View Full Version : Higher ATG: Rocky Marciano or George Foreman?


Joeyzagz
07-18-2010, 02:29 PM
http://sport.teenee.com/sport/imr9/2038451.jpg
Rocky Marciano
49-0, 43 KOs

http://www.angelfire.com/bc/lowblows/images/Foreman.JPG
George Foreman
76-5, 68 KOs


Both guys are solid top 5 Heavyweigt Atgs in my opinion, but regardless of where you have them ranked, whose career do you give the edge to?

This is not about who would win in a Head 2 Head matchup! Judge them on their accomplishments in the ring, and state your criteria.

boxing boy
07-18-2010, 02:35 PM
George Foreman....And in a head to head match-up would be murder.

Tyson.
07-18-2010, 02:35 PM
Foreman achieved more.

Has a better resume with fighters closer to their prime. Ability wise Prime Foreman is better.

Joeyzagz
07-18-2010, 02:46 PM
Foreman achieved more.

Has a better resume with fighters closer to their prime. Ability wise Prime Foreman is better.

I think people seriously overlook the extreme discipline it takes to go undefeated as a top fighter, especially in the Heavyweight division where one punch can end it all.

To this day no one has been able to touch Marciano's record in any weight class and for that, I think he deserves a permanent residence in the top 5.

Tyson.
07-18-2010, 02:57 PM
I think people seriously overlook the extreme discipline it takes to go undefeated as a top fighter, especially in the Heavyweight division where one punch can end it all.

To this day no one has been able to touch Marciano's record in any weight class and for that, I think he deserves a permanent residence in the top 5.

Joe Louis, Jack Johnson, Ali, Foreman and Holmes all rank higher than Marciano.

Megamasterking
07-18-2010, 06:58 PM
I know that Foreman was bigger, but the difference between the two is the way Foreman did not have that will to win. There is no way that Marciano would have fall like he did against Ali and Ali is my ATG HW. A Marciano who hated to lose so much would have found a way to land a one timer and at least would have give a fight to the great Ali. Please dont tell me that Marciano was not able to KO a big man, its just not fair, Marciano had that only one punch that few man will ever have. I respect your opinion, respect mine.

carlos slim
07-18-2010, 08:19 PM
foreman would kill marciano head to head, but marciano has like twice as many title fights...

irishdude
07-18-2010, 10:51 PM
I think George as he won the title when he was 24 against Frazier, and 21 years later when 45 against Moorer. Plus he showed heart in coming back against Zaire.

Yeah, he didn't win the title after his Zaire, but he won fighter of the year in 1976 and fight of the year against Ron Lyle. Ali dodged him too after Zaire. This before his religious experience.

On a fight between the 2, it would be Foreman-Frazier Fight 1, Part 2. I could see marciano being stopped spectacularly early on. Only thing is Marciano is a lighter Frazier, so I can see Foreman lifting Rocky off his feet and over the ropes to end it :D

frankenfrank
07-19-2010, 12:57 AM
P4P I favor Marciano .
In terms of legacy it is close :
Marciano undefeated but was also never tested against much bigger quality opposition and his top opponents were older than himself , sometimes even significantly so while Foreman also untested against much bigger (hard to find) quality opposition , was defeated although I excuse the Ali loss (loosened ropes helped to absorb his punches) but much less if at all the Young loss . Foreman actually outdid Ali so if you pick Ali's legacy over Marciano's and you are reasonable then you should pick Foreman's legacy over Marciano as well.

JAB5239
07-19-2010, 01:38 AM
I've got Foreman 6th and Marciano 10th all time. I think George beat the better heavyweights and his winning the title again at 45 is huge. Rocky's 49-0 is impressive to say the least, and he cleaned out his division, but he lacks any great prime fighters such as Norton and Frazier. This is just my opinion. I could respect an opinion in the other direction though I'd disagree.

Spartacus Sully
07-19-2010, 02:03 AM
George foreman was a giant oaf who for the most part after 1970 gave up boxing in favor of spinning people in circles till they were dizzy then pushing them down.

george foreman shouldnt even be compared to marciano.

JAB5239
07-19-2010, 02:14 AM
George foreman was a giant oaf who for the most part after 1970 gave up boxing in favor of spinning people in circles till they were dizzy then pushing them down.

george foreman shouldnt even be compared to marciano.

You don't think Foremans wins over Peralta, Chuvalo, Kirkman, Frazier, Norton and Lyle are impressive? I love Marciano, but I don't think he would have been undefeated had he fought these guys. I'd easily pick Frazier over him and see him having trouble with both Norton and Chuvalo, possibly losing. Jmo.

Spartacus Sully
07-19-2010, 02:24 AM
You don't think Foremans wins over Peralta, Chuvalo, Kirkman, Frazier, Norton and Lyle are impressive? I love Marciano, but I don't think he would have been undefeated had he fought these guys. I'd easily pick Frazier over him and see him having trouble with both Norton and Chuvalo, possibly losing. Jmo.

he was actually boxing vs chuvalo so that was decent but the rest not so much though i do need to watch some of them.

fraizer is not beating marciano. hes going to bob directly into a wound up right. with fraizers head movement and lack of guard hes going to be out cold first or second round. chauvalo would be like walcot for the most part maybe not quite as fast and as good of a jab/guard. and i havnt watched enough of norton to make an educated decision but im sure marciano could take him.

