View Full Version : The best defensive fighters carry their hands low?


Toney616
08-01-2010, 09:04 AM
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, a lot of the top defensive minded fighters either carry their hands low or hold only one of their hands high.

Fighters like:
Walcott
Moore
Hopkins
Toney
Mayweather
Qawi
McCallum
Duran
Frazier

Do people here think that fighters who rely mainly on rolling and slipping punches are more effective defensively than fighters who rely primarily on blocking techniques?

GJC
08-01-2010, 09:25 AM
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, a lot of the top defensive minded fighters either carry their hands low or hold only one of their hands high.

Fighters like:
Walcott
Moore
Hopkins
Toney
Mayweather
Qawi
McCallum
Duran
Frazier

Do people here think that fighters who rely mainly on rolling and slipping punches are more effective defensively than fighters who rely primarily on blocking techniques?

To paraphrase you I would say fighters who rely mainly on rolling and slipping punches are more effective offensively than fighters who rely primarily on blocking techniques

Toney616
08-01-2010, 09:34 AM
To paraphrase you I would say fighters who rely mainly on rolling and slipping punches are more effective offensively than fighters who rely primarily on blocking techniques
Thats a good point as well, but in terms of defense what do you think?

Ziggy Stardust
08-01-2010, 09:48 AM
Thats a good point as well, but in terms of defense what do you think?

Whatever works best for that particular fighter. The bottom line is how effective they were at the end of the day not necessarily how they achieved it.

Also, those old fighters like Walcott carried low on purpose to sucker their opponents in for a counter.

Poet

Toney616
08-01-2010, 10:09 AM
Whatever works best for that particular fighter. The bottom line is how effective they were at the end of the day not necessarily how they achieved it.
It's a point that I find just as interseting

Also, those old fighters like Walcott carried low on purpose to sucker their opponents in for a counter.

Poet
Didnt know that, learn something new everyday

IdNod4u2
08-01-2010, 10:17 AM
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, a lot of the top defensive minded fighters either carry their hands low or hold only one of their hands high.

Fighters like:
Walcott
Moore
Hopkins
Toney
Mayweather
Qawi
McCallum
Duran
Frazier

Do people here think that fighters who rely mainly on rolling and slipping punches are more effective defensively than fighters who rely primarily on blocking techniques?

Most defensive fighters don't want the physical aspect or the "inside game" of boxing. While blocking is a effective it keeps you inside while rolling and slipping keeps you at a distance (most of the time).
I believe it is best to have both in your arsenal but blocking is less effective because your inside and more vulnerable to being open, not to mention sometimes your strong opponents can punch through your guard.

Toney616
08-01-2010, 10:30 AM
Most defensive fighters don't want the physical aspect or the "inside game" of boxing. While blocking is a effective it keeps you inside while rolling and slipping keeps you at a distance (most of the time).
which fighters do you have in mind?

I believe it is best to have both in your arsenal but blocking is less effective because your inside and more vulnerable to being open, not to mention sometimes your strong opponents can punch through your guard.
What do you think of the turtle shell defense?

Ziggy Stardust
08-01-2010, 10:42 AM
Parrying punches is rather a lost art these days. Larry Holmes was a master at it.

Poet

NChristo
08-01-2010, 10:47 AM
Parrying punches is rather a lost art these days. Larry Holmes was a master at it.

Poet

Been watching fights of Vicente Sadlivar recently and I've gotta say he was easily the best person I've ever seen at parrying.
He was amazing, seems to be a lost name now though.

Toney616
08-01-2010, 10:48 AM
Parrying punches is rather a lost art these days. Larry Holmes was a master at it.

Poet
I have seen Toney do it (Toney-Barkley) and McCallum (during McCallum-Watson), but you are right it is one of the lost arts of boxing

Not really familiar with Holmes career (or his skill set) only seen: Smith I, Witherspoon, Spinks I and Spinks II

Ziggy Stardust
08-01-2010, 10:49 AM
Been watching fights of Vicente Sadlivar recently and I've gotta say he was easily the best person I've ever seen at parrying.
He was amazing, seems to be a lost name now though.

