View Full Version : Blueprints:The fights which revealed how to beat certain fighters


Toney616
08-16-2010, 03:27 PM
Ali-Frazier I: set the blueprint of how to beat a short left hook dominant fighter. Rahman, Douglas, Holyfield and Ike would all some form of Ali's tactics when they fought Tyson/Tua

Toney-McCallum II: McCallum was throwing mainly left hooks, left jabs and circling to Toneys left, away from his counter right, Jones and Griffin would use this stragey when they fought Toney

Morales-Pacquaio: showed that Pac is vunerable to the left jab, straight right combination, Jmm would use the same offensive attack during his second fight with Pac.

Can anyone here think of any more?

MeccaOfBoxing
08-16-2010, 03:33 PM
Forrest vs Mosley......Shane can be beat with the Jab

tyger
08-16-2010, 03:38 PM
Fres Oquendo showed that if you counter punch and make Chris Byrd become the aggressor it is a way to beat him. For Byrds next few title defenses everybody did this and Byrd barely retained his title each time. Even Klitschko did this when he won the title from Byrd.

You could also say that Oscar De La Hoya layed out the game plan for Hopkins on how to beat Trinidad.

BigStereotype
08-17-2010, 01:02 PM
Cotto-Torres: Torres lost but he got off to a hell of a start with volume punching. Cotto doesn't deal well with pressure.

SBleeder
08-17-2010, 02:00 PM
Duran vs. Leonard I and II- Although Duran had one loss on his record going into the first Leonard fight, Leonard showed in their first meeting how to neutralize Duran's relentless attack. Although he lost the decision, he clearly had a working strategy going into the second fight, a strategy that caused Duran to quit in frustration from Leonard's footwork and outside combinations.

Toney616
08-17-2010, 02:50 PM
Thanks to all the guys who contributed to my thread, some nice examples, which Im going to have to check out.

Toney616
08-17-2010, 02:51 PM
Forrest vs Mosley......Shane can be beat with the Jab
I havent seen that fight, I do know that Shane had no answer for Oscar's jab during the first 6 rounds of their rematch

off topic: Does Mora have a good jab?

DarkTerror88
08-17-2010, 02:53 PM
Ali- Frazier 1 also showed that it is possible to beat Ali by outworking him and cornering him.

Toney616
08-17-2010, 02:54 PM
Fres Oquendo showed that if you counter punch and make Chris Byrd become the aggressor it is a way to beat him. For Byrds next few title defenses everybody did this and Byrd barely retained his title each time. Even Klitschko did this when he won the title from Byrd.
Is Byrd-Oquendo an entertaining fight?

You could also say that Oscar De La Hoya layed out the game plan for Hopkins on how to beat Trinidad.
I was thinking of that as well. His use of lateral movement and feints gave Tito a very hard time

Toney616
08-17-2010, 02:55 PM
Ali- Frazier 1 also showed that it is possible to beat Ali by outworking him and cornering him.
Good example, do you know of any other fighter which used this tactic against Ali?

Toney616
08-17-2010, 02:56 PM
Cotto-Torres: Torres lost but he got off to a hell of a start with volume punching. Cotto doesn't deal well with pressure.
Its been a while since Ive seen that fight, would you say that Marg plan was similar to Torres's plan?

Toney616
08-17-2010, 02:57 PM
Duran vs. Leonard I and II- Although Duran had one loss on his record going into the first Leonard fight, Leonard showed in their first meeting how to neutralize Duran's relentless attack. Although he lost the decision, he clearly had a working strategy going into the second fight, a strategy that caused Duran to quit in frustration from Leonard's footwork and outside combinations.How did he do that?

Miburo
08-17-2010, 05:05 PM
DLH-Trinidad, Tyson-Douglas.

DarkTerror88
08-17-2010, 10:29 PM
Good example, do you know of any other fighter which used this tactic against Ali?

Sorry, can't say I did, one of my gymmates was saying that quarry tried, but I don't see it.

