Heckler, all of the reasons you made about Ali not going to war are justifiable, but to be honest i think he was just scared to go like any1 wud be.

How could he be scared if he wouldn't even be put into a combat role? There is not way they would ever actually have him fighting, so it isn't because he was scared.

i hate it when they say ali was a draft dodger. he wasn't. a draft dodger was someone who burned their draft ticket, and then went to hide out in another country, usually canada, till the war was over. ali did no such thing. he fought it legally as a conscientious objector, and won! so know ali was not a draft dodger. :cool:

http://www.si.umich.edu/CHICO/Schomburg/images/ali.jpg

Ali's career is based entirely on our perception of the men he faced. The 70's are generally regarded as a great era for the heavyweights but who's to really say those men would have beaten the guys from the 30's, which is an era generally looked down upon? Whose to say that Tommy Loughran doesn't outpoint Foreman with his jab (like he did with the huge hard punching Max Baer) or that Baer doesn't blow Frazier out in a few rounds like Foreman did?

We'll never know because we don't have a time machine. All of these discussions are based on hypotheticals. Hell if I want to believe that Jim Jeffries outworks Ali in a fifteen round fight (think of the trouble Chuvalo gave him, and Jeffries of similar dimensions hit a lot harder than Chuvalo) is it really that insane of an argument? All of these guys were the best in the world at their respective eras. Hard to REALLY compare eras with any authority with the exception of the current division which just plain sucks. ;)

Ali's career is based entirely on our perception of the men he faced. The 70's are generally regarded as a great era for the heavyweights but who's to really say those men would have beaten the guys from the 30's, which is an era generally looked down upon? Whose to say that Tommy Loughran doesn't outpoint Foreman with his jab (like he did with the huge hard punching Max Baer) or that Baer doesn't blow Frazier out in a few rounds like Foreman did?

We'll never know because we don't have a time machine. All of these discussions are based on hypotheticals. Hell if I want to believe that Jim Jeffries outworks Ali in a fifteen round fight (think of the trouble Chuvalo gave him, and Jeffries of similar dimensions hit a lot harder than Chuvalo) is it really that insane of an argument? All of these guys were the best in the world at their respective eras. Hard to REALLY compare eras with any authority with the exception of the current division which just plain sucks. ;)

the 30s was worse than today.

You have a great top 10 list Rock!

Cry like a little bitch. Foreman got exposed as the one dimensional slugger he was. Handle it and stop hugging his nuts, were his opponents following this of the same class as Ali or even COMPARABLE? did they have the same intangible qualities as Ali? your post was the joke. He did nothing? what so completely controlling the fight when it was in center ring was nothing? Or Implementing his gameplan on the ropes, and skillfully timing counterpunches on the ropes throughout the fight was nothing? And absorbing huge punches on the ropes and using subtle angles, deflecting shots of his gloves and elbows was nothing. Open your eyes, Ali beat Foreman with his brains, skills and handspeed. Like Ali Foreman wasn't god, deal with it.

That is the biggest cock sucking of Ali I've ever read. Ali admitted he was out on his feat several times during the fight... so 1 decent shot by Foreman would've ended it all. Every aspect of that fight leaned towards Ali's favor. The "controlling" of the fight in the ceneter of ring accounted for hardly any of the matchup so is basically irrelivant. He sat on the ropes, and let an angry, young, and dumb Foreman tire himself out in 100 degree heat.

Also, to suggest Foreman went on to beat nobodies is laughable and proves your boxing knowledge is limited to what is on the end of Ali's cock. Michael Moorer is regarded as (in most eyes) as the best southpaw heavyweight ever. Not to mention going on to beat Lyle, Young, and Frazier (for a 2nd time).

the 30s was worse than today.

As usual, a very concise and brilliant argument formulated by Butterfly.... :rolleyes:

As usual, a very concise and brilliant argument formulated by Butterfly.... :rolleyes:

at least now the mafia doesn't control boxing. hoiw do you think primo carnera won the title in the first place?

How does Carnera and mob involvement lessen the talents and achievements of Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer, Louis (late 30's is still the 30's) Uzcadan, Galento, Loughran etc. Lots of tough guys and great boxers. I'd have to rank them much higher than the current division.

How does Carnera and mob involvement lessen the talents and achievements of Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer, Louis (late 30's is still the 30's) Uzcadan, Galento, Loughran etc. Lots of tough guys and great boxers. I'd have to rank them much higher than the current division.

usually the era that's underrated the most is the current one. so in a couple of decades, this era will be more appreciated.

usually the era that's underrated the most is the current one. so in a couple of decades, this era will be more appreciated.

This era is garbage. Lewis and Holyfield were good shit, but now with both being retired (for all intensive purposes) this current HW scene is trash. Valuev and Hasim Rahman with belts?

This era is garbage. Lewis and Holyfield were good shit, but now with both being retired (for all intensive purposes) this current HW scene is trash. Valuev and Hasim Rahman with belts?

but they gotta lose them the next time they fight though. :cool:

hoiw do you think primo carnera won the title in the first place?

Well, I see Carnera muscling Jack Sharkey back against the ropes, and then loading up on & landing a big right uppercut that put Jack down for the count...

What do you see when you watch that fight, Butterfly?

but they gotta lose them the next time they fight though. :cool:

No way Valuev is losing his next fight... isn't it against Tommy Morrison or some horrible garbage like that... In Germany no less? And even if he loses it, then Toney will get Rahman's.... As great as a fighter Toney is in many HW division's past he wouldn't even be close to obtaining a belt.

usually the era that's underrated the most is the current one. so in a couple of decades, this era will be more appreciated.

I've followed the Heavyweight division since I first started watching the sport 30 years ago, and this is as bad as it gets, Butterfly...Not by a little bit either.

I've followed the Heavyweight division since I first started watching the sport 30 years ago, and this is as bad as it gets, Butterfly...Not by a little bit either.

well, maybe your right.

well, maybe your right.

The one thing this current Heavyweight division lacks bigtime is that consensus hope for the future. Heck, even the maligned Heavyweight division 80's always had hope prevailing with some then-future prospects...whether it be the early 80's with Page, Cooney, Dokes, Thomas, etc, or the mid/late 80's with Tyson, Biggs, Tucker, etc. Plus that decade most always had a dominating champion sitting uptop of the division and giving the term "champion" & the division much credibilty...

Nowadays, it seems like every single one of the major prospects of the last couple of years are founded as flawed well before they reach the "top" of the division. And the title holders :rolleyes: ...Looks pretty bare right now for both the present and the immediate future unfortunately.

It sure does suck. The best we can hope for is guys who are entertaining and who come to fight. Sultan Ibragimov may be the best thing the heavyweights have going for them. Let's hope that as questionable as his defense seems, his punch, workrate, and heart prevail and he beats some of the name fighters that are around now. I'd already favor Sultan over Valuev and Rahman at this point just based on how relentless an attacker he was against Whitaker. Haven't seen a guy punch with such bad intentions in awhile. He really digs deep with those shots to the body.

Fighter don't have personalities anymore. In a few years practically all heavyweights will be mindless gaint eastern europeans.

That is the biggest cock sucking of Ali I've ever read. Ali admitted he was out on his feat several times during the fight... so 1 decent shot by Foreman would've ended it all. Every aspect of that fight leaned towards Ali's favor. The "controlling" of the fight in the ceneter of ring accounted for hardly any of the matchup so is basically irrelivant. He sat on the ropes, and let an angry, young, and dumb Foreman tire himself out in 100 degree heat.

Also, to suggest Foreman went on to beat nobodies is laughable and proves your boxing knowledge is limited to what is on the end of Ali's cock. Michael Moorer is regarded as (in most eyes) as the best southpaw heavyweight ever. Not to mention going on to beat Lyle, Young, and Frazier (for a 2nd time).

Im not an Ali nut-hugger at all... but you are a blinded Ali-hating bitch. Ali was out on his feet? and, that happened to him multiple times against Frazier but he had the heart and the ability to deal with it. Center ring fighting accounted for enough of the match to convince me and alot of people that in Ali's prime when hes moving laterally and fluidly he would pick Foreman to pieces... he would not be on the ropes like he was in 74'. An angry foreman? Foreman always appeared angry in the ring and if there was a rematch in 74' his mentality wasn't going to immediately change. It took him a few years and the hiring of Gil Clancy for him to become a more controlled fighter, and this style didn't work as well for him and he was BEATEN by young. Lyle was nothing special and nor was young, how many top 10 lists do you see them in?... they aren't comparable to Ali at all. Young troubled Ali but that doesn't make him a great fighter, thats merely an example of styles making fights. He went on to beat, an old, battered, blind Joe Frazier after manila - they both left their best in the ring night. A relatively young Foreman beating that version of Frazier doesn't impress at all. Michael moorer? a glass chinned, solid but not great boxer who was knocked out by Tua? He beat holyfield... but thats all. 'Every aspect of that fight leaned towards Ali's favor' - thats because Ali was the more skilled, tougher, smarter fighter. If they did rematch in 74' what would big George do differently? boxing historians note that his newfound controlled style didn't work as well as his previous. Hes going to attack Ali on the ropes in a more controlled fashion? and get outpointed via Ali's counterpunching with superior speed? and outpointed via Ali's control of what center-ring action takes place?

Your argument is the ridiculous one, that Ali could only beat Foreman 1/100 times... and that 1% chance happened to occur in the only fight they had with Foreman at his peak? bullshit

Im not an Ali-nuthugger. I acknowledge his flaws, he didn't know how to block a jab and he never worked the body. I still believe that he would beat any boxer 2/3 times from any time period in his 67' prime. And i acknowledge he could be beaten 1/3 times by the likes of holmes, frazier, and Joe Louis. But never George Foreman, 67' or 74.

Im not an Ali nut-hugger at all... but you are a blinded Ali-hating bitch. Ali was out on his feet? and, that happened to him multiple times against Frazier but he had the heart and the ability to deal with it. Center ring fighting accounted for enough of the match to convince me and alot of people that in Ali's prime when hes moving laterally and fluidly he would pick Foreman to pieces... he would not be on the ropes like he was in 74'. An angry foreman? Foreman always appeared angry in the ring and if there was a rematch in 74' his mentality wasn't going to immediately change. It took him a few years and the hiring of Gil Clancy for him to become a more controlled fighter, and this style didn't work as well for him and he was BEATEN by young. Lyle was nothing special and nor was young, how many top 10 lists do you see them in?... they aren't comparable to Ali at all. Young troubled Ali but that doesn't make him a great fighter, thats merely an example of styles making fights. He went on to beat, an old, battered, blind Joe Frazier after manila - they both left their best in the ring night. A relatively young Foreman beating that version of Frazier doesn't impress at all. Michael moorer? a glass chinned, solid but not great boxer who was knocked out by Tua? He beat holyfield... but thats all. 'Every aspect of that fight leaned towards Ali's favor' - thats because Ali was the more skilled, tougher, smarter fighter. If they did rematch in 74' what would big George do differently? boxing historians note that his newfound controlled style didn't work as well as his previous. Hes going to attack Ali on the ropes in a more controlled fashion? and get outpointed via Ali's counterpunching with superior speed? and outpointed via Ali's control of what center-ring action takes place?

Your argument is the ridiculous one, that Ali could only beat Foreman 1/100 times... and that 1% chance happened to occur in the only fight they had with Foreman at his peak? bullshit

Im not an Ali-nuthugger. I acknowledge his flaws, he didn't know how to block a jab and he never worked the body. I still believe that he would beat any boxer 2/3 times from any time period in his 67' prime. And i acknowledge he could be beaten 1/3 times by the likes of holmes, frazier, and Joe Louis. But never George Foreman, 67' or 74.

great post. 5mil points for you!

it is known foreman wanted a rematch but ali wouldnt give him one..neways heres my top ten
1. joe louis-speed, power, precision
2. ali- in his prime he could of fought anyone, im not talking about ali on the comeback trail..
3. jack johnson-ahead of his time
4. joe frazier-deadly left hook and threw hellacious shots to the body
5. ezzard charles-prolly the most underrated n unappreciated fighter ever.
6. marciano-i dont care if he beat ezzard or louis, he looked awkward in the ring and didnt use the kinda skills ezzard or louis had.
7. foreman-see above
8. liston-on his way up to the title he was a beast.
9. dempsy-the only reason i rate him so low is cause frazier, tyson and even marciano used the same style more effectivly.
10. ME!! im like the most severly undderated fighters ever, i may of learn my techniques from a tranny, but let me tell u, without it (her,him?) id never learn how to throw my horrible right uppercut or terrible left hook, i mean...the punch that ruined millions of lives...

Foreman wanted a rematch, foreman was a mental wreck. I have never seen definitive proof of Foreman wanting that match. And why would Ali fight in 76? he left his best in the ring in 75 and was going downhill quickly.

Everyone has their list of top ten heavyweights of all time here is mine. feel free to share yours also.


1)Muhammad Ali- It was amazing that a man of his physical size can move with such swiftness and agility. Was undefeated (30-0)when the title was wrongfully stripped from him in '67. Forced to stay out of boxing for three years, he went through ups and downs and 2 defeats to finally get another title shot at the age of 32 in 1974 and shocked the whole world by defeating the invincinble Big George Foreman. Two amazing title reigns and Ali was also the first man to win the Championship 3 times.

2)Joe Louis- The Brown Bomber was a deadly technician in the ring. During his title reign he faced anyone and anything that was put in front of him. Amazing number of title defenses(25!) and length of title reign.

3)George Foreman- In his early career Big George Foreman was a fighter that had the heavyweight division in fear, with an aura of invinciblity comparable to Tysons and Listons big George would have adversaries shaking in thier boots at the mention of his name. That is until he met Ali in '74. Big George was 42-0 when he lost to Ali. After the loss he went into a downward spiral that caused him to retire from boxing and becoming a preacher, didnt box for ten years. In 1988 Foreman came back with a drive to regain the heavyweight title again. And going through ups and downs he finally won back the title at the age of 45 in 1994 by KO against Michael Moorer. Amazingly regaining the title 20 years after losing it to Ali. Foreman is in the record books for the oldest man ever to win the championship at 45 years old, and also for having the 2nd highest knockout percentage in heavyweight history.

4. Rocky Marciano - The Rock was known for his amazing stamina in the ring like the energizer bunny you can keep beating him down but he just kept on coming. Incredible stamina, iron chin, unbeatable will to win, ability to knock you out with both hands, deadly body shots. What more can you ask for in a fighter. His 49-0 record still stands to this day.

5. Larry Holmes- The Easton Assassin was known for his lightning jab that was strong enough to knock you down. Holmes never got respect because unlike Ali he lacked an arch nemesis liek Ali had with Frazier, and he also ruled during a bleak period in heavyweight history. Spent 8 years as heavywieght Champ and went 48-0 before losing to Spinks almost tying Marciano's 49-0 record.

6. Joe Frazier- one word to describe him- relentless . Like Marciano you can throw everything at this guy and he'd still keep on coming. Owner of one of the deadliest left hooks in heavyweight history. The first man to beat Ali. His 3 dramatic fights with Ali made Smokin Joe Frazier a legend.

7. Lennox Lewis- During his title reign the British lion fought and defeated all the top heavyweights of his day including Holyfield and Tyson. Look at the list of all the fighters The British Lion has defeated and you'll see his place in history cannot be denied. Possessed one of the deadliest right hands in heavyweight history.

8.Evander Holyfield - Evander The Real Deal Holyfield is a man with incredible heart. Possesses one of the greatest chins of all time , this man didnt know the meaning of the word -quit. Proved the critics wrong time after time. Saying he wasnt big enough to be a Heavyweight he went on to win the title a record 4 times. His most dramtic win was when he defeated Iron Mike Tyson for the Title in 1996 when everyone wrote Holyfield off as a hasbeen.

9. Mike Tyson- Iron Mike Tyson's place in history is bittersweet to me because I feel had he stayed with trainer Kevin Rooney, Mike Tyson had the POTENTIAL to become the greatest Heavyweight Champ of all time. Everyone knows Tysons story. Tyson had incredible speed, incredible KO power, great finisher, a violent blood lust to destroy his opponent. Many of Tysons fight would not go past the 2nd round. During Tyson's 3 year reign of terror opponents feared Tyson so much that they would forget to fight back. With his black shoes no socks, black trunks, fade haircut and gym towel draped on his shoulders he had an aura of invincibility that the ring had never seen before or since. In 1988 this man was frightening, his 90 second annihilation of Michael Spinks and 4 round destruction of Larry Holmes truly made him the "Baddest man on the planet".

10. Jack Dempsey- the Monnassa Mauler- was a devestating force to be reckoned with back in his day. Knocked out Jess willard in violent fashion knocking Willards teeth out literally to win the Heavyweight Title,,,,and Dempsey was outweighed by Willard by more than 50 lbs!!!. Dempsey style was the prototype to Tyson, Tyson even borrowed Dempseys style of wearing black shoes, black shorts, fade haircut from Dempsey. Going for the knock out Dempsey could knock you out with either hand. Pure assassin.

***special note - Jack Johnson is my #11. The reason I dont have him ranked higher is because he ruled in an old time era when heavyweights would fight middleweights and even welterweights. In fact Johnson himself fought many fights with many weight mismatches. Had Johnson ruled in a "Modernised Era" he would have placed higher on my list. With that being said I believe Johnson was extremely talented and can even defeat some of the men that rank higher in my list.***


Brilliant list, Foreman should be number 2 but I can't argue too much with anything else, Holmes slightly too high maybe, good list though nice summing up of each fighter. :boxing:

TOP 10 HEAVYWEIGHTS

1.Joe Louis
2.George Foreman
3.Ali
4.Marciano
5.Mike Tyson & Sonny Liston
6.Lennox Lewis
7.Joe Fraizer
8.Evander Holyfield
9.Larry Holmes
10.Jack Dempsey


IMO

How should George Foreman be #2??
Tell me that please.

How should George Foreman be #2??
Tell me that please.
why not? because Ali won over him? had there ever been a rematch barabing*barabooom* ali would be out

and weren't you the one that rated Tyson as nr 1????

why not? because Ali won over him? had there ever been a rematch barabing*barabooom* ali would be out

and weren't you the one that rated Tyson as nr 1????

but ali was over the hill and foreman was in his prime. :rolleyes:

Some overrate Foreman. As great as he was, he doesn't belong in the top 3 imo.

Some overrate Foreman. As great as he was, he doesn't belong in the top 3 imo.

maybe his career wasn't as good as ali, louis, dempsey, etc. but if they fought foreman, most of them would lose.

maybe his career wasn't as good as ali, louis, dempsey, etc. but if they fought foreman, most of them would lose.
IMO Top 3 is wierd, the top 2 are baiscally concrete Louis and Ali are basically the top 2 hw of all time, whether you like it or not

other then that after the top 2 the 3rd is where opinion comes into play, some common thirds are foreman,frazier,etc, i'd probably put Marciano,Frazier,or Foreman, its all a matter of preference

this the most common top 3
1)Louis or Ali
2)Ali or Louis
3)Frazier or Foreman, Sometimes Marciano

Marciano's usually 5th or 6th, guys like holmes make appearances around 8, tyson's usually around 7, Dempsey's usually in the later ones too

just an obervation

why not? because Ali won over him? had there ever been a rematch barabing*barabooom* ali would be out

and weren't you the one that rated Tyson as nr 1????

Delusional.

Delusional.

definetely! if an old ali beat a prime foreman, then imagine what a young ali would do.

definetely! if an old ali beat a prime foreman, then imagine what a young ali would do.

Probably worse. The dancing style was not as effective with time. Foreman actually trained to fight Ali by practicing in sparring how to cut off the ring and pin Ali down. Foreman went into Zaire expecting to fight a dancing master, instead he got a punching bag with brains!

Although my top 3 will always be;

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Foreman

Foreman fought Ali in 1974 and expected to win and win easily. Nobody fought a prime Ali and expected an easy win so I think Foreman would do much better both mentally and physically against a young Ali. If it were in a cooler climate also Foreman would do better. I still think a young Ali would win but by UD rather than KO.

Probrably worse. The dancing style was not as effective with time. Foreman actually trained to fight Ali by practicing in sparring how to cut off the ring and pin Ali down. Foreman went into Zaire expecting to fight a dancing master, instead he got a punching bag with brains!

i still think 1967 ali would have danced circles around foreman.

i still think 1967 ali would have danced circles around foreman.

Possibly, but wouldn't have KO'd him.

Possibly, but wouldn't have KO'd him.

he still would have, cause ali would have been throwing more punches than in '74.

he still would have, cause ali would have been throwing more punches than in '74.
and you call me Delusional :rolleyes:

as much as i love Ali but he would never beat George with dancing. George would cut him off and start trowing bombs at him... plus the so called prime version of Ali appered to have a weaker chin.

But I know i cant change your mind...so we can agree to disagree ok?

and you call me Delusional :rolleyes:

as much as i love Ali but he would never beat George with dancing. George would cut him off and start trowing bombs at him... plus the so called prime version of Ali appered to have a weaker chin.

But I know i cant change your mind...so we can agree to disagree ok?

i didn't say it would be easy, but ali would still dance and out point him.

and when did prime ali have a weak chin? :confused:

i didn't say it would be easy, but ali would still dance and out point him.

and when did prime ali have a weak chin? :confused:

not "weak" chin "weaker"...he still had a good chin but when Cooper almost knocked him out what do you think Foreman would do?

a 67 would take out Foreman. Fluid lateral movement, Ali could do this throughout the fight. Ali could beat Foreman because he could fight on the backfoot, had blinding handspeed, and could absorb punishment. If you watch whatever center-ring action takes place, Ali circles, jabs, bursts in with flurries and lead rights. Absolutely dominates Foreman center-ring. The main reason Ali was and would be able to do this was his comprehension of range, of all heavyweight fighters Ali had the best comprehension of range which allowed him to punish fighters from the periphery. Ali would be able to deal with whatever punishment Foreman could inflict in 67', Historians note at this stage he had become significantly bigger, had reached his PHYSICAL peak. In 62 he hadn't, hence getting dropped by cooper. Foreman was a essentially a wild swinger, Cooper caught a young, naieve Clay with a hard, well timed, short left hook to the Jaw.

I still think Ali would win but no way would he knock Foreman out. Foreman was ehausted and dropped with flurries. He was never KO'd before or after that. He was fighting in a hot country against a guy who absorbed punishment.

Ali will out point Foreman but not KO him.

not "weak" chin "weaker"...he still had a good chin but when Cooper almost knocked him out what do you think Foreman would do?

lol, that was in ali's prime? :rolleyes:

I still think Ali would win but no way would he knock Foreman out. Foreman was ehausted and dropped with flurries. He was never KO'd before or after that. He was fighting in a hot country against a guy who absorbed punishment.

Ali will out point Foreman but not KO him.

'67 ali would make foreman even more exhausted. ali had slightly less punching power in 1967, but it was still pretty good. and plus since he wouldn't be laying on the ropes most of the time, ali would be throwing more punches. this would tire george out even quicker and ali would probably ko george in the same round he did in 1974.

maybe his career wasn't as good as ali, louis, dempsey, etc. but if they fought foreman, most of them would lose.


All you had to do with Foreman was BE SMART and you would win. All of these fighters like Marciano, Tyson, Dempsey have a small chance to beat him because of their style. But when it comes to Ali, Holmes, Louis, Foreman has no chance really.

All you had to do with Foreman was BE SMART and you would win.

no no ...you had to be able to take his punches also. Ali could, but I don't think Louis and Holmes would be able too.

they both had good chins i think they could

Prime Larry Holmes had the heart of a lion and an iron chin. I am sure he could take Foreman's punches. Joe Louis had one of the best defence ever and he had a good chin too.

Prime Larry Holmes had the heart of a lion and an iron chin. I am sure he could take Foreman's punches. Joe Louis had one of the best defence ever and he had a good chin too.
Prime Holmes is probably the most underrated Champion of all time

people don't seem to realize stuff like the fact he went 48-0 wins, 20 successful title defenses over 7 years, the only man to do better is the Joe Louis,also Holmes nearly challenged Marciano's record of 49-0 and thats the closest anyone's gotten (aside from that other non hw fighter that went 51-0-1). As Ali and louis had he never turned anyone down for a title defense. One of the reasons people don't really see Holmes as a the best is Joe had more power, Ali had more flash and pizzazz, and both had more charisma; but Larry had just as much heart and determination as the two of them and beat almost as many men of equal quality….maybe more.

Louis and Ali were made to be champions just because of what they did. Joe Louis broke the color barrier and beat Max Schmelling the german enemy of the US. Ali took on impossible odds, and won, he beat sonny liston in a shocker, he beat George Foreman, and his most popular win his win over the US government. So really boxing doesn't always make the champion the best sometimes its politics behind the boxing. So Champions like Larry Holmes who really did accomplish something didn't really get the recognition because they didn't have that polotics behind him, honestly had Ali been a quiet country boy who was fast and beat guys then no way he would be labeled the greatest, he'd be like Larry Holmes, thrown in ppl's top 10's around 8 or 7, but Ali was labeled as nuts, he talked and siked ppl out and for that ppl see him in the top 2.

Larry Holmes deserves to be in a top 10 maybe not top 5 but he should be in there somewhere

they both had good chins i think they could

joe louis' chin couldn't withstand foreman's power.

Someone is doubting Holmes's chin? He got up from that gigantic Shavers right and he would get up from anything Foreman could land.

Someone is doubting Holmes's chin? He got up from that gigantic Shavers right and he would get up from anything Foreman could land.

He would probably keep getting up but would be knocked around the ring and knocked down many times that the ref stops it. So it would be a TKO not a KO.

I really think Holmes would beat Foreman. He was very skilled and had all the tools Ali had to bring Foreman out of his gameplan. And remember, Foreman did not succesfully KO all of his opponents with his style of fighting.

1. Muhammad Ali=1964-1970, 1974-1978, 1978
2. Sonny Liston=1962-1964
3. George Foreman=1973-1974, 1994-1995
4. Joe Frazier=1970-1973
5. Larry Holmes=1978-1983
6. Mike Tyson=1986-1990, 1995-1996
7. Joe Louis=1937-1949
8. Jack Johnson=1907-1915
9. Jack Dempsey=1919-1926
10. Lennox Lewis=1993-1994, 1997-2001, 2001-2003


(11. Riddick Bowe=1992-1993
12. Evander Holyfield=1990-1992, 1993-1994, 1996-1999, 2000-2001
13. Rocky Marciano=1952-1955
14. Floyd Patterson=1956-1959, 1960-1962
15. Ezzard Charles=1949-1951)

Hope you like this one! :D :boxing:

1. Muhammad Ali=1964-1970, 1974-1978, 1978
2. Sonny Liston=1962-1964
3. George Foreman=1973-1974, 1994-1995
4. Joe Frazier=1970-1973
5. Larry Holmes=1978-1983
6. Mike Tyson=1986-1990, 1995-1996
7. Joe Louis=1937-1949
8. Jack Johnson=1907-1915
9. Jack Dempsey=1919-1926
10. Lennox Lewis=1993-1994, 1997-2001, 2001-2003


(11. Riddick Bowe=1992-1993
12. Evander Holyfield=1990-1992, 1993-1994, 1996-1999, 2000-2001
13. Rocky Marciano=1952-1955
14. Floyd Patterson=1956-1959, 1960-1962
15. Ezzard Charles=1949-1951)

Brilliant list!

Brilliant list!

thanks, i do try! :D

1. Muhammad Ali=1964-1970, 1974-1978, 1978
2. Sonny Liston=1962-1964
3. George Foreman=1973-1974, 1994-1995
4. Joe Frazier=1970-1973
5. Larry Holmes=1978-1983
6. Mike Tyson=1986-1990, 1995-1996
7. Joe Louis=1937-1949
8. Jack Johnson=1907-1915
9. Jack Dempsey=1919-1926
10. Lennox Lewis=1993-1994, 1997-2001, 2001-2003


(11. Riddick Bowe=1992-1993
12. Evander Holyfield=1990-1992, 1993-1994, 1996-1999, 2000-2001
13. Rocky Marciano=1952-1955
14. Floyd Patterson=1956-1959, 1960-1962
15. Ezzard Charles=1949-1951)

Hope you like this one! :D :boxing:

top 10 favorites- pretty cool, i can agree with most of it

Horrible list!

Horrible list!
there his personal favorites so they go on his favorite fighters list
if this was the top 10 of all time then-

eh he's got alot of fighters that should be on the top 10 list but there in a bad order-
take off liston and lewis move some fighters up and rearrange it

actually i don't think Jack Johnson should be up there either, its not racism he was the first black champion but beside that he didn't do anything reputable enough IMO

1. Muhammad Ali=1964-1970, 1974-1978, 1978
2. Sonny Liston=1962-1964
3. George Foreman=1973-1974, 1994-1995
4. Joe Frazier=1970-1973
5. Larry Holmes=1978-1983
6. Mike Tyson=1986-1990, 1995-1996
7. Joe Louis=1937-1949
8. Jack Johnson=1907-1915
9. Jack Dempsey=1919-1926
10. Lennox Lewis=1993-1994, 1997-2001, 2001-2003


(11. Riddick Bowe=1992-1993
12. Evander Holyfield=1990-1992, 1993-1994, 1996-1999, 2000-2001
13. Rocky Marciano=1952-1955
14. Floyd Patterson=1956-1959, 1960-1962
15. Ezzard Charles=1949-1951)

Hope you like this one! :D :boxing:



im very puzzled with this list. do you mind offering your reasoning?

im very puzzled with this list. do you mind offering your reasoning?
like i said i think its his top 10 favorite fighters cause it doesn't say its the top 10 fighters ever- cause if it is its very wrong

but like i said if its his top 10 favorites i could agree with most of those being butterfly's favorites :p

Sadly I do not think that's his personal favorite list, I think he really ranks those fighters in that order in terms of greatness.

Sadly I do not think that's his personal favorite list, I think he really ranks those fighters in that order in terms of greatness.

not really greatness. i rank them by how they would do against each other head-to-head in their primes.

It's personal isn't it? Joe Louis would be higher if it were an all time great one.

It's personal isn't it? Joe Louis would be higher if it were an all time great one.

no, it's not personal. i just don't believe louis could defeat the fighters that i have ranked above him, that's all.

no, it's not personal. i just don't believe louis could defeat the fighters that i have ranked above him, that's all.

Nevermind those silly "fantasy" matchups that run through your little brain...

Ken Norton > Muhammad Ali

Ok, commence excuses.

no, it's not personal. i just don't believe louis could defeat the fighters that i have ranked above him, that's all.
then Marciano should be at three under Ali and Foreman because those are guys that he'd have the most trouble, not to say he'd beat the other guys but like ya know

i can't even say that though because the entire list is just so shuffled around thats it hard to say Marciano would be in third unless all the other fighters are moved around, but Foreman would give Marciano more trouble then ali so if you were to move everything around Marciano would probably be under Foreman,ali

not to say jack dempsey, etc, wouldn't give him a good fight/run for his money

Nevermind those silly "fantasy" matchups that run through your little brain...

Ken Norton > Muhammad Ali

Ok, commence excuses.

ali beat norton twice, and he wasn't even in his prime.

ali beat norton twice, and he wasn't even in his prime.

ken norton beat him in 73 (though ali won the rematch)

i do however think ali was in his prime for dancing and footwork/handspeed in 67 as you said but honestly i think he was a better fighter after the layoff because he seemed stronger and smarter then he was in 67

ken norton beat him in 73 (though ali won the rematch)

i do however think ali was in his prime for dancing and footwork/handspeed in 67 as you said but honestly i think he was a better fighter after the layoff because he seemed stronger and smarter then he was in 67

he wasn't smarter. he just didn't need smarts in the 60s cause he was physically too good.

he wasn't smarter. he just didn't need smarts in the 60s cause he was physically too good.
yea but wouldn't that imply that he was smarter in the 70's
cause if he was smart in the 60's then he should have combined with his speed and been a fighter better then both ali's

*makes no sense does it*
any way i think Ali was physically matured in the 70's, had the lay off not happened i think ali's real prime would have been like 1967ish-1972ish

yea but wouldn't that imply that he was smarter in the 70's
cause if he was smart in the 60's then he should have combined with his speed and been a fighter better then both ali's

*makes no sense does it*
any way i think Ali was physically matured in the 70's, had the lay off not happened i think ali's real prime would have been like 1967ish-1972ish

this is true.

ali beat norton twice, and he wasn't even in his prime.

1st fight: Norton won pretty clearly.

2nd fight: Close fight and either one could've won that...I'll give Ali the slight edge, I guess, just to give him one win.

3rd fight: Norton again won pretty clearly...**** the judges!

this is true.
cause if you look Ali seems to be bigger in the 70's

1st fight: Norton won pretty clearly.

2nd fight: Close fight and either one could've won that...I'll give Ali the slight edge, I guess, just to give him one win.

3rd fight: Norton again won pretty clearly...**** the judges!

and again, ali was not prime in any of those fights.

cause if you look Ali seems to be bigger in the 70's

probably more of just a lack of training.

probably more of just a lack of training.
eh he had some fat on him so you couldn't tell if he had more muscle covered by some fat or if it was just all fat but he was still in decent condition for a 3 year layoff

eh he had some fat on him so you couldn't tell if he had more muscle covered by some fat or if it was just all fat but he was still in decent condition for a 3 year layoff

oh, you mean right after he came back? well, IMO he looked the same in 1970 as he did in 1967.

and again, ali was not prime in any of those fights.

Maybe, maybe not (lost something, gained something...evens out).

My opinion of a "fantasy" matchup with both at their bests?

Ken Norton W-15 Muhammad Ali

Therefore, according to your silly way of ranking fighters, I must now rank Norton above Ali in the historical sense of things...But shit, then I'd have to rank Cooney above Norton, because I'd always lean toward the big Irishman taking that fight. And double shit, seeing as how I don't see much difference in talent between Cooney & Buddy Baer, those two must be ranked in accordance with that line of thinking.

Ok, well I guess I've just convinced myself that Buddy Baer > Muhammad Ali.

Maybe, maybe not (lost something, gained something...evens out).

My opinion of a "fantasy" matchup with both at their bests?

Ken Norton W-15 Muhammad Ali

Therefore, according to your silly way of ranking fighters, I must now rank Norton above Ali in the historical sense of things...But shit, then I'd have to rank Cooney above Norton, because I'd always lean toward the big Irishman taking that fight. And double shit, seeing as how I don't see much difference in talent between Cooney & Buddy Baer, those two must be ranked in accordance with that line of thinking.

Ok, well I guess I've just convinced myself that Buddy Baer > Muhammad Ali.

no way norton could have beaten prime ali. he was too fast and elusive.

not really greatness. i rank them by how they would do against each other head-to-head in their primes.
you really think Liston would beat Foreman? if so how?

no way norton could have beaten prime ali. he was too fast and elusive.

Ali had slowed down just a little bit during the early 70's, but...

If the shorter armed Henry Cooper can reach "prime" Ali with the jab, then Norton certainly could with his superior reach & jab.

If Karl Mildenberger can confuse "prime" Ali with his awkward style and hurt him to the body, then the superior awkwardness and body punching prowless/power of Norton certainly could too.

If an undertrained last minute replacement like George Chuvalo can pressure Ali to the ropes, hit him with a few right hands upstairs and rake him to the body, then the superior everything of Norton certainly could.

All that equals to...Ken Norton W-15 Muhammad Ali

Isn't that how you reason your "fantasy" fight picks, my friend?

If the shorter armed Henry Cooper can reach "prime" Ali with the jab, then Norton certainly could with his superior reach & jab.

Admittidly though the clay that fought cooper was before his prime. He looked like a lanky teenager in that fight and was still honinh his skills.
I think Norton caused more problems for Ali than Frazier and I would never rule him out against any Ali.

I like what Norton said after he beat Ali; "Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee, until there was me!"

Ali had slowed down just a little bit during the early 70's, but...

If the shorter armed Henry Cooper can reach "prime" Ali with the jab, then Norton certainly could with his superior reach & jab.

If Karl Mildenberger can confuse "prime" Ali with his awkward style and hurt him to the body, then the superior awkwardness and body punching prowless/power of Norton certainly could too.

If an undertrained last minute replacement like George Chuvalo can pressure Ali to the ropes, hit him with a few right hands upstairs and rake him to the body, then the superior everything of Norton certainly could.

All that equals to...Ken Norton W-15 Muhammad Ali

Isn't that how you reason your "fantasy" fight picks, my friend?

good one yogi, but rarely does one get in an argument with butterfly1964 and win, so i guess i'll have to shut you down here. :D

ali wasn't in his prime for cooper, he was smaller, weaker, and inexperienced.

mildenberger is a southpaw, norton is not. plus that body shot from mildenberger in the tenth round is overrated. i watched it, and from what i see, about 5sec later ali looked fine and was on the offensive and guess what? in that same round where mildenberger "rocked" ali to the body, ali hit karl with a wicked right hand that dropped "miltenberger"( :D ) to the canvas so hard that karl rolled over, lol!!! :D

also did ali train hard for the chuvalo fight either? certainly not. he weighed the most he ever weighed for a fight up to that point 214 1/2lb. the heaviest he ever weighed before that was 210 1/2 against liston in '64. so ali wasn't that prepared either. and plus the chuvalo fight was one of the most lopsided fights i have ever witnessed, so i don't see how chuvalo did anything really that competitive to give himself a chance to win that fight.

also, when ali danced on norton, ken couldn't really do any thing, so prime ali would dance mostly the whole fight, and norton would definetely lose.

you really think Liston would beat Foreman? if so how?

liston has the better boxing skills, and they are close in power. liston would either out point foreman, or ko him late.

liston has the better boxing skills, and they are close in power. liston would either out point foreman, or ko him late.
Lison maybe a better boxer but no where near as strong as foreman, no wear near. Frazier was also a better boxer then Foreman, look what happened to him. Foreman would destroy liston in 3 rounds

Lison is underrated but this would be an easy bout for foreman IMO

*if not in 3 rounds in less then 6

Lison maybe a better boxer but no where near as strong as foreman, no wear near. Frazier was also a better boxer then Foreman, look what happened to him. Foreman would destroy liston in 3 rounds

Lison is underrated but this would be an easy bout for foreman IMO

*if not in 3 rounds in less then 6

frazier lost cause he's a swarmer. liston has the same style foreman has. they are close in power and strength. but liston is more technically sound than foreman. sonny's like a bigger, stronger joe louis. so liston would win by either ud or late ko, but foreman has a great chance of ending the fight, but i think liston would get the nod. :boxing:

frazier lost cause he's a swarmer. liston has the same style foreman has. they are close in power and strength. but liston is more technically sound than foreman. sonny's like a bigger, stronger joe louis. so liston would win by either ud or late ko, but foreman has a great chance of ending the fight, but i think liston would get the nod. :boxing:
I have to completely disagree

because your telling me that
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/liston-sized.jpg

will beat this

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/GeorgeForeman70s.jpg

Liston is physically p4p probably as big as Foreman and p4p Liston is probably stronger but in reality Foreman is stronger
Foreman,Shavers,Marciano,Tyson all hit harder then Liston and i'm not underrating him either because i used to rank him lower then that until i actually saw some of his fights (pics and bio's)

Foreman is taller, longer reach,Stronger,

there chins are close
Liston probably has a few more rounds of stamina and there chins are probably near equal but i still see liston going to throw a punch and Foreman just wailing him to death

If liston can get by the 6th round i'd probably give the nod to liston but i doubht it would go that long

I have to completely disagree

because your telling me that
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/liston-sized.jpg

will beat this

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/GeorgeForeman70s.jpg

Liston is physically p4p probably as big as Foreman and p4p Liston is probably stronger but in reality Foreman is stronger
Foreman,Shavers,Marciano,Tyson all hit harder then Liston and i'm not underrating him either because i used to rank him lower then that until i actually saw some of his fights (pics and bio's)

Foreman is taller, longer reach,Stronger,

there chins are close
Liston probably has a few more rounds of stamina and there chins are probably near equal but i still see liston going to throw a punch and Foreman just wailing him to death

If liston can get by the 6th round i'd probably give the nod to liston but i doubht it would go that long

punching power: foreman yes. shavers, eh, yes. marciano hell, friggin no! tyson, no!

liston has the longer reach. 84 compared to 81 1/2 of foreman.

liston has quicker hands and better boxing skills. liston would just pick him apart and embarass him with his superior boxing skills and then ko him late.

punching power: foreman yes. shavers, eh, yes. marciano hell, friggin no! tyson, no!

liston has the longer reach. 84 compared to 81 1/2 of foreman.

liston has quicker hands and better boxing skills. liston would just pick him apart and embarass him with his superior boxing skills and then ko him late.
Marciano definitely had more power then Liston because of all the leverage he put behind his punches, you can't even argue that,just because Liston gave young clay a run for his money doesn't mean it elavates him from a good fighter to a great fighter

everybody i listed there's a harder hitter then liston (maybe tyson maybe not i'm not sure)

I see liston going to throw punches and Foreman just battering him

Marciano definitely had more power then Liston because of all the leverage he put behind his punches, you can't even argue that,just because Liston gave young clay a run for his money doesn't mean it elavates him from a good fighter to a great fighter

everybody i listed there's a harder hitter then liston (maybe tyson maybe not i'm not sure)

I see liston going to throw punches and Foreman just battering him

it took 9 rounds of punching and 5 knockdowns for marciano to ko moore, but yet it took one round and one combo for liston to ko patterson. and patterson has a better chin than moore.

why would you say liston couldn't hit foreman. it could actually be the other way around.

good one yogi, but rarely does one get in an argument with butterfly1964 and win, so i guess i'll have to shut you down here. :D

ali wasn't in his prime for cooper, he was smaller, weaker, and inexperienced.

mildenberger is a southpaw, norton is not. plus that body shot from mildenberger in the tenth round is overrated. i watched it, and from what i see, about 5sec later ali looked fine and was on the offensive and guess what? in that same round where mildenberger "rocked" ali to the body, ali hit karl with a wicked right hand that dropped "miltenberger"( :D ) to the canvas so hard that karl rolled over, lol!!! :D

also did ali train hard for the chuvalo fight either? certainly not. he weighed the most he ever weighed for a fight up to that point 214 1/2lb. the heaviest he ever weighed before that was 210 1/2 against liston in '64. so ali wasn't that prepared either. and plus the chuvalo fight was one of the most lopsided fights i have ever witnessed, so i don't see how chuvalo did anything really that competitive to give himself a chance to win that fight.

also, when ali danced on norton, ken couldn't really do any thing, so prime ali would dance mostly the whole fight, and norton would definetely lose.

