because they were different fighters with different styles and skillsets. To define them both as "dancers" would be like saying Joe Frazier and Foreman were the same kind of fighter because they could punch.

Ali was not a bigger, better version of Conn, not by a longshot. They were completely different. In fact, P4P Conn may even beat Ali in a head to head matchup.

"I am the astronaut of boxing. Joe Louis and Dempsey were just jet
pilots. I'm in a world of my own"

-Ali

True he's in a world of his own, but Michael Gerard Tyson is in a galaxy of his own.

Tyson is a rat in a slum, of his own making.

I agree with you but then I'm biased as he is one of my top three all time favorite fighters.

In terms of him being a pound for pound great, it's a no brainer for me. It's because he actually fought larger men who possessed skill and talent (Abe Simon, Buddy Baer, Max Baer etc) and annihilated them whereas guys like Bernard Hopkins were forced to stay at a smaller weight so they could continue to win against physically weaker opponents. Many people have forgotten the true meaning of "pound for pound".

Only Jack Dempsey handled men much bigger than himself in such a manner and most of them weren't as good as the giants Louis faced. Abe Simon for one was better than Michael Grant, Ruddock, and a lot of the contemporary so called skilled big men (230+ lbs). Buddy Baer was a HUGE puncher, very tough, and an accomplished slugger (but he was and is often left in the shadow of his more charismatic brother). Even Carnera, limited as he was, was a better fighter and had a better jab than Grant, McCline and some of the other guys around. He lacked power but was much more skilled than his reputation suggests. Max Schmeling even said he was impressed with Primo's technique in his autobiography and Schmeling didn't bull**** anyone.

I am completely confident that Louis would more than hold his own against the modern heavyweight. He was unreal.
Totally agree.

And Billy Conn out-boxing Joe Louis for 12 rounds at 169lbs is just a tad more impressive than out-boxing John Ruiz for 12 rounds on roids.

Tyson is a rat in a slum, of his own making.

Tyson would have KO'd Joe Louis, you know it.

God who was it that said he could probably KO Louis? There was actually someone on this forum who was this 250 lb powerlifter and claimed he would have had a chance at Louis just because of his build. Some funny ****.

Tyson would have KO'd Joe Louis, you know it.

He never would have had the chance. Tyson can't take a punch, it's been proven time and time again.

For the love of God people, stop, think and understand why Tyson is not a Top 10 heavyweight. Jesus christ get a grip.

It's hard to imagine anyone being able to outbrawl Tyson in his prime.

Very hard.

Maybe impossible. Tyson comes from a different era. Perhaps when restricted with the genetic patterns and technology of the 1940's, Louis would beat Tyson.

He never would have had the chance. Tyson can't take a punch, it's been proven time and time again.

For the love of God people, stop, think and understand why Tyson is not a Top 10 heavyweight. Jesus christ get a grip.

Tyson can't take a punch?

I stopped reading your ridiculous post from there.

He's only been stopped from an accumulation of punishment.

Let's not forget Joe Louis' suspect defense and chin.

Ali was so technically flawed it was unreal. Basically, Ali didn't know how to properly hold his hands, didn't know how to duck, and just did not know how to parry or block a jab. Ali pulled back or side stepped rather than hold his guard up or duck, why do you think he had so much trouble with Ken Norton who was getting in there and using his jab? Because he couldn't block a jab, or didn't even know how.

Ali was not a very good fighter technically, Roy Jones is another example of a very poor fighter technically. The likes of Ali and Jones Jr just relied on their physical gifts (speed, reflexes, and in Ali's case - chin). Ali was much more hittable in his prime than people seem to think, just watch how many flush right hands he takes from the likes of light-hitting (compared to Louis) fighters like Zora Foley and George Chuvalo, and then please just go and watch how much trouble he has with good left jabs (Norton, Doug Jones), "The Greatest" just would not get away with that **** against Joe Louis. Louis' right hand only travelled about six inches, and it was lightning fast, much faster than anything Ali ever saw, and you had absolutely no warning when it was going to come! If Louis wouldn't eventually catch up with Ali and knock him out with a right cross, he would catch up with him and catch him with the left hook.

