View Full Version : Marciano is not a top 10 ATG, not even top 50


Forza
08-07-2010, 01:08 PM
I hate to say this. I'm a big fan of marciano and I loved his fights. But let's be honest here, some people actually mention his name with ali, foreman, frazier etc it's not fair to them.

Marcianos best wins were against guys that were over 40 and way past their primes. He retired at 32 because he knew floyd patterson would flatten him.

Good jaw, amazing work ethic and a decent hitting right hand was about all he had to offer to the boxing world.

sonnyboyx2
08-07-2010, 01:14 PM
Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles (twice) Jersey Joe Walcott (twice) LaStarza (twice) Archie Moore, Harry Mathews, Lex Layne, Vingo & ****ell all beaten & battered by `The Rock`....

TheGreatA
08-07-2010, 01:15 PM
If you're going to make an argument against Marciano atleast state things that are true. Marciano beat every opponent who was put in front of him, including greats like Moore, Charles and Walcott, who were not way over 40 and still had fight left in them, even if not arguably at the peak of their boxing careers. And he most certainly did not retire due to Patterson.

Steak
08-07-2010, 01:25 PM
Charles, Walcott, Moore and Louis were all rated the #1 contenders when Marciano beat them. even his underrated wins like Rex Layne, ****ell and LaStarza were rated in the top 5 when he beat them.

the only guy that Marciano really 'missed out' on fighting was Nino Valdez, but Moore beat him at HW before Marciano fought him, so...

krazyn8tive
08-07-2010, 01:28 PM
I hate to say this. I'm a big fan of marciano and I loved his fights. But let's be honest here, some people actually mention his name with ali, foreman, frazier etc it's not fair to them.

Marcianos best wins were against guys that were over 40 and way past their primes. He retired at 32 because he knew floyd patterson would flatten him.

Good jaw, amazing work ethic and a decent hitting right hand was about all he had to offer to the boxing world.

:tool:
and the winner of this weeks most idiotic thread goes to...



YOU

Obama
08-07-2010, 02:00 PM
I hate to say this. I'm a big fan of marciano and I loved his fights. But let's be honest here, some people actually mention his name with ali, foreman, frazier etc it's not fair to them.


Title of the post was fine. Problem was you wrote in it and exposed your lack of boxing knowledge. Nothing wrong at all with rating him above Foreman or Frazier p4p. Nothing. at. all.

Forza
08-07-2010, 02:13 PM
You guys keep throwing out names, but theres more to a win than a name. He beat legends, but these legends were past their prime. His top 8 wins were against guys with the average of 40 years old, some a little younger some a little older.

GJC
08-07-2010, 08:15 PM
You guys keep throwing out names, but theres more to a win than a name. He beat legends, but these legends were past their prime. His top 8 wins were against guys with the average of 40 years old, some a little younger some a little older.

The oldest was 39 I believe so not sure how you do your averages?
Layne and La Starza were good fighters in their 20s, Charles was only a couple of years older than Marciano.
Not the greatest resume but he beat all in front of him and everyone who put themself in a position to challenge him.
Personally I have little doubt he would have taken care of Patterson so until Liston came along 5 or 6 years later there was no one on the horizon who could have beaten him.
Never lost, off his feet for a total of 5 seconds, for sure not the most cultured fighter to be HW champ but no one in history would have taken him lightly and would have known they were in a fight

SBleeder
08-07-2010, 09:39 PM
a decent hitting right hand

If by "decent" you mean one of the two or three most powerful right hands ever then I'll agree with you.

I agree he's not a top 10 p4p ATG but he's most certainly top 50. I have him at #17 on my all-time p4p top 100 list.

lazy
08-08-2010, 12:59 AM
Depends on whether you are rating him by skills, heart or his accomplishments!

frankenfrank
08-08-2010, 03:12 PM
If you're going to make an argument against Marciano atleast state things that are true. Marciano beat every opponent who was put in front of him, including greats like Moore, Charles and Walcott, who were not way over 40 and still had fight left in them, even if not arguably at the peak of their boxing careers. And he most certainly did not retire due to Patterson.
What a good example of double standards :
were not way over 40 and still had fight left in them
Weird you forgot Louis.
Weirder when you all claim Tyson , Terry Norris , Riddick Bowe , Muhammad Ali , Joe Frazier , Jerry Quarry , Gerry Cooney were all shot at 30-32 .
But Schmelling , Liston , and a few more of your favorite fighters' victims , they were far from shot and had plenty'O'Fight left in them by that age.

