I like to post a list every now and again, just to feel involved in some sort of way. I change my top 10 constantly, however, so take this with a brick of salt.

10. Lennox Lewis - He was the last to officially clean up the division, though his wins against all-time greats Holyfield, and Tyson are skewed, given their ages. He was a sound technical fighter, he had good power, and given his size, would have been formidable in any era. He was one of the few who actually got better with age. He fought some of his best fights in his 30's, which is extremely rare, especially for a heavyweight. This is a temporary placeholder at #10, however, as this spot changes more frequently for me than any other on the list.

9. Jack Dempsey - One of the original true terrors. He was smaller than a lot of guys, but he tore them down like it was his job. Well...I guess it technically was. He was dominant in his era, and although he encountered one piece of kryptonite during the course of his career (Tunney), that can't erase one of the true greats from history's list.

8. Charles "Sonny" Liston - Perhaps the most feared fighter of the entire century, Liston tore his way to the top, avenging his only decision loss (Marshall), and destroying then heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson twice, in a total of two rounds. I don't rate him any higher than 8 for now, however, as he only successfully defended his title once, and then failed to splash back onto the scene. He was a fierce, freak of nature, with an incredible reach, and a jackhammer jab.

7. Mike Tyson - A perpetual buzzsaw at his best, a sad, sub-human at his worst, "Iron" Mike was perhaps the single most exciting fighter in heavyweight history. He tore through the division on his way to the crown, decimating all, and leaving little to question when he swept the championship belts onto his shoulders as a mere boy amongst men. Truly, the last heavyweight to hold the undisputed crown for any significant length of time. Were it not for his odd personna and tragic private life, he could have been discussed much higher on many lists. He had rare physical talents, perhaps not seen in any other fighter; he possessed speed, power, and elusiveness in dangerous supply. Given how he turned out, however, this is the absolute highest I can rate him.

6. Joe Frazier - The hardest working individual. The man didn't lift weights, he was small for a heavyweight, he was a converted lefty, he was awkward, and at times slow. "Smokin" Joe Frazier was a warrior, a true battler who brought 100% from the opening introductions to the final bell. Perhaps my favorite fighter of all-time, he simply got there by out-hustling his opponents. A man with a heart as big as the moon, he could have been the greatest, were he not overshadowed by two others from the same era.

5. George Foreman - I place the grillmaster in the middle of my list, because his accomplishments weren't amazing, having only successfully defended the title for two professional bouts, and containing the largest list of tomato cans in grocery store history. Even so, the man was an absolute house. He even put my #6 boxer to shame, by knocking him to the canvas half-a-dozen times in two rounds. When it seemed as though he was merely a power slugger who's career never truly got there, he comes back, after more than nine years away, and slugs his way to the top to win the belt 20 years after losing it! He showed heart, and tactical boxing skill; two qualities sorely lacking from his dominant prime.

4. Larry Holmes - The man won 48 consecutive fights, and defended the title for 7 years before finally succumbing to age and wear. Even so, he went on to have a fairly successful extended career lasting well into his 50's. Perhaps the best pure boxer, with the most complete game on the list, the "Easton Assassin" is often underrated and dismissed as a shadow to the fighters of the 60's and 70's. I know one thing's for sure: he would perhaps be the single most difficult opponent for anyone at any point in history. He could come back from devastating power (see: Shavers 1 & 2), turn a fight around in the midst of losing (see: Witherspoon), and deliver a combination of speed, power, courage, and stamina that many of his predecessors couldn't boast of containing in such quantities together.

3. Rocky Marciano - The only undefeated heavyweight champion, to retire undefeated. 49-0. Nothing else needs to be said. It doesn't matter who he faced, or how sloppy he was getting there, the man simply won. It's all he knew how to do. He couldn't be put away, and he had stamina to punch through walls for 20+ rounds. I rate him higher than do many other boxing historians, but he has accomplished something that may---no, probably will never happen again.

2. Muhammad Ali - In a head-to-head competition, Ali beats nearly everyone on this list without too much trouble. Given the awkward style matchup, I'd say that he easily handles #1 & #3. This isn't a vs. list, however; it's the greatest champions. As a champion, he was superb. It's a shame that most of his time as champ was spent when his gifts of speed, fluidity, and elusiveness were gone. There is no doubt that Ali has had the biggest impact on the sport, and on particular groups of cultural society in America. "The Greatest" was taken from the sport during his prime years. Some would say it was a judgment for speaking out against the One True God, while others would claim that the government was out to get him. Whatever the case, he still overcame the loss of his swift feet to outsmart, and outwill his way back to the top, 10 years after accomplishing it the first time. He has left us with some of the best, and perhaps the most memorable moments in sports history.

1. Joe Louis - He defended the title 25 times over the course of a 12-year stretch. He avenged his first loss in the most impressive fashion seen before or since. He was sound in all aspects of the game. To have a "prime" last as long as he did is unfathomable by today's standards. He was simply the best, for the longest period of time, and didn't truly suffer a loss except while he was green (which he avenged in brutal fashion), and again, while he was well beyond his best years against Ezzard Charles and Rocky Marciano. Those names are hardly the tags of a couple of bums or journeymen. Joe Louis even took 4 years off to serve his country, and he still returned in very impressive fashion. The man was the most complete fighter in heavyweight history. The "Brown Bomber" loved the sport of boxing, and aided in bringing it to the forefront of all sports. Even though he would match up poorly to my #2, his accomplishments inside and outside of the ring are more than enough to earn him the #1 spot, on my list of the greatest heavyweights of all-time.

Well, there you have it. A little dramatic, a little wishy-washy, but it's my current list. Stay tuned when I'll probably change it in three days time. :boxing:

#1 tyson, when he was dedicated he could take out anybody. ANYBODY

there is a reason why people nut hug tyson, just watch the quality of his fights compared to "Joe Louis" (who just knocked out white farmers who's workout routine consisted of drinking beer)

#1 tyson, when he was dedicated he could take out anybody. ANYBODY

there is a reason why people nut hug tyson, just watch the quality of his fights compared to "Joe Louis" (who just knocked out white farmers who's workout routine consisted of drinking beer)

There are many fighters who, when dedicated can take out anybody. Tyson isn't special in that respect.:cool:

There are many fighters who, when dedicated can take out anybody. Tyson isn't special in that respect.:cool:

oh yea I completely agree, but he looked the coolest doing it!

He Brought Knockouts to a decade were Unanimous Decission was Exciting! he was IMO the most exciting fighter ever and would of had the same inpact in any era!!

1. James J. Jeffries. Untouchable when the game was most brutal.
2. Joe Louis. Longest reign.
3. Muhammad Ali. Most charismatic and multiple championships.
4. Rocky Marciano. Undefeated.
5. Jack Dempsey. His ferocity was no act.
6. Jack Johnson. Only man to beat Jeffries, although Jeffries was way old.
7. John L. Sullivan. Started it all.
8. Larry Holmes. Great record and long reign, but average competition.
9. George Foreman. All time puncher. Regained title in his 40s.
10. Evander Holyfield. Big heart. All time chin. Multiple championships.

Hon. Mention: Lennox Lewis (still waiting to see if he can eclipse Holyfield)
Joe Frazier
Ezzard Charles

great thread and one that is very subjective depending on your own personal taste, your age and the amount of action you have actually seen of each fighter... for what its worth my top 10 would be:

1) Joe Louis: a beast of a man with unbelievable physical attributes for his time. Great power and ring generalship.

2) Ali: Not really much to say about this guy that hasn't already been said. amazing handspeed, great combinations, chin, the list goes on

3) lennox lewis: On his day i would pick lennox to beat any heavy in any era. a wonderful jab, great right hand and uppercut. his chin is severely under-rated, the 2 shots from mcCall and Rahman would of laid out the majority of heavies. in 10/20 years people will appreciate how great lennox was

4) Larry Holmes: probably the best jab of all time and a great, dominant heavyweight champion

5) Sonny Liston: Probably the most intimidating man i have ever seen!! destructive force and very under-rated my many i feel

6) Frazier: Unbelievable heart and courage, he possessed great skills and his hooks were very dangerous. involved in one of the greatest fights of all time with Ali.

