View Full Version : Ali overated??? i dont think so...


Heckler
12-10-2004, 09:34 AM
Looking through these forums i have noticed various posts stating that Muhammad Ali is overrated and would be beaten by the likes of Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, and Mike Tyson.

I thought i would give my opinion on the matter

Ali was not overrated. In His prime Ali was extremely quick and had excellent footwork, however in my opinion these were not his greatest assets, I think his greatest assets were his ability to absorb punishment.... he had a good chin, good stamina and could take a lot of punishment as shown Against George Foreman(one of the most powerful Punchers in boxing history). His other great asset was his brain... Ali was an extremley smart boxer, he had the ability to adapt to any style, find the weakness of his opponents and systematically break them down as shown against Foreman. After Ali's 3 year absence from the boxing world he had lost alot of the speed in his punching and footwork and could no longer dance around the ring as effectivley as prior to his boxing ban. He was able to soley rely on his ability to absorb punishment and his brain to defeat such formidable opponents as George Foreman and Joe Frazier. He was not technically the best boxer.... far from it, BUT he was able to overcome this with the speed he posessed in his prime, his ability to absorb punishment and his ringsmarts

I believe Ali in his Prime would beat the 3 boxers mentioned previously, not easily however.

His Fight record to me is more impressive then these other 3. He defeated 3 of the all time greats Liston, Foreman, Frazier.

roXy graziano
12-10-2004, 10:16 AM
here's my deal on Ali : like you said, he wasn't technically the best boxer. The things you've mentioned that supposedly make him stand out (ability to take punishment for example) isn't entirely unique. What makes Ali truly stand out among all other fighters? People always seem to think he was the best

If we all got to see our fantasy fights I'd see Marciano and Ali and I'm sure Marciano would win. I've heard people say Tyson could beat Ali and I don't agree with that. I don't know about me brown bomber but that would be sweet to see together :D

No doubt Ali was a great fighter but I do think he was (is) overrated and definetely don't think he was the greatest fighter of all time as so many people do. I will give you that he was a smart fighter, fast, and could take a beating and come back but like I said he's not the only one and that doesn't make him stand out

rrr I guess I'll get some negative feedback for this :cool:

Hunna
12-10-2004, 11:25 AM
NO WAY! Ali style defied all boxing technique and would have caused a headache for traditional boxing trainers. Look at the opponents he fought and beat, theres no way hes overrated. Ali did get alot of publicity due to his antics, plus he was a hero and role model for people worldwide.

Mr. Violence
12-10-2004, 12:06 PM
Ali was like the Michael Jordan of boxing. He possessed natural athletic gifts and skills to allow him to break many rules of tradition. In my book he truly was the greatest. This coming from a guy who had my doubts until I went back and studied the history of Ali and compared his history to the other greats.

The1God
12-10-2004, 12:29 PM
I think Ali was great in his era. I have watched him over the years. He is definately great, but the best that ever lived... I have to disagree. Like Holmes, he had the championship for a loooooong time... So he was the best of his era. You really have to seperate them into different times. When it was Ali's day, he was the greatest. When it was Tyson's time, he was the greatest. I am not taking anything away from him, his mouth helped him get his status as well. If he had a peresonality like the "Quietman" I don't think people would talk about him as theyt do now. Please don't flame me!

grayfist
12-10-2004, 01:22 PM
Ali's hyperbole got him over-rated. When he said he was "THE GREATEST" ( and, though he never added EVER, he never said he didn't mean EVER), he laid himself open to such criticism.

Ali was good; perhaps, ONE OF THE GREATEST FIGHERS. But people who put other names in the mix OF FIGHTERS AS FIGHTERS will have as good an arguement as he who brings up Ali's. :o :)

It is generally conceded, though, that no one did for the popularity of the sport as did Ali. And, no sports figure has crossed-over to the popular imagination better AND MORE than Ali.

No one can ever be Ali other than Ali.:)

Great
12-10-2004, 03:02 PM
One word - Greatest.

cms
12-10-2004, 06:12 PM
ali is not the greatest but is not overrated neither he may have had the greatest mind of all time in boxing though

Heckler
12-10-2004, 07:11 PM
here's my deal on Ali : like you said, he wasn't technically the best boxer. The things you've mentioned that supposedly make him stand out (ability to take punishment for example) isn't entirely unique. What makes Ali truly stand out among all other fighters? People always seem to think he was the best

If we all got to see our fantasy fights I'd see Marciano and Ali and I'm sure Marciano would win. I've heard people say Tyson could beat Ali and I don't agree with that. I don't know about me brown bomber but that would be sweet to see together :D

No doubt Ali was a great fighter but I do think he was (is) overrated and definetely don't think he was the greatest fighter of all time as so many people do. I will give you that he was a smart fighter, fast, and could take a beating and come back but like I said he's not the only one and that doesn't make him stand out

rrr I guess I'll get some negative feedback for this :cool:

What made Ali stand out from the rest was his Ring smarts which were superior to any boxer in history. Against Marciano I think Ali would win, On points however. Ali would find too many ways to adapt and neutralize Marciano. In his prime his footwork and Hand speed were far superior. Marciano would have trouble with Ali's unorthodox style, He would have trouble landing punches as Ali danced around the ring and used his unorthodox defense(leaning back from the waist). Marciano was renowned for cutting easily, Ali would keep his distance bring his quick jab into play, Marcianos face would be turned into Mincemeatand Ali would inevitably win on points.

Mr. Violence
12-10-2004, 07:17 PM
What made Ali stand out from the rest was his Ring smarts which were superior to any boxer in history. Against Marciano I think Ali would win, On points however. Ali would find too many ways to adapt and neutralize Marciano. In his prime his footwork and Hand speed were far superior. Marciano would have trouble with Ali's unorthodox style, He would have trouble landing punches as Ali danced around the ring and used his unorthodox defense(leaning back from the waist). Marciano was renowned for cutting easily, Ali would keep his distance bring his quick jab into play, Marcianos face would be turned into Mincemeatand Ali would inevitably win on points.



ali vs. marciano would be almost a carbon copy of his fights with frazier, with ali coming out on top everytime by decision. i dont think he can ko marciano but he could stop him on cuts.

roXy graziano
12-10-2004, 07:56 PM
I never said he wasn't a brilliant fighter, like someone else in this thread said no one could be ali but ali but I think a lot of people have him overrated on other measures, like I mentioned being able to take a beating and coming back, or footwork and speed - these are things that don't make him entirely stand out and things that get overrated

he was a brilliant fighter for sure I just don't think he was the most outright skilled of all fighters like some hold him up to be.

Heckler
12-10-2004, 08:27 PM
I never said he wasn't a brilliant fighter, like someone else in this thread said no one could be ali but ali but I think a lot of people have him overrated on other measures, like I mentioned being able to take a beating and coming back, or footwork and speed - these are things that don't make him entirely stand out and things that get overrated

he was a brilliant fighter for sure I just don't think he was the most outright skilled of all fighters like some hold him up to be.

The overrating of Ali is when the isolation these qualities occurs eg. his speed. It was a combination of these various things that made him STAND OUT, he was not the most outright skilled but he overcome this with other qualities eg. His mind which he used to adapt, and in my opinion this made him the greatest boxer of all time.

Fat Shamz
12-10-2004, 09:07 PM
I am a HUGE ali fan. walk into my room and u see 4 posters, 3 videos, many stickers, lotsa other small itty gritty things...
but i must say this
Ali set the tables for ALL of the boxers that followed
he showed everyone how important it was to have speed, stamina, power, brains, footwork, technique, ability to take punishment, to not give up...
he at some point in his career possesed EVERY trait needed for a good boxer
He is not overated, he is discussed alot, and why not? this guy showed the world wat u need to be the greatest...

Fat Shamz
12-10-2004, 09:09 PM
I never said he wasn't a brilliant fighter, like someone else in this thread said no one could be ali but ali but I think a lot of people have him overrated on other measures, like I mentioned being able to take a beating and coming back, or footwork and speed - these are things that don't make him entirely stand out and things that get overrated

he was a brilliant fighter for sure I just don't think he was the most outright skilled of all fighters like some hold him up to be.

then who was the greatest fighter ?

DarthJul
12-10-2004, 09:22 PM
just look at his opponents. Ali was never beaten in his prime, except for Frazier & Norton (but that were close matches). He beat foreman, a guy who was still champion in the nineties.

