View Full Version : Top 5 boxers off all time based on heart


irishdude
08-07-2010, 08:47 PM
My top 5 are:

Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
Evander Holyfield
Roberto Duran
Rocky Marciano


I know I edged a bit towards heavyweight ranking than solely based on heart, but this is my top 5.

SBleeder
08-07-2010, 09:37 PM
My top 5 are:

Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
Evander Holyfield
Roberto Duran
Rocky Marciano


I know I edged a bit towards heavyweight ranking than solely based on heart, but this is my top 5.

Roberto Duran flat out quit in the middle of a fight... exactly how can he rank ahead of guys like Hagler, Ricardo Lopez, Vinnie Paz etc.?

Miburo
08-07-2010, 09:41 PM
Chacon, Vazquez, Robinson, Holyfield...Bowe, maybe Morales

prinzemanspopa
08-07-2010, 10:12 PM
Interesting to see a list highlighting fighters with heart and then some containing fighters who did quit.


Now,I'm not judging these men,they're not cowards or anything of the sort,but why name these fighters rather than fighters who would never dare quit in a ring?



Could you imagine Vargas or Margarito quitting because of a broken nose? Or quitting as early as the third round? Personally,I just couldn't imagine it.



I couldn't imagine a Matt Franklin quitting simply because his opponent was fighting a style that severely limited his strengths.




I don't think fighters who blatantly ducked punchers his entire career are "warriors",either.Tough guys? Sure.But let's not go overboard

The Nimble Guru
08-07-2010, 10:13 PM
Gatti and Nigel Benn deserve honourable mentions. Both limited fighters but as brave as bulls.

elfag
08-08-2010, 03:55 PM
I love how when Morales would get tagged he would come forward with fury looking for retaliation.


Also I would have to mention Hearns was all heart. You could see it in his eyes before the fight he just wanted to kill the other guy. Yeah he got stopped but it was Hearns who went bat **** crazy on Hagler from the opening bell.

Even in the SRL fight, I remember SRL saying in his corner after one of the first rounds "hes trying to knock me out" he was pretty surprised.

I liked that how he would go all out from round one like that.

BigStereotype
08-08-2010, 08:05 PM
I love how when Morales would get tagged he would come forward with fury looking for retaliation.


Him and Barrera both ****ing hated getting punched. Not like they were afraid, it just pissed them off so bad. That's why their fights were so great - they would hit each other and the other guy would try to show how much bigger his balls were.

I don't know if I can narrow it down to 5, but in terms of big hearts, I see it like this in no particular order...

Arturo Gatti
Meldrick Taylor
Evander Holyfield
Muhammad Ali
Julio Cesar Chavez
Micky Ward
Marvin Hagler
Rocky Marciano
Marco Antonio Barrera
Erik Morales

All of these guys would fight with half their faces hanging off, they didn't give a ****.

MeccaOfBoxing
08-09-2010, 06:15 AM
Shocked to see no mention of Carmon Basilo

Vadrigar.
08-09-2010, 06:29 AM
Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, SRR, Gerald Mcclellan etc...

Vadrigar.
08-09-2010, 06:31 AM
Shocked to see no mention of Carmon Basilo

watch this highlight of his fight with SRR, amazing:

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I agree he showed a lot of heart in this one.

frankenfrank
08-09-2010, 06:41 AM
Interesting to see a list highlighting fighters with heart and then some containing fighters who did quit.


Now,I'm not judging these men,they're not cowards or anything of the sort,but why name these fighters rather than fighters who would never dare quit in a ring?



Could you imagine Vargas or Margarito quitting because of a broken nose? Or quitting as early as the third round? Personally,I just couldn't imagine it.



I couldn't imagine a Matt Franklin quitting simply because his opponent was fighting a style that severely limited his strengths.




I don't think fighters who blatantly ducked punchers his entire career are "warriors",either.Tough guys? Sure.But let's not go overboard
Margarito was a cheater , he could always count on his loaded gloves to win him the fight . It gave him a (justified) belief in his illegally enhanced abilities . Such a cheater is a bad example.

frankenfrank
08-09-2010, 06:59 AM
My top 5 are:

Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
Evander Holyfield
Roberto Duran
Rocky Marciano


I know I edged a bit towards heavyweight ranking than solely based on heart, but this is my top 5.

Duran quit against Leonard in their rematch , this disqualifies him from the ludicrous ranking of top 5 all time in terms of heart.

One must consider Sam Langford , but I can't judge according 2 only 2 youtube vids of him I saw which were not even against elite opposition of his own time.