If you start from the centre of the ring, it will only take three steps to get Ali on the ropes. Every time Louis would jab Ali, he would step in and jab him again. Louis held his right glove high (unlike Ali) and that would be the difference, Louis would be blocking Ali's jab with his right hand glove high while punching with him, not slipping or dipping because you don't catch Ali doing that, you catch Ali by jabbing when Ali starts to jab, and you will destroy Ali's rythm doing this. Louis was so smart, he wouldn't lead with left hooks to the head against Ali like all the other suckers, because Louis knows that if he did start throwing left hooks at Ali without intelligent pressure then Ali would pull back towards the ropes and pepper him with counters. Louis would use his jab, and punch with Ali, Ali was a sucker for a good left jab! It would not matter that Ali's jab would "get there first" because Louis would block Ali's jab with his right glove held high, his chin tucked under his shoulder, and counter Ali in the middle of his face with his own jab just as Norton did. He would use the jab to maneuver Ali to the ropes.

Ali has never fought anybody who can cut the ring off like Louis did, when he gets Ali to the ropes due to Louis' 'jab and step' from the centre of the ring I mentioned above, he would pound Ali's body with precision timing and weaken him like **** (much worse than Foreman did) and due to Louis' range being so short and Ali's range being so long, meaning that Louis would be in nice and close to Ali, it means that Ali would not be able to counter with jabs or crosses because he would have nowhere to go against the ropes! So as Ali drops his right hand to deliver the uppercut, Louis would deliver the knockout drops with the left hook (and we know that the left hook and Ali aren't best friends - Cooper, Frazier anyone?).

Tyson can't take a punch?

I stopped reading your ridiculous post from there.

He's only been stopped from an accumulation of punishment.

Let's not forget Joe Louis' suspect defense and chin.

Uggh, here we go again. I'm done with this debate, as it's been beaten to death (much like Tyson) over and over again. You have the people who look at things analytically and objectively who see that Tyson was nothing but punching power and hype. When it came down to it, he didn't beat a single "great" fighter of his era. If you say Spinx, you should never post again on any boxing related thread for the rest of your life.

Ali was the 2nd best fighter of all time, closely behind Louis. Louis was the best all-around heavyweight of any generation...the only thing that Ali lacked was the defense (relied on reflexes and chin) and the punching power. Most of his KO's were from accumulated punishment.

I'm torn on Tyson. Do I find his fights entertaining? Yes! Do I continue to watch his fights? Yes! Would I consider him one of the Top Heavyweight "Boxers" of all time? No! Would I consider him one of the most influential boxers of all time? Yes!

He was quick and powerful in his prime, but once he lost his intimidation factor people started to figure out that all you have to do is get him past round three and if he doesn't KO you he will get frustrated and begin to take shot after shot before resorting to some sort of illegal tactic. For that reason, he will never crack anyone's top 10 list of heavy's!

Ali #1 Louis #2 Tyson #16

I think Louis could knockout Ali with a left hook (after working him towards the ropes) in any round of the fight. But I would say that the most likely outcome would be Louis catching up with him and knocking out Ali with a right cross after 12-15 rounds.

As for Conn, well Billy Conn is the best LHW ever for me and I've always said that, and overall LHW has been a stronger division than HW.

Ali #1 Louis #2 Tyson #16
Nope, sorry. Not true.

Louis was in a league all by himself, he's #1 and nobody comes close.

Ali's physical advantages would too much for Louis though I agree Joe was more technically proficient. Ali's speed, reach footwork and chin give Louis little chance of winning

Nope, sorry. Not true.

Louis was in a league all by himself, he's #1 and nobody comes close.

Uh there is no true or false involved here.

This is all theoretical.

You said Louis is the best BOXER ever? Are we talking heavyweights or P4P?

I'd say George Foreman. Like ussual?

If we are talking about the boxer with the most potential then its got to be mike tyson . Amazing handspeed, great footspeed , great reflexes, great defense amazing power and one of the best finishers in boxing history . Prime tyson had everything that a boxer could possibly want .

Joe Louis was probably a perfect boxer; and by that i mean, he was probably the most correct technician of all-time. The execution of his punches were ALWAYS textbook, short, and at full force. He was extremely economical with his movement, wasting very little energy, and his ability to put punches into combinations is rivaled only by Sugar Ray Robinson, in my opinion. In short, he was a near flawless offensive fighter.