Kid Achilles
12-10-2004, 10:34 PM
<<ali vs. marciano would be almost a carbon copy of his fights with frazier, with ali coming out on top everytime by decision. i dont think he can ko marciano but he could stop him on cuts.>>

You use Frazier for a comparison yet Frazier beat Ali the first time and nearly killed him the third time, even though Joe did lose that one. Frazier was one of Ali's toughest opponents, and Ali certainly never had an easy time with him.

Marciano possessed every quality Frazier had, with the addition of knockout power with both hands (Frazier just had the left hook), so I don't see how you can't give the Rock at least a decent chance of beating Ali. Also Ali had a habit of just leaning back slightly to escape his opponents punches which could possibly play into Marciano's penchant for lunging straight forward. He has been called a slow heavyweight but have you ever seen the punch that KO'ed Walcott? That was some fast, tight ****!

Bottom line, a fight with Marciano was hell on anyone. There isn't a fighter that existed who would have had an easy time with the Rock.

Heckler
12-10-2004, 11:04 PM
Marciano DID NOT posess the handspeed of Joe Frazier nor Joes ability to cut of the ring and isolate Ali, this is why Ali would beat him. Ali beat frazier twice... the third they both nearly killed eachother. But as i see it Ali beat a similar fighter 2/3 times a fighter i believe to be more skilled then marciano. I never stated that marciano wouldnt have a chance, but i believe it's probable that marciano would not be able to beat Ali in his prime... a man with so much speed, agility, heart, ability to take massive punishment and the ringsmarts to go with it.

kadyo
12-10-2004, 11:22 PM
Ali was like the Michael Jordan of boxing. He possessed natural athletic gifts and skills to allow him to break many rules of tradition. In my book he truly was the greatest. This coming from a guy who had my doubts until I went back and studied the history of Ali and compared his history to the other greats.

Right on Johnny! Ali beating Foreman showed why he is the greatest boxer of all time. Rope a dope has been adopted not only by other boxers, but by several other disciplines that has nothing to do with fighting. Ali's style transcend boxing and there lies his greatness.

dempseyfire
12-11-2004, 12:47 AM
ali vs. marciano would be almost a carbon copy of his fights with frazier, with ali coming out on top everytime by decision. i dont think he can ko marciano but he could stop him on cuts.

Umm Frazier kicked his ass that first fight, and in that fight both fighters were closest to their primes (and there's a good argument that Ali deserved no more then a draw in their rematch).

I believe Ali is a surefire top 5 HW of all time, probably top 3, but he's not the greatest. During his first reign his quality of opposition was not very good (an injured Patterson, very dodgy fights with Liston, a shot (literally) Cleveland Williams). However, he demonstrated dominance and great athleticism and beautiful ring generalship in all these fights. In the 70s he further proved his greatness by beating a slew of dangerous guys (Quarry, Bonavena, Foreman, Shavers) but got gifts against Young, Norton, and arguably Frazier. Great fighter but the myth has overrode fact in many instances . . .

BodysnatcherFan
12-12-2004, 10:00 AM
Ali would destroy Dempsey.

BodysnatcherFan
12-12-2004, 10:01 AM
Umm Frazier kicked his ass that first fight, and in that fight both fighters were closest to their primes (and there's a good argument that Ali deserved no more then a draw in their rematch).

I believe Ali is a surefire top 5 HW of all time, probably top 3, but he's not the greatest. During his first reign his quality of opposition was not very good (an injured Patterson, very dodgy fights with Liston, a shot (literally) Cleveland Williams). However, he demonstrated dominance and great athleticism and beautiful ring generalship in all these fights. In the 70s he further proved his greatness by beating a slew of dangerous guys (Quarry, Bonavena, Foreman, Shavers) but got gifts against Young, Norton, and arguably Frazier. Great fighter but the myth has overrode fact in many instances . . .
You are crazy. Ali was close to his prime? Nowhere near. The layoff did terrible for Ali. In his prime he would have cut Joe to ribbons.

BodysnatcherFan
12-12-2004, 10:02 AM
Anything after the ban on him fighting is irrelevent its just like a line anything afterwards is irrelevent.

gogan
12-14-2004, 10:59 AM
HA HA HA HA HA you have no clue what your talking about. Ali destroyed the fast, the small, the big and the tall. you go agaist someone like george foreman and not worry at all, jump in the ring and come out a winner. then tell me your not the greatest thing that ever happenend to boxing. if he`s not standing alone in 1st place he`s at least tied for 1st with someone else.

dino
12-15-2004, 07:40 PM
Looking through these forums i have noticed various posts stating that Muhammad Ali is overrated and would be beaten by the likes of Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, and Mike Tyson.

I thought i would give my opinion on the matter

Ali was not overrated. In His prime Ali was extremely quick and had excellent footwork, however in my opinion these were not his greatest assets, I think his greatest assets were his ability to absorb punishment.... he had a good chin, good stamina and could take a lot of punishment as shown Against George Foreman(one of the most powerful Punchers in boxing history). His other great asset was his brain... Ali was an extremley smart boxer, he had the ability to adapt to any style, find the weakness of his opponents and systematically break them down as shown against Foreman. After Ali's 3 year absence from the boxing world he had lost alot of the speed in his punching and footwork and could no longer dance around the ring as effectivley as prior to his boxing ban. He was able to soley rely on his ability to absorb punishment and his brain to defeat such formidable opponents as George Foreman and Joe Frazier. He was not technically the best boxer.... far from it, BUT he was able to overcome this with the speed he posessed in his prime, his ability to absorb punishment and his ringsmarts

I believe Ali in his Prime would beat the 3 boxers mentioned previously, not easily however.

His Fight record to me is more impressive then these other 3. He defeated 3 of the all time greats Liston, Foreman, Frazier.


frazier style was perfeclty for ali or anybody whos tall and can jab to beat..if ali fought foreman 5 times he would only win once..and liston wasnt that good

K-Yo
12-15-2004, 07:51 PM
ali was simply too smart in his prime to get beat by these guys. im not saying it wouldnt happen, but the fights would certainly be intrestig. you have to remember that no one in the heavyweight ever had movement like tyson in his prime, so that would be an amazing fight, and lewis has one of the best jabs in boxing history so that would also be a great fight.

the only way you can check the outcome is to watch a cpu vs cpu fight on fight night ;)

Boxer2005
12-15-2004, 10:40 PM
I think Ali is overrated. I saw some of his fights and was not impresses at all.

cple
12-16-2004, 01:59 PM
frazier style was perfeclty for ali or anybody whos tall and can jab to beat..if ali fought foreman 5 times he would only win once..and liston wasnt that good

I think Ali beats Foreman every time they fight. A prime Foreman didn't know how to conserve his energy. He blows his load after 4 or 5 rounds. Ali would use this to advantage. Also, after his loss to Foreman, his mind was pretty much messed up. I can't begin to imagine the mental beating Foreman would recieve.

And Liston wasn't that good? Is that why nearly everyone at the time thought he was unbeatable in his prime? He was simply destroying everyone in his path. Though i don't rank Liston too highly in the all-time heavyweight rankings, i do rate him highly in a who-beats-who list. Liston would've beaten a lot of the heavyweights of the past and everyone today.

hambone
12-28-2004, 05:01 PM
I just recently watched a frazier vs. ali fight again. I was amazed at what those boxers gave for 15 rounds. Ali was great. can any boxer today meet that standard as far as boxings skills go ? Could any of the boxers today beat him ? Who knows. Maybe some the bigger boxers.

Xecutioner
12-28-2004, 07:03 PM
i dont think ali/marciano would look like ali/frazier . besides the fact that both men came forward frazier was much more difficult to hit, more skilled, bigger, faster and more suited to fight ali imo. joe had just as much stamina as marciano. who had the better chin wouldnt even matter, neither guys would get koed by ali. if i were to build a fighter to beat any version of ali it would be a prime joe frazier. id take prime frazier over prime ali (exTREMELY close), but i wouldnt take prime marciano over prime ali.

no other heavyweights resume can even come close to touching alis. he fought all fighters and all styles, ducked no one. beat not one but two so called "invincible" men (liston, foreman). got the best of a guy built to destory his style (frazier) . thats the peak of his accomplishments, between them tons of tough competition. put any other heavyweight through this murderous row of competition and lets see how many W's and L's they come out with . every knows in boxing match ups are everything, and even when ali fought against someone who had a bad style for him he was still very competitive.