One more round
07-19-2010, 02:24 AM
Foreman is higher ranked, and h2h it would be murder.

JAB5239
07-19-2010, 02:43 AM
he was actually boxing vs chuvalo so that was decent but the rest not so much though i do need to watch some of them.

fraizer is not beating marciano. hes going to bob directly into a wound up right. with fraizers head movement and lack of guard hes going to be out cold first or second round. chauvalo would be like walcot for the most part maybe not quite as fast and as good of a jab/guard. and i havnt watched enough of norton to make an educated decision but im sure marciano could take him.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the outcome of a Frazier-Marciano fight my man.

Spartacus Sully
07-19-2010, 03:22 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree on the outcome of a Frazier-Marciano fight my man.

But its so clear in my head...well actually in the version in my head fraizers head comes clean off but still....i can easily see fraizer beating marciano just like many people could easily see louis beating schmelling the first time but just like louis with his left after the jab you got fraizer untucking his chin and dropping his guard when he bob's...but marcianos firing off alot harder rights then schmelling ever could plus the force of fraizer bobbing into the fist would compound everything directly into putting him out cold all in one hit...

though agreeing to disagree is fine as well.

GameGod
07-19-2010, 04:04 PM
Foreman and Marciano are definitely both Top 20 Heavyweights on any list, with Foreman probably being inside the Top 15 or maybe the Top 10 (I have him at #11) and Marciano being slightly further behind at #14. I place Marciano right behind Joe Frazier, in the opinion that they were similar but Frazier's intangibles would give him a slight edge in addition to being "slightly better" at just about everything.

Foreman achieved more (though Marciano is also very impressive), and would easily also win in a one-on-one match. Frazier had lasted six knock-downs and entered Round 2; Marciano would probably go down for the last time after four (or possibly five) knock-downs, probably early in Round 2 (at about 0:40).

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 06:52 AM
Foreman achieved more.

Has a better resume with fighters closer to their prime. Ability wise Prime Foreman is better.
I totally disagree man, Resume give me a rest, I go on their records and what I've seen,.. George had many advantages, but NO WAY is he rank-able next to Marciano as a great, if George vis able to beat Rocky it would be size only that did it. Walcott, Charles and Moore were great fighters,.... Walcott was a nobody at 30 he became a somebody late, the 42 year old Joe KILLS the 30 year old version,,, he was ar his peak when Rocky beat him. Marciano's 49 - 0 is completely unparralled, for god's sake he was taken the full 15 rds only Once,....... some people go around saying that Charles was a bum HW then proceed to rank him Top 20 ?????..... make up your minds, when my mate see's some of the posts here,... HE WILL give you a piece of his mind......... Foreman is a great HW, but his legacy is short of Rocky......... He was the most well conditioned HW to ever live, the most durable, the best work ethic of any champion in the division,.... he is a goddamn legend, THE BEST KO ARTIST in HW history PERIOD, p4p he beats Foreman and is good enough to go 15 or even 20 rounds with him head to head,....... and look out George if you haven't put him away by the 7th, because if this fight goes anywhere near the late rounds,.... big George'll be on his way for a stint in Hospital..... Come on Rocky fans, where are you.

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 07:12 AM
Foreman and Marciano are definitely both Top 20 Heavyweights on any list, with Foreman probably being inside the Top 15 or maybe the Top 10 (I have him at #11) and Marciano being slightly further behind at #14. I place Marciano right behind Joe Frazier, in the opinion that they were similar but Frazier's intangibles would give him a slight edge in addition to being "slightly better" at just about everything.

Foreman achieved more (though Marciano is also very impressive), and would easily also win in a one-on-one match. Frazier had lasted six knock-downs and entered Round 2; Marciano would probably go down for the last time after four (or possibly five) knock-downs, probably early in Round 2 (at about 0:40).
But we're talking greatness aren't we, how does Foreman's record compare to Rocky's,,,,,,,. .......Foreman knocks out Ali in Zaire,...... then that would be greater, but George didn't, that's one loss. the HWs of the late 60's and 70's were a lot bigger than Rocky,.... in other words there's a perfectly legitimate reason if Foreman beats Rocky, but if Rocky beats George, what is the reason........... all that would happen around here, would be people calling Foreman the biggest bum of the lot. Nothing Rocky did, or does would ever stop his deniers,..... they have made their minds up that anybody could have got a 49-0 and beat such no-hopers like Walcott or Charles. I was always told that Rocky only beat nobodies. Then I saw the fights and I thought, Darn that Walcotts good, and he was, he had maybe the Greatest left hook of any HW to ever lived,...... What I saw in the Marciano fights blew me away........ Effectiveness is better than prettyness, Iv'e seen hundreds of speedy flashy big mouths,... but I've only EVER SEEN ONE MARCIANO.

kendom
08-16-2011, 07:17 AM
Its definetly George Foreman, destrying Frazier and Norton is above anything Marciano has on his resume, he came back at 45 to become the oldest man to win the heavyweight championship, if Marciano fought in Foreman's era he would have losses to Ali, possibly Frazier and definetly Foreman, I rate quality of opposition and H2H over 49-0 records.

