View Full Version : The Perfect Boxer


GameGod
07-22-2010, 05:10 PM
Choosing the highest level boxer (P4P in his prime) for each of the below traits seperately, we can get an idea of who was the best at each different thing and who to mix to create the perfect boxer. I built the list up off various different websites; if you think I'm missing something just tell me and add it.

Consistency, Hard Training, Conditioning, Mental Game (meaning ), Game Planning () and Trainer Bonus ().
I've also added one Skill field: Longevity (how well they can maintain a high level of ability into their mid-to-late thirties).

I've also added one Extra field: PPV Buys (meaning how many PPV buys the fighter did compared over eras, so that inflation is compensated for in your analysis).

Tools:

Durability
Hand Speed
Foot Speed
Reflexes
Size & Build
Stamina
Athleticism
Overall Talent


Skills:

Head Movement
Body Movement
Footwork
Defense
Ring Generalship
Body Punching
Balance
Longevity
Use of Reach Advantage
Use of Height Advantage


Styles:

Boxing Ability (BOXING skills ***8211; people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker)
Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills ***8211; people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson)
Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills ***8211; people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan)
In-Fighting Ability
Mid-Range Ability
Long-Range Ability
Counterpunching Ability


Punching and Dodging:

Overall Strength
One-Punch Power
General Punch Power
Accuracy
Timing
Straightness of Punches
Variety of Offensive Arsenal
Dodging


Punches:

Left Hook
Right Hook
Left Cross
Right Cross
Left Straight
Right Straight
Left Uppercut
Right Uppercut
Left Jab
Right Jab
Overhand


Mental:

Mental Strength
Chin
Endurance
Heart
Desire
Killer Instinct
Work Rate
Intimidation
Consistency
Hard Training
Conditioning
Mental Game (how hard they think and strategize in the ring)
Game Planning (how good their game plans for each opponent are, and how well they stick to this plan)
Trainer Bonus (how well they listen to what their trainers have to say and adapt to that)


Media Extras:

Pre-Fight Mind Games
In-Fight Mind Games
Media Savvy
Charisma
PPV Buys


Status Extras:

Adversary
Trainer
Cutman
Manager


The last few wouldn't make much of a difference to fights but they can definitely help.

NChristo
07-22-2010, 05:24 PM
Going to hard to do but I'll give it a shot, especially doing it between all weight classes.
We don't know how the tools talents of lower weight classes would do at a higher and vice versa, e.g how does LaMotta's chin / Thomas Hearns power hold up at heavy ? or Meldrick Taylors speed at the lower weights, . Probably bad examples because LaMottas chin was great and Taylor's speed was phenomenal but I think you get the idea.

By Defense do you mean technique ?, because Head movement, Body movement and footwork all go into it.

Props for making this, would be interesting to see what people come out with.

THE REED™
07-22-2010, 05:26 PM
:)....................

GameGod
07-22-2010, 05:49 PM
Going to hard to do but I'll give it a shot, especially doing it between all weight classes.

It is probably hard to do, but just like P4P is possible to evaluate, so is the P4P level of every fighter in the different respective attributes.

We don't know how the tools talents of lower weight classes would do at a higher and vice versa, e.g how does LaMotta's chin / Thomas Hearns power hold up at heavy ? or Meldrick Taylors speed at the lower weights, . Probably bad examples because LaMottas chin was great and Taylor's speed was phenomenal but I think you get the idea.

Like I said, this is a P4P, Time-for-Time (i.e. making concessions for older fighters and evaluating as if they were all in the same era), Prime-for-Prime list. Therefore, we don't need to think about how Thomas Hearns' power would hold up at Heavyweight; on your list, if you think that Hearns is the most powerful puncher P4P of all time, just put him in for Punch Power.

By Defense do you mean technique ?, because Head movement, Body movement and footwork all go into it.

I mean overall defensive ability, not only technique. Me going into the head movement, body movement and footwork is just breaking it down further, because the best defensive boxer will probably not necessarily have the best footwork or movement.

Props for making this, would be interesting to see what people come out with.

Thanks, anytime. ;)

NChristo
07-22-2010, 06:32 PM
Thanks, made things clearer.

The other thing I noticed is on the punches section you only had cross and no straight or overhand.

The Cross is a counter punch that goes over the opponents jab, it's different from a straight or overhand punch, should add them as well.
That's all :boxing:

Sugarj
07-22-2010, 06:36 PM
Wow, a very tough and time consuming task:

I can see why you're called 'GameGod'. It seems to a very computer game like system of building the perfect boxer.......being based on attributes.

It isn't without merit though, nice idea.....you have covered alot!

That said I think it is easier to think of 'as close to perfection' as you can in certain ATG fighters and then tweak their styles, but this poses problems....for example:

Ray Robinson was pretty much great at everything. Handspeed, footspeed, accuracy, combination punching, punch power in either hand, all the punches in the book, he could fight aggressively or defensively, he had a terrific chin, durability, 15 round stamina, workrate, heart and career longevity.

BUT you're bound to find a trainer who would say that he should have kept his hands up rather than leaving the left low or that he could have been a touch more elusive....he certainly had the reflexes.