My (current) list :
(1) Evander Holyfield
(2) Chris Byrd
(3) James Toney
(4) Iran Barkley
(5) Merqui Sosa

Hassim Rahman , Sam Peter , Ross Puritty , Oleg Maskaev , George Chuvalo , Jerry Quarry , Oscar Bonavena , Joe Frazier , Jimmy Ellis , George Foreman ,
Ron Lyle , Muhammad Ali , Ken Norton , Steve Collins , Gerald McClellan , Julian Jackson , Prince Charles Williams , Nigel Benn , Michael Watson , Chris Eubanks , O'neil Bell , Ronald Wright , Shane Mosley and Mike McCallum are also good examples for heart .

BigStereotype
08-09-2010, 08:16 AM
Margarito was a cheater , he could always count on his nearly loaded gloves to win him the fight . It gave him a (justified) belief in his illegally enhanced abilities . Such a cheater is a bad example.

No way, man, that's ridiculous. Saying that his loaded gloves helped his chin and heart? Think about that. It's just silly. Now what he did against Mosley was despicable, but I think that it was the first time and he just pulled it for the wrong fight. Brother Naazim is one sly dude. But if you watch the Cotto fight, an absolutely freakish display of chin and heart, he wins that one by sapping Cotto's will half with his punches and half with his ability to take everything. He landed almost 250 punches (237, to be precise). If you land that much and you have even a little punch, you're going to do damage. Also, the very first thing he does is take his gloves off and raise his hands. If you had just won a title with illegally loaded wraps, wouldn't you want to keep those covered until you could take them off? It doesn't make any sense that he would risk exposing himself in his moment of triumph. And then, to further that case, the ref grabs him right on the hand and raises it. No mention of any wraps from Kenny Bayless, right?

any craic lad?
08-09-2010, 08:31 AM
No way, man, that's ridiculous. Saying that his loaded gloves helped his chin and heart? Think about that. It's just silly. Now what he did against Mosley was despicable, but I think that it was the first time and he just pulled it for the wrong fight. Brother Naazim is one sly dude. But if you watch the Cotto fight, an absolutely freakish display of chin and heart, he wins that one by sapping Cotto's will half with his punches and half with his ability to take everything. He landed almost 250 punches (237, to be precise). If you land that much and you have even a little punch, you're going to do damage. Also, the very first thing he does is take his gloves off and raise his hands. If you had just won a title with illegally loaded wraps, wouldn't you want to keep those covered until you could take them off? It doesn't make any sense that he would risk exposing himself in his moment of triumph. And then, to further that case, the ref grabs him right on the hand and raises it. No mention of any wraps from Kenny Bayless, right?

Bingo people just want to hate on Margarito continously the guy had trmendous heart chin and stamina levels thats what made him great if he had plaster of paris couple that in with his punch output some guys shouldnt be able to fight again but no all of his biggest wins have gone onto big things in boxing after fighting him.Cotto showed some serious balls in that fight too now i wouldnt rate him as having one of the greatest hearts ever but he sure does have one of the best of his generation.

frankenfrank
08-09-2010, 09:39 AM
No way, man, that's ridiculous. Saying that his loaded gloves helped his chin and heart? Think about that. It's just silly. Now what he did against Mosley was despicable, but I think that it was the first time and he just pulled it for the wrong fight. Brother Naazim is one sly dude. But if you watch the Cotto fight, an absolutely freakish display of chin and heart, he wins that one by sapping Cotto's will half with his punches and half with his ability to take everything. He landed almost 250 punches (237, to be precise). If you land that much and you have even a little punch, you're going to do damage. Also, the very first thing he does is take his gloves off and raise his hands. If you had just won a title with illegally loaded wraps, wouldn't you want to keep those covered until you could take them off? It doesn't make any sense that he would risk exposing himself in his moment of triumph. And then, to further that case, the ref grabs him right on the hand and raises it. No mention of any wraps from Kenny Bayless, right?
Edited my post : Margachito's gloves were not nealry loaded (Which Chito Trinidad's were) but loaded .

Why do u think Mosley was the first one ?
Look at Cotto's face after their fight.
And Cotto was shot indeed after that fight , Margachito ended Cotto's prime with his cheat.

How do u want it 2b seen when he raises his hands ?
Both the gloves and the wraps block its sight .
And how do u want the ref 2 detect it when he holds Margachito's arm ?
The loaded wraps are not on his arm they are on his 2 layer (or more) covered fists.

BattlingNelson
08-09-2010, 09:48 AM
All of you ignoring the old-timers has got it wrong. We are talking about fighters up to 45 rounds with 4 ounce horsehair gloves in scorching sun! How can 12 round fighters of this day be tougher?

The toughest fighters of yesterday >>>> the toughest fighters of today all day and every day.

NChristo
08-09-2010, 10:10 AM
All of you ignoring the old-timers has got it wrong. We are talking about fighters up to 45 rounds with 4 ounce horsehair gloves in scorching sun! How can 12 round fighters of this day be tougher?

The toughest fighters of yesterday >>>> the toughest fighters of today all day and every day.