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 07:27 AM
Its definetly George Foreman, destrying Frazier and Norton is above anything Marciano has on his resume, he came back at 45 to become the oldest man to win the heavyweight championship, if Marciano fought in Foreman's era he would have losses to Ali, possibly Frazier and definetly Foreman, I rate quality of opposition and H2H over 49-0 records.
Foreman was way bigger than them, he was supposed to beat them,,, bad luck Joe, but you picked Foreman as an opponent only because he was a supposed bum,... well he wasn't, and he towered over Frazier,... the question about Foreman Frazier should be who was better P4p...... Marciano was just a CW, but he was HW champ and has an untouchable record,....... Foremans record is not untouchable..... hence my position.

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 08:40 AM
But its so clear in my head...well actually in the version in my head fraizers head comes clean off but still....i can easily see fraizer beating marciano just like many people could easily see louis beating schmelling the first time but just like louis with his left after the jab you got fraizer untucking his chin and dropping his guard when he bob's...but marcianos firing off alot harder rights then schmelling ever could plus the force of fraizer bobbing into the fist would compound everything directly into putting him out cold all in one hit...

though agreeing to disagree is fine as well.
Good post, U agree with you.

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 08:42 AM
Its definetly George Foreman, destrying Frazier and Norton is above anything Marciano has on his resume, he came back at 45 to become the oldest man to win the heavyweight championship, if Marciano fought in Foreman's era he would have losses to Ali, possibly Frazier and definetly Foreman, I rate quality of opposition and H2H over 49-0 records.
You mean the oldest man to win a PART of the world title, and against a far lesser opponent than a Marciano.

kendom
08-16-2011, 09:57 AM
Foreman was way bigger than them, he was supposed to beat them,,, bad luck Joe, but you picked Foreman as an opponent only because he was a supposed bum,... well he wasn't, and he towered over Frazier,... the question about Foreman Frazier should be who was better P4p...... Marciano was just a CW, but he was HW champ and has an untouchable record,....... Foremans record is not untouchable..... hence my position.

Yes but Foreman faced better opposition than Marciano, 49-0 isnt that impressive to me, undefeated means untested. Besides Foreman deserves to be rated higher because he beat him, whats the point of fighting? is it not to see who the better fighter is?

fitefanSHO
08-16-2011, 10:03 AM
Tough call.

Undefeated record vs Two Time Champion who made the greatest comeback in boxing history. When I think about strictly in terms of how they should be rated, I give the edge to Rocky but when I think about them fighting, it's hard not to imagine George winning.

Add Marciano vs Foreman to my "Title Bout" queue. :boxing:

IronDanHamza
08-16-2011, 10:11 AM
I have Foreman ranked higher.

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 11:57 AM
Yes but Foreman faced better opposition than Marciano, 49-0 isnt that impressive to me, undefeated means untested. Besides Foreman deserves to be rated higher because he beat him, whats the point of fighting? is it not to see who the better fighter is?
And I still say that MOORE, CHARLES, and WALCOTT were GREAT FIGHTERS, you are doing them great disservice, they were just as great as Frazier an Norton ( how can you call Norton better fighter than the great Ezzard Charles ????????) ALI Does'nt count as hr KO'd Foreman,....... just because the average HW was smaller then, at least the very good one's. anyway........... Can't you see that Marciano was smaller than his opposition, it's all relative......... Are we going to denigrate Ali in 90 years when the HW champion is 12 feet tall and weighs 659 KILOGRAMS,..... Oh remember those silly old bastards who used to talk about that Puny Klitschko and Muhammad ALI dude, man my 9 foot tall 8 year old would crush those guys, what with our Nano-Tecnology and Bionic power run bodies............................................ .......lol........................................ ..................---------------- Here is the guy who never ducked an opponent and fought EVERYBODY IN THE DIVISION and Knocked out 42 fighters out of 49 wins,......... He was the HW king as long as he wanted it (4 years and plenty defences, he didn't lose his title in his 2nd or 3rd defence, no he beat everybody, and half of that 49 were as good as Moorer at HW... ...... Foreman is one of my favorite's too, but Rocky was the better fighter P4P,,......... and the QUESTION this thread asked was P4P,... not head to head.

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 12:02 PM
Tough call.

Undefeated record vs Two Time Champion who made the greatest comeback in boxing history. When I think about strictly in terms of how they should be rated, I give the edge to Rocky but when I think about them fighting, it's hard not to imagine George winning.

