View Full Version : Would Foreman always lose to Ali?


BKM-2010
12-26-2010, 11:08 AM
I believe so. You know I hear a lot of people claim how Foreman fought in a foolish manner and that he would dispose of Ali in a rematch.

When I look at the fight, obviously much of what you see is Ali on the ropes taking punishment from Foreman but also making him miss A LOT. Then, when they aren't in a clinch it is actually Ali who is outboxing and potshotting Foreman. In my opinion Foreman was not in his league skillfully, and the approach he took(trying to KO Ali) was the only one he could have succeeded with and he didn't. He never even really had Ali in serious danger.

So I don't see Foreman making good enough adjustments in a rematch to beat Ali. He couldn't KO him, and if it became a boxing match Ali, as he showed in the rumble of the jungle, would have outboxed him. That's what I believe. What is your take on it?

sonnyboyx2
12-26-2010, 11:48 AM
Foreman would never beat Mihammad Ali.. the Rumble in the Jungle was an easy fight for Ali

them_apples
12-26-2010, 11:57 AM
I believe so. You know I hear a lot of people claim how Foreman fought in a foolish manner and that he would dispose of Ali in a rematch.

When I look at the fight, obviously much of what you see is Ali on the ropes taking punishment from Foreman but also making him miss A LOT. Then, when they aren't in a clinch it is actually Ali who is outboxing and potshotting Foreman. In my opinion Foreman was not in his league skillfully, and the approach he took(trying to KO Ali) was the only one he could have succeeded with and he didn't. He never even really had Ali in serious danger.

So I don't see Foreman making good enough adjustments in a rematch to beat Ali. He couldn't KO him, and if it became a boxing match Ali, as he showed in the rumble of the jungle, would have outboxed him. That's what I believe. What is your take on it?

I also take into account the immense heat that Foreman had to endure. Ali on the other hand was taking breaks regularly just to keep up himself, and when Foreman finally took a break he took advantage.

I also like to take into account that this wasn't Ali's prime, it was however, an Ali in very good shape. But Ali in his prime had superior mobility, when he came back he still had the hand speed and accuracy but had filled out and could no longer move around for 12 rounds. Keep in mind Ali in his prime doesn't mean insta win. As if the strength advantage wasn't already evident, If Ali was only 209-210 lbs he might not have coped too well with a prime George shot too the jaw had he landed.

That said, I'd favor Ali over Foreman most of the time because of the style, Foreman's defense was to easy for Ali to get around and even if he couldn't knock George out under normal weather conditions he would have been able to steal and easy decision I'd think so. The other option is if George goes too Ali's body in a strategic manner, he could slow Ali down. When George was wailing on Aliu's body he wasn't placing his shots very well, he was more so hitting Ali's hips, a boney tough area. A little higher and he would have been hitting the soft area that does damage.

BKM-2010
12-26-2010, 12:56 PM
Good points but I personally don't give anything to the excuse Foreman had about the Heat. Ali was also suffering from this so under normal circumstances, both men's conditions would have evened out anyway.

IronDanHamza
12-26-2010, 01:21 PM
Muhammad Ali beats him everytime IMO. Maybe in the rematch Foreman could have tried being a little less gung ho thus allowing Ali to comfortably outbox him, or he could try the same thing again and get the same result. As great as i believe Foreman is, Ali is simply better, he even admits this himself now.

them_apples
12-26-2010, 02:53 PM
Good points but I personally don't give anything to the excuse Foreman had about the Heat. Ali was also suffering from this so under normal circumstances, both men's conditions would have evened out anyway.

i disagree, foreman was known to get arm weary and the heat just escalated this. Ali knew if he waited he could tire him out even quicker

Barn
12-26-2010, 03:11 PM
I believe old Foreman would have a better chance.

BKM-2010
12-27-2010, 08:01 AM
i disagree, foreman was known to get arm weary and the heat just escalated this. Ali knew if he waited he could tire him out even quicker

You could tell Ali was having stamina trouble as well and it was probably because of the heat as well since he was in great shape. So again, I doubt it would make a diffirence in a scenario where they would even eachother out.

bojangles1987
12-27-2010, 08:22 AM
An Ali still anywhere near his prime, no, Foreman would never beat him. Ali was smarter and tougher.

