View Full Version : Lennox Lewis A Top 10 ATG Heavyweight...Really?


>Right Jab<
08-07-2010, 01:58 PM
Really who should Lennox replace on this list

-Ali
-Louis
-Foreman
-Holmes
-Marciano
-Dempsey
-Frazier
-Johnson
-Jeffries
-Tyson

Lewis isn't as great as none of the above.

sonnyboyx2
08-07-2010, 02:02 PM
11/. Holyfield
12/. Liston
13/. Bowe
14/. LEWIS....

krazyn8tive
08-07-2010, 02:04 PM
Lewis>Smokin' Joe and Iron Mike

>Right Jab<
08-07-2010, 02:06 PM
Lennox Lewis greater than Joe Frazier? I've heard it all now

BigStereotype
08-07-2010, 02:07 PM
Lewis>Smokin' Joe and Iron Mike

Just...no. Lewis greater Frazier? Greater than Tyson? Hell no! Lewis is a top 15 ATG heavyweight, maybe. Top 20, definitely.

krazyn8tive
08-07-2010, 02:10 PM
Lennox Lewis greater than Joe Frazier? I've heard it all now

Lennox defeated everyone he ever faced. Lennox was a huge HW...kind of like George Foreman...we know how the foreman/frazier fights ended. Too many times on this site people say things with little or no basis to say them. Take this list for example. People automatically associated names with greatness because they have heard the name so much. Shouldn't accomplishments be more important than names?

krazyn8tive
08-07-2010, 02:11 PM
Just...no. Lewis greater Frazier? Greater than Tyson? Hell no! Lewis is a top 15 ATG heavyweight, maybe. Top 20, definitely.

I can have my opinion. Frazier was a great HW...but he lost/got manhandled by the first 'super' HW he faced. Lennox was in the era of the 'super' HW and was blasting everybody

>Right Jab<
08-07-2010, 02:12 PM
Lennox defeated everyone he ever faced. Lennox was a huge HW...kind of like George Foreman...we know how the foreman/frazier fight ended. Too many times on this site people say things with little or no basis to say them. Take this list for example. People automatically associated names with greatness because they have heard the name so much. Shouldn't accomplishments be more important than names?

Joe Frazier in his prime would never be KO'd by the likes of Rahman or McCall, or struggle with aging Holyfield. Frazier was past his very best, by the time he fought Foreman.

And at least when he did get knocked out for his title, it was by a ATG fighter in Foreman, not by a medicore contender.

krazyn8tive
08-07-2010, 02:12 PM
11/. Holyfield
12/. Liston
13/. Bowe
14/. LEWIS....

Lewis beat Holyfield once(should have been twice)

krazyn8tive
08-07-2010, 02:15 PM
Joe Frazier in his prime would never be KO'd by the likes of Rahman or McCall, or struggle with aging Holyfield. Frazier was past his very best, by the time he fought Foreman.

And at least when he did get knocked out for his title, it was by a ATG fighter in Foreman, not by a medicore contender.

Lewis did have the habit of being lazy in training when he took an opponent lightly. We all know that. He did get revenge though, in a devastating fashion. The part in bold is not factual. Holyfield gave EVERYBODY problems...and last I checked, he is still fighting so please stop with the 'aging' thing. And Lewis didn't struggle. He couldn't knock him out, but he was clearly winning both fights...that is a fact.

Forza
08-07-2010, 02:17 PM
He;s a top 3 HW and if you don't think so you're a moron. 2 losses which he avenged by KO, wins over tyson and holyfeild ( who idiots rank higher than him even though he demolished them ) and countless others.

Lewis ruled HW boxing for his time.

krazyn8tive
08-07-2010, 02:18 PM
He;s a top 3 HW and if you don't think so you're a moron. 2 losses which he avenged by KO, wins over tyson and holyfeild ( who idiots rank higher than him even though he demolished them ) and countless others.

Lewis ruled HW boxing for his time.

Thank you.

CarlosG815
08-07-2010, 03:44 PM
Lewis>Smokin' Joe and Iron Mike

Absolutely not

sonnyboyx2
08-07-2010, 03:53 PM
Lewis beat Holyfield once(should have been twice)

Holyfield was robbed

frankenfrank
08-07-2010, 04:01 PM
Really who should Lennox replace on this list

-Ali
-Louis
-Foreman
-Holmes
-Marciano
-Dempsey
-Frazier
-Johnson
-Jeffries
-Tyson

Lewis isn't as great as none of the above.
:flush0:

Lewis > Louis , Marciano , Dempsey , Frazier , Johnson , Jeffries .
And significantly so.
Your top 10 list is crap , the usual crap , if u just replaced Marciano with Liston it would have been the perfect crap .

prinzemanspopa
08-07-2010, 04:05 PM
Other than Ali and Louis,I don't see any heavyweight that holds a decisive edge over Lewis in terms of resume and accomplishments in the division.


I'd personally rate Holyfield over Lewis,but again,no decisive edge there.



There's no real argument for Frazier being placed above Lewis in any credible ATG list.One is a certain top ten heavyweight,the other just barely makes the top ten due to his name and being involved in some of the most notable sporting events of recent memory alone.Without it,nobody would regard him that highly.

Forza
08-07-2010, 04:14 PM
Absolutely not

He whipped tyson and would've beat fraziers simple style. The only HW's I see lewis having an actual tough fight with are ali and a prime holmes.

blaze778
08-07-2010, 04:43 PM
Lewis is so underrated. I would take out Jeffries and put Lewis in there. Besides Ali, Dempsey, Johnson, Louis, and Holmes, Lewis had the most dominant run. He's beaten everyone he has ever faced and beat every top fighter in his era. He belongs at least at number 5 or 6. He should also be above Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield and Johnson for sure.

Megamasterking
08-07-2010, 05:55 PM
Really who should Lennox replace on this list

-Ali
-Louis
-Foreman
-Holmes
-Marciano
-Dempsey
-Frazier
-Johnson
-Jeffries
-Tyson

Lewis isn't as great as none of the above.

Lewis is not a top 10 ATG...

Joeyzagz
08-07-2010, 08:33 PM
Really who should Lennox replace on this list

-Ali
-Louis
-Foreman
-Holmes
-Marciano
-Dempsey
-Frazier
-Johnson
-Jeffries
-Tyson

Lewis isn't as great as none of the above.

Ali and Joe Louis are the greatest of all time without a shadow of a doubt. With that said, Lennox can be placed anywhere from #3 to #10, depending on your criteria.

George Foreman Never avenged a single defeat in his life. Lost and ran away from Jimmy Young in the PRIME of his career. Lennox has more than thrice as many title defenses as Foreman and defeated everyone he ever faced. I have George ranked #5

Larry Holmes fought in one of the worst eras in Heavyweight history(1980-1986) and his best win was against a Muhammad Ali suffering from Parkinsons. Foreman and Holmes(both born 1949) disqualify each other for refusing to match up in their careers. We will never know how great they really were. I have Larry ranked #7

Rocky Marciano Lennox has twice as many title defenses as rocky. Rocky fought mostly geezers and lightheavyweights, while Lennox fought Prime 27 year olds and SuperHeavyweights. Lennox also defeated the dominant champ of the next era in Vitali Klitschko at a 6 year age disadvantage. Marciano was ALWAYS prime and fought with a youthful edge, then bailed from boxing at 32. I have Marciano ranked #4

Jack Dempsey Took 3 year vacations where he was allowed to keep the title, fought 4 round farces, and he ducked an entire race of people. He shouldnt even be on a top 10 list to be honest, but Ill give him the benefit of the doubt. I have Dempsey ranked #8

Frazier I can see Lennox beating or at least competing with any heavyweight that ever lived...I cant say the same for Joe Frazier because of his performance against George. If Jimmy Young and Lyle can give Foreman a fight why couldnt Frazier? Im not saying Frazier had to win but he didnt even tickle Foreman. I have Frazier ranked #13.

Jack JohnsonJack Johnson had an opportunity to set an example by facing black fighters late in his career, but he refused. He is just as guilty as Dempsey as far as Im concerned, but I think Dempsey is slightly more skilled so I barely give him him the edge. I have Johnson ranked #9.

Jeffries His best win is over a supermiddleweight that he outweighed by 40 lbs! The first guy he faced that was OVER 200lbs knocked his ass out. 37 year old Lennox > 35 year old Jeffries. I have jeff ranked #18.

Tyson Tyson is a year younger than Lennox, and ducked him relentlessly throughout the 90's. Lennox has the head 2 head victory and better overall record, so this is not a tough decision for me. I have Tyson ranked #6.

Lennox is Only 1 of 3 people in history to retire as the heavyweight champion of the world.

- The ONLY undisputed Heavyweight champion in the last 17 years

-Has wins over ATG Tyson, Holyfield, Klitschko, and by way of rematch has defeated every single opponent he ever faced.

-Fought at an age disadvantage for the last 10 fights of his career.

Age of Lennox and his last 10 opponentsAge Difference

Lennox(37) vs Vitali(31) +6
Lennox(36) vs Tyson(35) +1
Lennox(35) vs Rahman(28) +7
Lennox(35) vs David Tua(27) +8
Lennox(35) vs Botha(31) +4
Lennox(34) vs Michael Grant(27) +7
Lennox(33) vs Holyfield(36) -3
Lennox(33) vs Marovic(29) +4
Lennox(32) vs Briggs(26) +6
Lennox(32) vs Golota(29) +3

= +40 years


Physically he is the quickest and most skilled Big man to ever lace up gloves. Defeated every style and archetype of fighter there was. Big, small, fast, powerful, skilled, you name it.. I have Lennox ranked #3

SBleeder
08-07-2010, 08:47 PM
Really who should Lennox replace on this list

-Ali
-Louis
-Foreman
-Holmes
-Marciano
-Dempsey
-Frazier
-Johnson
-Jeffries
-Tyson

Lewis isn't as great as none of the above.
Of that list, Lewis is superior to Tyson only. However, there are several other heavyweights that belong on that list, so Lewis isn't top ten. Where are Langford, Charles, and Liston?

irishdude
08-07-2010, 08:53 PM
Lennox defeated everyone he ever faced. Lennox was a huge HW...kind of like George Foreman...we know how the foreman/frazier fights ended. Too many times on this site people say things with little or no basis to say them. Take this list for example. People automatically associated names with greatness because they have heard the name so much. Shouldn't accomplishments be more important than names?

It is still my opinion that the 250+ lbs fighters of today would still be lighter if they were around before. Foreman was 214 in his first fight! Lennox Lewis was 221 in his first fight may I mention, he was only above 250 once and that was against Klitschko.

Frazier beat better opposition, he was around in the golden age of heavyweight boxing and was one of its sparkling jewels in it's shining crown. :D I don't think Lewis would be undefeated up to 1971 if he was in Fraziers period.

K-DOGG
08-07-2010, 09:11 PM
Lewis is no less than Top 5, in my opionion.

He beat the best of a better than average era, and avenged both loses. The two losses troubled me for a while; but I eventually chalked it up the lack of focus because he grossly underestimated the opposistion.

Either way, he's great.

sonnyboyx2
08-08-2010, 04:44 AM
Ali and Joe Louis are the greatest of all time without a shadow of a doubt. With that said, Lennox can be placed anywhere from #3 to #10, depending on your criteria.

George Foreman Never avenged a single defeat in his life. Lost and ran away from Jimmy Young in the PRIME of his career. Lennox has more than thrice as many title defenses as Foreman and defeated everyone he ever faced. I have George ranked #5

Larry Holmes fought in one of the worst eras in Heavyweight history(1980-1986) and his best win was against a Muhammad Ali suffering from Parkinsons. Foreman and Holmes(both born 1949) disqualify each other for refusing to match up in their careers. We will never know how great they really were. I have Larry ranked #7

Rocky Marciano Lennox has twice as many title defenses as rocky. Rocky fought mostly geezers and lightheavyweights, while Lennox fought Prime 27 year olds and SuperHeavyweights. Lennox also defeated the dominant champ of the next era in Vitali Klitschko at a 6 year age disadvantage. Marciano was ALWAYS prime and fought with a youthful edge, then bailed from boxing at 32. I have Marciano ranked #4

Jack Dempsey Took 3 year vacations where he was allowed to keep the title, fought 4 round farces, and he ducked an entire race of people. He shouldnt even be on a top 10 list to be honest, but Ill give him the benefit of the doubt. I have Dempsey ranked #8

Frazier I can see Lennox beating or at least competing with any heavyweight that ever lived...I cant say the same for Joe Frazier because of his performance against George. If Jimmy Young and Lyle can give Foreman a fight why couldnt Frazier? Im not saying Frazier had to win but he didnt even tickle Foreman. I have Frazier ranked #13.

Jack JohnsonJack Johnson had an opportunity to set an example by facing black fighters late in his career, but he refused. He is just as guilty as Dempsey as far as Im concerned, but I think Dempsey is slightly more skilled so I barely give him him the edge. I have Johnson ranked #9.

Jeffries His best win is over a supermiddleweight that he outweighed by 40 lbs! The first guy he faced that was OVER 200lbs knocked his ass out. 37 year old Lennox > 35 year old Jeffries. I have jeff ranked #18.

Tyson Tyson is a year younger than Lennox, and ducked him relentlessly throughout the 90's. Lennox has the head 2 head victory and better overall record, so this is not a tough decision for me. I have Tyson ranked #6.

Lennox is Only 1 of 3 people in history to retire as the heavyweight champion of the world.

- The ONLY undisputed Heavyweight champion in the last 17 years

-Has wins over ATG Tyson, Holyfield, Klitschko, and by way of rematch has defeated every single opponent he ever faced.

-Fought at an age disadvantage for the last 10 fights of his career.