Oh please, you know damn well that you haven't won an argument on this forum since you first arrived here, so you certainly ain't winning this one...especially when it should've been very obvious by my "Buddy Baer > Muhammad Ali" comment that I was mostly just ****ing around with you and your silly ranking criteria.

I was speaking of the rematch with Cooper in '66 (Ali's prime), which showed that Ali could be hit with a jab by a fighter who was not the caliber, nor had the reach of Norton.

I'll watch the Mildenberger fight again tomorrow for your benifit, but certainly somebody of the German's mediocre hitting power should've have been noticably hurting Ali at all with any of his shots.

Whether Ali trained hard or not for the first Chuvalo fight, he was certainly the one who was much more prepared for that fight out of the two fighters as far as gym time went...Yeah, it was a one-sided fight (from memory I had it 13-2 for Ali, giving Chuvalo the 2nd & 6th rounds, I believe it was), but the very unprepared Chuvalo still hung tough all throughout & had some good moments throughout the fight when he was able to trap Ali in the corner or along the ropes, and hit him with the right hands uptop & especially the left hooks down low. Stamina appeared to be a factor in the mid/late goings, as Chuvalo looked much, much more tired than he did versus say Patterson (which was fought at a brisker pace that the Ali fight, and Chuvalo was the stronger fighter late). Had he had more time to prepare I think Chuvalo would've been somewhat competitive with Ali, like he was in their rematch when the older version of himself actually won more rounds in a twelve round fight than he did in the fifteen rounder...One-sided or not, Ali has always admitted that the first Chuvalo fight was one of the toughest of his career.

And besides the first couple rounds of their rematch, when did Ali have so much success when he "danced" against Norton?

It certainly didn't work for Ali in the first fight, as when in that mode he was missing with basically all of his jabs (or getting them blocked) before Norton would cut the ring off, close the distance and work Ali's body over along the ropes...Norton's sneaky right hand lead was instrumental in slowing down Ali when in that mode, and it almost seemed that Kenny couldn't miss with that punch (besides the jab, which he also rarely missed with, that was probably Norton's second most effective weapon in their first fight).

In their rematch, Ali did get off to a good start by using his legs, but once again he seemed to be missing with most of his flicks of the left hand. And while that style did slow Norton's attack in the opening rounds, it wasn't before too long when Norton was again having sucess landing the jab, sneaky lead rights, and his body work was very effective for the last three-quarters of that rematch.

i.e. Unlike your blind self, I don't see especially effective work from Ali when in his dancing mode, as he missed with the large majority of his jabs and Norton seemed to have the answers to it & succeeded in bringing Ali down off his toes (1st fight: jab & sneaky lead right hand...2nd fight: jab & excellant bodywork).

Oh please, you know damn well that you haven't won an argument on this forum since you first arrived here, so you certainly ain't winning this one...especially when it should've been very obvious by my "Buddy Baer > Muhammad Ali" comment that I was mostly just ****ing around with you and your silly ranking criteria.

I was speaking of the rematch with Cooper in '66 (Ali's prime), which showed that Ali could be hit with a jab by a fighter who was not the caliber, nor had the reach of Norton.

I'll watch the Mildenberger fight again tomorrow for your benifit, but certainly somebody of the German's mediocre hitting power should've have been noticably hurting Ali at all with any of his shots.

Whether Ali trained hard or not for the first Chuvalo fight, he was certainly the one who was much more prepared for that fight out of the two fighters as far as gym time went...Yeah, it was a one-sided fight (from memory I had it 13-2 for Ali, giving Chuvalo the 2nd & 6th rounds, I believe it was), but the very unprepared Chuvalo still hung tough all throughout & had some good moments throughout the fight when he was able to trap Ali in the corner or along the ropes, and hit him with the right hands uptop & especially the left hooks down low. Stamina appeared to be a factor in the mid/late goings, as Chuvalo looked much, much more tired than he did versus say Patterson (which was fought at a brisker pace that the Ali fight, and Chuvalo was the stronger fighter late). Had he had more time to prepare I think Chuvalo would've been somewhat competitive with Ali, like he was in their rematch when the older version of himself actually won more rounds in a twelve round fight than he did in the fifteen rounder...One-sided or not, Ali has always admitted that the first Chuvalo fight was one of the toughest of his career.

And besides the first couple rounds of their rematch, when did Ali have so much success when he "danced" against Norton?

It certainly didn't work for Ali in the first fight, as when in that mode he was missing with basically all of his jabs (or getting them blocked) before Norton would cut the ring off, close the distance and work Ali's body over along the ropes...Norton's sneaky right hand lead was instrumental in slowing down Ali when in that mode, and it almost seemed that Kenny couldn't miss with that punch (besides the jab, which he also rarely missed with, that was probably Norton's second most effective weapon in their first fight).

In their rematch, Ali did get off to a good start by using his legs, but once again he seemed to be missing with most of his flicks of the left hand. And while that style did slow Norton's attack in the opening rounds, it wasn't before too long when Norton was again having sucess landing the jab, sneaky lead rights, and his body work was very effective for the last three-quarters of that rematch.

i.e. Unlike your blind self, I don't see especially effective work from Ali when in his dancing mode, as he missed with the large majority of his jabs and Norton seemed to have the answers to it & succeeded in bringing Ali down off his toes (1st fight: jab & sneaky lead right hand...2nd fight: jab & excellant bodywork).

yeah, ali missed his jabs cause he wasn't prime, he was like 31 and had a near four year layoff. 25 yr. old ali wouldn't be missing jabs.

yeah, ali missed his jabs cause he wasn't prime, he was like 31 and had a near four year layoff. 25 yr. old ali wouldn't be missing jabs.

Yeah, of course...because we both know that the slow moving, literally & figuratively shot human punching bag by the name of Cleveland Williams is a most accurate representative of what Norton was capable of doing at his best.

I think Chuvalo would've been somewhat competitive with Ali, like he was in their rematch when the older version of himself actually won more rounds in a twelve round fight than he did in the fifteen rounder...

In the first fight Chuvalo won 2 rounds, 1 round, and 1 round on the judges score cards

In the rematch Chuvalo won 1 round, no rounds, and 2 round on the judges score cards...

In the first fight Chuvalo won 2 rounds, 1 round, and 1 round on the judges score cards

In the rematch Chuvalo won 1 round, no rounds, and 2 round on the judges score cards...


well judges are often wrong as you should know

Yeah, I'd much rather trust my own personal judgement over that of the ringside officials, and when I watched the Ali/Chuvalo rematch I thought Chuvalo won at least three of those rounds during the fight...I gave him a couple of rounds somewhere between the 3rd and 5th (or 2nd and 5th), and I also thought George won one of the very late rounds (might've even been the last round). I also thought there was one very clear Chuvalo round in about the 4th or 5th, when he cornered Ali and did some really good work to the body, so I'd really question the judge who couldn't even find one single round in Chuvalo's favour.

Ali took control of the fight from about the 6th or 7th round (there was a big round for him out of those two, when he rocked Chuvalo and really let his hands go) 'til the very late goings, but overall I thought Chuvalo performed better and also landed more shots on Ali than he did in their first fight.

Smasher, you've seen the fight...Did you score it, or even get the same impression that Chuvalo performed better when making a comparision between the two Ali/Chuvalo fights?

Yeah, I'd much rather trust my own personal judgement over that of the ringside officials, and when I watched the Ali/Chuvalo rematch I thought Chuvalo won at least three of those rounds during the fight...I gave him a couple of rounds somewhere between the 3rd and 5th (or 2nd and 5th), and I also thought George won one of the very late rounds (might've even been the last round). I also thought there was one very clear Chuvalo round in about the 4th or 5th, when he cornered Ali and did some really good work to the body, so I'd really question the judge who couldn't even find one single round in Chuvalo's favour.

Ali took control of the fight from about the 6th or 7th round (there was a big round for him out of those two, when he rocked Chuvalo and really let his hands go) 'til the very late goings, but overall I thought Chuvalo performed better and also landed more shots on Ali than he did in their first fight.

Smasher, you've seen the fight...Did you score it, or even get the same impression that Chuvalo performed better when making a comparision between the two Ali/Chuvalo fights?

Both guys fought differently. Ali was more flat-footed in the first fight and clearly wanted to be the first guy to KO Chuvalo. In the rematch Ali used more movement and seemed less intent on scoring a KO.

In the first fight Chuvalo focused mostly on the body and didn't land much to Ali's head. In the re-match Chuvalo used his jab a bit more, scored a bit more to the head but landed less body shots. All in all I would say George probably did a little better the second time around but not by a whole lot.

The first fight was in my backyard while the second was in yours!

1) Muhammad Ali
2) Joe Louis
3) Mike Tyson
4) Larry Holmes
5) Rocky Marciano
6) Jack Johnson
7) Joe Frazier
8) Lennox Lewis
9) George Foreman
10) Evander Holyfield

1) Muhammad Ali
2) Joe Louis
3) Mike Tyson
4) Larry Holmes
5) Rocky Marciano
6) Jack Johnson
7) Joe Frazier
8) Lennox Lewis
9) George Foreman
10) Evander Holyfield


Thats aight.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. George Foreman
4. Joe Frazier
5. Sonny Liston
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Mike Tyson
9. Larry Holmes
10. Evander Holyfield

See i have diffirent top 10s.

In terms of GREATNESS overall in their career.

1-Joe Louis
2-Rocky Marciano
3-Muhammed Ali
4-Mike Tyson
5-Larry Holmes
6-Evander Holyfield
7-George Foreman
8-Jack Dempsey
9-Jack Johnson
10-Lennox Lewis(Maybe not)

But skillswise, in their prime.

1-Mike Tyson
2-Joe Louis
3-Muhammed Ali
4-Larry Holmes
5-George Foreman
6-Rocky Marciano
7-Evander Holyfield
8-Sonny Liston
9-Lennox Lewis
10-Ken Norton

I might change it from time to time.

Mines based on greatness and personal ability as a fighter.

alright, i'll make two top ten lists, just to make ya'll happy.

in terms of skill...

1. muhammad ali
2. sonny liston
3. george foreman
4. joe frazier
5. larry holmes
6. mike tyson
7. joe louis
8. jack johnson
9. jack dempsey
10. lennox lewis

in terms of greatness and accomplishments...

1. muhammad ali
2. joe louis
3. jack johnson
4. jack dempsey
5. rocky marciano
6. mike tyson
7. larry holmes
8. lennox lewis
9. george foreman
10. joe frazier

hope you like them! :boxing:

You put Foreman a bit low in the accomplishments section Butterfly. He became the oldest heavyweight champ ever by KO a guy who was nearly 20 years younger than him. Great achievement on it's own and also shows that more modern heavies have no class.

alright, i'll make two top ten lists, just to make ya'll happy.

in terms of skill...

1. muhammad ali
2. sonny liston
3. george foreman
4. joe frazier
5. larry holmes
6. mike tyson
7. joe louis
8. jack johnson
9. jack dempsey
10. lennox lewis

in terms of greatness and accomplishments...

1. muhammad ali
2. joe louis
3. jack johnson
4. jack dempsey
5. rocky marciano
6. mike tyson
7. larry holmes
8. lennox lewis
9. george foreman
10. joe frazier

hope you like them! :boxing:

alright this would be perfect i you had Jack Johnson switched George Foreman, Johnson was the first black champion but beside that

Jack Dempsey may be switched with Marciano because Marciano trained more religiously, but eh its close

and Louis and Ali are close so that could go either way

so pretty good list :boxing:

alright this would be perfect i you had Jack Johnson switched George Foreman, Johnson was the first black champion but beside that

Jack Dempsey may be switched with Marciano because Marciano trained more religiously, but eh its close

and Louis and Ali are close so that could go either way

so pretty good list :boxing:

thanks. :D

alright, i'll make two top ten lists, just to make ya'll happy.

in terms of skill...

1. muhammad ali
2. sonny liston
3. george foreman
4. joe frazier
5. larry holmes
6. mike tyson
7. joe louis
8. jack johnson
9. jack dempsey
10. lennox lewis

in terms of greatness and accomplishments...

1. muhammad ali
2. joe louis
3. jack johnson
4. jack dempsey
5. rocky marciano
6. mike tyson
7. larry holmes
8. lennox lewis
9. george foreman
10. joe frazier

hope you like them! :boxing:

Joe Louis 7th? You should really re-think that statement. In terms of skill level:

1) Joe Louis
2) Muhammed Ali
3) Jack Johnson
4) Jack Dempsey
5) Gene Tunney
6) Floyd Patterson
7) Mike Tyson

Foreman is skillful... but his accomplishments are what make him great more than anything. Your list is backwards sir.

Yes, Joe Louis or Ali may be #1. You won't hear complaints from me.

Joe Louis 7th? You should really re-think that statement. In terms of skill level:

1) Joe Louis
2) Muhammed Ali
3) Jack Johnson
4) Jack Dempsey
5) Gene Tunney
6) Floyd Patterson
7) Mike Tyson

there is no way louis could beat the guys i have have ranked above him in the first list.

1) Jack Dempsey
2) Rocky Marciano
3) Gene Tunney
4) Tommy Morrison
5) John L. Sullivan
6) James Jeffries
7) Tommy Burns
8) Bob Fitzsimmons
9) Corrie Sanders
10) Nikolai Valuev

1) Jack Dempsey
2) Rocky Marciano
3) Gene Tunney
4) Tommy Morrison
5) John L. Sullivan
6) James Jeffries
7) Tommy Burns
8) Bob Fitzsimmons
9) Corrie Sanders
10) Nikolai Valuev

don't tell me, you're white, right? you should be banned for your idiotic racism! :mad: :mad:

don't tell me, you're white, right? you should be banned for your idiotic racism! :mad: :mad:

Lol, I was just kidding man, at least I didn't say
"Chuck Norris is the best with a round house kick to the face"

1) Jack Dempsey
2) Rocky Marciano
3) Gene Tunney
4) Tommy Morrison
5) Joe Louis
6) George Foreman
7) Joe Frazier
8) Muhammad Ali
9) Lennox Lewis
10) Evander Holyfield

**Note** The reason I rated Ali 8th is just my own personal opinion because I don't like boxers that stay on the ropes the whole time, I like in-boxers. Also, he lost to both Foreman and Frazier (I know, there was an age difference). Finally, I added some more people in there this time that are my favorite. **End Note**

Lol, I was just kidding man, at least I didn't say
"Chuck Norris is the best with a round house kick to the face"

1) Jack Dempsey
2) Rocky Marciano
3) Gene Tunney
4) Tommy Morrison
5) Joe Louis
6) George Foreman
7) Joe Frazier
8) Muhammad Ali
9) Lennox Lewis
10) Evander Holyfield

**Note** The reason I rated Ali 8th is just my own personal opinion because I don't like boxers that stay on the ropes the whole time, I like in-boxers. Also, he lost to both Foreman and Frazier (I know, there was an age difference). Finally, I added some more people in there this time that are my favorite. **End Note**

number one, foreman didn't beat ali. number two why the hell is tommy morrison on your list?