Ivansmamma
12-28-2004, 08:00 PM
Ali beat Liston, Frazier, Foreman and Patterson. Ali had great speed, footwork, reflexes, chin and heart. Ali made a comeback and became champion again after being banned from fighting for three years in what would have been his prime. Ali beat fighters long after his prime and became a three time world champion. Ali is not overrated, he's the greatest heavyweight of all time.

M26
12-29-2004, 02:48 PM
Muhammad Ali was incredible. At his prime, he was damn near unbeatable. When he came back, he was clearly fading, but still managed to become champion again in what was the best era in heavyweight history. If one is to rate the greatest heavyweight based on the quality of his foes, Ali would have to be the greatest.

However, I would rate Joe Louis as the greatest heavyweight of all time. He had the tools to defeat Ali in my book, and his twelve-year reign with 25 defences makes him my number one.

When it comes to Marciano, Ali would be a slight favorite. But Marciano would give Ali hell! UD.

Mike Tyson would get knocked out by Ali. He was fast and strong, but lacked heart. Ali would take Tysons best shots, tie him up and frustrate him. A tired Tyson sucks canvas inside of ten rounds.

My top five list of heavyweights: Louis, Ali, Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney.

Mick Hucknall
01-07-2005, 09:12 AM
Ali is the greatest fighter of all time and yous who say Tyson and Marciana cold beat him are talking Bull****.

jabberwalkin
01-07-2005, 11:11 AM
The problem with any hypothetical discussion of any 'greatest' distinction, when it comes to Ali, is that it is not all about boxing per se. What seperates Ali from all worthy company is his trancendance of the ring. Ali was not merely a boxer, he was an icon - a culture unto himself.
Not even Ali's own heros - Jack Johnson, Sugar Ray Robinson - were able to do this. In an era charged with racial tension, Ali dared to avoid the pitfall of being every white man's favorite 'colored' fighter.
As deftly as he avoided Liston's haymakers, Ali slipped, jabbed, then crossed out any foolish notion that he would ever be saddled with the 'credit-to-his-racism' that was the the blue plate special fare for Black fighters of his generation. And, he did it with artistry. He milked white America's overall disdain for him into multi-million dollar purses - a thing that no boxer before, black or white, had ever done. He drew the world into boxing as no one else had done before - people who had never before watched a boxing match payed thousand to see Ali weave his magic.
These are only elements of what made Ali 'The Greatest.' In a world of intangibles, no one should ever dispute Ali's superlative abilitiy - a mix of grace, speed and lightening. But even in his decline he had the heart of a lion. Tyson, just as in the case of his archetype Listion, was really no more than a heartless thug... a schoolyard bully to be chastized.
Where Tyson was blessed with a line of knocked-out-by-hype falls guys, Ali faced down Liston, Quarry, Norton (four rounds with a broken jaw!), Shavers, Frazier, and Big George. Ali didn't need Cus D. to learn how to to fear into fire and ice.
Whether on or off his game Ali was 'The Greatest'. Neither offence nor apology given to the Marciano, Louis, ect. faithful... these are simply the facts.

- Evil -
01-07-2005, 01:48 PM
Ali is the greatest fighter of all time and yous who say Tyson and Marciana cold beat him are talking Bull****.

I dont normally talk about the older fighters because there's no way of proving your right, there careers are done and thats the end of it.

But this time i'll make an exception because IMO Tyson and Marciano would have beaten on Ali.

Mick Hucknall
01-07-2005, 01:59 PM
suppose were all entitled to our own opinions. But yours is a pretty ****ty opinion

- Evil -
01-07-2005, 03:07 PM
suppose were all entitled to our own opinions. But yours is a pretty ****ty opinion

Your right Ali would beat Tyson and Marciano :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/sport/boxing/images/boxing_alicooper.jpg

jabberwalkin
01-07-2005, 07:33 PM
Let's assume the young Cassius Clay, whom Liston literaly could not touch, never existed. Start with the mature, oh yes slower, Ali who dealt with the likes of Kenny Norton, Joe Frazier and Big George Foreman. Tyson never had to deal with the likes of those warriors.
No one ever gave Ali a chance against Liston. No one ever gave him a chance against Foreman - not so much as a snowflake in hell. The plain fact is that Ali learned from defeat in the ring. He was never defeated in his heart or his mind. Tyson never revovered from being beaten the first time in Tokyo by a bum. That bum had heart and a stiff jab. Now that is a combination Tyson has never recovered from.
Frankly, while I insist Ali would have easily dispatched Tyson, I also say that Marciano would have spanked Mike with pure heart. And while I still believe Ali would have outpointed Marciano (not knock him out) I wouldn't give you 20-1 odds on it. Even money plus maybe a nickle. The reality is that Marciano, who never fought at more than 180 campaigned in the heavyweight division, was a freak of nature. I say that with the utmost of admiration for the man. I remember someone saying that it should have been physically impossible for a man of Tyson's stature to hit as hard as he did. How much truer this had to be about Marciano! A beautiful freak of nature totally lacking in the deficits of Tyson.
That said, and this is where we get back to Ali, 'The Greatest' would pick and choose where to trade with Marciano. Look at Ali's record book and name another fighter with a better chin.

- Evil -
01-07-2005, 08:14 PM
Let's assume the young Cassius Clay, whom Liston literaly could not touch, never existed. Start with the mature, oh yes slower, Ali who dealt with the likes of Kenny Norton, Joe Frazier and Big George Foreman. Tyson never had to deal with the likes of those warriors.
No one ever gave Ali a chance against Liston. No one ever gave him a chance against Foreman - not so much as a snowflake in hell. The plain fact is that Ali learned from defeat in the ring. He was never defeated in his heart or his mind. Tyson never revovered from being beaten the first time in Tokyo by a bum. That bum had heart and a stiff jab. Now that is a combination Tyson has never recovered from.
Frankly, while I insist Ali would have easily dispatched Tyson, I also say that Marciano would have spanked Mike with pure heart. And while I still believe Ali would have outpointed Marciano (not knock him out) I wouldn't give you 20-1 odds on it. Even money plus maybe a nickle. The reality is that Marciano, who never fought at more than 180 campaigned in the heavyweight division, was a freak of nature. I say that with the utmost of admiration for the man. I remember someone saying that it should have been physically impossible for a man of Tyson's stature to hit as hard as he did. How much truer this had to be about Marciano! A beautiful freak of nature totally lacking in the deficits of Tyson.
That said, and this is where we get back to Ali, 'The Greatest' would pick and choose where to trade with Marciano. Look at Ali's record book and name another fighter with a better chin.

The problem we have with these debates is everyone's guessing who's era was better, IMO Tyson and Marciano would have beaten Ali.

Although you make some good point its me picking a fight on styles and physical ability, I may be wrong but there's just as much chance of you getting it wrong.

There's one thing i'm 100% certain on, Ali wasnt the greatest boxer of all time. I grew up being told by people he was the greatest, even by people who have never seen him fight but when i watch him i can only think one thing = overated!!

Floydmayweather
01-07-2005, 09:05 PM
Ali is overrated. Ha, he beat Liston, Frasier, Ken Norton, Foreman, and leon spinks as an old man. Even in defeat he was in the fight. If you think he is overrated name one heavyweight figther in history who could take the punishment he took from Foreman and then still knock him out. Get real

Floydmayweather
01-07-2005, 09:07 PM
and one more thing Marciano would get killed by Ali and Tyson that is a laugh. he could not Ko Ali if foreman could not he would lose gas and get koed.

wmute
01-08-2005, 03:57 AM
Overrated?

if ppl think he is the greatest boxer of all time, yes

if ppl think he is the greatest HW of all time, no

i am cool with who thinks marciano would win vs ali (yet I don't agree), but... tyson?!?!? get real!

Ali stopped 2 of the most intimidating hard hitting fighters in HW history when noone gave him a chance... and in 74 he was well past his prime

big punchers (moreso when they are bullies) are often perceived to be unbeatable, and until they meet their master and their career is ruined for years or ended

Ali was the master for 2 of them

- Evil -
01-08-2005, 09:14 AM
Ali is overrated. Ha, he beat Liston, Frasier, Ken Norton, Foreman, and leon spinks as an old man. Even in defeat he was in the fight. If you think he is overrated name one heavyweight figther in history who could take the punishment he took from Foreman and then still knock him out. Get real

Get real yourself!

