View Full Version : (Poll) Is Joe Fraizer Overrated?


Southpaw Great
07-29-2010, 11:59 AM
.....................

T.Horton
07-29-2010, 12:04 PM
based on what? i think he's about 8 to 12 all-time. so no,i can't say he is.

Stone Roses!
07-29-2010, 12:04 PM
His chin is certainly overrated.

Boxin'
07-29-2010, 12:12 PM
If Frazier is overrated, so is Ali.

Frazier whooped his ass remember? :D

Sam Donald
07-29-2010, 12:13 PM
No. Not at all

The_Demon
07-29-2010, 12:26 PM
No he was one hell of a fighter and is an ATG

Vadrigar.
07-29-2010, 12:29 PM
Can't believe you're asking this. Not at all.

Southpaw Great
07-29-2010, 12:31 PM
Can't believe you're asking this. Not at all.

I've read alot on here that people that think he is........

Vadrigar.
07-29-2010, 12:35 PM
I've read alot on here that people that think he is........

Then stop listening to haters and trolls. :)

CarlosG815
07-29-2010, 12:47 PM
Then stop listening to haters and trolls. :)

There are only a few on here that downtalk the Great Joe Frazier and they're the least reputable people on this board.

TheMagicMan
07-29-2010, 12:50 PM
Depends on where you are rating him. If its wehre I rate him, as the number 67th best HW of all time. Then no. If its where some clowns rate him, who think the no chinned, runner could stand toe to toe with a machine like VItali Klitschko...then yes he is vastly overrated.

If you have Frazier ahead of
Vitali
Wlad
Bowe
Holy
Lewis
Tyson
Holmes

Then yes he is vastly overrated.

r.burgundy
07-29-2010, 01:19 PM
depends on his rating.i call him overated because he has 1 great win.and a bunch of solid wins.out of his fights with the other 2 great heavys of his day he went 1-5.thats far from greatness.there are alot of guys with 1 great win and a bunch of solid wins.

prinzemanspopa
07-29-2010, 01:19 PM
Easily the most overrated fighter of the last fifty years.A cherry picker,a leech, and a complete and utter fraud compared to the legitimate all time greats.



Frazier's entire claim to fame is based on a trilogy with a past it,immitator of a man who was once champion before being stripped of his prime.The same trilogy in which Frazier was beaten twice decisively,the last being in which a fat,bloated old joker sunk down to Frazier's level,fought his fight,and still beat him into submission.




You take a look of Frazier's resume outside of that trilogy and it's like comparing a piss puddle with a lake when compared to the resume and accomplishments of the true all time greats of this sport.



He shamelessly ducked virtually every single puncher of his generation,an era crowded with ranked puncher, to fight light punching fighters who he knew he could atleast have been competitive with.



He stepped into the ring,heavily favoured,just once against a puncher and was then dropped an amazing SIX times in just Two rounds.Glancing shots that had Frazier literally turning his back and running away in fear (see sig pic for more details).



Frazier sat back on his fat lazy arse while real fighters cleared out the division.He was just there to capitalize on their hard work in the end.


Unfortunately for a true warrior in Jerry Quarry,Frazier was able to leech off of his success and managed to deeat him twice,thus basking in all the glory that Quarry achieved by defeating men Mac Foster,Earnie Shavers and Ron Lyle - three men who Frazier was absolutely terrified of.




When a man's entire being is only relevent because of a far more successful man,far more decorated man than yourself,then you simply don't belong among the elite.

Decision
07-29-2010, 01:55 PM
No. He's an all-time great heavyweight. No doubt about it.

His chin is certainly overrated.

Aside from the first Bonavena fight, he's been knocked down by one of the hardest punchers in history. How does that equate to a bad chin?

Ali was knocked down by Cooper. Does he have a bad chin?

If Frazier is overrated, so is Ali.

Frazier whooped his ass remember? :D

When was this? I hope you're not talking about their first fight, because it was very close and the decision could've gone either way.

Heru
07-29-2010, 03:12 PM
No one is rating Frazier as a top 5 ATG Heavyweight, but he does deserve to be within the top 10-15, so no he isn't overrated.

r.burgundy
07-29-2010, 03:26 PM
lol @ the guy who gave med red k but didnt even post in here

Ziggy Stardust
07-29-2010, 03:37 PM
There are only a few on here that downtalk the Great Joe Frazier and they're the least reputable people on this board.

A-frickin'-men

Ziggy Stardust
07-29-2010, 03:40 PM
a leech, and a complete and utter fraud

My question is why are YOU (a complete and utter fraud of a poster) leeching off Boxing Scene? Come to think of it, why are you leeching oxygen from people far more deserving to breath than yourself? :thinking9:

Poet

GJC
07-29-2010, 04:22 PM
. If its wehre I rate him, as the number 67th best HW of all time.

I'd love to see the 66 HWs you have above Frazier. I'm assuming todays top 50 plus some tall guys from the recent past?

BillyBoxing
07-29-2010, 04:30 PM
No one is rating Frazier as a top 5 ATG Heavyweight, but he does deserve to be within the top 10-15, so no he isn't overrated.

That's the point.

BillyBoxing
07-29-2010, 04:35 PM
My question is why are YOU (a complete and utter fraud of a poster) leeching off Boxing Scene? Come to think of it, why are you leeching oxygen from people far more deserving to breath than yourself? :thinking9:

Poet

Do you sometimes let people disagree with you??

If a guy thinks Frazier is overrated,then it's his own opinion...
At least answer with facts instead of trading insults.
You ain't no smarter than others posters.

titanium
07-29-2010, 04:48 PM
Obviously he's underrated around here.

r.burgundy
07-29-2010, 06:07 PM
No one is rating Frazier as a top 5 ATG Heavyweight, but he does deserve to be within the top 10-15, so no he isn't overrated.

you would be suprised.some people have him in there top 10 all time lb for lb.smh

r.burgundy
07-29-2010, 06:09 PM
Do you sometimes let people disagree with you??

If a guy thinks Frazier is overrated,then it's his own opinion...
At least answer with facts instead of trading insults.
You ain't no smarter than others posters.

lmao.you just made his trolling list

Southpaw Great
07-29-2010, 06:14 PM
Bert Sugar ranks Frazier as the 34th greatest fighter P4P.

r.burgundy
07-29-2010, 06:19 PM
Bert Sugar ranks Frazier as the 34th greatest fighter P4P.

thats a good solid spot for joe but ive seen guys on here who really have him in a top 10.i have a problem with him being ranked in the top 10 of heavys but i think as these years go by he will drop further down most lists

Obama
07-29-2010, 08:28 PM
Frazier is usually rated as a top 10 HW, even more so than Sonny Liston. Liston was clearly the superior of the two as far as I'm concerned. So based on that I'd say he's definitely over rated.

That said I got no problem with him being in the top 15. Not sure that's ATG worthy though in a p4p sense. Being 205 lbs in his prime makes it borderline.

Cassius Liston
07-29-2010, 09:24 PM
thats a good solid spot for joe but ive seen guys on here who really have him in a top 10.i have a problem with him being ranked in the top 10 of heavys but i think as these years go by he will drop further down most lists

thats a cool thought....imagine in 200 years.....maybe we'll be lucky if ali,Marciano and Tyson will make any lists

Cassius Liston
07-29-2010, 09:26 PM
Frazier is usually rated as a top 10 HW, even more so than Sonny Liston. Liston was clearly the superior of the two as far as I'm concerned. So based on that I'd say he's definitely over rated.

That said I got no problem with him being in the top 15. Not sure that's ATG worthy though in a p4p sense. Being 205 lbs in his prime makes it borderline.

yeah i got Liston ahead of Joe in terms of greatness

$BloodyNate$
07-29-2010, 09:40 PM
Do you sometimes let people disagree with you??

If a guy thinks Frazier is overrated,then it's his own opinion...
At least answer with facts instead of trading insults.
You ain't no smarter than others posters.

Dude that post was obviously a ****in bait post. He's just trying to get me, poet, Jab, and Sonny all rilled up and at this point it's just annoying and just completely stupid. I don't even think he believes the own bull**** that comes out of his mouth. He just has no life and is trying to entertain himself by starting fights. Obvious definition of a troll.

No one is rating Frazier as a top 5 ATG Heavyweight, but he does deserve to be within the top 10-15, so no he isn't overrated.

Exactly this.

r.burgundy
07-29-2010, 11:11 PM
Dude that post was obviously a ****in bait post. He's just trying to get me, poet, Jab, and Sonny all rilled up and at this point it's just annoying and just completely stupid. I don't even think he believes the own bull**** that comes out of his mouth. He just has no life and is trying to entertain himself by starting fights. Obvious definition of a troll.





it wasnt a bait post.cause somebidy goes against popular opinion that makes it bait?he gave very good reasons why he felt the way he did and he is definitely entitled to an opinion.the 7 or 8 of us who voted that joe is overated agree with his post.
fact is joe went 1-5 against ali,and foreman who were the best of his era
he missed some big punchers and good contenders in lyle,norton, and shavers
and he retired pretty early
so plenty people should have a right to feel he's ovverated

Southpaw Great
07-29-2010, 11:13 PM
Frazier is usually rated as a top 10 HW, even more so than Sonny Liston. Liston was clearly the superior of the two as far as I'm concerned. So based on that I'd say he's definitely over rated.