NChristo
08-08-2010, 03:24 PM
What a good example of double standards :
Weird you forgot Louis.
Weirder when you all claim Tyson , Terry Norris , Riddick Bowe , Muhammad Ali , Joe Frazier , Jerry Quarry , Gerry Cooney were all shot at 30-32 .
But Schmelling , Liston , and a few more of your favorite fighters' victims , they were far from shot and had plenty'O'Fight left in them by that age.

Are you trying to say that all boxers age the same ?...

frankenfrank
08-08-2010, 03:25 PM
If by "decent" you mean one of the two or three most powerful right hands ever then I'll agree with you.

WTF ?
Shavers , Foreman , Louis , Bowe , Lewis , Wladimir Klitschko : these are a 80% consensus more dangerous right hand.
Those who will disagree about Lewis , Klitschko and Bowe would still include
Baer and Schmelling above Marciano.
McCall and Rahman also had a better right hand even if not consensus , and
I promise you there are at least 10 more in addition to all of these names.

So how did you get to only "one of the two or three most powerful right hands ever" ?

But this is a history forum , idiotic claims like this can check undetected , as long as they are claimed about a deceased (for more than 20 years) fighter.

Then they really enter a special section of the HOF.

No one would have argued about such claims in such a forum.
As idiotic as it comes.
At least no one who knows about boxing.

I agree he's not a top 10 p4p ATG but he's most certainly top 50. I have him at #17 on my all-time p4p top 100 list.
And to the topic : he is a top 50 all time P4P , top 5 LHW , top 15 CW ,
top 70 HW.

frankenfrank
08-08-2010, 03:26 PM
Are you trying to say that all boxers age the same ?...
No , but more same than what you think.

Forza
08-09-2010, 12:54 PM
A wins a win, but come on. I could beat up ali right now but that doesn't mean **** because hes an old man with a disease.

Ziggy Stardust
08-10-2010, 12:58 AM
No , but more same than what you think.

In perusing the posts from this thread I'm left with one question: Is it even REMOTELY possible for you to make a post that ISN'T retarded? :rolleyes9:

Poet

Spartacus Sully
08-10-2010, 01:14 AM
WTF ?
Shavers , Foreman , Louis , Bowe , Lewis , Wladimir Klitschko : these are a 80% consensus more dangerous right hand.
Those who will disagree about Lewis , Klitschko and Bowe would still include
Baer and Schmelling above Marciano.
McCall and Rahman also had a better right hand even if not consensus , and
I promise you there are at least 10 more in addition to all of these names.

So how did you get to only "one of the two or three most powerful right hands ever" ?


marcianos right swing at only 190 some pounds was much more powerful than anything any of them ever threw. he might not have had the best right straight but very few people even throw right swings let alone a right swing like his. making it maybe not the most versatile but definitely one of the top most powerful right hands.

frankenfrank
08-10-2010, 03:15 AM
marcianos right swing at only 190 some pounds was much more powerful than anything any of them ever threw. he might not have had the best right straight but very few people even throw right swings let alone a right swing like his. making it maybe not the most versatile but definitely one of the top most powerful right hands.

Might be so on a P4P basis , but I thought the argument about it is on a (HW) H2H basis.

Spartacus Sully
08-10-2010, 04:54 AM
Might be so on a P4P basis , but I thought the argument about it is on a (HW) H2H basis.

well yeah, my argument is based on the mechanics of different punches.

with a swing there is more distance to travel allowing for more time to accelerate to a higher top speed assuming foreman and Marciano both accelerated at the same rate (which they didnt) and we assume the swing takes 25% (like .07 seconds) longer to swing then a tight right hook putting an average right hook at 20 mph we can assume a right swing would be around 25 mph.

as kinetic energy or the energy of motion is joules = 1/2m*v^2 even a 50 lb diffrence wouldnt make up for a 5 mph diffrence in speed.

even more so though i dont think the diffrence is only 5 mph's marciano really put his arm out there and brought it in in the last moment collapsing the arc and getting some insane speed almost like the tip of a whip exploding with his full body weight.

frankenfrank
08-10-2010, 05:52 AM
well yeah, my argument is based on the mechanics of different punches.

with a swing there is more distance to travel allowing for more time to accelerate to a higher top speed assuming foreman and Marciano both accelerated at the same rate (which they didnt) and we assume the swing takes 25% (like .07 seconds) longer to swing then a tight right hook putting an average right hook at 20 mph we can assume a right swing would be around 25 mph.

as kinetic energy or the energy of motion is joules = 1/2m*v^2 even a 50 lb diffrence wouldnt make up for a 5 mph diffrence in speed.

even more so though i dont think the diffrence is only 5 mph's marciano really put his arm out there and brought it in in the last moment collapsing the arc and getting some insane speed almost like the tip of a whip exploding with his full body weight.
But there is another factor to it , the push behind the punch , after the punch has landed and what you said is done there is an additional push behind the punch which is what is called the commitment to it , and this is what explains some of Foreman's punches success , whenever he committed to his punches , he could push harder than Marciano because he was so much bigger , more mass and power behind his punches + sometimes he could punch down which is harder in general than punching up as gravity is a factor too.

Spartacus Sully
08-10-2010, 06:07 AM
But there is another factor to it , the push behind the punch , after the punch has landed and what you said is done there is an additional push behind the punch which is what is called the commitment to it , and this is what explains some of Foreman's punches success , whenever he committed to his punches , he could push harder than Marciano because he was so much bigger , more mass and power behind his punches + sometimes he could punch down which is harder in general than punching up as gravity is a factor too.

well there is the other factor, the push, the slower you are and the more mass you have the less you hit some one and the more you just push them around.

just as with the innital impact theres the elasticity of the impact factoring into just how much force is conveyed into the impact coming from the kinetic energy.

now to this there are a million and a half different factors mainly around the movement of the head and its resistance to move. if the head were say a 20 lb ball hanging from the ceiling the faster punch is able to convey more of the kenitic energy to the ball before the ball flys away. as well when dealing with an actual human when the faster hit hits in the head the energy is more concentrated in the head where as with the hit then push the initial shot is concentrated to the head but alot of the follow through energy is transfered to the body and not the actual rattling of the brain which causes a KO.

and punching up or down dosnt matter its alittle more difficult to punch up due to gravity but its only difficult on your stamina, not to restrict how hard on can punch. when the rock punched upwards he was pretty much jumping in the air with his whole body weight and the force of his legs behind his punches.

on top of that when your punching downwards you have the acceleration of gravity helping you, but thats only 9.8 meters per second which after a second would be about 20 mph. I dont know any one that takes a whole second to punch, that little 9.8 meters persecond is nothing compared to the acceleration from your feet.

BattlingNelson
08-10-2010, 06:07 AM
I hate to say this. I'm a big fan of marciano and I loved his fights. But let's be honest here, some people actually mention his name with ali, foreman, frazier etc it's not fair to them.

Marcianos best wins were against guys that were over 40 and way past their primes. He retired at 32 because he knew floyd patterson would flatten him.

Good jaw, amazing work ethic and a decent hitting right hand was about all he had to offer to the boxing world.
I thought this could be a good thread, but when I saw that you don't present any arguments for your claim I realized that the thread is not worthwhile. The way you could make it interesting is to present the 50 fighters who in your opinion is above Marciano.

Untill you do that this thread is worthless I'm sorry to say.

frankenfrank
08-10-2010, 06:55 AM
well there is the other factor, the push, the slower you are and the more mass you have the less you hit some one and the more you just push them around.

just as with the innital impact theres the elasticity of the impact factoring into just how much force is conveyed into the impact coming from the kinetic energy.

now to this there are a million and a half different factors mainly around the movement of the head and its resistance to move. if the head were say a 20 lb ball hanging from the ceiling the faster punch is able to convey more of the kenitic energy to the ball before the ball flys away. as well when dealing with an actual human when the faster hit hits in the head the energy is more concentrated in the head where as with the hit then push the initial shot is concentrated to the head but alot of the follow through energy is transfered to the body and not the actual rattling of the brain which causes a KO.

and punching up or down dosnt matter its alittle more difficult to punch up due to gravity but its only difficult on your stamina, not to restrict how hard on can punch. when the rock punched upwards he was pretty much jumping in the air with his whole body weight and the force of his legs behind his punches.

on top of that when your punching downwards you have the acceleration of gravity helping you, but thats only 9.8 meters per second which after a second would be about 20 mph. I dont know any one that takes a whole second to punch, that little 9.8 meters persecond is nothing compared to the acceleration from your feet.
I would not have omitted the factor of gravity but your last 2 posts are good and articulate and now even quite exact , but do you suggest that Marciano could have rattled Lyle the way Foreman did ? even Shavers did not KO Lyle despite landing hard on him but Foreman did .
So yes , Lyle was lucky to have the round ended before Shavers could have finished him , but fact he recuperated enough to manage a KO of his own.
Foreman KOd Lyle despite Lyle flooring him twice before , so how do you explain it ? it was not as if Lyle was such a chinny fighter , do you suggest Marciano could have KOd him if he landed ? Shavers landed and he got up , Foreman landed and he didn't. Could Marciano floor him for the count if he managed to land flush ?