Ali is regarded the greatest boxer by people who have never seen him fight, its the Ali hype that was the greatest.

I'm not saying Ali was bad, i admit the guy had ability but the best boxers ever :confused:

- Evil -
01-08-2005, 09:19 AM
Overrated?

if ppl think he is the greatest boxer of all time, yes

if ppl think he is the greatest HW of all time, no

i am cool with who thinks marciano would win vs ali (yet I don't agree), but... tyson?!?!? get real!

Ali stopped 2 of the most intimidating hard hitting fighters in HW history when noone gave him a chance... and in 74 he was well past his prime

big punchers (moreso when they are bullies) are often perceived to be unbeatable, and until they meet their master and their career is ruined for years or ended

Ali was the master for 2 of them

This is an arguement no one will win, there isnt much point in it.

IMO prime Tyson had the phsyical abilitys to beat any heavyweight ever, he's obviously beatable but i'd make him a favourite over Ali. You think different so lets agree to disagree because there's no chance of us ever being proved right.

jabberwalkin
01-08-2005, 09:41 AM
To say that Tyson would have knocked out Ali has to be based reality in order for there to be truth to the assumption. I say there is no truth to the assumption. You say it's all about styles and ability - you are right in saying so. But, as I suggested already (in so many words), style and ability will carry you only so far.
Let's review my comparison of Marciano and Tyson: 'Iron Mike' had vastly superior ability and strength to Marciano. But the truth that time revealed was that Tyson was vastly inferior to the Rock in heart. The Rock, on the other hand was pretty well bereft of technical skill - an almost 'styleless' fighter. Yet heart was the essence of his style. That's why I believe that even Marciano could have beaten Tyson.
The *****s in Tyson's armor were evident early whenever he faced an opponent who did two things; refuse to cower from him and stick a stiff jab in his face. There was one notable fight in the late 80s that demonstrated this point. The name of the fighter escapes me, such was the state of the heavyweight division of the first part of the Tyson era (other than Spinks and Holmes - I dare you to call to mind any decent heavyweight he faced). But he kept Tyson at bay for eleven rounds or so. Tyson luckily (most would say it was only a matter of time) caught him.
Then came Razor Ruddick, who had all the heart in the world but was somewhat lacking in ring intellect yet over endowed with a suspect chin. When hit hard by Tyson, he didn't have the sense to hang onto Tyson. But bless his soul, he further exposed Mike's weakness. Next stop James Buster Douglas - a gifted fighter who, despite those ample gifts, was nonetheless a 'bum.' But, oh what a bum!
All Buster needed was a cause and a need to honor his late mother. He dismantled Tyson that night in Tokyo. It was as if God wanted to make a point. For that one night James Buster Douglas was the total package and not the bum. Don't bother mentioning the 'long count' issues - those went both ways. One ought only to count the 'long'-term effect on Tyson. The 'king' was revealed in his new suit of clothes and oh, what a naked sight it was!
Tyson was destroyed by one defeat. It was like Humpty Dumpty and all the king's horses - well you know the rest..
All of the truly great fighters were forged into hardened steel by their defeats and setbacks. Tyson, sadly for him, never ever did. Go talk to Evander who knows the heart of Tyson as well as anyone who's ever faced him in the ring could.
Ali was a total package in and out of the ring. When you talk about eras, to some extent it helps to have actually lived through them. In my own case I grew up wactching the strange and mystical alchemist Ali recreate the world through boxing - he was a man of his time.
Finally, regarding the question of who beats who, the reason Ali is a sure bet in a battle against Tyson is precisely the fact that he faced every other big hitter - Liston, Frazier, Foreman and figured out how to beat them. Note this please: At the time, no one gave him a chance to beat each of these. Ali was able, intuitively, to decipher the divide between myth and legend. Ali was the embodiment of capital 'L' Legend - Tyson's 'Baddest Man on the Planet', in the end was no more than a transparent myth. I'll say it again, one has to carefully measure the intangibles - because the measure of a man's greatness is far more than physical strength and ability. Without heart and soul those are nothing. One can only guess at how many gifted bums panhandle the streets of NYC - every one of them has a hard-luck story to tell - it is in the end, the Naked City.

- Evil -
01-08-2005, 10:14 AM
I conisder the fact i wasnt around in the Ali era to be an advantage because my opinons are formed from his fights and not his hype. Although i was alive during the Tyson era i still wasnt old enough to see the hype and my judgements are made only on his fights.

You mention the Liston fights but there's huge debate if the wins where fixed, IMO they cant be taken into account when talking up Ali's career.

Frasier- Ali was beaten by Frasier when they first fought, Ali did learn to beat the man but it was a learning progress.

It was also a learning progress against Norton.

And the rope a dope was a great plan, get beaten up and hope your opponent gets tired!! :confused: Foreman beat himself.

There's always the risk of Tyson fragile mind losing a fight for him, and i dont think its an impossible fight for Ali but i'd favour Tyson to win.

It just an opinion, we willl never know if i'm right or wrong.

P.s. your comment about Tyson having far superiour strength to Marciano is up for debabte, not a debate i'd take part in but Marciano is known as a freak in term of strength.

jabberwalkin
01-08-2005, 10:17 AM
Right on Johnny! Ali beating Foreman showed why he is the greatest boxer of all time. Rope a dope has been adopted not only by other boxers, but by several other disciplines that has nothing to do with fighting. Ali's style transcend boxing and there lies his greatness.

Actually Johnny, it's the other way round - Jordon was the Ali of basketball. This isn't one of those Chicken/egg questions. Just history. Ali came first.

jabberwalkin
01-08-2005, 10:36 AM
Actually, it was one of Tyson's handlers who made the comment about it being imppossible for him to hit as hard as he did. And yes, Marciano at 175 lbs, was, as I said, a beautiful freak of nature. Roberto Duran was called 'Fists of Stone' - when Marciano swung his hands were 5 lb sledgehammers. I marvelled at the famous Jersey Joe Walcott photo shot when I was ten.
But I reiterate, Tyson for better or worse has the mind of a schoolyard bully. stand up to him and he ain't never the same. That, my friend is inescapable.
On the Liston thing: Watch the the Clay-Liston fight tapes and tell me if Liston looked like a guy on a paid date with the canvas. He was trying to take Ali's head off. When he couldn't he quit.
On the issue of living through the era: It wasn't the hype. Ali, in phase one of his career, was poetry in motion. No one had ever seen such speed and agility in the heaveyweight division.
And it is witnessing what he accomplished with diminished skills that seals the deal on Ali's stature.
I've seen 40+ years of boxing history go by - I've come to know the difference between hype, hope and heros. Ali was and is the latter - he is 'The Greatest.'

MGG
01-08-2005, 10:58 AM
Ali was not overated, just overhyped. :)
Ali was in too many fantastic battles with the best in his division.

Mick Hucknall
01-08-2005, 12:48 PM
Actually, it was one of Tyson's handlers who made the comment about it being imppossible for him to hit as hard as he did. And yes, Marciano at 175 lbs, was, as I said, a beautiful freak of nature. Roberto Duran was called 'Fists of Stone' - when Marciano swung his hands were 5 lb sledgehammers. I marvelled at the famous Jersey Joe Walcott photo shot when I was ten.
But I reiterate, Tyson for better or worse has the mind of a schoolyard bully. stand up to him and he ain't never the same. That, my friend is inescapable.
On the Liston thing: Watch the the Clay-Liston fight tapes and tell me if Liston looked like a guy on a paid date with the canvas. He was trying to take Ali's head off. When he couldn't he quit.
On the issue of living through the era: It wasn't the hype. Ali, in phase one of his career, was poetry in motion. No one had ever seen such speed and agility in the heaveyweight division.
And it is witnessing what he accomplished with diminished skills that seals the deal on Ali's stature.
I've seen 40+ years of boxing history go by - I've come to know the difference between hype, hope and heros. Ali was and is the latter - he is 'The Greatest.'

Couldn't of put it any better!!!

wmute
01-08-2005, 03:54 PM
Frasier- Ali was beaten by Frasier when they first fought, Ali did learn to beat the man but it was a learning progress.

It was also a learning progress against Norton.

And the rope a dope was a great plan, get beaten up and hope your opponent gets tired!! :confused: Foreman beat himself.



this whole part of your post is based on a past his prime ali, do we need to write about a past his prime tyson (whose prime lasted like 3 days or so)? and how he lost to any great fighter he faced and had no learning process at all? oh yes he learned to bite...

