What did everyone think of Vitali's talk about the situation in Ukraine? I understand that it means a lot to him, and I respect that he uses his quasi-fame to try and drum up support for a noble cause, but I was a little baffled by his comments that he was fighting for the honour of Ukraine. Hard to see how a boxing match relates to a struggle for democracy, unless maybe he was fighting Vladimir Putin :D .

Anyway, I get annoyed when Hollywood stars tell us how to vote (even when I agree with their stance) and this doesn't seem to be much different from that. I suppose his position as a national figure might mean he feels he has a responsibility to speak out, though. Not sure about this one.

What did everyone think of Vitali's talk about the situation in Ukraine? I understand that it means a lot to him, and I respect that he uses his quasi-fame to try and drum up support for a noble cause, but I was a little baffled by his comments that he was fighting for the honour of Ukraine. Hard to see how a boxing match relates to a struggle for democracy, unless maybe he was fighting Vladimir Putin :D .

Anyway, I get annoyed when Hollywood stars tell us how to vote (even when I agree with their stance) and this doesn't seem to be much different from that. I suppose his position as a national figure might mean he feels he has a responsibility to speak out, though. Not sure about this one.


......Normaly I would agree with you about actors and athletes speaking out. However, in the grand scheme of things this situation(in the Ukraine) is larger than life and the consequences will have a profound effect on the everyday life of all of the people of the Ukraine. Move forward with democracy and freedom or go backwards to the old soviet ways with no real freedom and a life of fear. It doesn't get any bigger than that and I applaud Vit on this one and I back his stance.

What did everyone think of Vitali's talk about the situation in Ukraine? I understand that it means a lot to him, and I respect that he uses his quasi-fame to try and drum up support for a noble cause, but I was a little baffled by his comments that he was fighting for the honour of Ukraine. Hard to see how a boxing match relates to a struggle for democracy, unless maybe he was fighting Vladimir Putin :D .

Anyway, I get annoyed when Hollywood stars tell us how to vote (even when I agree with their stance) and this doesn't seem to be much different from that. I suppose his position as a national figure might mean he feels he has a responsibility to speak out, though. Not sure about this one.

Yes "boxing for the honour of Ukraine" might be an awkward way to say he wants people to be proud of his country or something like that...he should not mix up his personal feelings about his country and his job
as for the rest I totally agree with you!

It is hard for me to judge the political side of Vitaliy's views.

I think the situation in Ukraine is very complicated.

It is not "Democracy" vs "Commies," since both sides are democratic (by local standards).

It is more of a cultural standoff:

Western Ukraine is very nationalistic and sees itself together with EE/NATO. Western U. supports Yushenko. (Plus all these freaking Nazis support Yushenko).

Eastern Ukraine is oriented towards East and Russia. Eastern U. supports Yanukovich.

Russia will never be accepted as a part of EE/NATO despite the fact that Russia itself asked to be a part of it. Russia is de-facto strongly isolated from and by Europe. Europe imposed trade barriers on Russia and now tries to impose its political will. Russia and Europe will never be together, not because of Russia, but because of Europe.

Thus, this election is seen as a major CULTURAL SEPARATION of Ukraine from Russia. The consequence might be a dramatic change for both Ukraine and Russia.

The two candidates received an equal share of votes 50/50 +/- 1% (and now they debate as to who fixed that 1%).

The astonishing fact is the STRIKING POLARIZATION of the entire country:

in some Western areas, 97% voted for Yushenko;

in some Eastern areas, 97% voted for Yanukovich.


I think that BOTH of these candidates should withdraw from the further presedential elections, because they have POLARIZED the country so much!


Personally, I understand the views of both sides!

I do see myself with Eastern Ukrainians, but I hold nothing against Western Ukrainians.

Vitaliy is one of my favoriate boxers and I respect his political views very much (even though I don't necessarily agree with them).

Interesting post Nautilus, karma coming your way.

The situation in the Ukraine sounds oddly familiar.......

It is hard for me to judge the political side of Vitaliy's views.

I think the situation in Ukraine is very complicated.

