View Full Version : which one is more difficult...


talip bin osman
08-16-2010, 06:43 AM
dominate in a single weight division (beat "the man", clean up & take on all comers... like duran & monzon...

OR

jump through the weight divisions & collect belts... like dela hoya & pacquiao...?

what say you historians?

#1Assassin
08-16-2010, 06:55 AM
today its much easier to jump through several divisions, i dont think its even up for debate. just look at some of the ppl carrying titles, theres basicly a highly average fighter with a title in each division so u can cherrypick your way to titles in diffrent weightclasses without challenging yourself. back in the day when arguello, hearns and leonard were moving up and down divisions it was a diffrent thing though. they usually went for the best titleholder and even the title holders considered weak could fight their ass of back then.

GJC
08-16-2010, 08:32 AM
today its much easier to jump through several divisions, i dont think its even up for debate. just look at some of the ppl carrying titles, theres basicly a highly average fighter with a title in each division so u can cherrypick your way to titles in diffrent weightclasses without challenging yourself. back in the day when arguello, hearns and leonard were moving up and down divisions it was a diffrent thing though. they usually went for the best titleholder and even the title holders considered weak could fight their ass of back then.
Whilst I think it is impressive to jump out of your comfort zone so to speak and collect titles at other weights as was pointed out it is easy enough to do this without ever challenging "the man" so to speak. Now they have changed the rules of weigh ins it is also easier.
I wouldn't neccessarily rate Pac's 7 as any more impressive than Armstrong's 3 at the same time, plus Armstrong put in a fair number of defences at WW.
Duran also had a dominant reign at LW before moving up so ticked both boxes.

bojangles1987
08-16-2010, 10:08 AM
It depends who the fighter is fighting as they move up in weight. Part of dominating a division for a long time like Hopkins, Jones, and Calzaghe recently did is that there are going to be a lot of outclassed fighters you fight, you will get no credit for.

If the fighter is fighting the best fighters while moving up in weight, that's more impressive to me.

KlownvonnomaD
08-16-2010, 10:15 AM
I think it all depends on how competitive the division is, if there are a few good fighters and a few good looking up and comers then cleaning up the division is very good achevement.

In theory it should be stepping up in weight to fighting naturally bigger and equaly as skilled guys. Sadly that isn't always what happens and alot of guys look to step up, beat the weakest of the 4 champs and either move up again or drop back down.

turdleburgle
08-16-2010, 10:30 AM
its not how many divisions hes fought at its who hes fought and beat.pacs resume is greater than any other fighters of the modern era you just cant ignore it.pacs the only fighter of his era who can say he's right up there with any all time great.




marvin hagler didnt compete in as many divisions as mayweather but hes far greater than mayweather could ever be

sonnyboyx2
08-16-2010, 11:12 AM
its more difficult to move through the divisions like Delahoya & Pacquiao did

Ziggy Stardust
08-16-2010, 12:05 PM
Whilst I think it is impressive to jump out of your comfort zone so to speak and collect titles at other weights as was pointed out it is easy enough to do this without ever challenging "the man" so to speak. Now they have changed the rules of weigh ins it is also easier.
I wouldn't neccessarily rate Pac's 7 as any more impressive than Armstrong's 3 at the same time, plus Armstrong put in a fair number of defences at WW.
Duran also had a dominant reign at LW before moving up so ticked both boxes.

What I give Armstrong credit for is holding those three belts simultaniously.....that isn't something any modern day "belt collector" can claim. I personally prefer to see fighters rule their weight class until biology dictates they can't make the weight anymore.

Poet

Bright-Eyes
08-17-2010, 03:16 AM
Level of opposition counts above all else.There are guys who have won three titles in three different weight classes who were never anything more than good fighters.



Going from weight class to weight class isn't really much of an accomplishment anymore due to the day before the fight weigh-in's.

Megamasterking
08-17-2010, 03:43 AM
What I give Armstrong credit for is holding those three belts simultaniously.....that isn't something any modern day "belt collector" can claim. I personally prefer to see fighters rule their weight class until biology dictates they can't make the weight anymore.

Poet
Good post !
If it comes difficult for you to make the weight, then you go up and try your best. A lot of factors are involved here, like if you move up and find an ATG in his prime ready to decapitate you, would it be wiser to stay in your division and dominate. There is no shame in dominating only one division, i prefer that to many belts won against grandpa's in different weight divisions...

Heru
08-17-2010, 03:58 AM
dominate in a single weight division (beat "the man", clean up & take on all comers... like duran & monzon...

OR

jump through the weight divisions & collect belts... like dela hoya & pacquiao...?

what say you historians?

How about dominate in a single weight division and jump through weight classes like Duran?

It's honestly harder to dominate a single weight division because when you can go to a given division and fight a David Diaz and then claim you were a champ, it's easy for even a good fighter that can carry the weight to do, let alone a great fighter. Just look at Humberto Soto.

talip bin osman
08-17-2010, 04:15 AM
How about dominate in a single weight division and jump through weight classes like Duran?

It's honestly harder to dominate a single weight division because when you can go to a given division and fight a David Diaz and then claim you were a champ, it's easy for even a good fighter that can carry the weight to do, let alone a great fighter. Just look at Humberto Soto.

calzaghe over MP?

pudwill over davd diaz??

Heru
08-17-2010, 04:18 AM
calzaghe over MP?

No because Pac beat a few Hofers while he was jumping through weight classes. He's a legit 4 division champ and Calzaghe's a legit 2 division champ.