Always amazed when I read about Battling Nelson - Joe Gans, what they did seems inhuman, especially with Nelson.

sonnyboyx2
08-09-2010, 10:48 AM
Mike Tyson had the heart of a Lion

SBleeder
08-09-2010, 10:54 AM
Mike Tyson had the heart of a Lion

:fest30:

He quit against Holyfield and quit on his stool against McBride. He lost nearly every competitive fight he was ever in and never won a fight he wasn't supposed to win. He also lost several fights he was supposed to win easily.

Tyson fans are so delusional it's not even funny. Either that, or there are some pretty cowardly lions at your zoo.

HaglerSteelChin
08-09-2010, 11:43 AM
Edited my post : Margachito's gloves were not nealry loaded (Which Chito Trinidad's were) but loaded .

Why do u think Mosley was the first one ?
Look at Cotto's face after their fight.
And Cotto was shot indeed after that fight , Margachito ended Cotto's prime with his cheat.

How do u want it 2b seen when he raises his hands ?
Both the gloves and the wraps block its sight .
And how do u want the ref 2 detect it when he holds Margachito's arm ?
The loaded wraps are not on his arm they are on his 2 layer (or more) covered fists.

Truer words couldn't be spoken. If you look at the video after the Cotto fight, his wraps look very heavy and even a pinkish substance that Emanuel Steward "didn't recognizance" was shown on pictures after the fight. People say if he is guilty why take the gloves off, that is like a criminal who burglarizes a house, do you expect them to run or walk gingerly? If they run out of the house it makes them look more suspicious, if they steal jewerly they could it put in a bag walk cautiously away from the scene.

Here is the thing what people fail to understand. I myself don't know if Margs used the plaster of paris many times? But if he was using it than the blows he gave the opponents took the wind out of them and snap off their punches, as a result your chin takes less degree of punishment.

We do know that Margs had no plaster against Mosley, and now all of sudden his chin can't absorb the punishment. All of a sudden........he gets KTFO. Just a coincidence?

BigStereotype
08-09-2010, 04:08 PM
Why do u think Mosley was the first one ?

Margarito needs to be in a very specific mindset the way he fights. Having a chin like that isn't purely physical - a lot of it is mental. Since he was distracted, it detracted a lot from his ability to take a punch. Mosley beat him fair and square, but it was obvious that he wasn't the same animal that ate Cotto a few months earlier.


Look at Cotto's face after their fight.
And Cotto was shot indeed after that fight , Margachito ended Cotto's prime with his cheat.


http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00791/00hatto_280x390_791591a.jpg

Were John Thaxton's gloves loaded? Fighters get cut up, fighters swell. It
s what happens when you get hit 250 times, bricks or no.


How do u want it 2b seen when he raises his hands ?
Both the gloves and the wraps block its sight .
And how do u want the ref 2 detect it when he holds Margachito's arm ?
The loaded wraps are not on his arm they are on his 2 layer (or more) covered fists.

The gloves would have blocked it, you're right. But he took them off, like I clearly stated in my post. And the ref didn't grab him on the arm, he grabbed him right on the hand and thrust his hand in the air. Now if his hands felt like bricks there, wouldn't Kenny Bayless have noticed?

prinzemanspopa
08-09-2010, 04:59 PM
Truer words couldn't be spoken. If you look at the video after the Cotto fight, his wraps look very heavy and even a pinkish substance that Emanuel Steward "didn't recognizance" was shown on pictures after the fight.




Emanuel Steward is a network puppet with no credibility.The pinkish strain found on Margarito's wraps means absolutely nothing.It's been found on the wraps of many fighters,Diego Corrales and Vic Ortiz included:


http://i49.tinypic.com/2003g94.jpg


http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=362128


Here is the thing what people fail to understand. I myself don't know if Margs used the plaster of paris many times? But if he was using it than the blows he gave the opponents took the wind out of them and snap off their punches, as a result your chin takes less degree of punishment.

We do know that Margs had no plaster against Mosley, and now all of sudden his chin can't absorb the punishment. All of a sudden........he gets KTFO. Just a coincidence?





Unfortunately for you,the fight with Cotto was broadcast all over the world.We saw Cotto rip Margarito with vicious shots throughout.The punches were there for all to see and they were landing about as clean as a fighter could wish for.



For you to criticize him for not being able to stand up after being beaten with an inch of his life is disgusting and an absolute disgrace.He proved his chin by absorbing as many shots as he did or nine rounds.No other fighter could have withstood that punishment and have remained on their feet for as long as he did.



In future,stick to topics that you're slightly less more stupid and ignorant on.

frankenfrank
08-09-2010, 05:08 PM
Margarito needs to be in a very specific mindset the way he fights. Having a chin like that isn't purely physical - a lot of it is mental. Since he was distracted, it detracted a lot from his ability to take a punch. Mosley beat him fair and square, but it was obvious that he wasn't the same animal that ate Cotto a few months earlier.


http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00791/00hatto_280x390_791591a.jpg

Were John Thaxton's gloves loaded? Fighters get cut up, fighters swell. It
s what happens when you get hit 250 times, bricks or no.