Rolaz
12-27-2010, 08:25 AM
Maybe, If they will have rematch next year(2011), Foreman will win!

Kid McCoy
12-27-2010, 10:08 AM
If Ali had only fought Frazier the once, would we all be on here now saying Ali could never have beaten Frazier, how Joe always had his number etc? I'd rather see top fighters fight several times before I decided one could never beat the other. Ezzard Charles went 5-0 against Joey Maxim, so I'd be happy to accept he had Maxim's number because he proved it over and over again.

The Rumble was a tough, close grueling fight where Ali came out on top, though at the cost of shipping some heavy punishment. Pacheco said as much in one of those Ali documentaries. Ali could have made a fortune from a Foreman rematch, yet to these eyes he was never particularly interested in meeting Foreman again and I always wondered why, especially as it was apparently an easy win for him.

sonnyboyx2
12-27-2010, 10:32 AM
If Ali had only fought Frazier the once, would we all be on here now saying Ali could never have beaten Frazier, how Joe always had his number etc? I'd rather see top fighters fight several times before I decided one could never beat the other. Ezzard Charles went 5-0 against Joey Maxim, so I'd be happy to accept he had Maxim's number because he proved it over and over again.

The Rumble was a tough, close grueling fight where Ali came out on top, though at the cost of shipping some heavy punishment. Pacheco said as much in one of those Ali documentaries. Ali could have made a fortune from a Foreman rematch, yet to these eyes he was never particularly interested in meeting Foreman again and I always wondered why, especially as it was apparently an easy win for him.

Foreman was never in a position to fight Ali a second time

Kid McCoy
12-27-2010, 10:52 AM
Funny how Foreman was never in a position to fight Ali but Richard Dunn, Chuck Wepner, Alfredo Evangelista, Joe Bugner and Jean-Pierre Coopman all were.

Barn
12-27-2010, 11:25 AM
Foreman was never in a position to fight Ali a second time
Foreman put an official advertisement in a magazine(forget which one) calling out Ali.

NChristo
12-27-2010, 11:41 AM
Foreman put an official advertisement in a magazine(forget which one) calling out Ali.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1975/1215_large.jpg

Bullrush
12-27-2010, 12:05 PM
95% of the time, yeah

he was 10 times the boxer foreman was. the only thing foreman had was his strength and punching power. ali picked him apart with his crisp combinations. technique beats strength and power all the time...nice quote by GSP :D

thats like trying to repeat tyson vs holyfield a 100 times. holyfield outboxed him but theres always that risk of tyson landing one of those big shots

Bullrush
12-27-2010, 12:06 PM
Foreman put an official advertisement in a magazine(forget which one) calling out Ali.
he would have done that even after 10 more KO's

Barn
12-27-2010, 12:12 PM
95% of the time, yeah

he was 10 times the boxer foreman was. the only thing foreman had was his strength and punching power. ali picked him apart with his crisp combinations. technique beats strength and power all the time...nice quote by GSP :D

thats like trying to repeat tyson vs holyfield a 100 times. holyfield outboxed him but theres always that risk of tyson landing one of those big shots
Foreman had a very good jab and could box proved by his comeback fights but, he fought too fast early and wanted a KO. Which is why I think the older Foreman who fought at a steady pace would have a much better shot at Ali.

Tyson.
12-27-2010, 12:18 PM
If Ali had only fought Frazier the once, would we all be on here now saying Ali could never have beaten Frazier, how Joe always had his number etc? I'd rather see top fighters fight several times before I decided one could never beat the other. Ezzard Charles went 5-0 against Joey Maxim, so I'd be happy to accept he had Maxim's number because he proved it over and over again.

The Rumble was a tough, close grueling fight where Ali came out on top, though at the cost of shipping some heavy punishment. Pacheco said as much in one of those Ali documentaries. Ali could have made a fortune from a Foreman rematch, yet to these eyes he was never particularly interested in meeting Foreman again and I always wondered why, especially as it was apparently an easy win for him.