The problem is, you could say the perfect boxer would have been a copy of Ray with these extra tweaks...........However his jab may well have been less quick when fired from the head level or his combination work might of suffered. If he tried to be more elusive regarding the slipping of punches he might have shown a poorer workrate or have been less aggressive, this might have cost him some of his closer fights. So you get stuck based on a boxer's success with a given style.

This also works for many other pound for pound ATGs like Jones Jnr, Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Larry Holmes or Gene Tunney.


You could also ponder who is the most perfect boxer for each conventional style?

Peak a boo
Detroit
Southpaw
Open/unorthodox
Etc

For example, prime Mike Tyson was a terrific exponent of the peak a boo style, many trainers love to see this style perfected in the gym ( hands up before and after punching, slipping punches before countering, blocking what isn't slipped ). There are flaws in the style though, the exponents are cannon fodder for a good jab!

You cant even say that Mike was the pefect boxer for the peak a boo style......he was short for his weight and he didn't have a great reach. He did however make his lack of dimensions his advantage. So one disadvantage can be another's advantage.


Or the Detroit style, you could say 'give Tommy Hearns a superb chin and you have the perfect boxer' but it doesn't mean that a good pressure fighter might not have beaten him, prime Roberto Duran for example.

Building a perfect boxer is pretty much impossible, but there are plenty of ATGs with superb attributes, we should appreciate them for what they brought because the perfect boxer will never come along:

For every Robinson there is a LaMotta

For every Mosley there is a Forrest

For every Ali there is a Frazier

For every Chavez their is a Whitaker or Taylor

For every Leonard there is a Duran

For every Jones Jnr there is someone who will beat him when he is older, weight drained and is able to exploit his lack of basic fundamental skills like Tarver


Mayweather will be beaten soon enough too! A certain aggressive, high workrate southpaw might well be his stylistic nightmare!

GJC
07-22-2010, 06:38 PM
Tools:

Durability
George Chuvalo
Hand Speed
Foot Speed
Ali
Reflexes
Roy Jones Junior
Size & Build

Stamina
Marciano
Athleticism

Overall Talent
Sugar Ray Robinson


Skills:

Head Movement

Body Movement

Footwork
Jersey Joe Walcott
Defense
Willie Pep
Ring Generalship

Body Punching
Mike McCallum
Balance



Styles:

Boxing Ability (BOXING skills – people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker)
Whitaker
Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills – people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson)
Harry Greb
Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills – people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan)
In-Fighting Ability
Duran
Mid-Range Ability
Tyson
Long-Range Ability
Hearns
Counterpunching Ability

Hagler
Punching and Dodging:
Duran

Overall Strength
One-Punch Power
Shavers
General Punch Power
Langford
Accuracy
Louis
Timing
Straightness of Punches
Variety of Offensive Arsenal
Sugar Ray Robinson
Dodging

Nicolino Locche

Punches:

Left Hook
Right Hook
Left Cross
Right Cross
Uppercut
Jab


Mental:

Mental Strength
Chin
Chuvalo
Endurance
Heart
Desire
Killer Instinct
Dempsey
Work Rate
Marciano
Intimidation
Liston

Extras:

Pre-Fight Mind Games
Ali
In-Fight Mind Games
Media Savvy
Sugar Ray Leonard
Charisma
Ali

GJC
07-22-2010, 06:40 PM
Should have bolded above.
Threw a few names in there will work on the rest, if nothing else it gives a start to the arguments :)
Nice thread though

Southpaw Great
07-22-2010, 07:00 PM
Chin
Marvin Hagler

Hand Speed
Meldrick Taylor

Foot Speed
Ray Robinson

Reflexes
Roy Jones Jr

Size & Build
Sandy Saddler

Stamina
Stanley Ketchel

Athleticism
Roy Jones Jr

Overall Talent
Pernell Whitaker

Skills
Floyd Mayweather Jr

Head Movement
Henry Armstrong

Body Movement
Pernell Whitaker

Footwork
Cassius Clay


Defense
Pernell Whitaker

Ring Generalship
Ray Robinson

Body Punching
Julio Cesar Chavez

Balance
Ray Robinson

In-Fighting Ability
Julio Cesar Chavez


Mid-Range Ability
Ray Leonard

Long-Range Ability
Joe Louis

Counterpunching Ability
Floyd Mayweather Jr

Punching and Dodging
Roy Jones Jr

Overall Strength
Jake Lamotta

One-Punch Power
Sam Langford

General Punch Power
Ruben Olivares

Accuracy
Floyd Mayweather Jr

Timing
Joe Louis

Straightness of Punches
Alexis Arguello


Variety of Offensive Arsenal
Ray Robinson

Dodging
Pernell Whitaker

Mental Strength
Carlos Monzon

Endurance
George Cuvalo

Heart
Rocky Marciano

Desire
Rocky Marciano

Killer Instinct
Joe Louis

Work Rate
Henry Armstrong

Intimidation
Mike Tyson

Pre-Fight Mind Games
Muhammad Ali

In-Fight Mind Games
Muhammad Ali

Charisma
Ray Leonard

GameGod
07-23-2010, 08:30 AM
Thanks, made things clearer.