Add Marciano vs Foreman to my "Title Bout" queue. :boxing:
I just did Foreman vs Dempsey,............. Jack won the decision............ that Dempsey sure was Good...

fitefanSHO
08-16-2011, 12:08 PM
Can't you see that Marciano was smaller than his opposition, it's all relative......... Are we going to denigrate Ali in 90 years when the HW champion is 12 feet tall and weighs 659 KILOGRAMS,..... Oh remember those silly old bastards who used to talk about that Puny Klitschko and Muhammad ALI dude, man my 9 foot tall 8 year old would crush those guys, what with our Nano-Tecnology and Bionic power run bodies. Foreman is one of my favorite's too, but Rocky was the better fighter P4P,,......... and the QUESTION this thread asked was P4P,... not head to head.

IMO, because Heavyweight is weight unlimited, it's not inappropriate to match heavyweights head-to-head (as they actually were) across generations when wondering how they would do against eachother. It's one thing to wonder how a 135 lb Roberto Duran might do against a 175 pound Michael Spinks in a P4P dream matchup but heavies are what they are and Marciano was as small as a heavyweight could be without being a Cruiserweight. So when I imagine Marciano against Foreman or even against a Klitschko, I imagine the fight and consider the result based on their actual sizes, and actual skills.

Greatest1942
08-16-2011, 12:31 PM
Its definetly George Foreman, destrying Frazier and Norton is above anything Marciano has on his resume, he came back at 45 to become the oldest man to win the heavyweight championship, if Marciano fought in Foreman's era he would have losses to Ali, possibly Frazier and definetly Foreman, I rate quality of opposition and H2H over 49-0 records.

I rate Walcott and Charles over Norton...

Marciano is a better match up vs Ali than Foreman.

Against top 2 opponents Rock is 9-0, Foreman is 4-3. Considering how long he fought I would say that George was extremely cautious.

Anyways Foreman himself beat Frazier and Norton...got beaten By Ali and Young. Did not fight Quarry or Shavers (he beats those two in my book)...In my book the Rock beats Frazier and Norton too. Later on Foreman could have fought Holmes but did not..if Foreman beat Ali he would be indisputably better but he lost to Ali and Young

Foreman did beat Peralta a good light heavy whom he could not KO the first time, but Marciano beat Moore who was better. I dont favour many of teh guys Foreman beat to win vs Moore, Frazier and may be Norton and thats it.

Savold, Layne are good wins...they were ranked contenders...Layne was 34-1 when he fought Rocky...May be if Rocky struggled against Layne he would be considered better.

I dont see how Foreman was so far above Marciano.

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 01:10 PM
IMO, because Heavyweight is weight unlimited, it's not inappropriate to match heavyweights head-to-head (as they actually were) across generations when wondering how they would do against eachother. It's one thing to wonder how a 135 lb Roberto Duran might do against a 175 pound Michael Spinks in a P4P dream matchup but heavies are what they are and Marciano was as small as a heavyweight could be without being a Cruiserweight. So when I imagine Marciano against Foreman or even against a Klitschko, I imagine the fight and consider the result based on their actual sizes, and actual skills.
Yeah, that's fine mate, I understand that is the case when come up with fantasy Matchups between HW era's but the guy who opened his thread was specifically asking P4P and comparing the records and overall dominance and such things we do when we try to make lists that are to represent a very long time span. I tried to do a few threads asking people to make a top ten list of a span of just a decade and only Middleweights, it proved a task that no one got even close to achieving a D minus. I like lists that are more realistic like that,,,,, the open ended character that sets the HW division from all others has always troubled me, I prefer the MW's to the biguns any day........ A MW has always been a MW,,,,,,,,, the MW's today are a little taller but the old MW's were chunkier, but they are perfectly even, you can create a Matchup between Ketchel and Hopkins and it's a fair fight,............ and that's the key for me,...... a FAIR Fight, I've never been impressed when some huge prick beats up a little guy,.... very occasionally the little feller wins, and everybody celebrates,............................. at the beginning of our journey through time, the big hulking fellow has pushed the little guy around until the little guys invented guns that is ( I'll lay odds of a Million to one that the inventor of the gun was without doubt a fellow of Napoleonicly Stupendous Shortness (gee I invented a totally original phrase--- them apples Shakespeare),..................... the point being, guns make a level playing field, after all, who ever heard of the Olympic Heavyweight Double Trap Shooting Gold Medallist,..... or a welterweight olympic PENTATHLETE Silver Medallist.............................. I'm gonna make myself a coffee,

Forza
08-16-2011, 01:28 PM
Foreman better fighter, better legacy.

Love marciano and he gets underrated but he would have needed wins over patterson and a green sonny liston to be higher than foreman.

Hell if marciano would have beaten at least patterson he would get much more respect.

Marcianos legacy is littered with wins over great fighters, but they were not "as great" when marciano got to them. Terrible post WW2 era.

Greatest1942
08-16-2011, 01:40 PM
I rate Walcott and Charles over Norton...

Marciano is a better match up vs Ali than Foreman.