Age of Lennox and his last 10 opponentsAge Difference

Lennox(37) vs Vitali(31) +6
Lennox(36) vs Tyson(35) +1
Lennox(35) vs Rahman(28) +7
Lennox(35) vs David Tua(27) +8
Lennox(35) vs Botha(31) +4
Lennox(34) vs Michael Grant(27) +7
Lennox(33) vs Holyfield(36) -3
Lennox(33) vs Marovic(29) +4
Lennox(32) vs Briggs(26) +6
Lennox(32) vs Golota(29) +3

= +40 years


Physically he is the quickest and most skilled Big man to ever lace up gloves. Defeated every style and archetype of fighter there was. Big, small, fast, powerful, skilled, you name it.. I have Lennox ranked #3

What a load of bull**** you talk, its clear that you have never seen any of the great champions which you try to assassinate on a daily basis so as to try to imply that Lewis was on a par or greater than them... but you will never succeed... lets look at the crap which you have spewed out.

1/. George Foreman never RAN from Jimmy Young, Foreman was "Robbed" against Young... Foremans title defences against Norton, Roman & Ali was Awesome displays of power whereas Lewis title defences against Tua, Akinwande & Mavrovick was "snoozers" and so boring to watch that Lewis could never be talked of in the same breath as Foreman.

2/. Larry Holmes title reign was vastly superior than the "Tomato-Cans" who Lewis chose to fight during the 90s Holmes fought Carl Williams, Leon Spinks, Bonecrusher Smith, David Bey, Michael Spinks, Tex Cobb, Mike Weaver, Witherspoon, Cooney, Shavers, Norton, Berbick all of who would destroy any of the bums who Lewis fought like Botha, Grant, Tua, Butler, Jackson, Fortune, Mavrovick, Akinwande, Golota or Briggs who Lewis chose to fight so as to avoid all the fighters in the division who was "At the Top of their Game" like Bowe, Holyfield, Tyson, Foreman, Sanders, Witherspoon, Hide, Ruiz, Byrd, Moorer & Holmes who Lewis ran from when he was well into his 40s.

3/.Rocky Marciano - Lewis does not have "Twice as Many" title defences like you repeatedly try to claim as Rocky Marciano... Rocky was undisputed champion of the world and fought the No1 contender in his title fights... Lewis was very fortunate to be given the decision over Holyfield and win the undisputed title as 42 of 49 ringside reporters had Holyfield the clear winner.. BUT Lewis then "REFUSED" to fight the No1 contenders like Great Champion of the past always did... So Lewis was Stripped of every belt for refusing to fight the Top Fighters.. Lewis should never be mentioned in the same breath as Rocky Maciano, Rocky had the guts to fight the best... Lewis ran from the best.

4/. Jack Dempsey - The most ferocious champion in history who used contenders as "Sparring partners" such was his superiority over them, if journeymen like Rahman & McCall can poleaxe Lewis in a couple of rounds then Dempsey would massacre Lewis in the opening round.

5/. Joe Frazier - Dominant champion from 67-72 beating every top contender, won Fight of the Century`.. voted Fighter of the Year twice and took part in 4 Fights of the Year.. avoided no-one unlike Lewis who avoided evey fighter who was at the Top of their Game`.

6/. Jack Johnson - Dominant undisputed champion who fought the best in the world, a defensive master who suffered racism on a scale unheard of in todays world.. Johnson would beat Lewis within 3rds.

7/. Mike Tyson - Dominant undisputed champion whose out of ring antics cut his career short.. Tyson offered Lewis 13 million in 1996 yet Lewis turned it down and waited another 6yrs and several more prison sentences later until Tyson had completely "self-destructed".. Tyson had been beaten 12yrs earlier by Douglas & 6yrs earlier by Holyfield by the time he fought Lewis he was just a shell of the former ATG, defeats to Williams & McBride proved Tyson was finished.. if Lewis was to have fought Tyson during the 1990s it would have ended in a 1st round KO for Tyson.

8/. Riddick Bowe - Undisputed Champion who was avoided by Lennox Lewis in 93 & 95

9/. Evander Holyfield - Brilliant 4 times heavyweight champion who fought everyone their was to fight, Holyfield was "Robbed" of his titles against Lewis with 42 of 49 ringside reporters have Holyfield the clear winner of their 2nd fight.. Holyfields 1st fight with Lewis had British Judge scoring fight for Holyfield... Lewis wanted no part of a 3rd and deciding fight with Holyfield

10/. Jim Jeffries - incredibly fit, strong & dominant champion who would be a tough fight for any fighter in history, if McCall & Rahman two mediocre journeymen can poleaxe Lewis then Jeffries would "Fold Lewis over and wipe his arse with him"

Lennox Lewis will be remembered as the boxer who won the undisputed title against Evander Holyfield by one of the most disputed decisions in history with Lewis then refusing to fight the No1 contenders so being "Stripped of every belt"... Lewis never in his career fought a single opponent who was "At the Top of their Game" ... Lewis was a weak-chinned mediocre fighter who was on the same level as Frank Bruno.

Vadrigar.
08-08-2010, 05:17 AM
Lewis barely scrapes top 10, I'll put him in Tyson's place only.

GJC
08-08-2010, 07:06 AM
2/. Larry Holmes title reign was vastly superior than the "Tomato-Cans" who Lewis chose to fight during the 90s Holmes fought Carl Williams, Leon Spinks, Bonecrusher Smith, David Bey, Tex Cobb

C'mon Sonny you are really stretching there my friend!

frankenfrank
08-08-2010, 07:15 AM
Joe Frazier in his prime would never be KO'd by the likes of Rahman or McCall, or struggle with aging Holyfield. Frazier was past his very best, by the time he fought Foreman.

And at least when he did get knocked out for his title, it was by a ATG fighter in Foreman, not by a medicore contender.
Frazier would have been KTFOd by McCall and Rahman and struggle against the 48 years old Holyfield. Frazier is tailor made for Holyfield.

frankenfrank
08-08-2010, 07:17 AM
Lewis did have the habit of being lazy in training when he took an opponent lightly. We all know that. He did get revenge though, in a devastating fashion. The part in bold is not factual. Holyfield gave EVERYBODY problems...and last I checked, he is still fighting so please stop with the 'aging' thing. And Lewis didn't struggle. He couldn't knock him out, but he was clearly winning both fights...that is a fact.

Clearly winning both fights ? no

frankenfrank
08-08-2010, 07:19 AM
He;s a top 3 HW and if you don't think so you're a moron. 2 losses which he avenged by KO, wins over tyson and holyfeild ( who idiots rank higher than him even though he demolished them ) and countless others.

Lewis ruled HW boxing for his time.

Lewis was not even close to KO McCall , even when McCall stopped defending himself because of a mental breakdown which was caused by rehabilitation difficulties which without Lewis' team knowing about them , Lewis would have avoided a 2nd fight with McCall forever.

sonnyboyx2
08-08-2010, 07:42 AM
C'mon Sonny you are really stretching there my friend!

GJC .. are you saying that Bonecrusher, Bey, Cobb, Witherspoon, Cooney, Spinks, Carl Williams, Berbick would not beat Botha, Akinwande, Butler, Fortune, Tua, Grant, Rahman, Mavrovic or McCall ?

Rahman could only get a decision over a 43yr old Berbick

McCall lost to an old Frank Bruno who was hammered by both Witherspoon & Bonecrusher

i would not fancy Lewis to beat the majority of Holmes opponents

GJC
08-08-2010, 07:51 AM
GJC .. are you saying that Bonecrusher, Bey, Cobb, Witherspoon, Cooney, Spinks, Carl Williams, Berbick would not beat Botha, Akinwande, Butler, Fortune, Tua, Grant, Rahman, Mavrovic or McCall ?

Rahman could only get a decision over a 43yr old Berbick

McCall lost to an old Frank Bruno who was hammered by both Witherspoon & Bonecrusher

i would not fancy Lewis to beat the majority of Holmes opponents

Bonecrusher, Witherspoon, Cooney and Berbick would have success though i'd favour Tua and McCall but Cobb, Bey and the rest, c'mon! : )
I rate Holmes above Lewis head to head or any other measure but I can't think beyond Witherspoon or the Norton (that Holmes fought) of any of Holmes opponents that Lewis wouldn't beat.
You have Lewis at 14(?) if memory serves I have him at around 12 so no major argument with your 14 ranking, but to say he would struggle with the likes of Bey or Cobb is you going back to Brian London/David Tua territory again.

Toney616
08-08-2010, 07:53 AM
Tyson Tyson is a year younger than Lennox, and ducked him relentlessly throughout the 90's. Lennox has the head 2 head victory and better overall record, so this is not a tough decision for me. I have Tyson ranked #6.

Your definiton of prime is wrong and it has been pointed out to you on a number of times and you are still using it. It doesn't matter if they were 1 year apart in age or not, Lewis was close to his prime, while Tyson was a shot fighter. That win means nothing

As for Tyson ducking Lewis, that only happened once, when he chose to vacate the WBC belt and fight Holyfield instead who was seen as a lower risk/higher reward opponent than Lewis. He had no reason to fear Lewis back then because:

-Lewis had a competitive fight with an over the hill Tucker
-Went life and death with Bruno
-Was koed in two rounds by his former sparring partner, McCall
-Needed a gift decision to beat the limited Mercer

The second time Tyson wanted a warm up fight against Mercer to get him ready for Lewis and Lewis had him dragged to court to force him to cancel the Mercer fight.

Lewis himself would vacate his IBF belt to avoid fighting Byrd

Lewis would also retire to avoid faving Vitali again. he didnt want to retire, I know that because:

-He had signed a multimillion 3 fight deal with HBO
-Dragged Tyson to court again to try to force him to fight him again
-Was in negotiations with Jones promoter about a possible Lewis-Jones fight

Also this:
Vitali Klitschko claims Lennox Lewis's mum prevented a rematch

Plans for an eagerly anticipated rematch never materialised, with Klitschko yesterday offering an interesting explanation for why that was the case. "Lennox promised me but his mum decided he wasn't going to fight," said the 38-year-old ahead of the Laureus World Sports Awards in Abu Dhabi. "He invited me to London, without managers. He said he wanted to talk just together. I came to the room and his mum is there. We talked for two hours and his mum was looking at me and scanning me.

"After that I went away and he called me a couple of hours later and said, 'Sorry, but no'. I felt it wasn't his decision, his mum decided. I tried to change his decision, but it's difficult
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/mar/10/vitali-klitschko-lennox-lewis-mum

Joeyzagz
08-08-2010, 10:30 AM
Your definiton of prime is wrong and it has been pointed out to you on a number of times and you are still using it. It doesn't matter if they were 1 year apart in age or not, Lewis was close to his prime, while Tyson was a shot fighter. That win means nothing


Physical Prime is generally the same for all humans and it applies to every athlete across the board. Males lose 2% of their testosterone every year after they turn 30. This is a REAL fact of nature and not some silly boxing argument.

Age is the ONLY variable that is totally out of the athletes control which is why I place emphasis on it. Everything else is the responsibility of the fighter.

It is up to the athlete to train properly for a fight
It is up to the athlete to protect his chin and reduce punishment.
It is up to the athlete to refrain from drug use
It is up to the athlete to NOT rape women and spend 3 years in jail.

Tyson being finished as an elite fighter at 23 is Tyson's fault, and the direct result of the decisions he made as a person. I can only go by reality... If you want to make a hypothetical list where Lennox smokes crack and Tyson is not such a moron with his career then we can take it to the fantasy forum.

Toney616
08-08-2010, 11:19 AM
Physical Prime is generally the same for all humans and it applies to every athlete across the board. Males lose 2% of their testosterone every year after they turn 30. This is a REAL fact of nature and not some silly boxing argument.
You are confusing two different things, physical prime and a fighters prime are not the same thing.

A fighter is considered to be prime during the period when they are at their physical peak (rough estimate 24-35) and technical peak. A fighter as a rough estimate should reach their fighters prime after they have had around 25+ fights and their technical foundation has been throughly grounded. According to you Lewis would be prime when he made his pro debut at 24 years old, when the reality is he was a green contender. The fighter would generally be considered to be past prime when you notice that their reaction time has started to slow down and you see them getting hit with punches they normally would slipped/blocked/evaded

Age is the ONLY variable that is totally out of the athletes control which is why I place emphasis on it. Everything else is the responsibility of the fighter.

It is up to the athlete to train properly for a fight
It is up to the athlete to protect his chin and reduce punishment.
It is up to the athlete to refrain from drug use

It doesn't work like that. Boxing is an attrition sport with the rates of attrition varying due to a number of things like:
amount of sparring
wars
fighters style

Morales was clearly past prime after by the time of the third Barrera fight, he was basically shot by Pacquaio 3. He was in his late 20's

Jones was past prime by the Harmon fight, you can see that his reflexes had started to slow down as he was getting hit with punches he would of normally slipped. He was in his early 30's

Hagler was past prime by the time of the Mugabi fight you can see that his reflexes/timing is way off as he keeps missing with his straight rights. He was in his early 30's

Meldrick Taylor was never the same after his fight with Chavez, he was in his early 20's

etc
etc

If you are a fighter fighting the best out there you are going to take a lot of punishment, whether you like it or not. Different fighters react to punishment differently to others, compare Lewis post McCall I to Hatton post Mayweather for example. Or compare how age effects different fighters differently, compare technical based fighters like Toney, Hopkins to athletic based fighters Jones, Nunn, when they hit their 30's

This stuff has to be taken into account when you evaluate a win over a certain fighter, you cannot just say, "oh they should of protected themself more or oh they should of trained properly". If Calzaghe had moved up to lhw back in 1999 (as HBO wanted-they wanted him to fight on a Jones undercard to spark interest in a Jones-Calzaghe fight) and had wars with Jones, Johnson, Darius M etc do you think he would been the same fighter at 36 when he retired? I dont think so.