That said I got no problem with him being in the top 15. Not sure that's ATG worthy though in a p4p sense. Being 205 lbs in his prime makes it borderline.

Why? Frazier beat the greater fighters and had the much better title reign. And looks just as good if not better on footage.

CarlosG815
07-29-2010, 11:28 PM
Why? Frazier beat the greater fighters and had the much better title reign. And looks just as good if not better on footage.

IMO, Frazier looks far better on footage than Liston.

I could watch Joe Frazier all day. Even Liston's fights with Patterson weren't all that impressive to watch, it was just a clear mismatch where a bigger guy beat up a smaller guy.

$BloodyNate$
07-30-2010, 12:12 AM
it wasnt a bait post.cause somebidy goes against popular opinion that makes it bait?he gave very good reasons why he felt the way he did and he is definitely entitled to an opinion.the 7 or 8 of us who voted that joe is overated agree with his post.
fact is joe went 1-5 against ali,and foreman who were the best of his era
he missed some big punchers and good contenders in lyle,norton, and shavers
and he retired pretty early
so plenty people should have a right to feel he's ovverated

Not a bait thread? Are you serious? It was obvious from the very first paragraph!

Easily the most overrated fighter of the last fifty years.A cherry picker,a leech, and a complete and utter fraud compared to the legitimate all time greats.


How the hell as a respectable fan of the sport who the loves the sport and respects any two warriors with the guts and heart that can go into the ring and scrap with each other, can somebody sit there and say such disgusting things about a former Heavyweight champion? It's disgusting. He could have gone about it without the name calling but he didn't as always. He's obviously just a troll & a hater. So you can't really take anything he says seriously.

How did he avoid Lyle? Jerry Quarry beat Lyle so it's ****in a clear as the sky on a hot a summer day why Frazier fought Quarry instead of Lyle. Lyle was never next in line to fight Frazier. So it didn't happen.

Stone Roses!
07-30-2010, 12:23 AM
IMO, Frazier looks far better on footage than Liston.

I could watch Joe Frazier all day. Even Liston's fights with Patterson weren't all that impressive to watch, it was just a clear mismatch where a bigger guy beat up a smaller guy.

Sonny Liston's 2 First Round KO's of an ATG Floyd Patterson didn't impress you? What a joke.


You want to talk about clear mismatches in size? What about Joe Frazier vs Bob Foster or Joe Frazier vs Eddie Machen or Joe Frazier vs Doug Jones?

BG_Knocc_Out
07-30-2010, 12:26 AM
Why do people downplay Frazier in his three fights with Ali? Frazier was obviously on his downward slope in his career and he still made the fight highly competitive in the 3rd while dominating in the first. Fraziers career was done by the 2nd Foreman fight. You have to remember this was a great era of competition in the heavies coming off of influential childhood heros in Joe Louis and Marciano which elevated the talent pool for the next generation. You may see some of the people the great heavies of the 70's have fought and say, "oh, never heard of him, he sucks", but the truth is those no name fighters talent level for their time was much higher than any era, which in my opinion elevates a lot of wins. Success at even being a champion in that era should be all the credit you need for the ATG list.

DarkTerror88
07-30-2010, 12:42 AM
If you think he was so dang overrated you step in the ring with the foreman fight version of him.

Obama
07-30-2010, 12:54 AM
Why? Frazier beat the greater fighters and had the much better title reign. And looks just as good if not better on footage.

He beat 1 greater fighter. Just one. I put Patterson, Machen, and Folley over everyone else he beat. Williams is right there with the even-more-over-rated-than-frazier Jerry Quarry. To be perfectly honest whether you look at the top or the depth of each resume, Liston's resume is simply superior. It's not remotely debatable. And I'll just have to disagree with who LOOKED like the better fighter. And if he looked so damn good why didn't he make ppl **** their pants like Sonny did? Lack of a stare? It was never the stare. They were scared because they knew and saw what he did to fighters that got in the ring before them. Now this is the part where you tell me Foreman was scared of him before the first fight. And you'd be right. Being scared of Frazier sure worked out a hell of a lot better than being scared of Liston however.

Obama
07-30-2010, 01:00 AM
Some other things. Sonny Liston never ducked or dodged anybody. He cleaned out the HW division before he even became Champion, something that hadn't been done since Joe Louis, who did it after he became Champion. The man also lied about his age. He was actually about 4-5 years older than he claimed to be. In other words when he lost the title he was already a 36/37 year old man. And he lost it to a man most of you want to call "The Greatest". So I don't see the problem.

r.burgundy
07-30-2010, 01:04 AM
Not a bait thread? Are you serious? It was obvious from the very first paragraph!



How the hell as a respectable fan of the sport who the loves the sport and respects any two warriors with the guts and heart that can go into the ring and scrap with each other, can somebody sit there and say such disgusting things about a former Heavyweight champion? It's disgusting. He could have gone about it without the name calling but he didn't as always. He's obviously just a troll & a hater. So you can't really take anything he says seriously.

How did he avoid Lyle? Jerry Quarry beat Lyle so it's ****in a clear as the sky on a hot a summer day why Frazier fought Quarry instead of Lyle. Lyle was never next in line to fight Frazier. So it didn't happen.

look around this forum.majority of guys say disgusting things about guys they dont like.especially the older posters.you should see what they say about tyson,klitscho and mayweather.this topic is a bit frustrating cause theres about 10 threads asking the same thing about joe.

yes his bashing may be over the top but he still backs his bashing with solid reasoning.why on earth somebody would get offended from a strangers opinion of a stranger is beyond me.instead of looking at his 1st paragraph why dont you adress the rest of the points he made
facts are he went 1-5 against the best of his era,and was thouroughly dominated in 2 of those,and he missed some good contenders.

lol,i didnt say he avoided lyle.but you already have a pre-built defense mechanism strait from jab lol.make your own arguments.this hostility between posters has ben going on before you came around here.
and it doesnt matter if there was a demand for a lyle fight,he was a top contender.if ali foght him,there is no reason frazier couldnt have either.especially bein that they are from the so called golden era.

$BloodyNate$
07-30-2010, 01:29 AM
look around this forum.majority of guys say disgusting things about guys they dont like.especially the older posters.you should see what they say about tyson,klitscho and mayweather.this topic is a bit frustrating cause theres about 10 threads asking the same thing about joe.

yes his bashing may be over the top but he still backs his bashing with solid reasoning.why on earth somebody would get offended from a strangers opinion of a stranger is beyond me.instead of looking at his 1st paragraph why dont you adress the rest of the points he made
facts are he went 1-5 against the best of his era,and was thouroughly dominated in 2 of those,and he missed some good contenders.

lol,i didnt say he avoided lyle.but you already have a pre-built defense mechanism strait from jab lol.make your own arguments.this hostility between posters has ben going on before you came around here.
and it doesnt matter if there was a demand for a lyle fight,he was a top contender.if ali foght him,there is no reason frazier couldnt have either.especially bein that they are from the so called golden era.

Like I already told Stones to make him look stupid when he tried to say that same bull**** when I clowned his ass in the thunderdome, THE FIRST THREAD EVER MADE HATING ON JOE FRAZIER from a month or 2 ago, I posted before Jab.

It is frustrating but that ****er gets his kicks out of it, I don't ****in get why their are some many ****in threads about. So I've already read Prinze's same points OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.

I know the old posters call fighters names and **** but that's not the point. HE KNOWS who's going to read his same argument over and over again, nothing changed, and that's why he started it by insulting Joe Frazier to try baiting me, Jab, Sonny, and Poet to come in after him but we didn't because it's old and ****in pointless.

And a stranger being offended by another strangers opinion of somebody happens all the time and is completely understandable. If some white dude calls a black man I have never met before the N word or does something racist, I'm going to be offended. That didn't happen in this thread I'm just making an example because your wrong. So don't get your panties all in a bunch. But it's not even about that, if you truly love the sport then you respect the guts it takes to get in their after several weeks of non-stop brutal training and get in their with another man and exchange fists. It's ****in pathetic to hear you clowns trash him when I don't see your asses in that ring or putting in the hard work to be a world class boxer. So yeah the name calling is a ***** move coming from a true ***** ass keyboard warrior that can feel safe spraying out his bull**** because he's hiding behind a computer.

Miburo
07-30-2010, 01:44 AM
I'd say he's a little overrated on this board as an overall package. Skill-wise he's not overrated at all.

r.burgundy
07-30-2010, 02:20 AM
Like I already told Stones to make him look stupid when he tried to say that same bull**** when I clowned his ass in the thunderdome, THE FIRST THREAD EVER MADE HATING ON JOE FRAZIER from a month or 2 ago, I posted before Jab.

It is frustrating but that ****er gets his kicks out of it, I don't ****in get why their are some many ****in threads about. So I've already read Prinze's same points OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.

I know the old posters call fighters names and **** but that's not the point. HE KNOWS who's going to read his same argument over and over again, nothing changed, and that's why he started it by insulting Joe Frazier to try baiting me, Jab, Sonny, and Poet to come in after him but we didn't because it's old and ****in pointless.