Some people had a past prime inactive Ali beating Frazier in FOTC. Not hard to imagine a Prime Ali beating Frazier.

Yes it was such a tough grueling fight that Ali knocked him out in 8 rounds.

Funny how Foreman was never in a position to fight Ali but Richard Dunn, Chuck Wepner, Alfredo Evangelista, Joe Bugner and Jean-Pierre Coopman all were.

Foreman came back in 1976. Ali fought Norton and Young that year. Norton went onto beat Larry Holmes according to some and Young went onto beat Foreman.

In 77 Ali fought Shavers and Evangelista both who went onto challenge Holmes. Foreman retired in 77.

Ali wanted a rematch with Frazier after FOTC. Instead Frazier defended his title against journeymen Terry daniels and Ron Strander. What did they do to deserve title shots. Meanwhile Ali was fighting much superior opposition.

George Foreman, Holmes and Lewis were all stripped of titles for refusing to fight number one contenders. Ali is the greatest of all time, he fought all the best fighters of his era.

sonnyboyx2
12-27-2010, 12:19 PM
Funny how Foreman was never in a position to fight Ali but Richard Dunn, Chuck Wepner, Alfredo Evangelista, Joe Bugner and Jean-Pierre Coopman all were.

Foreman was out of the game from after he lost to Ali up unto 1976 with Muhammad Ali fighting Wepner & Bugner during that time, Foreman came back and fought Ron Lyle looking shyte while Ali fought Coopman, Young & Dunn within a 3 months period, Ken Norton was the official No1 contender and Ali signed to fight him while Foreman took on Jimmy Young and lost..because Foreman shouted for a fight does not mean he should be given one.. Juan Manuel Marquez, Andre Berto & Shane Mosley are all calling for a fight with Manny Pacquiao.. Bernard Hopkins has just drawn with Pascal yet he won't get an immediate rematch and Foreman did not draw with Ali, he was knocked out.

Kid McCoy
12-27-2010, 12:48 PM
Some people had a past prime inactive Ali beating Frazier in FOTC. Not hard to imagine a Prime Ali beating Frazier.

And some people (probably a lot more in fact) thought Ali lost. Frazier won a clear decision, knocked Ali down and had him badly hurt. If they'd never fought again the same logic used here would apply and people would be on here now claiming Ali could never have beaten Frazier. A series is a better way of determining who was better.


Yes it was such a tough grueling fight that Ali knocked him out in 8 rounds.

Hagler-Hearns was a brutal fight and that only lasted 3 rounds.


Foreman came back in 1976. Ali fought Norton and Young that year. Norton went onto beat Larry Holmes according to some and Young went onto beat Foreman.

He also fought Dunn and Coopman. Were they deserving challengers? Not sure what a fighter went on to do years later proves. No one knew that at the time.


In 77 Ali fought Shavers and Evangelista both who went onto challenge Holmes. Foreman retired in 77.

Evangelista lost his previous fight to Lorenzo Zanon. That he later got another undeserved title shot against Holmes doesn't prove anything.


Ali wanted a rematch with Frazier after FOTC. Instead Frazier defended his title against journeymen Terry daniels and Ron Strander. What did they do to deserve title shots. Meanwhile Ali was fighting much superior opposition.

Which is a fair point.


George Foreman, Holmes and Lewis were all stripped of titles for refusing to fight number one contenders. Ali is the greatest of all time, he fought all the best fighters of his era.

For almost the whole of 1977 the WBC were threatening to strip Ali for not meeting his #1 contender Norton, but such was Ali's standing at the time ("bigger than boxing" in his own words) they didn't dare. They did as soon as Spinks refused to fight Norton.

From 64-75 Ali fought everyone there was to face. After that point I don't think that's the case. Imo he didn't have much interest in fighting Foreman again or a fourth Norton fight.