I was not interested in watching that fight after Margachito was exposed , so I leave it to others to answer why a 28 years old Cotto was bruised the way he was , and a 38 years old Mosley was not and it's not even that Mosley was considered "prime" after his previous loss to that same Cotto.


The gloves would have blocked it, you're right. But he took them off, like I clearly stated in my post. And the ref didn't grab him on the arm, he grabbed him right on the hand and thrust his hand in the air. Now if his hands felt like bricks there, wouldn't Kenny Bayless have noticed?

Is it such a standing out thing that you can feel it when holding the hand weakly ? not like receiving it into the face , plus , did the ref hold his fist ?

frankenfrank
08-09-2010, 05:20 PM
Emanuel Steward is a network puppet with no credibility.The pinkish strain found on Margarito's wraps means absolutely nothing.It's been found on the wraps of many fighters,Diego Corrales and Vic Ortiz included:


http://i49.tinypic.com/2003g94.jpg


http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=362128


Good mention , Diego "El mouthpiece spitter"/"Chito" Corralles .
You know if someone was not caught , it does not mean he is innocent ,
especially when dealing with one of the greatest mouthpiece spitters of all time. and who knows what more about him ?
In the recent 10 days , I watched dozens of fights I did not see before , and
since then I have flashbacks of pausing fights for retying the gloves and picking up mouthpieces , and only then low blows and headbutts (no Holyfield fights as I watched almost all of them even before , no Hopkins , Honeyghan and Holt either )

Carlos Ortiz still does not interest me.





Unfortunately for you,the fight with Cotto was broadcast all over the world.We saw Cotto rip Margarito with vicious shots throughout.The punches were there for all to see and they were landing about as clean as a fighter could wish for.



For you to criticize him for not being able to stand up after being beaten with an inch of his life is disgusting and an absolute disgrace.He proved his chin by absorbing as many shots as he did or nine rounds.No other fighter could have withstood that punishment and have remained on their feet for as long as he did.



In future,stick to topics that you're slightly less more stupid and ignorant on.
Margarito proved he had a chin .
But what stopped Cotto were Margarito's loaded gloves , or otherwise Cotto could have coasted to victory.

BigStereotype
08-09-2010, 05:21 PM
1. Yes, the ref held his fist. Watch the fight again - it's epic, regardless of the circumstances.
2. Why the **** would Mosley look anything like Cotto? Margarito landed 237 punches on Cotto and 108 on Mosley. Also, Mosley's never had problems cutting or swelling like Cotto does.

BattlingNelson
08-09-2010, 05:51 PM
Emanuel Steward is a network puppet with no credibility.The pinkish strain found on Margarito's wraps means absolutely nothing.It's been found on the wraps of many fighters,Diego Corrales and Vic Ortiz included:


http://i49.tinypic.com/2003g94.jpg



Indeed it has and it probably stems from the colouring of the leather (don't know the english words).

Still the fact remains that Margarito was caught with hardened gauze and plasterlike material before Mosley. And it must raise suspicions about him using illegal handwraps for other fights as well.

BigStereotype
08-09-2010, 06:27 PM
Oh he's surely lost the benefit of the doubt, but I'm just saying that I'm fairly confident that he didn't cheat against Cotto based on the evidence I have. And I'll take even a bit of evidence over speculation any day.

frankenfrank
08-09-2010, 06:28 PM
1. Yes, the ref held his fist. Watch the fight again - it's epic, regardless of the circumstances.

But again , even when you hold a still padded fist weakly , you can't feel it like someone who gets it full force into the face ! or even into other places.


2. Why the **** would Mosley look anything like Cotto? Margarito landed 237 punches on Cotto and 108 on Mosley. Also, Mosley's never had problems cutting or swelling like Cotto does.

(1) And since when does Cotto have a tendency to cut ? since after that fight , or before ? I did watch Cotto's fight against Mosley , although it was a year ago , and I don't remember anything special.

(2) Even fighters whom did not have the tendency to cut become such after
they aged (which Mosley certainly did , he has wrinkles on his face !)
and went through the wear and tear that also come with the time.

BigStereotype
08-09-2010, 06:32 PM
It's definitely true that the ref holding his hand is not conclusive. But it's something, I think. And Cotto cut bad against Ricardo Torres, another big one over his left eye.

Also, you don't remember anything special about Cotto-Mosley? Those two went to war! The first 8 rounds were the two of them trying to win it on pure balls and they were the biggest punchers in the WW division at the time. Like Kellerman said, they just felt if they threw punches a little bit harder, they'd put the other one away. And they kept trying. Cotto got a little tired and started dancing away, but it's one of my favorite fights. And I haven't watched it in a little while, but I'm fairly sure Cotto cut in both that fight and the Zab Judah fight, both before his war with Margarito.