And a stranger being offended by another strangers opinion of somebody happens all the time and is completely understandable. If some white dude calls a black man I have never met before the N word or does something racist, I'm going to be offended. That didn't happen in this thread I'm just making an example because your wrong. So don't get your panties all in a bunch. But it's not even about that, if you truly love the sport then you respect the guts it takes to get in their after several weeks of non-stop brutal training and get in their with another man and exchange fists. It's ****in pathetic to hear you clowns trash him when I don't see your asses in that ring or putting in the hard work to be a world class boxer. So yeah the name calling is a ***** move coming from a true ***** ass keyboard warrior that can feel safe spraying out his bull**** because he's hiding behind a computer.

2 months??this has been going on for at least a year,and looking at the hatred and ages,maybe longer

so its ok for the old posters to do it,but a problem when somebody else does it?you just started coming in this section so nobody is trying to bait you of all posters.he's had his opinion long before these forums.and poet is 1 of the biggest instigators on this site

if somebody called joe a n*****,you have every right to be offended,but being black is where our connection to joe stops.i dont know that man.he's just a boxer to me.

if you truly love the sport how on earth can you say things like frazier didnt fight lyle cause there was no demand for it?its not about respect,its their job.they not doing this for free.these guys are making more than most make in a lifetime and they deserve extra respect?who the hell wouldnt step in a ring for the right price?

but on another note why is it pathetic for us clowns to bash joe but not pathetic for other clowns to bash klitscho or tyson?

prinzemanspopa
07-30-2010, 09:29 AM
Why do people downplay Frazier in his three fights with Ali?


It's quite simple,really.When you shamelessly continue live off of another man's name,his legacy,his accomplishments,then you're wide open for deserving criticism.


That trilogy is his one and only claim to fame.Without it,nobody would remember him in the slightest.



Despite being at a much better stage in his career,Frazier lost this trilogy decisively.And despite losing this trilogy,Frazier is usually remembered above far greater fighters than himself.Without that trilogy,he wouldn't even make it into the hall of fame.



Legitimate all time greats like Michael Spinks are all but forgotten except for some highlight package of young phemom at his peak.

Toney616
07-30-2010, 09:42 AM
It's quite simple,really.When you shamelessly continue live off of another man's name,his legacy,his accomplishments,then you're wide open for deserving criticism.
.
I have to disagree with you there, It's Frazier's hatred for Ali which causes him to keep talking about his trilogy with Ali to this very day

One man is still fighting in Manila and the other man doesn't even know where it is -Mark Kram

prinzemanspopa
07-30-2010, 09:57 AM
I have to disagree with you there, It's Frazier's hatred for Ali which causes him to keep talking about his trilogy with Ali to this very day




If you flash a money note in frazier's direction,he'll say whatever you want him to say.


You don't harbour a deep hatred towards someone and yet allow yourself to be pictured,smiling,arms around the man you claim to hate so much.frazier knows his place and when to make the right statement at the right time.



Either way,no contrived hatred will prevent frazier from continuing to live off,make money,from the one and only relevant chapter in his life.

Toney616
07-30-2010, 10:04 AM
If you flash a money note in frazier's direction,he'll say whatever you want him to say.
True, Thomas Hauser said the same thing at the ending of the HBO documentary The Thrilla in Manila

You don't harbour a deep hatred towards someone and yet allow yourself to be pictured,smiling,arms around the man you claim to hate so much.frazier knows his place and when to make the right statement at the right time.
It just shows how much of a hypocrite he is, but that doesnt mean his hatred isnt real

Either way,no contrived hatred will prevent frazier from continuing to live off,make money,from the one and only relevant chapter in his life.
I think its real enough and it has helped to derail his life out of the ring. I also do agree that his wars with Ali are what made him so famous to this day

Ziggy Stardust
07-30-2010, 10:57 AM
Like I already told Stones to make him look stupid when he tried to say that same bull**** when I clowned his ass in the thunderdome, THE FIRST THREAD EVER MADE HATING ON JOE FRAZIER from a month or 2 ago, I posted before Jab.

It is frustrating but that ****er gets his kicks out of it, I don't ****in get why their are some many ****in threads about. So I've already read Prinze's same points OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.

I know the old posters call fighters names and **** but that's not the point. HE KNOWS who's going to read his same argument over and over again, nothing changed, and that's why he started it by insulting Joe Frazier to try baiting me, Jab, Sonny, and Poet to come in after him but we didn't because it's old and ****in pointless.

And a stranger being offended by another strangers opinion of somebody happens all the time and is completely understandable. If some white dude calls a black man I have never met before the N word or does something racist, I'm going to be offended. That didn't happen in this thread I'm just making an example because your wrong. So don't get your panties all in a bunch. But it's not even about that, if you truly love the sport then you respect the guts it takes to get in their after several weeks of non-stop brutal training and get in their with another man and exchange fists. It's ****in pathetic to hear you clowns trash him when I don't see your asses in that ring or putting in the hard work to be a world class boxer. So yeah the name calling is a ***** move coming from a true ***** ass keyboard warrior that can feel safe spraying out his bull**** because he's hiding behind a computer.

Some people are incapable of seeing the difference between pointing out a fighter's weaknesses and the out and out character assasination that Prinzeman engages in.

Poet

prinzemanspopa
07-30-2010, 11:09 AM
Some people are incapable of seeing the difference between pointing out a fighter's weaknesses and the out and out character assasination that Prinzeman engages in.

Poet




Clearly an exaggeration on your part.I could think of a lot worse to call Frazier,but I won't,as it has absolutely nothing to do with the sport of boxing.



My criticisms of Frazier are more often or not boxing related.



It's no different to some of the stuff that you've come out with against someone like Wladimir Klitschko.




Natedatpkid is a pot smoking student.He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Ziggy Stardust
07-30-2010, 11:18 AM
Clearly an exaggeration on your part.I could think of a lot worse to call Frazier,but I won't,as it has absolutely nothing to do with the sport of boxing.

No you've just used terms like "leech" and "wife beater" ect. when talking about Frazier.


My criticisms of Frazier are more often or not boxing related.

"Leech" and "wife beater" are boxing related?


It's no different to some of the stuff that you've come out with against someone like Wladimir Klitschko.

Funny, but I've never accused Wlad of "leeching" off his big brother even though an argument could certainly be made for it.


Natedatpkid is a pot smoking student.He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

And you're a trolling oxygen thief who's never demonstrated you had a clue about what you're talking about since you've been here.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
07-30-2010, 11:20 AM
lmao.you just made his trolling list

Dude. He's BEEN on my troll list since the first day he posted in Boxing History.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
07-30-2010, 11:31 AM
Do you sometimes let people disagree with you??

I agree to disagree all the time. Especially when the poster isn't an obnoxious prick or is putting out crackpot views. There's a huge difference between a reasoned that differs somewhat from the conventional wisdom and nutcase arguments from the lunatic fringe.


If a guy thinks Frazier is overrated,then it's his own opinion...

While he's certainly entitled to his opinion he's NOT entitled to force others to give it credence. Better to have others think you're an idiot than open one's mouth and remove all doubt.


At least answer with facts instead of trading insults.

He was answered with facts in the early days of this debate. Most respectable posters no longer bother trying to talk sense to him.


You ain't no smarter than others posters.

You're making a comment on my intelligence using grammer THAT bad? :hahahaha9: For the record, while I may not be as intelligent as The GreatA, Jab, or GJC for example; I'd hazzard to say I'm probably much more intelligent than the typical NSB troll that slithers into the Boxing History section.

Poet

$BloodyNate$
07-30-2010, 02:17 PM
Natedatpkid is a pot smoking student.He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Man **** this. This is just too freakin ridiculous. **** this section especially if it's gonna be run by trolls.

R.I.P the old history section where you could post & learn and have a reasonable debate without trolls but ever since the Joe Frazier **** started in june this place has gone spiraling down in a plane crash.

Ziggy Stardust
07-30-2010, 02:20 PM
Man **** this. This is just too freakin ridiculous. **** this section especially if it's gonna be run by trolls.

R.I.P the old history section where you could post & learn and have a reasonable debate without trolls but ever since the Joe Frazier **** started in june this place has gone spiraling down in a plane crash.

Don't leave ffs! We're trying to get a mod in here to clean up the trolling :(

Poet

$BloodyNate$
07-30-2010, 02:30 PM
Not really leaving per say, just keeping my distance and picking my post wisely until a mod gets in here and stops all the trolling. I just don't understand why every single page has to have atleast one 10 page Joe Frazier hate thread. It's not the same as people hating on Wladimir or Tyson. I don't see Tyson or Klitschko hate threads hardly ever in the history section, only when a troll like The Magic Man brings the brothers in trying to say like their the greatest of all time.

And everybody already knows I'm a younger fan of the sport and am eager to learn and it's just annoying when trolls try to bring that up. And what the **** does smoking weed have to do with boxing history or somebody's knowledge of the sport? Pernell Whitaker did Cocaine, I'm sure others have done worst, why don't they try telling them they don't know **** about boxing.

It's just really annoying and like Jab told me before the more you respond to them the more people start thinking your trolling like them so I'm just keeping my distance til somebody can straighten this **** out. Cuz I got no patience and a short temper especially since im still young so it ain't worth gettin banned to snap at one of these idiots ha

Ziggy Stardust
07-30-2010, 02:57 PM
Not really leaving per say, just keeping my distance and picking my post wisely until a mod gets in here and stops all the trolling. I just don't understand why every single page has to have atleast one 10 page Joe Frazier hate thread. It's not the same as people hating on Wladimir or Tyson. I don't see Tyson or Klitschko hate threads hardly ever in the history section, only when a troll like The Magic Man brings the brothers in trying to say like their the greatest of all time.

And everybody already knows I'm a younger fan of the sport and am eager to learn and it's just annoying when trolls try to bring that up. And what the **** does smoking weed have to do with boxing history or somebody's knowledge of the sport? Pernell Whitaker did Cocaine, I'm sure others have done worst, why don't they try telling them they don't know **** about boxing.

It's just really annoying and like Jab told me before the more you respond to them the more people start thinking your trolling like them so I'm just keeping my distance til somebody can straighten this **** out. Cuz I got no patience and a short temper especially since im still young so it ain't worth gettin banned to snap at one of these idiots ha

Don't feel bad: I'm 42 and have no patience and a short fuze :hahahaha9: I stopped trying to have a reasoned discussion with those idiots a long time ago. Generally I just settle for letting them know they aren't welcome in the Boxing History section and pointing out they're morons when they post something particularly outrageous. Even THAT'S probably giving them more attention than they deserve :)

Poet

prinzemanspopa
07-30-2010, 03:41 PM
"Leech" and "wife beater" are boxing related?


Yes,Frazier's leeching is "boxing related".

Funny, but I've never accused Wlad of "leeching" off his big brother even though an argument could certainly be made for it.




You haven't done so because you can't.Wladimir's resume is far superior to that of his brother.


Up until Vitali's fight with Lewis,it was Wladimir who was touted as the more superior of the two(rightfully so,btw)

BG_Knocc_Out
07-30-2010, 03:48 PM
It's quite simple,really.When you shamelessly continue live off of another man's name,his legacy,his accomplishments,then you're wide open for deserving criticism.


That trilogy is his one and only claim to fame.Without it,nobody would remember him in the slightest.



Despite being at a much better stage in his career,Frazier lost this trilogy decisively.And despite losing this trilogy,Frazier is usually remembered above far greater fighters than himself.Without that trilogy,he wouldn't even make it into the hall of fame.



Legitimate all time greats like Michael Spinks are all but forgotten except for some highlight package of young phemom at his peak.

It's no surprise you hate Frazier, considering you've made a post career of discrediting everything about him. Lets not forget how deep YOUR hatred for him runs through you. At one point you even had both avatar and sig dedicated to him. You're forgetting how competative his fights with Ali were. You take a look at the simple 'L' on Boxrec and you think, "oh, he lost, that means he's a terrible fighter". Frazier was at a much better stag in his career? What are you talking about? It's the second half of Ali's career that made him and Frazier was just the beginning of the second half. By then Frazier was already heading south, majorly due to health problems. And don't even try to deny that because knowing people like you and your predictable mannerisms in trying to discredit others is to deny any sort of obstacle that could give reasoning. Why bring up Michael Spinks? According to your logic, Michael Spinks should be a terrible fighter for getting blasted in one by Tyson. Based on your logic again, his only good wins are against Cooney and Holmes and the rest are just ok-solid fighters. Now I'm not saying what I said about Spinks is what I believe, but I'm just explaining his career out through the logic your presenting, which is very flawed.

prinzemanspopa
07-30-2010, 04:15 PM
It's no surprise you hate Frazier, considering you've made a post career of discrediting everything about him. Lets not forget how deep YOUR hatred for him runs through you. At one point you even had both avatar and sig dedicated to him. You're forgetting how competative his fights with Ali were. You take a look at the simple 'L' on Boxrec and you think, "oh, he lost, that means he's a terrible fighter". Frazier was at a much better stag in his career? What are you talking about? It's the second half of Ali's career that made him and Frazier was just the beginning of the second half. By then Frazier was already heading south, majorly due to health problems. And don't even try to deny that because knowing people like you and your predictable mannerisms in trying to discredit others is to deny any sort of obstacle that could give reasoning. Why bring up Michael Spinks? According to your logic, Michael Spinks should be a terrible fighter for getting blasted in one by Tyson. Based on your logic again, his only good wins are against Cooney and Holmes and the rest are just ok-solid fighters. Now I'm not saying what I said about Spinks is what I believe, but I'm just explaining his career out through the logic your presenting, which is very flawed.





You should try using the odd paragraph every now and then,it does help sometimes.



I brought Michael Spinks up as he's the typical case of a truly great fighter who was involved in one disastrous fight that forever defined him to the casual,mainstream viewer.A far greater fighter than frazier,although he'd never be credited for being so.


Yes,frazier was at a better stage in his career than Ali when they fought three times.He was far closer to his prime,suffered no serious layoff and wasn't as technically flawed as Ali was.


In an ideal world for frazier and his apologists: frazier cleared his division of all contenders,beat a prime,non-rusty version of Ali and was a walking cripple at the time he stepped in the ring with George foreman(the first puncher he ever faced in his life).


Unfortunately for you lot,facts always outweigh myths.


Why should any world class fighter be given credit for being competitive with someone like Ali of the mid 70's? A feather fisted,fat shadow of what he once was.Part time fighter/part time clown at the time he and frazier fought for the third time.


The same Ali that fought frazier the third time was the same version who fought Alfredo Evangelista,who won as many rounds,was as competitive,and landed more clean body shots against Ali than frazier ever did.




Try taking a look of frazier's accomplishments outside of Ali and then compare it to other all time greats.


As I said earlier: "it's like comparing a piss puddle to a lake".

BG_Knocc_Out
07-31-2010, 07:28 PM
You should try using the odd paragraph every now and then,it does help sometimes.



I brought Michael Spinks up as he's the typical case of a truly great fighter who was involved in one disastrous fight that forever defined him to the casual,mainstream viewer.A far greater fighter than frazier,although he'd never be credited for being so.


Yes,frazier was at a better stage in his career than Ali when they fought three times.He was far closer to his prime,suffered no serious layoff and wasn't as technically flawed as Ali was.


In an ideal world for frazier and his apologists: frazier cleared his division of all contenders,beat a prime,non-rusty version of Ali and was a walking cripple at the time he stepped in the ring with George foreman(the first puncher he ever faced in his life).


Unfortunately for you lot,facts always outweigh myths.


Why should any world class fighter be given credit for being competitive with someone like Ali of the mid 70's? A feather fisted,fat shadow of what he once was.Part time fighter/part time clown at the time he and frazier fought for the third time.


The same Ali that fought frazier the third time was the same version who fought Alfredo Evangelista,who won as many rounds,was as competitive,and landed more clean body shots against Ali than frazier ever did.




Try taking a look of frazier's accomplishments outside of Ali and then compare it to other all time greats.


As I said earlier: "it's like comparing a piss puddle to a lake".

Who gives two ****s about paragraphs, pay attention to the content. You brought up Michael Spinks and failed to give any sort of evidence in the differentiation between the two. You only gave an opinion. You take a look at Fraziers and Spinks' careers, they are very similar in competition on their resume, yet your OPINION somehow outweighs everything, right? Frazier had two disastrous fights with one of the best and biggest punchers in history, but I guess that's not good enough for you? That should discredit his entire career, right? Why are you so smug about your bias? It's no secret you're the biggest troll on this entire forum. No Frazier was not at a better stage in his career. What else did Frazier accomplish after-wards? Not very much. Ali at least went on on to beat Norton and Shavers, a better caliber of opponents than Frazier went on to face. They are similar in age, only Ali started his career 5 years before. Frazier has had lots of health problems, and many of them are apparent now. They are pretty well documented health problems in Frazier during this period, it's not some bull**** he made up as an excuse 20 years later. Now you're making the mistake of accusing me of saying Joe was the best in the 60's or 70's, ha. I find it pretty funny because you also have forgotten Boxing is business and it's no different as to how things work nowadays. Ali was the only fighter of that era who was able to get into the ring with the majority of great heavyweights. There was only like 2 giant punchers like Foreman during that era and Frazier didn't fight them, so automatically he was a ducker? I know this is normally your argument in other threads, but you also forget at how many fighters there are out there to fight, and these big punchers were the ones who racked in the paydays at the time. It's much more possible for fights not to happen with big punchers because the money is much bigger then. Just like the situation with Maidana; huge puncher, but he wants more money for his fights because they are entertaining. This really isn't about the facts because most of the heavyweights then have similar resumes as Frazier, much like my comparison early between him and Spinks. Are you seriously comparing the Evangelista fight with the Thrilla in Manila? You're crazy to think if that holds any weight with the fight that is considered probably one of the most competitive fights of all time. Obviously Frazier's resume won't look to hot compared to the fighters in the 20's-40's, but it's very apparent that boxing became much more of a business than having the best fight the best. Especially with the inclusion of Don King and Bob Arum. You're personal vendetta against Frazier is extremely apparent.

prinzemanspopa
08-01-2010, 03:37 PM
Who gives two ****s about paragraphs, pay attention to the content. You brought up Michael Spinks and failed to give any sort of evidence in the differentiation between the two. You only gave an opinion. You take a look at Fraziers and Spinks' careers, they are very similar in competition on their resume, yet your OPINION somehow outweighs everything, right?




I do.Hence my suggestion.It makes for difficult reading and makes it a whole lot more difficult to respond to.


No,they're not similar in competition.Spinks fought and beat better opposition than frazier did.He moved up,against all odds,and beat a guy who is regarded as a great in his own division.When did frazier ever rise up,against all the odds,and accomplish such a feat?



Frazier had two disastrous fights with one of the best and biggest punchers in history, but I guess that's not good enough for you? That should discredit his entire career, right? Why are you so smug about your bias? It's no secret you're the biggest troll on this entire forum.



And he was knocked down eight times in total.I don't care how much of a puncher foreman is,no elite fighter should be getting knocked down that often as early as frazier was in the first fight.


The fights proved that he had a glass jaw and he never fought another puncher to prove that he could actually take a punch from a real banger.



No Frazier was not at a better stage in his career. What else did Frazier accomplish after-wards? Not very much. Ali at least went on on to beat Norton and Shavers, a better caliber of opponents than Frazier went on to face. They are similar in age, only Ali started his career 5 years before. Frazier has had lots of health problems, and many of them are apparent now. They are pretty well documented health problems in Frazier during this period, it's not some bull**** he made up as an excuse 20 years later.




Ali facing and beating better opposition has nothing to do with him eing at a etter stage in his career.That's just a fighter who doesn't cherry pick his way around the division.He was clearly shot against both Norton and Shavers(a man frazier ducked).Picking up highly disputed decisions against both.



Now you're making the mistake of accusing me of saying Joe was the best in the 60's or 70's, ha. I find it pretty funny because you also have forgotten Boxing is business and it's no different as to how things work nowadays. Ali was the only fighter of that era who was able to get into the ring with the majority of great heavyweights. There was only like 2 giant punchers like Foreman during that era and Frazier didn't fight them, so automatically he was a ducker? I know this is normally your argument in other threads, but you also forget at how many fighters there are out there to fight, and these big punchers were the ones who racked in the paydays at the time.



This is incorrect.Ali certainly was not the only heavyweight who went out of his way to fight all top contenders in his division.Jerry Quarry did the exact same thing,as Ron Lyle(another contender frazier ducked) also did.


frazier had a history of avoiding punchers.from very early in his career right till the very end of his career.Plenty of punchers in that era that were ranked in the top ten,that Ali and Quarry managed to fight,whom frazier didn't fight.




Are you seriously comparing the Evangelista fight with the Thrilla in Manila? You're crazy to think if that holds any weight with the fight that is considered probably one of the most competitive fights of all time. Obviously Frazier's resume won't look to hot compared to the fighters in the 20's-40's, but it's very apparent that boxing became much more of a business than having the best fight the best. Especially with the inclusion of Don King and Bob Arum. You're personal vendetta against Frazier is extremely apparent.




Have you even seen the Evangelista fight? He was as competetitive,won as many rounds as frazier did in their third fight.Seems like your discrediting Evangelista rather than me discrediting Ole Smoke.



I'm glad that you've acknowledged frazier's cherry picking,though.After reading what you posted,I'm not entirely sure what we're arguing about.

Southpaw Great
08-01-2010, 03:57 PM
Michael Spinks>>>>>Joe Frazier

#1Assassin
08-01-2010, 04:59 PM
frazier in his prime was like a monster.

CRESCENDOPOWER
08-01-2010, 05:07 PM
Michael Spinks>>>>>Joe Frazier

Jesus F-ing Christ Almighty!:wank::crackhead:puke:

NChristo
08-01-2010, 06:14 PM
Jesus F-ing Christ Almighty!:wank::crackhead:puke:

Michael Spinks easily has an argument to rank ahead of Joe Frazier imo, he dominated in one of the strongest LHW eras and has an argument for #1 LHW of all time. Then he left undefeated to move to heavyweight and scored some decent wins untill Tyson beat him.

Uturn
08-01-2010, 06:15 PM
Prime Frazier was the real deal, no questions asked.

BG_Knocc_Out
08-02-2010, 04:15 AM
I do.Hence my suggestion.It makes for difficult reading and makes it a whole lot more difficult to respond to.


No,they're not similar in competition.Spinks fought and beat better opposition than frazier did.He moved up,against all odds,and beat a guy who is regarded as a great in his own division.When did frazier ever rise up,against all the odds,and accomplish such a feat?







And he was knocked down eight times in total.I don't care how much of a puncher foreman is,no elite fighter should be getting knocked down that often as early as frazier was in the first fight.


The fights proved that he had a glass jaw and he never fought another puncher to prove that he could actually take a punch from a real banger.








Ali facing and beating better opposition has nothing to do with him eing at a etter stage in his career.That's just a fighter who doesn't cherry pick his way around the division.He was clearly shot against both Norton and Shavers(a man frazier ducked).Picking up highly disputed decisions against both.







This is incorrect.Ali certainly was not the only heavyweight who went out of his way to fight all top contenders in his division.Jerry Quarry did the exact same thing,as Ron Lyle(another contender frazier ducked) also did.


frazier had a history of avoiding punchers.from very early in his career right till the very end of his career.Plenty of punchers in that era that were ranked in the top ten,that Ali and Quarry managed to fight,whom frazier didn't fight.









Have you even seen the Evangelista fight? He was as competetitive,won as many rounds as frazier did in their third fight.Seems like your discrediting Evangelista rather than me discrediting Ole Smoke.



I'm glad that you've acknowledged frazier's cherry picking,though.After reading what you posted,I'm not entirely sure what we're arguing about.

Well for one, it's a bit different when you were in the top of the division (the heaviest division, of course) and steady making title defenses. Spinks had the luxory of starting at a smaller weight, much different. But it's very common to see LHW's make it as heavyweights considering their body frames are very similar, only difference is body types. That's why you can see many similarities in natural size, and a lot of the time the only difference is how much meat you got on the bone which is where metabolism and many variables take hand. Sure every now and then you get a Klitschko like monster, but 90% of heavyweights are naturally not much bigger than anybody around the 175-200 lb divisions (obviously there are exceptions, but this is generalizing). So when you're heavyweight champion of the world, making your title defenses against solid competition. So when you're on top of the world after beating Jimmy Ellis for the vacant WBC title (probably the biggest title sanction), how are you going to look like the underdog in any fight? How would Frazier get his chance to rise up like so? Especially when you're undefeated at the time and have feared power? You're almost never going to look like the underdog. So you're questioning as to why Frazier had never done so is almost irrelevant in this comparison seeing as how Frazier wouldn't really have the option. And once again, you're opinion is thrown out there as a fact. "No Heavyweight contender should be knocked down that many times", yet you don't care how big a puncher Foreman is? Foreman, the man who cam back for a second career only off power and won the Heavyweight championship. Most the fighter Foreman fought were down after the first knockdown. Frazier was ABLE to get up. Frazier never tried to prove he could take a punch? Then why did he take the rematch with Foreman? He had a glass jaw based on the fights he had with arguably the heaviest puncher of all time? That's a shame to be knocked down by George Foreman? Hahaha, your logic is so flawed. So I suppose everyone that Foreman, Shavers, Galaxxy, both Klitschko's, and Louis knocked out ALL had glass chins? How many times has Frazier been down outside of Foreman fights? Once or twice? Nothing notable. It's actually pretty amazing seeing as how Heavyweights obviously hit much harder than any division and also when you have that body frame, your punching power is increased, but your punch resistance isn't as amplified. Also you have to note the fact that lifting weights and other strength exercises are much more expressed in the division compared to the others due to the enthusiasm to have more power to sacrifice speed. How does not beating top opposition make you not at the top of game? Once again, flawed. Plus you didn't even give an reasoning behind it. Ali was still sharp enough to take on experienced fighters and edge them out as Frazier was taking out lesser opposition. Ali was definitely in the better stage of his career than Frazier by putting on much better performances. Funny that you take when I said that Ali was the only one who fought everyone statement so literal. How big of a name is Quarry? How big of a name is Lyle? How much have they accomplished? Let me restate it because your trying to find small things in my post to boast and attack about. Ali was THE only fighter to fight the majority of top fighters in this era and be successful. No, there weren't very many punchers during Fraziers early career that would gain anything out of beating them. See, this is where your accusations have to put in perspective of how many fighters are out there, how many are contenders, etc. Go back and read my piece on the last post because it's another great reply to your "avoiding punchers" accusation. Have you noticed a trend here at all? Everything you state has been what YOU think. And no, I'm not discrediting the Evangelista, I'm simply stating that the Thrilla was a much more competitive fight than Evangelista. When I say such, you have to add in the factors of the pace of the fight, punches traded, punches thrown, work-rate, everything, not the amount of rounds won and lost. It's like saying when Chad Dawson takes off rounds and shells up against the ropes and lets his opponent smack his gloves competitive. You only have so much time on this Earth to fight opponents that I'm pretty sure fighters around worrying about evening out what kind of opponents they should face in categories like punchers, boxers, counter-punchers, slick fighters, etc, etc, etc. You can always make a case for 99% of fighters and accuse them of not fighting a certain type. Here's a common one these days. Why hasn't Manny Pacquiao fought any slick African-American fighters? Pretty vague, right? Or why hasn't Khan fought as much good opposition at the age of 23? Your accusation of him ducking punchers is so vague, especially when you take into account of him fighting Foreman. Why did he fight him if he was afraid of punchers? Especially against the biggest and most successful puncher of that era? Twice for that matter. Make any sense? Giant punchers are hard to come by. It's like saying someone is avoiding one person in a crowd of 200, yet he can't find him.

Spartacus Sully
08-02-2010, 04:35 AM
Foreman is one of the most overrated punchers of all time.

what happens when you try to spin people in circles then push them real hard about the head?