I believe it would be a strategy most swarmers would use against anyone, but I don't think Ali fought too many swarmers. Not that he ducked them I just think there more punchers and boxers in his era, Frazier I think was the only swarmer. That I know of.

wmute
08-18-2010, 04:21 AM
Duran vs. Leonard I and II- Although Duran had one loss on his record going into the first Leonard fight, Leonard showed in their first meeting how to neutralize Duran's relentless attack. Although he lost the decision, he clearly had a working strategy going into the second fight, a strategy that caused Duran to quit in frustration from Leonard's footwork and outside combinations.

Considering you cannot find a single second of fight 2 where Leonard fights as in fight 1...

Considering Leonard did not neutralize anything in their first fight...

What you wrote is bs.

wmute
08-18-2010, 04:22 AM
DLH-Tito (in fact he actual beat him on any sane individual's card)

It was shocking that Tito did not know how to deal with a jab. It looked like no one ever jabbed at him before. Which is of course not true, so maybe it was the jab + knowing that DLH had something behind that jab.

wmute
08-18-2010, 04:24 AM
I was thinking of that as well. His use of lateral movement and feints gave Tito a very hard time

True but he moved way too much.

wmute
08-18-2010, 04:27 AM
Ali-Frazier I: set the blueprint of how to beat a short left hook dominant fighter. Rahman, Douglas, Holyfield and Ike would all some form of Ali's tactics when they fought Tyson/Tua


If you are right (as in actually the first to employee certain moves, ties...), it's a helluva point. Need to think of some older fights of boxer vs left hook weaver, and see what the boxer does!


Toney-McCallum II: McCallum was throwing mainly left hooks, left jabs and circling to Toneys left, away from his counter right, Jones and Griffin would use this stragey when they fought Toney


Helluva call.


Morales-Pacquaio: showed that Pac is vunerable to the left jab, straight right combination, Jmm would use the same offensive attack during his second fight with Pac.


i am debating on how useful that would be with the improved version of pac we see these days.

Spartacus Sully
08-18-2010, 04:37 AM
If you are right (as in actually the first to employee certain moves, ties...), it's a helluva point. Need to think of some older fights of boxer vs left hook weaver, and see what the boxer does!


one might find similarities in tunney vs dempsey or jeffries vs johnson? dempsey and jeffries both had nice left hooks and fought from the crouch employing lots of slipping though id have to watch all the bouts again before claiming that ali used similar tactics as johnson or tunney against fraizer.

Trenchant
08-18-2010, 07:01 AM
ken norton certainly swarmed Ali and kept him in the corners.

Ziggy Stardust
08-18-2010, 10:05 AM
ken norton certainly swarmed Ali and kept him in the corners.

Norton's style was poison to slick boxers: It was designed to take away everything they did. It came at a heavy cost as that particular style left Norton supremely vulnerable to straight ahead punchers.

Poet

BennyST
08-18-2010, 11:42 AM
Ali-Frazier I: set the blueprint of how to beat a short left hook dominant fighter. Rahman, Douglas, Holyfield and Ike would all some form of Ali's tactics when they fought Tyson/Tua

Toney-McCallum II: McCallum was throwing mainly left hooks, left jabs and circling to Toneys left, away from his counter right, Jones and Griffin would use this stragey when they fought Toney

Morales-Pacquaio: showed that Pac is vunerable to the left jab, straight right combination, Jmm would use the same offensive attack during his second fight with Pac.

Can anyone here think of any more?

Hadn't we already seen it with Marquez/Pac 1? Morales beat him, but without the first round Marquez would have beaten him much worse and showed a hell of a lot more of what frustrates, and can be used to beat, Pac than Morales did.

Ali/Frazier could even more easily be the other way around. Frazier used constant pressure and smart aggression to get inside and beat the hell out of Ali. I honestly don't see how that is a blueprint on how to beat Frazier. Frazier showed how to beat Ali, not the other way around.