Foreman was out of the game from after he lost to Ali up unto 1976 with Muhammad Ali fighting Wepner & Bugner during that time, Foreman came back and fought Ron Lyle looking shyte while Ali fought Coopman, Young & Dunn within a 3 months period, Ken Norton was the official No1 contender and Ali signed to fight him while Foreman took on Jimmy Young and lost..because Foreman shouted for a fight does not mean he should be given one.. Juan Manuel Marquez, Andre Berto & Shane Mosley are all calling for a fight with Manny Pacquiao.. Bernard Hopkins has just drawn with Pascal yet he won't get an immediate rematch and Foreman did not draw with Ali, he was knocked out.

So again, why does Foreman have to earn a shot at Ali when it's apparent that other lesser fighters were getting a shot for doing bugger all?

Miburo
12-27-2010, 01:10 PM
Hilarious how many people saying this was a joke fight for Ali that he walked through easily. Look at Ali's face after round one and tell me that a$$holes :lol1:

BKM-2010
12-27-2010, 03:06 PM
And some people (probably a lot more in fact) thought Ali lost. Frazier won a clear decision, knocked Ali down and had him badly hurt. If they'd never fought again the same logic used here would apply and people would be on here now claiming Ali could never have beaten Frazier. A series is a better way of determining who was better.



Hagler-Hearns was a brutal fight and that only lasted 3 rounds.



He also fought Dunn and Coopman. Were they deserving challengers? Not sure what a fighter went on to do years later proves. No one knew that at the time.



Evangelista lost his previous fight to Lorenzo Zanon. That he later got another undeserved title shot against Holmes doesn't prove anything.



Which is a fair point.



For almost the whole of 1977 the WBC were threatening to strip Ali for not meeting his #1 contender Norton, but such was Ali's standing at the time ("bigger than boxing" in his own words) they didn't dare. They did as soon as Spinks refused to fight Norton.

From 64-75 Ali fought everyone there was to face. After that point I don't think that's the case. Imo he didn't have much interest in fighting Foreman again or a fourth Norton fight.



So again, why does Foreman have to earn a shot at Ali when it's apparent that other lesser fighters were getting a shot for doing bugger all?

imo that's not a good comparison at all. Ali and Frazier were going back to back and it was a close fight up untill the knockdown. Ali had a lot of success against Frazier and it is really not hard at all to see Ali beating him in a rematch(if they had never fought again).

Foreman on the other hand was getting boxed silly by Ali and even when Ali layed on the ropes Foreman was missing most of his power punches and Ali rolled with a lot of landed shots as well. I really don't see any way Foreman could have beaten him. There isn't even a puncher's chance against Ali. In my mind he is the absolute worst styles matchup for Foreman.

How would Foreman ever beat Ali in a rematch? I'd like to hear.

I understand what you're saying that we can't be 100% sure since they didn't fight several times, but most discussions on this forum are hypothetical anyway.

sonnyboyx2
12-28-2010, 12:25 AM
And some people (probably a lot more in fact) thought Ali lost. Frazier won a clear decision, knocked Ali down and had him badly hurt. If they'd never fought again the same logic used here would apply and people would be on here now claiming Ali could never have beaten Frazier. A series is a better way of determining who was better.



Hagler-Hearns was a brutal fight and that only lasted 3 rounds.



He also fought Dunn and Coopman. Were they deserving challengers? Not sure what a fighter went on to do years later proves. No one knew that at the time.



Evangelista lost his previous fight to Lorenzo Zanon. That he later got another undeserved title shot against Holmes doesn't prove anything.



Which is a fair point.



For almost the whole of 1977 the WBC were threatening to strip Ali for not meeting his #1 contender Norton, but such was Ali's standing at the time ("bigger than boxing" in his own words) they didn't dare. They did as soon as Spinks refused to fight Norton.

From 64-75 Ali fought everyone there was to face. After that point I don't think that's the case. Imo he didn't have much interest in fighting Foreman again or a fourth Norton fight.



So again, why does Foreman have to earn a shot at Ali when it's apparent that other lesser fighters were getting a shot for doing bugger all?