They Fall down!!!!!!! Guess what they do then????? They get back up barely phased and slightly confused.

Im sure we can all name multiple people that one of the Hardest punchers of allllllll time had no problem spinning around in circles and pushing down till he won. 40 some TKO's, thats 40 well still gotta have some tkos so ill cut it in half, thats 20 some times that the hardest puncher of all time had multiple oppertunities to knock some one the f**k out, but couldnt.

Foreman, the most overrated puncher of all time.

know how many tko's dempsey had? 5/51. marciano? 1/43. fitzsimmons? 8/60. louis? 20/51. Jim jeffries? 7/15. Foreman? 40/68!!!

BG_Knocc_Out
08-02-2010, 05:07 AM
Foreman is one of the most overrated punchers of all time.

what happens when you try to spin people in circles then push them real hard about the head?

They Fall down!!!!!!! Guess what they do then????? They get back up barely phased and slightly confused.

Im sure we can all name multiple people that one of the Hardest punchers of allllllll time had no problem spinning around in circles and pushing down till he won. 40 some TKO's, thats 40 well still gotta have some tkos so ill cut it in half, thats 20 some times that the hardest puncher of all time had multiple oppertunities to knock some one the f**k out, but couldnt.

Foreman, the most overrated puncher of all time.

know how many tko's dempsey had? 5/51. marciano? 1/43. fitzsimmons? 8/60. louis? 20/51. Jim jeffries? 7/15. Foreman? 40/68!!!

Still managed to knock people down/out with succession regardless, didn't he? If this was aimed at me and my argument, it shouldn't matter whether the manner he knocked people out by, he still managed to do it to many opponents. My intended argument wasn't about raw force. In regards to your post, I'll correct myself in saying he was one of the hardest punchers of all time, and rephrase it to one of the most SUCCESSFUL punchers of all time.

Spartacus Sully
08-02-2010, 05:33 AM
Still managed to knock people down/out with succession regardless, didn't he? If this was aimed at me and my argument, it shouldn't matter whether the manner he knocked people out by, he still managed to do it to many opponents. My intended argument wasn't about raw force. In regards to your post, I'll correct myself in saying he was one of the hardest punchers of all time, and rephrase it to one of the most SUCCESSFUL punchers of all time.

well aimed at you and the hundreds of other people that claim foreman to be one of the hardest punchers of all time when talking of how fraizer some how managed to stand up 6 times and was still willing to continue....well no duh all foreman did was push fraizer over. A truck going 5 mph can knock me over tons of times and i imagine illl still be able to get up....Though after being hit by a 1 lb fast ball things might be diffrent.

just saying that foreman wasnt a fast puncher so in that friazer went down 6 times dosnt really mean anything because foreman wasnt punching him in the chin as much as he was spinning him around and pushing him down with his fists. while at the same time that fraizer was able to get up 6 times after being beaten down by the hardest puncher of all time dosnt really say anything either because this hardest puncher lacked speed in his punch the speed that causes ones brain to remain still for a few seconds after the head allready has started moving, foreman lacked the speed that tests chins and ko's people.

ones ability to or not to stand up to foreman isnt about ones chin.

Sucessful puncher sounds good.

ji23
08-02-2010, 05:48 AM
There are only a few on here that downtalk the Great Joe Frazier and they're the least reputable people on this board.
hell no... if he is then everyone else he ever fought are as well

r.burgundy
08-02-2010, 07:14 AM
Foreman is one of the most overrated punchers of all time.

what happens when you try to spin people in circles then push them real hard about the head?

They Fall down!!!!!!! Guess what they do then????? They get back up barely phased and slightly confused.

Im sure we can all name multiple people that one of the Hardest punchers of allllllll time had no problem spinning around in circles and pushing down till he won. 40 some TKO's, thats 40 well still gotta have some tkos so ill cut it in half, thats 20 some times that the hardest puncher of all time had multiple oppertunities to knock some one the f**k out, but couldnt.

Foreman, the most overrated puncher of all time.

know how many tko's dempsey had? 5/51. marciano? 1/43. fitzsimmons? 8/60. louis? 20/51. Jim jeffries? 7/15. Foreman? 40/68!!!

these guys on this board want to give foreman the strength of thor to help joe frazier save face or chin.

they say"how does losing to the hardest puncher in the history of boxing = a glass jaw"

or

"foreman is the hardest punching man to ever roam the universe,and joe took everything he had and kept coming back for more"

its pure stand up comedy

SBleeder
08-02-2010, 12:21 PM
Without a doubt he was the best swarming heavyweight ever. Definitely not overrated.

prinzemanspopa
08-03-2010, 03:43 AM
Well for one, it's a bit different when you were in the top of the division (the heaviest division, of course) and steady making title defenses. Spinks had the luxory of starting at a smaller weight, much different. But it's very common to see LHW's make it as heavyweights considering their body frames are very similar, only difference is body types.



Spinks didn't have the luxury of anything.This wasn't some heavyweight working his way down to light-heavyweight.We're talking about a man who had to bulk up to reach the weight that he felt appropriate to compete against already established heavyweights.


Very rarely do you see light-heavyweights move up to heavyweight and beat the very best in that division.Michael Spinks did,however.







And once again, you're opinion is thrown out there as a fact. "No Heavyweight contender should be knocked down that many times", yet you don't care how big a puncher Foreman is? Foreman, the man who cam back for a second career only off power and won the Heavyweight championship. Most the fighter Foreman fought were down after the first knockdown. Frazier was ABLE to get up. Frazier never tried to prove he could take a punch? Then why did he take the rematch with Foreman?



Because he wanted to retire with a big fight with a nice final payday.Is it that difficult to understand?


No "elite" fighter should be getting knocked down that often,that early in a championship fight.That's not just an opinion.No elite fighter would walk away from such a fight without serious questions posed over his ability to take a punch


Go ask Wladimir Klitschko what wonders the Corrie Sanders fight did for his career and reputation.




He had a glass jaw based on the fights he had with arguably the heaviest puncher of all time? That's a shame to be knocked down by George Foreman? Hahaha, your logic is so flawed. So I suppose everyone that Foreman, Shavers, Galaxxy, both Klitschko's, and Louis knocked out ALL had glass chins? How many times has Frazier been down outside of Foreman fights? Once or twice? Nothing notable.



How many punchers did Frazier fight outside of Foreman? I do know that Bonavena dropped him twice early,as did some journeyman very early in his career.So in total,Frazier was dropped nearly a dozen times in just thirty seven professional bouts.Eight coming against the only puncher he ever faced.



How does not beating top opposition make you not at the top of game? Once again, flawed. Plus you didn't even give an reasoning behind it. Ali was still sharp enough to take on experienced fighters and edge them out as Frazier was taking out lesser opposition. Ali was definitely in the better stage of his career than Frazier by putting on much better performances.




Because most of us are able to take performances into account,compare them to past perormances and realize a great decline when we see one.


Ali's level of opposition was always superior to Fraziers,so such a comparison is irrelevant in this argument.He wasn't "putting on much better performances" at that time,either.Not by a long shot.






Funny that you take when I said that Ali was the only one who fought everyone statement so literal.How big of a name is Quarry? How big of a name is Lyle? How much have they accomplished? Let me restate it because your trying to find small things in my post to boast and attack about. Ali was THE only fighter to fight the majority of top fighters in this era and be successful. No, there weren't very many punchers during Fraziers early career that would gain anything out of beating them. See, this is where your accusations have to put in perspective of how many fighters are out there, how many are contenders, etc. Go back and read my piece on the last post because it's another great reply to your "avoiding punchers" accusation. Have you noticed a trend here at all? Everything you state has been what YOU think.




Ah,right.So what you're saying is,"Frazier was a big name,so he didn't need to fight other top contenders,despite being nothing more than one himself after Foreman disposed of him".


Is that what you're saying? Because it sure seems like it to me.


There was a puncher,also a former sparring partner of Fraziers,in his own hometown.His name was Leotis Martin,and Frazier didn't want to fight him




Giant punchers are hard to come by.




Which is kinda funny considering how many punchers there were during Frazier's era.Punchers who were not only ranked in the ring magazines top ten list of heavyweights,but also secured fights with other well-known heavyweights such as Muhammad Ali and Jerry Quarry.

sonnyboyx2
08-03-2010, 04:37 AM
these guys on this board want to give foreman the strength of thor to help joe frazier save face or chin.

they say"how does losing to the hardest puncher in the history of boxing = a glass jaw"

or

"foreman is the hardest punching man to ever roam the universe,and joe took everything he had and kept coming back for more"

its pure stand up comedy

are you saying that those assumptions are not correct?

sonnyboyx2
08-03-2010, 04:45 AM
Spinks didn't have the luxury of anything.This wasn't some heavyweight working his way down to light-heavyweight.We're talking about a man who had to bulk up to reach the weight that he felt appropriate to compete against already established heavyweights.


Very rarely do you see light-heavyweights move up to heavyweight and beat the very best in that division.Michael Spinks did,however.











Because he wanted to retire with a big fight with a nice final payday.Is it that difficult to understand?


No "elite" fighter should be getting knocked down that often,that early in a championship fight.That's not just an opinion.No elite fighter would walk away from such a fight without serious questions posed over his ability to take a punch


Go ask Wladimir Klitschko what wonders the Corrie Sanders fight did for his career and reputation.