It is up to the athlete to NOT rape women and spend 3 years in jail.
You obviously dont know anything about the rape case, which is why you keep bringing it up Their was a lot of facts which Tyson's team where not allowed to use, but they were revealed to the jury after the case had reached its conclusion like:

-Before Desiree decided to press charges she called around to find out how much money she could sue Tyson for if he gets convicted. Her Lawyer agreed to take her case on the agreement that she would use him when she sued Tyson (i.e he gets a slice of the money). In otherwords before she even decided to press charges she was already thinking of the money. She would sue Tyson in a civil court after he came out of prison for around 2M

-She had accused a former classmate of rape in the past and when the classmate confronted here (after getting permission from her father) she said,"what else did you expect me to say, I was going to get into trouble with my father for coming home late?"

When the jury heard this they were shocked and openly admitted that they may have made a mistake, some even asked to judge for a retrail

source:Tyson:nuture of the beast
The Dark Trade
see also Tyson the sports century documentary


Tyson being finished as an elite fighter at 23 is Tyson's fault, and the direct result of the decisions he made as a person. I can only go by reality... If you want to make a hypothetical list where Lennox smokes crack and Tyson is not such a moron with his career then we can take it to the fantasy forum.
It doesnt matter if it's his fault or not, he wasnt the same fighter he used to be when he was at his peak. Lewis knew that, which is the reason he didnt want Tyson fighting Mercer because he knew Tyson was going to lose

According to your logic Ali-Berbick, Holmes-Ali, calzaghe-Jones, Lewis-Tyson were all great wins for the victors. When the truth is they beat fighters who shouldn't of even been in the ring, let alone competing. Calzaghe said himself that Jones was shot. Manny Steward, Dundee, Atlas, Gil Clancy, Eddie Futch have all said that Tyson was clearly on the slide way before he hit his 30's and those guys know much more about boxing than you do. So who is wrong all of those guys or you?

CarlosG815
08-08-2010, 11:28 AM
You are confusing two different things, physical prime and a fighters prime are not the same thing.

A fighter is considered to be prime during the period when they are at their physical peak (rough estimate 24-35) and technical peak. A fighter as a rough estimate should reach their fighters prime after they have had around 25+ fights and their technical foundation has been throughly grounded. According to you Lewis would be prime when he made his pro debut at 24 years old, when the reality is he was a green contender. The fighter would generally be considered to be past prime when you notice that their reaction time has started to slow down and you see them getting hit with punches they normally would slipped/blocked/evaded

It doesn't work like that. Boxing is an attrition sport with the rates of attrition varying due to a number of things like:
amount of sparring
wars
fighters style

Morales was clearly past prime after by the time of the third Barrera fight, he was basically shot by Pacquaio 3. He was in his late 20's

Jones was past prime by the Harmon fight, you can see that his reflexes had started to slow down as he was getting hit with punches he would of normally slipped. He was in his early 30's

Hagler was past prime by the time of the Mugabi fight you can see that his reflexes/timing is way off as he keeps missing with his straight rights. He was in his early 30's

Meldrick Taylor was never the same after his fight with Chavez, he was in his early 20's

etc
etc

If you are a fighter fighting the best out there you are going to take a lot of punishment, whether you like it or not. Different fighters react to punishment differently to others, compare Lewis post McCall I to Hatton post Mayweather for example. Or compare how age effects different fighters differently, compare technical based fighters like Toney, Hopkins to athletic based fighters Jones, Nunn, when they hit their 30's

This stuff has to be taken into account when you evaluate a win over a certain fighter, you cannot just say, "oh they should of protected themself more or oh they should of trained properly". If Calzaghe had moved up to lhw back in 1999 (as HBO wanted-they wanted him to fight on a Jones undercard to spark interest in a Jones-Calzaghe fight) and had wars with Jones, Johnson, Darius M etc do you think he would been the same fighter at 36 when he retired? I dont think so.

You obviously dont know anything about the rape case, which is why you keep bringing it up Their was a lot of facts which Tyson's team where not allowed to use, but they were revealed to the jury after the case had reached its conclusion like:

-Before Desiree decided to press charges she called around to find out how much money she could sue Tyson for if he gets convicted. Her Lawyer agreed to take her case on the agreement that she would use him when she sued Tyson (i.e he gets a slice of the money). In otherwords before she even decided to press charges she was already thinking of the money. She would sue Tyson in a civil court after he came out of prison for around 2M

-She had accused a former classmate of rape in the past and when the classmate confronted here (after getting permission from her father) she said,"what else did you expect me to say, I was going to get into trouble with my father for coming home late?"

When the jury heard this they were shocked and openly admitted that they may have made a mistake, some even asked to judge for a retrail

source:Tyson:nuture of the beast
The Dark Trade
see also Tyson the sports century documentary


It doesnt matter if it's his fault or not, he wasnt the same fighter he used to be when he was at his peak. Lewis knew that, which is the reason he didnt want Tyson fighting Mercer because he knew Tyson was going to lose

According to your logic Ali-Berbick, Holmes-Ali, calzaghe-Jones, Lewis-Tyson were all great wins for the victors. When the truth is they beat fighters who shouldn't of even been in the ring, let alone competing. Calzaghe said himself that Jones was shot. Manny Steward, Dundee, Atlas, Gil Clancy, Eddie Futch have all said that Tyson was clearly on the slide way before he hit his 30's and those guys know much more about boxing than you do. So who is wrong all of those guys or you?

Great post. I've said this to that moron 1,000,000 times and he doesn't get it. I don't even have the energy for him anymore.

Regardless of how much sense what you just said makes, you will see him post the same nonsense in countless threads to come. Probably as soon as tomorrow.

He is that dense.

Toney616
08-08-2010, 11:33 AM
Great post. I've said this to that moron 1,000,000 times and he doesn't get it. I don't even have the energy for him anymore.

Thanks:boxing:

Regardless of how much sense what you just said makes, you will see him post the same nonsense in countless threads to come. Probably as soon as tomorrow.

He is that dense.
He has to hold on to his definition of prime because without out it he can't class shot Jones as a great win for Calzaghe or shot Tyson as a great win for Lewis. Ignorance is bliss, as they say

Joeyzagz
08-08-2010, 12:14 PM
4/. Jack Dempsey - The most ferocious champion in history who used contenders as "Sparring partners" such was his superiority over them, if journeymen like Rahman & McCall can poleaxe Lewis in a couple of rounds then Dempsey would massacre Lewis in the opening round.


Jack Dempsey = Mike Tyson.

They are both electrifying, savage, charismatic and most of all:Overated. Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson look spectacular against bums but the second they ran into a decent boxer they just couldn't win. If you are 31 years old, and calling your self the best ever, then at the very least you should be able to defeat a LHW coming up.

And if you want to bring up sparring partners Harry Greb was able to whip Dempsey's ass just like any other boxer with decent skills would. Greb thought Jack was a joke, and knew Tunney would soundly beat him.

We can only wonder how many more defeats Dempsey would suffer if he was facing the best fighters instead of just the best white. Prime Lennox would launch that 195 lb body into the 2nd row if they ever fought. LL is just to big and powerful for the 1920s.

GoogleMe
08-08-2010, 12:14 PM
He's above both Tyson and Frazier. In my eyes, Frazier is too overrated just because of the Ali fight. I love Frazier, great personality and a fighter. but...... His accomplishments are nowhere near top 10 worthy.

GJC
08-08-2010, 12:29 PM
You obviously dont know anything about the rape case, which is why you keep bringing it up Their was a lot of facts which Tyson's team where not allowed to use, but they were revealed to the jury after the case had reached its conclusion like:

-Before Desiree decided to press charges she called around to find out how much money she could sue Tyson for if he gets convicted. Her Lawyer agreed to take her case on the agreement that she would use him when she sued Tyson (i.e he gets a slice of the money). In otherwords before she even decided to press charges she was already thinking of the money. She would sue Tyson in a civil court after he came out of prison for around 2M

-She had accused a former classmate of rape in the past and when the classmate confronted here (after getting permission from her father) she said,"what else did you expect me to say, I was going to get into trouble with my father for coming home late?"

When the jury heard this they were shocked and openly admitted that they may have made a mistake, some even asked to judge for a retrail


Very good post in general, I only highlight the above because I was never comfortable with the rape trial. It would have to be one very innocent naive girl who went to a man's hotel room especially a man like Tyson who from all accounts wasn't exactly like Cary Grant (showing my age, I know!) and not know what he had in mind. My feeling was she thought that she was going to become Tyson's new girlfriend and quickly discovered that Tyson's plans with her didn't go beyond that evening.
As for Tyson's prime I had him pretty much sliding after Spinks, I thought when he fought Bruno that a Douglas performance would have beaten him.

Joeyzagz
08-08-2010, 12:43 PM
You are confusing two different things, physical prime and a fighters prime are not the same thing.

Physical prime is 18-32 for all humans. I dont care what you think a fighters prime is, Nature says a 31 year old Vitali should have a significant youth advantage over A 37 year old Lennox. That 6 year gap is a lot wider than say a: 21 year old and a 27 year old...LL was past it and a rematch would be pointless.

You obviously dont know anything about the rape case, which is why you keep bringing it up Their was a lot of facts which Tyson's team where not allowed to use, but they were revealed to the jury after the case had reached its conclusion like:

Tyson is damned idiot either way. If he is that retarded to put himself in a situation like that, he deserves to be in prison. He admitted to punching/robbing old ladies in the past, so either way, he belonged there.


According to your logic Ali-Berbick, Holmes-Ali, calzaghe-Jones, Lewis-Tyson were all great wins for the victors. When the truth is they beat fighters who shouldn't of even been in the ring, let alone competing. Calzaghe said himself that Jones was shot. Manny Steward, Dundee, Atlas, Gil Clancy, Eddie Futch have all said that Tyson was clearly on the slide way before he hit his 30's and those guys know much more about boxing than you do. So who is wrong all of those guys or you?

Holmes/Berbick had considerable youth advantages over Ali, so those werent great wins.

Lennox/Tyson: same age, both been ko'd twice, fair game.

Zags and Roy were both over 35, only 3 years apart, fair game.

CarlosG815
08-08-2010, 12:54 PM
Physical prime is 18-32 for all humans. I dont care what you think a fighters prime is, Nature says a 31 year old Vitali should have a significant youth advantage over A 37 year old Lennox. That 6 year gap is a lot wider than say a: 21 year old and a 27 year old...LL was past it and a rematch would be pointless.



Tyson is damned idiot either way. If he is that retarded to put himself in a situation like that, he deserves to be in prison. He admitted to punching/robbing old ladies in the past, so either way, he belonged there.




Holmes/Berbick had considerable youth advantages over Ali, so those werent great wins.

Lennox/Tyson: same age, both been ko'd twice, fair game.

Zags and Roy were both over 35, only 3 years apart, fair game.

You're dumb as a rock, son.

Anthony342
08-08-2010, 01:05 PM
Riddick Bowe - Undisputed Champion who was avoided by Lennox Lewis in 93 & 95


Bowe also avoided Lewis after Lewis handed him his ass in the '88 Olympics. Rock Newman even admitted to this later, so them not fighting wasn't entirely Lewis' fault.

Watch the ESPN Classic Ringside episode on the Holyfield/Bowe trilogy and you'll see where Newman mentions this. And there was that stupid publicity stunt with Bowe throwing the WBC belt in the garbage rather than give Lewis a title shot, who at the time was a mandatory challenger. Bowe wanted no part of Lewis.

NChristo
08-08-2010, 01:35 PM
Bowe also avoided Lewis after Lewis handed him his ass in the '88 Olympics. Rock Newman even admitted to this later, so them not fighting wasn't entirely Lewis' fault.


Did you even watch the Bowe - Lewis fight ?, the referee ****ed Bowe over big time giving him random warnings all through out the fight, Bowe rocked Lewis more in the first round then the supposed knockout punches that Lewis gave Bowe in the second. Bowe was ready to continue and was fine, completely biased ref.

People always say that Lewis beat him without actually watching the fight, even the commentators were saying it was an early stoppage.

This is the same Olympics were Roy Jones got done over by the judges, just thought I'd mention that.

Bowe matured a lot faster and better as a pro then Lewis especially with Futch in his corner, no doubt in my mind that Bowe would of beat him in 92/93' when they should of fought.

The Noose
08-08-2010, 02:04 PM
Physical prime is 18-32 for all humans.

:trink26:
Total nonsense.

The massive difference between fighters ageing like foreman, Hopkins, Meldrick Taylor, Tyson etc cannot be dismissed.


... Lewis was a weak-chinned mediocre fighter who was on the same level as Frank Bruno.

Insane.



Based on accomplishments, Lewis is without question a top 10 ATG.

elfag
08-08-2010, 04:05 PM
I think he more than makes the top ten. He fought most of everyone out there. I would have liked to see him have fought wlad and some of the other belt holders in the 2000s but DK had his men on lock down from Lennox for good reason.

When he lost he rematched them and KTFO, I think that is good, it shows the heart of a champion to want to avenge defeat.

turdleburgle
08-08-2010, 04:37 PM
lewis is far greater than convicted rapist mike tyson.It's amazing how tyson still even has fans.There are few things more evil than rape and as far as I'm concerned he got off lightly.




a disgusting human being and an overrated boxer.

GoogleMe
08-08-2010, 04:47 PM
Ali and Joe Louis are the greatest of all time without a shadow of a doubt. With that said, Lennox can be placed anywhere from #3 to #10, depending on your criteria.

George Foreman Never avenged a single defeat in his life. Lost and ran away from Jimmy Young in the PRIME of his career. Lennox has more than thrice as many title defenses as Foreman and defeated everyone he ever faced. I have George ranked #5

Larry Holmes fought in one of the worst eras in Heavyweight history(1980-1986) and his best win was against a Muhammad Ali suffering from Parkinsons. Foreman and Holmes(both born 1949) disqualify each other for refusing to match up in their careers. We will never know how great they really were. I have Larry ranked #7

Rocky Marciano Lennox has twice as many title defenses as rocky. Rocky fought mostly geezers and lightheavyweights, while Lennox fought Prime 27 year olds and SuperHeavyweights. Lennox also defeated the dominant champ of the next era in Vitali Klitschko at a 6 year age disadvantage. Marciano was ALWAYS prime and fought with a youthful edge, then bailed from boxing at 32. I have Marciano ranked #4

Jack Dempsey Took 3 year vacations where he was allowed to keep the title, fought 4 round farces, and he ducked an entire race of people. He shouldnt even be on a top 10 list to be honest, but Ill give him the benefit of the doubt. I have Dempsey ranked #8

Frazier I can see Lennox beating or at least competing with any heavyweight that ever lived...I cant say the same for Joe Frazier because of his performance against George. If Jimmy Young and Lyle can give Foreman a fight why couldnt Frazier? Im not saying Frazier had to win but he didnt even tickle Foreman. I have Frazier ranked #13.

Jack JohnsonJack Johnson had an opportunity to set an example by facing black fighters late in his career, but he refused. He is just as guilty as Dempsey as far as Im concerned, but I think Dempsey is slightly more skilled so I barely give him him the edge. I have Johnson ranked #9.

Jeffries His best win is over a supermiddleweight that he outweighed by 40 lbs! The first guy he faced that was OVER 200lbs knocked his ass out. 37 year old Lennox > 35 year old Jeffries. I have jeff ranked #18.

Tyson Tyson is a year younger than Lennox, and ducked him relentlessly throughout the 90's. Lennox has the head 2 head victory and better overall record, so this is not a tough decision for me. I have Tyson ranked #6.

Lennox is Only 1 of 3 people in history to retire as the heavyweight champion of the world.

- The ONLY undisputed Heavyweight champion in the last 17 years

-Has wins over ATG Tyson, Holyfield, Klitschko, and by way of rematch has defeated every single opponent he ever faced.

-Fought at an age disadvantage for the last 10 fights of his career.

Age of Lennox and his last 10 opponentsAge Difference

Lennox(37) vs Vitali(31) +6
Lennox(36) vs Tyson(35) +1
Lennox(35) vs Rahman(28) +7
Lennox(35) vs David Tua(27) +8
Lennox(35) vs Botha(31) +4
Lennox(34) vs Michael Grant(27) +7
Lennox(33) vs Holyfield(36) -3
Lennox(33) vs Marovic(29) +4
Lennox(32) vs Briggs(26) +6
Lennox(32) vs Golota(29) +3

= +40 years


Physically he is the quickest and most skilled Big man to ever lace up gloves. Defeated every style and archetype of fighter there was. Big, small, fast, powerful, skilled, you name it.. I have Lennox ranked #3
I love your post. And I agree with most parts, except some of the rankings. But your look on Lewis really breaks it down to what it was. He fought every style, all ages and defeated all in rematches.

The_Demon
08-08-2010, 05:12 PM
ye hes top 10

frankenfrank
08-08-2010, 06:33 PM
He's above both Tyson and Frazier. In my eyes, Frazier is too overrated just because of the Ali fight. I love Frazier, great personality and a fighter. but...... His accomplishments are nowhere near top 10 worthy.

Well , Frazier is also overrated because of the Chuvalo , Quarry , Ellis , Mathis and Doug Jones fights , and a few more.

But nonetheless , still overrated , these guys were no Tua , McCall , nor were they even James Toney , Sam Peter , Jameel McCline , Ross Puritty or Dominick Guinn .


Off topic (remark against any doubts about what I claimed) :
Yes , James Toney at HW would have schholed these guys , they were smaller than Guinn , Peter , Rahman and Holyfield. Toney could have taken their punches , and would not have done any worse against them than he did against Peter and Rahman at least.

frankenfrank
08-08-2010, 06:37 PM
lewis is far greater than convicted rapist mike tyson.It's amazing how tyson still even has fans.There are few things more evil than rape and as far as I'm concerned he got off lightly.




a disgusting human being and an overrated boxer.

A quote from "Undisputed" : "some hos like it rough" .

turdleburgle
08-08-2010, 06:50 PM
A quote from "Undisputed" : "some hos like it rough" .





I dont know what "undisputed" is but rapists get no sympathy from me.



The fact that anyone would defend this sick **** is digusting.

frankenfrank
08-08-2010, 07:18 PM
I think he more than makes the top ten. He fought most of everyone out there. I would have liked to see him have fought wlad and some of the other belt holders in the 2000s but DK had his men on lock down from Lennox for good reason.

Exactly , most of everyone out there but :
(1) Why did he waited so much time before he fought Tyson and Holyfield ?
(2) Why did not he give enough time to McCall to rehab / recuperate from his
drug addiction ? or rematched him earlier ?
(3) Why did not he fight Byrd , Moorer and Ruiz but chose to fight Botha ,
Mavrovic , Justin Fortune and Phil Jackson instead ? some may also ask
about Lionel Butler. Note that I was aware not to credit the padding in
his early fights , because this is the usual case (except from Oleg
Maskaev).


When he lost he rematched them and KTFO, I think that is good, it shows the heart of a champion to want to avenge defeat.

Lewis was not even close to KO McCall , even when McCall stopped defending himself because of a mental breakdown which was caused by rehabilitation difficulties which without Lewis' team knowing about them , Lewis would have avoided a 2nd fight with McCall forever.





But after and despite all of these , I still rank him in my top 10 , and feel secure about this ranking. Who does have a better quality of opposition among the HW "greats" ?

No one else in HW history , except of Hassim Rahman and Ross Puritty comes close to Lewis in terms of quality of opposition , but Rahman lost and drew more than Lewis did , didn't he ?
Puritty lost lots of decisions in short fights , he did not even get the opportunity to stop his opponents late like he did against Wladimir Klitschko because of it.

But they are not considered "greats" .
Lewis' opposition > Ali's opposition.
And I do know how Ali "beat" George Foreman , what a feeling it is 2b d1 who knows the truth everyone else treats like a ghost's revelation.

Anthony342
08-08-2010, 10:26 PM
Did you even watch the Bowe - Lewis fight ?, the referee ****ed Bowe over big time giving him random warnings all through out the fight, Bowe rocked Lewis more in the first round then the supposed knockout punches that Lewis gave Bowe in the second. Bowe was ready to continue and was fine, completely biased ref.

People always say that Lewis beat him without actually watching the fight, even the commentators were saying it was an early stoppage.

This is the same Olympics were Roy Jones got done over by the judges, just thought I'd mention that.

Bowe matured a lot faster and better as a pro then Lewis especially with Futch in his corner, no doubt in my mind that Bowe would of beat him in 92/93' when they should of fought.

Then why didn't Bowe want to fight him? Why go on TV and throw the WBC belt in the garbage? Lewis was the mandatory challenger and Bowe didn't fight him, so he was stripped of the belt.

NChristo
08-08-2010, 10:34 PM
Then why didn't Bowe want to fight him? Why go on TV and throw the WBC belt in the garbage? Lewis was the mandatory challenger and Bowe didn't fight him, so he was stripped of the belt.

No idea, wish I knew.

Would of loved too see the fight or even for the Olympics too continue, was a great fight until that stoppage.

sonnyboyx2
08-09-2010, 01:06 AM
Bonecrusher, Witherspoon, Cooney and Berbick would have success though i'd favour Tua and McCall but Cobb, Bey and the rest, c'mon! : )
I rate Holmes above Lewis head to head or any other measure but I can't think beyond Witherspoon or the Norton (that Holmes fought) of any of Holmes opponents that Lewis wouldn't beat.
You have Lewis at 14(?) if memory serves I have him at around 12 so no major argument with your 14 ranking, but to say he would struggle with the likes of Bey or Cobb is you going back to Brian London/David Tua territory again.

i stick by London v Tua.. Tua just climbed off the floor to get a draw with old monte Barrett...London wouda slaughtered him, the problem with London is that the vast majority have never seen any footage of him...so they go to boxrec and make their assumptions up.

The same goes for this argument.. GJC have you seen much footage of David Bey? Bonecrusher Smith or Carl Williams?.. obviously not

Toney616
08-09-2010, 08:26 AM
Physical prime is 18-32 for all humans. I dont care what you think a fighters prime is,
This just shows your lack of honesty and boxing knowledge.

Nature says a 31 year old Vitali should have a significant youth advantage over A 37 year old Lennox. That 6 year gap is a lot wider than say a: 21 year old and a 27 year old...
That advantage would of been in terms of stamina, on the flip side Lewis would of had more experience and technical ability. Which is why older fighters can beat younger fighters off the top of my head:
McCallum-Collins, McCallum-Harding, Toney-Jirov,Hopkins-Pavlik, Holmes-Mercer etc etc

LL was past it and a rematch would be pointless.
Irrelevant, he still wanted to keep fighting and chose not to because he would of had to face Vitali again

Tyson is damned idiot either way. If he is that retarded to put himself in a situation like that, he deserves to be in prison.
He deserved to get sentence to 6 years in prison because he slept with a groupie?

He admitted to punching/robbing old ladies in the past, so either way, he belonged there.
Which is why he went to Tryon detention centre as a kid i.e he served his time for those crimes already

Holmes/Berbick had considerable youth advantages over Ali, so those werent great wins.
It has nothing to do with age, rather the amount of wear and tear Ali had endured during his fighting career

Lennox/Tyson: same age, both been ko'd twice, fair game.

Zags and Roy were both over 35, only 3 years apart, fair game.
Why dont you make a thread with a poll and see how many people online agree with this?

When Jones was at the top of his game, this is what Calzaghe said:
"I could probably give Jones a tough fight, probably the best fight he's ever had," said Calzaghe. "But I know my capabilities and unless I got paid the crown jewels I wouldn't want to risk it."
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/sport/article-5499540-i-am-the-best-says-honest-joe.do

When Jones was clearly on the slide this is what calzaghe said:
I preferred the Pavlik fight as Jones although a former P4P number one, he is way past his best, a fact widely accepted in boxing. I also think he is tarnished after failing a drugs test earlier in his career. In the 2008 latest edition of his autobiography, Joe states that Jones is "washed up" and in an interview in Boxing Monthly said he said he had "no interest" in fighting Jones, who he describes as "not a great fighter anymore" observing that "Roy's resistance is gone''
http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=16188

Joeyzagz
08-09-2010, 10:08 AM
This just shows your lack of honesty and boxing knowledge.

That advantage would of been in terms of stamina, on the flip side Lewis would of had more experience and technical ability. Which is why older fighters can beat younger fighters

Vitali was at his absolute best when he was 31 years old and had 33 fights. He was much more experienced than the guy who quit against Byrd, and he was a lot faster/stronger than the person who struggled with #20 Sosnoski a few months ago.

He had every advantage imaginable and still lost; fighting an even older and slower Lennox would prove nothing.

That advantage would of been in terms of stamina, on the flip side Lewis would of had more experience and technical ability. Which is why older fighters can beat younger fighters

I don't mind spelling errors and bad grammar, but saying "would of" instead of "would've" is just wrong. Stop using prepositions after verbs.

turdleburgle
08-10-2010, 02:37 AM
i stick by London v Tua.. Tua just climbed off the floor to get a draw with old monte Barrett...London wouda slaughtered him, the problem with London is that the vast majority have never seen any footage of him...so they go to boxrec and make their assumptions up.

The same goes for this argument.. GJC have you seen much footage of David Bey? Bonecrusher Smith or Carl Williams?.. obviously not




you are kidding? oh wait no your not lol.you really believe that tripe.

sonnyboyx2
08-10-2010, 07:49 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/04/sports/boxing-bronchitis-stops-tyson-seldon-fight-is-off.html?pagewanted=1

sonnyboyx2
08-10-2010, 07:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Toney616
08-10-2010, 09:39 AM
Vitali was at his absolute best when he was 31 years old and had 33 fights. He was much more experienced than the guy who quit against Byrd, and he was a lot faster/stronger than the person who struggled with #20 Sosnoski a few months ago.

He had every advantage imaginable and still lost;
Vitali made his pro debut in 1996-11-16 and fought Lewis in 2003-06-21. So thats roughly 6.5 years experience.

His best opponents were: Chris Byrd, Larry Donald and maybe Herbie Hide

Lewis made his pro debut in 1989-06-27 and fought Vitali in 2003-06-21. So thats roughly 14.0 years experience.

His best opponents were: Evander Holyfield*2 and David Tua

So Lewis has more pro experience and had faced the better level of competition

In terms of physical advantages Lewis looked like he had the better reflexes, footspeed and handspeed.

In terms of stamina, they were both tired by around round three

In terms of technical ability Lewis looked like he had a higher skill set, which was noticable in terms of his defense

Lewis also had a world class trainer in his corner:Manny Steward

In other words:

Footspeed: Lewis
Handspeed: Lewis
Power:Maybe Lewis
Experience: Lewis
Skillset: Lewis
Competiton faced: Lewis
Intangibles: Lewis
Stamina:Equal?

fighting an even older and slower Lennox would prove nothing.

Thats not the point, Lewis retired because he didn't want to face Vitali again, just like he vacated (and took step aside money from King) the IBF belt to avoid facing Byrd.

Tyson.
08-10-2010, 11:50 AM
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No top ten ATG hevayweight gets KOed in 2 rounds by Mccall in their prime.

WladIsTheChamp
08-10-2010, 03:29 PM
Lewis is top 5 for sure.

WladIsTheChamp
08-10-2010, 03:34 PM
11/. Holyfield
12/. Liston
13/. Bowe
14/. LEWIS....

You talk to so much of being a boxing historian yet you make this silly list?

Didn't Bowe dump a belt in the trash just so he wouldn't have to face him? Didn't Lewis destory Bowe in the amateurs? Didn't Bowe have two wars with Golota were Golota was kicking his @ss before he became mental and started using the low blows? Didn't Lewis destroy Golota in one round the very next fight?

