View Full Version : Gene Tunney vs Joe Frazier...........


Stone Roses!
07-18-2010, 06:21 AM
Tunney had an iron chin, terrific footwork and lateral movement, a great jab and imo is the personification of the 'sweet science'.

Frazier was your typical pressure fighter. A merciless body puncher who possessed a dynamite Left Hook and a 'suspect chin'.

How do you see this fight playing out?

IMO I see Tunney dancing his way to a 15 round decision.

boxing boy
07-18-2010, 02:47 PM
I see Tunney winning the early rounds,and Frazier to start smoking in the middle rounds and going to the body with some wicked shots.Then going to the head and body fighting at a very fast pace,not giving Tunney room and time to throw his punches.

Frazier starting to wear Tunney down in the late middle rounds,and stopping him in rounds 10-13.

Tunney didn't have anything to keep Frazier off of him.Frazier fought at a pace that would wear down Tunney,combined with his deadly body shots.It would just be a matter of time that Tunney would slow down,and then it would become a feast for Smokin' Joe Frazier.

CarlosG815
07-18-2010, 03:39 PM
Suspect chin? lol, people who say that crack me up.

Frazier would KO Tunney inside of 3 rounds, probably round 1.

Obama
07-18-2010, 03:43 PM
Frazier is just a much bigger and harder punching Greb. Tunney's up ****'s creek in this one.

Megamasterking
07-18-2010, 04:08 PM
Although i do respect Tunney, i think Frazier would be right there in his face throwing bombs, how many left hooks "one of the ATG if not the best left hook" from Frazier can Tunney take ? I see a KO 10 by Frazier...

JAB5239
07-19-2010, 01:46 AM
I see Tunney winning the early rounds,and Frazier to start smoking in the middle rounds and going to the body with some wicked shots.Then going to the head and body fighting at a very fast pace,not giving Tunney room and time to throw his punches.

Frazier starting to wear Tunney down in the late middle rounds,and stopping him in rounds 10-13.

Tunney didn't have anything to keep Frazier off of him.Frazier fought at a pace that would wear down Tunney,combined with his deadly body shots.It would just be a matter of time that Tunney would slow down,and then it would become a feast for Smokin' Joe Frazier.

Co-sign. Good post.

prinzemanspopa
07-19-2010, 04:43 AM
To be honest,I just don't see how frazier could beat Gene Tunney.


frazier is too thick,crude and limited to beat a truly well schooled boxer like this.


Grunting,snorting and waving your head around like a remedial student may work against a boxer coming off of a long layoff.but it's not going to work against a fresh,sharp,skilled boxer like Gene Tunney.



Too much skill and too much class.

Stone Roses!
07-19-2010, 07:19 AM
Frazier is just a much bigger and harder punching Greb. Tunney's up ****'s creek in this one.

How did you come to that conclusion?

How many Greb fights have you seen?

Or did you base your judgement purely on articles?

If so, I will discount your comment as nothing but an irrelevant assumption.

Stone Roses!
07-19-2010, 07:24 AM
Suspect chin? lol, people who say that crack me up.

Frazier would KO Tunney inside of 3 rounds, probably round 1.

Funny thing is this post cracked me up too. A past prime Jack Dempsey is still a much bigger puncher than Smoking Joe. He was also arguably a much more effective pressure fighter than Smoking Joe also. We all know how both Tunney's fights with Dempsey turned out.

Yet you beleive Frazier steamrolls Tunney in 1 round?

Laughable.

Also to touch on the point of Frazier's suspect chin. Without a doubt his chin is suspect. How many devastating punchers did he fight in the Golden Era of the Heavyweight division which consisted of some of the biggest punchers in history and how did he fair against them?

Stone Roses!
07-19-2010, 07:28 AM
I see Tunney winning the early rounds,and Frazier to start smoking in the middle rounds and going to the body with some wicked shots.Then going to the head and body fighting at a very fast pace,not giving Tunney room and time to throw his punches.