7) George Foreman: ferocious, mean, devastating power and one of the most intimidating men to ever step into a ring. he would give any heavyweight of any era a great fight, and if i could produce a dream match-up it would be between him and lennox lewis.

8) Rocky Marciano: undefeated as a professional and possessed great power for his time. Some might wonder why he is so low on my list. I just feel due to his size he would not be able to compete with the bigger guys. But undoubted heart and skill and deserves a top 10 place.

9) Evander Holyfield: he's gave us so many great fights which will live in the memory. aside from the steroid scandal, the way he managed to compete at heavyweight with his lack of size was incredible. He has beena fearless warrior and a great heavyweight champion

10) jack Johnson: I have not seen much of Johnson but from what i have seen i rate him highly. I intend to download some more of his fights and after i might rank him higher

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
James J. Jeffries
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes
Lennox Lewis

1. James J. Jeffries. Untouchable when the game was most brutal.
2. Joe Louis. Longest reign.
3. Muhammad Ali. Most charismatic and multiple championships.
4. Rocky Marciano. Undefeated.
5. Jack Dempsey. His ferocity was no act.
6. Jack Johnson. Only man to beat Jeffries, although Jeffries was way old.
7. John L. Sullivan. Started it all.
8. Larry Holmes. Great record and long reign, but average competition.
9. George Foreman. All time puncher. Regained title in his 40s.
10. Evander Holyfield. Big heart. All time chin. Multiple championships.

Hon. Mention: Lennox Lewis (still waiting to see if he can eclipse Holyfield)
Joe Frazier
Ezzard Charles

I don't really give Johnson much credit for beating Jeffries who had 6 years on his alfalfa farm, balooning to over 300 pounds, and gets dragged back with out so much as a tune-up fight and still goes 14 rounds before his corner throws in the towel.

Just remeber, it's all opinion.

#1 tyson, when he was dedicated he could take out anybody. ANYBODY

there is a reason why people nut hug tyson, just watch the quality of his fights compared to "Joe Louis" (who just knocked out white farmers who's workout routine consisted of drinking beer)

C'mon, do you want me to list the BUMS that Tyson beat? And the BUM that knocked him the hell out IN HIS PRIME, Buster Douglas! Oh, but Mike was on his period that day, he had broken a nail, etc, etc.

C'mon, do you want me to list the BUMS that Tyson beat? And the BUM that knocked him the hell out IN HIS PRIME, Buster Douglas! Oh, but Mike was on his period that day, he had broken a nail, etc, etc.
It just kills you Tyson haters that there was a good excuse why the fights you all like to use as examples, were not against a prime Tyson, but a fallen champion. It was his fall that allowed him to be beaten. Mike Tyson beat himself period. But no that doesn't help our case so we don't look at it that way. LOL

It just kills you Tyson haters that there was a good excuse why the fights you all like to use as examples, were not against a prime Tyson, but a fallen champion. It was his fall that allowed him to be beaten. Mike Tyson beat himself period. But no that doesn't help our case so we don't look at it that way. LOL

I think them_apples needs to be given a boxing exam. If he cannot answer 10 questions correctly regarding fighters who existed prior 1985 then he should be expelled from this section of the forum. :poke: :banned:

It is called 'Boxing History' afterall, not Tyson 101. Just a thought.

Ross on the other hand just needs to be chained to the radiator and forced to watch a nonstop marathon of Rocky Marciano films until he concedes I am right in every aspect.

:twak:

I think them_apples needs to be given a boxing exam. If he cannot answer 10 questions correctly regarding fighters who existed prior 1985 then he should be expelled from this section of the forum. :poke: :banned:

It is called 'Boxing History' afterall, not Tyson 101. Just a thought.

Ross on the other hand just needs to be chained to the radiator and forced to watch a nonstop marathon of Rocky Marciano films until he concedes I am right in every aspect.

:twak:
I'll give it a try, but I can't guarantee I won't fall asleep.LOL

I think them_apples needs to be given a boxing exam. If he cannot answer 10 questions correctly regarding fighters who existed prior 1985 then he should be expelled from this section of the forum. :poke: :banned:

It is called 'Boxing History' afterall, not Tyson 101. Just a thought.

Ross on the other hand just needs to be chained to the radiator and forced to watch a nonstop marathon of Rocky Marciano films until he concedes I am right in every aspect.

:twak:

Nice one there Hawkins. I'm not even a Tyson hater, he was definitely exciting to watch, but when I hear stuff like he was the best HW of all time and could demolish a prime Foreman and Liston and KO Marciano in less than 30 seconds, well........I just can't help myself but try and give those people a dose of reality.

Nice one there Hawkins. I'm not even a Tyson hater, he was definitely exciting to watch, but when I hear stuff like he was the best HW of all time and could demolish a prime Foreman and Liston and KO Marciano in less than 30 seconds, well........I just can't help myself but try and give those people a dose of reality.
The reality is, you don't know what the hell your talking about. I've never seen a more distorted view of boxing in all my life. I'm surprised you can even put words together to form a sentence. LOL

The reality is, you don't know what the hell your talking about. I've never seen a more distorted view of boxing in all my life. I'm surprised you can even put words together to form a sentence. LOL

Here's your view of boxing: Tyson was awsome, everyone else sucked.:ugh:

Here's your view of boxing: Tyson was awsome, everyone else sucked.:ugh:

:haha: That's actually true.

gavinz1970, just wanna say even though you say that he thinks tyson is the best and everyone else sucks..you do come across as the type of person that has no respect for fighters wen arguing against them. I mean u are constantly talking down of tyson, even your avatar is showing no respect, he dont alot of good for the sport you "love". You wouldnt see me with a picture of louis getting smashed out the ring by Marciano, or Ali getting beaten by berbick.

FYI: That wasnt even a knock down haha!..

Yea gavins is your typical oldschool hater, He thinks everyone nut hugs Tyson but when you pit him up against bums obviusly people are going to Argue.


Why aren't there more threads like Prime Tyson vs Prime Lennox Lewis, and the Tua vs Tyson thread, both better threads.

But like wtf Marciano vs Tyson, if Gavins thinks otherwise he's pretty Naive.

Yea gavins is your typical oldschool hater, He thinks everyone nut hugs Tyson but when you pit him up against bums obviusly people are going to Argue.

Why aren't there more threads like Prime Tyson vs Prime Lennox Lewis, and the Tua vs Tyson thread, both better threads.

But like wtf Marciano vs Tyson, if Gavins thinks otherwise he's pretty Naive.

But see, you are a Tyson 'nuthugger'. Therefore I'm not sure the point you're trying to make.

Yea gavins is your typical oldschool hater, He thinks everyone nut hugs Tyson but when you pit him up against bums obviusly people are going to Argue.


Why aren't there more threads like Prime Tyson vs Prime Lennox Lewis, and the Tua vs Tyson thread, both better threads.

But like wtf Marciano vs Tyson, if Gavins thinks otherwise he's pretty Naive.

So Marciano was a bum, but Tua was not?:nonono:

You wouldnt see me with a picture of louis getting smashed out the ring by Marciano, or Ali getting beaten by berbick.

FYI: That wasnt even a knock down haha!..

How dare you compare Tyson to Louis or Ali. And yeah it wasn't a knockdown, but could still barely get up, and then he quits on his stool right afterward. But Tyson really handled himself in that fight, tried to break McBride's arm, intentially headbutted him in the eye and threw numerous elbows and forearms.

How dare you compare Tyson to Louis or Ali. And yeah it wasn't a knockdown, but could still barely get up, and then he quits on his stool right afterward. But Tyson really handled himself in that fight, tried to break McBride's arm, intentially headbutted him in the eye and threw numerous elbows and forearms.


Tyson is in the same leauge as Louis and Ali. I wouldnt know who Wlad was if it wasnt for "Iron" Mike. I owe the man.

Tyson is in the same leauge as Louis and Ali. I wouldnt know who Wlad was if it wasnt for "Iron" Mike. I owe the man.

Tyson was a great. But he's not on the same level as Louis and Ali.

So Marciano was a bum, but Tua was not?

Tua would knock the hell out of Marciano...you can't compare old fighters to new ones...