It is not "Democracy" vs "Commies," since both sides are democratic (by local standards).

It is more of a cultural standoff:

Western Ukraine is very nationalistic and sees itself together with EE/NATO. Western U. supports Yushenko. (Plus all these freaking Nazis support Yushenko).

Eastern Ukraine is oriented towards East and Russia. Eastern U. supports Yanukovich.

Russia will never be accepted as a part of EE/NATO despite the fact that Russia itself asked to be a part of it. Russia is de-facto strongly isolated from and by Europe. Europe imposed trade barriers on Russia and now tries to impose its political will. Russia and Europe will never be together, not because of Russia, but because of Europe.

Thus, this election is seen as a major CULTURAL SEPARATION of Ukraine from Russia. The consequence might be a dramatic change for both Ukraine and Russia.

The two candidates received an equal share of votes 50/50 +/- 1% (and now they debate as to who fixed that 1%).

The astonishing fact is the STRIKING POLARIZATION of the entire country:

in some Western areas, 97% voted for Yushenko;

in some Eastern areas, 97% voted for Yanukovich.


I think that BOTH of these candidates should withdraw from the further presedential elections, because they have POLARIZED the country so much!


Personally, I understand the views of both sides!

I do see myself with Eastern Ukrainians, but I hold nothing against Western Ukrainians.

Vitaliy is one of my favoriate boxers and I repect his political views (even though I don't necessarily agree with them).

Nautilus, I respect your opinion, too, but I have to take issue with some of the facts you've presented. You make it sound like this was a fair and proper election when in reality it was anything but. The Yanukovich side used every trick in the book to try and win the vote. Voter turnout in the pro-Yanukovich east was an impossibly high 96%. This is the sort of turnout percentage quoted by dictators of all stripes when they want to demonstrate their "popularity". In this case, Yanukovich supporters were driving absentee ballots all over the country and counting them multiple times, among other shenanigans.

The current pro-Yanukovich president also manipulated the state-run media heavily in Yanukovich's favour, and Putin regularly visited the country to apply his heavy hand to the proceedings. It was just announced as well that Yushenko was in fact poisoned, more than likely by supporters of his opponent.

Still, I'm really glad you posted your opinions here because I enjoy reading someone else's take on the situation, especially because you have a completely different perspective on the issue.

Nautilus, I don't know where you got your informations from but that must've been a very biased source. It's a fact that the vote was manipulated. Or do you disagree with the highest court of the Ukraine?

It is a fact that Yushenko was poisoned. And it's very likely that he was poisoned by the old regime. Do you call that a democratic act?

So it really is about democracy and freedom. Guys that manipulate elections and poison their enemies shouldn't be allowed to rule a country regardless of what they stand for.

And it's not only about being pro-Europe or pro-Russia it's about modernisation and a new chance for a new generation. Your argument of "Nazis" being a strong part of Yushenkos movement is absolutly incorrect. Or do you think that 90 percent of Kiew are extremly nationalistic?

To answer the question this thread was originally about: Vitali and Wladimir mean a lot more to the people over there than Michel Jordan or Tiger Woods to the Americans. Their word does actually mean something in political questions. Both Vitali and Wladimir grew up in a different time and era. They've been confronted with the old regime. Now they're rich and know all over the world. But they still care about where they came from and what made them. I respect both of them a lot for their engagement in this case. Not as boxers or celebs but as humans.

Nautilus, I respect your opinion, too, but I have to take issue with some of the facts you've presented. You make it sound like this was a fair and proper election when in reality it was anything but. The Yanukovich side used every trick in the book to try and win the vote. Voter turnout in the pro-Yanukovich east was an impossibly high 96%. This is the sort of turnout percentage quoted by dictators of all stripes when they want to demonstrate their "popularity". In this case, Yanukovich supporters were driving absentee ballots all over the country and counting them multiple times, among other shenanigans.

The current pro-Yanukovich president also manipulated the state-run media heavily in Yanukovich's favour, and Putin regularly visited the country to apply his heavy hand to the proceedings. It was just announced as well that Yushenko was in fact poisoned, more than likely by supporters of his opponent.