The other thing I noticed is on the punches section you only had cross and no straight or overhand.

The Cross is a counter punch that goes over the opponents jab, it's different from a straight or overhand punch, should add them as well.
That's all :boxing:

I'll add the overhand punch, thanks for the ideas and suggestions. However, in what way is a cross different from a straight?

Wow, a very tough and time consuming task:

I can see why you're called 'GameGod'. It seems to a very computer game like system of building the perfect boxer.......being based on attributes.

It isn't without merit though, nice idea.....you have covered alot!

That said I think it is easier to think of 'as close to perfection' as you can in certain ATG fighters and then tweak their styles, but this poses problems....for example:

Ray Robinson was pretty much great at everything. Handspeed, footspeed, accuracy, combination punching, punch power in either hand, all the punches in the book, he could fight aggressively or defensively, he had a terrific chin, durability, 15 round stamina, workrate, heart and career longevity.

BUT you're bound to find a trainer who would say that he should have kept his hands up rather than leaving the left low or that he could have been a touch more elusive....he certainly had the reflexes.

The problem is, you could say the perfect boxer would have been a copy of Ray with these extra tweaks...........However his jab may well have been less quick when fired from the head level or his combination work might of suffered. If he tried to be more elusive regarding the slipping of punches he might have shown a poorer workrate or have been less aggressive, this might have cost him some of his closer fights. So you get stuck based on a boxer's success with a given style.

This also works for many other pound for pound ATGs like Jones Jnr, Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Larry Holmes or Gene Tunney.


You could also ponder who is the most perfect boxer for each conventional style?

Peak a boo
Detroit
Southpaw
Open/unorthodox
Etc

For example, prime Mike Tyson was a terrific exponent of the peak a boo style, many trainers love to see this style perfected in the gym ( hands up before and after punching, slipping punches before countering, blocking what isn't slipped ). There are flaws in the style though, the exponents are cannon fodder for a good jab!

You cant even say that Mike was the pefect boxer for the peak a boo style......he was short for his weight and he didn't have a great reach. He did however make his lack of dimensions his advantage. So one disadvantage can be another's advantage.


Or the Detroit style, you could say 'give Tommy Hearns a superb chin and you have the perfect boxer' but it doesn't mean that a good pressure fighter might not have beaten him, prime Roberto Duran for example.

Building a perfect boxer is pretty much impossible, but there are plenty of ATGs with superb attributes, we should appreciate them for what they brought because the perfect boxer will never come along:

For every Robinson there is a LaMotta

For every Mosley there is a Forrest

For every Ali there is a Frazier

For every Chavez their is a Whitaker or Taylor

For every Leonard there is a Duran

For every Jones Jnr there is someone who will beat him when he is older, weight drained and is able to exploit his lack of basic fundamental skills like Tarver


Mayweather will be beaten soon enough too! A certain aggressive, high workrate southpaw might well be his stylistic nightmare!

This is all true, but I think you took the idea of building "The Perfect Boxer" a little too literally (yes, I realize that this is the title of the thread, but I meant something a bit different). What I meant was for you to select the people you think are the best of all time (Pound-for-Pound, Prime-for-Prime, Time-for-Time) in each of these fields, which would theoretically, if put together somehow, result in a perfect boxer. I am well aware that no-one will ever come along who combines all of these; that is obvious.

NChristo
07-23-2010, 08:40 AM
I'll add the overhand punch, thanks for the ideas and suggestions. However, in what way is a cross different from a straight?



Straight goes through your opponents guard or the most direct path to the head / body.

Cross is a counter which goes over the opponents lead hand / jab
(Left arm / shoulder or right arm / shoulder depending on if they're orthodox or southpaw).

SBleeder
07-23-2010, 09:46 AM
Straight goes through your opponents guard or the most direct path to the head / body.

Cross is a counter which goes over the opponents lead hand / jab
(Left arm / shoulder or right arm / shoulder depending on if they're orthodox or southpaw).

Good karma for you. Most people don't know the difference; I've even heard trainers use the terms interchangeably.

And I'll take Tommy Hearns for the straight right. Will add more later but need to go now.

Sugarj
07-23-2010, 05:00 PM
I'm with you Gamegod. I think given enough time then certain fighters will dominate in certain attributes if enough people reply:

I'll go with Tommy Hearns for the straight right too!

GameGod
07-23-2010, 08:19 PM
Straight goes through your opponents guard or the most direct path to the head / body.

Cross is a counter which goes over the opponents lead hand / jab
(Left arm / shoulder or right arm / shoulder depending on if they're orthodox or southpaw).

Thanks for clearing that up; I've added more punches to the list.

I'm with you Gamegod. I think given enough time then certain fighters will dominate in certain attributes if enough people reply:

I'll go with Tommy Hearns for the straight right too!

Thanks, and I think your choice for straight right is a fine one. Like you said, a core group of fighters will probably dominate each separate section.

NChristo
07-23-2010, 08:42 PM
Taking a while to do so I'll just post what I've got so far and edit as I go along, will probably change a few too.