Tua is 5'9 225-230 lbs! hit hits like a ton of bricks..Marciano would fold up like a lawn chair.

Tyson was a great. But he's not on the same level as Louis and Ali.


He is. Two time heavyweight champ "Iron" Mike Tyson is an amazing man.

Tyson is in the same leauge as Louis and Ali. I wouldnt know who Wlad was if it wasnt for "Iron" Mike. I owe the man.

If he turned you and others on to boxing then that's great. But throughout his career, Mike threw too many intentional elbows, low blows and headbutts to get much respect from me. He gets points for being the youngest heavyweight champ ever, and for dominating a somewhat weak division for 3 years. He was somewhat average though in his second incarnation and was exposed for what he really was when he finally met really good opposition.

Tua would knock the hell out of Marciano...you can't compare old fighters to new ones...

Tua is 5'9 225-230 lbs! hit hits like a ton of bricks..Marciano would fold up like a lawn chair.

You do understand that old fighters would be a lot heavier today don't you? And I have Tua KOing Tyson , even started a thread about it.

If he turned you and others on to boxing then that's great. But throughout his career, Mike threw too many intentional elbows, low blows and headbutts to get much respect from me. He gets points for being the youngest heavyweight champ ever, and for dominating a somewhat weak division for 3 years. He was somewhat average though in his second incarnation and was exposed for what he really was when he finally met really good opposition.


Watching Wlad KTFO of someone is like a drug Cocain can't top. I owe Mike and he was an amazing Champ form 86'-90'.

He is. Two time heavyweight champ "Iron" Mike Tyson is an amazing man.

Oh yeah, and Tyson really held on to those two belts he won from Frank Bruno and Bruce Seldon right a long time right?

Oh yeah, and Tyson really held on to those two belts he won from Frank Bruno and Bruce Seldon right a long time right?


C'mon man. I know you know boxing well. Tyson,Friazer,Marciano, all short guys in the heavyweight divsion, they where all done by the time they hit 30. You know this.

C'mon man. I know you know boxing well. Tyson,Friazer,Marciano, all short guys in the heavyweight divsion, they where all done by the time they hit 30. You know this.

Truthfully compare Frazier and Marciano to Tyson. Had he ever been in the kind of wars these guys endured? Beside Rocky was near 30 before he won the title, so that analogy is out the window.

The point is these guys went thru various, grueling fights while Tyson did not. The tough fights are what give you the wear and tear, not the style you have.

Truthfully compare Frazier and Marciano to Tyson. Had he ever been in the kind of wars these guys endured? Beside Rocky was near 30 before he won the title, so that analogy is out the window.

The point is these guys went thru various, grueling fights while Tyson did not. The tough fights are what give you the wear and tear, not the style you have.


Tyson vs Ruddock I and II.................

yea and what about tony tucker and mitch green

C'mon man. I know you know boxing well. Tyson,Friazer,Marciano, all short guys in the heavyweight divsion, they where all done by the time they hit 30. You know this.

Marciano had 5 successful title defences after turning 30, before he retired at 32 so he wouldn't have to give his crook of a manager another cent. And Frazier had a war with Ali and KO'd Quarry and Ellis after turning 30.

yea and what about tony tucker and mitch green

The Mitch Green fight was not a tough fight all Green did was survive he never hurt Tyson at any time in that fight and apart from the first round when Tony Tucker rocked Tyson with the uppercut and a few nice shots he never really hurt Tyson i give Tucker credit he won 3 or 4 rounds vs prime Tyson but that was not really a tough gruling fight believe me even though Tucker managed to win about 3 rounds maybe 4 rounds and he was doing decent in the first 4 rounds but after that Tyson pretty much dominated up until the 12th round when Tucker had another good moment if i remember right in the closing stages of the fight.

The 1st Ruddock fight was not that much of a tough fight either except for the 30 seconds Ruddock had in the 6th round when he rocked Tyson it was pretty much a one sided fight the 2nd Ruddock fight was a war though i will agree on that.

"Iron" Mike Tyson KO1 The World

1. Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Joe Frazier
8. Sonny Liston
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Lennox Lewis

yeah i agree with that list but i would swap Lewis and holyfield around i cant belive people ar picking tyson as a top 10 all timer for me to be regarded as that good you have to beat another great H.W somthing tyson was never good enough to do

How dare you compare Tyson to Louis or Ali. And yeah it wasn't a knockdown, but could still barely get up, and then he quits on his stool right afterward. But Tyson really handled himself in that fight, tried to break McBride's arm, intentially headbutted him in the eye and threw numerous elbows and forearms.

They are just two examples, his a great i know louis and Ali are the top 2, but that doesnt make it right. It just shows disrespect, something that is brought on by bias. Yeh tyson tried some dirty tactics in the fight, at least he didnt try to blind some Ali!. Its blown out of proportion, there were plenty of dirty fighter Holyfield wins plenty of fights by headbutting.Its what comes with boxing sometimes. But that werent the argument, your just taking the piss no respect at all. The guys we talk about all helped the sport of boxing, made it exciting to watch, its pretty harsh bringing them down all the time and having avatars like that. How some respect

Oh yeah, and Tyson really held on to those two belts he won from Frank Bruno and Bruce Seldon right a long time right?

About as long as Foremans first reign and most of holyfields reigns and as long as Listons reign.

About as long as Foremans first reign and most of holyfields reigns and as long as Listons reign.

Well in the case of Foreman and Liston, they happened to be around when the greatest heavyweight of all time was fighting.

Marciano was in the worst boxing era so i guess his reign means nothing aswell..along with Larry Holmes

Marciano was in the worst boxing era so i guess his reign means nothing aswell..along with Larry Holmes

I thought today was the worst heavyweight boxing era? Anyway, yes Rocky's record wouldn't have been perfect in other eras, but he had the heart to come back (unlike Tyson) from adversity. And of course Larry's reign wouldn't have been as long with primes Foreman and Ali around.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Sonny Liston
3. George Foreman
4. Mike Tyson
5. Joe Louis
6. Larry Holmes
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Johnson
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Lennox Lewis


I've changed my list again, and this time I'll explain why I made the changes.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Sonny Liston
3. Mike Tyson
4. Joe Louis
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Johnson
7. George Foreman
8. Joe Frazier
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Lennox Lewis

I used to have Foreman above Tyson because I felt Tyson's swarming style would play right into Foreman's hands. However, I feel that since Foreman had sub-par stamina, if Tyson could get past a certain number of rounds, he could beat Foreman on points. Tyson is Quicker and harder to hit than Frazier, and is more adaptable. In addition, Tyson's offensive arsenal is better than Frazier's so Foreman would have to look out for more than just a hook. Foreman left himself open for punches inside suck as uppercuts, and Tyson would use that to his advantage. I feel Tyson would beat Foreman to the punch, and survive George's early onslaught to come on later in the fight and win the unanimous decision.

I used to have Foreman above Joe Louis as well, because I felt that Louis got rocked too many times by sub-par fighters, than a guy as big and strong as Foreman would overwhelm him early. However now I think Louis' better skills and good defence would weather Foreman's onslaught. Also Foreman was a hard puncher, but he wasn't a great puncher. he might floor Louis but I doubt now he could knock him out with those thudding blows. When Joe Louis hit you you did funny little things. Those are the marks of a great puncher; maximizing the force of the blow like Louis did. Plus with Foreman's bad stamina and Louis great stamina, Louis would take over in the late rounds and win the decision. Like with Tyson, Foreman would be going against a fast accurate and most importantly hard puncher, and that would be his downfall.

I used to have George Foreman over Larry Holmes because I felt George's ability to cut off the ring would get to Holmes, and that if you had Holmes in real trouble, you could finish him off if you were a great finisher. However, now I feel differently about this scenario. Foreman could cut off the ring good, but like with Ali fight, he would be beaten to the punch. I feel that a prime Holmes' legs were a bit better than that of Zaire Ali. So Foreman would have to work harder in catching Holmes. Foreman wasn't an all-out swarmer, and Holmes was a master boxer with excellent stamina, so that would give Holmes some room to breathe, which I believe would be enough to pull out a close unanimous decision.