No we don't need to.

Ali 1967 was arguably the fastest HW in boxing history (feet and hands), had one of the greatest chin in boxing history, one of the greatest jab in HW history, could frustrate his opponent physically by tieing him up (even big xtra-strong ppl like liston and foreman) and psychologically. Add to the above great stamina and you have quite a toolbox to defeat Tyson.

this is my opinion, what exactly do you mean by "prime Tyson had the physical abilitys to beat any heavyweight ever"

KO him? ali survived liston foreman and shavers and wa quite hard to hit in his prime

decision him? how exactly by out jabbing him? by sticking and moving faster than ali? by fighting on the inside where ali would tie him and lay on him?

I am curious

- Evil -
01-08-2005, 07:33 PM
this whole part of your post is based on a past his prime ali, do we need to write about a past his prime tyson (whose prime lasted like 3 days or so)? and how he lost to any great fighter he faced and had no learning process at all? oh yes he learned to bite...

No we don't need to.

Ali 1967 was arguably the fastest HW in boxing history (feet and hands), had one of the greatest chin in boxing history, one of the greatest jab in HW history, could frustrate his opponent physically by tieing him up (even big xtra-strong ppl like liston and foreman) and psychologically. Add to the above great stamina and you have quite a toolbox to defeat Tyson.

this is my opinion, what exactly do you mean by "prime Tyson had the physical abilitys to beat any heavyweight ever"

KO him? ali survived liston foreman and shavers and wa quite hard to hit in his prime

decision him? how exactly by out jabbing him? by sticking and moving faster than ali? by fighting on the inside where ali would tie him and lay on him?

I am curious

I cant believe how big of a hype Ali is, i just watch him fight and i cant see this amazing speed and movement. :confused:

IMO Tyson could beat Ali, IMO Marciano, Dempsey and Louis would hand Ali his ass!!

But the simple fact is no Heavyweight will ever be considered better than Ali!! The out of the ring Ali created the biggest sporting hype ever, so i'll accept there is no reasoning with Ali fans and discontinue this debate.

wmute
01-08-2005, 08:02 PM
I cant believe how big of a hype Ali is, i just watch him fight and i cant see this amazing speed and movement. :confused:

IMO Tyson could beat Ali, IMO Marciano, Dempsey and Louis would hand Ali his ass!!

But the simple fact is no Heavyweight will ever be considered better than Ali!! The out of the ring Ali created the biggest sporting hype ever, so i'll accept there is no reasoning with Ali fans and discontinue this debate.

if you can't see the speed and movement

2 cases

1) you don't see what everyone else is seeing
2) you only have seen the 70s Ali

which one of the 2?

also, I think there is no reasoning with you... I base my opinions (which of course might be wrong) on what I see in fights and write it, you just write "I think x beats y"... or refer to "physical abilities", I think you should bother in explaining what you see in tyson would get the best of a prime ali instead of dropping your divine wisdom on us.

- Evil -
01-08-2005, 08:22 PM
if you can't see the speed and movement

2 cases

1) you don't see what everyone else is seeing
2) you only have seen the 70s Ali

which one of the 2?

also, I think there is no reasoning with you... I base my opinions (which of course might be wrong) on what I see in fights and write it, you just write "I think x beats y"... or refer to "physical abilities", I think you should bother in explaining what you see in tyson would get the best of a prime ali instead of dropping your divine wisdom on us.

The reason i dont comment on the possible match up because there no way of me proving my point, the only reason i posted on this thread is because someone said Ali would whip Marciano and Tyson. I disagree but i wish i hadnt bothered because i know how deluded Ali fans are.

And FYI boxing isnt just the sweet sciene, its also about beating the **** out of the other guy.

Talk boxing about possible fights and i'll give you good reasoning.

wmute
01-08-2005, 08:43 PM
The reason i dont comment on the possible match up because there no way of me proving my point, the only reason i posted on this thread is because someone said Ali would whip Marciano and Tyson. I disagree but i wish i hadnt bothered because i know how deluded Ali fans are.

And FYI boxing isnt just the sweet sciene, its also about beating the **** out of the other guy.

Talk boxing about possible fights and i'll give you good reasoning.

whatever... I think boxing is the sweet science OF beating the **** out of the other guy... tyson knew that and was a great scholar who fought in a smart way in his short prime, cus d'amato put enough sweet science in that crazy head who sat on top of that incredible body to make him the youngest HW champ of the world.

The great Jack Dempsey, the symbol of the violence in boxing in his time, the tyson of the 20s in a way, got beaten by a scholar in Tunney, who studied him for years.

you did not answer my question though... have you seen ali's fights from the 60s? if not there are a few you can download on emule (that's where I got them) and enjoy the movement and speed

- Evil -
01-08-2005, 09:02 PM
whatever... I think boxing is the sweet science OF beating the **** out of the other guy... tyson knew that and was a great scholar who fought in a smart way in his short prime, cus d'amato put enough sweet science in that crazy head who sat on top of that incredible body to make him the youngest HW champ of the world.

The great Jack Dempsey, the symbol of the violence in boxing in his time, the tyson of the 20s in a way, got beaten by a scholar in Tunney, who studied him for years.

you did not answer my question though... have you seen ali's fights from the 60s? if not there are a few you can download on emule (that's where I got them) and enjoy the movement and speed

I have no doubt that its more likely that Ali win a rematch, he fought a lot better when he knew his opponent.

Do you think Tunney would have beaten Dempsey if he hadnt studied him him for years? or if the fights had taken place before his career became hollywood stagnent?

To answer your question yes, i have made a point of watching a lot of Ali's fights. i wanted to see the hype for myself.

If a fighter is called the greatest by members of the puplic who have never seen him fight(and there are plenty of them) he must be overated!!

Ali was great for the sport at one stage but history should have forgotten him and moved on, even now the only fight you can buy from a video store are Ali's. Its disrespectful to all the other champs that he was so over hyped, its bad for the sport that nobody will ever live up to his reputation again.

Floydmayweather
01-11-2005, 12:54 PM
See Ali makes his fights look easy. Fighters were afraid just to let their hands go.(with a few expections) Watch the big cat williams fight and u will see why some fighters did not want to open up against him. the list of fighhters he beats speaks for itself. U could argue that a few Heavy weights would have a shot at beating ALi in his prime but its only about 3 fighters. I still say Ali is the greatest.

roXy graziano
01-11-2005, 07:33 PM
then who was the greatest fighter ?

Rocky Graziano :D No just kidding (even though he's my alltime favorite)

I don't think there is a greatest fighter. As stupid as that sounds

gogan
01-13-2005, 06:59 PM
Ali might not have been the best, i personally believe sugar ray leonard was crazy for what he did and maybe not better but just as great as Ali. Ali isn't the greatest but he fought the greatest and beat the greatest. You can't pick one, you can only single out several that were above the best. You'd have to admit though that Ali wen't against them all and didn't beat them to peices but he still won. He fought the fast, he fought the tall, he fought the tactical and he fought the monsters. I'd personally say foreman was the tyson of his time and Ali out smarted foreman, just like hed do for tyson. Marcianno is a mystery to me thouhg, he had amazing power and never looked like he should of. I really dont know what would happen there for him and ali. i supose if ali knew of his power he'd never let him hit him though. Ali used his brain. One thing most boxers never use. Ali wasn't the greatest of them all, he will just be remembered as one of them.

joho
01-30-2005, 12:09 PM
i think ali is slightly overrated because of the hype

dmar
06-27-2005, 07:36 PM
here's my deal on Ali : like you said, he wasn't technically the best boxer. The things you've mentioned that supposedly make him stand out (ability to take punishment for example) isn't entirely unique. What makes Ali truly stand out among all other fighters? People always seem to think he was the best

If we all got to see our fantasy fights I'd see Marciano and Ali and I'm sure Marciano would win. I've heard people say Tyson could beat Ali and I don't agree with that. I don't know about me brown bomber but that would be sweet to see together :D