Tools:

* Durability -Battling Nelson
* Hand Speed - Meldrick Taylor
* Foot Speed - Muhammad Ali
* Reflexes - Roy Jones Jr
* Size & Build -
* Stamina - Rocky Marciano
* Athleticism - Roy Jones Jr
* Overall Talent - Eder Jofre

Skills:

* Head Movement -
* Body Movement - Pernell Whitaker
* Footwork -
* Defense - Nicolino Locche
* Ring Generalship - Carlos Monzon
* Body Punching - Carlos Palomino
* Balance - Pernell Whitaker
* Longevity - Archie Moore
* Use of Reach Advantage - Tommy Hearns
* Use of Height Advantage -


Styles:

* Boxing Ability
* Swarming Ability - Joe Frazier
* Slugging Ability - George Foreman
* In-Fighting Ability - Roberto Duran
* Mid-Range Ability - Joe Louis
* Long-Range Ability - Thomas Hearns
* Counterpunching Ability - Wilfred Benitez


Punching and Dodging:

* Overall Strength -
* One-Punch Power - Julian Jackson
* General Punch Power -
* Accuracy - Joe Louis
* Timing -
* Straightness of Punches - Alexis Arguello
* Variety of Offensive Arsenal - Sugar Ray Robinson
* Dodging - Nicolino Locche


Punches:

* Left Hook - Joe Frazier
* Right Hook - Marvin Hagler
* Left Cross
* Right Cross
* Left Straight
* Right Straight - Tommy Hearns
* Overhand - Tim Witherspoon
* Uppercut - Riddick Bowe
* Jab - Sonny Liston


Mental:

* Mental Strength -
* Chin - Marvin Hagler
* Endurance -
* Heart - Joe Frazier
* Desire -
* Killer Instinct - Joe Louis
* Work Rate -
* Intimidation - Sonny Liston
* Consistency -
* Hard Training - Marvin Hagler
* Conditioning - Ken Norton
* Mental Game -
* Game Planning - Sugar Ray Leonard
* Trainer Bonus -


Extras:

* Pre-Fight Mind Games - Muhammad Ali
* In-Fight Mind Games - Jack Johnson
* Media Savvy - Chris Eubank (lol)
* Charisma - Sugar Ray Leonard
* PPV Buys - Muhammad Ali

BigStereotype
07-24-2010, 02:08 AM
I don't know enough about the older fighters (really before the 60's) to judge all time, but I'll do post-1960 for these ones.
Tools:

Durability: Marvin Hagler
Hand Speed: Meldrick Taylor
Foot Speed: Muhammad Ali
Reflexes: Roy Jones, Jr.
Size & Build: Juan Urango (Weird, I know, but he looks like a Light Heavyweight at Junior Welter)
Stamina: Julio Cesar Chavez
Athleticism: Roy Jones, Jr.
Overall Talent: Roy Jones, Jr.


Skills:

Head Movement: Pernell Whitaker
Body Movement: Pernell Whitaker
Footwork: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Defense: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Ring Generalship: Roberto Duran
Body Punching: Gerard McClellan
Balance: Manny Pacquiao


Styles:

Boxing Ability (BOXING skills ***8211; people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker): Floyd Mayweather
Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills ***8211; people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson): Mike Tyson (Honorable Mention: Manny Pacquiao)
Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills ***8211; people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan): George Foreman
In-Fighting Ability: Roberto Duran
Mid-Range Ability: Mike Tyson
Long-Range Ability: Muhammad Ali
Counterpunching Ability: Floyd Mayweather


Punching and Dodging:

Overall Strength: George Foreman
One-Punch Power: Julian Jackson
General Punch Power: Thomas Hearns
Accuracy: Felix Trinidad
Timing: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Straightness of Punches: Don't Know
Variety of Offensive Arsenal: Manny Pacquiao
Dodging: Pernell Whitaker


Mental:

Mental Strength: Julio Cesar Chavez
Chin: Marvin Hagler
Endurance: Antonio Margarito
Heart: Evander Holyfield
Desire: Julio Cesar Chavez
Killer Instinct: Roberto Duran
Work Rate: Antonio Margarito
Intimidation: Sonny Liston


Extras:

Pre-Fight Mind Games: Muhammad Ali
In-Fight Mind Games: Roy Jones, Jr.
Media Savvy: Sugar Ray Leonard
Charisma: Muhammad Ali

GameGod
07-24-2010, 05:21 PM
Taking a while to do so I'll just post what I've got so far and edit as I go along, will probably change a few too.