Fore the last of the bringing down George Foreman brigade, I used to have George above Jack Johnson as well. The reason is that frankly I underestimated Johnson in many ways. I felt Johnson had a glass chin (as with the case of Foreman vs. Louis), and that his footspeed wasn't enough to get out of Foreman's way. Since then, I have studied up on Jack Johnson and I have come to the conclusion that his chin is much better than I thought, and his footspeed and footwork is phenominal. Most of his early knockout losses was because of malnutrition and not a glass jaw. His only early knockout loss that wasn't a product of starvation was against Joe Choynski, a man that although he was a supermiddleweight, was a murderous puncher, and to which Johnson at the time only outweighed by only ten pounds. Johnson took good punches from 6'-2" 205lb. Frank Moran, who was a hard puncher, and wasn't affected by them. Johnson was also fast on his feet, as many opponents attested to his ability to avoid their punches by getting out of range very quickly. That flat-footed shuffle we all see in his films is just a trick to lead you to believe he was slow on his feet, and then you would try to rush him and all of a sudden he wasn't there. Many opponents have said this. Johnson would do the same thing to George Foreman, and it would get easier as the rounds go by. Foreman would find it hard to hit Johnson because he can block punches with speed just as well. Foreman would be out of his element against Johnson, and would lose a wide decision.

Last but not least, I used to have Joe Frazier above Jack Johnson, because again I underestimated Johnson's chin and footspeed, and I felt Frazier would overwhelm and be too much for him. However, this fight I feel would go the other way. First of all, Frazier's best punch is his left hook. Not only that it's his most potent and expected weapon. Most of the time, that's all he uses. Johnson was accustomed to watching out for left and right hands coming at him. If all he has to worry about is the left hook, then that would make it easier for him. Also Johnson is physically stronger than Frazier, so if frazier got inside, Johnson would be able most of the time to tie Joe up. Joe Fraizer's stamina would be a non-factor here, since Johnson's stamina was just as good, if not better. And Johnson new how to conserve energy when he wanted to and was very intelligent with what he was doing. In addition, Jack Johnson hits considerably harder than Muhammad Ali, so Frazier would really be busted up and worn down from the punishment he would be taking. i think Johnson wins a close but sure unanimous decision against Frazier.

So in short, I feel Joe Louis and Mike Tyson's accurate precision punching would be the difference against George Foreman and Larry Holmes and Jack Johnson's speed and boxing skill would be too much for Foreman (especially Johnson's). Finally, Johnson's complete arsenal of wit, skill, condition, speed, and intelligence would be the difference against Joe Frazier. You all can comment on my new top ten list if you want, and tell me what you think.

Thank you.:boxing:

I've changed my list again, and this time I'll explain why I made the changes.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Sonny Liston
3. Mike Tyson
4. Joe Louis
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Johnson
7. George Foreman
8. Joe Frazier
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Lennox Lewis




Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone could have Sonny or Tyson over Joe Louis. Their accomplishments are far more inferior to anything Joe Louis did. Furthermore I think Joe would knockout Tyson. I feel he would crowd Tyson and take away the space Tyson needed to get off his most effective shots. Joe on the other hand needed very little space to deliver a knockout punch as well as devestating combinations.

I think the key in that match-up would Joe's patience and counter punching ability. Tyson had a great handspeed, but so did Joe Louis. But aside from that no one, other than Ali, has the credentials to be ranked ahead of Louis. Plus, I think ranking fighters on the basis of a who beats who is way too subjective. True all lists are subjective and the result of opinion, but lists based on accomplishments are far more credible IMO.

Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone could have Sonny or Tyson over Joe Louis. Their accomplishments are far more inferior to anything Joe Louis did. Furthermore I think Joe would knockout Tyson. I feel he would crowd Tyson and take away the space Tyson needed to get off his most effective shots. Joe on the other hand needed very little space to deliver a knockout punch as well as devestating combinations.

I think the key in that match-up would Joe's patience and counter punching ability. Tyson had a great handspeed, but so did Joe Louis. But aside from that no one, other than Ali, has the credentials to be ranked ahead of Louis. Plus, I think ranking fighters on the basis of a who beats who is way too subjective. True all lists are subjective and the result of opinion, but lists based on accomplishments are far more credible IMO.

When have you ever seen Louis "crowd" anyone? Isn't it usually Tyson who crowds people? When Louis fought fighters with a similar style to Tyson, you usually saw him backing up and countering. You got this all wrong.

When have you ever seen Louis "crowd" anyone? Isn't it usually Tyson who crowds people? When Louis fought fighters with a similar style to Tyson, you usually saw him backing up and countering. You got this all wrong.

No, Louis was a more than adequate infighter when he had to be. Louis got up close and personal anytime the occasion called for it. If you think Louis would just back up and let Tyson tee-off on him I think you have it twisted. Louis was way too smart for that.

He would use a gameplan much like Holyfield did in my estimation.

Louis was good for his day but he's no match for later better fighter's. I think Galveston's list is decent IMO.

Louis wasn't all that smart ether, like most fighter's of his time he left his head open, you just don't do that with guys like, Frazier, Tyson, Liston..etc

Louis was good for his day but he's no match for later better fighter's. I think Galveston's list is decent IMO.

Louis wasn't all that smart ether, like most fighter's of his time he left his head open, you just don't do that with guys like, Frazier, Tyson, Liston..etc

Joe Louis was the most technically polished of all the great heavyweights. Great boxer and a great power puncher. No one else had the talents as he did.

No, Louis was a more than adequate infighter when he had to be. Louis got up close and personal anytime the occasion called for it. If you think Louis would just back up and let Tyson tee-off on him I think you have it twisted. Louis was way too smart for that.

He would use a gameplan much like Holyfield did in my estimation.

And did Holyfield "crowd" him? No, he backed up and counterpunched, just like I said Louis would do, so what's your point?

Joe Louis was the most technically polished of all the great heavyweights. Great boxer and a great power puncher. No one else had the talents as he did.

He still got hit with too many right hands, so I don't see how that equates into the most technically polished of all HWs.

And did Holyfield "crowd" him? No, he backed up and counterpunched, just like I said Louis would do, so what's your point?

Holyfield got in Mike's face and took away his power shots in the beginning of the fight. Just like Louis would have done. When Mike resorted to nothing but headhunting thats when the counterpunching came in and was so effective.

Holyfield got in Mike's face and took away his power shots in the beginning of the fight. Just like Louis would have done. When Mike resorted to nothing but headhunting thats when the counterpunching came in and was so effective.

Yeah right, he took it away? He got nailed with everything in the book in the first round. It's a miracle the fight didn't end there. Holyfield was in big trouble.

Wow Galveston, i didnt realise how much you rated tyson, its a pretty good list in my eyes! mines in my sig if u wanna have a look. So do you base your list on Match ups between each other then?
Also i dnt think louis could fight tyson like holyfield did, his chin isint as good and he wouldnt be strong enough.

Yeah right, he took it away? He got nailed with everything in the book in the first round. It's a miracle the fight didn't end there. Holyfield was in big trouble.

He tagged him once. The rest of the time he stayed in Mike's grill.

I've changed my list again, and this time I'll explain why I made the changes.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Sonny Liston
3. Mike Tyson
4. Joe Louis
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Johnson
7. George Foreman
8. Joe Frazier
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Lennox Lewis



So this list is purely on who would win heads up right? I don't think Liston could beat Louis, Holmes, Foreman or Lewis heads up. I don't think Tyson would beat Louis, Holmes, Foreman or Lewis hu. I don't think Holmes would beat Foreman, Frazier or Lewis hu. I don't think Johnson could beat Foreman, Frazier, Dempsey, or Lewis hu. I don't think Frazier could beat Lewis hu, and I don't think Dempsey could beat Lewis hu. But that's just my opinion, interesting list, and all we can do is speculate.

good top ten but dempsey was better than number ten.

Galveston Giant,

Lets forget Louis/Tyson match up for a minute. I think the most intriguing match-up would be Ali/Tyson. Since you have him above everyone else I'm guessing you think he beats everyone.

How do you see Ali/Tyson playing out?

It's a good list but why is L_Lewis so low?