Hell, even I'm only vaguely familar with him. I need to look him up.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
08-01-2010, 10:52 AM
I have seen Toney do it (Toney-Barkley) and McCallum (during McCallum-Watson), but you are right it is one of the lost arts of boxing

Not really familiar with Holmes career (or his skill set) only seen: Smith I, Witherspoon, Spinks I and Spinks II

Watch Shavers I for a Holmes jabbing lesson. Shavers II is one of the most entertaining Heavyweight fights ever. Other good Holmes fights to watch: Norton, Cooney, Weaver I, Ocasio, and for an old Holmes the Mercer fight.

Poet

Toney616
08-01-2010, 10:57 AM
Watch Shavers I for a Holmes jabbing lesson. Shavers II is one of the most entertaining Heavyweight fights ever. Other good Holmes fights to watch: Norton, Cooney, Weaver I, Ocasio, and for an old Holmes the Mercer fight.

Poet
Thanks for this, off to download Holmes Shavers II now

NChristo
08-01-2010, 10:58 AM
Hell, even I'm only vaguely familar with him. I need to look him up.

Poet

Skill wise he's a top 3 southpaw with Hagler, Pea and Elorde coming 4th, imo anyway.

Ziggy Stardust
08-01-2010, 11:02 AM
Thanks for this, off to download Holmes Shavers II now

Tell you what, I'm going to PM you my catalogue of fights that I have.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
08-01-2010, 11:03 AM
Skill wise he's a top 3 southpaw with Hagler, Pea and Elorde coming 4th, imo anyway.

Clearly someone I need to do a bit of research on :)

Poet

Tiozzo
08-01-2010, 11:14 AM
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, a lot of the top defensive minded fighters either carry their hands low or hold only one of their hands high.

Fighters like:
Walcott
Moore
Hopkins
Toney
Mayweather
Qawi
McCallum
Duran
Frazier

Do people here think that fighters who rely mainly on rolling and slipping punches are more effective defensively than fighters who rely primarily on blocking techniques?

you forgot quite a few names in you list of defensive masters

I would say it is better to roll and slip because taking no punches at all on the arms is better than taking a whole lot on the gloves and arms to block

as someone else stated, a punch can always get through a tight blocking defense

if you roll and slip the right way, nothing will touch you/touch you solidly

Toney616
08-01-2010, 11:22 AM
you forgot quite a few names in you list of defensive masters
They are the guys im most familiar with

I would say it is better to roll and slip because taking no punches at all on the arms is better than taking a whole lot on the gloves and arms to block

as someone else stated, a punch can always get through a tight blocking defense

if you roll and slip the right way, nothing will touch you/touch you solidly
Thanks for this, great points

IdNod4u2
08-01-2010, 11:43 AM
which fighters do you have in mind?
P. Whitaker was one, Floyd is another.
What do you think of the turtle shell defense?
Boring IMO. But from a tactical aspect I think its OK at best. Winky and Clottey are two examples but honestly I dont believe it will get you to "greatness".

Toney616
08-01-2010, 11:48 AM
Boring IMO.
I think Clottey is okk to watch its his mentality thats lets him down. I do find winky and abraham boring to watch though

But from a tactical aspect I think its OK at best. Winky and Clottey are two examples but honestly I dont believe it will get you to "greatness".
I agree, it does have its limitations- I still havent watched Winky-Pwill yet. Im told winky just got overwhelmed and couldnt find the time to shoot counters

GJC
08-01-2010, 11:49 AM
Been watching fights of Vicente Sadlivar recently and I've gotta say he was easily the best person I've ever seen at parrying.
He was amazing, seems to be a lost name now though.
Strangely I mentioned him in another thread only a day or so ago.
He was the obstacle that our Howard Winstone couldn't overcome, a forgotten classic trilogy those 2 had

GJC
08-01-2010, 11:50 AM
Clearly someone I need to do a bit of research on :)

Poet

You should "get" Willie Pep first before you start moving onto Saldivar ;)

IdNod4u2
08-01-2010, 11:54 AM
I think Clottey is okk to watch its his mentality thats lets him down. I do find winky and abraham boring to watch though

I agree, it does have its limitations- I still havent watched Winky-Pwill yet. Im told winky just got overwhelmed and couldnt find the time to shoot counters
Whoever told you was right on. Pwill threw punches like crazy. The thing about the Shell is that in turtles the shell is there and its hands are still free. But in boxing if you shell up you have no offense. Pwill punches through alot of Winkys shell too.

NChristo
08-01-2010, 12:43 PM
Strangely I mentioned him in another thread only a day or so ago.
He was the obstacle that our Howard Winstone couldn't overcome, a forgotten classic trilogy those 2 had

Yeah they're some great fights.