Spartacus Sully
08-10-2010, 07:40 AM
I would not have omitted the factor of gravity but your last 2 posts are good and articulate and now even quite exact , but do you suggest that Marciano could have rattled Lyle the way Foreman did ? even Shavers did not KO Lyle despite landing hard on him but Foreman did .
So yes , Lyle was lucky to have the round ended before Shavers could have finished him , but fact he recuperated enough to manage a KO of his own.
Foreman KOd Lyle despite Lyle flooring him twice before , so how do you explain it ? it was not as if Lyle was such a chinny fighter , do you suggest Marciano could have KOd him if he landed ? Shavers landed and he got up , Foreman landed and he didn't. Could Marciano floor him for the count if he managed to land flush ?

lyle probly wouldnt have even been alive if marciano was able to get off as many clean shots as forman did prior to lyle going down. if it were marciano lyle would have swaggered and fallen to the ground not to the ropes only to last another 10 seconds of formans pushing and still not having been knocked unconcious but really only having given up, well not given up till the ten count but given up in that he was still lieing on the canvas even while people were going to help him up, not like he was lieing there because he couldnt get up.

frankenfrank
08-10-2010, 07:57 AM
lyle probly wouldnt have even been alive if marciano was able to get off as many clean shots as forman did prior to lyle going down. if it were marciano lyle would have swaggered and fallen to the ground not to the ropes only to last another 10 seconds of formans pushing and still not having been knocked unconcious but really only having given up, well not given up till the ten count but given up in that he was still lieing on the canvas even while people were going to help him up, not like he was lieing there because he couldnt get up.

So Louis , Walcott , Charles and Moore were all superbly sturdier chinned and necked than Lyle that they stayed alive after Marciano's lands on them ?
And you claim Marciano hit harder than Shavers ?

Spartacus Sully
08-10-2010, 08:08 AM
So Louis , Walcott , Charles and Moore were all superbly sturdier chinned and necked than Lyle that they stayed alive after Marciano's lands on them ?
And you claim Marciano hit harder than Shavers ?

im saying the 100 clean hits from george in the 40 seconds prior to lyle going down wouldn't even be equal to 50 clean hits from Marciano.

and yeah i have faith in my claim that marciano had one of the hardest hitting right hands. shavers hit **** loads harder then foreman just from first glance off box rec but ill stay with rocky hitting harder still. though i should probly watch some of shavers if i actually want to argue it any fruther.

after watching some shavers mainly the lyle fight and some compilations id still put the rocks swing up there past shavers hooks.

frankenfrank
08-10-2010, 04:12 PM
im saying the 100 clean hits from george in the 40 seconds prior to lyle going down wouldn't even be equal to 50 clean hits from Marciano.

and yeah i have faith in my claim that marciano had one of the hardest hitting right hands. shavers hit **** loads harder then foreman just from first glance off box rec but ill stay with rocky hitting harder still. though i should probly watch some of shavers if i actually want to argue it any fruther.

after watching some shavers mainly the lyle fight and some compilations id still put the rocks swing up there past shavers hooks.

Shavers' hooks ? These probably were compilations from the Norton fight .
In Shavers' case no need for compilations as his entire fights rarely lasted enough to bore .
Watch the Ellis , Norton , Lyle , Bugner , Quarry and Stander fights and you won't get bored. Tell me if u find one or better both of his fights against Jimmy Young.
Shavers was primarily a straight puncher .
He was renowned for his straight punch.

Calilloyd
08-10-2010, 08:47 PM
im saying the 100 clean hits from george in the 40 seconds prior to lyle going down wouldn't even be equal to 50 clean hits from Marciano.

and yeah i have faith in my claim that marciano had one of the hardest hitting right hands. shavers hit **** loads harder then foreman just from first glance off box rec but ill stay with rocky hitting harder still. though i should probly watch some of shavers if i actually want to argue it any fruther.

after watching some shavers mainly the lyle fight and some compilations id still put the rocks swing up there past shavers hooks.








That says it all.