Galveston Giant,

Lets forget Louis/Tyson match up for a minute. I think the most intriguing match-up would be Ali/Tyson. Since you have him above everyone else I'm guessing you think he beats everyone.

How do you see Ali/Tyson playing out?

Ali probably would have the toughest fight in his entire career. Tyson would score often than any of Ali's prime opponents, but in rounds 13-15, Ali would pull away and win a close but clear UD.:fing02:

So this list is purely on who would win heads up right? I don't think Liston could beat Louis, Holmes, Foreman or Lewis heads up. I don't think Tyson would beat Louis, Holmes, Foreman or Lewis hu. I don't think Holmes would beat Foreman, Frazier or Lewis hu. I don't think Johnson could beat Foreman, Frazier, Dempsey, or Lewis hu. I don't think Frazier could beat Lewis hu, and I don't think Dempsey could beat Lewis hu. But that's just my opinion, interesting list, and all we can do is speculate.

I respect your opinion, but I have my reasons, and I've changed my list so often that I probably at some point have similar opinions to you, so I don't blame you.

Wow Galveston, i didnt realise how much you rated tyson, its a pretty good list in my eyes! mines in my sig if u wanna have a look. So do you base your list on Match ups between each other then?
Also i dnt think louis could fight tyson like holyfield did, his chin isint as good and he wouldnt be strong enough.

Your list is pretty good, except I think you have Holyfield a bit too high. He's underrated yes, but not that much, plus he was very inconsistent throughout his career.

He tagged him once. The rest of the time he stayed in Mike's grill.

He tagged him more than once, and that's an understatement.

good top ten but dempsey was better than number ten.

He's number 9, plus head-to-head he was only 180-192 lbs in his prime, the smallest guy in my top 10. I can't see him doing much better, especially with his questionable stamina.

It's a good list but why is L_Lewis so low?

Well, obviously he had a questionable chin and tended to lull in some of his fights, giving the opportunity for him to be suprised or even beaten. He might be the best 230+lber ever but there is a thing as too much size. His footwork was terrible, he was a slow starter at times, and many times he was wide open for the uppercut. Sorry, but 10 is the best I can do.:fing02:

Ali probably would have the toughest fight in his entire career. Tyson would score often than any of Ali's prime opponents, but in rounds 13-15, Ali would pull away and win a close but clear UD.:fing02:



I think Ali would have the fight won before they ever entered the ring. With his approach of psychological warfare Tyson would be his for the taking. I think a prime Ali was just too fast for Tyson. Sure, Tyson had great hand speed, but speed is relative to size. Ali has longer reach thus his speed would more effective.

Sure Tyson would probably get some licks in, but I think Ali would sting him with enough jabs and rights that later in the fight he would think twice about pursuing as vigourously as in the earlier rounds.

I just don't think Tyson has the mental make-up to effectively deal with Ali and he'd play right into Ali's plans. Ali KO 11.

Everyone has their list of top ten heavyweights of all time here is mine. feel free to share yours also.


1)Muhammad Ali- It was amazing that a man of his physical size can move with such swiftness and agility. Was undefeated (30-0)when the title was wrongfully stripped from him in '67. Forced to stay out of boxing for three years, he went through ups and downs and 2 defeats to finally get another title shot at the age of 32 in 1974 and shocked the whole world by defeating the invincinble Big George Foreman. Two amazing title reigns and Ali was also the first man to win the Championship 3 times.

2)Joe Louis- The Brown Bomber was a deadly technician in the ring. During his title reign he faced anyone and anything that was put in front of him. Amazing number of title defenses(25!) and length of title reign.

3)George Foreman- In his early career Big George Foreman was a fighter that had the heavyweight division in fear, with an aura of invinciblity comparable to Tysons and Listons big George would have adversaries shaking in thier boots at the mention of his name. That is until he met Ali in '74. Big George was 42-0 when he lost to Ali. After the loss he went into a downward spiral that caused him to retire from boxing and becoming a preacher, didnt box for ten years. In 1988 Foreman came back with a drive to regain the heavyweight title again. And going through ups and downs he finally won back the title at the age of 45 in 1994 by KO against Michael Moorer. Amazingly regaining the title 20 years after losing it to Ali. Foreman is in the record books for the oldest man ever to win the championship at 45 years old, and also for having the 2nd highest knockout percentage in heavyweight history.

4. Rocky Marciano - The Rock was known for his amazing stamina in the ring like the energizer bunny you can keep beating him down but he just kept on coming. Incredible stamina, iron chin, unbeatable will to win, ability to knock you out with both hands, deadly body shots. What more can you ask for in a fighter. His 49-0 record still stands to this day.

5. Larry Holmes- The Easton Assassin was known for his lightning jab that was strong enough to knock you down. Holmes never got respect because unlike Ali he lacked an arch nemesis liek Ali had with Frazier, and he also ruled during a bleak period in heavyweight history. Spent 8 years as heavywieght Champ and went 48-0 before losing to Spinks almost tying Marciano's 49-0 record.

6. Joe Frazier- one word to describe him- relentless . Like Marciano you can throw everything at this guy and he'd still keep on coming. Owner of one of the deadliest left hooks in heavyweight history. The first man to beat Ali. His 3 dramatic fights with Ali made Smokin Joe Frazier a legend.

7. Lennox Lewis- During his title reign the British lion fought and defeated all the top heavyweights of his day including Holyfield and Tyson. Look at the list of all the fighters The British Lion has defeated and you'll see his place in history cannot be denied. Possessed one of the deadliest right hands in heavyweight history.

8.Evander Holyfield - Evander The Real Deal Holyfield is a man with incredible heart. Possesses one of the greatest chins of all time , this man didnt know the meaning of the word -quit. Proved the critics wrong time after time. Saying he wasnt big enough to be a Heavyweight he went on to win the title a record 4 times. His most dramtic win was when he defeated Iron Mike Tyson for the Title in 1996 when everyone wrote Holyfield off as a hasbeen.

9. Mike Tyson- Iron Mike Tyson's place in history is bittersweet to me because I feel had he stayed with trainer Kevin Rooney, Mike Tyson had the POTENTIAL to become the greatest Heavyweight Champ of all time. Everyone knows Tysons story. Tyson had incredible speed, incredible KO power, great finisher, a violent blood lust to destroy his opponent. Many of Tysons fight would not go past the 2nd round. During Tyson's 3 year reign of terror opponents feared Tyson so much that they would forget to fight back. With his black shoes no socks, black trunks, fade haircut and gym towel draped on his shoulders he had an aura of invincibility that the ring had never seen before or since. In 1988 this man was frightening, his 90 second annihilation of Michael Spinks and 4 round destruction of Larry Holmes truly made him the "Baddest man on the planet".

10. Jack Dempsey- the Monnassa Mauler- was a devestating force to be reckoned with back in his day. Knocked out Jess willard in violent fashion knocking Willards teeth out literally to win the Heavyweight Title,,,,and Dempsey was outweighed by Willard by more than 50 lbs!!!. Dempsey style was the prototype to Tyson, Tyson even borrowed Dempseys style of wearing black shoes, black shorts, fade haircut from Dempsey. Going for the knock out Dempsey could knock you out with either hand. Pure assassin.

***special note - Jack Johnson is my #11. The reason I dont have him ranked higher is because he ruled in an old time era when heavyweights would fight middleweights and even welterweights. In fact Johnson himself fought many fights with many weight mismatches. Had Johnson ruled in a "Modernised Era" he would have placed higher on my list. With that being said I believe Johnson was extremely talented and can even defeat some of the men that rank higher in my list.***



***ReVISED 5/26/2007-Tyson has proven himself to be unworthy and is now replaced by James J. Braddock.

James J. Braddock is #9

Jack Dempsey no. 10 and Jack Johnson no. 11???? You seriously gonna rate Holyfield no.8, Tyson no.9, Holmes no.5, Lennox Lewis no. 7??? Your other selections belong there but you seriously cannot have theothers there! You rate these guys above Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Harry Greb, Gene Tunney?

I just don't think Tyson has the mental make-up to effectively deal with Ali and he'd play right into Ali's plans. Ali KO 11.