TheHolyCross
08-18-2010, 11:45 AM
Norton's style was poison to slick boxers: It was designed to take away everything they did. It came at a heavy cost as that particular style left Norton supremely vulnerable to straight ahead punchers.

Poet

ali was slick now? i'd consider slipping punches being slick not jogging backwards, but anyways

norton's style was poisin to the jab you mean

Ziggy Stardust
08-18-2010, 11:49 AM
ali was slick now?

You're about the only person on the planet who doesn't think he was.


i'd consider slipping punches being slick not jogging backwards, but anyways

That's because you're retarded.


norton's style was poisin to the jab you mean

Among other things. And it's "poison" you illiterate twat.

Poet

BennyST
08-18-2010, 11:51 AM
Duran vs. Leonard I and II- Although Duran had one loss on his record going into the first Leonard fight, Leonard showed in their first meeting how to neutralize Duran's relentless attack. Although he lost the decision, he clearly had a working strategy going into the second fight, a strategy that caused Duran to quit in frustration from Leonard's footwork and outside combinations.

Ummmmmm............No.

If anyone had the 'blueprint' on how to beat Duran it was Edwin Viruet who used the exact style same as Leonard in the rematch but Viruet was a lightweight and at Duran's prime, and while he did very well and showed the blueprint to Dundee (who was watching) Dundee still thought you beat him by backing him up.

Leonard did not create the blueprint to beat him. He used another plan to get a slower, less in shape Duran and then run circles around him.

Viruet showed it first though, years and years before but Duran was at his best and a lightweight and happened to be much faster with feet and hands than as a WW and in much better shape and while it worked better (Viruet that is) compared to other fights and fighters, he still lost nearly every round and got the hell beaten out of him.

So, I know what you mean, but Leonard didn't create any blueprint.

prinzemanspopa
08-18-2010, 12:17 PM
George foreman vs Joe frazier 1: Showed that frazier couldn't take even a glancing shot from a real puncher.It also showed that frazier couldn't beat an elite heavyweight,who wasn't stupid enough to fight frazier's fight(besides Ali in their third meeting),and who wasn't plagued with ring rust.Jimmy Ellis was too old and shopworn to take notice,Ali would avenge his first defeat(twice) in decisive manner.foreman would later toy with frazier again and scared him off into retirement.



Ray Leonard vs Roerto Duran 2: Showed that Duran couldn't deal with real footwork,that his ability cut off the ring was overrated,as he never really did this in the first fight with Leonard,either.Also exposed lack of heart of Duran,in quitting rather than take the inevitable beating that he was to receive in the late rounds.



Marvin Hagler vs Marcos Geraldo: The usually aggressive Geraldo changed tactics and took Hagler's role as the counter puncher in this fight.Using smart movement and well-placed/timed spurts,Geraldo confused Hagler a great deal.Hagler found a way to win,but it exposed a great ***** in Hagler's armour,which would later be duplicated by Ray Leonard some seven years later.

BigStereotype
08-18-2010, 02:18 PM
Its been a while since Ive seen that fight, would you say that Marg plan was similar to Torres's plan?

Yeah, gameplan was similar, but like Kellerman said: This ain't Ricardo Torres. Margarito was just able to deal with Cotto's power and speed better and weather the storm. Torres wasn't. And nobody bumrushed like Margarito...

Toney616
08-18-2010, 03:31 PM
Hadn't we already seen it with Marquez/Pac 1? Morales beat him, but without the first round Marquez would have beaten him much worse and showed a hell of a lot more of what frustrates, and can be used to beat, Pac than Morales did..
It was the combination that Morales used which gave Pacman fits. He would jab, when Pac tried to slip it he would then hit pac with the straight right. During round 8(i think) he does it 3 times in a row. He basically won using that combination, he was also at times circling away from Pacquaios left hand. He of course kept his right hand close to his face to protect himself from Pacs left hand. Marquez would use the same combo during his ssecond fight with Pacquiao
As seen here:
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Ali/Frazier could even more easily be the other way around. Frazier used constant pressure and smart aggression to get inside and beat the hell out of Ali. I honestly don't see how that is a blueprint on how to beat Frazier. Frazier showed how to beat Ali, not the other way around.
Ali was circling to Frazier's right, he was using footwork to keep Frazier at the end of his jab. He was jabbing some times following up with a left hook or he would jab, right cross and then follow up with a left hook. He would also tie up Frazier on the inside to stop Frazier from going to work on the inside. I know he lost the first fight, but he would of course go on two win the following two rematches.