My bad, you can make fun of me for that, I was thinking Larry Holmes and put Foreman. Anyways, I just put Morris up there because I kind of knew him and he was fairly good and would have been better if he didn't test positive for HIV. However, the main downfall for him is that he used steroids :(
Tommy Morrison 46-3-1 (40KO's)

My bad, you can make fun of me for that, I was thinking Larry Holmes and put Foreman. Anyways, I just put Morris up there because I kind of knew him and he was fairly good and would have been better if he didn't test positive for HIV. However, the main downfall for him is that he used steroids :(
Tommy Morrison 46-3-1 (40KO's)

a top ten list shouldn't be who you liked, it's who you think was good.

Lol, I was just kidding man, at least I didn't say
"Chuck Norris is the best with a round house kick to the face"

1) Jack Dempsey
2) Rocky Marciano
3) Gene Tunney
4) Tommy Morrison
5) Joe Louis
6) George Foreman
7) Joe Frazier
8) Muhammad Ali
9) Lennox Lewis
10) Evander Holyfield

**Note** The reason I rated Ali 8th is just my own personal opinion because I don't like boxers that stay on the ropes the whole time, I like in-boxers. Also, he lost to both Foreman and Frazier (I know, there was an age difference). Finally, I added some more people in there this time that are my favorite. **End Note**

ali at 8th

tommy morrison at 4th

and foreman beat ali?

please explain yourselve

ali at 8th

tommy morrison at 4th

and foreman beat ali?

please explain yourselve

he's a racist, plain and simple.

he's a racist, plain and simple.

Why is he a racist? Because he has white people in his top 10?

I just think he is someone who doesn't know boxing.

Why is he a racist? Because he has white people in his top 10?

I just think he is someone who doesn't know boxing.

either that or he's racist.

Even racists wouldn't have Valuev in their top 10!

Rofl, you guys need to read my post, I was just messing around since everyone's top 10 were all the same people.

he's a racist, plain and simple.

the all white top ten was obiusly a joke.

i think he is more off an idiot than racist.

and stop using the racist as an arguement

Lol, I was just kidding man, at least I didn't say
"Chuck Norris is the best with a round house kick to the face"

1) Jack Dempsey
2) Rocky Marciano
3) Gene Tunney
4) Tommy Morrison
5) Joe Louis
6) George Foreman
7) Joe Frazier
8) Muhammad Ali
9) Lennox Lewis
10) Evander Holyfield

**Note** The reason I rated Ali 8th is just my own personal opinion because I don't like boxers that stay on the ropes the whole time, I like in-boxers. Also, he lost to both Foreman and Frazier (I know, there was an age difference). Finally, I added some more people in there this time that are my favorite. **End Note**

Put down your crack pipe.

What in god's name did Morrison do to deserve a ranking within 30 spaces of Louis or Ali? Yet he is above them? And by the sounds of it - the only Ali fight you have seen is the Foreman fight, because you think all he did was stay on the ropes. Yet you couldnt have seen it, cos you said Foreman won!!!! I pity you....fool.

yes, i've changed my top ten list again, and this time, i think it's for good. i don't think it will get any better than this in terms of head-tohead matchups:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Sonny Liston
3. George Foreman
4. Mike Tyson
5. Larry Holmes
6. Joe Louis
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Jack Johnson
10. Lennox Lewis

there!

Terrible list.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Rocky Marciano (can be switched with 3)
3. Joe Louis (can be switched with 2)
4. George Foreman
5. Joe Frazier
6. Larry Holmes
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Mike Tyson
9. Sonny Liston/James Jeffries (cheating to have 2?)
10. Archie Moore

Louis would probably be number 2 for sure if his chin was proven to be better. I believe Rocky on his best night could defeat anyone in history. Ali could probably beat anyone 2/3 times so I have him at 1 for now but if someone puts him at 2, I wouldn't argue.

Terrible list.

elaborate.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Rocky Marciano (can be switched with 3)
3. Joe Louis (can be switched with 2)
4. George Foreman
5. Joe Frazier
6. Larry Holmes
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Mike Tyson
9. Sonny Liston/James Jeffries (cheating to have 2?)
10. Archie Moore

Louis would probably be number 2 for sure if his chin was proven to be better. I believe Rocky on his best night could defeat anyone in history. Ali could probably beat anyone 2/3 times so I have him at 1 for now but if someone puts him at 2, I wouldn't argue.
i agree with you on this list except i'd have Joe Louis ahead of Ali


and thats true as well

yes, i've changed my top ten list again, and this time, i think it's for good. i don't think it will get any better than this in terms of head-tohead matchups:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Sonny Liston
3. George Foreman
4. Mike Tyson
5. Larry Holmes
6. Joe Louis
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Jack Johnson
10. Lennox Lewis

there!

that is a bad list. why u got sony so damn high
:confused: :confused:

that is a bad list. why u got sony so damn high
:confused: :confused:

because he's that good. he's one of the hardest hitters of all time and his jab could knock you out.

because he's that good. he's one of the hardest hitters of all time and his jab could knock you out.


over joe louis? come on now think about that 1. hell even tyson :eek:

over joe louis? come on now think about that 1. hell even tyson :eek:

louis has a weak chin. liston's quick jabs and straight rights would tear into louis and knock him out in about 4 rounds. tyson is a swarming fighter, and that is suicide against a slugger with a long reach and quick powerful jab like liston(foreman too).

Its good to see that most people have Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis in the top two spots, where doesn't bother me. All depends on how you rate their achievements. Joe was more dominant, Ali fought better opposition... i personally favour Ali's achievement beating Liston, Frazier and Foreman and him displaying ability to achieve in the face of adversity throughout his career over Joes complete dominance and technical brilliance. The gap between the men, if any.. is paper thin at best.

1) Muhammad Ali
2) Joe Louis
3) Larry Holmes
4) George Foreman
5) Jack Dempsey
6) Rocky Marciano
7) Joe Frazier
8) Mike Tyson
9) Sonny Liston
10)Lennox Lewis

My list changes from time to time.. but thats how i feel about it now.

Its quite possible that Jack Johnson should be in there over some of the men i have listed, but i need to learn a bit more about him... read more before i can judge, my knowledge pre-dempsey is poor at best.

Its good to see that most people have Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis in the top two spots, where doesn't bother me. All depends on how you rate their achievements. Joe was more dominant, Ali fought better opposition... i personally favour Ali's achievement beating Liston, Frazier and Foreman and him displaying ability to achieve in the face of adversity throughout his career over Joes complete dominance and technical brilliance. The gap between the men, if any.. is paper thin at best.

1) Muhammad Ali
2) Joe Louis
3) Larry Holmes
4) George Foreman
5) Jack Dempsey
6) Rocky Marciano
7) Joe Frazier
8) Mike Tyson
9) Sonny Liston
10)Lennox Lewis

My list changes from time to time.. but thats how i feel about it now.

Its quite possible that Jack Johnson should be in there over some of the men i have listed, but i need to learn a bit more about him... read more before i can judge, my knowledge pre-dempsey is poor at best.

no he wasn't. if ali wasn't striiped of the title, he would have much more title defenses than louis.

no he wasn't. if ali wasn't striiped of the title, he would have much more title defenses than louis.

Pure speculation.

Pure speculation.

what do you mean pure speculation? louis had 25. ali had 19. during those three years do you think anybody could have beaten prime ali. nope, they sure couldn't. not frazier, not quarry, not norton, not ellis, and not bonavena. so, im sure in three years ali would fight seven times at least. :rolleyes:

Pure speculation.

That it is...and I find it funny & hypocritical how Butterfly is only giving Ali credit for extra title defenses in the "what if" scheme of things, and not Louis.

what do you mean pure speculation? louis had 25. ali had 19. during those three years do you think anybody could have beaten prime ali. nope, they sure couldn't. not frazier, not quarry, not norton, not ellis, and not bonavena. so, im sure in three years ali would fight seven times at least. :rolleyes:

Frazier would have had a shot...besides, what about Louis' four years of inactivity?

Frazier would have had a shot...besides, what about Louis' four years of inactivity?

yeah, and when louis came back he beat up on bums like tammi mauriello. when ali came back, he had to fight people like frazier and norton. :rolleyes:

That it is...and I find it funny & hypocritical how Butterfly is only giving Ali credit for extra title defenses in the "what if" scheme of things, and not Louis.

difference is, when louis came back, he was still champion. when ali came back, he had to gain it back. so ali lost basically seven years of title defenses and louis lost only three.

Yeah, how many extra title defenses would Louis have made if not for WW2 Butterfly? Answer that one. Also you assume that Ali would have beaten a prime Frazier without question is well...do I even need to say it? Okay, it's ridiculous. A joke. Like your list of heavyweight champions. Joe Louis in the 6th place? It's an insult. Liston at #2? Good for a laugh but then I realized that you're actually serious.

Yeah, how many extra title defenses would Louis have made if not for WW2 Butterfly? Answer that one. Also you assume that Ali would have beaten a prime Frazier without question is well...do I even need to say it? Okay, it's ridiculous. A joke. Like your list of heavyweight champions. Joe Louis in the 6th place? It's an insult. Liston at #2? Good for a laugh but then I realized that you're actually serious.

frazier barely beat a slower ali, so i doubt he would beat a prime one.

My top 10;

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. George Foreman
5. Joe Frazier
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Mike Tyson
8. Sonny Liston
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Lennox Lewis

My top 10;

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. George Foreman
5. Joe Frazier
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Mike Tyson
8. Sonny Liston
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Lennox Lewis

you put dempsey above foreman?

you put dempsey above foreman?

I'm basing on achievements/ reign length among other things. Both of Foremans reigns were short.

Dempsey would lose badly against Foreman but I'm not basing the list on head to head match ups.

In a head to head style of the top 10 i'd arrange it like this;

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Joe Louis
4. Joe Frazier
5. Sonny Liston
6. Mike Tyson
7. Larry Holmes
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Lennox Lewis

I think I've already done this on this thread; but might have altered a few posistions since then...don't remember. Oh well:


1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Jack Johnson
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Mike Tyson
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Joe Frazier
10. George Foreman

here's another 5...

11. Jim Jeffries
12. Evander Holyfield
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Charles "Sonny" Liston
15. Gene Tunney

yeah, and when louis came back he beat up on bums like tammi mauriello. when ali came back, he had to fight people like frazier and norton. :rolleyes:
** When Joe came back, he was past his best days and entering a traditional age of decline for athletes. When Ali came back, he was still in his physical prime. You really need to study up kid.

Doing a top ten list entirely on "who beats who" is a terrible idea Butterfly. Do you really think that Liston would beat all those guys underneath him on your list, even taking into consideration all of the different styles of those men?

If you do, well, I guess I'm not surprised.

Doing a top ten list entirely on "who beats who" is a terrible idea Butterfly.

I agree with that 100%, and it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when I see all-time lists/rankings made up predominately on a mythical "head-to-head" basis (that's not directly at Butterfly, because I see all too often elsewhere). I personally don't mind if there is some semblance of that in one's criteria (a small amount...maybe as a tie-breaker between a couple of guys or something), but if you ask me all-time rankings should almost entirely be based on what the fighter(s) actually DID do during their respective times...not on some unprovable theory what they may or may not have be able to do with others of different times.

I agree with that 100%, and it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when I see all-time lists/rankings made up predominately on a mythical "head-to-head" basis (that's not directly at Butterfly, because I see all too often elsewhere). I personally don't mind if there is some semblance of that in one's criteria (a small amount...maybe as a tie-breaker between a couple of guys or something), but if you ask me all-time rankings should almost entirely be based on what the fighter(s) actually DID do during their respective times...not on some unprovable theory what they may or may not have be able to do with others of different times.

Agreed 100% from the peanut gallery.

Head to head Liston beating Foreman Fraizer Tyson Marciano Louis Dempsey

that just laughable

yea a swarmer vs a slugger like foreman is sucide but liston is not nearly as strong as Foreman, and Frazier hits alot harder then Liston as does Dempsey, Foreman, Tyson and Marciano, Possibley even Louis

Liston was a good slugger, very strong, great jab, but your blowing him WAY out of proportion to make it look like young clay beat a great hw or something. Point is Liston wasn't even prime fighting clay, and Liston wasn't that great to begin with, he was good but not top10,


Louis didn't get stripped of his title because he went to war and he didn't have to wait for a draft officer to call his name because he signed up because he loved the country that was filling his pocket with money.

Head to head Liston beating Foreman Fraizer Tyson Marciano Louis Dempsey

that just laughable

yea a swarmer vs a slugger like foreman is sucide but liston is not nearly as strong as Foreman, and Frazier hits alot harder then Liston as does Dempsey, Foreman, Tyson and Marciano, Possibley even Louis

Liston was a good slugger, very strong, great jab, but your blowing him WAY out of proportion to make it look like young clay beat a great hw or something. Point is Liston wasn't even prime fighting clay, and Liston wasn't that great to begin with, he was good but not top10,


Louis didn't get stripped of his title because he went to war and he didn't have to wait for a draft officer to call his name because he signed up because he loved the country that was filling his pocket with money.

liston hit waaaaay harder than marciano dempsey frazier and tyson could ever dream of. the only people besides ali that liston might lose to is foreman and holmes. marciano only weighed about 185 and dempsey was only 190, so how do you figure than they hit harder than liston? have you ever seen liston fight besides the two ali fights? obviously you haven't. frazier doesn't punch as hard as liston, cause if he did, he wouldn't need to swarm into opponents to break them down, he would just become a slugger and do just fine wouldn't he? foreman punches harder than liston, but not way harder. liston was a powerful man. he knocked people out with his jab alone, and i don't mean a series of jabs, i mean one jab! so rocky'fan your just not making any sense.

liston hit waaaaay harder than marciano dempsey frazier and tyson could ever dream of. the only people besides ali that liston might lose to is foreman and holmes. marciano only weighed about 185 and dempsey was only 190, so how do you figure than they hit harder than liston? have you ever seen liston fight besides the two ali fights? obviously you haven't. frazier doesn't punch as hard as liston, cause if he did, he wouldn't need to swarm into opponents to break them down, he would just become a slugger and do just fine wouldn't he? foreman punches harder than liston, but not way harder. liston was a powerful man. he knocked people out with his jab alone, and i don't mean a series of jabs, i mean one jab! so rocky'fan your just not making any sense.
your doing what many others do assuming that weight makes punching power. It doesn't ali was over 200 lbs and he didn't even hit near as hard Marciano or Dempsey, no where near. And you say Frazier would have been a slugger not a swarmer, also not true. Just because you have a hard punch doesn't mean you should/have to be a slugger. From what i've read Foreman would have been alot better off if he had been a swarmer so your wrong.