I can see Ali getting a decision possibly, but there is the chance that he could also get knocked out via the same way Holmes was, only maybe round 5.

Ali's chin was questionable during his younger years so if he got clocked by one of Tyson's hooks it could be game over. Only speculating though.

Also, If Ali wins, it's a clear UD/decision I don't think Ali has the power to knock out Tyson, Tyson avoids to many shots -- unlike Liston (who ate them all) and Tyson wouldn't tire like Foreman.

I'm not trying to make you mad by acting like a "nuthugger" but Tyson was in incredible fighting condition during the 80's and could pose a huge threat to any great of any time.

I can see Ali getting a decision possibly, but there is the chance that he could also get knocked out via the same way Holmes was, only maybe round 5.

Ali's chin was questionable during his younger years so if he got clocked by one of Tyson's hooks it could be game over. Only speculating though.

Also, If Ali wins, it's a clear UD/decision I don't think Ali has the power to knock out Tyson, Tyson avoids to many shots -- unlike Liston (who ate them all) and Tyson wouldn't tire like Foreman.

I'm not trying to make you mad by acting like a "nuthugger" but Tyson was in incredible fighting condition during the 80's and could pose a huge threat to any great of any time.

Tyson's 'achilles heel' was his unsettled mind! He did remind a lot of Jack Dempsey in his heyday with constant 'bobbing and weaving'. Tyson also did the 'peak-a-boo' very well and punched in sustained combinations like an 'animal' going upstairs then downstairs. I could see Ali getting under Tyson's skin with pre-fight taunts and who else was better at taunting their opponent pre-fight?? This would cause Tyson to come out like a man possessed once the bell rang. Ali neglected body bunching and didn't put full weight behind his punches always dancing around ring although he had one of the best chins in boxing history along with Greb, La Motta and Zale. Ali would take a clear UD over Tyson.

Hawkins - As for Ali tyson, i agree that ali would have the toughest fought of his career. and its probably the hardest fight to call on the top 10 list. I mean Tyson would definatley catch Ali more than any other fighter he came up against. He is much faster than fraizer and if he caught ali i believe tyson definatley was. I see Either a SD for Ali or UD. or a TKO or KO For tyson most likley TKO.
Galvestone - My other list which is based on my thoughts and opinion has evander at the bottom half of the list. But this was done in a spreadsheet manner (i can send it to u if u want) and holyfield scored quite highly!

I can see Ali getting a decision possibly, but there is the chance that he could also get knocked out via the same way Holmes was, only maybe round 5.

Ali's chin was questionable during his younger years so if he got clocked by one of Tyson's hooks it could be game over. Only speculating though.

Also, If Ali wins, it's a clear UD/decision I don't think Ali has the power to knock out Tyson, Tyson avoids to many shots -- unlike Liston (who ate them all) and Tyson wouldn't tire like Foreman.

I'm not trying to make you mad by acting like a "nuthugger" but Tyson was in incredible fighting condition during the 80's and could pose a huge threat to any great of any time.



Well I think Ali very deceptive power. For a dude not to have any power he had alot of knockouts, however I think if Evander could knock out Tyson I think Ali could as well. Plus I think Tyson would suffer the same fate Liston and Foreman did, Ali's mind games would break his will and he would show the traits he did in some of his later fights and thats to give up.

Well I think Ali very deceptive power. For a dude not to have any power he had alot of knockouts, however I think if Evander could knock out Tyson I think Ali could as well. Plus I think Tyson would suffer the same fate Liston and Foreman did, Ali's mind games would break his will and he would show the traits he did in some of his later fights and thats to give up.

possibly, but I still give a young Tyson a better chance than Foreman or Liston.
While both Liston and Foreman had considerable power, they both lacked speed. Speed is often considered a fighter's best attribute.

Ali's mind games would make Tyson nervous before the fight, and angry once he was in the ring. Ether side getting a knockout is pretty hard to see, given they are both in there primes.

The thing is, I don't consider Ali having a granite chin when he fought Liston, Liston (60's) was just to slow to hit Ali. The later and greater (imo) Ali was slower but had much more durability.

I would leave it at the hardest fight of his life however, due to the fact that Ali couldn't pick any glaring weaknesses out of Tyson, aside from the mental aspect -- which I think Tyson could have handled if the fight would have happened around 87-89, due to the amount of wins he was racking up.

possibly, but I still give a young Tyson a better chance than Foreman or Liston.
While both Liston and Foreman had considerable power, they both lacked speed. Speed is often considered a fighter's best attribute.

Ali's mind games would make Tyson nervous before the fight, and angry once he was in the ring. Ether side getting a knockout is pretty hard to see, given they are both in there primes.

The thing is, I don't consider Ali having a granite chin when he fought Liston, Liston (60's) was just to slow to hit Ali. The later and greater (imo) Ali was slower but had much more durability.

I would leave it at the hardest fight of his life however, due to the fact that Ali couldn't pick any glaring weaknesses out of Tyson, aside from the mental aspect -- which I think Tyson could have handled if the fight would have happened around 87-85, due to the amount of wins he was racking up.

The Ali that fought Liston dances circles around Tyson, makes Tyson throw BOTH arms out of their sockets and makes him quit on his stool.

possibly, but I still give a young Tyson a better chance than Foreman or Liston.
While both Liston and Foreman had considerable power, they both lacked speed. Speed is often considered a fighter's best attribute.

I agree. I think a prime Tyson is a better fighter than Foreman and Liston just for the sheer speed and ferocity he brought to the table. I think Liston was a better boxer, however Tyson gets the edge on both.

Ali's mind games would make Tyson nervous before the fight, and angry once he was in the ring. Ether side getting a knockout is pretty hard to see, given they are both in there primes.

I don't think anyone would have tested Tyson's will like Ali. Ali was the master of head games. And would use Tyson's anger against him by making him venture from his gameplan.

The thing is, I don't consider Ali having a granite chin when he fought Liston, Liston (60's) was just to slow to hit Ali. The later and greater (imo) Ali was slower but had much more durability.

I would leave it at the hardest fight of his life however, due to the fact that Ali couldn't pick any glaring weaknesses out of Tyson, aside from the mental aspect -- which I think Tyson could have handled if the fight would have happened around 87-85, due to the amount of wins he was racking up.


I think Tyson's one glaring weakness in the ring was fighting going backward. Granted we didn't see that much in '86-'89 but Ali wouldn't be able to take advantage of that. I think Ali's biggest weakness in his prime years before exile was overconfidence. However, I'm not sure we'd see that Ali with as dangerous a foe as Tyson.

One thing is for sure it would be one for the ages.

I don't think anyone would have tested Tyson's will like Ali. Ali was the master of head games. And would use Tyson's anger against him by making him venture from his gameplan.
I think Tysons gameplan to kill Ali wouldn't be effected in this case.LOL

I think Tysons gameplan to kill Ali wouldn't be effected in this case.LOL

I think Ali beats him 9/10 times. :)

I think Ali beats him 9/10 times. :)
I say 7/10:boxing:

I agree. I think a prime Tyson is a better fighter than Foreman and Liston just for the sheer speed and ferocity he brought to the table.



Hawk and I agree on something!!:banana:

Hawk and I agree on something!!:banana:
Yeah, he finally said something that makes sense. LOL J/K

Yeah, he finally said something that makes sense. LOL J/K

Yawn..... I'm still waiting on a post from you that does.:boxing:

Yawn..... I'm still waiting on a post from you that does.:boxing:
They don't make sense to you because you have a very limited understanding of our beloved sport.:banana:

I think Ali would have the fight won before they ever entered the ring.

Wrong!!!!!

Wrong!!!!!

Well if I'm wrong elaborate.

Well if I'm wrong elaborate.

It just rediculous that someone who was himself known for winning fights before they started would be on the recieving end of that scenario. It's just not going to happen.

It just rediculous that someone who was himself known for winning fights before they started would be on the recieving end of that scenario. It's just not going to happen.

There is a huge difference between Mike's intimidation and Ali's psychological warfare. Mike Tyson won fights before they were fought based solely on his reputation whereas Ali got into his opponents head with his antics and the things he said.