Against top 2 opponents Rock is 9-0, Foreman is 4-3. Considering how long he fought I would say that George was extremely cautious.

Anyways Foreman himself beat Frazier and Norton...got beaten By Ali and Young. Did not fight Quarry or Shavers (he beats those two in my book)...In my book the Rock beats Frazier and Norton too. Later on Foreman could have fought Holmes but did not..if Foreman beat Ali he would be indisputably better but he lost to Ali and Young

Foreman did beat Peralta a good light heavy whom he could not KO the first time, but Marciano beat Moore who was better. I dont favour many of teh guys Foreman beat to win vs Moore, Frazier and may be Norton and thats it.

Savold, Layne are good wins...they were ranked contenders...Layne was 34-1 when he fought Rocky...May be if Rocky struggled against Layne he would be considered better.

I dont see how Foreman was so far above Marciano.

Layne is very underrated today.
After his loss to MArciano , Layne got derailed he was never the same. But growing up he was considered a live prospect by none other than Nat who rated him highly. He beat Walcoot, Satterfield, Charles all great wins. While Norton has the single biggest win I think layne has more depth in his resume. But the Rocky loss really unsettled him and then he was beaten by Charles the next fight... really lost it after that...but make no mistake he was very good. Heres an article on the man.

THE RIGHT LAYNE
By NAT LOUBET

REX LAYNE, heavyweight challenger, had just added another victim to his collection. Bob Satterfield, Chicagoan, had been raining punches off Rex's cocoanut-like noggin all night. The cherubic-faced Mormon from Lewiston, Utah, fondeled the sore spots. Satterifeld had been laid to rest in 2:56 of the eighth canto when Mark Conn, the arbiter, halted the contest with Bob helples from a short right to the jaw.
The bout had been an even-steven affair up to the knockout, although Layne had received all his punches in one locality- the cephalic, or, as the inmates of Stillman's Gym would have it, the kisser.
It was suggested right after the contest that Rex had youth, strength, could take and give it, had showed improvement in his boxing form since his last two Garden appearances against Jersey Joe Walcott and Cesar Brion, respectively, but that he was still green and needed much seasoning in the technique of boxing.
Marvin Jensen, the mink-raising guardian of Layne's ring fortunes, rushed to the defense. "He can box a lot better than he has shown since coming East. Did you see that boy punch? Ole Rex here sure has what it takes. He's full of fight.
"Yeah," someone said, "but how long will he be full of fight if he doesn't learn how to protect himself better?"
Rex interrupted: "A couple more fights like this and I'll be playing marbles," he quipped.
Regardless of his record, an enviable on of 32 fights with only one loss, that to Dave Whitlock whom he defeated in two other outings, it is clear that Rex will have his greatest trouble with fast men who can move around. He won't lose anything by picking up a little more polish in the finer points of boxing.

REX started his boxing career while a sergeant with the 187th Regiment of the 11th Airborne Division, located in the Asiatic theatre. He had enlisted in September, 1946, and was mustered out in March, 1948. In the interim, he won regimental and divisional titles. He came close to carrying home the bacon in the All-Japan tournaments in 1947 and 1948, and but a lad by the name of Howard Williams kept him from achieving that end.
It wasn't until 1949 that Layne made the simon-pure "big time." In that year he won the National A.A.U. championship and a few months later turned professional. His amateur record stands at 26 fights, with only four losses.
After Layne's unimpressive win over Cesar Brion we were visited by the mild-mannered, bashful, boyish Rex and his enthusiastic manager, Jensen.
Jensen recounted the thrill in seeing the best of the breed come into its own; how he had thrilled in raising the best mink and now he was seeing "ole Rex" become a serious contender for heavyweight honors.
It was less than two years ago that THE RING picked Layne as a comer, and he has kept faith by making the grade.
A group had gathered and someone said, "Rex has a whale of a right, but why doesn't he use his left more?"
Jensen jumped into the breach. "Ole Rex here has a dandy of a left hand but he injured it in an early fight and only recently has he started to develop it again."
Rex cut in with: "That's right. My left is beginning to shape up again. I feel it in my gym workouts, and I'll be using it more as I go along."
In his fight with Satterfield, Rex showed improvement with that left, and better boxing form, but he is still way off in ring science and unless he learns how to protect himself, how to avoid powerful wallops such as he got in the Satterfield bout, he'll fail to reach his objective. He's too wide open for punishment.