How many punchers did Frazier fight outside of Foreman? I do know that Bonavena dropped him twice early,as did some journeyman very early in his career.So in total,Frazier was dropped nearly a dozen times in just thirty seven professional bouts.Eight coming against the only puncher he ever faced.








Because most of us are able to take performances into account,compare them to past perormances and realize a great decline when we see one.


Ali's level of opposition was always superior to Fraziers,so such a comparison is irrelevant in this argument.He wasn't "putting on much better performances" at that time,either.Not by a long shot.











Ah,right.So what you're saying is,"Frazier was a big name,so he didn't need to fight other top contenders,despite being nothing more than one himself after Foreman disposed of him".


Is that what you're saying? Because it sure seems like it to me.


There was a puncher,also a former sparring partner of Fraziers,in his own hometown.His name was Leotis Martin,and Frazier didn't want to fight him









Which is kinda funny considering how many punchers there were during Frazier's era.Punchers who were not only ranked in the ring magazines top ten list of heavyweights,but also secured fights with other well-known heavyweights such as Muhammad Ali and Jerry Quarry.

The moral of this thread is " No referee ever counted 10 over Joe Frazier" and Frazier twice fought the hardest puncher in the history of the sport... so the vast majority of members who voted on this topic got the answer correct in that Frazier did not have a Glass jaw

Holmes out for the 10 count vs Tyson
Lewis out for the 10 count vs Rahman
Liston out for the 10 count vs Martin
Holyfield out for the 10 count vs Bowe
Tyson out for the 10 count vs Douglas
Norton out for the 10 count vs Cooney
Louis out for the 10 count vs Marciano
Dempsey out for the 10 count vs Flynn
Johnson out for the 10 count vs Willard
Patterson out for the 10 count vs Liston
Foreman out for the 10 count vs Ali
FRAZIER out for the 10 count NEVER EVER!

Spartacus Sully
08-03-2010, 04:46 AM
are you saying that those assumptions are not correct?

foreman could dent a ball of silly putty with his punch.

while a real punchers fist would bounce off.

Sucessfull puncher? yes. Hardest? not even top 10.

sonnyboyx2
08-03-2010, 06:51 AM
foreman could dent a ball of silly putty with his punch.

while a real punchers fist would bounce off.

Sucessfull puncher? yes. Hardest? not even top 10.

Norton, Lyle, Holyfield & Ali all claim Foreman was the hardest puncher

SNVDoublePunch!
08-03-2010, 07:44 AM
....No. Not at all.

SNVDoublePunch!
08-03-2010, 07:45 AM
Norton, Lyle, Holyfield & Ali all claim Foreman was the hardest puncher

Ali claims that Shavers was the hardest puncher, that I've seen him talk about it.

TBear
08-03-2010, 07:46 AM
THe nays have it!


by a landslide

SNVDoublePunch!
08-03-2010, 07:50 AM
As a matter of fact, I think the existence of this thread is a good indication that he is underrated if anything.

Spartacus Sully
08-03-2010, 08:06 AM
As a matter of fact, I think the existence of this thread is a good indication that he is underrated if anything.

I think if anything its a good indication that he is rated exactly where he should be.

r.burgundy
08-03-2010, 01:36 PM
are you saying that those assumptions are not correct?

yes im saying those assumptions arent correct.he was the hardest hitting heavy of the 70's for sure but there have been plenty of bigger punchers since george

if joe took everything george had,he mightve made it a decent fight.fact is,alot of those punches george landed to seemed to be glancing blows

sonnyboyx2
08-03-2010, 02:17 PM
yes im saying those assumptions arent correct.he was the hardest hitting heavy of the 70's for sure but there have been plenty of bigger punchers since george

if joe took everything george had,he mightve made it a decent fight.fact is,alot of those punches george landed to seemed to be glancing blows

none of those punches was "glancing-blows" like you try to insinuate, they all landed Flush starting with a devastating uppercut which nearly tore Joe`s head off, there was foul punches to the back of Frazier`s head and there was a right uppercut which lifted Frazier off the floor such was the power of Foremans punches, Legendary boxing reporters like Gil Clancy, Norman Mailer & George Plimton all claimed that those punches was the hardest punches ever in a boxing ring, Legendary IBHOF referee Arthur Mercante said Foreman was the hardest puncher he had ever seen, he also said that as he stopped the fight "Frazier was up and ready to go" which is an unbelievable testement to Joe Frazier... but i suppose to you they are all talking bull**** coz you know different yeah.

Cassius Liston
08-03-2010, 02:44 PM
none of those punches was "glancing-blows" like you try to insinuate, they all landed Flush starting with a devastating uppercut which nearly tore Joe`s head off, there was foul punches to the back of Frazier`s head and there was a right uppercut which lifted Frazier off the floor such was the power of Foremans punches, Legendary boxing reporters like Gil Clancy, Norman Mailer & George Plimton all claimed that those punches was the hardest punches ever in a boxing ring, Legendary IBHOF referee Arthur Mercante said Foreman was the hardest puncher he had ever seen, he also said that as he stopped the fight "Frazier was up and ready to go" which is an unbelievable testement to Joe Frazier... but i suppose to you they are all talking bull**** coz you know different yeah.

these guys have to be trolls....from what i saw in the Foreman fights....Frazier had an iron chin an he did look ready when they stopped the fight.....those punches he took would have killed many men

Ziggy Stardust
08-03-2010, 02:57 PM
he was the hardest hitting heavy of the 70's for sure but there have been plenty of bigger punchers since george

Name them so we can laugh at you.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
08-03-2010, 03:00 PM
Holmes out for the 10 count vs Tyson
Lewis out for the 10 count vs Rahman

Actually Holmes wasn't counted out: The ref waived the fight off at the 3rd knockdown without giving a count.

Poet

sonnyboyx2
08-03-2010, 03:20 PM
yes im saying those assumptions arent correct.he was the hardest hitting heavy of the 70's for sure but there have been plenty of bigger punchers since george

if joe took everything george had,he mightve made it a decent fight.fact is,alot of those punches george landed to seemed to be glancing blows

George foreman-

Often thought of as the most powerful puncher in the history of the sport
, Foreman could easily break menís bones with his punches. Once he hit his stride in the early 1970s, he developed the bad habit of not fearing his opponents, and thus only training
his power, not his endurance. When he took down Frazier in only two rounds, the world figured that he would go on to the end undefeated, since no one was tougher than Frazier.

JAB5239
08-03-2010, 05:35 PM
foreman could dent a ball of silly putty with his punch.

while a real punchers fist would bounce off.

Sucessfull puncher? yes. Hardest? not even top 10.


Im curious what 10 heavyweight you have punching harder than George, and why?

RINGG
08-03-2010, 10:37 PM
Of course he isn't. By some of the posts here I can tell he's underrated

Spartacus Sully
08-03-2010, 10:59 PM
[/B]

Im curious what 10 heavyweight you have punching harder than George, and why?

Like actual heavy weights? or just people who fought in the heavy weight divisision.

actaully i was more so refering to p4p. he might fall in the back 10 if its just heavy weights that actually weigh in at 205+.

sulivan, chyowniski, willard, fitzsimmons, jeffries, dempsey, marciano, barbados joe, louis, tunney, tyson all have better ko to tko records, all of them had a punch that would knock an opponent out and not just down.

JAB5239
08-03-2010, 11:48 PM
Like actual heavy weights? or just people who fought in the heavy weight divisision.

actaully i was more so refering to p4p. he might fall in the back 10 if its just heavy weights that actually weigh in at 205+.

sulivan, chyowniski, willard, fitzsimmons, jeffries, dempsey, marciano, barbados joe, louis, tunney, tyson all have better ko to tko records, all of them had a punch that would knock an opponent out and not just down.

As did Foreman.

With all due respect though you've got to be kidding with Willard, Walcott, Choynski and Tunney at heavyweight. and with all you have to compare who those ko's were against and when. I can accept arguments for Marciano, Dempsey, Louis and even Tyson. The rest do not compare in my opinion, at least at heavyweight.

Spartacus Sully
08-04-2010, 01:10 AM
With all due respect though you've got to be kidding with Willard, Walcott, Choynski and Tunney at heavyweight. and with all you have to compare who those ko's were against and when. I can accept arguments for Marciano, Dempsey, Louis and even Tyson. The rest do not compare in my opinion, at least at heavyweight.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Willard 23 wins 20 of them by ko 2 of them by tko though not many noteable names a 37 yo jack johnson being the best he definatly had some punching power.

walcott....allright fine P4p definalty higher then foreman though

choynski 37 ko's 37 ko's not one tko though most the time the ko's wernt against heavier men. p4p harder puncher but i guess not quite heavy weight.

tunney definatly harder p4p and possiably harder overall id say he definatly would have been more likely to ko ali. and norton fraizer chuvalo might not have gone as fast but they would have all been down for the 10, well maybe not chuvalo.

I can throw in tommy burns, tom sharky, max schmelling as well as harder hitters with more ko power then foreman

thinking about it i wouldnt even rate foreman in p4p top 20 hardest punchers.