The first Liston fight is the prime example. It's the same principal. Ali got into his head so badly that he was totally psyched out before the bell rang. The same would happen to Tyson. Anyone knows Tyson wasn't strong in a mental aspect and Ali would exploit to the maximum.

There is a huge difference between Mike's intimidation and Ali's psychological warfare. Mike Tyson won fights before they were fought based solely on his reputation whereas Ali got into his opponents head with his antics and the things he said.

The first Liston fight is the prime example. It's the same principal. Ali got into his head so badly that he was totally psyched out before the bell rang. The same would happen to Tyson. Anyone knows Tyson wasn't strong in a mental aspect and Ali would exploit to the maximum.

I don't Liston was beaten before the bell rang. In fact Liston thought he had Clay beaten before the fight started. He was just suprised because of the vast improvement Clay showed as a fighter in the previous 7 months. That had nothing to do with Ali's "mind games". Remember many thought Tyson was gonna succumb to the pressure of fighting Spinks, but we all know what happened. I think Ali would berat Tyson, but because of his fighting ability, not because of "mind games".:fing02:

I don't Liston was beaten before the bell rang. In fact Liston thought he had Clay beaten before the fight started. He was just suprised because of the vast improvement Clay showed as a fighter in the previous 7 months. That had nothing to do with Ali's "mind games". Remember many thought Tyson was gonna succumb to the pressure of fighting Spinks, but we all know what happened. I think Ali would berat Tyson, but because of his fighting ability, not because of "mind games".:fing02:

For someone who is supposedly full of Ali 'knowledge' you totally underestimate one of the greatest tools in his arsenal. Go and read of the accounts of the Ali/Liston fight and all the things the happened during the buildup to the fight. Ali achieved two of objectives -

One he totally got into Sonny Liston's head and make Sonny want to absolutely kill him. Sonny wasn't focused on boxing Ali, he wanted to tear his head off.

Two, Sonny Liston actually thought Ali was crazy because of all of his antics. This placed a huge doubt in Liston's frame of mind.

Plus, you have to take into effect Ali's constant trash talking in the ring. Tyson would be defeated before the bell rang because he would be focused on trying to murder Ali. Mike Tyson would be supremely exposed to this kind of tactic because, to put it mildly, he is a mental and emotional midget in alot of aspects.

....read of the accounts of the Ali/Liston fight and all the things the happened during the buildup to the fight. Ali achieved two of objectives -

One he totally got into Sonny Liston's head and make Sonny want to absolutely kill him. Sonny wasn't focused on boxing Ali, he wanted to tear his head off.

Two, Sonny Liston actually thought Ali was crazy because of all of his antics. This placed a huge doubt in Liston's frame of mind.

Plus, you have to take into effect Ali's constant trash talking in the ring. Tyson would be defeated before the bell rang because he would be focused on trying to murder Ali. Mike Tyson would be supremely exposed to this kind of tactic because, to put it mildly, he is a mental and emotional midget in alot of aspects.
Yeah, I've heard people say Liston thought Ali was crazy but this is all opinion not fact right? Also, Liston didn't fight like a raging bull off his game plan and expending too much energy. I do feel Ali's tactics before his fights sometimes worked in his favor but what about Frazier. I think this "hatred" (or whatever you want to call it) worked against Ali. Frazier because of this was willing to die in that ring or at least it pushed him to his limits. Frazier on the other hand never fought Ali like an idiot out of control. I'm not saying Tyson would have beat Ali, but seriously doubt Ali's tactics before a fight with Tyson would have been an advantage. It was Tyson's rage that helped make him the ultimate killing machine in his prime. But of coarse this is where the Douglas and Holyfield BS usually comes in as a pathetically weak defense. LOL

Yeah, I've heard people say Liston thought Ali was crazy but this is all opinion not fact right? Also, Liston didn't fight like a raging bull off his game plan and expending too much energy. I do feel Ali's tactics before his fights sometimes worked in his favor but what about Frazier. I think this "hatred" (or whatever you want to call it) worked against Ali. Frazier because of this was willing to die in that ring or at least it pushed him to his limits. Frazier on the other hand never fought Ali like an idiot out of control. I'm not saying Tyson would have beat Ali, but seriously doubt Ali's tactics before a fight with Tyson would have been an advantage. It was Tyson's rage that helped make him the ultimate killing machine in his prime. But of coarse this is where the Douglas and Holyfield BS usually comes in as a pathetically weak defense. LOL

Well I made the comparison because Liston, and you could argue a case for Foreman too, were fighters similar to Tyson in that they relied heavily on their intimidation. Plus, I think Liston and Foreman were mentally stronger than Mike. Frazier is a whole different ballgame, he may fight similar to Tyson but otherwise they are on a different level.

I made the comparison because Ali would likely use his mindgames to manipulate Tyson. He would get in his head and put Tyson in the frame of mind to murder Ali, letting his anger get the better of him. Tyson always fought with this sort of controlled fury, I just think Ali would turn the tables.

Plus factor in all the things he would be saying to Tyson in the ring. I truly think it would go down like a Foreman or Liston fight with Ali totally breaking Tyson's will.

Well I made the comparison because Liston, and you could argue a case for Foreman too, were fighters similar to Tyson in that they relied heavily on their intimidation. Plus, I think Liston and Foreman were mentally stronger than Mike. Frazier is a whole different ballgame, he may fight similar to Tyson but otherwise they are on a different level.

I made the comparison because Ali would likely use his mindgames to manipulate Tyson. He would get in his head and put Tyson in the frame of mind to murder Ali, letting his anger get the better of him. Tyson always fought with this sort of controlled fury, I just think Ali would turn the tables.

Plus factor in all the things he would be saying to Tyson in the ring. I truly think it would go down like a Foreman or Liston fight with Ali totally breaking Tyson's will.
Good points, I just don't agree that Tyson relied or really tried to intimidate fighters to the same degree that Foreman and Liston did. Sure he talked a his shit before the fights, but it was later in his career when he really started. The first Tyson was kind of a nice guy and he never really stared too many opponents down when they came face to face for the referees instructions. Not always but most of the time. I think fighters like Liston, Frazier, Tyson, and Foreman could intimidate because of their abilities more than anything else. Ali was very intimidating through his confidence, and stare downs, yet everyone still chased him around the ring because he wasn't known to be a devastating puncher.

Good points, I just don't agree that Tyson relied or really tried to intimidate fighters to the same degree that Foreman and Liston did. Sure he talked a his shit before the fights, but it was later in his career when he really started. The first Tyson was kind of a nice guy and he never really stared too many opponents down when they came face to face for the referees instructions. Not always but most of the time. I think fighters like Liston, Frazier, Tyson, and Foreman could intimidate because of their abilities more than anything else. Ali was very intimidating through his confidence, and stare downs, yet everyone still chased him around the ring because he wasn't known to be a devastating puncher.

Well no, Tyson didn't really try to intimidate guys by his words. It was his fighting style and the image they tried to cultivate that intimidated guys. Thats the angle I was approaching from. Liston and Foreman were never big talkers either but they intimidated many opponents by the way they carried themselves and the reputations they had birthed.

Well no, Tyson didn't really try to intimidate guys by his words. It was his fighting style and the image they tried to cultivate that intimidated guys. Thats the angle I was approaching from. Liston and Foreman were never big talkers either but they intimidated many opponents by the way they carried themselves and the reputations they had birthed.
Very true my humble master.:hail: (Disclaimer: That was meant to be funny not sarcastic. God, I hate disclaimers. lol)

Very true my humble master.:hail: (Disclaimer: That was meant to be funny not sarcastic. God, I hate disclaimers. lol)

:grouphug:

well all live in a yellow submarine...a yellow submarine...a yellow submarine! LOL :439:

I got "Iron" Mike Tyson #1..........................................

I used to think Tyson was the number 1 HW, but I'm thinking if Buster Douglas gave him trouble because of his good jab, and keeping him at bay, imagine what the other real HW's would have done .

I cant believe you said tyson didnt intimidate people by what he said..did u ever hear the guy speak to other fighters!

I cant believe you said tyson didnt intimidate people by what he said..did u ever hear the guy speak to other fighters!

He didn't really say anything in his hey day. After he got out of prison, well thats a different story.