It doesn't look like you know history that much. Let me guess, you also put Tyson ahead of Lewis.

sonnyboyx2
08-10-2010, 03:57 PM
You talk to so much of being a boxing historian yet you make this silly list?

Didn't Bowe dump a belt in the trash just so he wouldn't have to face him? Didn't Lewis destory Bowe in the amateurs? Didn't Bowe have two wars with Golota were Golota was kicking his @ss before he became mental and started using the low blows? Didn't Lewis destroy Golota in one round the very next fight?

It doesn't look like you know history that much. Let me guess, you also put Tyson ahead of Lewis.

i aint no boxing historian, i am just a guy who has followed the sport since i was a boy.

No Bowe never dumped his belt in the bin to avoid Lewis, he dumped it in the bin to say to the WBC "up you".. here is a link for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Lewis never destroyed Bowe in the Olympics like you claim, Bowe was "Robbed" in the Olympics by a corrupt referee who gave Bowe 14 warnings in the opening round..Bowe was destroying Lewis in that final... again here is a link for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K39AbwNl3QU

your correct in that Bowe and Golota had 2 brutal wars with Bowe winning both and neither fighter being the same after those wars... Mike Tyson destroyed Golota smashing his jaw in the opening round, Golota was also destroyed in the opening round by Lamon Brewster & Ray Austin... Yet when Golota fought Lewis he took a panic-attack in his dressing room and was tranquilized by doctors so was in no state to fight...

You ask do i put Tyson ahead of Lewis... of course i do, Lewis was nothing more than a first round KO for Tyson between 86-96

WladIsTheChamp
08-10-2010, 04:08 PM
i aint no boxing historian, i am just a guy who has followed the sport since i was a boy.

No Bowe never dumped his belt in the bin to avoid Lewis, he dumped it in the bin to say to the WBC "up you".. here is a link for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Lewis never destroyed Bowe in the Olympics like you claim, Bowe was "Robbed" in the Olympics by a corrupt referee who gave Bowe 14 warnings in the opening round..Bowe was destroying Lewis in that final... again here is a link for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K39AbwNl3QU

your correct in that Bowe and Golota had 2 brutal wars with Bowe winning both and neither fighter being the same after those wars... Mike Tyson destroyed Golota smashing his jaw in the opening round, Golota was also destroyed in the opening round by Lamon Brewster & Ray Austin... Yet when Golota fought Lewis he took a panic-attack in his dressing room and was tranquilized by doctors so was in no state to fight...

You ask do i put Tyson ahead of Lewis... of course i do, Lewis was nothing more than a first round KO for Tyson between 86-96

Bowe dumped his belt because they ordered that he fight Lewis, he chose to drop it rather than face it - he was scared since he alredy lost to him in the amateurs. Your excuses don't erase the fact that 1) he dumped the belt when ordered to face Lewis 2) he lost to Lewis in the amateurs.

And I still don't see your explanation as to why Bowe had two wars with Golota when Lewis destroyed Golota in one round. All you told me of how Brewster and Austin destroyed him in one round as well and how he was scared to death of facing Lewis. If anything, that just reinforces my point that your ranking of Bowe ahead of Lewis is not very well thought out, given the fact that Golota was brave enough to last with Bowe and give him problems yet had to be medicated to face Lewis and got destroyed by him in one round.

Oh, and Tyson lost to Lewis and Holyfield. Lewis beat Holyfield. Let me guess, Tyson was not in his "prime" when he lost to Lewis. LOL, I love that excuse. What about when he lost to Buster? Oh, wait, I know, Buster was Superman that night because his mom died.

Just out of curiousity, where do you put the Klitschkos in your unbiased rankings and well thought-out rankings?

Joeyzagz
08-10-2010, 05:06 PM
i aint no boxing historian, i am just a guy who has followed the sport since i was a boy.

No Bowe never dumped his belt in the bin to avoid Lewis, he dumped it in the bin to say to the WBC "up you".. here is a link for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo



Bowe clearly ducked Lewis in late 1993. This is a fact backed up by HBO, his manager Rock Newman, and by Bowes' own words and actions during that time period.

If a challenger ducks, then that challenger would be dropped in the rankings by the WBC. In this case Bowe did the ducking, thus he was punished and stripped. A punch-drunk interview 15 years later will not change his cowardly actions.

Joeyzagz
08-10-2010, 06:14 PM
Thats not the point, Lewis retired because he didn't want to face Vitali again, just like he vacated (and took step aside money from King) the IBF belt to avoid facing Byrd.

He retired because he had accomplished everything he set out to do, and he realized he wasn't getting any younger.

The only reason a boxer fights past his prime is because

A: They were stupid with their money(Cars, drugs illegitimate children)

B: They suffered a miss-step early in their career and are righting wrongs of the past (Foreman, Hopkins)

Lennox did not have this problem so he could go in peace.


If he beat Vitali, hed have to face Wladimir next, and if he beat Wladimir hed be accused of picking on Sanders and Brewsters leftovers....Then some mediocre guy like Peter would come along and knock A 40 y/o lennox out giving him parkinsons.

Win/lose/or draw I dont see Lennox improving his stance on the all-time list by continuing. In 2004 He had a win over every single one of his top peers and avenged all of his losses. He had little to gain and everything to lose by fighting on(Legacy/physical health).

Marciano retired too early, Ali retired too late, Lennox is one of the few who left on top, at the right time.

sonnyboyx2
08-11-2010, 01:30 AM
Bowe clearly ducked Lewis in late 1993. This is a fact backed up by HBO, his manager Rock Newman, and by Bowes' own words and actions during that time period.

If a challenger ducks, then that challenger would be dropped in the rankings by the WBC. In this case Bowe did the ducking, thus he was punished and stripped. A punch-drunk interview 15 years later will not change his cowardly actions.

so you are claiming that you are correct & Riddick Bowe in that interview is telling lies?

who is telling lies - you or Bowe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

sonnyboyx2
08-11-2010, 01:41 AM
Bowe dumped his belt because they ordered that he fight Lewis, he chose to drop it rather than face it - he was scared since he alredy lost to him in the amateurs. Your excuses don't erase the fact that 1) he dumped the belt when ordered to face Lewis 2) he lost to Lewis in the amateurs.

And I still don't see your explanation as to why Bowe had two wars with Golota when Lewis destroyed Golota in one round. All you told me of how Brewster and Austin destroyed him in one round as well and how he was scared to death of facing Lewis. If anything, that just reinforces my point that your ranking of Bowe ahead of Lewis is not very well thought out, given the fact that Golota was brave enough to last with Bowe and give him problems yet had to be medicated to face Lewis and got destroyed by him in one round.

Oh, and Tyson lost to Lewis and Holyfield. Lewis beat Holyfield. Let me guess, Tyson was not in his "prime" when he lost to Lewis. LOL, I love that excuse. What about when he lost to Buster? Oh, wait, I know, Buster was Superman that night because his mom died.

Just out of curiousity, where do you put the Klitschkos in your unbiased rankings and well thought-out rankings?

a load of made-up exaggerated rubbish without a single shred of proof other than your own vivid imagination.. you get funnier by the post... supply me with some links to disprove what i say and to prove what you claim to be correct....

You are quick to accuse Bowe of avoiding Lewis yet wasn`t Lewis stripped of every championship belt for refusing to fight the No1 contenders in Ruiz, Byrd & Vitali.... yes its ok for you to trash Riddick Bowe yet you deny Lewis did far worse in the next breath..
Lewis stripped of WBA belt for avoiding John Ruiz
Lewis stripped of IBF belt for avoiding Chris Byrd
Lewis stripped of WBC belt for avoiding Vitali

Lewis avoided every fighter in the world who was world rated and at "The Top of their Game" from 1991-2003..

this argument is easier than shelling peas

-CANE-
08-11-2010, 04:11 AM
i aint no boxing historian, i am just a guy who has followed the sport since i was a boy.

No Bowe never dumped his belt in the bin to avoid Lewis, he dumped it in the bin to say to the WBC "up you".. here is a link for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Lewis never destroyed Bowe in the Olympics like you claim, Bowe was "Robbed" in the Olympics by a corrupt referee who gave Bowe 14 warnings in the opening round..Bowe was destroying Lewis in that final... again here is a link for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K39AbwNl3QU

your correct in that Bowe and Golota had 2 brutal wars with Bowe winning both and neither fighter being the same after those wars... Mike Tyson destroyed Golota smashing his jaw in the opening round, Golota was also destroyed in the opening round by Lamon Brewster & Ray Austin... Yet when Golota fought Lewis he took a panic-attack in his dressing room and was tranquilized by doctors so was in no state to fight...

You ask do i put Tyson ahead of Lewis... of course i do, Lewis was nothing more than a first round KO for Tyson between 86-96


You're right Bowe was just saying "**** You" to the WBC.

Why should the best fighter on the planet risk his titles against someone who has already beaten him when he can defend his titles and get so much credibility against the likes of Dokes, Ferguson and Holyfield who he had already beaten.

sonnyboyx2
08-11-2010, 04:21 AM
You're right Bowe was just saying "**** You" to the WBC.

Why should the best fighter on the planet risk his titles against someone who has already beaten him when he can defend his titles and get so much credibility against the likes of Dokes, Ferguson and Holyfield who he had already beaten.

yeah but Lewis had never beaten Bowe... watch the link

-CANE-
08-11-2010, 04:36 AM
yeah but Lewis had never beaten Bowe... watch the link


He did beat him and just accept it. Whether it was controversial or not is neither here or there. It was the amatuers and irrelevant in the larger scheme of things.

You see I can slag off Lewis and find faults in him even though he is one of my favourite fighters. We can argue all day about who ducked who and get nowhere. All we can do is judge on what they did achieve and how they did it, and no matter what you come up with, it's fact that Lewis achieved more than Tyson and Bowe ever did.

Axl Rose
08-11-2010, 04:40 AM
The thing about Lennox Lewis is that he really was a great boxer. Strong amateur career and off course a great career as a pros.

But Lewis during hes career faught most of hes opponents when they were over the hill. And that is a fact. Tyson, Holyfield, Bruno, Tucker, Tyrell Biggs. When he faced people who was in their prime he got problems.

Ray Mercer clearly outjabbed him beck in 96, and he won the fight by one point. That was a controversial decision.

Holyfield was old, but he had also been thorugh alot of hard fights since the late 80s. Hes fights with Stewart, Cooper, Holmes, the three fights with Bowe, Michael Moorer and Tyson was hard brawls.

Tucker had been off for years struggling with cocaine addiction. Did a comebeck went the distance. Lewis knocked him down twice, but after that fight he did get knocked out by Seldon and Herbie Hide.

Bruno had also had a lay off and was late in hes career, when he outjabbed and was having control over Lewis for 7 rounds, before Lewis hit him with a big left hook and KO him.

Biggs had aslo stuggled with druggs and booze for years and been knocked out big time by Bowe and Tyson when he faced Lennox.

When he faced MCcall in 94, McCall was in hes prime and had Emanuel stewart as a trainer. McCall knocked him out in 2 rounds. In the rematch he was having emotional troubles and off course the cocaine addiction.

Klitschko was ahead on points on every card when the cut in hes face stopped the fight.

Agains Tua he outboxed him, but he didnt manage to hurt him at all.


Lewis is good, but not the greatest by fare,.

sonnyboyx2
08-11-2010, 07:09 AM
He did beat him and just accept it. Whether it was controversial or not is neither here or there. It was the amatuers and irrelevant in the larger scheme of things.

You see I can slag off Lewis and find faults in him even though he is one of my favourite fighters. We can argue all day about who ducked who and get nowhere. All we can do is judge on what they did achieve and how they did it, and no matter what you come up with, it's fact that Lewis achieved more than Tyson and Bowe ever did.

What did Lewis achieve that was greater than what Tyson achieved?

Tyson was the Youngest undisputed champion in history defending his undisputed title 7 times.

Lewis won the undisputed title by very dubious decision from Evander Holyfield with 42 of 49 ringside reporters having Holyfield the clear winner... Lewis NEVER ever defended that undisputed title as he was "Stripped" of each belt for refusing to face the No1 contenders... in fact Lewis whole career is fraudulent with Lewis picking a belt out of the garbage can and losing it to a journeyman, winning a 2nd Paper Title against a guy straight out of a Drug-rehab, winning a disputed decision for the undisputed title and having every belt stripped from him for refusing to fight the No1 contenders.

So you are wrong to claim Lewis achieved more than Mike Tyson... Tyson is a legend in the sport, Lewis career left alot to be desired and is not on the same level as Tysons

Joeyzagz
08-11-2010, 11:05 AM
so you are claiming that you are correct & Riddick Bowe in that interview is telling lies?

who is telling lies - you or Bowe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Dont believe me, Believe the Bowe of 93' who still had a functioning brain, and not the vegetable trying to save face on youtube.

What did Lewis achieve that was greater than what Tyson achieved?



Lennox defeated all of his top contemporaries: Tyson, Holyfield, Klitschko, Tua, Bowe, avenged all of his losses(rahman, Mcall), and retired as wbc Heavyweight champion of the world.

Tyson ruled when the division was run by geezers and blown up LHW's but ran to hide in jail when the big dogs arrived in the early 90's. Tyson wanted no part of George Foreman, no part of Bowe or Lennox, and he lost to Holyfield despite Holy being 4 years older and coming off a trilogy of wars.

Tyson will be known for beating scrubs like Marvis Frazier and Henry Tillman. That is his legacy. A lhw who was the slowest and fattest of his career, and beating a guy he had an EIGHT-TEEN year youth advantage over.

Lennox destroyed the 1 year younger Tyson Head 2 Head, and gave him the worst beating of his natural life.
http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/17/article-1261064025560-0051DC6000000258-486599_466x343.jpg

Tyson.
08-11-2010, 11:52 AM
Prime for prime Lewis loses to Bowe, Holyfield and Tyson.