Liston did not hit as hard as Marciano, or Dempsey, and if you say he hit harder then Frazier or Tyson your out of your mind. Tyson for sure hit alot harder then Liston. Tyson had an over 2200 PSI for his punch, and Frazier (i venture to say) hits harder then Marciano and Dempsey and maybe even harder then Tyson. Tyson was a very hard hitting hw and he was a swarmer not a slugger

so you need to stop making Sonny Liston seem like he belongs at number two because he doesn't, if he does its at 8 or below.

liston hit waaaaay harder than marciano dempsey frazier and tyson could ever dream of. the only people besides ali that liston might lose to is foreman and holmes. marciano only weighed about 185 and dempsey was only 190, so how do you figure than they hit harder than liston? have you ever seen liston fight besides the two ali fights? obviously you haven't. frazier doesn't punch as hard as liston, cause if he did, he wouldn't need to swarm into opponents to break them down, he would just become a slugger and do just fine wouldn't he? foreman punches harder than liston, but not way harder. liston was a powerful man. he knocked people out with his jab alone, and i don't mean a series of jabs, i mean one jab! so rocky'fan your just not making any sense.

Prove that Liston hit harder than these guys, let's see the evidence. Liston had a very good punch, an underrated left hook especially, but a lot of his victories were on account of his great jab and all around boxing skill. Watching him and Louis on film, I think Louis looks like the harder, more fluid puncher and he also KO'ed larger men with better chins than Liston did.

your doing what many others do assuming that weight makes punching power. It doesn't ali was over 200 lbs and he didn't even hit near as hard Marciano or Dempsey, no where near. And you say Frazier would have been a slugger not a swarmer, also not true. Just because you have a hard punch doesn't mean you should/have to be a slugger. From what i've read Foreman would have been alot better off if he had been a swarmer so your wrong.

Liston did not hit as hard as Marciano, or Dempsey, and if you say he hit harder then Frazier or Tyson your out of your mind. Tyson for sure hit alot harder then Liston. Tyson had an over 2200 PSI for his punch, and Frazier (i venture to say) hits harder then Marciano and Dempsey and maybe even harder then Tyson. Tyson was a very hard hitting hw and he was a swarmer not a slugger

so you need to stop making Sonny Liston seem like he belongs at number two because he doesn't, if he does its at 8 or below.

like i said prove that little marciano or skinny dempsey hit harder than liston and i'll shut up. it took a series of rounds for frazier to wear down and floor ali, and it's not like ali was hard to hit either. ali was slower and he was right there to hit, yet frazier had to keep hitting him to hurt him. liston fought a much faster ali and with one head shot and a couple of body shots he hurt ali big time and almost knocked him out, so liston hits harder.

tyson, well, it's close, but i'll still have to give it to liston cause again i've seen liston do worse things to people in the ring than tyson did. tyson has faster hands, so that's why he may have hurt people quicker cause he got more snap into it, but he still didn't have the raw power that liston had.

Prove that Liston hit harder than these guys, let's see the evidence. Liston had a very good punch, an underrated left hook especially, but a lot of his victories were on account of his great jab and all around boxing skill. Watching him and Louis on film, I think Louis looks like the harder, more fluid puncher and he also KO'ed larger men with better chins than Liston did.

do you honestly think that it would take 13 rounds for liston to beat jersey joe walcott? or 9 rounds to fininsh archie moore? liston would knock them all out in one round! also, liston would not have to knock down luis firpo nine times in order for him to stay down. or knock down jess willard 15 times, and dempsey didn't really even knock him out, he quit on his stool. and just because abe somon and buddy baer were 250+ doesn't mean they had good chins.

do you honestly think that it would take 13 rounds for liston to beat jersey joe walcott? or 9 rounds to fininsh archie moore? liston would knock them all out in one round! also, liston would not have to knock down luis firpo nine times in order for him to stay down. or knock down jess willard 15 times, and dempsey didn't really even knock him out, he quit on his stool. and just because abe somon and buddy baer were 250+ doesn't mean they had good chins.

put him in marciano's shoes yea

Proof:
Ok this has nothing to do with chin or how much good a boxer the opponent is so don't even use that- has liston broken anyones arms in the ring with just punches, how bout clood clots in the arms. Now the boxer could be really good but if he blocks alot of hard shots that will happen. Has Liston ever made someone vomit blood, or piss blood for weeks. That really has nothing to do with how good there body is thats how strong the punch is. It busts up the inner organs.

none of those things had to do with chin or how good a boxer someone was or how good ther body was, that was punching power. any of those things could have happened to ali if he got hit with hard enough punches, liston never did that.

Also just because Liston is over 200+ lbs doesn't mean he hits hard, Also lets see a not prime Liston fought a before prime clay, he wasn't completely mature he was fast but not as strong as he would be later, Liston lands a few good shots and Clay is wollbled, ok well lets see early Ali's entire figthing was based on stick and move because he had such amazing speed. Later like when frazier fought ali, ali's speed was gone, and Ali knew it so he based his stradgy more on counter punching and being able to take a punch. I believe Ali in the 70's could take a much harder punch then Clay of 60's. Think about the clay that fought Liston would never be able to stand up to the blows of Foreman so the fact that you say because Liston rocked a young clay doesn't mean anything because clay couldn't take as hard a punch

By your logic, Ingemar Johansson was much more powerful than Liston as he KO'ed Machen in one round while Liston had to settle for a decision.

put him in marciano's shoes yea

Proof:
Ok this has nothing to do with chin or how much good a boxer the opponent is so don't even use that- has liston broken anyones arms in the ring with just punches, how bout clood clots in the arms. Now the boxer could be really good but if he blocks alot of hard shots that will happen. Has Liston ever made someone vomit blood, or piss blood for weeks. That really has nothing to do with how good there body is thats how strong the punch is. It busts up the inner organs.

none of those things had to do with chin or how good a boxer someone was or how good ther body was, that was punching power. any of those things could have happened to ali if he got hit with hard enough punches, liston never did that.

Also just because Liston is over 200+ lbs doesn't mean he hits hard, Also lets see a not prime Liston fought a before prime clay, he wasn't completely mature he was fast but not as strong as he would be later, Liston lands a few good shots and Clay is wollbled, ok well lets see early Ali's entire figthing was based on stick and move because he had such amazing speed. Later like when frazier fought ali, ali's speed was gone, and Ali knew it so he based his stradgy more on counter punching and being able to take a punch. I believe Ali in the 70's could take a much harder punch then Clay of 60's. Think about the clay that fought Liston would never be able to stand up to the blows of Foreman so the fact that you say because Liston rocked a young clay doesn't mean anything because clay couldn't take as hard a punch

liston would have done those same things and worse if he used those small gloves that marciano used and was weak enough so that his opponent wouldn't get knocked out with the first punch he threw soas to give him enough time to do that. :rolleyes:

By your logic, Ingemar Johansson was much more powerful than Liston as he KO'ed Machen in one round while Liston had to settle for a decision.

machen boxed around liston.

liston would have done those same things and worse if he used those small gloves that marciano used and was weak enough so that his opponent wouldn't get knocked out with the first punch he threw soas to give him enough time to do that. :rolleyes:
What? Liston up until about the early 60's used the same gloves Marciano used, and then he went up to 12oz but only for some fights. You do realize even today the standard glove for a professional fight is 10oz which has been use since the time of Marciano. so by saying the 2 oz made that much of a difference because even if he didn't break their arms he should have at least given them internal bleeding or something.

Even so i don't even think he used 12oz gloves that much

Marciano and Liston both used 10oz gloves

Walcott boxed around Marciano.

Walcott boxed around Marciano.

walcott still got hit alot and took the punches. he couldn't take liston's punches.

Machen still got hit by Liston's punches, and yet he went the distance. Yet he couldn't last one round with Ingo.

Machen still got hit by Liston's punches, and yet he went the distance. Yet he couldn't last one round with Ingo.
and Marciano and Liston both used the same size gloves

do you honestly think that it would take 13 rounds for liston to beat jersey joe walcott? or 9 rounds to fininsh archie moore? liston would knock them all out in one round! also, liston would not have to knock down luis firpo nine times in order for him to stay down. or knock down jess willard 15 times, and dempsey didn't really even knock him out, he quit on his stool. and just because abe somon and buddy baer were 250+ doesn't mean they had good chins.

Actually...Walcott, from a style perspective, beats Lison, IMO.

Actually...Walcott, from a style perspective, beats Lison, IMO.

yeah, with walcott's china chin he would beat liston? get out of here!

yeah, with walcott's china chin he would beat liston? get out of here!

I'll admit his chin wasn't concrete; but he went 12 rounds with Marciano and 25 with Louis, so it can't be porcelin. Liston had a good jab; but was suceptable to good durable technicians. Walcott was slick as goose grease and I think Liston would have had a helluva time landing solid enough to kayo him.

Butterfly lives in a fantasy world where Walcott's chin is glass because he says it is. You should try engaging him in a boxing debate, it's quite the experience.

Butterfly...How do you figure Cream's chin was glass?

You should try engaging him in a boxing debate, it's quite the experience.

Or you could repeatedly bang your head against a brick wall for equal effect.

Or you could repeatedly bang your head against a brick wall for equal effect.

:rofl:

Butterfly..nevermind. :D

:rofl:

Butterfly..nevermind. :D

Hey, it's the truth, my friend, and I think nearly everyone on here who has engaged Butterfly in the past are now suffering from severe codeine addictions.

Hey, it's the truth, my friend, and I think nearly everyone on here who has engaged Butterfly in the past are now suffering from severe codeine addictions.
I consider myself warned. :D

just look at how many times he's been ko'd at look at who ko'd him. :rolleyes:

your doing what many others do assuming that weight makes punching power. It doesn't ali was over 200 lbs and he didn't even hit near as hard Marciano or Dempsey, no where near. And you say Frazier would have been a slugger not a swarmer, also not true. Just because you have a hard punch doesn't mean you should/have to be a slugger. From what i've read Foreman would have been alot better off if he had been a swarmer so your wrong.

Liston did not hit as hard as Marciano, or Dempsey, and if you say he hit harder then Frazier or Tyson your out of your mind. Tyson for sure hit alot harder then Liston. Tyson had an over 2200 PSI for his punch, and Frazier (i venture to say) hits harder then Marciano and Dempsey and maybe even harder then Tyson. Tyson was a very hard hitting hw and he was a swarmer not a slugger

so you need to stop making Sonny Liston seem like he belongs at number two because he doesn't, if he does its at 8 or below.

tysons psi is over 2200.Thats not humanly possible .

tysons psi is over 2200.Thats not humanly possible .
well then tyson's in human because Foreman's is over 2000 PSI and over tyson's

tyson's was like 2261 or something like that

tysons punching power was never measured .

tysons punching power was never measured .
i remember seeing it somewhere

and i do know foremans was over 2000

do you mean you saw it on tv , who elses punching power was measured?. was it a punching tournament ?.

rocky'fan, you obviously don't know how good or powerful lston was. he definetely hit harder than frazier.

do you mean you saw it on tv , who elses punching power was measured?. was it a punching tournament ?.
my friends dad read it in something but like its not like he would make it up

don't get me wrong it was a reliable source cause he had the article (cut out) and showed me

rocky'fan, you obviously don't know how good or powerful lston was. he definetely hit harder than frazier.
or maybe i made a good point and you can't think of a better response

your blowing liston up to be so great because clay beat him. Frazier hit harder. another good reference (imo not as good as the examples) is even fight night ranks liston 85 and frazier 97

so

Tyson's psi is not over 2200, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Tyson's psi is not over 2200, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
hey i could be wrong but i'm just relaying what i heard (from what i would call a reliable source)

actually looking back at it the article was true but I think i may have gotten the numbers mixed up

i have to check brb

Tyson's psi is not over 2200, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

kid achilles, who do you think hit harder, frazier or liston? not who was a better fighter, just who hit harder or had more power in their hands? be honest. ;)

No fighter except ivan drago has a PSI at 2000.


foreman and mike tyson dont even come close to 2000

No fighter except ivan drago has a PSI at 2000.


foreman and mike tyson dont even come close to 2000

didn't drago have a 3000psi? :D

I disagree with putting Tyson on a Top Ten list. If you can't think of anybody else, maybe. But otherwise no.

I've seen quite a bit of both fighters and if you ask me...I'd give Liston the advantage over Frazier in pure punching power.

I've seen quite a bit of both fighters and if you ask me...I'd give Liston the advantage over Frazier in pure punching power.

thank you, yogi.

I disagree with putting Tyson on a Top Ten list. If you can't think of anybody else, maybe. But otherwise no.


he dominated in the 80s. 85-90 thats half a decade. enough said

I'd give Liston the advantage over Frazier, but I don't think Frazier hit as hard as either Dempsey or Marciano.

Frazier's left hook was harder than any punch Liston could throw.

I've seen Buster Douglass KO a guy with a jab but that does that mean he could punch harder than Frazier?

Head to head Liston beating Foreman Fraizer Tyson Marciano Louis Dempsey

that just laughable

yea a swarmer vs a slugger like foreman is sucide but liston is not nearly as strong as Foreman, and Frazier hits alot harder then Liston as does Dempsey, Foreman, Tyson and Marciano, Possibley even Louis

Liston was a good slugger, very strong, great jab, but your blowing him WAY out of proportion to make it look like young clay beat a great hw or something. Point is Liston wasn't even prime fighting clay, and Liston wasn't that great to begin with, he was good but not top10,


Louis didn't get stripped of his title because he went to war and he didn't have to wait for a draft officer to call his name because he signed up because he loved the country that was filling his pocket with money.

Its hard to judge punching power. Based on what i have seen, read and percieve as the general concensus among historians i would give the edge to Liston.

Why did you have to bring politics and attack someone for what they did out of the ring in a thread of this nature?

First off no-one filled his pockets, Joe got in the ring, Joe put his life at risk, Joe kicked ass, and Joe EARNED his money... no-one GAVE him anything. Joe loved that country, the country that denied him access to resturants, made him stand up on a Bus, sit at the back row in the so called house of the lord. Joe Louis supported a fight against an imminent threat, a fight that was genuinely required to protect the American people... not one driven by obscure political motivations, not one that resulted in the loss of civillian and military life yet achieved nothing.

** When Joe came back, he was past his best days and entering a traditional age of decline for athletes. When Ali came back, he was still in his physical prime. You really need to study up kid.

Ali was still in his physical prime yes, no doubt. You forget to acknowledge the fact that Ali was completely inactive during 3 years of what probably would be his best years 25-28, and unlike Joe discontinued training. Joe went to war at the age of 29... so in reality he was entering 'a traditional age of decline for athletes' when joined the army. Regardless im pretty sure Joe would of ripped through all the competition during his army years. In regard to one of butterflys posts, Ali would always struggle with Frazier... the notion that he would definately defeat him is ridiculous, id favour him in a trilogy but it would always be a life and death struggle. Joe Louis at 6th? I really hope thats a joke.... throw his name in boxing rec, look at what comes up on your screen, and then justify not having him in your top 5 even... he really should be in the top 2.

Ali was still in his physical prime yes, no doubt. You forget to acknowledge the fact that Ali was completely inactive during 3 years of what probably would be his best years 25-28, and unlike Joe discontinued training. Joe went to war at the age of 29... so in reality he was entering 'a traditional age of decline for athletes' when joined the army. Regardless im pretty sure Joe would of ripped through all the competition during his army years. In regard to one of butterflys posts, Ali would always struggle with Frazier... the notion that he would definately defeat him is ridiculous, id favour him in a trilogy but it would always be a life and death struggle. Joe Louis at 6th? I really hope thats a joke.... throw his name in boxing rec, look at what comes up on your screen, and then justify not having him in your top 5 even... he really should be in the top 2.

louis is too slow for ali and holmes, whom both would run circles around louis given the fact that louis always had trouble with movers(walcott, conn, nova, pastor, charles, etc.) foreman, liston, and tyson would overwhelm louis, cause of louis' substandard chin. plus foreman, liston and tyson all have very good if not great chins, and have stood up to big punchers before. they all would be too much for louis. so that's 5 people i named, ali, liston, foreman, tyson, and holmes, so that would leave louis at number 6.

well then tyson's in human because Foreman's is over 2000 PSI and over tyson's

tyson's was like 2261 or something like that

2261 psi has to be wrong , i heard it tysons 580 psi and foreman was 610 or something like that , bruno punch pwer was measured an it was found to more than foreman and tysons .

Kevin Rooney said on Tysontalk that Tyson's punching power was never measured.

They did it on Bruno, and the guy is one of the hardest hitters ever.

Kevin Rooney said on Tysontalk that Tyson's punching power was never measured.

They did it on Bruno, and the guy is one of the hardest hitters ever.
Actually you mean steve loitt and what he meant was that tysons punching power was never measured when tyson was with the catskills team , it dosent mean that it wasent maesured after tyson left rooney , because how would rooney know if it has being measured since as he hasnt being in contact with tyson since 88 . i think in 89 when tyson was fighting bruno , before the fight, bruno, foremans, rudduck and tysons punch power was measured , bruno came first then foreman, ruddock and tyson came last , thats what i heard i dont know if its true or whether tysons punch power was ever measured?.

Actually you mean steve loitt and what he meant was that tysons punching power was never measured when tyson was with the catskills team , it dosent mean that it wasent maesured after tyson left rooney , because how would rooney know if it has being measured since as he hasnt being in contact with tyson since 88 . i think in 89 when tyson was fighting bruno , before the fight, bruno, foremans, rudduck and tysons punch power was measured , bruno came first then foreman, ruddock and tyson came last , thats what i heard i dont know if its true or whether tysons punch power was ever measured?.


You need to get ahold of that story of all these guys letting their punching power get tested. Look it up.

louis is too slow for ali and holmes, whom both would run circles around louis given the fact that louis always had trouble with movers(walcott, conn, nova, pastor, charles, etc.) foreman, liston, and tyson would overwhelm louis, cause of louis' substandard chin. plus foreman, liston and tyson all have very good if not great chins, and have stood up to big punchers before. they all would be too much for louis. so that's 5 people i named, ali, liston, foreman, tyson, and holmes, so that would leave louis at number 6.

There are ways to cut the ring off, ya know. Also, you're useing Walcott and Charles as examples....bad move. That's the same as me saying Ali couldn't handle boxers because Holmes and Berbick kicked his ass. Or, that he couldn't handle pressure fighters because of Spinks in I.

Never use a past his prime example to show a fighter's weaknesses...bad move. :mad:

foreman and liston couldnt deal with louis's power. you underestimate prime louis's handspeed.

my list

1. Joe Louis Barrow
2. Cassius Clay
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Jack Johnson
5. Joe Frazier
6. George Foreman
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Larry Holmes
9. Lennox Lewis
10.Sonny Liston

Here's my list:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Dempsey
4. Foreman
5. Johnson
6. Marciano
7. Holmes
8. Holyfield
9. Liston
10. Frazier

1 Tyson
2 Johnson
3 Ali
4 Marciano
5 Louis
6 Dempsey
7 Fraizer
8 Foreman
9 Holyfield
10 Holmes

I couldn't put Lennox Lewis in my top ten or top 15 for that matter. he beat a washed up Tyson (not his fault) and a washed up Holyfield but got Ko's by Oliver McCall and Hasim Rachman. You have to have a chin to make in the top ten.
Tiger Flowers

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Rocky Marciano
5.Jack Johnson
6.George Foreman
7.Larry Holmes
8.Joe Frazier
9.Sonny Liston
10.Lennox Lewis

Here's my top ten list, based not on accomplishments, but who would win the most fights against other all time greats.

1.) Ali
2.) George Foreman
3.) Mike Tyson / Lennox Lewis
4.) Joe Louis
5.) Larry Holmes
6.) Sonny Liston
7.) Joe Frazier
8.) Evander Holyfield
9.) Dempsey
10.) Marciano

***ReVISED 5/26/2007-Tyson has proven himself to be unworthy and is now replaced by James J. Braddock.

James J. Braddock is #9

***ReVISED 5/26/2007-Tyson has proven himself to be unworthy and is now replaced by James J. Braddock.

James J. Braddock is #9

Like u in posting,only u cant be replaced,even if so your replacement that could equal u would have to be a retard. There could be no1 else that could equal u besides that.

In other words Tyson is out of the top ten for proving to be the biggest moron in boxing history.

In other words Tyson is out of the top ten for proving to be the biggest moron in boxing history.

Oh no,hes out of your top 10,that means we need to rewrite the history book then huh. Cause I know its a huge deal and all.Cause your oh so important.

Yo Teddy Atlas didnt even have George Foreman in his top 10


1 ali
2 louis
3 marciano
4 foreman
5 johnson
6 frazier
7 dempsey
8 holyfield
9 tyson
10 liston
11 lewis

Yo Teddy Atlas didnt even have George Foreman in his top 10


1 ali
2 louis
3 marciano
4 foreman
5 johnson
6 frazier
7 dempsey
8 holyfield
9 tyson
10 liston
11 lewis

O i wonder why atlas doesnt have foreman in his top ten, maybe its cause foreman knocked out his champion back when...atlas is one to keep grudges, I just never understood why they have him on everytime they talk tyson, you know he'll go completely off point to talk shit about tyson and how weak he was mentally blah blah blah. Get sum non objective ****s in there, not sumone who has sumthing against a fighter he only coached in the amateurs

Everyone has their list of top ten heavyweights of all time here is mine. feel free to share yours also.


1)Muhammad Ali- It was amazing that a man of his physical size can move with such swiftness and agility. Was undefeated (30-0)when the title was wrongfully stripped from him in '67. Forced to stay out of boxing for three years, he went through ups and downs and 2 defeats to finally get another title shot at the age of 32 in 1974 and shocked the whole world by defeating the invincinble Big George Foreman. Two amazing title reigns and Ali was also the first man to win the Championship 3 times.

2)Joe Louis- The Brown Bomber was a deadly technician in the ring. During his title reign he faced anyone and anything that was put in front of him. Amazing number of title defenses(25!) and length of title reign.

3)George Foreman- In his early career Big George Foreman was a fighter that had the heavyweight division in fear, with an aura of invinciblity comparable to Tysons and Listons big George would have adversaries shaking in thier boots at the mention of his name. That is until he met Ali in '74. Big George was 42-0 when he lost to Ali. After the loss he went into a downward spiral that caused him to retire from boxing and becoming a preacher, didnt box for ten years. In 1988 Foreman came back with a drive to regain the heavyweight title again. And going through ups and downs he finally won back the title at the age of 45 in 1994 by KO against Michael Moorer. Amazingly regaining the title 20 years after losing it to Ali. Foreman is in the record books for the oldest man ever to win the championship at 45 years old, and also for having the 2nd highest knockout percentage in heavyweight history.

4. Rocky Marciano - The Rock was known for his amazing stamina in the ring like the energizer bunny you can keep beating him down but he just kept on coming. Incredible stamina, iron chin, unbeatable will to win, ability to knock you out with both hands, deadly body shots. What more can you ask for in a fighter. His 49-0 record still stands to this day.

5. Larry Holmes- The Easton Assassin was known for his lightning jab that was strong enough to knock you down. Holmes never got respect because unlike Ali he lacked an arch nemesis liek Ali had with Frazier, and he also ruled during a bleak period in heavyweight history. Spent 8 years as heavywieght Champ and went 48-0 before losing to Spinks almost tying Marciano's 49-0 record.

6. Joe Frazier- one word to describe him- relentless . Like Marciano you can throw everything at this guy and he'd still keep on coming. Owner of one of the deadliest left hooks in heavyweight history. The first man to beat Ali. His 3 dramatic fights with Ali made Smokin Joe Frazier a legend.

7. Lennox Lewis- During his title reign the British lion fought and defeated all the top heavyweights of his day including Holyfield and Tyson. Look at the list of all the fighters The British Lion has defeated and you'll see his place in history cannot be denied. Possessed one of the deadliest right hands in heavyweight history.

8.Evander Holyfield - Evander The Real Deal Holyfield is a man with incredible heart. Possesses one of the greatest chins of all time , this man didnt know the meaning of the word -quit. Proved the critics wrong time after time. Saying he wasnt big enough to be a Heavyweight he went on to win the title a record 4 times. His most dramtic win was when he defeated Iron Mike Tyson for the Title in 1996 when everyone wrote Holyfield off as a hasbeen.

9. Mike Tyson- Iron Mike Tyson's place in history is bittersweet to me because I feel had he stayed with trainer Kevin Rooney, Mike Tyson had the POTENTIAL to become the greatest Heavyweight Champ of all time. Everyone knows Tysons story. Tyson had incredible speed, incredible KO power, great finisher, a violent blood lust to destroy his opponent. Many of Tysons fight would not go past the 2nd round. During Tyson's 3 year reign of terror opponents feared Tyson so much that they would forget to fight back. With his black shoes no socks, black trunks, fade haircut and gym towel draped on his shoulders he had an aura of invincibility that the ring had never seen before or since. In 1988 this man was frightening, his 90 second annihilation of Michael Spinks and 4 round destruction of Larry Holmes truly made him the "Baddest man on the planet".

10. Jack Dempsey- the Monnassa Mauler- was a devestating force to be reckoned with back in his day. Knocked out Jess willard in violent fashion knocking Willards teeth out literally to win the Heavyweight Title,,,,and Dempsey was outweighed by Willard by more than 50 lbs!!!. Dempsey style was the prototype to Tyson, Tyson even borrowed Dempseys style of wearing black shoes, black shorts, fade haircut from Dempsey. Going for the knock out Dempsey could knock you out with either hand. Pure assassin.

***special note - Jack Johnson is my #11. The reason I dont have him ranked higher is because he ruled in an old time era when heavyweights would fight middleweights and even welterweights. In fact Johnson himself fought many fights with many weight mismatches. Had Johnson ruled in a "Modernised Era" he would have placed higher on my list. With that being said I believe Johnson was extremely talented and can even defeat some of the men that rank higher in my list.***



***ReVISED 5/26/2007-Tyson has proven himself to be unworthy and is now replaced by James J. Braddock.

James J. Braddock is #9

Dude

Ali was 15 stone. 15 stone blokes can dance around at heavyweight like they were welterweights like there's no tomorrow. Message me your email address and I'll send you an article about Clay/Ali from Ring Magazine that tells the truth about Ali. Media hype. Quick dude, but Roy Jones is quick, but you'd not put him in your top 10 heavyweights, would you.

Ali was overrated by maybe ten or fifteen times.

Also, James Braddock, who? Yes, I've heard and know of him, but in the top ten, and above Tyson? ****ing hell!!

Ian

Hard to come up with a top 10, but in my opinion:

1. Louis and Ali and probably had the most skills of any Heavyweights ever.

2. Jeffries might of been the toughest. Hard to say because that category is really subjective.

2. Lewis was slightly overrated as a champion. Because of recent events, Tyson has been underrated.

3. Holmes will never get the credit he deserves both in and out of the ring. People simply just did not like the guy. Tunney is sometimes overlooked as well.

Here's my top 10 head to head:

1) Ali
2) Louis
3) Liston
4) Johnson
5) Lewis
6) Frazier
7) Jeffries
8) Hollyfield
9) Foreman
10)Holmes.

Joe Louis
Jack Johnson
Muhammad Ali
Jack Dempsey
Mike Tyson
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
George Foreman
Joe Frazier

My list is the true list of all time great heavyweight champs:

1) Muhammad Ali
2) Sonny Liston
3) Joe Louis
4) Jack Johnson
5) Larry Holmes
6) George Foreman
7) Mike Tyson
8) Joe Frazier
9) Jack Dempsey
10) Rocky Marciano

Jack Johnson would not beat all but Louis,Liston and Ali, no frickin way.