HaglerSteelChin
08-09-2010, 07:15 PM
@Prinzemana-troll

you have been banned 6 times but for some reason you keep coming back for more..

Who is more an expert you or Steward?

Also i have the fight the wraps were never taken off, only the gloves, and the wraps looked excessive. Those wraps were never removed.

Margarito has never been knocked out until the MOsley fight- That is a fact. Trinidad was never knocked out until the Hopkins fight, two fighters who had to re-wrap due to the athletic commissions. Even guys like CLottey who is durable ran from margocheoto in the last rounds of their fight, Paul Williams who has an 82 inch reach used his jab and didn't taste as much punishment as Cotto.

Margarito knocked out Cintron twice with BODY shots, a guy who never was knocked out. Did you see the last fight Margarito had? He hit Garcia with body shots and couldnt do nothing, in fact Garcia mocked him and even hit his own stomach and laughed at Margs, because the punches did nothing to him. All of sudden Margs power is reduced to shell of its former self. Also power is something fighters retain unlike speed and reflexes.

Of Course only a low life troll who was a failed abortion attempt would fancy to defend a KNOWN cheater and not question his wins, kind of like Par for the course mate?

HaglerSteelChin
08-09-2010, 07:25 PM
On padding, the plaster is not hardened until the later rounds, so it wont be felt on the gloves easily in the beginning.

In fact, in one of the later rounds Margs corner told him in spanish "your punches should be very solid by now"? Of course Margocheoto apologists will argue those words meant nothing, and let's give a known cheater who has no boxing license the benefit of the doubt.

BigStereotype
08-09-2010, 07:29 PM
@Prinzemana-troll

you have been banned 6 times but for some reason you keep coming back for more..

Who is more an expert you or Steward? What is the subtance? Is it blood or what is it? SInce you are an expert please tell me? I have seen it before, what are the origins of it?

Also i have the fight the wraps were never taken off, only the gloves, and the wraps looked excessive.

Margarito has never been knocked out until the MOsley fight- That is a fact. Trinidad was never knocked out until the Hopkins fight, two fighters who had to re-wrap due to the athletic commissions. Even guys like CLottey who is durable ran from margocheoto in the last rounds of their fight, Paul Williams who has an 82 inch reach used his jab and didn't taste as much punishment as Cotto.

Margarito knocked out Cintron twice with BODY shots, a guy who never was knocked out. Did you see the last fight Margarito had? He hit Garcia with body shots and couldnt do nothing, in fact Garcia mocked him and even hit his own stomach and laughed at Margs, because the punches did nothing to him. All of sudden Margs power is reduced to shell of its former self. Also power is something fighters retain unlike speed and reflexes.

Of Course only a low life troll who was a failed abortion attempt would fancy to defend a KNOWN cheater and not question his wins, kind of like Par for the course mate?

Dude **** off. I'm a failed abortion too? Because I'm defending Margarito even more staunchly than Prinze. And we're not defending his conduct in the Mosley fight because that's frankly indefensible. But just because he ****ed up bad in one fight does not taint the rest of his career. Now I didn't watch the Garcia fight so I can't comment on his power since his suspension, but I did see the Cintron fight and he beat Kermit the Frog on volume, not one-punch power. He wore him down. Body shot KO's aren't that uncommon, you know. Say what you want about Oscar, he's a real tiger and he got KO'd on one big body shot from Hopkins, who isn't a huge puncher. And have you ever taken off boxing gloves? When you do, there are little red flakes everywhere. EVERYWHERE. And if your hands are wet enough, those little red flakes can dye your hands/wraps/whatever red.

HaglerSteelChin
08-09-2010, 07:50 PM
Dude **** off. I'm a failed abortion too? Because I'm defending Margarito even more staunchly than Prinze. And we're not defending his conduct in the Mosley fight because that's frankly indefensible. But just because he ****ed up bad in one fight does not taint the rest of his career. Now I didn't watch the Garcia fight so I can't comment on his power since his suspension, but I did see the Cintron fight and he beat Kermit the Frog on volume, not one-punch power. He wore him down. Body shot KO's aren't that uncommon, you know. Say what you want about Oscar, he's a real tiger and he got KO'd on one big body shot from Hopkins, who isn't a huge puncher. And have you ever taken off boxing gloves? When you do, there are little red flakes everywhere. EVERYWHERE. And if your hands are wet enough, those little red flakes can dye your hands/wraps/whatever red.

Are you mexican? Sounds fishy. No need for profanity unless it is mano to mano or bravo to bravo. If not, than please put me on ignore as many of the newbies do. No need for profanity here.