Frazier starting to wear Tunney down in the late middle rounds,and stopping him in rounds 10-13.

Tunney didn't have anything to keep Frazier off of him.Frazier fought at a pace that would wear down Tunney,combined with his deadly body shots.It would just be a matter of time that Tunney would slow down,and then it would become a feast for Smokin' Joe Frazier.

Incorrect. He had a brilliant stiff jab and terrific lateral movement. A prime Tunney had better footwork and lateral movement than anyone Smoking Joe ever fought, including the 71' version Ali.

prinzemanspopa
07-19-2010, 09:40 AM
Or did you base your judgement purely on articles?





No doubt his own articles. :lol1:


Dunce:Master of copying and pasting other articles and passing them off as his own.




Also to touch on the point of Frazier's suspect chin. Without a doubt his chin is suspect. How many devastating punchers did he fight in the Golden Era of the Heavyweight division which consisted of some of the biggest punchers in history and how did he fair against them?




Nah,you're just hating,man.Foreman was obviously just a bad matchup for Joe.


Yeah,that's right,just a bad matchup in style.That must explain it all.


Just because he was knocked down six times in just two rounds doesn't mean that his chin wasn't the GOAT.


All iron jawed fighters get knocked down around a dozen times in their career.

BennyST
07-19-2010, 10:15 AM
Suspect chin? lol, people who say that crack me up.

Frazier would KO Tunney inside of 3 rounds, probably round 1.

I know! Where does this suspect chin rumour stem from? Frazier had a great chin.

CarlosG815
07-19-2010, 11:59 AM
No doubt his own articles. :lol1:


Dunce:Master of copying and pasting other articles and passing them off as his own.








Nah,you're just hating,man.Foreman was obviously just a bad matchup for Joe.


Yeah,that's right,just a bad matchup in style.That must explain it all.


Just because he was knocked down six times in just two rounds doesn't mean that his chin wasn't the GOAT.


All iron jawed fighters get knocked down around a dozen times in their career.

He took multiple licks from the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time and got up after every single one. He also took massive amounts of punishment from Muhammad Ali and never went down, that isn't a suspect chin, that's a granite chin.

A soft chin is a guy who gets hit with one good shot, goes down, and stays down, and does that throughout his career, like Lennox Lewis.

boxing boy
07-19-2010, 04:11 PM
Incorrect. He had a brilliant stiff jab and terrific lateral movement. A prime Tunney had better footwork and lateral movement than anyone Smoking Joe ever fought, including the 71' version Ali.

I agree Tunney had a brilliant stiff jab and terrific lateral movement.

But that great jab of Tunney could not keep Frazier off of him.Frazier would walk right through it.Frazier was also very good at slipping good left jabs.Just ask Muhammad Ali,who said Frazier was very hard to hit with his left jab.And he just walked through the other left jabs that Muhammad Ali did land.

Yes,Tunney had great lateral movement,and that's why i said Tunney would win the early rounds.But the relentless pressure that Smokin' Joe puts on you,and the incredible pace that he fought at would eventually slow you down.Frazier would be able to get Tunney on the ropes by the middle rounds,and landing his deadly left hook to the body would slow Tunney down.And the incredible pace would slow Tunney down by the late middle rounds.It would then be feast time for Smokin' Joe Frazier,stopping Tunney in rounds 10-13.

Stone Roses!
07-20-2010, 01:58 AM
I agree Tunney had a brilliant stiff jab and terrific lateral movement.

But that great jab of Tunney could not keep Frazier off of him.Frazier would walk right through it.Frazier was also very good at slipping good left jabs.Just ask Muhammad Ali,who said Frazier was very hard to hit with his left jab.And he just walked through the other left jabs that Muhammad Ali did land.