Still, I'm really glad you posted your opinions here because I enjoy reading someone else's take on the situation, especially because you have a completely different perspective on the issue.


1. You said that "Voter turnout in the pro-Yanukovich east was an impossibly high 96%."

The voter turnout in L'VIV, pro-Yushenko area was an imposible high at 95-96% or so. Somehow Western media ignores that and pays attention only to the "other" 96%

2. There was a lot of unfair actions from both sides. You mentioned one view on the role of absentee ballots. Here is another: The Yushenko side initiated a ban issued in the second tour on the so called "absentee voting". The people most affected by this are coal-miners from Eastern Ukraine (who work extended shifts and can not vote without absentee ballots if they happen to be on a shift). This ban is a direct violation of the consitution, and biased the results in favor of Yushenko.

3. There are no state-run media in Ukraine, except for one minor TV channel. It is all private but is run by business tycoons -- the oligarchs -- who divided the media support nearly equally (50-50 or maybe 40-60) between the two candidates.


4. Let's also remember that Yushenko is a former prime-minister, a direct predecessor of the current prime-minister. He is a part of the main-stream political system and has a lot of the support from within the system, including the parlament and the Supreme Court.

Nautilus, I don't know where you got your informations from but that must've been a very biased source. It's a fact that the vote was manipulated. Or do you disagree with the highest court of the Ukraine?

It is a fact that Yushenko was poisoned. And it's very likely that he was poisoned by the old regime. Do you call that a democratic act?

So it really is about democracy and freedom. Guys that manipulate elections and poison their enemies shouldn't be allowed to rule a country regardless of what they stand for.

And it's not only about being pro-Europe or pro-Russia it's about modernisation and a new chance for a new generation. Your argument of "Nazis" being a strong part of Yushenkos movement is absolutly incorrect. Or do you think that 90 percent of Kiew are extremly nationalistic?

To answer the question this thread was originally about: Vitali and Wladimir mean a lot more to the people over there than Michel Jordan or Tiger Woods to the Americans. Their word does actually mean something in political questions. Both Vitali and Wladimir grew up in a different time and era. They've been confronted with the old regime. Now they're rich and know all over the world. But they still care about where they came from and what made them. I respect both of them a lot for their engagement in this case. Not as boxers or celebs but as humans.

You distort what I have said.

It is not about democracy and freedom -- this is my opinion. period. You can not force me to change my opinion.

By "Nazis" I meant specific ultra-right parties in L'viv (who also drove out Jewish population from there) and not the 65%-pro-Yushenko Kiev. (not 90% as you say)

Indeed, Yushenko probably was poisoned. (I do not think Yanukovich did it though). I feel very sorry about this.

"Biased"???!!

I have many relatives and friends in Eastern Ukraine. I have lived in Western Ukraine for 10 years too. My grand-grandfather died in 1942, defending Ukraine from the Nazi invasion.

I care about Ukraine as much as Wlad and Vit do! I just have different views, but I do very much respect their views.

You distort what I have said.

It is not about democracy and freedom -- this is my opinion. period. You can not force me to change my opinion.

By "Nazis" I menat specific ultra-right parties in L'viv (who also drove out jewish poluation from there), and not the 65%-pro-Yushenko Kiev. (not 90% as you say)

Yushenko probably was poisoned (I do not think Yanukobich did it though). I feel very sorry about this.

"Biased"???!!

I have many relatives and friends in Eastern Ukraine. I have lived in Western Ukraine for 10 years too. My grand-grandfather died in 1942, defending Ukraine from the Nazi invasion.

I care about Ukraine as much as Wlad and Vit do! I just have different views, but I do very much respect their views.

So you're basicly trying to say that it is a democratic act to manipulate elections and poison political enemies (it is a fact that Yushenko was poisoned)?

And there have been and still are huge protests in Kiev and all over the country. What does it inidicate if even the students from the police academy demonstrate? There is an ultra right movement but neither Yushenko nor his voters do support them.