Spartacus Sully
08-11-2010, 12:04 AM
Shavers' hooks ? These probably were compilations from the Norton fight .
In Shavers' case no need for compilations as his entire fights rarely lasted enough to bore .
Watch the Ellis , Norton , Lyle , Bugner , Quarry and Stander fights and you won't get bored. Tell me if u find one or better both of his fights against Jimmy Young.
Shavers was primarily a straight puncher .
He was renowned for his straight punch.

yeah shavers hooks, he was quite good at the left and right off the bob, almost better then fraizer in that he kept his hands up though fraizer was the better bobber.

as punching is punching things share similarities, in that shavers punches were very tight through out with out the start of the swing starting wide and coming in tight you cant get the same top speed.

leaving marcianos right swing a harder punch still.

though shaver's straights were also much better then formans in that he was more about speed then mass behind his punches with big slow punches that hit and push. theres barely any pushing factor its just speed cutting through what hes punching with his body weight dragging behind to follow through anything that might stop his fist. he clearly had better straights and a jab then marciano and a faster over all, not top speed, hook.

im not saying Marciano was a better boxer or puncher just that his right swing could very well be the most devastating single blow ever thrown in boxing.

That says it all.

Holy **** records dont mean **** any more...i didnt know that, thanks for letting me know.

I knew one day that the professionally compiled list's of every one different boxers fought in their professional career and how the fights ended would be completely worthless for any information what so ever...soooo i guess that day was yesterday? thanks for letting me know.

McGoorty
09-05-2011, 12:45 PM
I hate to say this. I'm a big fan of marciano and I loved his fights. But let's be honest here, some people actually mention his name with ali, foreman, frazier etc it's not fair to them.

Marcianos best wins were against guys that were over 40 and way past their primes. He retired at 32 because he knew floyd patterson would flatten him.

Good jaw, amazing work ethic and a decent hitting right hand was about all he had to offer to the boxing world.
Marciano is without doubt an ATG top 10 HW,...... He actually fought many great fighters and I don't think you are being FAIR TO HIM,...

Marchegiano
09-05-2011, 06:14 PM
This argument is tired. The OP is tired, and the responses are tired. I've talked physics, even though I've a degree, I'm told I don't know. I've talked records, and been ignored. I've spoken of displayed skill sets, and ran into clever dodge work. Lets face facts. No one will ever look up a god damn thing, and respond with a new point of view. I happen to know that Rocky put out more power than any human skull can possibly take. You don't even have the potential to build a skull rigid enough. Will you look it up? **** no. I'm ****ing full of figures and general knowledge on Rocco's damage, but y'all people would much rather tell me you know better, and i'm absurd, troll, what have you. than google a god damned thing...with that said. OP's a ****ing idiot. Those who agree are idiots. If you can't watch Marciano fight. Sit through a KO reel, and see his power, or the physics behind it, your ****ing stupid. Of course most of you who agree with the OP will simply notice the misspelled and lack of grammar. Guess what ass hole...science doesn't need that ****. Maybe you'd have a hard time speaking math with me? I guess in general I'm sick and tired of people who in my lab would act at my mercy. A bit hesitant to touch my ****, and a bit anxious to leave, and lot respectful of my knowledge. Once your actually in danger your whole tone changes...then I know my **** eh? **** off with this Rocky's not an ATG bull****....

DarkTerror88
09-05-2011, 07:57 PM
Marcinao is top 10 ATG. I would put up points, but if the Op didnt, hell, why should i?

where is JAB when you need him?

Vadrigar.
09-06-2011, 08:35 AM
I have Marciano rated #10 all time. But OP is worthless because no arguments are presented to justify the bold cliam you made in the thread title. It's like the nonsense you posted in Steak's thread.

fitefanSHO
09-06-2011, 09:19 AM
I was told that the Boxing History section of this forum would expose me to better threads and smarter people than what I was seeing in the NSB section, and for the most part that's true, but then I run into something like this which makes me wonder.

49-0

barfly12
09-06-2011, 09:37 AM
Joe Louis said Marciano had the hardest left hook he ever got hit with -- and Marciano hit much harder with his right! Also forgotten here is that unlike hitters like Shavers and early Foreman, Marciano carried his power throughout the entire 15 rounds. Few hitters can say that. No one who ever actually fought the guy said he was not great. No one.

Barn
09-06-2011, 10:48 AM
I have Marciano a Top 10 ATG at HW although I do agree he doesn't make Top 50 on a P4P list an argument could be made because of the weight deficits he faced.