No doubt Ali was a great fighter but I do think he was (is) overrated and definetely don't think he was the greatest fighter of all time as so many people do. I will give you that he was a smart fighter, fast, and could take a beating and come back but like I said he's not the only one and that doesn't make him stand out

rrr I guess I'll get some negative feedback for this :cool:
excellent post..first ali yes was an all time great..no doubt..overated..if i had to make a list he would be number 1..i dont like fantasy fights ..thats just me..but ali had problems with all who fought with a style like rocky..frazier spinks cooper bonevena etc..he did the most magnificent job of promoting himself..im the greatest..a hero to the media..hyped by the media like larry merchant who at that time new zero about figters..ditto norman mailer..alis the best of his era..thats all you can ask a fighter to be..he had too many awfull performances to be called the greatest..henry cooper at 185 lbs koed him..yes..angelo dundee saves him via cut glove so ali gets a 6-7 miute rest..he was done..see the film clips.the bell saves him..a bum spinks 8 pro fights and had a drawe in those 8.goes 30 rounds and holds him even..weak chin no defence no puncer at all..a swarming style backs ali up for 30 rounds and staggers him..jimmy young beat him..ron lyle a slow mover out boxed him for 10 rounds..fight stoped when kyle played possum not hurst..evangelista may of won that fight..ali did zero to get desision.decked by sonny banks he wins on cuts..out of shape in many fights..awfull against chuck weapner..EGADS..ditto mac foster joe bugner jimmy ellis ..yes the best of his era..which was a good era..thats all you can say or ask..pep robinson greb armstrong and others yes greater..

dmar
06-27-2005, 07:38 PM
excellent post..first ali yes was an all time great..no doubt..overated..if i had to make a list he would be number 1..i dont like fantasy fights ..thats just me..but ali had problems with all who fought with a style like rocky..frazier spinks cooper bonevena etc..he did the most magnificent job of promoting himself..im the greatest..a hero to the media..hyped by the media like larry merchant who at that time new zero about figters..ditto norman mailer..alis the best of his era..thats all you can ask a fighter to be..he had too many awfull performances to be called the greatest..henry cooper at 185 lbs koed him..yes..angelo dundee saves him via cut glove so ali gets a 6-7 miute rest..he was done..see the film clips.the bell saves him..a bum spinks 8 pro fights and had a drawe in those 8.goes 30 rounds and holds him even..weak chin no defence no puncer at all..a swarming style backs ali up for 30 rounds and staggers him..jimmy young beat him..ron lyle a slow mover out boxed him for 10 rounds..fight stoped when kyle played possum not hurst..evangelista may of won that fight..ali did zero to get desision.decked by sonny banks he wins on cuts..out of shape in many fights..awfull against chuck weapner..EGADS..ditto mac foster joe bugner jimmy ellis ..yes the best of his era..which was a good era..thats all you can say or ask..pep robinson greb armstrong and others yes greater..
i forgot kenny norton who destroys him in fight 1..and beats him in a lousy fight in fight 3 ali gets the nod..

abright1
07-02-2005, 07:45 AM
post-suspension Ali just like Ray-Leonard's whole career..."all sizzle" media phenomenon aided by gift decisions (Norton beat him AT LEAST two of the 3 fights...sit down and watch them, forgetting that one of them is a famous big name)

pre-susp-Ali...the real deal all-time great
post-susp-Ali...a R.Leonard-like media-stunt-pulling/media-assisted poser (very good boxers but not all-time greats IN-the-ring)...DLH was great...now going to milk rest of his "career" using the R-L formula

ricecrispi
07-03-2005, 05:06 AM
Ali is not overrated. He was a great fighter even if he lost 3-4 more fights. He was not the greatest, Sugar Ray was, is, and may always be.

As why many people consider him for being overated.

Ali hyping himself. So what if he did? It made him exciting and got people's attention. Now it seems charismatic because he won many of the fights. People see him as the greatest because he called himself that. In fact, back in the 60-70's, many people didn't like how brash he was and his bragging. People couldn't wait for Ali to be beat, he was a loud mouth disrespectful black not like Joe Louis. Look back in the 60's-70's racial landscape, it could've come a better time and his action transcended boxing history into America history. He ends up looking like a genius.

Media hyping him. Yeah they are. They hype him like crazy because these writers often see clips and highlights. Most sports journalist do that and have this retinal image burned into there head. The greatness in the ring runs over into real life. The media over the 20 years have polished the Ali image because the media never tells the story from two sides of the coin. They make it one way or the other. Bleek and depressing or all cheery and heroic and great like they do with Ali. It's easy to paint a good picture when a guy calls himself the greatest and wins most of his fights on paper. They cast Sonny Liston, Frazier, and Foreman as these these great villians for the greatest to defeat. Look at the Michael Mann movie with Will Smith and you see this image of Ali everyone is getting fed. I was being brain wash and so is the rest of america.

Fights. Ali had great fights that he won, close ones he could've lost or win, and fights he should've been impressive but wasn't. Ali was honestly on the recieving end of many close decisions.
BTW the Cooper fight has no 7-8 min rumored delay dmar. Actual footage proves the delay it was a 1 min delay with a look at the glove and a regular rest period. Some video retaled problems. Ali was playing with his opponent but the bell saved him for sure.
Everyfighter has a weakness and Ali was swarmers. Ali need room to operate and extend his power. He was a horrible infighter. In the fights were he looked bad, Ali was 35+ vs Spinks, Evangelista, Norton II, Young, Lyle. He fought 15 years in the ring and was on the recieving end of benefits on decisions. For every bad performance he gave us 2-3 good ones.

abright1
07-03-2005, 11:37 AM
Two completely different animals...and must be evaluated separately. Pre-suspension IN-the-ring..One of the All-time greats any way you slice it (like LW Duran)...Post-suspension Ali also an all-time great but mostly for OUT-of-the-ring (ambassadorial, career-management pioneering, etc.) reasons...received FAR-TOO-MANY gift decisions for that. Admittedly pulled off one amazing tactical stunt (vs. the monster Foreman) in that period worthy of lore...

Don't confuse the two Ali's and you'll remember him properly.

Don't confuse the two an

ricecrispi
07-03-2005, 06:43 PM
I disagree on the two part evaulatin of Ali's career. I think it is more of a 3 part career some fighter's have vs the common 2 part career during the prime and after the prime type.

Ali had a pre-suspension in his prime period, post suspension slightly past his prime period, and 35+ over the hill Ali that should've quite. I think the 35+ past his prime should be after Thrilla in Manilla Frazier III fight. Another example is Holyfield.

DPUMA8
07-08-2005, 03:57 AM
Wow. I read a lot of these posts and it seems many have a bias towards Rocky Marciano by saying he is so great and can beat Ali. I have to say that Marciano was great for his time but would lose to Ali (I dislike Ali too). I do not think that a 185 pound guy that does not have a great guard can beat an Ali. I do not think that Marciano can beat Lennox Lewis or Holyfield either. He is too small and heavyweights are a little too big, quick, and strong for Marciano.

hellfire508
07-08-2005, 09:32 AM
Muhammad Ali is not overrated. His blinding speed of hand and foot at heavyweight was phenonenmal, and allowed him to lack in the fundamentals and fight like a technical boxer - aka Joe Louis. He could adapt to fight conditions, and absorb an insane amount of punches. He was almost impossible to knock out because of his natural reflexes to avoid getting hit - "hands cant hit what the eyes cant see"....and even if you could hit him, he just took it and talked to you. His mind games tore his opponents apart as well as any Sonny Liston or Mike Tyson. The quality of opposition is second to none, and his confidence made him duck NOBODY. However it is probably his undying self belief that led to his inevitable demise in his last couple of fights, that happens to everyone, especially one who relies on speed and reflexes as their primary weapon. He beat 3 top 10 heavyweights (all-time), plus at least 10-15 other top 50s (all-time).

What a fighter....what a man.

hellfire508
07-08-2005, 09:49 AM
Dmar: Henry cooper gave Ali no trouble, likewise with Bonavena. In the Bonavena fight, I had Ali winning 12 rounds out of 14. And just becuase a MONSTER left hook from Cooper knocked Ali down, doesnt mean he really troubled him. ali was up like lightning and annihalated Cooper in the fifth round, with the worst beating in such a short time that ive ever witnessed. Second fight was just another beating for 6 rounds.

The two that gave Ali trouble were Frazier and Norton. He lost to Frazier in the first fight, and im willing to bet that EVERY heavyweight in history with the exception of Sonny Liston and George Foreman (styles) would have lost to Frazier on that night. But lets not forget, Ali won two out of three against Frazier. Same with Norton, he won two out of three (despite probably losing the third, but he was so over-the-hill its ridiculous). A prime Ali would have dealt with Norton a lot better, and probably same with Frazier. However I think the Frazier from the first fight would have beaten a prime Ali, very tough to say though, as Ali wasnt dancing.