It works both ways, you can't say margs cheated or didnt cheat in his prior fights, but it looks very suspicous that his first KO loss comes after he is forced to re wrap.

Also it shows your logic? DLH started as a 130 Pound fighter and was fighting in his 6th weight class when he got knocked out, and his body was not a natural MW. DLH body was much softer as a MW, that is common for guys to move up and get knocked out. Jose Napoles got KTFO by Monzon, Arguello a tough bastard got knocked out moving up his 4th weight class. DIFFERENCE Cintron was a big welterweight, the analogy is silly. Cintron was not fighting in his 6th weight class.

Cintron said he never was hit as hard or before as the margocheoto fights. Can we say for 100% certain- no but the suspcion is there.

Cotto got hit with many flush shots by guys like Torres and didn't swell as bad as that fight. In fact, he said he needed 2 weeks for his face to stop swelling, that was much longer than Mosley, Torres, and Corley who wobbled him.

Most of the blood you see in the early cotto fights are from head butts.

Does it taint his entire career? No but it does put into question many of his wins, nobody can say if he used illegal substances or not, but i wont give him the benefit of the doubt. We will see how much power he has now, if he still knocks guys out with one body shot than it wll add credibility to some of the past wins, if he looks like he did against Garcia who mocked his punching power than many will question his career

BigStereotype
08-09-2010, 07:53 PM
On padding, the plaster is not hardened until the later rounds, so it wont be felt on the gloves easily in the beginning.

In fact, in one of the later rounds Margs corner told him in spanish "your punches should be very solid by now"? Of course Margocheoto apologists will argue those words meant nothing, and let's give a known cheater who has no boxing license the benefit of the doubt.

Except that was through an interpreter. Capetillo said "duro" which means hard or strong. But I wouldn't expect a blinded by biased moron to know that. I already said he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. In those words, actually. You're not saying anything that hasn't been said before and by much smarter folks than you. So **** you, go drown.

BigStereotype
08-09-2010, 07:58 PM
Are you mexican? Sounds fishy. No need for profanity unless it is mano to mano or bravo to bravo. If not, than please put me on ignore as many of the newbies do. No need for profanity here.

It works both ways, you can't say margs cheated or didnt cheat in his prior fights, but it looks very suspicous that his first KO loss comes after he is forced to re wrap.

Also it shows your logic? DLH started as a 130 Pound fighter and was fighting in his 6th weight class when he got knocked out, and his body was not a natural MW. DLH body was much softer as a MW, that is common for guys to move up and get knocked out. Jose Napoles got KTFO by Monzon, Arguello a tough bastard got knocked out moving up his 4th weight class. DIFFERENCE Cintron was a big welterweight, the analogy is silly. Cintron was not fighting in his 6th weight class.

Cintron said he never was hit as hard or before as the margocheoto fights. Can we say for 100% certain- no but the suspcion is there.

Cotto got hit with many flush shots by guys like Torres and didn't swell as bad as that fight. In fact, he said he needed 2 weeks for his face to stop swelling, that was much longer than Mosley, Torres, and Corley who wobbled him.

Most of the blood you see in the early cotto fights are from head butts.

Does it taint his entire career? No but it does put into question many of his wins, nobody can say if he used illegal substances or not, but i wont give him the benefit of the doubt. We will see how much power he has now, if he still knocks guys out with one body shot than it wll add credibility to some of the past wins, if he looks like he did against Garcia who mocked his punching power than many will question his career

So what if I am Mexican? Look at my favorite fighters. Cotto is number two. And DLH might have started as a 130 lber, but he was a natural JMW, I'd say. He wasn't that small a middleweight and I think that Margarito is a bigger P4P puncher than Hopkins. Also, Hoya's heart is SO much bigger than Cintron's it's not even funny. And as to profanity, I will curse if you insult me, especially in the way you did. That's a ****ed up thing to say to anybody.

HaglerSteelChin
08-09-2010, 08:07 PM
So what if I am Mexican? Look at my favorite fighters. Cotto is number two. And DLH might have started as a 130 lber, but he was a natural JMW, I'd say. He wasn't that small a middleweight and I think that Margarito is a bigger P4P puncher than Hopkins. Also, Hoya's heart is SO much bigger than Cintron's it's not even funny. And as to profanity, I will curse if you insult me, especially in the way you did. That's a ****ed up thing to say to anybody.

Of course you are mexican. It shows who is less bias, as i have two mexicans among my favorite fighters, and TOTALLY trash Trinidad although i share some heritage with him.

DLH took very solid punches his entire career, i mean guys like Quartay , Trinidad, Mosley, and even Chavez tagged him very hard(2nd fight), but he never got knocked out until he was a middleweight. Even as an bloke taking shot after shot from pac he didnt get knockdown, but retired on the stool. DLH was never a Middleweight, and even the gift win against Felix Sturm was not a real win, and even most fans of him would agree with that.

