View Full Version : fat loss


Pooch
08-16-2005, 08:30 AM
im in the process of losing weight now up until september when the season starts so il hopefully reach my target weight by then......once this weight is reached how do i go about losing bodyfat withought losing/gaining actual weight?

Chiro/Physio
08-16-2005, 10:35 AM
Consider fat and muscle tissue as seperate entities. it is a simple equation: If you burn more callories than you ingest you will lose weight. Also, if you maintain a positive nitrogen balance (protein)you will allow your muscle tissue to grow (hypertrophy)or at least stabilise. Fat loss is best achieved via moderate (70% VO 2 max) cardicascular activity. Muscle mass is best achieved via resistance training (wieghts). Just remember to be SPECIFIC in your traing goals, all ok?

Pooch
08-16-2005, 10:39 AM
so if iv reached my desired weight and want to lose excess bodyfat i should do running/swimming (when not boxing training) because by doing weights i will gain weight but while doing the cv i should eat more protein or i will lose more weight..........right???

Chiro/Physio
08-16-2005, 10:53 AM
Running /swimming are fine, your aeorbic fitness gains will croosover to some degree to your chosen activity. If your goal is loss of fat tissue then duration of moderate ctivity is the key, usually the longer the better. If you stay at the moderate level you will burn fat (process called:oxidative phosphoralation) rather than glycogen as in explosive activities.

High protein levels are good. If you have excess the body uses the rest as a carb anyway. But remember that any calories not burnt of (carbs, fat, proteins, alcohol) will be stored as fat.

I also doubt that the weight traing would add significanty to your overall weight.

It is difficult to assess your needs without the specifics of your goals, traing, etc However, the same principles of sport science and medicine can be applied to any sport. Stretching, flexibility and core stability should be added to any serious sporting traing programme to reduce the risk of injury and increase performance (under rated i think)

EXIGE
08-16-2005, 11:04 AM
Running /swimming are fine, your aeorbic fitness gains will croosover to some degree to your chosen activity. If your goal is loss of fat tissue then duration of moderate ctivity is the key, usually the longer the better. If you stay at the moderate level you will burn fat (process called:oxidative phosphoralation) rather than glycogen as in explosive activities.

High protein levels are good. If you have excess the body uses the rest as a carb anyway. But remember that any calories not burnt of (carbs, fat, proteins, alcohol) will be stored as fat.

I also doubt that the weight traing would add significanty to your overall weight.

It is difficult to assess your needs without the specifics of your goals, traing, etc However, the same principles of sport science and medicine can be applied to any sport. Stretching, flexibility and core stability should be added to any serious sporting traing programme to reduce the risk of injury and increase performance (under rated i think)
Now here is a person who knows what they are talking about. What qualifications do you have in this field? Or have you just followed sports science for a considerable amount of time in your life.

Karma coming your way bro.

Keep posting, this site needs people like you and spinksjinx around.

Pooch
08-16-2005, 11:14 AM
Running /swimming are fine, your aeorbic fitness gains will croosover to some degree to your chosen activity. If your goal is loss of fat tissue then duration of moderate ctivity is the key, usually the longer the better. If you stay at the moderate level you will burn fat (process called:oxidative phosphoralation) rather than glycogen as in explosive activities.

High protein levels are good. If you have excess the body uses the rest as a carb anyway. But remember that any calories not burnt of (carbs, fat, proteins, alcohol) will be stored as fat.

I also doubt that the weight traing would add significanty to your overall weight.

It is difficult to assess your needs without the specifics of your goals, traing, etc However, the same principles of sport science and medicine can be applied to any sport. Stretching, flexibility and core stability should be added to any serious sporting traing programme to reduce the risk of injury and increase performance (under rated i think)
my goals are getting down to 140 (148 at the moment) before september and once i get down to 140 (by diet and exercise) to keep this weight and basically get ripped/hard/lean body.

PunchDrunk
08-16-2005, 12:20 PM
I have a question: If you reach "your desired weight", why would you want to lose excess bodyfat??
Your target weight should be wherever you end up, once all the excess fat is gone.