Michael Grant, Frans Botha, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson all spring to mind 1999-2003

cameronpaul
12-29-2010, 12:26 PM
boxer beats slugger - slugger beats swarmer - swarmer beats boxer. worst possible match up for foreman was ali. but just because ali beat the greatest, doesnt make him the greatest. foreman is the greatest, its just that everyone has bad match ups. i dont think ali would last 5 rounds with prime tyson, and i dont think prime tyson lasts five rounds against foreman. the way i see it foreman would beat more of the top 100 atg than ali would and he would have higher ko %. but most of the time ail beats foreman in the ring. its just styles.

T3dBundy
12-29-2010, 01:06 PM
boxer beats slugger - slugger beats swarmer - swarmer beats boxer. worst possible match up for foreman was ali. but just because ali beat the greatest, doesnt make him the greatest. foreman is the greatest, its just that everyone has bad match ups. i dont think ali would last 5 rounds with prime tyson, and i dont think prime tyson lasts five rounds against foreman. the way i see it foreman would beat more of the top 100 atg than ali would and he would have higher ko %. but most of the time ail beats foreman in the ring. its just styles.

against a prime holmes he went 10 rounds in 82, so what makes u sure a prime ali couldnt last 5 rounds versus tyson?
thats simply ridiculous, even without throwing a punch ali would go the full 15 rounds with tyson, using the cassius clay footwork :D

Great John L
12-29-2010, 06:39 PM
I think if George Foreman had been smart and not fought like a caveman he would have beaten and chopped down any Ali from 1972-Onward. Ali didn't dance or outbox George. he just took advantage of George's frustration and less than stellar stamina to counter punch him to a KO. The immense heat was also a ncie bonus for Ali, who stayed relatively immobile while Foreman kept punching away to no avail.

cameronpaul
12-30-2010, 04:53 PM
so what makes u sure a prime ali couldnt last 5 rounds versus tyson?


the guy ali most struggled to fight was frazier beacuse of the bob and weave style. a style that tyson pretty much perfected. given that i dont think ali had faught anyone as quick as tyson-or as defencivly sound- i think he would blow ali out in a few rounds, orthough in a rematch ali might be able to think his way to fighting a better fight. first time they fight i think tyson wins every time.

Barn
12-30-2010, 05:10 PM
the guy ali most struggled to fight was frazier beacuse of the bob and weave style. a style that tyson pretty much perfected. given that i dont think ali had faught anyone as quick as tyson-or as defencivly sound- i think he would blow ali out in a few rounds, orthough in a rematch ali might be able to think his way to fighting a better fight. first time they fight i think tyson wins every time.
Are you kidding me? Ali had a monster chin and was never stopped and only KD once by Frazier and he got up after 4 seconds. He also fought Frazier post-exile when he was past his prime.

"The Hitman"
12-30-2010, 05:13 PM
the guy ali most struggled to fight was frazier beacuse of the bob and weave style. a style that tyson pretty much perfected. given that i dont think ali had faught anyone as quick as tyson-or as defencivly sound- i think he would blow ali out in a few rounds, orthough in a rematch ali might be able to think his way to fighting a better fight. first time they fight i think tyson wins every time.

I think that prime Ali definitely beats prime Tyson. Ali after prime could take all foremans shots and i know Tyson didn't just have power he had incredible speed too and the Bob and weave style, but prime Ali wouldn't be scared of Tyson like all his opponents were and Tyson never fought a fighter with the foot and hand speed of Ali. IMO Ali would win a late KO outboxing Tyson and wearing him down before pounding on and flooring Tyson late.

NChristo
12-30-2010, 05:16 PM
-or as defencivly sound-

Ken Norton's defense was pretty much made too deal with Ali, Jimmy Young was great defensively as were Archie Moore and Patterson (Another bob and weaver) although they were well past it.

"The Hitman"
12-30-2010, 05:17 PM
Also IMO at their primes Ali always beats Foreman, but older Foreman vs older Ali I think Foreman would have a much bigger chance and could probably win

Yaman
12-30-2010, 05:41 PM
I think if George Foreman had been smart and not fought like a caveman he would have beaten and chopped down any Ali from 1972-Onward. Ali didn't dance or outbox George. he just took advantage of George's frustration and less than stellar stamina to counter punch him to a KO. The immense heat was also a ncie bonus for Ali, who stayed relatively immobile while Foreman kept punching away to no avail.