With biased I mean very onesided and not objective at all. I respect your love for the country and your position though I totally disagree with you.

So you're basicly trying to say that it is a democratic act to manipulate elections and poison political enemies (it is a fact that Yushenko was poisoned)?

I was NOT saying this. Please read my post.

And there have been and still are huge protests in Kiev and all over the country. What does it inidicate if even the students from the police academy demonstrate? There is an ultra right movement but neither Yushenko nor his voters do support them.

There are demonstrations in Eastern Ukraine too. Western media don't show them. How is that for a bias?

With biased I mean very onesided and not objective at all. I respect your love for the country and your position though I totally disagree with you.

Look, it seems to the western media coverage is one-sided. Have you seen on the TV at least once the supporters of Yanukovich?

In conclusion, that's fine that we disagree.

As I said, I respect the views of Vitaliy, Wlad, and your views, but I do have a different opinion on the whole matter.

I am NOT saying this. Read my post.

Well, if you don't how could you possibly believe that Yanukovich and the people surrounding believe in democracy?

Look, it seems to the western media coverage is one-sided. Have you seen on the TV at least once the supporters of Yanukovich?

Yes I have and I know that there are people demonstrating for Yanukovich. But there are by far more people on the streets for Yushenko. And Kiew, the political and culturell centre, is extremly pro-Yushenko.

But that's not all. For example I really don't understand why the old regime blocks the new law that doesn't allow people to vote more than once by casting their vote(s) anywhere around the country.

Well, if you don't how could you possibly believe that Yanukovich and the people surrounding believe in democracy?

Yes I have and I know that there are people demonstrating for Yanukovich. But there are by far more people on the streets for Yushenko. And Kiew, the political and culturell centre, is extremly pro-Yushenko.

But that's not all. For example I really don't understand why the old regime blocks the new law that doesn't allow people to vote more than once by casting their vote(s) anywhere around the country.


1. I do believe that Yanukovich believes in democracy.

I also believe that some of his surrounding figures don't and they hurt Yanukovich much more than they help him.


2. There are at least four major cultural centers in Ukraine:

I. L'viv (western ukraine, 92% pro-Yushenko)
II. Kyiv (center, 75% pro-Yushenko, not sure about exact number)
III. Kharkiv (eastern, former capital of Ukraine, 70% pro-Yanukovich)
IV. Odessa (southern, former intellectual and humor capital of Ukraine, 67% pro-Yanukovich )
V. Dontesk (eastern, center of coal-mining industry, 96% pro-Yanukovich)

The demonstration that you see in Kiev are mostly pro-Yushenko and many people from Western Urkaine came to Kiev to support Yushenko.

There is not the single center that you refer to.

I think it's ashamed that someone would try to downplay this world champion's heart and his desires of it.

What is it that you want in your life? Do you aspire to help those in need? Do you want your family taken care of? Do you want your kids to go to college? Do you want your home town cleaned up and violence stopped there?

How will you go about these things? Have you ever heard of using your talents to the fullest? If you were on stage at the grammies or the oscars and you just won an award, who would you thank? What would you voice while the whole world could possibly be watching? What does your life portray?

This man, who uses what talents he was given to make the most out of his life, feels that his fellow countrymen are in need of strength, in need of hope, in need of a promising future. What if they can find strength in his words and in his actions when he only stives to be THE BEST. This is how life works at times. We find strength in other's words and in their deeds.

Life has gone so far away from these principals, and frankly I think that it's refreshing to see it and it renews my hope in humanity.

What you choose to do with your time, your success, your life is up to you. I don't think anyone should try to make him look bad for fighting for orphan's lives, helping children in need, and giving strength to his countrymen.

:)

Pno

Whos the candidate they tried to kill with poisoning, and it ****ed up his skin?

They should make a movie about that ****!

To Pno:

I do not think anyone tries to make Vitaliy look bad!

Vitaliy is a Great Champion and I really respect his political views, and love and support that he shows for his country.



I love Ukraine as much as he does.

i totally understand that not everyone will agree with VK's political stance.
I just think that his example is a good one for all mankind, no matter their political stance.

:cool:

I think it's ashamed that someone would try to downplay this world champion's heart and his desires of it.

What is it that you want in your life? Do you aspire to help those in need? Do you want your family taken care of? Do you want your kids to go to college? Do you want your home town cleaned up and violence stopped there?

How will you go about these things? Have you ever heard of using your talents to the fullest? If you were on stage at the grammies or the oscars and you just won an award, who would you thank? What would you voice while the whole world could possibly be watching? What does your life portray?

This man, who uses what talents he was given to make the most out of his life, feels that his fellow countrymen are in need of strength, in need of hope, in need of a promising future. What if they can find strength in his words and in his actions when he only stives to be THE BEST. This is how life works at times. We find strength in other's words and in their deeds.

Life has gone so far away from these principals, and frankly I think that it's refreshing to see it and it renews my hope in humanity.

What you choose to do with your time, your success, your life is up to you. I don't think anyone should try to make him look bad for fighting for orphan's lives, helping children in need, and giving strength to his countrymen.

:)

Pno

Pno,

I do not agree that just because someone is famous they should speak their minds about any issue that they feel like talking about. In fact, because they are famous, they have a responsibility not to say anything unless they are fully informed on an issue. Too many Hollywood celebrities try to preach to the rest of us about what they think is "right" and believe that they have the right to do this just because they are famous. Sean Penn was notorious for criticizing Bush and the Republicans and, while I agree with his stance, his smug arrogance actually turned many people off of voting against Bush. He was seemingly oblivious of this backlash, apparently content in his fantasy world where his half-assed opinions matter.

Similarly, celebrities have been trying to convince us that they're half-baked religions are the ultimate in theology for yaers. Years ago all they talked about was Scientology. Now it's Kaballah, which they know nothing about yet which they go on about at length with that same smug arrogance. This sort of talk is not doing the world any favours.

I agree that Vitali believes wholeheartedly in his stance on the situation in Ukraine. And again, I support his opinions. However, should we be hearing these opinions from a boxer? Shouldn't we be listening to political scientists and other related professionals? Why are we listening to sports and movie celebrities and not experts in these issues?

Again, there are arugments both for and against what Vitali is saying. But you cannot simply say that he should say something just because he has a stage.

Whos the candidate they tried to kill with poisoning, and it ****ed up his skin?

They should make a movie about that ****!

It's Yushenko and if you had read a lil carefullier you could have gotten that answer yourself. ;)

1. I do believe that Yanukovich believes in democracy.

I also believe that some of his surrounding figures don't and they hurt Yanukovich much more than they help him.


2. There are at least three major cultural centers in Ukraine:

I. L'viv (western ukraine, pro-Yushenko)
II. Kyiv (center, 60% pro-Yushenko, not sure about exact number)
III. Kharkiv (eastern, former capital of Ukraine, pro-Yanukovich)
IV. Odessa (southern, former intellectual and humor capital of Ukraine, pro-Yanukovich )

The demonstration that you see in Kiev are mostly pro-Yushenko and many people from Western Urkaine came to Kiev to support Yushenko.

There is not a single center that you refer to.

1. Well, since you agree that some people around Yanukovich don't believe in democracy how can you support him and therefor support them and help them gain more power to abuse?

2. Kiew isn't only like 60 percent Yushenko, the number should be a lot higher. And how do you know that Odessa is pro-Yanukovich which I doubt?

You know the country better than I do but Kiew is the most important city of the Ukraine isn't it?

so if I get famous, I have to stop speaking my mind?
don't you think it's good to see famous people show emotions and effort to human causes? It's a change from the normal superficial self-centered galavanting they normally are known for, isn't it?

Let me ask you this...
would you rather see the normal trash talking, promiscuous lifestyle, better-than-thou attitude of professional boxers than this humanitarian display shown by VK?

honestly...?

don't get me wrong, I think it's wrong to blame others, or point your finger, or lash out against your enemies... so many times what celebrities say, I feel is not right or maybe the wrong timing.