McGoorty
09-06-2011, 12:28 PM
This argument is tired. The OP is tired, and the responses are tired. I've talked physics, even though I've a degree, I'm told I don't know. I've talked records, and been ignored. I've spoken of displayed skill sets, and ran into clever dodge work. Lets face facts. No one will ever look up a god damn thing, and respond with a new point of view. I happen to know that Rocky put out more power than any human skull can possibly take. You don't even have the potential to build a skull rigid enough. Will you look it up? **** no. I'm ****ing full of figures and general knowledge on Rocco's damage, but y'all people would much rather tell me you know better, and i'm absurd, troll, what have you. than google a god damned thing...with that said. OP's a ****ing idiot. Those who agree are idiots. If you can't watch Marciano fight. Sit through a KO reel, and see his power, or the physics behind it, your ****ing stupid. Of course most of you who agree with the OP will simply notice the misspelled and lack of grammar. Guess what ass hole...science doesn't need that ****. Maybe you'd have a hard time speaking math with me? I guess in general I'm sick and tired of people who in my lab would act at my mercy. A bit hesitant to touch my ****, and a bit anxious to leave, and lot respectful of my knowledge. Once your actually in danger your whole tone changes...then I know my **** eh? **** off with this Rocky's not an ATG bull****....
You are not alone in admiration for Marciano...... I believe that rocky and Jim Jeffries are far and away the hardest punching pound for pound HW's of all-time,.... and the very last two HW's that any man would want to meet in the ring. Marciano was a monster,.... short with short reach, but a monster. His body-shots are to be adored, it is his constant destruction of the body that brings the hands down.... any HW in history goes to sleep if he's caught on the chin...... every last dang one of them..... Rocky was so fit, that no HW has ever even approached his level of fitness,,.. Rocky was a cardio-machine,.. he ate up 15 rounds and could always have gone 20..... He never gives an opponent time to think, he is coming at full-speed for the entire time..... He has the all-time GOAT HW Chin . I rank Rocky Marciano in the top 5 HW's of all-time...... I know most here don't agree with me but I have stated Rocky's case. As for his level of opposition, I say that his level of competition was certainly higher than todays and I think they were better than the thirties,.... Marciano would have walked through Schmeling, Baer, Carnera, Sharkey & Tunney..... he would have been unstoppable, apart from the Brown Bomber at least. Joe Louis probably wins 2 and loses 1 and has a draw with Rocky, but maybe Rocky lands twice, giving him 2 to 1 victories........ I have stated my case,... from now on I direct everybody to this post whenever Marciano slander occurs. ROCKY,.. ALL-TIME-GREAT.

fitefanSHO
09-06-2011, 12:33 PM
Marciano would have walked through Carnera

It did take him 13 rounds on Title Bout, just saying. :nana:

McGoorty
09-06-2011, 01:36 PM
It did take him 13 rounds on Title Bout, just saying. :nana:
Yeah,.. and Title Bout showed that Hagler could Kill a Giant-Killer,..... therefore, Hagler beats any Heavyweight ..... well, I'm just sayin'.

JAB5239
09-06-2011, 05:45 PM
It did take him 13 rounds on Title Bout, just saying. :nana:

I think thats accurate. If nothing else, Carnera could take a beating.

ghns1133
09-06-2011, 05:52 PM
marciano is definatly ATG

its sould be were on the list do u see him

barfly12
09-07-2011, 07:56 AM
Someone brought up Ron Lyle. Lyle was a fine fighter, I saw him fight and I saw him train. I also saw him fight Bonavena. Oscar is the closest thing ever to Marciano, he was just stupid, lazy, and a party animal. But he was tough, strong, and VERY mean. He fought Lyle in Lyle's hometown of Denver. I saw the fight live. I called it a draw. So did most ringsiders. The hometown judges gave it to Lyle. If Lyle was hard pressed to beat Bonavena, he never could have beaten Rocky. As far as Louis goes, his reputation on the way up was built on washed up old men: Carnera, Sharkey, Schmelling, were all old men. Baer was only 26 but he froze in the dressing room. Dempsey had to drag him out. No one criticizes Joe for fighting has beens but when Rocky did it, he was a phoney. Why? Louis fought Walcott and got his ass kicked in the first fight, a true gift decision. Walcott florred him twice and clearly outboxed and confused him. Yet when Rocky had a hard time with Walcott, whom he eventually kayoed, he is called a bum. Why?