Calilloyd
08-10-2010, 02:21 AM
Willard 23 wins 20 of them by ko 2 of them by tko though not many noteable names a 37 yo jack johnson being the best he definatly had some punching power.

walcott....allright fine P4p definalty higher then foreman though

choynski 37 ko's 37 ko's not one tko though most the time the ko's wernt against heavier men. p4p harder puncher but i guess not quite heavy weight.

tunney definatly harder p4p and possiably harder overall id say he definatly would have been more likely to ko ali. and norton fraizer chuvalo might not have gone as fast but they would have all been down for the 10, well maybe not chuvalo.

I can throw in tommy burns, tom sharky, max schmelling as well as harder hitters with more ko power then foreman



thinking about it i wouldnt even rate foreman in p4p top 20 hardest punchers.

LOL! I haven't read anything this stupid and absurd in a long time. If ever.

Spartacus Sully
08-10-2010, 02:24 AM
LOL! I haven't read anything this stupid and absurd in a long time. If ever.

It is what it is and if the only argument you pose against it is that its stupid and absurd then you win good sir for i must retreat in awe of your Master debater skills.

Calilloyd
08-10-2010, 02:54 AM
It is what it is and if the only argument you pose against it is that its stupid and absurd then you win good sir for i must retreat in awe of your Master debater skills.



You're right. I don't debate illogical post. It's a waste of time. If you were actually making valid and intelligent points I would consider it. That's not the case with you. Foreman "didn't really hurt or knockdown" Frazier he was just "spinning him?" "Lennox Lewis had very little punching power?". "Gene Tunney and Tommy Burns punched harder than Foreman?". Tunney would have most likely put Ali, Chuvalo, Norton, and Frazier down for a ten count?" Just some of your classic post. And you lied when said Foreman couldnt put fighters away for a 10 count with one punch. It is what it is good sir. Maybe you would like to watch Foreman "Spin" Frazier here lol.

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Spartacus Sully
08-10-2010, 03:02 AM
[/B]



You're right, I don't debate illogical post. It's a waste of time. If you were actually making valid and intelligent points I would consider it. That's not the case with you. Foreman "didn't really hurt or knockdown" Frazier he was just "spinning him?" "Lennox Lewis had very little punching power?". "Gene Tunney and Tommy Burns punched harder than Foreman?". Tunney would have most likely put Ali, Chuvalo, Norton, and Frazier down for a ten count?" Just some of your classic post. And you lied when said Foreman couldnt put fighters away for a 10 count with one punch. It is what it is good sir. Maybe you would like to watch Foreman "Spin" Frazier here lol.

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really i cant watch youtube videos while im at work and have to wait till i get home other wise i would have commented on your other post with the video.

and as i cant watch youtube videos so i dont quite recollect but im pretty sure norton was standing when the ref said 10 even though the ref counted him out, or atleast standing the moment after the ref said 10. take it as a ko if you will as most im sure will i just take it as evidence that even when they are down for the 10 count they are just confused and not in the least bit actually Knocked Out.

Calilloyd
08-10-2010, 03:13 AM
really i cant watch youtube videos while im at work and have to wait till i get home other wise i would have commented on your other post with the video.

and as i cant watch youtube videos so i dont quite recollect but im pretty sure norton was standing when the ref said 10 even though the ref counted him out, or atleast standing the moment after the ref said 10. take it as a ko if you will as most im sure will i just take it as evidence that even when they are down for the 10 count they are just confused and not in the least bit actually Knocked Out.




What happened with these guys at the end of the fight? And these are just examples.

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Spartacus Sully
08-10-2010, 03:22 AM
[/B]




What happened with these guys at the end of the fight? And these are just examples.

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cant watch youtube videos but he did put something like 28 people down for the 10, havnt seen the moore or lyle fights and unless those videos are them id say the other 26 kos came from mentally and physically weak opposition.

Spartacus Sully
08-10-2010, 07:59 AM
[/B]




What happened with these guys at the end of the fight? And these are just examples.

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Im sure i could put an exhausted lyle down for the count after landing 100 or so slaps to the face just like george.

cooney? so after holmes and spinks broke him a ko from foreman is supposed to be some kind of show of power? formans just luckly he caught him when the two masses were coming together after the 8 count drastically increasing his power in a counter like fashion.

moore? decent ko. 25 years and he finally gets a decent ko, though it wasnt hard hitting 1 hit ko power it was the set up of the left getting the head moving then the right stopping it while the brain kept going.

Calilloyd
08-10-2010, 12:34 PM
Im sure i could put an exhausted lyle down for the count after landing 100 or so slaps to the face just like george.

cooney? so after holmes and spinks broke him a ko from foreman is supposed to be some kind of show of power? formans just luckly he caught him when the two masses were coming together after the 8 count drastically increasing his power in a counter like fashion.

moore? decent ko. 25 years and he finally gets a decent ko, though it wasnt hard hitting 1 hit ko power it was the set up of the left getting the head moving then the right stopping it while the brain kept going.

I told you those are just examples. Foreman put plenty of fighters to sleep. And the question wasn't how it happened or who it happened to. You said all of Foreman's opponents were lucid after going down. A lie. If you think Norton was "OK" at the end of that fight you're lying. And you're delusional if you think you could have put Lyle down and out. But those "slaps" would have put you and "Ruby Rob" in a coma. And you never did comment on your ridiculous statements about Foreman not punching Frazier but "spinning" him. I don't blame you for avoiding that one.

Calilloyd
08-10-2010, 12:37 PM
[QUOTE=Ruby Robert;9010675]cant watch youtube videos but he did put something like 28 people down for the 10, havnt seen the moore or lyle fights and unless those videos are them id say the other 26 kos came from mentally and physically weak opposition.[QUOTE]

















Wait a minute....first you said he only put 20 to sleep.Then you said he never put anybody to sleep, and now you're saying 28. Make up your mind on which lie you want to use to discredit Foreman's power. And you have a lot of nerve critisizing Foremans opposition when you listed fighters like choynski and Williard as harder punchers. Foreman's resume makes both of theirs look like a joke.

Vadrigar.
08-10-2010, 01:00 PM
I told you those are just examples. Foreman put plenty of fighters to sleep. And the question wasn't how it happened or who it happened to. You said all of Foreman's opponents were lucid after going down. A lie. If you think Norton was "OK" at the end of that fight you're lying. And you're delusional if you think you could have put Lyle down and out. But those "slaps" would have put you and "Ruby Rob" in a coma. And you never did comment on your ridiculous statements about Foreman not punching Frazier but "spinning" him. I don't blame you for avoiding that one.

A good knockout highlight:

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Calilloyd
08-10-2010, 01:04 PM
A good knockout highlight:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SUxDro2LuUU&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SUxDro2LuUU&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>






Thanks for posting this. This "Ruby Red" thinks he's clever by claiming "Foreman couldn't punch". But it really makes him look like an idiot. It was nice to see Foreman "spinning Frazier" again. :lol1:

Vadrigar.
08-10-2010, 01:07 PM
Thanks for posting this. This "Ruby Red" thinks he's clever by claiming "Foreman couldn't punch". But it really makes him look like an idiot.

I had to laugh quite hard at the Frazier "spinning" comment. :rofl:

Spartacus Sully
08-10-2010, 01:07 PM
Wait a minute....first you said he only put 20 to sleep.Then you said he never put anybody to sleep, and now you're saying 28. Make up your mind on which lie you want to use to discredit Foreman's power. And you have a lot of nerve critisizing Foremans opposition when you listed fighters like choynski and Williard as harder punchers. How many HOF fighters did they knock out?

i just counted twice and got 40 tkos giving him 28 actual ko's perhaps you can quote where i said 20 as im almost positive i didnt so i dont really feel like looking for it.

as well i dont belive i said he didnt put any one down for the count but instead that he didnt have 1 hit ko power the kind that rattles the brain and makes people unconscious, you can check what that quote was too while your looking for where i said 20 when it was in fact 20 something or what i really think i said 28.

forgot the fraizer clip, just watched that. it looks like some are in slow mo then some are normal some he gets pushed down like the third one where hes bobbing up and just falls back and some where he gets hit like 6 or 7 times in slow mo. good technical skill some power not much gas average to slightly above average puncher.

Calilloyd
08-10-2010, 01:11 PM
i just counted twice and got 40 tkos giving him 28 actual ko's perhaps you can quote where i said 20 as im almost positive i didnt so i dont really feel like looking for it.

as well i dont belive i said he didnt put any one down for the count but instead that he didnt have 1 hit ko power the kind that rattles the brain and makes people unconscious, you can check what that quote was too while your looking for where i said 20 when it was in fact 20 something or what i really think i said 28.

forgot the fraizer clip, just watched that. it looks like some are in slow mo then some are normal some he gets pushed down like the third one where hes bobbing up and just falls back and some where he gets hit like 6 or 7 times in slow mo. good technical skill some power not much gas average to slightly above average puncher.

















Stop lying. Foreman was hitting Frazier. He wasn't "spinning him down" or "Pushing" him down. And you're delusional if you think other people can't see it.

Spartacus Sully
08-10-2010, 01:28 PM
Stop lying. Foreman was hitting Frazier. He wasn't "spinning him down" or "Pushing" him down. And you're delusional if you think other people can't see it.

id say the second kd and the slow motion series of blows leading up to it are the only decent ones landed leading up to actual brain ratteling mainly because he grabs joe on the arm and pulls him twords him as he throws a left then a nice right. the rest are like punching a punching bag in the direction of a swing mid swing. single blows that go with the bobbing that send him off balance and down.

the sixth ones also pretty decent after watching it a few more times.