1. Well, since you agree that some people around Yanukovich don't believe in democracy how can you support him and therefor support them and help them gain more power to abuse? T

2. Kiew isn't only like 60 percent Yushenko, the number should be a lot higher. And how do you know that Odessa is pro-Yanukovich which I doubt?

You know the country better than I do but Kiew is the most important city of the Ukraine isn't it?


1. I believe that Yushenko believes in democracy, but some of his surroundng figures don't (like the ultra-right Nazis who happen to be on his side this time, while previously they were not). The same is generally true of Yanukovich.

2. How do I know about Odessa? Well, I read the news every day, I spend hours every day reading the Ukrainian news.

3. Is Kiev the most important in Ukraine? Is New York the most important in the USA?


Look, you seem to be UNHAPPY about my opinion. You do not respect it, while I respect yours.

There is very little you can do to change this. Why don't we stop arguing right here? ok?

so if I get famous, I have to stop speaking my mind?
don't you think it's good to see famous people show emotions and effort to human causes? It's a change from the normal superficial self-centered galavanting they normally are known for, isn't it?

Let me ask you this...
would you rather see the normal trash talking, promiscuous lifestyle, better-than-thou attitude of professional boxers than this humanitarian display shown by VK?

honestly...?

don't get me wrong, I think it's wrong to blame others, or point your finger, or lash out against your enemies... so many times what celebrities say, I feel is not right or maybe the wrong timing.


I respect very much the fact that Vitaliy takes a very active position in all of this. This is what a true citizen and patriot of his country is supposed to do.

Amen to that! :D

he also seems to go beyond nationality and also apeal to the future of mankind, which is today's children.

:cool:

wow, i'm starting to sound like Oprah over here
:eek:

1. I believe that Yushenko believes in democracy, but some of his surroundng figures don't (like the ultra-right Nazis who happen to be on his side this time, while previously they were not).

2. How do I know about Odessa? Well, I read the news every day, I spend hours every day reading the news and looking at what happens.

3. Is Kiev the most important in Ukraine? Is New York the most important in the USA?


Look, you seem to be UNHAPPY about my opinion. You do not respect it, while I respect yours.

There is very little you can do to change this. Why don't we stop arguing right here? ok?

I find it hard to respect your opinion because you can't show me how you can support a group that has manipulated elections and poisoned their political enemy. You didn't say anything about the law that is needed for fair elections and that is blocked by these people either.

And there really shouldn't be an argument about wether Kiew is the most important center and city in the Ukraine. It definitly is.

I've heard different stories about Odessa but that's just the western media, right?

Anyway, I respect you but I just can't understand your opinion. I didn't really want to change it I just wanted to hear your side of the story. Whatever, let's leave it here and move on.

so if I get famous, I have to stop speaking my mind?
don't you think it's good to see famous people show emotions and effort to human causes? It's a change from the normal superficial self-centered galavanting they normally are known for, isn't it?

Let me ask you this...
would you rather see the normal trash talking, promiscuous lifestyle, better-than-thou attitude of professional boxers than this humanitarian display shown by VK?

honestly...?

don't get me wrong, I think it's wrong to blame others, or point your finger, or lash out against your enemies... so many times what celebrities say, I feel is not right or maybe the wrong timing.

Do you actually believe that the celebrities that are speaking out are not self-centred, arrogant, promiscuous jerks? Most of them are just as ignorant, yet on top of the normal displays of self-centredness they try to preach to others about issues that they know nothing about. Do you really think that Madonna is a humanitarian? Come on.

I respect people who lead by example in the fields in which they are truly experts. I respect Bernard Hopkins for his work ethic, his commitment to his profession and for the stances he takes against the boxing establishment. I respect Oscar De La Hoya for his risk-taking and his business abilities. This is more inspirational than a Hollywood celebrity telling me how to vote when they probably haven't a read a book or a newspaper in decades.

I guess you didn't notice the last bit of my post...