Yes,Tunney had great lateral movement,and that's why i said Tunney would win the early rounds.But the relentless pressure that Smokin' Joe puts on you,and the incredible pace that he fought at would eventually slow you down.Frazier would be able to get Tunney on the ropes by the middle rounds,and landing his deadly left hook to the body would slow Tunney down.And the incredible pace would slow Tunney down by the late middle rounds.It would then be feast time for Smokin' Joe Frazier,stopping Tunney in rounds 10-13.
Alright my man. If that is how you envisage the fight to be, fairplay to ya.

Stone Roses!
07-20-2010, 02:06 AM
He took multiple licks from the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time and got up after every single one. He also took massive amounts of punishment from Muhammad Ali and never went down, that isn't a suspect chin, that's a granite chin.

A soft chin is a guy who gets hit with one good shot, goes down, and stays down, and does that throughout his career, like Lennox Lewis.

WOW!!! Now Hold on just a minute. Did you just claim Frazier had a 'granite' chin? Apparently being dropped half a dozen times in a couple rounds qualifies you as having a 'granite' chin. Talk about using the term 'freely'. If Frazier's chin is made of 'granite', I guess Chuvalo is made of 'diamond'?


LMFAO!!!!

Why did you fail to answer my question, good sir?

Also to touch on the point of Frazier's suspect chin. Without a doubt his chin is suspect. How many devastating punchers did he fight in the Golden Era of the Heavyweight division which consisted of some of the biggest punchers in history and how did he fair against them?

I want your 'expert' analysis. ^^^^^^

What are the chances of Frazier making it past 2 rounds against the likes of, I don't know, umm, Ron Lyle or Ernie Shavers, just to name a couple?

JAB5239
07-20-2010, 02:42 AM
What are the chances of Frazier making it past 2 rounds against the likes of, I don't know, umm, Ron Lyle or Ernie Shavers, just to name a couple?

I wouldn't call Frazier's chin granite, but it was solid. As far as Lyle and Shavers go, both were beaten by much lesser fighters than Joe Frazier and both had guys with much worse whiskers than Joe's last the distance. Shavers would need to be extremely lucky and land a huge shot early or Frazier would decimate him. His chin was suspect and he had lousy stamina. Lyle's power is simply over rated in my opinion. As I've already stated, much lesser fighters than Joe went the distance with him. Much lesser fighters beat him, and he never ko'd any top heavyweight with Frazier's grit. That said, he was a decent fighter and a tough guy but at least a level below Frazier. His stamina was also suspect at times. His toughness would allow him to hang for 7 or 8 rounds but Fraziers relentless pressure and higher work rate would doom him by the 9th in my opinion.

Stone Roses!
07-20-2010, 02:53 AM
I wouldn't call Frazier's chin granite, but it was solid. As far as Lyle and Shavers go, both were beaten by much lesser fighters than Joe Frazier and both had guys with much worse whiskers than Joe's last the distance. Shavers would need to be extremely lucky and land a huge shot early or Frazier would decimate him. His chin was suspect and he had lousy stamina. Lyle's power is simply over rated in my opinion. As I've already stated, much lesser fighters than Joe went the distance with him. Much lesser fighters beat him, and he never ko'd any top heavyweight with Frazier's grit. That said, he was a decent fighter and a tough guy but at least a level below Frazier. His stamina was also suspect at times. His toughness would allow him to hang for 7 or 8 rounds but Fraziers relentless pressure and higher work rate would doom him by the 9th in my opinion.
Shavers chin was indeed suspect and I, much like yourself, believe whoever lands the first big punch will be the victor.

I do not agree with your opinion that Lyle's power was overrated, I believe you made a thread about this before also. Lyle would drop Frazier multiple times and come away with the victory.

'Much lesser' Fighters than Joe went the distance with George Foreman. Frazier's pressure style is built for a dynamite puncher which Lyle certainly was, contrary to your opinion. Lyle was able to drop Foreman a few times, and Foreman certainly has a 'solid' chin, if anything.

Frazier doesn't see the 3rd round against Lyle, for his constant pressure to even take effect.

titanium
07-20-2010, 03:12 AM
Frazier would cut down the ring and make Tunney do a "Bob Foster"! Something that the aged Dempsey at that stage of his career wasn't able to do.

JAB5239
07-20-2010, 03:35 AM
Shavers chin was indeed suspect and I, much like yourself, believe whoever lands the first big punch will be the victor.

I do not agree with your opinion that Lyle's power was overrated, I believe you made a thread about this before also. Lyle would drop Frazier multiple times and come away with the victory.

'Much lesser' Fighters than Joe went the distance with George Foreman. Frazier's pressure style is built for a dynamite puncher which Lyle certainly was, contrary to your opinion. Lyle was able to drop Foreman a few times, and Foreman certainly has a 'solid' chin, if anything.

Frazier doesn't see the 3rd round against Lyle, for his constant pressure to even take effect.

Look at it this way, who did Lyle ever beat that was as good as Joe? We know Frazier beat better fighters than Lyle, right? People want to use the Foreman fight as an example of how a Lyle-Frazier fight might go. Problem is Lyle didn't fight anything like Foreman. George threw looping upper cuts and hooks when Frazier was bobbing down and chopping punches when he was coming up. Lyle fights in more a classical style using his jab and throwing straight punches and hooks. This would allow Frazier to get underneath and punish him much the way he did Ali in their first fight. I think we can both agree Lyle was NEVER as fast, tough or as good a fighter as Ali that night (even with his layoff). Lyle also had the bad habit of backing straight up with his chin unprotected which can be seen in many of his fights. That is suicide against a fighter who throws possibly the greatest heavyweight hook ever.

As far as Lyles power.....I think its good, but over rated for the reasons I already touched on. Ok, he dropped Foreman. He couldn't keep him there though and a lighter punching Ali put him down for the count. What does that say? :dunno:

Stone Roses!
07-20-2010, 04:03 AM
Look at it this way, who did Lyle ever beat that was as good as Joe? We know Frazier beat better fighters than Lyle, right? People want to use the Foreman fight as an example of how a Lyle-Frazier fight might go. Problem is Lyle didn't fight anything like Foreman. George threw looping upper cuts and hooks when Frazier was bobbing down and chopping punches when he was coming up. Lyle fights in more a classical style using his jab and throwing straight punches and hooks. This would allow Frazier to get underneath and punish him much the way he did Ali in their first fight. I think we can both agree Lyle was NEVER as fast, tough or as good a fighter as Ali that night (even with his layoff). Lyle also had the bad habit of backing straight up with his chin unprotected which can be seen in many of his fights. That is suicide against a fighter who throws possibly the greatest heavyweight hook ever.

As far as Lyles power.....I think its good, but over rated for the reasons I already touched on. Ok, he dropped Foreman. He couldn't keep him there though and a lighter punching Ali put him down for the count. What does that say? :dunno:

Lyle never beat anyone who was as good as Joe, although he has a few respectable wins ie Shavers, Mathis, Bonavena.

Fact is, Lyle was one of the biggest punchers in his era, certainly Top 5. Frazier only fought 1 fighter who had more punching power than Ron Lyle and he showed me nothing in those 2 bouts that will give me a reason to believe he would be able to handle Ron Lyle's power.

You say, Lyle's power is overrated, well then Frazier's chin is overrated. Here's a fighter who was dropped 6 times in 2 rounds and that is what certain posters on here believe to be a 'granite' chin? By that estimation his chin is certainly overrated.

Frazier's come forward, bullish, swarming style is a match made in heaven for a devastating puncher. Lyle doesn't need to 'have' Foreman's style to KO Frazier.

JAB5239
07-20-2010, 04:13 AM
Lyle never beat anyone who was as good as Joe, although he has a few respectable wins ie Shavers, Mathis, Bonavena.

Fact is, Lyle was one of the biggest punchers in his era, certainly Top 5. Frazier only fought 1 fighter who had more punching power than Ron Lyle and he showed me nothing in those 2 bouts that will give me a reason to believe he would be able to handle Ron Lyle's power.

You say, Lyle's power is overrated, well then Frazier's chin is overrated. Here's a fighter who was dropped 6 times in 2 rounds and that is what certain posters on here believe to be a 'granite' chin? By that estimation his chin is certainly overrated.

Frazier's come forward, bullish, swarming style is a match made in heaven for a devastating puncher. Lyle doesn't need to 'have' Foreman's style to KO Frazier.

I don't consider Lyle that much more a puncher than Bonovena or Chuvalo and they weren't able to handle Frazier before he hit his stride.

It's neither her nor there, though. When comparing a fantasy fight I like to use the best versions of each fighter. In this case Im using Frazier from the first Ali fight. What fight do you think was Lyles best, and why?

Stone Roses!
07-20-2010, 05:05 AM
I don't consider Lyle that much more a puncher than Bonovena or Chuvalo and they weren't able to handle Frazier before he hit his stride.

It's neither her nor there, though. When comparing a fantasy fight I like to use the best versions of each fighter. In this case Im using Frazier from the first Ali fight. What fight do you think was Lyles best, and why?
Personally, I believe Lyle's best performance was his fight with Ali. It was a very close fight upto the TKO.

In case of fantasy fights, I like to compare certain traits, skills and styles and not how they faired against certain fighters.

Again, Frazier showed me nothing in his 2 fights with Foreman that will lead me to believe he can handle a Lyle bomb.

boxing boy
07-20-2010, 03:44 PM
Personally, I believe Lyle's best performance was his fight with Ali. It was a very close fight upto the TKO.

In case of fantasy fights, I like to compare certain traits, skills and styles and not how they faired against certain fighters.

Again, Frazier showed me nothing in his 2 fights with Foreman that will lead me to believe he can handle a Lyle bomb.

You do know the circumstances surronding the Foreman-Lyle fight?

Besides Foreman not fighting for 15 months.

Without getting into much detail Foreman was not mentally or physically fit to get into the ring with anybody,let alone Ron Lyle.Foreman was lucky to be 65% of himself when he fought Ron Lyle.A mentally fit and physically in shape Foreman would have destoyed Lyle easily without even getting hurt,let alone going down.

If your calculating Ron Lyle's performance against THAT George Foreman,you picked the wrong fight.I can get into alot more detail of how Foreman was mentally and physically for that fight.Not to mention not fighting for 15 months.

Now lets get back to the Frazier-Tunney fight my friend.:boxing:

JAB5239
07-21-2010, 03:35 AM
Personally, I believe Lyle's best performance was his fight with Ali. It was a very close fight upto the TKO.

Lets also remember that Ali came in at a career high in weight and was on the decline. frazier beat him in '71 when he was a much, much better fighter.

In case of fantasy fights, I like to compare certain traits, skills and styles and not how they faired against certain fighters.

Again, Frazier showed me nothing in his 2 fights with Foreman that will lead me to believe he can handle a Lyle bomb.

Lyle fought nothing like Foreman though so I can't understand your comparison. Why not make a comparison using the Ali fights, or better yet Jerry Quarry?

Stone Roses!
07-21-2010, 03:41 AM
Lyle fought nothing like Foreman though so I can't understand your comparison. Why not make a comparison using the Ali fights, or better yet Jerry Quarry?
I never made the suggestion that Lyle and Foreman fought anything alike. I made the connection between their punching power and Frazier's inbability to take a dynamite punch.

Lets also remember that Ali came in at a career high in weight and was on the decline. frazier beat him in '71 when he was a much, much better fighter.

If we're going to use that as an excuse I can easliy say that Frazier fought a version of Ali that was suffering from ring rust and was still trying to adapt to a new style of fighting since his reflexes and speed had faded just a tad.

And the version of Ali that Frazier defeated wasn't much, much, much better than the version of Ali that Lyle fought.

JAB5239
07-21-2010, 04:03 AM
I never made the suggestion that Lyle and Foreman fought anything alike. I made the connection between their punching power and Frazier's inbability to take a dynamite punch.