Juce
08-17-2010, 05:45 AM
Professional boxing is watching, 35, who see who fear came at the age of 40 May see who fear. HuoYa so fat also were killed, tyson's Krishna, was finally third-rate once unbeatable player. But if he's back, kratos, and richie between winners will probably go to dozen mayweather.

Left2body
08-17-2010, 05:55 AM
today its much easier to jump through several divisions, i dont think its even up for debate. just look at some of the ppl carrying titles, theres basicly a highly average fighter with a title in each division so u can cherrypick your way to titles in diffrent weightclasses without challenging yourself. back in the day when arguello, hearns and leonard were moving up and down divisions it was a diffrent thing though. they usually went for the best titleholder and even the title holders considered weak could fight their ass of back then.

Great post. Back then there was A Champion, now there are Titlist. (Green K) However that just highlights the difference between multi-weight champions of yesteryear to those of today.

Back to the OP.....It really depends on the fighter, his division and his agenda/motivation. If your leaving a loaded division then the answer is staying in the same weight class is harder. If your leaving a cleaned out division to fight against the Champion(s) (Not titlist)of a higher weight then going up in weight is harder.

There are many examples of both.

Left2body
08-17-2010, 06:17 AM
What I give Armstrong credit for is holding those three belts simultaniously.....that isn't something any modern day "belt collector" can claim. I personally prefer to see fighters rule their weight class until biology dictates they can't make the weight anymore.

Poet

Not always my friend. I would've prefered to have seen Kosta Tzu try his hand in a loaded WW class. Or to have seen Hopkins step up in the 90's and fight at 168lbs against Nigel Benn, Gerald McClellan, Chris Eubank or to rematch RJJ fight Michael Nunn, James Toney......etc etc.

You can't tell me you prefer him defending (not even unifying) the IBF titles for years to him going up in weight?

Ziggy Stardust
08-17-2010, 09:45 AM
Not always my friend. I would've prefered to have seen Kosta Tzu try his hand in a loaded WW class. Or to have seen Hopkins step up in the 90's and fight at 168lbs against Nigel Benn, Gerald McClellan, Chris Eubank or to rematch RJJ fight Michael Nunn, James Toney......etc etc.

You can't tell me you prefer him defending (not even unifying) the IBF titles for years to him going up in weight?

Hand in hand with it is my preference for 8 weight classes and 1 title per weight class :)

Poet

Toney616
08-17-2010, 03:12 PM
I personally prefer to see fighters rule their weight class until biology dictates they can't make the weight anymore.

Poet
What aspect of biology decides when a fighter should move up?

Left2body
08-17-2010, 06:35 PM
What aspect of biology decides when a fighter should move up?

I think its pretty clear that many fighters are forced out of weight classes because they just can't competitively make the weight anymore. Castillo, Corrales, Morales and Cotto are all good examples of this. Its different with each fighter though.

Jabroni
05-14-2011, 05:33 AM
Cleaning out a division is always good and taking on mandatories. How about moving down in weight and challenging the divisions lower than you? That seems to get less credit around here if any, but I would imagine it is just as difficult due to having to adjust to your body.

House of Stone
05-14-2011, 06:11 AM
if there was the proper number of weight classes it wouldn't even be an issue I mean take middle and super middle. Just have a broadened middleweight division - Hopkins, Jones,Toney, Benn,Collins, Eubank,Calzaghe, etc would all be in a broadening middleweight class and then just one mother****ing belt to fight over ... simple. Having too many weight classes and too many belts just gives excuses for the best not to fight eachother there'd be no question of who's dominating the division or whatever there'd be THE champ and the rest.

Today you'd have the super six guys plus Pavlik,Williams, Martinez etc ... it would be an awesome division and thats just one example.

As for jumping a weight class that should be a real big deal. And back in the day it was, each divison was a proper division in of itself well seperated from the division directly above and below and each division had a champion - today each division has a bunch of dudes lets call em 'belt holders' and just you try and pick 3 or 4 divisions and name THE CHAMPION in each. So guys like pac or floyd can go up through a bunch of weight classes fight a guy who might only be 3rd or 4th best at the weight and then claim to be a world title holder at that weight ... fair enough they are but they are not THE CHAMPION.

Ziggy Stardust
05-14-2011, 01:31 PM
if there was the proper number of weight classes it wouldn't even be an issue I mean take middle and super middle. Just have a broadened middleweight division - Hopkins, Jones,Toney, Benn,Collins, Eubank,Calzaghe, etc would all be in a broadening middleweight class and then just one mother****ing belt to fight over ... simple. Having too many weight classes and too many belts just gives excuses for the best not to fight eachother there'd be no question of who's dominating the division or whatever there'd be THE champ and the rest.

Today you'd have the super six guys plus Pavlik,Williams, Martinez etc ... it would be an awesome division and thats just one example.

As for jumping a weight class that should be a real big deal. And back in the day it was, each divison was a proper division in of itself well seperated from the division directly above and below and each division had a champion - today each division has a bunch of dudes lets call em 'belt holders' and just you try and pick 3 or 4 divisions and name THE CHAMPION in each. So guys like pac or floyd can go up through a bunch of weight classes fight a guy who might only be 3rd or 4th best at the weight and then claim to be a world title holder at that weight ... fair enough they are but they are not THE CHAMPION.

I've been saying that for the better part of 20 years! Great post.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
05-14-2011, 01:36 PM
What aspect of biology decides when a fighter should move up?

Age. Once you get past a certain age it gets harder and harder to keep the weight off. It's even worse if you blow up between fights. The primary reason Duran moved up to Welter from Lightweight is he found he couldn't take the weight off as easily as he could in his early to mid 20s.

Poet