JENSEN has been the butt of a great deal of criticism from New York scribes for the manner in which he has brought Layne along. His critics claim that his boy was too green for the likes of a Walcott; should never have been in with an awkward spoiler like Brion, and that Satterfield was too strong a puncher for the Utah youngster.
"He's being fed to the lions," has been the cry. But Layne has defeated all three, and by so doing, he is now in a spot to demand recognition as a top challenger. After all, success is what counts, and Layne has come through with victories. His T.N.T. sock and courage have done that for him.
Critics assert that Jensen has not had the experience in the pro league. Yes, he's developed a bevy of amateurs, but the manager of a big-time professional is different, has been the butt of the criticism.
Well, Jensen had to take more chances than other managers or else not get any matches at all for Layne. He was up against it and has won out. The choices that he accepted have all worked out well for Layne, despite the fact that the opposition was exceedingly tough.
Some claim that Layne must receive expert tutoring in boxing technique, tutorin that an old-timer must give. Well, Jensen has one of the best old-time managers in his corner in Joe Woodeman, former manager of Sam Langford, who should be able to advis properly.
We recall a conversation with Jensen prior to Layne's fight with Walcott in which he stated that he wasn't advancing the easy way. "I'm sure Walcott can be beaten by Rex. I've studied the movies of his previous fights and I know what I'm doing. He continued: "There's too much picking of opponents today. If a man wants to be champ he must prove that right by fighting the best."
<b>
Results talk, and Layne is up there, but we would like to see him taught more of the finer points. Continuing to take two to land one is likely to end as Layne himself stated: "A couple more fights like this and I'll be playing marbles."</b>
We were shooting the bull a few days prior to the Satterfield affair. Someone made a crack about how Layne looked too young to be of age.
Joe Woodman said: "He'll be 23 in June." He turned to Layne, who was present. "Right?"
Rex said: "I was born June 7, 1928."
"What time?" someone joshed.
Someone else cut in: "Did you ever do anything else but fight for a living?"
"Sure," laughed Rex. "My father owns a farm in Lewiston and I worked on it until I went into the army."
"Say, Rex," interrupted a bystander, "you're not married, are yuh?"
--------- This goes into a lot of talk about Layne's family and whatever else, so I'll just cut to the end-------
We asked Joe Woodman, who has been close to the youngster, what kind of boy he is.
"A grand lad," said Joe. "He lives a clean life, trains hard and is a good family man-and don't forget... a darn good fighter."
The last time we saw Layne was the day after his fight with Satterfield, when he was in THE RING office with Jensen.
"What's you ambition?" Rex was asked.
"What a question to ask a fighter," he countered. I want to be a champ and some day have a restaurant of my own like Jack Dempsey."
Both Dempsey and Gene Tunney had seen Layne in his fight with Satterfield and were high on him. "Polish up his defense and you have a prospective champ," was their chorus.


.............

kendom
08-16-2011, 01:47 PM
And I still say that MOORE, CHARLES, and WALCOTT were GREAT FIGHTERS, you are doing them great disservice, they were just as great as Frazier an Norton ( how can you call Norton better fighter than the great Ezzard Charles ????????) ALI Does'nt count as hr KO'd Foreman,....... just because the average HW was smaller then, at least the very good one's. anyway........... Can't you see that Marciano was smaller than his opposition, it's all relative......... Are we going to denigrate Ali in 90 years when the HW champion is 12 feet tall and weighs 659 KILOGRAMS,..... Oh remember those silly old bastards who used to talk about that Puny Klitschko and Muhammad ALI dude, man my 9 foot tall 8 year old would crush those guys, what with our Nano-Tecnology and Bionic power run bodies............................................ .......lol........................................ ..................---------------- Here is the guy who never ducked an opponent and fought EVERYBODY IN THE DIVISION and Knocked out 42 fighters out of 49 wins,......... He was the HW king as long as he wanted it (4 years and plenty defences, he didn't lose his title in his 2nd or 3rd defence, no he beat everybody, and half of that 49 were as good as Moorer at HW... ...... Foreman is one of my favorite's too, but Rocky was the better fighter P4P,,......... and the QUESTION this thread asked was P4P,... not head to head.

A 39 year old Moore out of the light-heavyweight division is a better win than Ken Norton? A win over Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles, the first who does not deserve to be ranked over Frazier in a serious list and an Ezzard Charles who was 33 and out of his prime weight and gave him all he could handle in 2 fights? are those better than wins over Frazier? I acknowledge Marcianos achievements and im not trying to denigrate him, he would certainly beat Norton and for that matter anyone in Frazier's era, with perhaps one victory in a trilogy over Ali except Foreman, but H2H which they shoud be compared as since they both contended as heavyweights and resume wise I dont see how Marciano beats him.

Greatest1942
08-16-2011, 02:19 PM
A 39 year old Moore out of the light-heavyweight division is a better win than Ken Norton? A win over Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles, the first who does not deserve to be ranked over Frazier in a serious list and an Ezzard Charles who was 33 and out of his prime weight and gave him all he could handle in 2 fights? are those better than wins over Frazier? I acknowledge Marcianos achievements and im not trying to denigrate him, he would certainly beat Norton and for that matter anyone in Frazier's era, with perhaps one victory in a trilogy over Ali except Foreman, but H2H which they shoud be compared as since they both contended as heavyweights and resume wise I dont see how Marciano beats him.

Have you seen what a 39 year old Moore did post marciano..Charles was not at his best ..but he was still good.

Walcott was a late bloomer and teh champ...