Pooch
08-16-2005, 12:23 PM
dont want to go any lower than 140 and once i get there want to get ripped without losing anymore weight

PunchDrunk
08-16-2005, 12:30 PM
Running /swimming are fine, your aeorbic fitness gains will croosover to some degree to your chosen activity. If your goal is loss of fat tissue then duration of moderate ctivity is the key, usually the longer the better. If you stay at the moderate level you will burn fat (process called:oxidative phosphoralation) rather than glycogen as in explosive activities.

High protein levels are good. If you have excess the body uses the rest as a carb anyway. But remember that any calories not burnt of (carbs, fat, proteins, alcohol) will be stored as fat.

I also doubt that the weight traing would add significanty to your overall weight.

It is difficult to assess your needs without the specifics of your goals, traing, etc However, the same principles of sport science and medicine can be applied to any sport. Stretching, flexibility and core stability should be added to any serious sporting traing programme to reduce the risk of injury and increase performance (under rated i think)

I certainly don't agree with your assesment that moderate activity is the key to fat loss. First of all, moderate excercise does NOT carry over to boxing.
Second, "Aerobic exercise has been linked with the release of the catabolic hormone cortisol, which is antagonistic to the development of lean muscle mass. Cortisol also promotes conservation of glucose and encourages the use of fat. This might sound good on the surface, but you also become as efficient as a Honda Civic running for 80 kilometers on one gallon of gas. Then you are just like those people going for hours at a time on machines, only to utilize miniscule amounts of fat. Seriously - there are thousands of overweight individuals each year who complete marathons. Now completing a marathon is damn impressive to me. However it shows that the aerobic fitness needed to complete a marathon doesn't have anything necessarily to do with creating a fat loss effect. So if you are capable of two to three hours of steady state running and still not be burning enough fat - we can either go to a higher intensity or you can try four hours of running. Any takers for the latter?
In terms of fat loss - calories burned are the most important factor. And aerobic training burns less calories than anaerobic training and weight training overall (besides doing very little to increase your metabolism -your body's calorie burning engine).
So if we accept that lean mass is a major factor in your fat burning engine - and aerobic training makes that engine smaller (i.e. less muscle) and more efficient at burning fat (remember more efficient means it burns LESS) - how can having a smaller more efficient fat burning machine burn more fat? It doesn't."

I recommend hard boxing workouts, that focus on anaerobic endurance. For running, do hill sprints and intervals, at higher intensities.
If you're serious about going to a certain weight, where you will still have excess body fat, you should look into weight training. With weights you can burn off fat, by increasing your lean mass, and thereby your metabolism. The other benefit of this is, that by increasing muscle, you'll be able to keep your weightup, even as you lose fat.

Chiro/Physio
08-16-2005, 01:28 PM
I appreciate your feedback. It is true of course that in the short term, anaerobic, glycolytic respiration/activity will burn more callories. However, the glycogen stores in your blood, muscles and liver will be deleted quickly.

Punchdrunk is absolutely right in terms of specificity of training methods.

If you check my response I was referring to the most specific way to burn fat as an energy source, outside of boxing specific training, and that moderate activity(aerobic) does have a crossover affect relative to boxing(in terms aerobic capacity and loss of body fat). I can find references, but looking at any good sports journal will help with your questions. I am a charterd Physio and a Doctor of Chiropractic btw Exig, just interested in the noble art.

Pooch
08-16-2005, 04:25 PM
thanks guys appreciate all your replys. So basically what your saying is that once i get my weight down though dieting, boxing training and cardio (at moment long distance running and swimming) and still have excess fat i should do higher intensity cardio workouts and weights, and this will achieve that ripped look,right?

PunchDrunk
08-16-2005, 05:03 PM
I appreciate your feedback. It is true of course that in the short term, anaerobic, glycolytic respiration/activity will burn more callories. However, the glycogen stores in your blood, muscles and liver will be deleted quickly.

Punchdrunk is absolutely right in terms of specificity of training methods.

If you check my response I was referring to the most specific way to burn fat as an energy source, outside of boxing specific training, and that moderate activity(aerobic) does have a crossover affect relative to boxing(in terms aerobic capacity and loss of body fat). I can find references, but looking at any good sports journal will help with your questions. I am a charterd Physio and a Doctor of Chiropractic btw Exig, just interested in the noble art.