A good fighter but his robotic style isnt good enough to make the top ten.

sonnyboyx2
08-11-2010, 03:02 PM
Dont believe me, Believe the Bowe of 93' who still had a functioning brain, and not the vegetable trying to save face on youtube.



Lennox defeated all of his top contemporaries: Tyson, Holyfield, Klitschko, Tua, Bowe, avenged all of his losses(rahman, Mcall), and retired as wbc Heavyweight champion of the world.

Tyson ruled when the division was run by geezers and blown up LHW's but ran to hide in jail when the big dogs arrived in the early 90's. Tyson wanted no part of George Foreman, no part of Bowe or Lennox, and he lost to Holyfield despite Holy being 4 years older and coming off a trilogy of wars.

Tyson will be known for beating scrubs like Marvis Frazier and Henry Tillman. That is his legacy. A lhw who was the slowest and fattest of his career, and beating a guy he had an EIGHT-TEEN year youth advantage over.

Lennox destroyed the 1 year younger Tyson Head 2 Head, and gave him the worst beating of his natural life.
http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/17/article-1261064025560-0051DC6000000258-486599_466x343.jpg

nuthugger who is completely deluded.. everything you claim in your post is made-up rubbish...

a question for you, "which fighters did Lewis beat who was at the top of their game?

NChristo
08-11-2010, 03:23 PM
Lennox defeated all of his top contemporaries: Tyson, Holyfield, Klitschko, Tua, Bowe, avenged all of his losses(rahman, Mcall), and retired as wbc Heavyweight champion of the world.


How are you counting Bowe as a win for Lewis ?, either you've never seen the Olympics fight where Bowe was basically robbed of a fair ref or you think if someone ducks Lewis, Lewis wins ?

Bowe rocked Lewis more in the 1st round of the fight then the supposed knock out punches that Lewis gave Bowe in the 2nd, Bowe was clearly ready to continue and wtf was with all the random warnings ?, wish people would actually watch the fight instead of just saying Lewis won.

Toney616
08-11-2010, 03:32 PM
He retired because he had accomplished everything he set out to do, and he realized he wasn't getting any younger.

The only reason a boxer fights past his prime is because

A: They were stupid with their money(Cars, drugs illegitimate children)

B: They suffered a miss-step early in their career and are righting wrongs of the past (Foreman, Hopkins)


C: They love the fame/attention (my addition)

Lennox did not have this problem so he could go in peace.

Valid points

If he beat Vitali, hed have to face Wladimir next, and if he beat Wladimir hed be accused of picking on Sanders and Brewsters leftovers....Then some mediocre guy like Peter would come along and knock A 40 y/o lennox out giving him parkinsons.
True, I can imagine that scenario happening

Win/lose/or draw I dont see Lennox improving his stance on the all-time list by continuing. In 2004 He had a win over every single one of his top peers and avenged all of his losses. He had little to gain and everything to lose by fighting on(Legacy/physical health).

Marciano retired too early, Ali retired too late, Lennox is one of the few who left on top, at the right time.

He left with his health intact and money in the bank, good for him

-CANE-
08-11-2010, 04:05 PM
What did Lewis achieve that was greater than what Tyson achieved?

Tyson was the Youngest undisputed champion in history defending his undisputed title 7 times.

Lewis won the undisputed title by very dubious decision from Evander Holyfield with 42 of 49 ringside reporters having Holyfield the clear winner... Lewis NEVER ever defended that undisputed title as he was "Stripped" of each belt for refusing to face the No1 contenders... in fact Lewis whole career is fraudulent with Lewis picking a belt out of the garbage can and losing it to a journeyman, winning a 2nd Paper Title against a guy straight out of a Drug-rehab, winning a disputed decision for the undisputed title and having every belt stripped from him for refusing to fight the No1 contenders.

So you are wrong to claim Lewis achieved more than Mike Tyson... Tyson is a legend in the sport, Lewis career left alot to be desired and is not on the same level as Tysons

You really do over exagerate everything. Listen Tyson was nothing short of spectacular in his first reign and no one can argue that, winning a title so young and the way he knocked people out was a breath of fresh air. He bought excitement to a very weak, fat and lazy division. (Not just my words, but the words of every boxing historian at the time). I have thousands of boxing magazines and was one of the most devoted of boxing fans on the planet. Go get yourself some copies of boxing news,the ring,ko,world boxing,boxing 85 and onwards or boxing monthly (first published edition feb 1990).

Tysons legacy will always be winning the title at a young age and the manner in which he dispatched them and not the quality or longevity of his reign. Believe me son when I say Lewis fought a better quality of oppostion than Tyson.

I think you'll find in the first Holyfield fight most observers at ringside said Lewis was robbed and he was. The second fight was a lot closer and a decent argument can be made for either fighter. Maybe Lewis was given the decision because of what happened in the first fight (Nothing surprises me in boxing)

It's ok to excuse Tyson of every defeat because of personal problems or Robin Givens, Don King, Rooney, Atlas, Cus, past his prime go on pick one it don't mean ****. Same as Lewis' excuses for his defeats, I could list several but it don't mean jack **** mate.

Regardless of how Lewis was awarded the title, how McCall was in the rematch or whatever it wasn't Lewis' fault. Believe what you want but he wanted the best fighters out there, and yes me made mistakes in stepping aside for Tyson to fight Seldon, but he more than likely had guarantees of fighting him soon after.

If Tyson really wanted to prove himself, he would of fought Lewis then and there and not got him to step aside so he could win a meaningless title fight against Seldon.

Lewis had his faults like every other fighter, but you can't argue he always found a way to win, even against fighters that had already beaten him.

Because in the end he did win, he retired as undisputed champion after such a long career. Regardless of whether or not he was stripped he was the man and everyone knew it. Just because a sanctioning body has someone as their no.1 doesn't always equate that is the best challenger out there. You see it doesn't matter who these fighters were that he fought or didn't people like you will always say he took the easy route, when in fact Lewis did it the hard way and fulfilled his goal despite everything many did to keep him frozen out of the picture.

Do I rate Lewis the best heavyweight ever No. But for me on achievments and on a head to head basis I have four who stand out. Ali,Louis,Holmes and Lewis. A lot could of beaten Lewis but knowing how clever Lewis was, and knowing what I do about boxing having seen over 20,000 fights and reading thousands of magazines regulary and studying the heavyweights especially then Lewis comes out near the very top whatever criteria I use. Just my opinion and it counts for nothing but at least I'm not blinded and hellbent on coming up with any rubbish I can find and then claim it fact. Stay neutral even with fighters you really have a dislike for, trust me it stops you making a complete and utter fool of yourself.




Lennox defeated all of his top contemporaries: Tyson, Holyfield, Klitschko, Tua, Bowe, avenged all of his losses(rahman, Mcall), and retired as wbc Heavyweight champion of the world.

Tyson ruled when the division was run by geezers and blown up LHW's but ran to hide in jail when the big dogs arrived in the early 90's. Tyson wanted no part of George Foreman, no part of Bowe or Lennox, and he lost to Holyfield despite Holy being 4 years older and coming off a trilogy of wars.

Tyson will be known for beating scrubs like Marvis Frazier and Henry Tillman. That is his legacy. A lhw who was the slowest and fattest of his career, and beating a guy he had an EIGHT-TEEN year youth advantage over.

Lennox destroyed the 1 year younger Tyson Head 2 Head, and gave him the worst beating of his natural life.


C'mon your making yourself sound as bad as some of these other idiots. Tyson was known for a lot more than that, give the guy some credit.

GJC
08-11-2010, 10:29 PM
i stick by London v Tua.. Tua just climbed off the floor to get a draw with old monte Barrett...London wouda slaughtered him, the problem with London is that the vast majority have never seen any footage of him...so they go to boxrec and make their assumptions up.

The same goes for this argument.. GJC have you seen much footage of David Bey? Bonecrusher Smith or Carl Williams?.. obviously not

I've seen a fair bit of London Sonny, he wasn't very good.
Didn't include Smith as a quite liked him but unlike you I didn't have his fight with Holmes close.
Seen enough of Williams and Bey to know that Williams didn't have enough and Bey pretty much didn't have anything.

Joeyzagz
08-12-2010, 02:57 AM
a question for you, "which fighters did Lewis beat who was at the top of their game?
I answered this a thousand times....

Shannon Briggs(Prime, High KO % plus roids)
Hasim Rahman (Prime 28. Was at his physical apex, had just KOd Lewis)
Henry Akinwande (Prime Undefeated 6'7 giant)
Andrew Golota (Prime. No real losses on his record, destroyed Bowe twice)
Vitali Klitschko (32-1(31Kos) Prime 6'8 KO machine, ATG)

^^^all were at there best coming in to fight Lewis .



C'mon your making yourself sound as bad as some of these other idiots. Tyson was known for a lot more than that, give the guy some credit.

We speak in hyperbole in the history forum. Carlos & Sonny started this game when they couldnt discredit Lennox based on hard facts, so they resorted to slander, nitpicks and exaggerations.

sonnyboyx2
08-12-2010, 03:14 AM
I've seen a fair bit of London Sonny, he wasn't very good.
Didn't include Smith as a quite liked him but unlike you I didn't have his fight with Holmes close.
Seen enough of Williams and Bey to know that Williams didn't have enough and Bey pretty much didn't have anything.

GJC you surprise me... all i can say is that you cannot have watched Larry Holmes fights with Smith, Bey & Williams... both Smith & Williams was on the verge of inflicting Holmes with his first career defeat, Smith was unfortunate to suffer a cut which halted their fight in Holmes favor with Holmes looking on the verge of defeat with Smith in almost complete command, Williams beat Holmes to a pulp with his jab and when Holmes got the verdict the crowd was in uproar at it, David Bey was the unluckiest fighter ever not to win a version of the heavyweight title after he defeated Greg Page in 1984 and was the No1 contender for Gerrie Coetzee WBA Title, Bey was persuaded by Don King, Arthur Ash & others not to go over to South Africa and face Coetzee because of the countries apartheid policy so Don King had Greg Page go over who won the title from Coetzee. David Bey had Larry Holmes on queer street several times during their fight and he was a decent fighter... Brian London you must tell me which fights of London you have seen?

sonnyboyx2
08-12-2010, 03:25 AM
I answered this a thousand times....

Shannon Briggs(Prime, High KO % plus roids)
Hasim Rahman (Prime 28. Was at his physical apex, had just KOd Lewis)
Henry Akinwande (Prime Undefeated 6'7 giant)
Andrew Golota (Prime. No real losses on his record, destroyed Bowe twice)
Vitali Klitschko (32-1(31Kos) Prime 6'8 KO machine, ATG)

^^^all were at there best coming in to fight Lewis .


We speak in hyperbole in the history forum. Carlos & Sonny started this game when they couldnt discredit Lennox based on hard facts, so they resorted to slander, nitpicks and exaggerations.

its you who cannot supply the "Hard Facts" all you ever supply is figments of your own vivid imagination .

Briggs, Rahman, Akinwande, Golota & Vitali was all exposed fighters, they had suffered devastating KO defeats or had been shown to "QUIT" they are also not class A fighters and for you to claim Lewis defeated Vitali on an almost daily basis is simply not true.. so if you want to prove Lewis to be this mythical super fighter you try to imply then show us the evidence, show us that he did not get stripped of every version of the title for refusing to fight the No1 contenders, show us that he beat the best fighters in the world from 92-98, instead of making up a case for Lewis on how old he was against his limited opponents... a fighters age is deemed by the tough fights that fighter has had during his career.

GJC
08-12-2010, 02:26 PM
GJC you surprise me... all i can say is that you cannot have watched Larry Holmes fights with Smith, Bey & Williams... both Smith & Williams was on the verge of inflicting Holmes with his first career defeat, Smith was unfortunate to suffer a cut which halted their fight in Holmes favor with Holmes looking on the verge of defeat with Smith in almost complete command, Williams beat Holmes to a pulp with his jab and when Holmes got the verdict the crowd was in uproar at it, David Bey was the unluckiest fighter ever not to win a version of the heavyweight title after he defeated Greg Page in 1984 and was the No1 contender for Gerrie Coetzee WBA Title, Bey was persuaded by Don King, Arthur Ash & others not to go over to South Africa and face Coetzee because of the countries apartheid policy so Don King had Greg Page go over who won the title from Coetzee. David Bey had Larry Holmes on queer street several times during their fight and he was a decent fighter... Brian London you must tell me which fights of London you have seen?

I remember the Smith v Holmes fight best and Smith whilst plucky was outclassed. Williams as I recall gave a good account of himself but whilst Holmes was on the decline I can't recall a problem with the verdict. Don't doubt that Bey might have beat Coetzee as I don't rate Coetzee either. Can't remember the Bey Holmes fight but will watch it.
Re London I saw him against Cooper, Ali, Pastrano, Valdes and Machen he fought in the era where I was going to a fair few fights. I'd put him in the Dave Boy Green class, willing brave but not talented.

Bright-Eyes
08-13-2010, 12:22 PM
I remember the Smith v Holmes fight best and Smith whilst plucky was outclassed. Williams as I recall gave a good account of himself but whilst Holmes was on the decline I can't recall a problem with the verdict. Don't doubt that Bey might have beat Coetzee as I don't rate Coetzee either. Can't remember the Bey Holmes fight but will watch it.
Re London I saw him against Cooper, Ali, Pastrano, Valdes and Machen he fought in the era where I was going to a fair few fights. I'd put him in the Dave Boy Green class, willing brave but not talented.



I thought Williams won that clearly.He out jabbed Holmes pretty badly in that fight.


I can see Williams casuing someone like Tua a great deal of difficulty with his jab.Tua was never that hard to outbox.It was surviving him for the the end bell that was the problem

BennyST
08-13-2010, 12:53 PM
Physical Prime is generally the same for all humans and it applies to every athlete across the board. Males lose 2% of their testosterone every year after they turn 30. This is a REAL fact of nature and not some silly boxing argument.