:confused:

This is what I feel you're talking about..
the fakes galavanting around, I think the example you give is Madonna..
I would never include those whom you speak of in the same category as VK... that's what I'm trying to say. :)

I guess you didn't notice the last bit of my post...

:confused:

I didn't know if that was what you meant for sure. Don't mind me, I'm just a big fan of debating when the right issues comes up :cool: . I agree with you that if people in positions of influence genuinely tried to improve the world, than we would all be better off. I do believe Vitali's intentions were genuine and that he may be in the right position where speaking his mind is a good thing, given his status in his home country and the sincerity of his convictions. Just wanted to get other people's opinions.

I find it hard to respect your opinion because you can't show me how you can support a group that has manipulated elections and poisoned their political enemy. You didn't say anything about the law that is needed for fair elections and that is blocked by these people either.

And there really shouldn't be an argument about wether Kiew is the most important center and city in the Ukraine. It definitly is.

I've heard different stories about Odessa but that's just the western media, right?

Anyway, I respect you but I just can't understand your opinion. I didn't really want to change it I just wanted to hear your side of the story. Whatever, let's leave it here and move on.


1. That's simply unfair. Each group has done its share of manipulation. I stated why I support Easterners in my very first post.

2. Yes Kiev is the largest city, the capital of Ukraine. That's clear. There are other major centers of education, culture, and industry in Ukraine, and Kiev does NOT and should NOT decide for the whole country.

Here are the voting numbers for major areas in Ukraine (I can provide more if you want):

I. L'viv (western ukraine, 92% pro-Yushenko)
II. Kyiv (center, 75% pro-Yushenko)
III. Kharkiv (eastern, former capital of Ukraine, 70% pro-Yanukovich)
IV. Odessa (southern, former intellectual and humor capital of Ukraine, 67% pro-Yanukovich )
V. Donetsk (eastern, center of the coal-mining industry, 96% pro-Yanukovich)


3. It is fine. It may be hard to accept that people may have different opinions and that about 45% of Ukrainians, let it be a minority (!), did vote for Yanukovich. Do you think they voted thinking "let's vote for this evil, undemocratic guy," Dr. Evil so to speak? Just think about this.

4. The whole business of ``Dr. Democracy vs. Dr. Evil" is a bad cliche ascribed to these elections (by some of the western media). The reality is far more complicated.

OK. Peace now.

I admire someone who sticks up for what they believe, and who won't back down

I hope that one day I'll be in a position like VK, helping where I can and using my talents to do so... it's what I aspire to do in life :) so you can understand why I'm passionate about it :D

but on the other hand, I hope to never end up like the superficial bunch described ...

:p

oh, and nice avitar dude

I admire someone who sticks up for what they believe, and who won't back down

I hope that one day I'll be in a position like VK, helping where I can and using my talents to do so... it's what I aspire to do in life :) so you can understand why I'm passionate about it :D

but on the other hand, I hope to never end up like the superficial bunch described ...

:p

oh, and nice avitar dude

I agree. Good luck achieving what you're after :cool: . Don't think you'll have to worry about turning into another Madonna.

btw, Nautilus has a cool avatar too.

yeah, that's some nice art!!!
I'll have to get me one some day..
don't know much about them, so i'm not bothering right this sec :)

I agree. Good luck achieving what you want :cool: .

btw, Nautilus has a cool avatar too.


It is a painting St. Isaac cathedral in St. Perersburg by a great Russian painter Aivazovskiy.

The surrounding of the place looks diferent now than when Aivazovskiy painted it. I have never been there, but I dream of going there.

My dream Eastern/Southern European vacation:

Moscow - St. Petersburg - Finland - Estonia - Latvia - Lithuania - Poland - Czech Republic (already been there, but it's amazing) - Bulgaria - Romania - Croatia - Greece - Istanbul.

Been through the West and Centre on a similar trip. Hopefully I'll get to do this some day.

My dream Eastern/Southern European vacation:

Moscow - St. Petersburg - Finland - Estonia - Latvia - Lithuania - Poland - Czech Republic (already been there, but it's amazing) - Bulgaria - Romania - Croatia - Greece - Istanbul.