How do you mean the glycogen stores will be depleted quickly? In terms of the specific training session? Or just in general?
In terms of the general training session, yes, that's the point. You burn more calories, faster. The real bonus, however, is that anaerobic activity boosts your metabolism for hours, AFTER your training session. This means you're burning calories, which results in fat loss, while you're on the couch at home.
In terms of in general, no. You will see a much bigger gain in glycogen stores, AND aerobic capacity. Have you ever heard of the Tabata Method? It's one of the most well respected studies of it's kind. Hit it up on google, you'll find plenty on it.

"Tabata Intervals consist of 20 seconds of maximum intensity exercise, followed by 10 seconds of rest. This cycle is repeated 8 times (for a total of 4-minutes). Although Dr. Tabata used a mechanically braked cycle ergometer, you can apply “Tabata Intervals” to several forms of exercise, such as hitting a heavy bag, sprinting, jumping rope, or fast paced bodyweight squats.

Your first reaction might be, “How effective can this protocol really be with just 4 minutes of exercise?”

Let me answer this question for you… VERY EFFECTIVE!

You will be amazed at how intense 4 minutes of exercise will feel. This form of training taxes both the anaerobic and aerobic energy systems. Tabata Intervals are excellent for those athletes who participate in high intensity sports such as boxing, MMA, or wrestling.

After just 6 weeks of testing, Dr. Tabata noted a 28% increase in anaerobic capacity along with a 14% increase in V02Max. The 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off interval system improved both the anaerobic and aerobic energy systems significantly. These results were witnessed by physically fit athletes. Many tests are conducted on deconditioned subjects, which makes the test results more difficult to evaluate. Dr. Tabata's test was much more effective, as it produced a positive response on individuals who were already in shape.

This form of training is also effective for fat loss. Tabata Intervals will raise your body’s metabolic rate long after the exercise session is completed. You will continue to burn fat throughout the day. Recent studies have shown that intense interval training will elevate the rate that your body burns calories by up to 142% more than low-intensity, continuous exercise."

In conclusion, anaerobic intervals have a better effect on aerobic capacity for boxing, AND burns more calories (and therefore fat!), than low intensity, aerobic work.

I have the outmost respect for Physio's, but your field of expertise is not training athletes unless they're injured. In fact,most of the physiotherapists I know of make a big mistake of thinking that rehabilitation type training, and athletic performance training are the same thing. For instance, you say aerobic activity has carry over to boxing. While this may technically be true, it is also true that the carry over is minimal. Boxing is basically anaerobic (especially amateur), the only use for aerobic capacity is between rounds. Guess what? If you do a specific boxing workout, which is ANAEROBIC INTERVALS, then you're working on exactly that. Aerobic excercise may have minimal carry over (ie. it's better to go running, than do nothing.), but it's a great waste of time. Time that could be spent on something that actually works.
I assume we can agree that cyclist Lance Armstrong is probably the most aeroblically fit man on the planet? Put him in a boxing ring for 4 rounds of 2 minutes, going all out, and he won't be able to stand up (and this is not because of getting hit, but because of the energy systems required for boxing).

Chiro/Physio
08-16-2005, 05:21 PM
I could spend some time analysing your reply. However, although I have said you are correct in your specificty of training principles and you have stated that 'While this may technically be true' on my statement. I get the feeling you want a fight, lol. Nice calm debate is good sometimes, thats boxing for you I suppose. All the best, just dont use google to research your theory and one paper does not make a proof.

PunchDrunk
08-17-2005, 02:17 AM
I'm not looking for a fight, I simply disagree with what you say about aerobic activity and fatloss. Aerobics as the best way to achieve fatloss is a training MYTH. :)

Also, I don't use google to research my theories, I merely suggested you look it up. The point is, they're not my theories, it's pretty much agreed upon in the world of sports science. Therefore I suggested some reading for you, and google IS the quickest easiest way you could find some of this data. :)

Again, I'm not disrespecting you, or looking for a fight, I just oppose your opinion, and nothing you have written so far makes me doubt that you're wrong.