Tools:

* Durability -Battling Nelson
* Hand Speed - Meldrick Taylor
* Foot Speed - Muhammad Ali
* Reflexes - Roy Jones Jr
* Size & Build
* Stamina - Rocky Marciano
* Athleticism - Roy Jones Jr
* Overall Talent - Eder Jofre

Skills:

* Head Movement
* Body Movement - Pernell Whitaker
* Footwork
* Defense - Nicolino Locche
* Ring Generalship - Carlos Monzon
* Body Punching - Carlos Palomino
* Balance - Pernell Whitaker


Styles:

* Boxing Ability

* Swarming Ability - Joe Frazier
* Slugging Ability - George Foreman
* In-Fighting Ability - Roberto Duran
* Mid-Range Ability - Joe Louis
* Long-Range Ability - Thomas Hearns
* Counterpunching Ability - Wilfred Benitez


Punching and Dodging:

* Overall Strength -
* One-Punch Power - Julian Jackson
* General Punch Power -
* Accuracy - Joe Louis
* Timing -
* Straightness of Punches - Alexis Arguello
* Variety of Offensive Arsenal - Sugar Ray Robinson
* Dodging - Nicolino Locche


Punches:

* Left Hook - Joe Frazier
* Right Hook
* Left Cross
* Right Cross
* Left Straight
* Right Straight - Tommy Hearns
* Overhand - Tim Witherspoon
* Uppercut - Riddick Bowe
* Jab - Sonny Liston


Mental:

* Mental Strength
* Chin
* Endurance
* Heart - Joe Frazier
* Desire
* Killer Instinct - Joe Louis
* Work Rate
* Intimidation - Sonny Liston


Extras:

* Pre-Fight Mind Games - Muhammad Ali
* In-Fight Mind Games - Jack Johnson
* Media Savvy
* Charisma - Sugar Ray Leonard

Thanks, those are nice and complete answers which I would call solid.

I don't know enough about the older fighters (really before the 60's) to judge all time, but I'll do post-1960 for these ones.
Tools:

Durability: Marvin Hagler
Hand Speed: Meldrick Taylor
Foot Speed: Muhammad Ali
Reflexes: Roy Jones, Jr.
Size & Build: Juan Urango (Weird, I know, but he looks like a Light Heavyweight at Junior Welter)
Stamina: Julio Cesar Chavez
Athleticism: Roy Jones, Jr.
Overall Talent: Roy Jones, Jr.


Skills:

Head Movement: Pernell Whitaker
Body Movement: Pernell Whitaker
Footwork: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Defense: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Ring Generalship: Roberto Duran
Body Punching: Gerard McClellan
Balance: Manny Pacquiao


Styles:

Boxing Ability (BOXING skills – people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker): Floyd Mayweather
Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills – people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson): Mike Tyson (Honorable Mention: Manny Pacquiao)
Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills – people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan): George Foreman
In-Fighting Ability: Roberto Duran
Mid-Range Ability: Mike Tyson
Long-Range Ability: Muhammad Ali
Counterpunching Ability: Floyd Mayweather


Punching and Dodging:

Overall Strength: George Foreman
One-Punch Power: Julian Jackson
General Punch Power: Thomas Hearns
Accuracy: Felix Trinidad
Timing: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Straightness of Punches: Don't Know
Variety of Offensive Arsenal: Manny Pacquiao
Dodging: Pernell Whitaker


Mental:

Mental Strength: Julio Cesar Chavez
Chin: Marvin Hagler
Endurance: Antonio Margarito
Heart: Evander Holyfield
Desire: Julio Cesar Chavez
Killer Instinct: Roberto Duran
Work Rate: Antonio Margarito
Intimidation: Sonny Liston


Extras:

Pre-Fight Mind Games: Muhammad Ali
In-Fight Mind Games: Roy Jones, Jr.
Media Savvy: Sugar Ray Leonard
Charisma: Muhammad Ali


Thanks, you're the first person to give an answer for every category although you didn't attempt the seperate punch categories. For the Post-1960s era, these are solid choices, although mine date back to about 1920 (Dempsey and later); I don't really rate people before that because I believe that before that Boxing was genuinely evolving at a fast rate, while there has been less of that in the last 40 years or so. Therefore, Jack Johnson wouldn't stand a chance against modern-day Heavyweights, but Joe Louis could beat most or all of them.

$BloodyNate$
07-25-2010, 02:56 AM
Tools:
Durability: Sugar Ray Robinson
Hand Speed: Sugar ray Robinson
Foot Speed: Pernell Whitaker
Reflexes: Pernell Whitaker
Size & Build: Bernard Hopkins
Stamina: Joe Calzaghe
Athleticism: Floyd Mayweather
Overall Talent: Floyd Mayweather


Skills:
Head Movement: Pernell Whitaker
Body Movement: Pernell Whitaker
Footwork: Pernell Whitaker
Defense: Floyd Mayweather
Ring Generalship: Bernard Hopkins
Body Punching: Miguel Cotto
Balance: Pernell Whitaker


Styles:
Boxing Ability:Floyd Mayweather
Swarming Ability: Mike Tyson
Slugging Ability: Arturo Gatti
In-Fighting Ability: Joe Frazier
Mid-Range Ability: Ray Leonard
Long-Range Ability: Pernell Whitaker
Counterpunching Ability: Floyd Mayweather


Punching and Dodging:
Overall Strength: Ernie Shavers
One-Punch Power: Mike Tyson
General Punch Power: Mike Tyson
Accuracy: Floyd Mayweather
Timing: Bernard Hopkins
Straightness of Punches: Floyd Mayweather
Variety of Offensive Arsenal: Sugar Ray Robinson
Dodging: Pernell Whitake