Tyson-Douglas:
Buster would use footwork to try to stay out of Tyson's punching range, he would use the following combo: double jab, right cross, left hook and then quickly bring his right hand back up to protect himself from Tyson's left hook.
Sometimes he would jab and then try to follow up with a uppercut to catch Tyson if he was leaning forward.

Ike-Tua: Jab, follow up with left hook, or he would jab, then throw a right cross and then quickly bring his right hand back to guard his chin

Rahman-Tua:Same as above

SBleeder
08-18-2010, 04:15 PM
Considering you cannot find a single second of fight 2 where Leonard fights as in fight 1...

Considering Leonard did not neutralize anything in their first fight...

What you wrote is bs.

Are you kidding me?

You're trying to say that Leonard did not stop Duran's attack in the first fight?

wmute
08-18-2010, 05:16 PM
Are you kidding me?

You're trying to say that Leonard did not stop Duran's attack in the first fight?

Yes. I will be as bold as to say that.

Toney616
08-21-2010, 06:46 AM
True but he moved way too much.
Rounds 10-12
He thought he had the fight won, so he decided to cruise and it cost him dearly

Toney616
08-21-2010, 06:50 AM
i am debating on how useful that would be with the improved version of pac we see these days.
The thing is that since jmm2, Pacquaio has never fought another fight which uses that combination, or even has a straight right hand in their arsenal.

Diaz
Oscar
Hatton
Cotto
Clottey

Are all left hand dominant fighters, with no straight right hand. Margarito on the other hand is a right hand dominant fighter, who uses the left jab, straight right alot. For the record I favour Margarito to win that fight, if it gets made.

Toney616
08-21-2010, 06:57 AM
Ali would avenge his first defeat(twice) in decisive manner.
You class Ali-Frazier II as a decisive win for Ali?

Ray Leonard vs Roerto Duran 2: Showed that Duran couldn't deal with real footwork,that his ability cut off the ring was overrated,as he never really did this in the first fight with Leonard,either.
Interesting point

Also exposed lack of heart of Duran,in quitting rather than take the inevitable beating that he was to receive in the late rounds.
No Mas

Marvin Hagler vs Marcos Geraldo: The usually aggressive Geraldo changed tactics and took Hagler's role as the counter puncher in this fight.Using smart movement and well-placed/timed spurts,Geraldo confused Hagler a great deal.Hagler found a way to win,but it exposed a great ***** in Hagler's armour,which would later be duplicated by Ray Leonard some seven years later.
Good point, that was a hard earned victory for Hagler.

To be honest, no one could of expected a retired welterweight to stand in front of Hagler

RagingTheBull
08-21-2010, 07:13 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that Dirrell exposed Abraham. Abraham was outboxed for 7-8 rounds straight, but and knocked down. I think that everyone will try to use that gameplan against the armenian fighter int the future and I do not know if Abraham will be able to change his style.

Quintana exposed Williams: the american can't deal with slick southpaws, period.

Toney616
08-21-2010, 07:19 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that Dirrell exposed Abraham. Abraham was outboxed for 7-8 rounds straight, but and knocked down. I think that everyone will try to use that gameplan against the armenian fighter int the future and I do not know if Abraham will be able to change his style.
Before that fight, a guy on youtube said that his style leaves him vunerable to getting outworked, the same applied to Winky during his fight with Pwill, where he was just overwhelmed from the first bell.