However, be clear about one thing: though he was a near perfect "boxer", he was far from a perfect "fighter". With Joe Louis being my favorite fighter of all-time, it's difficult for me to acknowledge such a fact. But like everyone that steps into the ring, he had flaws: he was slow of foot, and his chin (though not as bad as most make it out to be) wasn't necessarily made of iron. No fighter is unbeatable.

whew...he didn't say Eubank...

Just for you JuyJuy I will say it's Eubanks :D.

I honestly thought it was going to say "Eubank" lol

Anyways, I agree with you. I can't believe I just said that.

Well Eubank was more like Ali than Louis. Eubank had many technical flaws but made up for it with speed, reflexes, and his chin.

joe louis was way better than tyson and mayweather. he's an O.G. boxer. he was tough as nails...

Roy Jones Jr.



I guess ya must of forgot

Depending on what day of the week it is (and who I'd choose in the #1 spot), my choice for the greatest fighter ever will always come down to but four men...Sam Langford, Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, and Harry Greb.

although i agree somewhat with JUY that joe louis was a great technical/text book boxer i think the crown of best boxer still goes to 'shuga' (no, not leonard)...we was a monster at welterweight.

Louis was great but Ali was better.

I dont think Louis was the best but he was better than Ali, without doubt.

I dont think Louis was the best but he was better than Ali, without doubt.



how so???

the messsage you have....

The Goldenboy Oscar De La Hoooooooooooooooya!!

how so???
Read the first post in this thread.

JUYJUY...

KARMA FOR YOU!

Brown Bomber is a ****ing god! I SWEAR TO GOD!

Everyone looked up to him! He was the ****in man! I have his biography, I'm going to start reading it as soon as I finish the Sugar Ray one first...

In my eyes, Robinson and Louis are tied, but I'd give the nod to Sugar Ray, both legends from Detroit! Both trained together when Robinson first turned pro! Louis was a hero to Robinson and many others!

Sugar Ray Robinson many people say is overrated, but the guy is another boxing god!

The 4 boxing gods are Sugar Ray Robinson(Walker Smith Jr.), Joseph Louis Barrow, Henry Armstrong and I forgot Willie Peps real name..

My pound for pound list...

#1. Sugar Ray Robinson
#2. Joe Louis
#3. Willie Pepp
#4. Henry Armstrong

These are the 4 boxing gods.

Roy Jones Jr.



I guess ya must of forgot
bad k for you

As for Mike Tyson, back in the days he was training hard at the Catkills he was better than anybody I've ever seen under the age of 22 (in any weight division). Infact he was so damn good that he achieved everything quicker than anybody else ever (he hinted retirement at the post-fight press conference after the Spinks fight because he had nothing more to prove, nothing more to do), so to be honest he was TOO good for his own good, and that caused him to abandon everything after the Spinks fight and become a freakshow instead. He left the Catskills right after the Spinks fight. Mike had a fantastic jab that a lot of his taller opponents (Biggs, Tucker, Holmes, Spinks etc) didn't expect, and so it was a secret weapon! But he abandoned using his good hard jab after leaving Rooney.

Mike also abandoned the D'Amato style defence and Rooney's numbers system in attack. He abandoned all of this after the Spinks fight.

And instead of weighing 210-215 as he did when he was fighting out of the Catskills, he started weighed 225+ for fights Post-Catskills (and that was AFTER starving himself for days, which means he wasn't ever in the gym between the Spinks and Douglas fights). Mike's two and three-punch combinations were brilliant, his great hand speed and brutal power combined with smooth execution was a site to behold, his head movement was there, his feet were excellent, and he was accurate back in those days (very accurate body shots in particular, set up head shots well).
86-88 the guy was a boxing demi-god.

THE BROWN BOMBER

http://img351.imageshack.us/img351/6738/joelouissized4ui.jpg


bull****, he was slow as hell. Better than Ali? You've got to be crazy. Hell Eubank was easily better. Not even a contest. Joe Louis was good then for his time but its ridiculous when people compare him to people beyond his era. mediocre heavyweights of the 70s, 80s, and 90s would've beat him. he's overrated as a fighter. he was an important figure because he gave lots of black people hope, but that doesn't make him better than Ali.