Punches:
Left Hook: Joe Frazier
Right Hook: Mike Tyson
Right Cross: Bernard Hopkins
Right Straight: Tommy Hearns
Left Uppercut: Zab Judah
Right Uppercut: Riddick Bowe
Left Jab: Winky Wright
Right Jab: Sonny Liston

Mental:
Mental Strength: Muhammad Ali
Chin: Ali
Endurance: Ali
Heart: Joe Frazier
Desire:Miguel Cotto
Killer Instinct: Mike Tyson
Work Rate: Paul Williams
Intimidation: Mike Tyson

Extras:
Pre-Fight Mind Games: Muhammad Ali
In-Fight Mind Games: Pernell Whitaker
Media Savvy: Muhammad Ali
Charisma: Muhammad Ali

frankenfrank
07-25-2010, 04:05 AM
Tools:

Durability
H2H : McCall , P4P : Toney
Hand Speed
Roy Jones
Foot Speed
Manny Pacquiao
Reflexes
Roy Jones
Size & Build
Build : Jersey Joe Walcott , Frank Bruno , Evander Holyfield
Stamina
Muhammad Ali , Rocky Marciano , Larry Holmes
Athleticism
Roy Jones , Ray Leonard
Overall Talent
James Toney


Skills:

Head Movement
James Toney
Body Movement
James Toney
Footwork

Defense
Chris Byrd , Ronald Wright
Ring Generalship
Ali , Roy Jones
Body Punching
Vassily Jirov , Mike McCallum
Balance


Styles:

Boxing Ability (BOXING skills – people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker)
Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills – people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson)
Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills – people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan)
In-Fighting Ability
Hagler , Toney , Holyfield , Hopkins
Mid-Range Ability
Tyson , Tua
Long-Range Ability
Lewis , Hearns , Wladimir Klitschko
Counterpunching Ability
Roy Jones


Punching and Dodging:

Overall Strength
H2H : Foreman
One-Punch Power
H2H : Tua
P4P : Julian Jackson
General Punch Power
H2H : Foreman , Tua , Tyson ,
P4P : Pacquiao , Hagler , Jackson ,
Accuracy
Toney , Montell Griffin
Timing
Roy Jones
Straightness of Punches
H2H :Vitali , Wladimir , Lewis , Ali , Holmes ,
P4P : Toney , Griffin , Qawi , Shavers
Variety of Offensive Arsenal
Tyson , Toney , Bowe
Dodging
Toney , Byrd , Orlin Norris (I haven't seen Whitaker , Locche and Floyd fight yet , but also remember that while Norris and Byrd avoided big opponents' which may not have been fast , they were much heavier themselves than the
expected choice for a defensive wizard)


Punches:

Left Hook
Tua
Right Hook
Left Cross
Right Cross
Toney
Left Straight
Right Straight
Shavers
Left Uppercut
Right Uppercut
Lewis , Bowe , Tyson
Left Jab
H2H : Vitali Klitschko , Wladimir Klitschko , Lewis , Holmes , Ali
P4P : Toney , McCallum , Griffin
Right Jab
Wright
Overhand
Toney


Mental:

Mental Strength
Holyfield , Toney
Chin
McCall , Toney
Endurance
Ali
Heart
Holyfield , Toney
Desire
Holyfield
Killer Instinct
Tyson , Foreman
Work Rate
Frazier
Intimidation
Foreman , Tyson


Extras: Sylvester Stalone by far :yep:

Pre-Fight Mind Games
In-Fight Mind Games
Media Savvy
Charisma


The last few wouldn't make much of a difference to fights but they can definitely help.

GameGod
07-25-2010, 08:05 AM
I've just added 6 Mental fields: Consistency, Hard Training, Conditioning, Mental Game (meaning how hard they think and strategize in the ring), Game Planning (how good their game plans for each opponent are, and how well they stick to this plan) and Trainer Bonus (how well they listen to what their trainers have to say and adapt to that).
I've also added 3 Skill fields: Longevity (how well they can maintain a high level of ability into their mid-to-late thirties), Use of Reach Advantage and Use of Height Advantage.

I've also added one Extra field: PPV Buys (meaning how many PPV buys the fighter did compared over eras, so that inflation is compensated for in your analysis).

What do you guys think of me adding fields outside the fighter's immediate control but which do effect their careers and statuses, such as Adversary (who the fighters' great opponents, which help them define their greatness, are - e.g. for Ali, there was Frazier and Foreman; just give the one fighter of all-time P4P who you would call the best "adversary" and put him here), Trainer (the best trainer of all-time), etc.? I would add these if you said they were good ideas.

Tools:

Durability
H2H : McCall , P4P : Toney
Hand Speed
Roy Jones
Foot Speed
Manny Pacquiao
Reflexes
Roy Jones
Size & Build
Build : Jersey Joe Walcott , Frank Bruno , Evander Holyfield
Stamina
Muhammad Ali , Rocky Marciano , Larry Holmes
Athleticism
Roy Jones , Ray Leonard
Overall Talent
James Toney


Skills:

Head Movement
James Toney
Body Movement
James Toney
Footwork

Defense
Chris Byrd , Ronald Wright
Ring Generalship
Ali , Roy Jones
Body Punching
Vassily Jirov , Mike McCallum
Balance


Styles:

Boxing Ability (BOXING skills ***8211; people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker)
Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills ***8211; people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson)
Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills ***8211; people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan)
In-Fighting Ability
Hagler , Toney , Holyfield , Hopkins
Mid-Range Ability
Tyson , Tua
Long-Range Ability
Lewis , Hearns , Wladimir Klitschko
Counterpunching Ability
Roy Jones


Punching and Dodging:

Overall Strength
H2H : Foreman
One-Punch Power
H2H : Tua
P4P : Julian Jackson
General Punch Power
H2H : Foreman , Tua , Tyson ,
P4P : Pacquiao , Hagler , Jackson ,
Accuracy
Toney , Montell Griffin
Timing
Roy Jones
Straightness of Punches
H2H :Vitali , Wladimir , Lewis , Ali , Holmes ,
P4P : Toney , Griffin , Qawi , Shavers
Variety of Offensive Arsenal
Tyson , Toney , Bowe
Dodging
Toney , Byrd , Orlin Norris (I haven't seen Whitaker , Locche and Floyd fight yet , but also remember that while Norris and Byrd avoided big opponents' which may not have been fast , they were much heavier themselves than the
expected choice for a defensive wizard)


Punches:

Left Hook
Tua
Right Hook
Left Cross
Right Cross
Toney
Left Straight
Right Straight
Shavers
Left Uppercut
Right Uppercut
Lewis , Bowe , Tyson
Left Jab
H2H : Vitali Klitschko , Wladimir Klitschko , Lewis , Holmes , Ali
P4P : Toney , McCallum , Griffin
Right Jab
Wright
Overhand
Toney


Mental:

Mental Strength
Holyfield , Toney
Chin
McCall , Toney
Endurance
Ali
Heart
Holyfield , Toney
Desire
Holyfield
Killer Instinct
Tyson , Foreman
Work Rate
Frazier
Intimidation
Foreman , Tyson


Extras: Sylvester Stalone by far :yep:

Pre-Fight Mind Games
In-Fight Mind Games
Media Savvy
Charisma


The last few wouldn't make much of a difference to fights but they can definitely help.

For the Extras, I meant for boxers, not for film-makers. ;)
Also, what difference does Head-to-Head make? What does that even mean in the context of this?
Oh, wait; if Head-to-Head means in terms of raw ability (not Pound-for-Pound), then I think I should just clarify that we're looking for the top Pound-for-Pound in each category, not Head-to-Head (if this is the meaning of H2H).

NChristo
07-25-2010, 09:26 AM
Taking a while to do so I'll just post what I've got so far and edit as I go along, will probably change a few too.

Tools:

* Durability -Battling Nelson
* Hand Speed - Meldrick Taylor
* Foot Speed - Muhammad Ali
* Reflexes - Roy Jones Jr
* Size & Build -
* Stamina - Rocky Marciano
* Athleticism - Roy Jones Jr
* Overall Talent - Eder Jofre

Skills:

* Head Movement -
* Body Movement - Pernell Whitaker
* Footwork -
* Defense - Nicolino Locche
* Ring Generalship - Carlos Monzon
* Body Punching - Carlos Palomino
* Balance - Pernell Whitaker
* Longevity - Archie Moore
* Use of Reach Advantage - Tommy Hearns
* Use of Height Advantage -


Styles:

* Boxing Ability
* Swarming Ability - Joe Frazier
* Slugging Ability - George Foreman
* In-Fighting Ability - Roberto Duran
* Mid-Range Ability - Joe Louis
* Long-Range Ability - Thomas Hearns
* Counterpunching Ability - Wilfred Benitez


Punching and Dodging:

* Overall Strength -
* One-Punch Power - Julian Jackson
* General Punch Power -
* Accuracy - Joe Louis
* Timing -
* Straightness of Punches - Alexis Arguello
* Variety of Offensive Arsenal - Sugar Ray Robinson
* Dodging - Nicolino Locche


Punches:

* Left Hook - Joe Frazier
* Right Hook - Marvin Hagler
* Left Cross
* Right Cross
* Left Straight
* Right Straight - Tommy Hearns
* Overhand - Tim Witherspoon
* Uppercut - Riddick Bowe
* Jab - Sonny Liston


Mental:

* Mental Strength -
* Chin - Marvin Hagler
* Endurance -
* Heart - Joe Frazier
* Desire -
* Killer Instinct - Joe Louis
* Work Rate -
* Intimidation - Sonny Liston
* Consistency -
* Hard Training - Marvin Hagler
* Conditioning - Ken Norton
* Mental Game -
* Game Planning - Sugar Ray Leonard
* Trainer Bonus -


Extras:

* Pre-Fight Mind Games - Muhammad Ali
* In-Fight Mind Games - Jack Johnson
* Media Savvy - Chris Eubank (lol)
* Charisma - Sugar Ray Leonard

* PPV Buys - Muhammad Ali

Edited :boxing:.
Added a few names + your new options.

GameGod
07-25-2010, 06:27 PM
Edited :boxing:.
Added a few names + your new options.

Thanks. Just to mention, my new options were actually mostly "Mental" ones, but which category you have them in doesn't really matter. Anyway, thanks again for adding the new names. :boxing:

For Use of Reach Advantage, I would really have to go with Paul Williams (although Hearns is your choice). With normal-sized arms, it is my belief that Williams would be a street bum who had once tried professional boxing, got KO'ed in 1 round and ended up with a record of 2 wins (0 KOs) and 16 losses (14 KOs) against debutants and fellow bums. It is simply because of his freakishly long arms that he can dominate: if you watch him, you will see that he doesn't really have good speed, he has below average power, and no skill at all. Yet he is a highly effective Junior Middleweight ...

Of course, your names and choices are good as well. I'm sure that, as different people, we would differ on many of them (but also agree on many); that one just happened to catch my eye when I was looking at the new categories.

Also, what do you think of me adding fields outside the fighter's immediate control but which do effect their careers and statuses, such as Adversary (who the fighters' great opponents, which help them define their greatness, are - e.g. for Ali, there was Frazier and Foreman; just give the one fighter of all-time P4P who you would call the best "adversary" and put him here), Trainer (the best trainer of all-time), etc.?

NChristo
07-25-2010, 06:35 PM
For Use of Reach Advantage, I would really have to go with Paul Williams (although Hearns is your choice). With normal-sized arms, it is my belief that Williams would be a street bum who had once tried professional boxing, got KO'ed in 1 round and ended up with a record of 2 wins (0 KOs) and 16 losses (14 KOs) against debutants and fellow bums. It is simply because of his freakishly long arms that he can dominate: if you watch him, you will see that he doesn't really have good speed, he has below average power, and no skill at all. Yet he is a highly effective Junior Middleweight ...





I have to strongly disagree here, I don't think Williams uses his height to his advantage at all, one of the reasons I chose Hearns is because of the display he put on against Duran who is one of the best in fighters of all time, he controlled him and kept him at a comfortable distance untill that brutal k.o, Williams is happy to let people on his inside which puts his reach at a disadvantage, he's far too wild and it doesn't work for his reach at all imo.



Also, what do you think of me adding fields outside the fighter's immediate control but which do effect their careers and statuses, such as Adversary (who the fighters' great opponents, which help them define their greatness, are - e.g. for Ali, there was Frazier and Foreman; just give the one fighter of all-time P4P who you would call the best "adversary" and put him here), Trainer (the best trainer of all-time), etc.?

Sure, the more the merrier I suppose. :boxing:


I've corrected the order of options so it's not so confusing :P.

GameGod
07-26-2010, 12:27 PM
I have to strongly disagree here, I don't think Williams uses his height to his advantage at all, one of the reasons I chose Hearns is because of the display he put on against Duran who is one of the best in fighters of all time, he controlled him and kept him at a comfortable distance untill that brutal k.o, Williams is happy to let people on his inside which puts his reach at a disadvantage, he's far too wild and it doesn't work for his reach at all imo.

OK, I suppose when it comes to specific categories you will have your opinions and I will have mine - no people will ever get perfect matches. My choices would just be in my opinion - I'm not trying to spread them as gospel truth, everyone has their own opinions. :boxing:

Sure, the more the merrier I suppose. :boxing:


I've corrected the order of options so it's not so confusing :P.

Thanks for correcting the options, and I'll go and add those extra categories. ;)

BigStereotype
07-27-2010, 08:55 PM
Thanks, you're the first person to give an answer for every category although you didn't attempt the seperate punch categories. For the Post-1960s era, these are solid choices, although mine date back to about 1920 (Dempsey and later); I don't really rate people before that because I believe that before that Boxing was genuinely evolving at a fast rate, while there has been less of that in the last 40 years or so. Therefore, Jack Johnson wouldn't stand a chance against modern-day Heavyweights, but Joe Louis could beat most or all of them.

I think boxing was advancing too quickly technically before maybe 1940 to really judge those fighters their modern-day counterparts. It's a different cut-off point, but the same idea. Any specific categories where you guys disagree?

NChristo
07-27-2010, 09:05 PM
I think boxing was advancing too quickly technically before maybe 1940 to really judge those fighters their modern-day counterparts. It's a different cut-off point, but the same idea. Any specific categories where you guys disagree?

Durability and In-fight mind games are the only ones where I chose someone pre-1940, the main reasons being that Battling Nelson went 42 rounds with Joe Gans after getting his ass handed to him the whole fight and even after getting knocked down three times early (8th and 15th round I think, can't remember the 3rd will have to look it up) + it was in searing heat in excess of 100 degrees. He was bleeding out of every place possible yet never gave up on his assault.
(Reportedly started bleeding out his ears in round 2)
I don't see any boxer doing that again, seems inhuman.

Jack Johnson for in-fight mind games should speak for itself.

BigStereotype
07-28-2010, 04:29 PM
Yeah, that's the only spot where I'd probably give an edge to an earlier-era fighter. Those guys were ****ing tough.

TheMagicMan
07-28-2010, 06:15 PM
joe calzaghe...next question.