Marciano-Ali would be a very interesting fight, and we can disregard that awful computer fight. I think Ali would win a comfortable decision over MArciano 4 times out of 5. He had the two handed power that Frazier didnt have, however he didnt have the speed or the defence that Frazier had, and that would leave him more vulnerable to a terrible beating from Ali. Infact the more I think of it, the more i see a late stoppage for Ali. Not a knock out, but a stoppage from the beating Ali would give Marciano - aybe 13th round. MArciano had amazing stamina and power, but I just cant see him nullifying the size and speed disadvantage. Plus, Marciano didnt apply the same relentless pressure Frazier did, nor did he have the jab Norton did. He was a great, great fighter no doubt, but head to head with Ali, he just doesnt win.

I have studied ALOT of Ali footage, and i mean ALOT. Ive seen over 20 (off top of my head) Joe Louis fights, and I still cant see Louis beating Ali. Louis IMO beats most heavies head to head, but Ali just had the right style for Louis. Louis was flat footed, not moving much, and relied on his power and accuracy to destroy his opponents. Billy Conn troubled Louis with his speed and boxing, but Conn was a LHW by today's standards, was no where near as tall or as fast as Ali. Ali had an 83" reach that would pick apart Louis from a distance. Louis' primary weapon was his power combination punching that was laser accurate. Ali said it best ----- responding to Cus D'Mato saying he (Ali) couldnt handle Joe Louis' combination punching. "There wont be any combination punching, if Joe Louis hit me once Im gonna move".
And thats exactly right. Ali was so fast, he could be hit once, but he was never hit by a combination except when he was rope-a-doping. Louis would land nothing but single shots all night, and there wouldnt even be many of them. Louis is tailor made for Ali.

Basically what im trying to say is, head to head, Ali beats every heavyweight in history in my honest, non-biased opinion. Sometimes I am biased for Ali - because he is so damn good - but honestly, in all seriousness, nobody beats Ali head to head IMO.

ricecrispi
07-08-2005, 10:03 PM
Ali should've lost to Frazier twice but on paper once. III thrilla in Manilla was a dead tie of a fight. It wasn't Ali beating Joe, it was a matter of will and who could last the longest in that fight. Ali won the mind games again.
You should see Ali pretending not to be winded and dehydrated in the corner that last round. Ali was looking at Joe saying I rather die then quit against you. All Joe had to do was stand up and Ali would've caved.
But you never know with Ali, he might have fought anyways.

vs Norton, Ali won a fight he should've lost clearly. Ali didn't look sharp and was hurt several times and wasn't as effective his other fights.

Ali in his prime was unbeatable. He moved like a ballerina, hit hard in single punchs and in combinations. He's combo's were blistering fast for a heavyweight and had plenty of pop. He had a stiff single, double, triple jab and with movement was hard to hit. He got you to overextend with your punchs trying to hit him and leave you off balance when you tried to hit when he tilted back. You would get winded following him around the ring. Liston was known for a great jab and had trouble land on Ali. The government and the Army. What do they have against black heavyweights? Why they always messing it with them?

hellfire508
07-09-2005, 07:22 AM
Ali should've lost to Frazier twice but on paper once. III thrilla in Manilla was a dead tie of a fight. It wasn't Ali beating Joe, it was a matter of will and who could last the longest in that fight. Ali won the mind games again.
You should see Ali pretending not to be winded and dehydrated in the corner that last round. Ali was looking at Joe saying I rather die then quit against you. All Joe had to do was stand up and Ali would've caved.
But you never know with Ali, he might have fought anyways.

vs Norton, Ali won a fight he should've lost clearly. Ali didn't look sharp and was hurt several times and wasn't as effective his other fights.

Ali in his prime was unbeatable. He moved like a ballerina, hit hard in single punchs and in combinations. He's combo's were blistering fast for a heavyweight and had plenty of pop. He had a stiff single, double, triple jab and with movement was hard to hit. He got you to overextend with your punchs trying to hit him and leave you off balance when you tried to hit when he tilted back. You would get winded following him around the ring. Liston was known for a great jab and had trouble land on Ali. The government and the Army. What do they have against black heavyweights? Why they always messing it with them?

Ali was destroying Frazier in the third fight. Especially in the 13th and 14th rounds. Punch after punch was landed flush, people feared for Fraziers health. Ali was winnning the fight CLEARLY. And if Joe got up, can you really see Muhammad Ali staying on his stool? I cant.

czars_salad
07-09-2005, 08:17 AM
Ali should've lost to Frazier twice but on paper once. III thrilla in Manilla was a dead tie of a fight. It wasn't Ali beating Joe, it was a matter of will and who could last the longest in that fight. Ali won the mind games again.
You should see Ali pretending not to be winded and dehydrated in the corner that last round. Ali was looking at Joe saying I rather die then quit against you. All Joe had to do was stand up and Ali would've caved.
But you never know with Ali, he might have fought anyways.


for all i know, the scores were landslide in favor of ali ;)

Easy-E
07-10-2005, 02:28 AM
Now this is an interesting topic....

Out of Marciano, Tyson and ALi, the first person you have to eliminate is mike tyson. Powerful, yes, but i can picture Ali doing to him what he did to Foreman, who was untouchable at that time. One factor that led tyson to all of his victories was the fact that pretty much everyone was terrified of him. I mean, champion michael spinks wore kneepads into the ring with him! The 31-0 fighter had admitted defeat before the bell rang. This is true with most of tysons competition, they were afraid. Buster Douglas wasnt afraid of mike and if you watch that fight (ive watched it about four times) mike doesnt really know how to react, because douglas isnt letting him mow him down.
I feel that ali would fight with absolutly no fear of tyson, and win the mental game, and having the mental edge has beaten mike in the past. Add in his speed and i see ali taking that fight.
However, Ali v Marciano is impossible for me to call. If Ali brings his best to the ring i feel as though he can defeat anyone. However, as we have seen, this does not happen every fight. I have no doubts that marciano could beat ali, but that doesnt mean he is the better boxer.

It may be that Ali is not the best boxer of all time, (some will say he is and some will say he isnt) But i truly believe that he is the greatest champion of all time, hands down

anwaryussuf81
07-10-2005, 10:29 PM
Ali is not overrated. Are you crazy? He won almost all of his big fights in his career. He beat liston twice, he beat the unbeatable foreman, he beat frazier twice, he beat patterson twice, he beat cooper twice, he beat chuvalo twice, he beat quarry twice, he beat Norton twice, he beat Ron lyle, he beat Wepner, he beat Shavers, he beat leon spinks. May I say more. Ali is the greatest of ALL TIME.

NiGe2011
07-11-2005, 03:07 AM
I dont think that Ali was overrated. If you look at some of the things that he accomplished and some of the fighters he beat despite being robbed of some of the best years of his career, it is simply amazing! If anything I think that some of the fighters that he defeated are a little underrated- the most so being Sonny Liston.

ricecrispi
07-12-2005, 03:02 AM
You guys are right about the fight not being close in the end result. At the 11th the fight was very close then on the one side beating took place. Overall it was a close fight but after the 11th it was a lopsided beating and that why it was Ali clearly ahead in points. It was sicken to watch Joe eat shot after shot.

Ali said he was about to quit twice in that fight,in the 10th and the 15th. He told the corner during the 15th if Frazier gets up he wasn't sure if he could get up for the bell. I'm not sure if he meant to throw in the towel but Ali said he felt like he nearly died in that fight.
In the 10th Ali said he couldn't make it through the fight and wanted to quit. I'm glad he didn't.
True heart of a champ in both guys.

hellfire508
07-12-2005, 05:35 AM
You guys are right about the fight not being close in the end result. At the 11th the fight was very close then on the one side beating took place. Overall it was a close fight but after the 11th it was a lopsided beating and that why it was Ali clearly ahead in points. It was sicken to watch Joe eat shot after shot.

Ali said he was about to quit twice in that fight,in the 10th and the 15th. He told the corner during the 15th if Frazier gets up he wasn't sure if he could get up for the bell. I'm not sure if he meant to throw in the towel but Ali said he felt like he nearly died in that fight.
In the 10th Ali said he couldn't make it through the fight and wanted to quit. I'm glad he didn't.
True heart of a champ in both guys.

ive never heard ali say that about 10th round. he said he was suprised at how much Joe had left, which was disconcerting for him.