Also the abortion thing was with Prinzamanotroll who has a histroy of bannings and fighting with many posters. He has beef with Mickelymalone, Poet, Jab, to name a few. She is a tough British Streetfighter from the East End, so why you need to defend her? Perhaps you need to let your lover to defend herself.

BigStereotype
08-09-2010, 08:23 PM
Of course you are mexican. It shows who is less bias, as i have two mexicans among my favorite fighters, and TOTALLY trash Trinidad although i share some heritage with him.

DLH took very solid punches his entire career, i mean guys like Quartay , Trinidad, Mosley, and even Chavez tagged him very hard(2nd fight), but he never got knocked out until he was a middleweight. Even as an bloke taking shot after shot from pac he didnt get knockdown, but retired on the stool. DLH was never a Middleweight, and even the gift win against Felix Sturm was not a real win, and even most fans of him would agree with that.

Also the abortion thing was with Prinzamanotroll who has a histroy of bannings and fighting with many posters. He has beef with Mickelymalone, Poet, Jab, to name a few. She is a tough British Streetfighter from the East End, so why you need to defend her? Perhaps you need to let your lover to defend herself.

I don't really know what you're getting at here. I'm a Mexican with a Rican as my second favorite fighter. And Cotto is awfully close to eclipsing Marquez, I'll tell you that. So no, I'm not biased. I like Mexican fighters, yes, but I try to be pretty objective with what I'm saying and I feel like I'm pretty good at admitting when I can't. And De La Hoya getting knocked out by one solid body-punch by a less than spectacular puncher was exactly my point. He was a ridiculously tough dude and Hopkins froze him up. So Margarito doing that to Cintron really doesn't say much.

I'm not defending Prinze here, I'm responding to your little quip that anybody who would defend Margarito was a failed abortion. I defended Margarito, sorta. Seriously over the line. But if I pissed you off by cursing, I'm sorry. I don't want to fight, I just have a temper. So I apologize. I'm perfectly willing to have a boxing discussion with you.

frankenfrank
08-10-2010, 02:33 AM
It's definitely true that the ref holding his hand is not conclusive. But it's something, I think. And Cotto cut bad against Ricardo Torres, another big one over his left eye.

Nearly as bad as he was against Margachito ?

Also, you don't remember anything special about Cotto-Mosley? Those two went to war! The first 8 rounds were the two of them trying to win it on pure balls and they were the biggest punchers in the WW division at the time. Like Kellerman said, they just felt if they threw punches a little bit harder, they'd put the other one away. And they kept trying. Cotto got a little tired and started dancing away, but it's one of my favorite fights. And I haven't watched it in a little while, but I'm fairly sure Cotto cut in both that fight and the Zab Judah fight, both before his war with Margarito.

When I wrote "nothing special" I meant t in the context of blood n cuts , and you were supposed to know it.
Also , I did not remember it as an especially boring fight either , and I watched lots of other wars as well , so I could even mean what I did not mean.
And it was a year ago , as I already wrote .
And after you claim they both tried to win it on pure balls for the first 8 rounds , how come Cotto was not cut nearly as bad as he was against Margachito ?
(1) No one cut Cotto nearly as bad as Margachito before
(2) No one stopped Cotto before Margachito

And a plaster in the glove can cause fractures in one's skull and internal head injuries that a legally wrapped fist covered with glove can rarely cause , especially when at least according to you Margachito was not even a top #3 puncher in his own division in his own prime (Except of Mosley and Cotto , Cintron comes to mind also) .

frankenfrank
08-10-2010, 03:01 AM
Also i have the fight the wraps were never taken off, only the gloves, and the wraps looked excessive. Those wraps were never removed.

Margarito has never been knocked out until the MOsley fight- That is a fact. Trinidad was never knocked out until the Hopkins fight, two fighters who had to re-wrap due to the athletic commissions. Even guys like CLottey who is durable ran from margocheoto in the last rounds of their fight, Paul Williams who has an 82 inch reach used his jab and didn't taste as much punishment as Cotto.

Margarito knocked out Cintron twice with BODY shots, a guy who never was knocked out. Did you see the last fight Margarito had? He hit Garcia with body shots and couldnt do nothing, in fact Garcia mocked him and even hit his own stomach and laughed at Margs, because the punches did nothing to him. All of sudden Margs power is reduced to shell of its former self. Also power is something fighters retain unlike speed and reflexes.

Exactly.
(1) Cintron was not stopped by anyone else before or since Margachito despite he faced top class opponents after him : Angulo and Martinez .
(2) Trinidad was undefeated pre Hopkins , yet was stopped the moment he
had his advantages removed .
(3)
Also i have the fight the wraps were never taken off, only the gloves, and the wraps looked excessive. Those wraps were never removed.
(4) Williams survived because of his big range advantage .
(5) Margachito's power was rarely rated high , not even by most of his fans ,
was proven even "weaker" after the wrapping "incident".