Age is the ONLY variable that is totally out of the athletes control which is why I place emphasis on it. Everything else is the responsibility of the fighter.

It is up to the athlete to train properly for a fight
It is up to the athlete to protect his chin and reduce punishment.
It is up to the athlete to refrain from drug use
It is up to the athlete to NOT rape women and spend 3 years in jail.

Tyson being finished as an elite fighter at 23 is Tyson's fault, and the direct result of the decisions he made as a person. I can only go by reality... If you want to make a hypothetical list where Lennox smokes crack and Tyson is not such a moron with his career then we can take it to the fantasy forum.

So you agree that he was finished at 23?

turdleburgle
08-13-2010, 01:12 PM
Lol at all these nuthuggers claiming tyson was done at 23.A bunch of seriously deluded fanboys.



never understood how a rapist would have such support.

Ziggy Stardust
08-13-2010, 02:28 PM
I remember the Smith v Holmes fight best and Smith whilst plucky was outclassed. Williams as I recall gave a good account of himself but whilst Holmes was on the decline I can't recall a problem with the verdict. Don't doubt that Bey might have beat Coetzee as I don't rate Coetzee either. Can't remember the Bey Holmes fight but will watch it.
Re London I saw him against Cooper, Ali, Pastrano, Valdes and Machen he fought in the era where I was going to a fair few fights. I'd put him in the Dave Boy Green class, willing brave but not talented.

The Bey fight was where boxing experts started talking about Holmes being past it and ready to be taken.

Poet

GJC
08-13-2010, 02:34 PM
The Bey fight was where boxing experts started talking about Holmes being past it and ready to be taken.

Poet
Just had a look and saw that the Williams and Bey fight were the 2 before the Spinks fights. Not really the best fights to promote both of their careers on unless we go down the road of looking at Berbicks career based on the Ali fight, Armstrong on the SRR fight, Norris Leonard etc etc.

GJC
08-13-2010, 02:36 PM
I thought Williams won that clearly.He out jabbed Holmes pretty badly in that fight.


I can see Williams casuing someone like Tua a great deal of difficulty with his jab.Tua was never that hard to outbox.It was surviving him for the the end bell that was the problem
Will have to have another look at the fight it's been a few years. As I remember Holmes career re verdicts I think that Norton was a coin toss and you could argue either way, Witherspoon got poorly served by the judges and Holmes the same against Spinks the second time.

prinzemanspopa
08-13-2010, 03:27 PM
Holmes was hardly washed up when he was outboxed and beaten up by Williams, and when beaten twice by light-heavyweight,Michael Spinks.He was slightly past his prime,at best.


Holmes was around 30 when he hit his peak.Spent the next few years cherry picking his way around the heavyweight division and still had enough let to be mildly competitive with the heavyweights of the 90's.

Ziggy Stardust
08-13-2010, 08:07 PM
Holmes was hardly washed up when he was outboxed and beaten up by Williams, and when beaten twice by light-heavyweight,Michael Spinks.He was slightly past his prime,at best.


Holmes was around 30 when he hit his peak.Spent the next few years cherry picking his way around the heavyweight division and still had enough let to be mildly competitive with the heavyweights of the 90's.

Shock: Prinzessgirls has found a new fighter to hate on. Loser :loser9:

Poet

turdleburgle
08-14-2010, 12:23 AM
its you who cannot supply the "Hard Facts" all you ever supply is figments of your own vivid imagination .

Briggs, Rahman, Akinwande, Golota & Vitali was all exposed fighters, they had suffered devastating KO defeats or had been shown to "QUIT" they are also not class A fighters and for you to claim Lewis defeated Vitali on an almost daily basis is simply not true.. so if you want to prove Lewis to be this mythical super fighter you try to imply then show us the evidence, show us that he did not get stripped of every version of the title for refusing to fight the No1 contenders, show us that he beat the best fighters in the world from 92-98, instead of making up a case for Lewis on how old he was against his limited opponents... a fighters age is deemed by the tough fights that fighter has had during his career.



your hatred of lennox lewis is distubring.he cleared out his division and best everyone he ever fought.he is an atg.

lolivivi
08-14-2010, 02:58 AM
Ali is timeless classic, who were not beyond.

prinzemanspopa
08-14-2010, 11:19 AM
Shock: Prinzessgirls has found a new fighter to hate on. Loser :loser9:

Poet



I've never liked or rated Holmes that highly.His legacy and achievments are overrated and he's not deserving of any "underrated" tag.


A heavyweight great,with as long a reign as he had, would never have ducked and avoided as many top rated heavyweights as he did.



Good fighter with an exceptional jab - that's his legacy

Toney616
08-14-2010, 11:26 AM
A heavyweight great,with as long a reign as he had, would never have ducked and avoided as many top rated heavyweights as he did.

Who did he avoid and what is your proof?

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 11:27 AM
Who did he avoid and what is your proof?

The little troll "rates" maybe a handful of his personal favorites and writes hate pieces about all the rest :puke:

Poet

Toney616
08-14-2010, 11:29 AM
The little troll "rates" maybe a handful of his personal favorites and writes hate pieces about all the rest :puke:

Poet
True, that does seem to be his method of operation in this forum

prinzemanspopa
08-14-2010, 11:55 AM
Who did he avoid and what is your proof?



Pinklon Thomas,Michael Dokes,John Tate,Gerrie Coetzee and Greg Page:All superior to the unheralded,sometimes even unranked contenders that old Lar enjoyed giving/handing title opportunities to.



Pinklon Thomas - title holder: Ducked
John Tate - title holder: Ducked
Gerrie Coetzee - title holder: Ducked
Greg Page - mandatory and title holder: Ducked
Michael Dokes - title holder: Ducked



He'd later sign to to fight Tate,although Tate was nowhere near as highly regarded as he had been when he did win the title.

Toney616
08-14-2010, 12:03 PM
Pinklon Thomas,Michael Dokes,John Tate,Gerrie Coetzee and Greg Page:All superior to the unheralded,sometimes even unranked contenders that old Lar enjoyed giving/handing title opportunities to.



Pinklon Thomas - title holder: Ducked
John Tate - title holder: Ducked
Gerrie Coetzee - title holder: Ducked
Greg Page - mandatory and title holder: Ducked
Michael Dokes - title holder: Ducked



He'd later sign to to fight Tate,although Tate was nowhere near as highly regarded as he had been when he did win the title.
Thanks for answering my question

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 12:38 PM
Pinklon Thomas - title holder: Ducked
John Tate - title holder: Ducked
Gerrie Coetzee - title holder: Ducked
Greg Page - mandatory and title holder: Ducked
Michael Dokes - title holder: Ducked


Greg Page: Prior to 1984 the only fighter of real note he had beaten was James Tillis. Then in '84 through '85 lost 3 out of 4 fights to disqualify himself from any title shot.

Michael Dokes: Didn't rise to prominence until '82-'83 when he beat Mike Weaver twice.....then got KOed in his next fight to kill his chances of a shot at Holmes.

Pinklon Thomas: Wasn't a real contender until '84-'85 when Holmes was having his fights with Spinks then retiring. He peaked after Holmes was on the way out.

John Tate: Only claim to fame was beating Coetzee in '79.....then was brutally KOed in his next 2 fights and fell to journeyman status. A flash in the pan.

Gerrie Coetzee: A South African never-was whose only victory of note during the period in question was a win over an out-of-shape Michael Dokes and had already lost to Weaver, Snipes, and Tate. Please.....doesn't even deserve to be labled a "contender".

Poet

GJC
08-14-2010, 12:43 PM
Thanks for answering my question
Well not really, all the fighters named preferred to fight it out for the lesser regarded WBA title than challenge Holmes.
As for them being a title holders and Holmes unifying none of the fighters named could hold onto the WBA title for longer than a week making it a moot point really.

GJC
08-14-2010, 12:45 PM
Greg Page: Prior to 1984 the only fighter of real note he had beaten was James Tillis. Then in '84 through '85 lost 3 out of 4 fights to disqualify himself from any title shot.

Michael Dokes: Didn't rise to prominence until '82-'83 when he beat Mike Weaver twice.....then got KOed in his next fight to kill his chances of a shot at Holmes.

Pinklon Thomas: Wasn't a real contender until '84-'85 when Holmes was having his fights with Spinks then retiring. He peaked after Holmes was on the way out.

John Tate: Only claim to fame was beating Coetzee in '79.....then was brutally KOed in his next 2 fights and fell to journeyman status. A flash in the pan.

Gerrie Coetzee: A South African never-was whose only victory of note during the period in question was a win over an out-of-shape Michael Dokes and had already lost to Weaver, Snipes, and Tate. Please.....doesn't even deserve to be labled a "contender".

Poet

Or if you want a more detailed rebuttal............. :)

Toney616
08-14-2010, 12:47 PM
Well not really, all the fighters named preferred to fight it out for the lesser regarded WBA title than challenge Holmes.
As for them being a title holders and Holmes unifying none of the fighters named could hold onto the WBA title for longer than a week making it a moot point really.
I meant thanks as in him getting back to me, I was still planning on checking it out myself.

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 12:47 PM
Or if you want a more detailed rebuttal............. :)

I mean seriously.....Coetzee was a joke: Francois Botha with even less ability :hahahaha9:

Poet

Toney616
08-14-2010, 12:48 PM
Or if you want a more detailed rebuttal............. :)
Yeah, Poet did the work for me

Toney616
08-14-2010, 12:50 PM
I mean seriously.....Coetzee was a joke: Francois Botha with even less ability :hahahaha9:

Poet

In your opinion who was Holmes best 4 opponents? I also heard that Holmes could go through Ali's resume undefeated, do you agree with that statement?

Toney616
08-14-2010, 12:51 PM
Greg Page: Prior to 1984 the only fighter of real note he had beaten was James Tillis. Then in '84 through '85 lost 3 out of 4 fights to disqualify himself from any title shot.

Michael Dokes: Didn't rise to prominence until '82-'83 when he beat Mike Weaver twice.....then got KOed in his next fight to kill his chances of a shot at Holmes.

Pinklon Thomas: Wasn't a real contender until '84-'85 when Holmes was having his fights with Spinks then retiring. He peaked after Holmes was on the way out.

John Tate: Only claim to fame was beating Coetzee in '79.....then was brutally KOed in his next 2 fights and fell to journeyman status. A flash in the pan.

Gerrie Coetzee: A South African never-was whose only victory of note during the period in question was a win over an out-of-shape Michael Dokes and had already lost to Weaver, Snipes, and Tate. Please.....doesn't even deserve to be labled a "contender".

Poet
Thanks for this

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 12:53 PM
In your opinion who was Holmes best 4 opponents? I also heard that Holmes could go through Ali's resume undefeated, do you agree with that statement?

I doubt it.....I can't see him fighting Liston x2, Frazier x3, Patterson x2, Norton x3, and Foreman without picking up a loss or two somewhere.....no shame to Holmes as I can't see ANYONE going undefeated through that lineup.

Holmes 4 best?

Weaver
Norton
Shavers
Cooney

GJC
08-14-2010, 12:54 PM
I mean seriously.....Coetzee was a joke: Francois Botha with even less ability :hahahaha9:

Poet
You are talking about Frank Bruno's landmark fight there :)
The fact that he spent the afternoon of the fight shopping at Harrods did me me suspect we wasn't going to get our moneys worth there!

Also with Coetzee v Holmes you can't overlook the whole South Africa/apertheid thing I remember Tate getting a lot of stick for fighting over there.
As for Tate I remember Noel Quarless beating him, ok he was past prime but I was 50 then and I would have fancied my chances against Quarless

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 12:56 PM
You are talking about Frank Bruno's landmark fight there :)
The fact that he spent the afternoon of the fight shopping at Harrods did me me suspect we wasn't going to get our moneys worth there!

Also with Coetzee v Holmes you can't overlook the whole South Africa/apertheid thing I remember Tate getting a lot of stick for fighting over there.
As for Tate I remember Noel Quarless beating him, ok he was past prime but I was 50 then and I would have fancied my chances against Quarless

If it wasn't for the fact that he was from South Africa I'd be calling Coetzee just another Euro-Fraud :)

Poet

GJC
08-14-2010, 12:56 PM
Yeah, Poet did the work for me
You'll find with Poop that if he doesn't like a fighter, and I'm struggling to think of one he does like, he counts it as ducking if they don't fight every fighter who was roughly their weight and between the ages of 14 and 60 during their reign. Even if it meant they would have had to fight 3 times a week and often for free.

Toney616
08-14-2010, 12:59 PM
I doubt it.....I can't see him fighting Liston x2, Frazier x3, Patterson x2, Norton x3, and Foreman without picking up a loss or two somewhere.....no shame to Holmes as I can't see ANYONE going undefeated through that lineup.
I think he loses to Liston, beats Patterson and has some loses against the others as well

Holmes 4 best?

Weaver
Norton
Shavers
Cooney
Thanks for this

NChristo
08-14-2010, 12:59 PM
You'll find with Poop that if he doesn't like a fighter, and I'm struggling to think of one he does like, he counts it as ducking if they don't fight every fighter who was roughly their weight and between the ages of 14 and 60 during their reign. Even if it meant they would have had to fight 3 times a week and often for free.

The only people I've seen him give praise to is Michael Spinks, Evander Holyfield and Mac Foster, while I've been here anyway.

GJC
08-14-2010, 01:01 PM
If it wasn't for the fact that he was from South Africa I'd be calling Coetzee just another Euro-Fraud :)

Poet

Be interesting to see how he did these days. He'd be very popular amongst some for sure :)

He falls into the category for me of people saying "Yeah but he has a punch"
Ok he's 200lbs and if you let him hit you squarly on the jaw he'll wobble you, I'm 71 but I know where to hit you and how so if you stick your chin out I'm pretty sure it will sting a bit, wheres my title shot!