Ali_is_the_greatest17
07-12-2005, 03:31 PM
I think that Ali is not overrated at all.. he has the best feet ever in the history of heavyweights, he has blinding handspeed, and just cant possibly be beat.. He beat the "invincible" Liston, "The Rabbit" Mayweather, "smokin'" Joe Frazier, George Foreman, and finally Leon Spinks. He is the smartest boxer ever, and simply the greatest boxer ever. And the sum it all up, there is no Muhammad Ali, and there will never be a Muhammad Ali...as simple as that.

+= El Jefe=+
07-12-2005, 06:06 PM
I dont think that Ali was overrated. If you look at some of the things that he accomplished and some of the fighters he beat despite being robbed of some of the best years of his career, it is simply amazing! If anything I think that some of the fighters that he defeated are a little underrated- the most so being Sonny Liston.
i think he is one of the most underrated guys ever, he doesnt get enough respect

Ali_is_the_greatest17
07-12-2005, 07:17 PM
i think he is one of the most underrated guys ever, he doesnt get enough respect

I know!! He deserves much more respect!!

mexway
07-12-2005, 08:21 PM
I know!! He deserves much more respect!!
he not the greatests sugar ray robinson is

ricecrispi
07-13-2005, 04:18 AM
ive never heard ali say that about 10th round. he said he was suprised at how much Joe had left, which was disconcerting for him.


Ali was later quoted that he had been ready to quit if Joe had not.
Ali fainted at the end of the fight and was carried out.

Ali was quoted saying his corner in effect he felt like he was dying and wanted to quit.

I can't find a source for it but it's out there.

The first one is basically word for word.
I can't remember the exact quote on the second on during the 10th round.

splhcb
07-13-2005, 03:32 PM
ali vs. marciano would be almost a carbon copy of his fights with frazier, with ali coming out on top everytime by decision. i dont think he can ko marciano but he could stop him on cuts.

Comments above coming from a knowledgeble smart fight fan. Marciano and Frazier had very similar styles. The most glaring difference was Rocky cut, as most white fighters tend to do. With Ali's superior reach, stamina / endurance, not to mention his height, weight and hand speed advantage, Marciano would have his plate full.

It's extrememly unlikely Rocky would be able to trap Ali in a corner and pummel away. And even for the sake of arguement, let's say that he did. Ali could absorb so much punishment, I seriously doubt he would be knocked out.

I see a confrontation such as this ending with a stoppage (on cuts - Marciano NOT Ali) or a decision on point for Muhammad Ali.
Rocky's style was just a little too predictable. You don't think for one second Ali wouldn't capitalize on that?

Final note; Ali fought similar fighters in terms of Marciano's style and power (i.e. Joe Frazier, Ernie Shavers, Sonny Liston)yet I cannot think of one fighter Rocky ever faced that was a proto-type of Muhammad Ali. At least non that could absorb punishment to that level.

Mike White

Easy-E
07-13-2005, 04:44 PM
Comments above coming from a knowledgeble smart fight fan. Marciano and Frazier had very similar styles. The most glaring difference was Rocky cut, as most white fighters tend to do. With Ali's superior reach, stamina / endurance, not to mention his height, weight and hand speed advantage, Marciano would have his plate full.

It's extrememly unlikely Rocky would be able to trap Ali in a corner and pummel away. And even for the sake of arguement, let's say that he did. Ali could absorb so much punishment, I seriously doubt he would be knocked out.

I see a confrontation such as this ending with a stoppage (on cuts - Marciano NOT Ali) or a decision on point for Muhammad Ali.
Rocky's style was just a little too predictable. You don't think for one second Ali wouldn't capitalize on that?

Final note; Ali fought similar fighters in terms of Marciano's style and power (i.e. Joe Frazier, Ernie Shavers, Sonny Liston)yet I cannot think of one fighter Rocky ever faced that was a proto-type of Muhammad Ali. At least non that could absorb punishment to that level.

Mike White


The problem with that statement is that its tough to compare skill levels from different era's, theres really no way to tell who was better in their prime if they never fought.
However, Marciano did fight some great fighters, such as ezzard charles and jersey joe walcott, each twice, and won three of those fights by ko and one by Ud. He also knocked out archie moore and Harry "kid" matthews. May not be as notable of a name, but anyone who has 90 wins is a damn good boxer in my book.

However, i do believe that Ali is the greatest

ricecrispi
07-13-2005, 05:58 PM
I dont think they would stop a fight on a Marciano cut and more likely cuts he would sustain in an Ali fight. A young Ali would probably beat Marciano by decision by dancing away. I don't think post suspension Ali could.

Barrera fan
07-23-2005, 09:05 AM
Ali was one of the greatest boxer of all time but as he said himself in the video champions forever he was the greatest of his time and he said he realises that no one can be the greatest forever because there will always be someone who comes along that rules his own era and will be added to the list of great champions
P.S. if any of you see the video champions forever in the shops buy it, its brilliant

Dempsey 1919
10-25-2005, 07:08 PM
How could Ali be overrated? He is actually overwelmingly underrated. Some people say his greatest asset was his speed. Others say it was his determination and ability to take a punch. Muhammad Ali's greatest asset bar-none was his dedication. That is what makes the greatest of all time in a sport, nothing else. Michael Jordan is the greatest in basket ball for his dedication and his refusal to win. The same goes for Wayne Gretsky in Hockey, Michael Johnson in track and field, Jim Brown in football, Lance Armstrong in cycling, Willie Mays in baseball, and last but not least (probably first) Muhammad Ali in boxing. When Clay (Ali) was twelve years old, and just started boxing, he was one of the worst kid fighters probably in Kentucky, believe it or not. He went to the gym far longer than all the kids though. He was clumsy and awkward at first, but with counless hours of coordination drills he became skillful and quick. He then started winning golden glove titles, and he even copped Olympic Gold in 1960 as a Light Heavyweight, and da rest, as they say, is hissstoryyyy!!!!!

He honed his hand and foot skills in the late 60s. He was always saying he was the greatest, but he knew he had to back it up, so he did. Countless miles of roadwork and punching the bag and sparring made him unbeatable, not because he was a gift from God. And in his later years, conserving his energy and finding another way to win and running with that is what made him top dog in his thirties, when younger men should have been holding the crown. Bottom line, his determination did it, and don't non of yall eva forget it!

Frazier's 15th round
10-25-2005, 07:19 PM
Ha, now the Ali nuthuggers storm in the thread claiming he is UNDERRATED. :rolleyes:

Dempsey 1919
10-25-2005, 07:21 PM
i'm not an ali nuthugger. You are just an ali playa hater and i am just stating the facts.

Frazier's 15th round
10-25-2005, 07:26 PM
Yes, you are. Sure, he was the greatest, but the pedestal he is put on is so ridiculous, I just have to laugh.

Dempsey 1919
10-26-2005, 04:54 PM
no pedestal is too high for ali. he did the impossible (count it) three times. He whooped up on sonny liston in clay-liston I in 1964 in one of the most lopsided title exchange fights in history. the only round liston won was the fifth when he rubbed the stinging liniment in clay's eyes. second, he knocked out the invincible george foreman in 1974, winning practically all the rounds also. last, but not least, he became the first and still is the only one to win the HW crown an unprecedented third time, with a very, also as the others, lopsided unanimous decision in 15 rounds over leon spinks in ali-spinks II in 1978. up to that point, this man career couldn't be made up in a storybook. anyone who did all that with the pressure from the u.s. draft board and everything is unreal. he is the black superman. he is a true legend. da butterfly (ali), is THEE GREATEST!!!

Derranged
10-26-2005, 08:06 PM
How do you guys think he would do against Wladimir?? Im pretty sure Ali would win on late round TKO because Wlad would run out of gas but would have a lot of trouble at first. And for the record, Ali would beat Marciano and would win every round. Rock would be lucky to land 5 punches a round- Im sayin this and Im full blooded italian.

Dempsey 1919
10-26-2005, 08:19 PM
i'm not sure who vladimir is but definitely marciano wouldn't stand a chance against ali. the computer fight no doubt was scripted by white racists wanting marciano to come out top dog, not someone who they thought was a loud-mouth, disrespectful n****r.