He was actually running his mouth rapidly when he took the Don King bum team. After prison he calmed down a bit.

He was actually running his mouth rapidly when he took the Don King bum team. After prison he calmed down a bit.

Well, I was referencing the Cus/Rooney Tyson. The one that was actually respectful.

Yeh very true!! After prison he ran his mouth before the fight to intimidate. With Rooney, he said the odd thing or two after the fight, but your right in that respect

He was actually running his mouth rapidly when he took the Don King bum team. After prison he calmed down a bit.
After prison he calmed down a bit!!!??? If anyones thoughts are laughable it's yours. You have Tyson on your avatar but you don't know shit about him.

After prison he calmed down a bit!!!??? If anyones thoughts are laughable it's yours. You have Tyson on your avatar but you don't know shit about him.

Hello there tough guy. I thought you said "I don't take forum things seriously"? Now here you are acting like a cheerleader on crack questioning me.
Trust me on this son, I've been discussing Tyson here long before you did, long before you were a fan of his. So i've been around in that department. You on the other hand have been goofing around and being laughed at as a result. You're known as a product of Tyson nuthuggers, I have overcome that as a Tyson fan. I've earned my respect here, you did not. So you are in no position to tell me I 'don't know shit about Tyson'. Now lets educate you.

Tyson has had diffirent era's. There is one where he is with his Catskills team as a polite young man trying to be the best in the world while doing his talking in the ring.
Then we have the Tyson that took Don King's team, became an arrogant brat with redicilous comments outside of the ring, his in ring performances sometimes lacking.
This is known as the trashtalking, or in your case SHITtalking Tyson.
Then we fast forward after his time in prison, and we have a wiser man converted to Islam doing everything he can to make a positive image on himself. Not dissrespecting his opponents or the sport itself outside or inside the ring.
Now, that was a short era, but it is in fact true that Tyson calmed down AFTER prison. When things went wrong again because of him, or like you would say: Things became shit again, is when Mike bit Evander Holyfield's ears. After that, his boxing licence was revoked and he started getting in trouble again.
That is the era when Mike Tyson starts to become known as a monster basicely, as he was trashtalking, trying to break people's arms, doing everything he can to hype fights up.
I never claimed Tyson calmed down forever after prison. But there was a short time where he had the class again.

Some people(young people like yourself for example) might not get it because they're still ignorant tyson nuthuggers with the potential to become wiser. They interpret statements wrong and become defensive and upset as a result. But you should always try to educate them. Some of them turn out great.

Hello there tough guy. I thought you said "I don't take forum things seriously"? Now here you are acting like a cheerleader on crack questioning me.
Trust me on this son, I've been discussing Tyson here long before you did, long before you were a fan of his. So i've been around in that department. You on the other hand have been goofing around and being laughed at as a result. You're known as a product of Tyson nuthuggers, I have overcome that as a Tyson fan. I've earned my respect here, you did not. So you are in no position to tell me I 'don't know shit about Tyson'. Now lets educate you.

Tyson has had diffirent era's. There is one where he is with his Catskills team as a polite young man trying to be the best in the world while doing his talking in the ring.
Then we have the Tyson that took Don King's team, became an arrogant brat with redicilous comments outside of the ring, his in ring performances sometimes lacking.
This is known as the trashtalking, or in your case SHITtalking Tyson.
Then we fast forward after his time in prison, and we have a wiser man converted to Islam doing everything he can to make a positive image on himself. Not dissrespecting his opponents or the sport itself outside or inside the ring.
Now, that was a short era, but it is in fact true that Tyson calmed down AFTER prison. When things went wrong again because of him, or like you would say: Things became shit again, is when Mike bit Evander Holyfield's ears. After that, his boxing licence was revoked and he started getting in trouble again.
That is the era when Mike Tyson starts to become known as a monster basicely, as he was trashtalking, trying to break people's arms, doing everything he can to hype fights up.
I never claimed Tyson calmed down forever after prison. But there was a short time where he had the class again.

Some people(young people like yourself for example) might not get it because they're still ignorant tyson nuthuggers with the potential to become wiser. They interpret statements wrong and become defensive and upset as a result. But you should always try to educate them. Some of them turn out great.
Saying Tyson calmed down after prison doesn't imply he started back up after the Holyfield fight. But I'll forgive you. lol

For someone who is supposedly full of Ali 'knowledge' you totally underestimate one of the greatest tools in his arsenal. Go and read of the accounts of the Ali/Liston fight and all the things the happened during the buildup to the fight. Ali achieved two of objectives -

One he totally got into Sonny Liston's head and make Sonny want to absolutely kill him. Sonny wasn't focused on boxing Ali, he wanted to tear his head off.

Two, Sonny Liston actually thought Ali was crazy because of all of his antics. This placed a huge doubt in Liston's frame of mind.

Plus, you have to take into effect Ali's constant trash talking in the ring. Tyson would be defeated before the bell rang because he would be focused on trying to murder Ali. Mike Tyson would be supremely exposed to this kind of tactic because, to put it mildly, he is a mental and emotional midget in alot of aspects.

Well, if you have as much Ali knowledge as you think you do then you would know about that little incident in a Miami Beach Casino in which Clay was giving Liston a hard time to which Sonny walked up to Clay and smacked him hard in the face. Suprised, Clay asked why he did that, to which Liston replied, "'Cause you're too ****ing fresh!" Then Liston walked away and said to one of his friends, "That's it, I got the kid's heart." I'm pretty sure at fight time Liston was cool, calm, and collective, but he was out of shape and was just overshadowed by the skills of Cassius Clay. Pre-fight mind games had nothing to do with it.

Well, if you have as much Ali knowledge as you think you do then you would know about that little incident in a Miami Beach Casino in which Clay was giving Liston a hard time to which Sonny walked up to Clay and smacked him hard in the face. Surprised, Clay asked why he did that, to which Liston replied, "'Cause you're too ****ing fresh!" Then Liston walked away and said to one of his friends, "That's it, I got the kid's heart." I'm pretty sure at fight time Liston was cool, calm, and collective, but he was out of shape and was just overshadowed by the skills of Cassius Clay. Pre-fight mind games had nothing to do with it.

Pre-fight mind games had everything to do with it. Why did Liston get angered enough to slap him? Because Clay/Ali was continually antagonizing him. Liston truly thought he was crazy. I'm sure Liston thought who in their sane mind would follow him around and prod him like that?

When the fight started Liston almost ran from his corner in an attempt to take Clay/Ali's head off. He had successfully gotten under Sonny's skin and in his head. ;)

Pre-fight mind games had everything to do with it. Why did Liston get angered enough to slap him? Because Clay/Ali was continually antagonizing him. Liston truly thought he was crazy. I'm sure Liston thought who in their sane mind would follow him around and prod him like that?

When the fight started Liston almost ran from his corner in an attempt to take Clay/Ali's head off. He had successfully gotten under Sonny's skin and in his head. ;)

But when Clay did nothing back, that is when Liston thought he had it in the bag, phychologically. I think people make too big a deal of pre-fight buildup and getting into soemone's head. Usually the outcame of a fight is simply because of the imposement of fighting ability, plain and simple.:fing02:

About Tyson calming down after prison :

This is true and untrue at the same time lol. After prision he ran his mouth alot, the Whole i wanna eat your children speech was after prison. So was the brawl with lewis and the Saverese thing were he wouldt stop hitting. But he started to calm down after the lewis fight, was alot more respectful of the fighters. In truth he was always respectful, after the fight towards the fighter.

About Tyson calming down after prison :

This is true and untrue at the same time lol. After prision he ran his mouth alot, the Whole i wanna eat your children speech was after prison. So was the brawl with lewis and the Saverese thing were he wouldt stop hitting. But he started to calm down after the lewis fight, was alot more respectful of the fighters. In truth he was always respectful, after the fight towards the fighter.

I think Yaman is talking about a short period right after prison, probably to prove to the public he wasn't a monster..seeing as the media made sure that wouldn't work, he reverted back to being a monster.

I guess the Tyson vs Mcneely could be considered that time, Tyson did seem to collect himself in that fight.

Great.... that's a nice top ten list

:)