Ray Robinson was much better.

[QUOTE=JUYJUY]
Many people believe that his worst asset was his footwork, but they couldn't be further from the truth. This guy was fundamentally flawless, "good footwork" means more than dancing around like a bunny rabbit to avoid punches. Footwork was used by this guy to cut the ring by stepping forward and then drawing opponents into his punches by making subtle steps back. By pressing forward, inch by inch he would close the distance on his opponents and then by stepping back he would appear vulnerable, but when his opponent's moved in they were setting themselves up for his lethal counter-punches. Footwork can be used to create and close distance for balanced punching, not just dancing away as some fans think today. This guy has some of the best footwork that anybody has had.

He was one of the most fundamentally sound boxers ever seen, and was the best in a combination of both boxing skills and punching power. This guy could jab, box, feint, counter, and set up his punches with wasteless efficiency. Oh yes, he could do it all, triple left-hooks, you name it, and do it all effortlessly! He was also a master of defence, coming out of the ring without a mark on him.

He is by far the best heavyweight ever, the best puncher ever, he just has to be the best boxer-puncher ever, the best single-puncher ever, and he's the best combination-puncher to ever lace the gloves.










the best combo puncher ever, best single puncher ever, and all around best puncher has not joe louis. your overexaggerating his talents, he was great, but the whole speil about footwork was totally overrating louis talents. everybody has their opinion, and mine is that ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time, maybe even the best boxer

bull****, he was slow as hell. Better than Ali? You've got to be crazy. Hell Eubank was easily better. Not even a contest. Joe Louis was good then for his time but its ridiculous when people compare him to people beyond his era. mediocre heavyweights of the 70s, 80s, and 90s would've beat him. he's overrated as a fighter. he was an important figure because he gave lots of black people hope, but that doesn't make him better than Ali.

Ray Robinson was much better.

How retarded are you?

Joe Louis is a god...

You still pwned? You haven't correctly answered who Zab Judah has beaten...

BTW Joe Louis is a heavyweight, I don't think you seen a heavyweight before, Louis is a fast mofo..

Again..

Louis = God

Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest boxer of all time, no ifs & buts about it.

Floyed Mayweather Jr. is the best boxer I ever seen in the last 25 years.

wow he didnt say Eubaunk

How retarded are you?

Joe Louis is a god...

You still pwned? You haven't correctly answered who Zab Judah has beaten...

BTW Joe Louis is a heavyweight, I don't think you seen a heavyweight before, Louis is a fast mofo..

Again..

Louis = God


apologies for this one sureno, but...




http://www.pugilistica.com/BoxingArchive2/RockyMarcianoVSJoeLouis1951JoePunchedOnRopes2.JPG

Best boxer ever=Manute Bol

Tyson can't take a punch?

I stopped reading your ridiculous post from there.

He's only been stopped from an accumulation of punishment.

Let's not forget Joe Louis' suspect defense and chin.

OF course Tyson can take a punch but could he beat Joe Louis, i dont know. The old Tyson gives any fighter ever hell and thats a fact. Tyson had all the speed, power, and ability it was a mental breakdown after Cus died and other bull**** that lead to his downfall. So, to say the Tyson that knocked out Spinks could beat Louis is not out of the question. Just watch his old tapes and you realize his bodywork, raw power, and talent would make it difficult for anyone to beat him.

BEST BOXER EVER "CHARLIE BURLEY"

Read about him and u will discover why Sugar Ray Robinson never fought him

bull****, he was slow as hell.
Joe Louis' hands were ****ing FAST, his opponents always said that they didn't even see his punches coming because they were executed so quick.

your right rudy he was one mean mofo

apologies for this one sureno, but...




http://www.pugilistica.com/BoxingArchive2/RockyMarcianoVSJoeLouis1951JoePunchedOnRopes2.JPG

What about Ali getting knocked out by Holmes? Getting whooped by Trevor Berbick? and Leon Spinks?

You can't use that picture, that's stupid, that was his last fight and he was WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY past his prime, he was past his prime A LONG time before that fight.

JUYJUY...

KARMA FOR YOU!

Hey man no Karma's been added.

Louis-Marciano was like Eubank-Calzaghe.