Manny_P
08-17-2005, 02:30 AM
goddman!! Too many difficult english werdz Im dizzy!


question: Ey yo check it! I sprinted fo like 20-30 seconds goin up a hill and I noticed I sweated alot afta doin it. Is it healthy to sprint like that and then keep doin it afta a lil bit of rest?! Is that a fast way to lose fat? Springting?

PunchDrunk
08-17-2005, 02:49 AM
Yes it is a great way to lose fat and get in shape. You have to be careful you don't overdo it in the beginning though. You don't want injuries. Work your way into, it gradually. :)

=Junior=
08-17-2005, 04:25 AM
im a layman, please simplify or summarize for me.

muscles are heavier than fat,
you run and stuff so you burn fats and lose weight,
you gain weight by lifting weights for muscles,
you lose and gain.

was that right?

PunchDrunk
08-17-2005, 06:07 AM
im a layman, please simplify or summarize for me.

muscles are heavier than fat,
you run and stuff so you burn fats and lose weight,
you gain weight by lifting weights for muscles,
you lose and gain.

was that right?

Sort of. Extended aerobic work, like jogging/low intensity running, also makes you lose muscle.

Look at sprinters vs. marathon runners. Muscular vs. skinny.

It goes more like this:

Aerobic training - a bigger percentage of energy used comes from fat, BUT a lot less energy is used.

Anaerobic training - A smaller percentage of energy used comes from fat, BUT a lot MORE energy is used. AND your metabolism will be much higher AFTER your training, using this method, which means you'll be burning fat for hours after.

Fat loss is really a very simple question of burning more CALORIES than you take in. So you want to burn as many calories you can, during the time your training lasts.

If you train 20 minutes, train as hard as you can for those 20 minutes, you'll burn more calories.
Same goes for 30 min., 60 min., 2 hours etc...

Pooch
08-17-2005, 07:07 AM
so the conclusion is:

aerobic exercise = lose bodyWEIGHT (both fat and muscle)

anerobic exercise = lose bodyFAT

PunchDrunk
08-17-2005, 07:39 AM
so the conclusion is:

aerobic exercise = lose bodyWEIGHT (both fat and muscle)

anerobic exercise = lose bodyFAT

Pretty much, yeah.

Some experts have been saying that aerobic excercise might cause the fat to come back easier, but I don't think I have the energy to go into all that now... I'd rather spend my calories on something else. :D

Chiro/Physio
08-17-2005, 08:18 AM
"A typical boxing training session lasting 60 min causes a person to expend 2821 +/- 190 kJ x h(-1), the same amount of energy as someone running about 9 km in 60 min on the treadmill". (Med Sci Sports Exerc 1997; 29:1653-6.)

Research is great! isnt it. just how long does it take, punchdrunk, for your body to utilise fat as an energy source via oxidation? And can a boxer go 12 rounds using anaerobic/glycogen systems independently?

PunchDrunk
08-17-2005, 08:55 AM
"A typical boxing training session lasting 60 min causes a person to expend 2821 +/- 190 kJ x h(-1), the same amount of energy as someone running about 9 km in 60 min on the treadmill". (Med Sci Sports Exerc 1997; 29:1653-6.)

Research is great! isnt it. just how long does it take, punchdrunk, for your body to utilise fat as an energy source via oxidation? And can a boxer go 12 rounds using anaerobic/glycogen systems independently?

The difference between a "typical boxing session" and running 9 km, is that in a boxing session a lot of that time is actually spent resting in between rounds (or intervals). Running is one continuous motion. In a boxing session, you work at higher intensity, then rest. What does this mean? First of all, carry over to an actual fight is nearly 100%.
Would you propose that someone who's training regimen only consists of 9 km of running, will be in as good shape (for boxing) as someone who does intense boxing training and no running?
Second, it means that, beecause of the higher intensity of training, your metabolism will burn more calories AFTER training is done.
Third, you don't lose muscle mass doing this type of workout, as you surely will, if you run 9km everyday. More muscle means more calories needed in your body, which in the end means more fat loss.