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 01:01 PM
I think he loses to Liston, beats Patterson and has some loses against the others as well

Thanks for this

He has some other fights in his prime against good opponents but those are the top 4 I think. Witherspoon would go to the top of the list if it wasn't for the fact he was so green for his fight with Holmes.

Poet

Toney616
08-14-2010, 01:02 PM
You'll find with Poop that if he doesn't like a fighter, and I'm struggling to think of one he does like,.
I think he likes: Jones, Tyson and Holyfield

he counts it as ducking if they don't fight every fighter who was roughly their weight and between the ages of 14 and 60 during their reign. Even if it meant they would have had to fight 3 times a week and often for free.
lol, that seems to be the criteria applied to a lot of ex fighters these days

Vadrigar.
08-14-2010, 01:03 PM
The only people I've seen him give praise to is Michael Spinks, Evander Holyfield and Mac Foster, while I've been here anyway.

He accuses Joe Frazier of avoiding Mac Foster, which could be a reason why he praises him. He probably likes the fighters that gave Joe trouble or ones that Joe ducked. (according to him)

Toney616
08-14-2010, 01:03 PM
He has some other fights in his prime against good opponents but those are the top 4 I think. Witherspoon would go to the top of the list if it wasn't for the fact he was so green for his fight with Holmes.

Poet
Witherspoon was green, I think he only had 15 fights or so, but I think he deserved to get the win, against Holmes.

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 01:04 PM
Be interesting to see how he did these days. He'd be very popular amongst some for sure :)

I'm pretty sure he has the right pigmentation for some poster around these parts :cool9:

Poet

GJC
08-14-2010, 01:04 PM
He accuses Joe Frazier of avoiding Mac Foster, which could be a reason why he praises him. He probably likes the fighters that gave Joe trouble or ones that Joe ducked. (according to him)

I think he likes Mac Foster as much as Stone Roses and Tunney like Palestinians and for pretty much the same reasons and with the same logic

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 01:08 PM
Witherspoon was green, I think he only had 15 fights or so, but I think he deserved to get the win, against Holmes.

I had Holmes just shading it.....but still it was a sure sign that Holmes was starting to slide.

Poet

Toney616
08-14-2010, 01:09 PM
I had Holmes just shading it.....but still it was a sure sign that Holmes was starting to slide.

Poet
We are going to have to compare scorecards one of these days

Vadrigar.
08-14-2010, 01:09 PM
I think he likes Mac Foster as much as Stone Roses and Tunney like Palestinians and for pretty much the same reasons and with the same logic

Add Oscar Bonavena to the mix, his previous avatar. :)

http://www.antekprizering.com/bonavena6185.jpeg

Anything which fuels his hate for Joe Frazier gets approval. He even refers to Joe Frazier being arrested.

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 01:11 PM
We are going to have to compare scorecards one of these days

I'll have to rescore it.....I forgot what my exact totals were but I believe I had Homes winning by 1 point on my card.

Poet

GJC
08-14-2010, 01:11 PM
I had Holmes just shading it.....but still it was a sure sign that Holmes was starting to slide.

Poet
Talented fighter Witherspoon one of the great what ifs for my money

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 01:12 PM
Talented fighter Witherspoon one of the great what ifs for my money

Yeah, he could have been the dominant Heavyweight of the last half of the 80s and into the 90s if he hadn't run afowl of Don King and cocaine.

Poet

GJC
08-14-2010, 01:24 PM
Yeah, he could have been the dominant Heavyweight of the last half of the 80s and into the 90s if he hadn't run afowl of Don King and cocaine.

Poet
Him against Tyson and Holyfield maybe even Bowe and Lewis would have been interesting.

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 01:29 PM
Him against Tyson and Holyfield maybe even Bowe and Lewis would have been interesting.

At the time I had him pegged as the guy who would take Tyson's "0".

Poet

GJC
08-14-2010, 01:50 PM
At the time I had him pegged as the guy who would take Tyson's "0".

Poet
I could only see him or Holyfield (then moving up from cruiser) troubling Tyson although I went off Holyfield beating Tyson after seeing him against Foreman and Holmes.
We ought to do a poll sometime on which fighter Don King screwed the most.

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 01:53 PM
We ought to do a poll sometime on which fighter Don King screwed the most.

The possibilities are endless :hahahaha9:

Poet

prinzemanspopa
08-14-2010, 02:11 PM
Greg Page: Prior to 1984 the only fighter of real note he had beaten was James Tillis. Then in '84 through '85 lost 3 out of 4 fights to disqualify himself from any title shot.

Michael Dokes: Didn't rise to prominence until '82-'83 when he beat Mike Weaver twice.....then got KOed in his next fight to kill his chances of a shot at Holmes.

Pinklon Thomas: Wasn't a real contender until '84-'85 when Holmes was having his fights with Spinks then retiring. He peaked after Holmes was on the way out.

John Tate: Only claim to fame was beating Coetzee in '79.....then was brutally KOed in his next 2 fights and fell to journeyman status. A flash in the pan.

Gerrie Coetzee: A South African never-was whose only victory of note during the period in question was a win over an out-of-shape Michael Dokes and had already lost to Weaver, Snipes, and Tate. Please.....doesn't even deserve to be labled a "contender".

Poet






You downgrading fighters who Larry Holmes ducked doesn't make him look any better.Holmes ducked them and there's no way of defending him on it.Don't tell me that Marvis frazier,Lucien Rodriguez,Randall Cobb,Scott Frank,Leroy Jones,Lorenzo Zannon,Alfredo Evangelista were better,because they weren't.




Page was Holmes mandatory and Holmes rejected $2.5 million in favour of ducking Page.for a man who claims that he was all about the money: that's a duck.



If Ali and Louis had taken the Larry Holmes route in taking the easiest options possible then nobody would have been calling them great.

Ziggy Stardust
08-14-2010, 02:21 PM
You downgrading fighters who Larry Holmes ducked doesn't make him look any better.Holmes ducked them and there's no way of defending him on it.Don't tell me that Marvis frazier,Lucien Rodriguez,Randall Cobb,Scott Frank,Leroy Jones,Lorenzo Zannon,Alfredo Evangelista were better,because they weren't.

Page was Holmes mandatory and Holmes rejected $2.5 million in favour of ducking Page.for a man who claims that he was all about the money: that's a duck.

If Ali and Louis had taken the Larry Holmes route in taking the easiest options possible then nobody would have been calling them great.

According to the rules of logic, gratuetous assertions such as you fill your posts with may be equally gratuetously denied. Just because YOU claim it doesn't make it fact.....in fact, the fact that it's YOU who's making the claims is sufficient evidence to safely declare those assertions as being bogus and without foundation. :bullsh1t9:

Poet

GJC
08-14-2010, 08:01 PM
Page was Holmes mandatory and Holmes rejected $2.5 million in favour of ducking Page.for a man who claims that he was all about the money: that's a duck.


As I recall Holmes rejected it to get away from King, no? That wouild have been all about the money. When Don King offers you $2.5 million you are lucky to end up with $50,000

-CANE-
08-15-2010, 09:15 AM
At the time I had him pegged as the guy who would take Tyson's "0".

Poet


I've said the same thing on many occasions on this site about Witherspoon. For me he was the one who could seriously given Tyson problems.

To this day I'll never be able to fathom why he threw that fight against bonehugger.

prinzemanspopa
08-15-2010, 09:57 AM
As I recall Holmes rejected it to get away from King, no? That wouild have been all about the money. When Don King offers you $2.5 million you are lucky to end up with $50,000



Not as far as I know,mate.He never said as much,only claiming that $2.5 million wasn't enough and that he wanted more.He also said he'd only fight Coetzee for a $100 million.Page had been the mandatory contender for some time before the wbc eventually did strip Holmes of the title.



You'll find with Poop that if he doesn't like a fighter, and I'm struggling to think of one he does like,




Regardless of the harsh criticism that I have reserved for certain fighters,I am a fan of the sport of boxing and therfore I do rate many fighters of the past and of today.

Ziggy Stardust
08-15-2010, 11:54 AM
Not as far as I know,mate.He never said as much,only claiming that $2.5 million wasn't enough and that he wanted more.He also said he'd only fight Coetzee for a $100 million.Page had been the mandatory contender for some time before the wbc eventually did strip Holmes of the title.

First off, you're nobody's mate.....except for maybe a blow-up doll or the odd sheep here and there.


Regardless of the harsh criticism that I have reserved for certain fighters,I am a fan of the sport of boxing and therfore I do rate many fighters of the past and of today.

Yeah, you rate class-c fighters like Mac Foster and Gerrie Coetzee :rofl9:

Poet

prinzemanspopa
08-15-2010, 12:41 PM
First off, you're nobody's mate.....except for maybe a blow-up doll or the odd sheep here and there.



There is such a thing as courtesy.Obviously such a term is lost to an American such as yourself.



Yeah, you rate class-c fighters like Mac Foster and Gerrie Coetzee :rofl9:

Poet




The former,who punched hard enough to rule out the possibility of ever landing a fight with the suspect chinned Joe Frazier.

The latter being perceived as a great enough threat for Larry Holmes to make ridiculous purse demands,thus ruling himself out of fight in which he would have made quite possibly the greatest purse of his entire career.



Popa

GJC
08-15-2010, 01:23 PM
Not as far as I know,mate.He never said as much,only claiming that $2.5 million wasn't enough and that he wanted more.He also said he'd only fight Coetzee for a $100 million.Page had been the mandatory contender for some time before the wbc eventually did strip Holmes of the title.


Think we are looking at around the time Holmes fought Marvis Frazier?
Did a bit of research and it looks as if he got $3.1 for Marvis as opposed to $2.5 for Page, so as you said Holmes was about the money.
After the Frazier fight Page lost to Witherspoon and Bey (who Holmes did fight) and after that his career was spotty to say the least and with Holmes winding down the time was never right again.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/07/03/sports/wbc-says-holmes-must-fight-greg-page.html

Below is a thread on another boxing site which is quite interesting:

http://www.********boxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212986

Here is a few quotes from the thread which I tend to lean towards although to be fair if you follow the thread there are others that lean towards your view. Depends as always on your opinion I guess

From 1983 forward, things got a bit dicey though... He was stripped of his WBC title for not meeting Greg Page... I don't know if this was all Larry's doing or if it had something to do with his parting ways with Don King that mucked up its making... I suspect that the real answer lies somewhere in between

I remember seeing this question years ago and it spiraled into an accusation of who ducked who when really it's a question of who had the money and time to meet Holmes. Also, King did have a lot to do with Holmes not getting the other title. He wanted to unify the titles only when "the perfect situation" would come along. He was looking for a unification fight that would also be a megafight. Proposed fights between Cooney to fight Weaver to then fight Holmes were hinted at, a unification with Coetzee almost happened, and Larry claims that he would have faced Page, Dokes, or Thomas if they had the ability to keep a title (in addititon to your standard boxing politics).

The second was that Holmes was so disturbed from being exploited by the corrupt alphabet soup politics and Don King that he said f-ck it, that he was fighting who he wanted to ... this took place after the Cooney fight when he was already pushing 33 so we are really talking two years out of a near seven year reign. And still he fought Bonecrusher, Bey, Witherspoon and Williams, all young, big strong fighters.


Regardless of the harsh criticism that I have reserved for certain fighters,I am a fan of the sport of boxing and therfore I do rate many fighters of the past and of today.

I don't doubt you are a fan of the sport Poop and I personally don't have any personal problem with you although I disagree with many of your opinions, you have always treated me with courtesy and I hope I to you.
I would like to see you praise some fighters though sometimes rather than keep criticising certain fighters. I can see you are a knowledgable person on boxing even if I don't agree with many of your opinions so it would be refreshing to see a little positivity from you rather than the constant negativity.

prinzemanspopa
08-15-2010, 02:39 PM
Think we are looking at around the time Holmes fought Marvis Frazier?
Did a bit of research and it looks as if he got $3.1 for Marvis as opposed to $2.5 for Page, so as you said Holmes was about the money.
After the Frazier fight Page lost to Witherspoon and Bey (who Holmes did fight) and after that his career was spotty to say the least and with Holmes winding down the time was never right again.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/07/03/sports/wbc-says-holmes-must-fight-greg-page.html




The sources that I've read had Holmes receiving just over the amount that King was offering him for the mandatory defense against Page,with Frazier receiving half of what your source reported:


http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=1u8aAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QUcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6948,5313180&dq=larry+holmes+punishes+marvis+frazier&hl=en



The time that should be looked at here is when Page won a title eliminator(May of 83) until when holmes was stripped of the title(December of 83).

Holmes fought twice in this time; both fights against unranked opposition.


I'd say Page was a more worthy contender than Scott frank,Marvis frazier and a past it,no longer relevent,John Tate(whom Holmes was scheduled to meet in April of 84),wouldn't you?

GJC
08-15-2010, 02:45 PM
The sources that I've read had Holmes receiving just over the amount that King was offering him for the mandatory defense against Page,with razier receiving half of what your source reported:


http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=1u8aAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QUcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6948,5313180&dq=larry+holmes+punishes+marvis+frazier&hl=en



The time that should be looked at here is when Page won a title eliminator(May of 83) until when holmes was stripped of the title(December of 83).

Holmes fought twice in this time; both fights against unranked opposition.


I'd say Page was a more worthy contender than Scott frank,Marvis frazier,and past it,no longer relevent,John Tate(whom Holmes was scheduled to meet in April of 84),wouldn't you?

I wouldn't argue that Page had more talent than Frank and Frazier but whether he was the best HW out there at that time isn't neccessarily the same as King getting Sulaiman to bump him to being the mandatory. You know as well as I do if me or you gave King 100% of the purse and a million under the table we would be the number one contender even now!
I don't like triangle theories but Page had lost comprehensively to Berbick who lost comprehensively to Holmes there was nothing there that would have frightenend Holmes imo