The thing is, that's the way Foreman fought. Apart from the great jab he had, it was like watching a 'caveman'. But he was so strong and powerful that it rarely mattered, unless he found himself against superior boxers who were very durable as well(Ali, Young). Unless you can morph an old Foreman with the young beast in the 70s, you can't picture yourself a perfect version of Foreman to beat Ali.

And for the ones who think old Foreman would have stood a chance, please. A much quicker young George was boxed silly against Ali. The speed diffirence would simply be way too much here.

Great John L
12-30-2010, 05:58 PM
The thing is, that's the way Foreman fought. Apart from the great jab he had, it was like watching a 'caveman'. But he was so strong and powerful that it rarely mattered, unless he found himself against superior boxers who were very durable as well(Ali, Young). Unless you can morph an old Foreman with the young beast in the 70s, you can't picture yourself a perfect version of Foreman to beat Ali.

And for the ones who think old Foreman would have stood a chance, please. A much quicker young George was boxed silly against Ali. The speed diffirence would simply be way too much here.

That's what I was thinknig as well. Unless you can combine the good traits of young George with the good traits of old George, no George could beat Ali.

cameronpaul
01-01-2011, 04:04 PM
ok so if foreman or tyson have little chance of beating him who does?
who would you say has most chance of beating him?
i'll throw a few in

tua - lenox lewis - james toney - hollyfield - klitchkos - roy jones or any of the greats from black and white tv.

JAB5239
01-01-2011, 04:57 PM
ok so if foreman or tyson have little chance of beating him who does?
who would you say has most chance of beating him?
i'll throw a few in

tua - lenox lewis - james toney - hollyfield - klitchkos - roy jones or any of the greats from black and white tv.

Tua and Jones.....really?

BennyST
01-02-2011, 04:25 AM
ok so if foreman or tyson have little chance of beating him who does?
who would you say has most chance of beating him?
i'll throw a few in

tua - lenox lewis - james toney - hollyfield - klitchkos - roy jones or any of the greats from black and white tv.

Tua, Jones, Toney or any of the black and white TV greats? Who are the black and white TV greats and what does that mean? Many of Ali's fights were in black and white. You mean Joe Louis? Ezzard Charles? Marciano?
It's a pretty big statement.

As for Jones and Toney...well, what makes you say that? Jones beating Ruiz? Toney beating an old Holyfield?

cameronpaul
01-02-2011, 05:55 AM
Tua and Jones.....really?


honestly i think tua has a chance of beating any atg - your only ever one left hook away from a ko

As for Jones and Toney...well, what makes you say that? Jones beating Ruiz? Toney beating an old Holyfield?


no its not who they beat - its there respective styles. roy jones would be the only guy i can think of that would easily be faster than ali all round. and tonys gonna make it hard for ali to land anything much and tony also probably has faster hands.

look - im not trying to say either guy would definately beat ali, i just threw a few names in to get people thinking about what type of fighter would be best suited for beating ali. insted of telling me everything i say is silly - answer my question and tell me which boxer has the most chance of beating ali every time.

JAB5239
01-02-2011, 10:37 AM
honestly i think tua has a chance of beating any atg - your only ever one left hook away from a ko

While I do not share your opinion I agree with the last part of your sentence.

no its not who they beat - its there respective styles. roy jones would be the only guy i can think of that would easily be faster than ali all round. and tonys gonna make it hard for ali to land anything much and tony also probably has faster hands.

Arguments can be made for Jones speed, but Toney was not faster than Ali. Not even close.

look - im not trying to say either guy would definately beat ali, i just threw a few names in to get people thinking about what type of fighter would be best suited for beating ali. insted of telling me everything i say is silly - answer my question and tell me which boxer has the most chance of beating ali every time.

Ken Norton and Joe Louis have styles that would trouble any version of Ali. I can't see ANY fighter beating Ali every time.