The first question, maybe you can give me the answer to?
The answer to the second question is that a boxer wouldn't make it past the first round, if all he does is run. On a more serious note, of course the aerobic system is involved, but if you read my previous posts, you'd know that the carry over from anaerobic->aerobic capacity is BY FAR greater than the other way around.
Like I said, I'm not trying to get in a fight, or disrespect you, so there's no need for the sarcasm. :)

Chiro/Physio
08-17-2005, 03:52 PM
No saracasm intended sorry if you interperted it that way. I think we are at crossed wires here though. I am glad to see that you take a research/evidence base to your approach. the article was meant to highlight how reliability and validity of reserch studies must be scrutinsed closely. The study was pants anyhow (oohps).

Peer reviwed data bases such as BIDS MEDLINE EMBASE, should give you the information you need to help formulate your training regiems'. Would be worth it to you if you are not there already. Do filter closely though, good luck:).

Answer: My point, my new sparring partner. Aerobic respiration works along side anaerobic repiration all the time! Therfore, you bias the system to your specific activity or requirement (anaerobic 12 x 3 mins), but one does aid the other (why not let the anaerob give you a hand?). And the longer you go in a fight the more you are glycogen depleted, hence the oxidative system helps out.

Summary:
BTW I did not say necessarily run every day. Aerobic training interval or continuous does have benefits for boxing. As a first phase preporation pre fight or as an adjunct to anaerobic 3 min rounds.:) :)))

PunchDrunk
08-17-2005, 04:24 PM
I agree with everything you say in that post. However, I still think aerobic excercise is inferior to anaerobic, when it comes to fat loss.
There's always room for disagreement though. Props for being cool about it. :)

Chiro/Physio
08-17-2005, 05:06 PM
Hey NP, this discussion helps every body, you certainly have prompted me in to updating my knowledge. If yo can do 3 x the Tabata 12 min protocol, one after the other, you should be fit for a 12 rounder (lol) and wahts more no need to do sub-maximal training, and 'YOU WILL BE A MAN MY SON' Was that Wordworth?. Any more tabata stuff would be grateful for a peak. :)

Chiro/Physio
08-17-2005, 05:09 PM
Oh shi#t, forgot to ask how you rate Nigel B, he did lots of running in Tenerife I hear, If he only knew...............(lol)

PunchDrunk
08-18-2005, 02:53 AM
Hey NP, this discussion helps every body, you certainly have prompted me in to updating my knowledge. If yo can do 3 x the Tabata 12 min protocol, one after the other, you should be fit for a 12 rounder (lol) and wahts more no need to do sub-maximal training, and 'YOU WILL BE A MAN MY SON' Was that Wordworth?. Any more tabata stuff would be grateful for a peak. :)

Check out the Guerilla Cardio thread on here. :)

PunchDrunk
08-18-2005, 02:59 AM
Oh shi#t, forgot to ask how you rate Nigel B, he did lots of running in Tenerife I hear, If he only knew...............(lol)

I was in training camp in Tenerife this past February. Did some running myself. :) Running is okay during certain phases, but it's vastly overrated. Intervals and sprints are a different story of course.

Oh, keep in mind, I train amateurs. 4x2 is a lot different than 12x3. And most boxers, even pro's never get to fight 12x3, seeing as it's only for title fights.

The Dark Destroyer was a great fighter. England should count themselves lucky to have had THREE great fighters at the same weight, at the same time. Benn, Eubank and Watson. Great fighters, great fights. :)

PunchDrunk
08-25-2005, 02:14 AM
I just found this comment on low intensity training's effect on fat loss, compared to high intensity and weight lifting. These are his experiences with going from lifting weights to triathlon:
"I noted, like several other former lifters who've moved into endurance events, that my body fat went up. True, I lost weight, but my body fat percentage went up, which led me to believe that a high carbohydrate endurance diet mixed with an enormous volume of low intensity training doesn't lead to fat loss, but "merely" weight loss. The numbers didn't lie."

Which goes along quite nicely with what I've been saying. You'll experience muscluar atrophy, but it won't necessarily do any good for fat loss.

lovelylass69
08-25-2005, 06:07 PM
eat only vegetables and drink only water

PunchDrunk
08-26-2005, 02:52 AM
eat only vegetables and drink only water
That would be a bad idea.