Most of us share the same selection of champs. The only thing that varies is the order in which they're placed.

Jack Johnson would not beat all but Louis,Liston and Ali, no frickin way.

Your right, but I think you have to look at how a particular Champion dominated in the era in which he fought. Most of the fighters pre-Jack Dempsey were much smaller than the ones that box today.

My Top Ten

1/Marciano
2/Louis
3/Ali
4/Tyson
5/Dempsey
6/Johnson
7/Holmes
8/Liston
9/Frazier
10/Holyfield

here's mine. i tried not to focus too heavily on accomplishments such as multiple championship reigns, undefeated records and whatnot since most of the time those come down to being at the right place at the right time. instead i chose my top criterion to be in-prime head-to-head aptitude and capability. level of opposition, longevity, skill level, and physical attributes were also considered :)

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Holyfield
5. Marciano
6. Lewis
7. Johnson
8. Frazier
9. Liston
10. Tyson

Gene Tunney would've made #4 but he's a lightheavy who finished as a heavyweight champion in my book.

Jack Johnson would not beat all but Louis,Liston and Ali, no frickin way.

Well, I've changed my list since then.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Sonny Liston
3. George Foreman
4. Mike Tyson
5. Joe Louis
6. Larry Holmes
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Johnson
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Lennox Lewis

:fing02:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Joe Louis
4. Jack Johnson
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Larry Holmes
7. Jim Jeffries (If he had more fights then no doubt he would be higher)
8. George Foreman
9. Gene Tunney (would be alot higher if he had spent more of his career at the weight)
10. Joe Frazier

Honourable mentions: Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, Ezzard Charles, Ken Norton, Sonny Liston, Mike Tyson, Harry Wills and Lennox Lewis.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Joe Louis
4. Jack Johnson
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Larry Holmes
7. Jim Jeffries (If he had more fights then no doubt he would be higher)
8. George Foreman
9. Gene Tunney (would be alot higher if he had spent more of his career at the weight)
10. Joe Frazier

Honourable mentions: Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, Ezzard Charles, Ken Norton, Sonny Liston, Mike Tyson, Harry Wills and Lennox Lewis.


I'm a wee bit confused about your list Boxalot. You have Rocky at two which suggests to me that you're conentrating on greatness and accomplishment rather than resume of projected head to head. However you have Tunney at 9, and his achievments (at this weight) are limited to beating a washed up champ over ten rounds twice.

McGrain, i do my lists on a mixture of ability and acheivements.

As a Heavyweight, Tunney was supremely gifted and i believe had he fought more at heavyweight not many could beat him. Sadly, he only had a few fights at the weight and you have to rank him more as a light-heavy. I can fully understand why you dispute my list though as the rankings of Jeffries and Tunney can both be considered controversial considering their lack of fights, Tunney more so than Jeffries. For what it's worth, i believe Holmes and Tunney would beat Marciano on points, despite the fact i have Rocky placed above them.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Joe Louis
4. Jack Johnson
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Larry Holmes
7. Jim Jeffries (If he had more fights then no doubt he would be higher)
8. George Foreman
9. Gene Tunney (would be alot higher if he had spent more of his career at the weight)
10. Joe Frazier

Honourable mentions: Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, Ezzard Charles, Ken Norton, Sonny Liston, Mike Tyson, Harry Wills and Lennox Lewis.

** These lists are had to defend, but usually the #1 stands out, and that's Louis. Ali is overshadowed by his mouth and controversies, whereas Louis had few controversies. Maybe the first Buddy Baer and Walcott fights, but Louis knocked 'em out like he did to most others. Plus his record has never been seriously approached like Rocky's has been by Holmes and then Valuev.

I would not rank Holmes, Jeffries, Johnson and Tunney as high as you do. Dempsey would be third, but had Tunney stayed down in the rematch I'd make Jack 2nd and Ali 3rd. Foreman 4th, and I'd seriously consider Langford 5th ahead of Rocky even though he wasn't a full sized heavy. He had a full sized punch and has the best record of his era against the best of his era, challenging even when he was past prime and going blind.

Never liked Ali much did you, LRR? :joke:

I'm not going to attempt to rip apart Louis' acheivements as i rank him very highly. He was an absoute great that deserves whatever credit he gets. I personally don't think he was the best but i wouldn't argue with anyone that did - he really was great. Under-rated handspeed and his footwork was just as good as Ali's, if not as flashy it was economical and effective.

Holmes has 20 defences and i like the old fighters alot so i am admittedly slightly biased in their favour, hence their high ranking in my list!

Langford lost countless times to Wills and was blind for alot of his career so it's hard to rank him. Do you give him extra credit for being blind but being defeated or do you not rank him at all? Personally, i give him credit for battling on despite being blind, but he had nearly 50 defeats, most of which were when he was past his best and/or blind. As i'm sure you will know, he fought from Lightweight all the way up to Heavy! He never won a world title though and it's hard to place someone in your top 10 if they never won the belt - it's similar to the Charley Burley situation.

McGrain, i do my lists on a mixture of ability and acheivements.

Fair enough.

Langford lost countless times to Wills and was blind for alot of his career so it's hard to rank him. Do you give him extra credit for being blind but being defeated or do you not rank him at all? Personally, i give him credit for battling on despite being blind, but he had nearly 50 defeats, most of which were when he was past his best and/or blind. As i'm sure you will know, he fought from Lightweight all the way up to Heavy! He never won a world title though and it's hard to place someone in your top 10 if they never won the belt - it's similar to the Charley Burley situation.

** When they fight the best as many times as Sam did it's easy to rank. Keep in mind that Johnson never fought Wills, and Sam was fighting him when Wills was in his prime and Sam past his. Sam had more bouts against HOFers than Ali has bouts, think about it.

BTW, Sam has 3x the number of bouts Burley had, and Burley wasn't the most dangerous fighter of his era that Sam was, knocking out heavy contenders and all. I was a little slow on the uptake regarding his career, but once you delve in you realize that he was probably the ultimate warrior, el ultimo, le grande.

Langford was proclaimed (and rightfully so) heavyweight champion of the world in May of 1909, and was even presented a diamond studded belt courtesy of Lord Lonsdale on that occasion to signify that claim.

Langford was proclaimed (and rightfully so) heavyweight champion of the world in May of 1909, and was even presented a diamond studded belt courtesy of Lord Lonsdale on that occasion to signify that claim.

I believe it was July 1909, but i may be wrong. The belt he won was the coloured Heavyweight belt as Jack Johnson avoided him. I don't think that that counts as a legit World title.

Harry Wills defended the coloured Heavyweight belt 30 or 31 times but this doesn't count as a legit belt, or Joe Louis' record of 25 defences would be shattered.

I believe it was July 1909, but i may be wrong. The belt he won was the coloured Heavyweight belt as Jack Johnson avoided him. I don't think that that counts as a legit World title.

Yeah, you are wrong.

And for the record, I prefer to use the contemporary articles of the time, unlike you who seems to favour some modern, incomplete and quite often, inaccurate source like boxrec.

Yeah, you are wrong.

And for the record, I prefer to use the contemporary articles of the time, unlike you who seems to favour some modern, incomplete and quite often, inaccurate source like boxrec.

I did indeed use boxrec.

However, Langford never won a legit world title. That is a fact.

However, Langford never won a legit world title. That is a fact.

No, that's not fact, that's opinion.

Judging by the proclamation of him being "world heavyweight champion" (not "coloured") by such organizations as the National Sporting Club (then the oldest boxing org in boxing) and early members of the International Boxing Union, obviously some people thought Langford's claim was more legitimate than Johnson's, who could have avoided all the confusion by simply showing up for that scheduled fight in late May of 1909 against Langford instead of pulling the no-show that he did.

To me, if a champion signs to defend against the leading contender like Johnson did with Langford, and then proceeds to not bother showing up (nor giving any advanced reason for not showing), he then forfeits any claim he has to the title. God knows and so do you, that if Johnson had trying pulling that shit in today's age he'd have been stripped of his title just as quick as you could say his name, as well as being branded a "chicken shit".

If you type Sam Langfords name into google it comes up with countless links that will tell you he was the first man to be inducted into the hall of fame without winning a World Title.

It isn't an opinion if someone is a title holder. I thought that Peter was better than Valeuv when Valeuv had a belt, but it didn't make Peter a champion, did it? I see what you are saying, and i agree, Johnson should have been stripped for not fighting Langford, but the fact remains he wasn't and Sam Langford never did win a legit World title.

If the coloured belt was a legit world title then Harry Wills has more title defences than Joe Louis, and the record books say that Joe Louis has the most title defences. The record books will also say that as good as he was, and whether it's right or wrong, Sam Langford never won a world title.

Louis
Ali
Tyson
Johnson
Marciano
Dempsey
Holmes
Liston
Foreman
Frazier

It isn't an opinion if someone is a title holder.

No it isn't, but for someone to speak on the legitimacy of said title would be based entirely on one's own opinion. In the case of Langford it is a FACT that he was considered a world title holder, and that's something you or I cannot dispute because it's already been written in history.

"When Sam Langford, the Boston negro, knocked out Ian Hague, the British hevyweight champion, out in the fourth at the National Sporting Club in London Mondy night, he was promptly hailed as the new world heavyweight champion by the English, who said that Johnson, by crawling out of the Langford match scheduled for that day, had forfeited all right to the title." - May 26th, 1909, Washington Post

"Sam Langford, hailed by the National Sporting Club, as the champion heavyweight of the world." - May 27th, 1909, Washington Post

"Sam Langford has recieved a championship belt from the National Sporting Club after the Club hailed Langford as the champion heavy weight of the world." AP report dated June 2nd, 1909

"National Sporting Club proclaiming Sam Langford heavyweight champion of England and the World." - Nebraska State Journal, July 4th, 1909

Just a few of many sources where it clearly states Langford was considered "heavyweight champion of the world", so unless you can come up with something stating that the National Sporting Club DIDN'T consider Langford as such, then you're claim that he wasn't considered the "world" title holder would be factually incorrect.

Out of curiousity though, at that period in time (mid 1909 or before), what made Johnson's disputed claim the legitimate one to you?

ESPN - Boxing historian Bert Sugar is marginally less effusive; in his book, "Boxing's 100 Greatest Fighters," Sugar ranks Langford No. 16. But, he wrote, "he is the highest non-champion." For all his accomplishments, Langford was never granted a world title shot at any of the weights in which he fought, because he was both a very good fighter, and a black one.

Coxscorner - Sam Langford, known as the “Boston Terror” and "The Boston Tar Baby," is considerd to be the greatest fighter to never win a world boxing championship. The reason is simple. He was the most avoided fighter in the illustrious history of boxing.

And, indeed from this very site: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125546

ESPN - Boxing historian Bert Sugar is marginally less effusive; in his book, "Boxing's 100 Greatest Fighters," Sugar ranks Langford No. 16. But, he wrote, "he is the highest non-champion." For all his accomplishments, Langford was never granted a world title shot at any of the weights in which he fought, because he was both a very good fighter, and a black one.

Coxscorner - Sam Langford, known as the “Boston Terror” and "The Boston Tar Baby," is considerd to be the greatest fighter to never win a world boxing championship. The reason is simple. He was the most avoided fighter in the illustrious history of boxing.

And, indeed from this very site: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125546

LOL.

Yeah, I've read all that before and many a times, thanks, but again, if I want to read about what was happening in 1909, I'm going to be looking for sources that were written in 1909, not one from a modern writer that was written nearly 100 after the fact.

Sugar's a clown anyways, doesn't do much in the way of "digging deep" as far as his own research goes, and who still spouts a bunch of myths (like the one with Pep winning a round by not throwing a punch) that have been proven inaccurate by those who do "dig deep" into boxing's history, like Monte, who either doesn't accept the NSC's claim based on his opinion on legitimacy or was simply unaware of it.

Out of curiousity though, at that period in time (mid 1909 or before), what made Johnson's disputed claim the legitimate one to you?

Still curious about this question, Boxalot.

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Jack Dempsey
3.Joe Louis
4.George Foreman
5.Joe Fraizer
6.Mike Tyson
7.Rocky Marciano
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Evander Holyfield or Jack Johnson i couldent decide

i would move up dempsey and maybe move marciano up one

10.Lennox Lewis : Defeated every man he went in the ring with, which is not something many boxers can say. Greatest ever british boxer extremely smart in the ring and very powerful.


9.Jack Johnson: The first "Real heavyweight" and extremley talented boxer, he would take opponents all the way just to punish them. If he fought in a more modern era he may have been higher in the list, but he fought many middle weights and light heavyweights.

8.Jack Dempsey: Was one of the most Dominant fighters, amazingly powerful and could knock you out with either Hand!!

7.Larry Holmes: Had probably the best left jab ever in the Heavyweight division.Living in the Shadow of Ali, it was very hard for holmes to make as much of an impact but he did this with an 8 year run as heavyweight champ

6.Joe Frazier: The First person to ever beat ali, fought in the "golden era" of boxing and was one of the best! had one of the best left hooks in boxing history. He had a iron chin, and was part of some of the best ever fights.

5.George Foreman: He not only has one hell of a grill, he had one hell of a punch that knocked down frazier 6 times in one round!! He retired and came back to boxing to become the oldest heavyweight champion of all time at the age of 45 which was 20 years after he lost it to Ali

4.Mike Tyson: The Youngest ever Heavy weight Champion, and the 1st to unify 3 major belts and become the undisputed champion. If Tyson had kept Rooney, he would most probably be #1. The most dominant boxer ever in there prime. He had incredible speed and power, a combination of the two that never been seen and probably never will be. He had the greatest ever left hook. His Opponent feared him so much that they would concentrate on not getting hit rather than winning, its a shame he didn’t keep on the right track.. but nether the less he is still 4th.

3.Rocky Marciano: 49-0, the only heavyweight champion in this list never to lost a fight. His power and stamina were incredible the same goes for his chin. And it looks like his record will never be defeated


2.Muhammad Ali: "The Greatest" well almost, easily the quickest heavyweight of all time, and fought in many of the Greatest ever fights. He dominated at a time with many other great boxers, two others who are in the list. Regaining the Title twice he was an awesome athlete

1.Joe Louis: 25 title defences a record that has never been broken! He was technically gifted as well as having a devastating punch that got him the #1 place in ESPNs Greatest Punchers. Lethal with both arms, this man earns his place in my List!