Norton was still not overly superior even over that version of Charles or Walcott

jabsRstiff
08-16-2011, 02:23 PM
Not sure who I'd choose, but I will say something that's rarely said about Foreman...

His performance in the Ali fight was one of the worst I've ever seen. He literally looked like a guy who had just started boxing. So, for all those who cite his blowouts of Norton and Frazier as proof of his awesomeness, the Ali fight showed his lameness.

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 02:41 PM
A 39 year old Moore out of the light-heavyweight division is a better win than Ken Norton? A win over Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles, the first who does not deserve to be ranked over Frazier in a serious list and an Ezzard Charles who was 33 and out of his prime weight and gave him all he could handle in 2 fights? are those better than wins over Frazier? I acknowledge Marcianos achievements and im not trying to denigrate him, he would certainly beat Norton and for that matter anyone in Frazier's era, with perhaps one victory in a trilogy over Ali except Foreman, but H2H which they shoud be compared as since they both contended as heavyweights and resume wise I dont see how Marciano beats him.
Styles make fights and Frazier is fantastic, But he was so much shorter and tailor made for Foremans uppercuts, Fraziers head was there for george to hit as he pleased, anyone seeing that fight must be able to see what I mean. The size advantage was way more than between Rocky and Charles. Layne has been mentioned, La Starza was top notch,,,,,,,,, and anyway, just watch Marciano Fight......................... what more do you need to know, surely it isn't fair to penalize Rocky as much,....... it's like you're trying to make 49-0 look like a 29-20,........... surely the fact that the smallest man in his entire division and cleaned them out, SURELY He must be recognised as great........... ......... Surely, sucess in the face of almost impossible odds equals sucess in yje face of certain victory,....I Simply cannot believe that I have to defend Rocky Marciano of all people,,,,,,, a 26 to 13 poll result is somewhat insulting.

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 02:52 PM
Not sure who I'd choose, but I will say something that's rarely said about Foreman...

His performance in the Ali fight was one of the worst I've ever seen. He literally looked like a guy who had just started boxing. So, for all those who cite his blowouts of Norton and Frazier as proof of his awesomeness, the Ali fight showed his lameness.
Perfect,....... now why didn't I just say that ???...also, it's funny how so many people are trying to obliterate Rocky from boxing records at least it seems that way,... if you asked any Boxing fan that Foreman was greater than Rocky in 1976,... they would have laughed at you and said ZAIRE,.............................

fitefanSHO
08-16-2011, 02:58 PM
Perfect,....... now why didn't I just say that ???...also, it's funny how so many people are trying to obliterate Rocky from boxing records at least it seems that way,... if you asked any Boxing fan that Foreman was greater than Rocky in 1976,... they would have laughed at you and said ZAIRE,.............................

In 1987, George's stated reason for coming back was money for his youth center but I think deep down inside he was also concerned about his legacy and wanted a chance to improve upon it. Clearly he succeeded. Without that comeback, George is forever thought of (and underrated) as a clubbing brawler with limited stamina albeit w/ incredible power. With the comeback, he is thought of by many now as a Top 5 ATG heavyweight. And to think people thought the whole thing was just a big joke and that George was gonna get himself hurt...

lightsout_finit
08-16-2011, 03:01 PM
Foremans level of competition was way higher though his career and he did become champ again when he was an old man, So I'd say he achieved more.......

If they were to fight Marciano would get destroyed............

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 03:54 PM
In 1987, George's stated reason for coming back was money for his youth center but I think deep down inside he was also concerned about his legacy and wanted a chance to improve upon it. Clearly he succeeded. Without that comeback, George is forever thought of (and underrated) as a clubbing brawler with limited stamina albeit w/ incredible power. With the comeback, he is thought of by many now as a Top 5 ATG heavyweight. And to think people thought the whole thing was just a big joke and that George was gonna get himself hurt...
You know I like George mate, but this whole thread has been one long kicking of a great man and some posters are simply mad,,.... a lot of people are grinding their axe on a great man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I'll be damned if I'll sit by silent,... when my poster mate Marchegiano finds this thread and start reading some of these posts, he'll flip, Marciano is his favourite fighter,................ And I think Rocky is a greater fighter p4p,.... he is great because of his natural disadvantages in size never stopped him, anyway if you read through the thread I think you'll agree that this thread is a hatchet job.

fitefanSHO
08-16-2011, 03:56 PM
You know I like George mate, but this whole thread has been one long kicking of a great man and some posters are simply mad,,.... a lot of people are grinding their axe on a great man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I'll be damned if I'll sit by silent,... when my poster mate Marchegiano finds this thread and start reading some of these posts, he'll flip, Marciano is his favourite fighter,................ And I think Rocky is a greater fighter p4p,.... he is great because of his natural disadvantages in size never stopped him, anyway if you read through the thread I think you'll agree that this thread is a hatchet job.