Been through the West and Centre on a similar trip. Hopefully I'll get to do this some day.


I might do the same in a couple of years.

I've only been as far east as Romania :)
but travelling the world is what my life will consist of God willing :)

I understand Bombardier but dont agree with him. Vitaly is not a jerk for standing up for his people. Ali did the same thing. He was one of the activists of pro african american movement. Vitaly gained his popularity through fighting. He EARNED it. Now he takes a use of it. If he stood up for whathe thinks is right you can only respect it.
IMO any popular person might get involved in politics through out their careers. Just look at P.Diddy

......Normaly I would agree with you about actors and athletes speaking out. However, in the grand scheme of things this situation(in the Ukraine) is larger than life and the consequences will have a profound effect on the everyday life of all of the people of the Ukraine. Move forward with democracy and freedom or go backwards to the old soviet ways with no real freedom and a life of fear. It doesn't get any bigger than that and I applaud Vit on this one and I back his stance.

Life of fear? Ya rite! It is fun living in Ukraine and don't let any old history teacher tell you otherwise, what can be more fun then robbing a kiosque that sells candy bars with an AK47?

That's right. Nothing.

Whos the candidate they tried to kill with poisoning, and it ****ed up his skin?

They should make a movie about that ****!

Some bad guys also beheaded a pro-Yushenko journalist in some woods. That would make this movie rated R , though.

From what I've heard, Vitali supports Yushenko the pro-west candidate whose supporters display orange clothing,flags,and other visual objects. So I was surprised to see Vitali not sporting any orange just his usual black trunks.Was his corner sporting any orange?

they had been sporting orange TONS up to the day of the fight...
not sure why he didn't during...

From what I've heard, Vitali supports Yushenko the pro-west candidate whose supporters display orange clothing,flags,and other visual objects. So I was surprised to see Vitali not sporting any orange just his usual black trunks.Was his corner sporting any orange?
Because Hugo Boss did nor provide him with orange trunks. And he is supposed to wear only Boss's clothing on official events

wow, i did not know that..
i always knew somehow that he was sponsored or supported by them..
:)

He wore orange flag though. Also his team were all in orange shirts and hats.

orange you glad to see it?

:( i know, real bad..

orange you glad to see it?

:( i know, real bad..

Excuse me? Explain yourself please.

it's a play off an old joke..

like "orange" in place of "aren't you"

I believe, that Vitali has made a right choice. He supports democracy in the country.

I believe, that Vitali has made a right choice. He supports democracy in the country.



like any decent person would do; the problem is that half of people in Ukraine supprot one guy and hald the other; and all of them think they support democracy

interesting conversation going on...

in response to the orginial poster:

i believe vitali is justified in using the media exposure to promote support and most importantly, make people aware of the major and crucial period of time in ukraine.

granted i have not read everything in this thread, i would just like to bring up some points.

-while some may say ukraine is run by a democratic state, this is a far cry from the democracy experienced in the united states

-government backed media often brainwash the people with one sided information. reporters and journalists often time find themselves threatened and beaten, if not worse murdered for their voices of truth.

-channel 5, providing the only honorable news coverage, often times finds itself under fire from the government and has multiple times been tried to shut down operation. not uncommon for the channel to experience "technical difficulties" of no sound or picture or at times completely off air.

-the elections have indeed been rigged, as decided so by the supreme court. keep in mind that the 1st round of elections was rigged as well...

-candidate yushchenko has undoubtadely become a victim of poisoning

-Yushchenko was offered the post of rival candidate yanukovich as prime minister as a "settlement"

this is just a preview of the level of unimaginable corruption going on..

i can go on writing all the reasons for which i applaud the klitschkos involvement but its impossible to translate the feelings for your country when its in such a sad state, trying to finally rise from corruption only to be pulled back down by these selfish crooks willing to sell out every one of their fellow citizens. one would have to occupy the atmosphere to get a feel for why this country needs to previal.

klitschkos bout strengthens the believers... there is a parallel in klitschkos fight for championship and the peoples fight for democracy.