And outside of this quoted post , and to a lesser extent :
(6) When someone is aware of his hidden advantage it also helps him
mentally by rightfully boosting his self confidence.

BigStereotype
08-10-2010, 08:42 AM
1. I haven't seen the Angulo fight, but Martinez won the Cintron fight and he's not as overpoweringly aggressive as Margarito.
2. Again, that's what can happen when you're distracted...I don't see your point. Also, Tito didn't have a granite chin like Margarito. I'd seen Tito on the verge of knockout before, while I'd never seen Margarito even notice a punch.
3. I don't think so.
4. Williams won, not survived, because he out-Margarito'd Margarito for the first seven rounds.
5. He wasn't Juan Diaz or anything, he had a decent punch. He just wasn't a show-stopper. You can't be that big and strong for the division and not have just a little bit of punch.
6. Yeah, definitely. I agree with that. His confidence was shattered, but that could be because he thought he was going to be fighting the last fight of his career.

frankenfrank
08-10-2010, 04:06 PM
1. I haven't seen the Angulo fight, but Martinez won the Cintron fight and he's not as overpoweringly aggressive as Margarito.
2. Again, that's what can happen when you're distracted...I don't see your point. Also, Tito didn't have a granite chin like Margarito. I'd seen Tito on the verge of knockout before, while I'd never seen Margarito even notice a punch.
3. I don't think so.
4. Williams won, not survived, because he out-Margarito'd Margarito for the first seven rounds.
5. He wasn't Juan Diaz or anything, he had a decent punch. He just wasn't a show-stopper. You can't be that big and strong for the division and not have just a little bit of punch.
6. Yeah, definitely. I agree with that. His confidence was shattered, but that could be because he thought he was going to be fighting the last fight of his career.

1. It is clear I was referring to stoppages , Margachito is the only man to
ever stop Cintron .
2&4. Danny Perez knocked Margachito down in the first round in both of their
fights and Shane Mosley stopped him . According to you , Paul Williams out
Margarittoed him , how could it be done given Margaritto's such
tremendous chin , power , and stamina ? it's not like Williams outboxed him
or anything , at least not according to you , each one of these ccurrences
occurred during Margachito's prime , or close to it.
3. One of you is right and the other is wrong , I hope you agree on this one ,
And a video can be posted to prove it , maybe even a HD video.
I simply don't want to watch twisted fights just to win an argument .
5. So now you reduce him from one of the hardest hitters in his (talent
packed) division to just having a decent punch ?
Someone with a little bit of a punch don't stop Miguel Cotto , Kermit
Cintron , Sergio Martinez and Golden Johnson (in just 1 round).



And regardless of punching power :how many fighters can cause other fighters to bleed that much.

WladIsTheChamp
08-10-2010, 04:38 PM
Out of HWs: Ali, Byrd, and Holyfield come to mind, from the ones I have seen. Byrd would fight anyone despite being the much smaller guy in most of his fights. Ali would just take an insane amount of punishment and not quit. Holyfield was also the smaller guy and still fighting at his age.

Wlad deserves an honorable mention in the heart department - he has never quit and have always tried to fight on, plus to have come back from those devasting losses like that and still rule the HW division, takes heart.

BigStereotype
08-10-2010, 08:13 PM
1. It is clear I was referring to stoppages , Margachito is the only man to
ever stop Cintron .
2&4. Danny Perez knocked Margachito down in the first round in both of their
fights and Shane Mosley stopped him . According to you , Paul Williams out
Margarittoed him , how could it be done given Margaritto's such
tremendous chin , power , and stamina ? it's not like Williams outboxed him
or anything , at least not according to you , each one of these ccurrences
occurred during Margachito's prime , or close to it.
3. One of you is right and the other is wrong , I hope you agree on this one ,
And a video can be posted to prove it , maybe even a HD video.
I simply don't want to watch twisted fights just to win an argument .
5. So now you reduce him from one of the hardest hitters in his (talent
packed) division to just having a decent punch ?
Someone with a little bit of a punch don't stop Miguel Cotto , Kermit
Cintron , Sergio Martinez and Golden Johnson (in just 1 round).



And regardless of punching power :how many fighters can cause other fighters to bleed that much.

1. So was I, Martinez could have stopped Cintron if he was a more aggressive fighter
2. I haven't seen Margarito vs. Perez and I meant I had never seen him hurt before Margarito-Mosley. But in the five or six fights I've watched, I've never seen him even reel backwards off a punch.
3. My point is that I don't think the fight is twisted. So if you want to go on youtube and find the closing ceremonies, knock yourself out.
4. Dude, my point was always that he wasn't ever a tremendous puncher. But a good body shot from even a volume puncher like Margarito can put you down hard. And he was ferocious to the body in the Cintron fights.