Dude, I'm from Brockton. :boxing:

McGoorty
08-16-2011, 04:55 PM
Dude, I'm from Brockton. :boxing:
Nothing directed at you mate, it was directed at some of the trolls, I had just been on one of my threads and had some Ultra-troll on there from NSB, and had been telling the troll where to go, if I knew how to do an ignore list I'd ban him from my threads. I did know you were from Brockton, but I know you, and I know you're a fair poster. I just wish there wasn't as many trolls, you know what they think of all Pre-ALI fighters and the lopsided vote is simply because they want to discredit all the greats.

Forza
08-16-2011, 05:21 PM
Foremans level of competition was way higher though his career and he did become champ again when he was an old man, So I'd say he achieved more.......

If they were to fight Marciano would get destroyed............

Higher, but in context not "way" higher.

Greatest1942
08-17-2011, 01:06 AM
Not sure who I'd choose, but I will say something that's rarely said about Foreman...

His performance in the Ali fight was one of the worst I've ever seen. He literally looked like a guy who had just started boxing. So, for all those who cite his blowouts of Norton and Frazier as proof of his awesomeness, the Ali fight showed his lameness.

Top 10 Foreman beat

1. Joe Frazier
2. Ken Norton
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ron Lyle
5. George Chuvalo
6. Alex Stewart
7. Gregorio Peralta
8. Adilson Rodrigues
9. Dwight Qawi
10. Boone Kirkman


top 10 Rocky beat
1. Joe Walcott
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Archie Moore
4. Joe Louis
5. Rex Layne
6. Roland LaStraza
7. Harry Kid Mattews
8. Don ****le
9.Lee Savold
10. Bernie Reynolds

Foreman has the bigger name in Frazier no doubt. I consider Walcoot and Norton a wash. Charles was a better heavy by some margin than Moorer. I will pick Moore over Peralta anyday. Louis was not great at that stage but still a good boxer, was he equal to Lyle...I don't know, but I will give edge to Lyle.

Layne was atleast at the time he fought Rocky as good as Chuvalo he beat better names and was a very good puncher.
LaStraza is undertaed and much better than Stewart or Qawi. As was Savold better than Kirkman and the like.

This whole Marciano did not face any competition is overblown, he fought more top 2 ranked contenders (total record 9-0 (8 KO)
than Foreman (total record 4-3 (4 KO)), beat them all and has the better top 10 wins. Foreman has the single biggest win as also the worst performance of the two.

I think we should go by what they achieved in their eras...In that I think it depends on the way you look at it...It isn't "Foreman and by a very large margin"

Mintcar923
08-17-2011, 02:06 AM
Whether you're a Marciano hater or just a Foreman lover know that Rocky was the only Heavyweight Champ to retire undefeated at 49 wins and to never lose a single fight. The only thing a fighter should be asked to be a candidate for the GOAT is to decisively defeat the best of his era and Rocky Marciano did just that. There is no bias here. Although, he did win the title on my birthday he is not my favorite ATG. But yes, I like George, too...

Barnburner
08-17-2011, 04:24 AM
When making a list would you take into account Rocky's weight deficite? :thinking:

Greatest1942
08-17-2011, 05:36 AM
When making a list would you take into account Rocky's weight deficite? :thinking:

I don't...His achievments are enough to merit a place in top10.

McGoorty
08-17-2011, 11:03 AM
Top 10 Foreman beat

1. Joe Frazier
2. Ken Norton
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ron Lyle
5. George Chuvalo
6. Alex Stewart
7. Gregorio Peralta
8. Adilson Rodrigues
9. Dwight Qawi
10. Boone Kirkman


top 10 Rocky beat
1. Joe Walcott
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Archie Moore
4. Joe Louis
5. Rex Layne
6. Roland LaStraza
7. Harry Kid Mattews
8. Don ****le
9.Lee Savold
10. Bernie Reynolds

Foreman has the bigger name in Frazier no doubt. I consider Walcoot and Norton a wash. Charles was a better heavy by some margin than Moorer. I will pick Moore over Peralta anyday. Louis was not great at that stage but still a good boxer, was he equal to Lyle...I don't know, but I will give edge to Lyle.

Layne was atleast at the time he fought Rocky as good as Chuvalo he beat better names and was a very good puncher.
LaStraza is undertaed and much better than Stewart or Qawi. As was Savold better than Kirkman and the like.

This whole Marciano did not face any competition is overblown, he fought more top 2 ranked contenders (total record 9-0 (8 KO)
than Foreman (total record 4-3 (4 KO)), beat them all and has the better top 10 wins. Foreman has the single biggest win as also the worst performance of the two.

I think we should go by what they achieved in their eras...In that I think it depends on the way you look at it...It isn't "Foreman and by a very large margin"
That was a GREAAAAAAAATTT, GREAT post, thanks for that list mate there have been these Bald and unjust things said about Rocky. That list shows just how outrageous those claims are..... I think you just blew away the opposition...... a green pt. coming your way. As for Moorer, a blown up LHW would still get Killed by Foreman,... and George is old now. Moorer is no where near as good as Charles at either HW or LHW. and Layne, La Starza and Harry Matthews would all be deadly today.