OT: You're from Wales ?, did you go to the convention ?, was thinking about going but things came up and I wasn't able too.:puppy_dog

louis54
08-01-2010, 11:25 PM
its easier to move your head and legs when the left hand is down abit. try it as opposed to both hands chin high.

them_apples
08-02-2010, 12:24 AM
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, a lot of the top defensive minded fighters either carry their hands low or hold only one of their hands high.

Fighters like:
Walcott
Moore
Hopkins
Toney
Mayweather
Qawi
McCallum
Duran
Frazier

Do people here think that fighters who rely mainly on rolling and slipping punches are more effective defensively than fighters who rely primarily on blocking techniques?

I think it's more so that those guys are counter punchers. They drop their hands to get their oponent to throw..so they can make them miss and capitalize.

Hands up and a tight guard is almost always better.

Hardly any boxers keep both hands up high. Theres more to it than that. You need to be able to see the punches coming and be conscious of your body as well. Most fighter have them at that level and bring them up when they see a punch coming. You can obstruct your vision by bocking your own eyesite.

I know Tyson kept his hands up by his chin at all times, Joshua Clottey has a pretty high guard and even Marvin Hagler had a pretty tight guard as well.

The most defensive fighters though are the ones with good eyes. That see the punches coming. They are almost always counter punchers too though.

Eric Holder
08-02-2010, 09:43 AM
Charley Burley's another great defensive fighter that had a rather low guard, I think most of the slick boxers perfer this style because rolling/slipping slightly allows them to effectively avoid getting hit while still being in position to counter whereas a high turtle shell type guard makes it difficult to transition from defense to offense.

Been watching fights of Vicente Sadlivar recently and I've gotta say he was easily the best person I've ever seen at parrying.
He was amazing, seems to be a lost name now though.

I've only seen a couple of his fights, but from what I've seen I agree watching him parry punches is pretty amazing

SBleeder
08-04-2010, 07:49 AM
Don't know if he's been mentioned yet, but Benitez carried his hands at least as high as his chest and sometimes in front of his face.

GJC
08-04-2010, 04:35 PM
Yeah they're some great fights.

OT: You're from Wales ?, did you go to the convention ?, was thinking about going but things came up and I wasn't able too.:puppy_dog
No I'm a Londoner but you know the score when Scots Irish or Welsh win we call them British when they lose...... :)

BigStereotype
08-04-2010, 04:52 PM
Tell you what, I'm going to PM you my catalogue of fights that I have.

Poet

You think you could forward me that message?

I think Clottey is okk to watch its his mentality thats lets him down.

I really like Clottey just because he's very fundamentally sound, but I agree with you about his mentality. It might not even be that he's not a lion, I think he has some misconceptions about how rounds are scored. I know it's clean, effective punching, ring generalship and defense, but nobody actually scores defense. He doesn't seem to understand that.

Spartacus Sully
08-05-2010, 02:24 AM
When your bobbing and slipping and weaving its really hard to kep your hands up and with your hands lower you can bob and weaver alot faster with the lower center of gravity.

id say alot of its just bad training and the increased upper body movement speed it allows.

though the old old old fighters (like corbett and fitzsimmons) that would keep their hands low would mainly use it to trick some one into a counter or get your opponent to lower their hands to block a body shot while you throw a very time consuming right swing to their jaw.

Steak
08-05-2010, 12:01 PM
it has nothing to do with "Which is the better defensive technique", its just appropriate for the situation. Every one of those defensive masters you named have used BOTH techniques with multiple variations throughout their fights. people generally just remember ducking and slipping more.

and the reason a lot of defensive masters prefer to carry their hands low is this: body punching. your head can still move out of the way of punches, but if your body is not covered, you cant do anything.
although there are other reasons as well: making a guy miss tires him out more than blocking his punch, a blocked punch often can still hurt through the guard, better countering opportunites,etc.

a regular guard is more reliable(even the guys with the best head movement have gotten clocked bad while moving their head before), but ducking and slipping is a more risk-reward payoff.

The best defensive masters used both at the same time.

mrboxer
08-05-2010, 12:14 PM
i think the best defensive technique is a good counter puncher,mind yo uthe slip and roll,and the block can be effective as well i would choose the counter punching style:boxing::arabia: