View Full Version : Sugar Ray Leonard VS Roberto Duran(P4P All Time Great)


Killer Angel
07-21-2010, 05:29 AM
Who would you rank higher as an All Time Great(P4P)between Sugar Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran?
Thanks.

Vadrigar.
07-21-2010, 05:30 AM
For me it's Sugar Ray leonard.

Megamasterking
07-21-2010, 06:55 AM
SRL ! But Duran is not far behind, Duran vs Leonard is the first fight that i clearly remember and Duran was at is best during that fight giving painful hits to Leonard who had never felt so much pain from every punch in a fight. Duran won the fight but SRL learned a lot from it.

NChristo
07-21-2010, 08:30 AM
Roberto Duran imo he's a top 10 ATG and Leonard is top 15.

wmute
07-21-2010, 09:57 AM
Obviously Duran

Barn
08-11-2010, 08:16 AM
Roberto Duran for me.
More wins, won when both were at prime physically and technically.
As a previous poster said Duran top 10 Leonard top 15.

BennyST
08-11-2010, 09:37 AM
Who would you rank higher as an All Time Great(P4P)between Sugar Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran?
Thanks.

Check out the search button mate. All the guys here have discussed this topic a thousand times over and there are many long threads on it. Some interesting and others that degenerate into typical internet chaos.

Duran top 10 somewhere, Leonard top 15/20 somewhere.

Ziggy Stardust
08-11-2010, 09:42 AM
Duran. Utterly dominant at Lightweight.

Poet

nachorjj
08-11-2010, 09:43 AM
Sugar Ray Leonard

boxing boy
08-11-2010, 04:08 PM
Roberto Duran.I rank Duran the 3rd best fighter p4p of all-time.

GJC
08-11-2010, 04:28 PM
Duran. Utterly dominant at Lightweight.

Poet
That what tips it to Duran for me. Both are top 20 p4p though.
As impressive as skipping up weights (which both did) is I think a dominant reign at a weight is important too. I will concede that Leonard was unlucky and might well have dominated at welter between 82 and 87

War Dinamita
08-11-2010, 04:31 PM
Duran.

The only reason why he lost the rematch with SRL was because he was fat, out of shape, and got lazy in between fights.

Tyson.
08-11-2010, 04:37 PM
1. SRR
2. Ali
3. SRL

Only Ali and SRR rank higher than him ATG wise.

cooper5
08-11-2010, 04:49 PM
I lean towards Duran but I believe if Leonard was not sidelined with eye injuries he could have reached a higher ranking.

mrboxer
08-11-2010, 04:59 PM
Who would you rank higher as an All Time Great(P4P)between Sugar Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran?
Thanks.ray leonard is an all time great but duran in my opinion is not,duran won the title against ken with a below the belt shot,duran beat leonard with a controversial decision that leonard had clearly won,in the second fight duran quit against leonard with the famous no mas quote,he got schooled against benitez,he got pummeled against hearns,and got out punched against hagler,i will give him credit for beating moore and the clumsy barkley for titles,duran was a good fighter not an all time great:boxing:

BigStereotype
08-11-2010, 05:06 PM
Duran because of his insane dominance at lightweight.

ray leonard is an all time great but duran in my opinion is not,duran won the title against ken with a below the belt shot,duran beat leonard with a controversial decision that leonard had clearly won,in the second fight duran quit against leonard with the famous no mas quote,he got schooled against benitez,he got pummeled against hearns,and got out punched against hagler,i will give him credit for beating moore and the clumsy barkley for titles,duran was a good fighter not an all time great:boxing:

http://www.deuceofdavenport.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/chappelle-player-haters-ball.jpg

NChristo
08-11-2010, 05:14 PM
ray leonard is an all time great but duran in my opinion is not,duran won the title against ken with a below the belt shot,duran beat leonard with a controversial decision that leonard had clearly won,in the second fight duran quit against leonard with the famous no mas quote,he got schooled against benitez,he got pummeled against hearns,and got out punched against hagler,i will give him credit for beating moore and the clumsy barkley for titles,duran was a good fighter not an all time great:boxing:

You serious ?, Leonard - Duran I was not controversial at all, Duran won it and you're dismissing Duran's reign at Lightweight because he low blowed Buchanan ?.

Duran because of his insane dominance at lightweight.



http://www.deuceofdavenport.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/chappelle-player-haters-ball.jpg

Indeed, never seen someone say that Duran isn't an ATG and just dismiss his reign.

Ziggy Stardust
08-11-2010, 05:20 PM
You serious ?, Leonard - Duran I was not controversial at all, Duran won it and you're dismissing Duran's reign at Lightweight because he low blowed Buchanan ?.

Indeed, never seen someone say that Duran isn't an ATG and just dismiss his reign.

He's a troll.....he just posts that sort of thing for attention :)

Poet

prinzemanspopa
08-11-2010, 07:29 PM
Duran.

The only reason why he lost the rematch with SRL was because he was fat, out of shape, and got lazy in between fights.





Take your ridiculous,ignorant views back to the hip hop forums with the rest of your kind.There really is nothing more embarrassing than reading some clueless newb attempting to offer his own argument in a topic that he has absolutely no idea about.



Your post count may go up,but your own understanding of this sport and it's history only diminishes in the eyes of those who actually know what the f*ck they're talking about.



Stick to "Money May" and "DA PACMAN" in future,and leave such discussions to the true fans of this sport.

HaglerSteelChin
08-11-2010, 07:59 PM
To question if Duran is a ATG is laughable. Duran started as a superbantam and if he fought today would have collected paper titles in the lower divisions. He beat Marcel by TKO who later would be Featherweight champion. In his 8th division he fought hagler to a 15 round decision that two judges seperated by one point. Important to note, he is the only man to even remain standing in the 12 title defenses of Hagler; as hagler knocked every man out in 12 title defenses except Duran.

If you go by influence, there is a generation of fighters that name Duran as their influence. I don't put him top 10 P4P, but around 20, and SRL slighty higher. As BennyST, mentioned the thread is arleady discussed at length before.

CarlosG815
08-11-2010, 08:11 PM
Take your ridiculous,ignorant views back to the hip hop forums with the rest of your kind.There really is nothing more embarrassing than reading some clueless newb attempting to offer his own argument in a topic that he has absolutely no idea about.



Your post count may go up,but your own understanding of this sport and it's history only diminishes in the eyes of those who actually know what the f*ck they're talking about.



Stick to "Money May" and "DA PACMAN" in future,and leave such discussions to the true fans of this sport.

If I recall correctly, Duran dominated Ray Leonard in the first fight, leaving him lost in the ring with no way to slow Duran down. Leonard said after that fight that Duran was the toughest guy he ever fought and punched like a man possessed by the devil.

He also admitted that for the rematch he took note of Duran's "inbetween fight" habits such as not training and eating poorly and putting on as much as 30-50 pounds. Duran took the fight on fairly short notice and was so exhausted from having to drop so much weight that he was outworked by the faster, better conditioned Leonard. IMO Leonard would not beat Duran when Duran is at his best at 135-147 and his poor habits inbetween fights set him at a disadvantage and that was not the best.

At 160 Duran had little KO power and that fight shouldn't be used to judge who is greater of the two.

prinzemanspopa
08-11-2010, 08:41 PM
If I recall correctly.......



.....You claimed Muhammad Ali beat George Foreman in Zaire using "footwork".Yes, we already knew about that hilarious blunder.It's the primary reason why your opinion can never be taken seriously after that gaffe.




The problem with you,and all the other newbs that join in these type of discussions, is that you're so painfully ignorant on the topic in hand that it's almost humiliating to have to correct you.



Duran had already verbally agreed on a rematch with Leonard and his team three and a half months prior to their eventual rematch with Leonard.He was fit,in-shape,just five months removed from the single greatest win of career and still in his prime.




Leonard did beat the best version of Duran.....and did it more convincingly than Duran ever managed against him.Save the "dominated him" crap for the Duran apologists.

JAB5239
08-11-2010, 08:56 PM
Leonard did beat the best version of Duran.....and did it more convincingly than Duran ever managed against him.Save the "dominated him" crap for the Duran apologists.

How was this the "best" version of Duran?

CarlosG815
08-11-2010, 09:32 PM
How was this the "best" version of Duran?

The dude is a complete clown.

BigStereotype
08-11-2010, 09:35 PM
How was this the "best" version of Duran?

I am fairly certain that there is no objective way that it could be argued. Leonard beat him fair and square, but Duran was NOT at his best for that fight.

prinzemanspopa
08-12-2010, 03:27 AM
How was this the "best" version of Duran?



Duran was at no greater stage in his career than than he was going into the rematch with Leonard.He was regarded by virtually every credible source within the sport as the very best fighter on the planet.He hadn't been defeated in eight years,was coming off a career deining performance over what was then,and arguably still is,the greatest fighter he ever fought.He had shown absolutely no signs of slipping up and despite not scoring as many knockouts as he had in his lightweight days,still retained the type of power that commanded the respect of his opponents.



Duran was in his prime and the same fighter going into New Orleans as he was in Montreal.Rather than look at what Duran couldn't do,why not look at how Leonard adjusted and never even gave Duran a chance.Why not credit Leonard for the brilliant footwork that he showed rather than how slow and sluggish Duran looked(guess who made him look like that?).



There's a reason Duran wasn't capable of pulling off the type of performance that he had given in five months previous,and it wasn't because of an upset tummy.

wmute
08-12-2010, 08:17 AM
Duran was at no greater stage in his career than than he was going into the rematch with Leonard.He was regarded by virtually every credible source within the sport as the very best fighter on the planet.He hadn't been defeated in eight years,was coming off a career deining performance over what was then,and arguably still is,the greatest fighter he ever fought.He had shown absolutely no signs of slipping up and despite not scoring as many knockouts as he had in his lightweight days,still retained the type of power that commanded the respect of his opponents.



Duran was in his prime and the same fighter going into New Orleans as he was in Montreal.Rather than look at what Duran couldn't do,why not look at how Leonard adjusted and never even gave Duran a chance.Why not credit Leonard for the brilliant footwork that he showed rather than how slow and sluggish Duran looked(guess who made him look like that?).



There's a reason Duran wasn't capable of pulling off the type of performance that he had given in five months previous,and it wasn't because of an upset tummy.

Isn't it weird that not even Leonard claims that?

CarlosG815
08-12-2010, 08:36 AM
Isn't it weird that not even Leonard claims that?

Exactly. Prinze shows once again why he's an idiot.

Skip to 1:25 Leonard himself backs up our story and once again poppa is speaking straight from his ass.

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prinzemanspopa
08-12-2010, 08:56 AM
Isn't it weird that not even Leonard claims that?




What's even more weird is how Ray Leonard suddenly became the sole authoritative opinion on this topic.Even more weird that Duran apologist would think that.Then again,it suits your own agenda,doesn't it?




Now before you unleash another witty response in my direction,do tell me: What reason would I have to believe Duran wasn't in his prime going into the rematch? Where in the three and a half months that Duran had to prepare did he "slip up"?



Quitters and frontrunners can be exposed in the harshest of manners....As Duran found out.




Exactly. Prinze shows once again why he's an idiot.



You never do learn,do you?


believe it or not,articles and sources of the actual time that we're talking about mean a hell of alot more than some retrospective documentary slanted in a quitters favour.




Now go ahead and tell us which rounds Ali danced his way to victory of George Foreman.

CarlosG815
08-12-2010, 09:12 AM
What's even more weird is how Ray Leonard suddenly became the sole authoritative opinion on this topic.Even more weird that Duran apologist would think that.Then again,it suits your own agenda,doesn't it?




Now before you unleash another witty response in my direction,do tell me: What reason would I have to believe Duran wasn't in his prime going into the rematch? Where in the three and a half months that Duran had to prepare did he "slip up"?



Quitters and frontrunners can be exposed in the harshest of manners....As Duran found out.








You never do learn,do you?


believe it or not,articles and sources of the actual time that we're talking about mean a hell of alot more than some retrospective documentary slanted in a quitters favour.




Now go ahead and tell us which rounds Ali danced his way to victory of George Foreman.

For all the typing you do, there is no substance to anything in your posts.

Go ahead and tall us how Roberto was the same fighter in New Orleans as he was in Montreal. This time have some context in your post, not just a bunch of quips to try and hide that fact that you have no idea what you're talking about, while you try to sneak your point into one sentence.

You really are the worst kind of troll. Just make your point and STFU.

prinzemanspopa
08-12-2010, 09:22 AM
Go ahead and tall us how Roberto was the same fighter in New Orleans as he was in Montreal.




Look up a few posts,Einstein....I already did.Or perhaps you avoided that,much like you have avoided my references to your hilarious and ignorant description of one of the most famous sporting events of the last century.A fight in which even the most ordinary of casual viewer wouldn't struggle to describe the famous tactic used that night.



Unlike you,Carly...I've seen more than two Duran fights.

CarlosG815
08-12-2010, 09:34 AM
Look up a few posts,Einstein....I already did.Or perhaps you avoided that,much like you have avoided my references to your hilarious and ignorant description of one of the most famous sporting events of the last century.A fight in which even the most ordinary of casual viewer wouldn't struggle to describe the famous tactic used that night.



Unlike you,Carly...I've seen more than two Duran fights.

:sleeping:

You're getting very repetitive and boring. Please explain in detail how he was the same fighter. It's obvious you have the time, as you just posted an entire paragraph and the only sentence that was relevant was the 3 words "I already did."

And now you assume how many Duran fights I've seen. I do find it amusing how you pretend you're the only person that watches boxing and has seen many fights, yet you have never once contributed anything to any thread that I've ever seen, and I've never seen a single post where you display having any boxing knowledge. For crying out loud, you have the Great Joe Frazier in your avatar running from George Foreman. What kind of idiot does that and slanders a great like Frazier all over a boxing forum at every opportunity? That's how stupid you are and is why nobody takes you seriously and you are a well known troll across the board.

mrboxer
08-12-2010, 09:52 AM
when duran reigned at lightweight who was really in the division,is was pretty much watered down,:boxing:

prinzemanspopa
08-12-2010, 10:17 AM
You're getting very repetitive and boring.



Continually asking me to explain something that I've already explain over and over again is "very repetitive and boring".


A failure to "display having any boxing knowledge" is claiming that Muhammad Ali beat George Foreman using "footwork".That is a gaffe for any casual sports fan,let alone for someone who claims to be a boxing fan.



You've done enough to soil this topic as it is,no need to involve Smokin' Joke Frazier into this discussion.Although It's an obvious attempt at changing the subject,it's still unnecessary.

mrboxer
08-12-2010, 10:22 AM
alis footwork had a lot to do with the fantastic display ala rope a dope against foreman:boxing:

wmute
08-12-2010, 11:25 AM
What's even more weird is how Ray Leonard suddenly became the sole authoritative opinion on this topic.Even more weird that Duran apologist would think that.Then again,it suits your own agenda,doesn't it?


Now before you unleash another witty response in my direction,do tell me: What reason would I have to believe Duran wasn't in his prime going into the rematch? Where in the three and a half months that Duran had to prepare did he "slip up"?


Quitters and frontrunners can be exposed in the harshest of manners....As Duran found out.



My agenda... sure... I have an agenda to develop on a boxing forum... right...

Leonard seems a pretty authoritative opinion to me. You think I should rather listen to you instead? :rofl:

prinzemanspopa
08-12-2010, 11:48 AM
My agenda... sure... I have an agenda to develop on a boxing forum... right...

Leonard seems a pretty authoritative opinion to me. You think I should rather listen to you instead? :rofl:



Ah,sarcasm....Who knew that a Duran apologist possessed such wit.


Seems to me that you're too slow and narrow-minded to think outside the apologist box.Perhaps listening to me might do you good.You never knows....It may teach you to respond to a post with a half-decent argument.



Now,answer the question,boy: "What reason would I have to believe Duran wasn't in his prime going into the rematch?"

mrboxer
08-12-2010, 11:51 AM
you guys should get back on topic,both of your posts make little sense,ltyr reading my posts on this and yo will get a clearer picture on this very talked about debate that has many different opinions:boxing:

wmute
08-12-2010, 11:57 AM
Ah,sarcasm....Who knew that a Duran apologist possessed such wit.


Seems to me that you're too slow and narrow-minded to think outside the apologist box.Perhaps listening to me might do you good.You never knows....It may teach you to respond to a post with a half-decent argument.



Now,answer the question,boy: "What reason would I have to believe Duran wasn't in his prime going into the rematch?"

Those mentioned by the man who had most gain by them, son.

prinzemanspopa
08-12-2010, 12:20 PM
Those mentioned by the man who had most gain by them, son.



And now we've gradually worked our way down to a sentence.Honestly,this is the voice of the Duran apologist? Good lord.Once upon a time they atleast put up a fight,not some botched one-liners.




You didn't answer my question,either.How does Duran suddenly become past prime,despite showing absolutely no signs of slipping up,and having just beat the best fighter he ever fought?


Duran gaining weight in-between fights is irrelevant,as he,like many other fighters,often gained weight in-between bouts and worked his way back down to his fighting weight.It certainly didn't effect his performances in the past,so why should it have done so just five months after a career definining win,in which he had three and a half months preparation for?



Try and grow a chest hair for this one,laddy....

wmute
08-12-2010, 03:56 PM
And now we've gradually worked our way down to a sentence.Honestly,this is the voice of the Duran apologist? Good lord.Once upon a time they atleast put up a fight,not some botched one-liners.




You didn't answer my question,either.How does Duran suddenly become past prime,despite showing absolutely no signs of slipping up,and having just beat the best fighter he ever fought?


Duran gaining weight in-between fights is irrelevant,as he,like many other fighters,often gained weight in-between bouts and worked his way back down to his fighting weight.It certainly didn't effect his performances in the past,so why should it have done so just five months after a career definining win,in which he had three and a half months preparation for?



Try and grow a chest hair for this one,laddy....

Your replies show one liners are enough.

JAB5239
08-13-2010, 02:19 AM
Duran was at no greater stage in his career than than he was going into the rematch with Leonard.He was regarded by virtually every credible source within the sport as the very best fighter on the planet.He hadn't been defeated in eight years,was coming off a career deining performance over what was then,and arguably still is,the greatest fighter he ever fought.He had shown absolutely no signs of slipping up and despite not scoring as many knockouts as he had in his lightweight days,still retained the type of power that commanded the respect of his opponents.



Duran was in his prime and the same fighter going into New Orleans as he was in Montreal.Rather than look at what Duran couldn't do,why not look at how Leonard adjusted and never even gave Duran a chance.Why not credit Leonard for the brilliant footwork that he showed rather than how slow and sluggish Duran looked(guess who made him look like that?).



There's a reason Duran wasn't capable of pulling off the type of performance that he had given in five months previous,and it wasn't because of an upset tummy.
So who's word should we take, yours or Leonard who even stated that he knew Duran wouldn't be in top form? You become more of a joke every day!

prinzemanspopa
08-13-2010, 03:08 AM
Your replies show one liners are enough.


Your moment to shine and you blew it,lad.


Jog on home.



So who's word should we take, yours or Leonard who even stated that he knew Duran wouldn't be in top form? You become more of a joke every day!



A joke is someone who believes three and a half months of time to prepare for a fight isn't enough time for a full training camp.Nevermind the fact that Duran was already in New York by mid September.


How do you have anyway of knowing that Leonard "knew Duran wouldn't be in top form"? I'll answer that for you: you don't!



Leonard's claim(most likely made for some financial gain or some edit job) contradicts the timeline.

JAB5239
08-13-2010, 03:30 AM
A joke is someone who believes three and a half months of time to prepare for a fight isn't enough time for a full training camp.Nevermind the fact that Duran was already in New York by mid September.


How do you have anyway of knowing that Leonard "knew Duran wouldn't be in top form"? I'll answer that for you: you don't!



Leonard's claim(most likely made for some financial gain or some edit job) contradicts the timeline.

Leonard and his people knew everybody in the boxing world. They knew Duran had been gorging himself and partying non stop. Both him and Duran have stated this. These are facts, not some imaginary reasoning that this was made up for financial gain with absolutely NOTHING to support it. where would the financial gain be, in the rematch 9 and a half years later? You've been owned again and shown to be the troll you are. Tsk, tsk, tsk. :nono:

prinzemanspopa
08-13-2010, 03:53 AM
Leonard and his people knew everybody in the boxing world. They knew Duran had been gorging himself and partying non stop. Both him and Duran have stated this. These are facts, not some imaginary reasoning that this was made up for financial gain with absolutely NOTHING to support it. where would the financial gain be, in the rematch 9 and a half years later? You've been owned again and shown to be the troll you are. Tsk, tsk, tsk. :nono:



And had three and a half months to prepare for a fight that had already been verbally agreed upon.I see you continue to ignore this,despite the fact that it contradicts the entire argument that Duran wasn't prepared.How much time would he have needed,gabbers?


You can't predict someone wouldn't be properly prepared for a fight despite having three and a half months to prepare.Only an idiot(you) would think that.Do you have any idea how long that actually is,do you? About the same amount of time as he had to prepare for their first meeting.Duran bloating up in-between fights wasn't used as an excuse in the past,so why should we use it now,because he lost?



Rather than use some slanted documentary as a source,try using the articles of the day,you silly sod.


face facts,gabby,you're an apologist for a gutless quitter.A frontrunner that was too stupid and limited to make the proper adjustments needed to win a fight.

JAB5239
08-13-2010, 04:04 AM
And had three and a half months to prepare for a fight that had already been verbally agreed upon.I see you continue to ignore this,despite the fact that it contradicts the entire argument that Duran wasn't prepared.How much time would he have needed,gabbers?


You can't predict someone wouldn't be properly prepared for a fight despite having three and a half months to prepare.Only an idiot(you) would think that.Do you have any idea how long that actually is,do you? About the same amount of time as he had to prepare for their first meeting.Duran bloating up in-between fights wasn't used as an excuse in the past,so why should we use it now,because he lost?



Rather than use some slanted documentary as a source,try using the articles of the day,you silly sod.


face facts,gabby,you're an apologist for a gutless quitter.A frontrunner that was too stupid and limited to make the proper adjustments needed to win a fight.

And you continue to ignore the fact that Leonard knew he couldn't get into proper shape after gorging himself to nearly 200lbs. How did Leonard know this? Because he is a fighter. Something you know nothing about and have never done. You have no idea what the proper adjustments are. Leonard did and has admitted as much. You....you know trolling. Stick with that till your next ban. You've been humiliated in this thread.

prinzemanspopa
08-13-2010, 04:20 AM
And you continue to ignore the fact that Leonard knew he couldn't get into proper shape after gorging himself to nearly 200lbs. How did Leonard know this? Because he is a fighter. Something you know nothing about and have never done. You have no idea what the proper adjustments are. Leonard did and has admitted as much. You....you know trolling. Stick with that till your next ban. You've been humiliated in this thread.




Don't lie,Duran never got up to 200lbs,not even his manager made this claim.He claimed Duran bloated up to nearly a 180lbs.Twenty pounds is a difference and considering Duran had a history of doing this,it wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever.


Leonard's fighter....not a f*cking clairvoyant.


Continually claiming victory despite these lies and half-arsed sources makes you look even more lame than you really are.Pretending to be a fighter yourself makes you even lamer.

wmute
08-13-2010, 04:22 AM
Your moment to shine and you blew it,lad.


Jog on home.


Exactly my point.

wmute
08-13-2010, 04:23 AM
And you continue to ignore the fact that Leonard knew he couldn't get into proper shape after gorging himself to nearly 200lbs. How did Leonard know this? Because he is a fighter. Something you know nothing about and have never done. You have no idea what the proper adjustments are. Leonard did and has admitted as much. You....you know trolling. Stick with that till your next ban. You've been humiliated in this thread.

JAB... you wasting way too much effort on this.

JAB5239
08-13-2010, 04:30 AM
Don't lie,Duran never got up to 200lbs,not even his manager made this claim.He claimed Duran bloated up to nearly a 180lbs.Twenty pounds is a difference and considering Duran had a history of doing this,it wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever.


Leonard's fighter....not a f*cking clairvoyant.


Continually claiming victory despite these lies and half-arsed sources makes you look even more lame than you really are.Pretending to be a fighter yourself makes you even lamer.

Half ass sources like Leonard? Oh thats right it was probably for some financial gain. Still waiting for an explanation on that beauty! :lol1: You've never been a fighter. You have no idea what you're talking about. Yet you still see fit to refute what an all time great has to say himself...and with NOTHING to back it up. Your credibility is worth about as much as a floating turd in the toilet and I just flushed it again. :Flush:

JAB5239
08-13-2010, 04:33 AM
JAB... you wasting way too much effort on this.

Yeah, you're right. I know better than to feed the troll but I've had a few beers tonight and thought I might have been able to illicit some kind of intelligent response. I was wrong.

CarlosG815
08-13-2010, 10:04 AM
Half ass sources like Leonard? Oh thats right it was probably for some financial gain. Still waiting for an explanation on that beauty! :lol1: You've never been a fighter. You have no idea what you're talking about. Yet you still see fit to refute what an all time great has to say himself...and with NOTHING to back it up. Your credibility is worth about as much as a floating turd in the toilet and I just flushed it again. :Flush:

LMAO! I wouldn't waste anymore time. He obviously enjoys getting responses because he wants to make witty quips - my guess is because he's a piss on in his own society and that's the only way he can feel good about himself. Stir **** up on a boxing forum where he can get away with it and then argue senselessly back and forth with absolutely nothing to back it up.

I've trained myself and I can tell you if I had to lose 40 - 50 pounds in 3 months there's no chance in hell my training camp would be very effective - the human body doesn't respond well to the diet necessary to lose that kind of weight in a short amount of time, but of course prinzepooper wouldn't know that.

Like you said - he's a worthless turd that won't go down - just needs another flush. :Flush:

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prinzemanspopa
08-13-2010, 11:26 AM
Half ass sources like Leonard? Oh thats right it was probably for some financial gain. Still waiting for an explanation on that beauty! :lol1: You've never been a fighter. You have no idea what you're talking about. Yet you still see fit to refute what an all time great has to say himself...and with NOTHING to back it up. Your credibility is worth about as much as a floating turd in the toilet and I just flushed it again. :Flush:



What's the point in qouting an entire post if you don't have the sack to repond to the response that I gave? You've cried over me not directly answering every single point made in your infamous multi-qoutes,yet you've avoided virtually the entire post that I responded with.


The lie was in reference to your claim that Duran bloated up to 200lbs.It was a lie made by you,which I corrected.Rather than admit your mistake,like a man, you've chosen to ignore it,like an insecure woman.



I already explained to you that the timeline and sources of the day completely contradicts any claim made by leonard.For you to continue pressing this as if it were actually the case shows an insecurity in your own argument.


I already told you that a fight had already been verbally agreed upon three and a half months prior to their rematch.I already explained to you that Duran had a history of bloating up in-between fights,that is wasn't just limited to post-Leonard 1.




I wouldn't waste anymore time....



.....On this forum? Good.This section was a far better place before you polluted it with your ignorant,clueless posts.
.

BennyST
08-13-2010, 12:00 PM
Duran was at no greater stage in his career than than he was going into the rematch with Leonard.He was regarded by virtually every credible source within the sport as the very best fighter on the planet.He hadn't been defeated in eight years,was coming off a career deining performance over what was then,and arguably still is,the greatest fighter he ever fought.He had shown absolutely no signs of slipping up and despite not scoring as many knockouts as he had in his lightweight days,still retained the type of power that commanded the respect of his opponents.



Duran was in his prime and the same fighter going into New Orleans as he was in Montreal.Rather than look at what Duran couldn't do,why not look at how Leonard adjusted and never even gave Duran a chance.Why not credit Leonard for the brilliant footwork that he showed rather than how slow and sluggish Duran looked(guess who made him look like that?).



There's a reason Duran wasn't capable of pulling off the type of performance that he had given in five months previous,and it wasn't because of an upset tummy.

Although whatever anyone says would make no difference to you, this is one thing in which you are dead set wrong. Many of the days boxing experts considered Duran past it and 'tired' of boxing going into that fight. It was a career defining win, but it was also a major form regain as he had been looking fat, flat, off balance, bad timing etc in fights leading up to that and many, including Duran's trainers were saying he won't fight much longer because he doesn't care anymore and doesn't train. His stamina had been poor, he was getting hit more and his punches weren't as sharp and hard.

He got up to prime/peak form for one last fight, a career defining fight against the bigger, younger star whom he resented, but he hadn't looked that good since De Jesus 3 and his lightweight days, and never did again including the rematch.

Also, on Duran looking slow and sluggish. When Leonard had his boxing rounds in the first fight, why did Duran look nearly as quick as him? Why was he able to slip his jab over and over? Why was his head movement non existent in the second fight? Of course the fight was won by Leonard and who doesn't give him credit for it? He won the damn thing! But, to say it was the same guy is just silly. One look and you can tell straight away it's not. The same speed, passion, anger, ferocity wasn't there at all. He looked softer all over.

CarlosG815
08-13-2010, 12:48 PM
.....On this forum? Good.This section was a far better place before you polluted it with your ignorant,clueless posts.
.

No, I meant I wouldn't waste the time trying to debate with you because you're too dense.

How could you not get what I meant? You're more dense than I thought.

JAB5239
08-13-2010, 01:56 PM
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Freakin hysterical!! That is SO PissPooper!!

Ziggy Stardust
08-13-2010, 02:15 PM
No, I meant I wouldn't waste the time trying to debate with you because you're too dense.

How could you not get what I meant? You're more dense than I thought.

Well, you know what they say about guys like Prinzemans: You can take the retard out of the short-bus but you can't take the short-bus out of the retard :)

Poet

JAB5239
08-13-2010, 02:15 PM
What's the point in qouting an entire post if you don't have the sack to repond to the response that I gave? You've cried over me not directly answering every single point made in your infamous multi-qoutes,yet you've avoided virtually the entire post that I responded with.

Do you like this better? You want me to respond to points that have no merit, I don't do that.

The lie was in reference to your claim that Duran bloated up to 200lbs.It was a lie made by you,which I corrected.Rather than admit your mistake,like a man, you've chosen to ignore it,like an insecure woman.


Once again you're the only one lying. I never said he bloated up to 200lbs, but nearly 200lbs. This is confirmed by Leonard and in the book "Hands of Stone" by Christain Guidace. Get your facts straight and supply some sources before you go calling anybody else a liar.

I already explained to you that the timeline and sources of the day completely contradicts any claim made by leonard.For you to continue pressing this as if it were actually the case shows an insecurity in your own argument.

Both Leonard, Duran and their handlers are the sources of the day. If you have other sources (and they certainly can't be as knowledgeable on the subject) provide some links instead of just running off at the mouth.

I already told you that a fight had already been verbally agreed upon three and a half months prior to their rematch.I already explained to you that Duran had a history of bloating up in-between fights,that is wasn't just limited to post-Leonard 1.

I already told you that you've never fought before so you have no idea what it takes, and what it takes out of you to lose that much weight in such a short period. As a fighter Ray Leonard knew. Of course he had some financial gain by saying this, right? Im just curious, was he setting the stage for the rematch 9 and a half years later? :lol1:


.....On this forum? Good.This section was a far better place before you polluted it with your ignorant,clueless posts.
.

Believe me when I tell you, EVERYBODY is thinking this same exact thing about you. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

prinzemanspopa
08-13-2010, 02:57 PM
Do you like this better? You want me to respond to points that have no merit, I don't do that.



This is exactly what I'm talking about:


I already told you that a fight had already been verbally agreed upon three and a half months prior to their rematch.I already explained to you that Duran had a history of bloating up in-between fights,that is wasn't just limited to post-Leonard 1.



Your response,which failed to respond directly to what I actually posted:


I already told you that you've never fought before so you have no idea what it takes, and what it takes out of you to lose that much weight in such a short period. As a fighter Ray Leonard knew. Of course he had some financial gain by saying this, right? Im just curious, was he setting the stage for the rematch 9 and a half years later?




Drop the fighters perspective act,gabby,you're begining to make a complete arse out of yourself now.


Duran had a history of gaining weight in-between fights.He had this history of doing this,so why would it all of a sudden cause a decline just months after arguably the best performance of his career? Or are you suggesting that this very first time he ever bloated up in-between a fight?

The financial gain remark was in reference to Leonard's comment in that documentary,nothing do with his third fight with Duran,you plank.



Once again you're the only one lying. I never said he bloated up to 200lbs, but nearly 200lbs. This is confirmed by Leonard and in the book "Hands of Stone" by Christain Guidace. Get your facts straight and supply some sources before you go calling anybody else a liar.




Nearly, as in close to 200,rather than close to 180,which his own manager claimed.


Duran only "allegedly" reached the 200 mark in his mid to late thirties,when he was fairly inactive and competiting at middleweight.

JAB5239
08-13-2010, 03:29 PM
This is exactly what I'm talking about:






Your response,which failed to respond directly to what I actually posted:







Drop the fighters perspective act,gabby,you're begining to make a complete arse out of yourself now.


Duran had a history of gaining weight in-between fights.He had this history of doing this,so why would it all of a sudden cause a decline just months after arguably the best performance of his career? Or are you suggesting that this very first time he ever bloated up in-between a fight?

The financial gain remark was in reference to Leonard's comment in that documentary,nothing do with his third fight with Duran,you plank.








Nearly, as in close to 200,rather than close to 180,which his own manager claimed.


Duran only "allegedly" reached the 200 mark in his mid to late thirties,when he was fairly inactive and competiting at middleweight.

"I knew the history of Duran and that's why I asked for the rematch so soon because I knew he was in celebratory mode. I caught him in the middle of that. This all goes back to tactics." -Ray Leonard (page 195 in the book "Hands of Stone".)

Judging by the mass of backslappers and party people surrounding him, Duran had no intention of staying in shape or fighting anytime soon. "I got back to Panama and felt like king of the world," he said. I start drinking and get fat, I am with women up and down. I go to New York and its the same thing there. I get up to two hundred and twenty-five pounds." -Roberto Duran (page 195 in the book "Hands of Stone".)

"Duran started training late and had only about two months to lose what he claimed was seventy-eight pounds, though other reports claim it was closer to 185 pounds rather than 225. Certainly he looked decidedly pudgy when he sat ringside for the pitiful Larry Holmes-Muhammad Ali title fight in Vegas on October 2," (pages 195 and 196 in the book "Hands of Stone")

"Fifteen days before the fight he was twenty pounds over the weight. Arcel told me I had to postpone the fight but when I told my friend the promoter he said it was impossible because he put a lot of money into that fight. -Carlos Eleta (page 196 in the book "Hands of Stone")

Unless you can supply better evidence than this you just got owned big time.

prinzemanspopa
08-13-2010, 04:11 PM
"I knew the history of Duran and that's why I asked for the rematch so soon because I knew he was in celebratory mode. I caught him in the middle of that. This all goes back to tactics." -Ray Leonard (page 195 in the book "Hands of Stone".)



Judging by the mass of backslappers and party people surrounding him, Duran had no intention of staying in shape or fighting anytime soon. "I got back to Panama and felt like king of the world," he said. I start drinking and get fat, I am with women up and down. I go to New York and its the same thing there. I get up to two hundred and twenty-five pounds." -Roberto Duran (page 195 in the book "Hands of Stone".)

"Duran started training late and had only about two months to lose what he claimed was seventy-eight pounds, though other reports claim it was closer to 185 pounds rather than 225. Certainly he looked decidedly pudgy when he sat ringside for the pitiful Larry Holmes-Muhammad Ali title fight in Vegas on October 2," (pages 195 and 196 in the book "Hands of Stone")



"Fifteen days before the fight he was twenty pounds over the weight. Arcel told me I had to postpone the fight but when I told my friend the promoter he said it was impossible because he put a lot of money into that fight. -Carlos Eleta (page 196 in the book "Hands of Stone")

Unless you can supply better evidence than this you just got owned big time.




He had three and a half months to lose weight and sure as hell didn't need to lose "seventy eight pounds".You'd have to be incredibly stupid and naive to actually believe that gross exaggeration.


http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=LtEyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=be4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=941,174571&dq=ray+leonard+duran+verbally+agreed&hl=en



Duran's manager said he got up close to 180,which wasn't out of the norm.Duran was around 170 earlier in the year as he was getting ready for a tune-up fight.


http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=ziMNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QGsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7075,2665034&dq=ray+leonard+duran+170&hl=en


Arcel had the following to say about duran just prior to his rematch with Leonard: " is(Duran) better for this fight than he was for the last one."



http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=ULkwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JvsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2155,3538564&dq=ray+leonard+aaron+pryor+shot&hl=en

JAB5239
08-13-2010, 04:22 PM
He had three and a half months to lose weight and sure as hell didn't need to lose "seventy eight pounds".You'd have to be incredibly stupid and naive to actually believe that gross exaggeration.


http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=LtEyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=be4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=941,174571&dq=ray+leonard+duran+verbally+agreed&hl=en


This article tells us nothing.

Duran's manager said he got up close to 180,which wasn't out of the norm.Duran was around 170 earlier in the year as he was getting ready for a tune-up fight.


http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=ziMNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QGsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7075,2665034&dq=ray+leonard+duran+170&hl=en

Again, this article tells us nothing. what Duran did before the Leonard rematch has no bearing on what occurred leading up to the Leonard rematch.

Arcel had the following to say about duran just prior to his rematch with Leonard: " is(Duran) better for this fight than he was for the last one."



http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=ULkwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JvsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2155,3538564&dq=ray+leonard+aaron+pryor+shot&hl=en

Its is Arcels best interest to sell the fight if he cant get it postponed. Even you should know that. I've given you direct sources. You've given crap. Owned!

HaglerSteelChin
08-13-2010, 04:39 PM
Duran i thought looked quite well in his fight with Palomino which is about a year or so before the SRL fights. I haven't gone through his career set in a while, so i can't say if he loss alot from his heyday in the early to mid 70's. Duran was inconsistent in his career. He had a bad 1982 than came back well in 1983 when he beat Pipino Cuevas, Moore, and went 15rds with hagler.

Duran did win perhaps two rounds in the SRL rematch and i had one even.
So i had SRL winning 4-2-1 when he quit in Round 8. Was he at his best? Probably not, but far from his worse, the guy was trying hard.

In interviews he gave to spanish networks he always made the weight an issue. He even made that an issue when he loss to Hearns in 2 rounds. I felt it was just a bad decision to go down back 154 after the fight with Hagler. Also why take Hearns after 15 rounds with Hagler? He even talked about how he overtrained for Benitez. In the Benitez fight he looked a little more weak than the Leonard rematch.

IMHO, the stuff that happened in ROund 7 in New Orleans is why he quit. Mentally he couldn't tolerate the stuff the Bolo Punch, Ali shuffle, and the rest of the SRL gimmicks.

If Duran had been totally shutout or run out of gas in the later rounds than maybe we can make the weight an issue, Duran tried that night.

It also important to remember the ring size of the rematch. I believe it was fairl big at 21 feet? I just go by memory and try to recall the circumstances.


SRL was not flat footed and on his toes in New Oreans, when SRL was on his toes used his reach, and had that ring size, i don't think any version of Duran beating him, just my humble opinion.

prinzemanspopa
08-14-2010, 10:29 AM
This article tells us nothing.



It tells us that a rematch had been verbally agreed up in mid august,some three and a half months before their rematch did take place.



Again, this article tells us nothing. what Duran did before the Leonard rematch has no bearing on what occurred leading up to the Leonard rematch.



It does,actually.It shows that Duran bloating up in-between fights was the norm and happened all the time,not just this one isolated period.That in his preparation for the rematch with Leonard,there was no real difference to any other time he had entered camp.





Its is Arcels best interest to sell the fight if he cant get it postponed. Even you should know that. I've given you direct sources. You've given crap. Owned!



That's right,you obviously know more about Duran's preparations than Duran's own trainer.



I also gave you direct sources,you were simply too thick-headed and caught up in the stench of your own bullsh*t to read them.A classless move on Duran's manager to make a claim on a man who was no longer alive to confirm this.I don't recall Arcel making such claims when he was alive.

JAB5239
08-14-2010, 03:18 PM
Here is another bit of insight that proves Duran was in much better condition for the first fight than the second. "Duran arrived in New York on April 13 to begin training a Grossingers. People knew he was serious when he was nowhere to be found on the club circuit." -Page 184 from the book "Hands of Stone"

So lets see.....he wasn't partying for the first fight, but was admittedly, by himself, Leonard, Arcel and Eleta partying for the second fight. How could he have been just as good for the rematch, and what does Leonard have to gain by confirming this story?

GJC
08-15-2010, 02:39 PM
Duran did win perhaps two rounds in the SRL rematch and i had one even.
So i had SRL winning 4-2-1 when he quit in Round 8. Was he at his best? Probably not, but far from his worse, the guy was trying hard.



I had it 4-2-1 too and I think the judges had only a couple of rounds in it, plenty of time for Duran to turn it round.
Think the Leonard horsing around frustrated him and maybe he figured that Leonard was going to stay out of reach and he didn't have the legs to chase him down?
Is one of those fights that people remember the highlights of or haven't really seen it and have Leonard boxing Duran's ears off for 8 rounds, not strictly the case. Leonard was "on" that night and Duran was below par but Leonard had better fights than that although Duran 2 seems to be remembered as his tour de force.

boxing89
08-15-2010, 02:48 PM
Sugar Ray in my opinion

HaglerSteelChin
08-15-2010, 03:01 PM
I had it 4-2-1 too and I think the judges had only a couple of rounds in it, plenty of time for Duran to turn it round.
Think the Leonard horsing around frustrated him and maybe he figured that Leonard was going to stay out of reach and he didn't have the legs to chase him down?
Is one of those fights that people remember the highlights of or haven't really seen it and have Leonard boxing Duran's ears off for 8 rounds, not strictly the case. Leonard was "on" that night and Duran was below par but Leonard had better fights than that although Duran 2 seems to be remembered as his tour de force.

Duran was far more dominated by SRL in their 3rd fight. The only thing Duran did to SRL in the third fight was cut his eye very late in RD 11 of that fight.

Duran as you said had enough time to make a comeback. Why he quit is speculated by many. He had stomach cramps and such was used and some even thought he took cocaine or another drug. There was an interview by Cosell with both SRL and Duran some time after the fight. Some even say he never said "No Mas" but said No Mas con el payaso(No more with the clown).

I felt that ring was problematic as Duran i felt quit more for mental than physical reasons. Duran was a warrior and even fought with a hurt hand before, i doubt stomach cramps was the reason he quit.

JAB5239
08-15-2010, 03:34 PM
Here is another bit of insight that proves Duran was in much better condition for the first fight than the second. "Duran arrived in New York on April 13 to begin training a Grossingers. People knew he was serious when he was nowhere to be found on the club circuit." -Page 184 from the book "Hands of Stone"

So lets see.....he wasn't partying for the first fight, but was admittedly, by himself, Leonard, Arcel and Eleta partying for the second fight. How could he have been just as good for the rematch, and what does Leonard have to gain by confirming this story?

Can anybody answer this question?