Quintana exposed Williams: the american can't deal with slick southpaws, period.
I had him losing the Martinez fight as well. When he throws his right, he drops his left, when he throws his left, he drops his right, which is why he was eating counters all night. I reckon Martinez will win their rematch as well, if it takes place

wmute
08-21-2010, 02:00 PM
Rounds 10-12
He thought he had the fight won, so he decided to cruise and it cost him dearly

Sorry I did not express myself clearlty. I meant that he moved too much and wasted energy, all through the fight. That's a typical Oscar mistake. A true master like Hop was able to implement a similar idea much better.

To be honest, DLH clearly won. You are right that he moved around in the late rounds, but that's not what i had in mind.

Toney616
08-21-2010, 02:06 PM
Sorry I did not express myself clearlty. I meant that he moved too much and wasted energy, all through the fight. That's a typical Oscar mistake. A true master like Hop was able to implement a similar idea much better.
True, it was a masterful performance by Hopkins

To be honest, DLH clearly won. You are right that he moved around in the late rounds, but that's not what i had in mind.
ok

$Natedatpkid$
08-21-2010, 02:28 PM
ali was slick now?

This isn't slick?

http://i46.tinypic.com/z09jl.gif

Jermain Taylor kind of laid out the blue print to beat Hopkins or I guess it was just a bad style match up but those two fights tell me that Dawson beats older Hopkins if they fight although I thought Hopkins barely squeezed the 1st fight out although I wasn't shocked at all by the decision or mad because it could of gone either way, it was just a bad style match up for Hopkins. Hopkins likes to pick his spots and take his time to figure you out. But Taylor kept the jab out in his face all night that Hopkins couldn't get into a rhythm until he started letting his hands go later in the fight.

And call me crazy but Andre Ward reminds me of Bernard Hopkins for some reason, anybody agree or disagree with that? I don't know I guess it's because of his great ability to fight inside and outside, but Andre Ward possesses all the skills of Jermain Taylor too so I think based on those two fights, that's why I'm actually leaning toward Ward with the upset in that fight because I think he'll use that jab all night.

If you think I'm dead off please learn meh!

Vadrigar.
08-21-2010, 02:30 PM
My pick is Hamed-Barrera and somewhat Kevin Kelly. I'll explain later on.

Toney616
08-21-2010, 02:38 PM
Jermain Taylor kind of laid out the blue print to beat Hopkins[ or I guess it was just a bad style match up but those two fights tell me that Dawson beats older Hopkins if they fight although I thought Hopkins barely squeezed the 1st fight out although I wasn't shocked at all by the decision or mad because it could of gone either way, it was just a bad style match up for Hopkins. Hopkins likes to pick his spots and take his time to figure you out. But Taylor kept the jab out in his face all night that Hopkins couldn't get into a rhythm until he started letting his hands go later in the fight.
I can agree with this. It was Taylor's ability to close the gap and shoot the double jab which gave Hopkins a lot of problems. Hopkins is used to slipping a single jab and countering, but he couldnt do that against a double jab, and he was caught with the second jab quite a bit. The only way for Hopkins to win was to take the lead and he didnt want to do that, which is why he started fouling to throw Taylor of his gameplan. He only started coming on strong at the end because Taylor started to tire and was getting hit with right hand leads that he had previously been slipping.

I guess the basic outline was not to allow Hopkins to play the role of the counterpuncher and force him to take to lead, which he isnt comfortable doing. Calzaghe would try to overwhelm Hopkins's with his workrate, not give him a chance to counterpunch and try to slip Hopkins, right hand counters/leads

So in that way their basic strategy was similiar

And call me crazy but Andre Ward reminds me of Bernard Hopkins for some reason, anybody agree or disagree with that? I don't know I guess it's because of his great ability to fight inside and outside, but Andre Ward possesses all the skills of Jermain Taylor too so I think based on those two fights, that's why I'm actually leaning toward Ward with the upset in that fight because I think he'll use that jab all night.

If you think I'm dead off please learn meh!
Ward reminded me of Zahir Raheem with some of his moves during his fight with Kessler, he uses headbutts as a form of strategy also, so I guess he is like Hopkins in that way