Yet Frazier kept getting back up, right? If you're going to this I will counter with Lyle's inability to take a body punch based on his fight with Cooney.

If we're going to use that as an excuse I can easliy say that Frazier fought a version of Ali that was suffering from ring rust and was still trying to adapt to a new style of fighting since his reflexes and speed had faded just a tad.

Ali had just destroyed two top rated contenders and his style had really not changed much at that point besides losing a bit of speed. If you watch the Terrell and Williams fights before he was banned he had already taken to sitting down on his punches more.

And the version of Ali that Frazier defeated wasn't much, much, much better than the version of Ali that Lyle fought.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this and think most others would too my man.

Stone Roses!
07-21-2010, 04:54 AM
I wholeheartedly disagree with this and think most others would too my man.
Yet Frazier kept getting back up, right? If you're going to this I will counter with Lyle's inability to take a body punch based on his fight with Cooney.

No. You are assuming comparisons I never made. I made the connection because of Frazier's inability to take Foreman's power. Lyle's Power is right up their with the best of the era.

Ali had just destroyed two top rated contenders and his style had really not changed much at that point besides losing a bit of speed. If you watch the Terrell and Williams fights before he was banned he had already taken to sitting down on his punches more.

Ali defeated Quarry and Bonavena who were both not on Frazier's level in terms of ability or class. Truth is, if you watch the Bonavena fight, you must be blind not to realise that Ali was never the same. He lost a fair amount of his footwork and was getting tagged far more often. Again, Ali was still learning to adapt to these sudden changes when he got in the ring with Frazier.

Ali sat down on his punches vs Terrel because he wanted to punish Terrel for reasons we already know. He sat down on his punches vs Williams cause Williams was a shot fighter and Ali was magic on that night.

JAB5239
07-21-2010, 07:32 PM
No. You are assuming comparisons I never made. I made the connection because of Frazier's inability to take Foreman's power. Lyle's Power is right up their with the best of the era.

Chuvalo and Bonovena were the equal of Lyle or close to it and neither could handle Frazier. Why are their fights not used as a comparison?

Ali defeated Quarry and Bonavena who were both not on Frazier's level in terms of ability or class. Truth is, if you watch the Bonavena fight, you must be blind not to realise that Ali was never the same. He lost a fair amount of his footwork and was getting tagged far more often. Again, Ali was still learning to adapt to these sudden changes when he got in the ring with Frazier.


He was still a better fighter for Frazier 1 than Lyle, and some of this can be attributed to Fraziers relentless pressure and ability to cut off the ring.

Ali sat down on his punches vs Terrel because he wanted to punish Terrel for reasons we already know. He sat down on his punches vs Williams cause Williams was a shot fighter and Ali was magic on that night.

While I agree with this, a case can be made and argued that Ali had already started to slow down at this point and was adapting by becoming a stronger puncher. I can cite many cases where a fighters style changed or slowed down while in his prime.

Stone Roses!
07-22-2010, 03:20 AM
While I agree with this, a case can be made and argued that Ali had already started to slow down at this point and was adapting by becoming a stronger puncher. I can cite many cases where a fighters style changed or slowed down while in his prime.
I don't believe so. Ali showed no signs of slowing down vs either Terrel or Williams imo.

Chuvalo and Bonovena were the equal of Lyle or close to it and neither could handle Frazier. Why are their fights not used as a comparison?

They are not used comparatively because neither possess the power of Lyle. Oscar gave Frazier hell and I can imagine what a harder punching Lyle will do.

He was still a better fighter for Frazier 1 than Lyle, and some of this can be attributed to Fraziers relentless pressure and ability to cut off the ring.

Still doesn't change the fact Ali was adapting to his faded reflexes when Smoking Joe fought him.

rsf
07-22-2010, 11:36 AM
frazier for me wins this by late stoppage or ud

louis54
07-25-2010, 08:11 PM
tunney by unanimous decision.