View Full Version : The Magic Man's Top 10 P4P ATG of ALL TIME


TheMagicMan
07-14-2010, 10:09 AM
1. Joe Calzaghe- 46-0, over 20 title defenses. Didnt go down until his mid 30's. wins over legends HOpkinds, Jones, and Eubank. Wins over Kessler, Lacy and Veit all guys who were very very good. Joe was the best.

2. Floyd Mayweather Jr. Whats there to say that hasnt been said? Hes the man. Hard to put him number 2, but I just dont see a way that his style could match up with the southpaw dragon.

3. Vitali Klitschko- I love him, you love him, we all love him. Never been down, never finished a match behind on the score cards. A freak of nature.

4. Wladimir Klitschko- could overtake his bro someday. The more athletic brother, but with an acchilles heal called his chin. Hes learned to hide it and avoid punches to it.

5. Roy Jones Jr. - Freak athlete, afraid of British people was his only downfall. had he fought Benn or Collins or Eubank or beaten a joe calzaghe then he would be higher, but unfortunately he never did.

6. James Lights Out Toney- The beast

7. Lennox Lewis- Contrary to reports, the man didnt have that bad of a chin, watch the first round vs. Briggs. He took the mans best shots. I dont know how much he sparred, but in his 2 ko's he looked more stunned. In round 4 vs. Briggs he has felt the mans shots and stands there smiling at him. Big strong and skilled. No HW before his time would have stood much of a chance.

8. SRL- Had all the skills, was quick, the best of his time for sure, the boxing game has just passed his time up by a little bit.

9. Bad Chad Dawson- A man like Bad would murder an old timer like Marciano with speend and precision. He needs some better competition, but who knows how high or low he has to go to find it.

10. Marvin Hagler- A great great fighter who like SRL has just been a little bit passed by

Honorable mention -Pernell Whitaker, Paul Williams, Shane, JCC, and Erik Morales.

SBleeder
07-14-2010, 11:31 AM
The fact that six of the ten are still active fighters tells me you don't know much about boxing history.

BattlingNelson
07-14-2010, 11:37 AM
Where's Ottke?

TheMagicMan
07-14-2010, 12:10 PM
The fact that six of the ten are still active fighters tells me you don't know much about boxing history.

I know plenty about boxing history, let me ask you this. When you look down the greatest basketball players of all time, how many could play today? Or football players, you think Johnny Unitas, even his numbers, hold up today? This is a factual list, not some fantasy list where 5'9 182 pounders with no technique could beat a Klitschko. This is a real world list. I live in the real world. and operate in it as such. These are the 10 best fighters of all time, who if you put them in a ring against people their weight class, theyd perform the best. Im not taking into account for his time or what not.

DarkTerror88
07-14-2010, 12:35 PM
Because i hate being a troll and try my best to be nice to everyone i respectfully disagree with your list. The only ones you have that are in my top 20 p4p are Hagler and Leonard. I feel that the Klits would be much better if they added better hand a foot speed to their arsenal. Their very good stand up boxers, of the Euro fighters I've had the chance to spar with they fight in a very respectful straight up stance. I also feel that Hagler's Experience in the ring, combine with his "i'm going to kill you and i hate you" attitude i feel that gives him advantageous over middleweights today, southpaw or not. Although Leonard was showman and got "media darling gift" decisions like in Hearns II, i feel that he has the superior offense and generalship that would allow him to defeat Mayweather.

You are entitled to your opinion though. And you provided evidence for why you made choices so that is a thought out list. :)

TheMagicMan
07-14-2010, 01:39 PM
Because i hate being a troll and try my best to be nice to everyone i respectfully disagree with your list. The only ones you have that are in my top 20 p4p are Hagler and Leonard. I feel that the Klits would be much better if they added better hand a foot speed to their arsenal. Their very good stand up boxers, of the Euro fighters I've had the chance to spar with they fight in a very respectful straight up stance. I also feel that Hagler's Experience in the ring, combine with his "i'm going to kill you and i hate you" attitude i feel that gives him advantageous over middleweights today, southpaw or not. Although Leonard was showman and got "media darling gift" decisions like in Hearns II, i feel that he has the superior offense and generalship that would allow him to defeat Mayweather.

You are entitled to your opinion though. And you provided evidence for why you made choices so that is a thought out list. :)


According to emanuel steward Wlad has some of the best foot speed hes seen and as for hand speed... name me one guy Wlad's size with better hand speed, or Vitali...Vitali keeps his left at his freaking knee, if he was slow and had bad hand speed how would he survive?

I dont see how Hagler could fight off a hungry Joe Calzaghe, a fearless warrior like Joe, who could never be stopped, 45 people tried, none made it. Often fighters had their entire careers wrecked by Calzaghe. More myth than man, he took on all comers, threw punches constantly, laughed at his opponents futile attempts to beat him off. I like Hagler and SRL, but you cant debate the fact that SRL ended Haglers career.

Hagler does have a victory over Roy jones though, which is why hes in my top 10 P4P ATG OF ALL TIME list.

Let me guess your list has guys like ali, jack johnson, sonny liston, roberto duran, sugar ray robinson, archie moore, Joe Louis, maybe a joe frazier, a JCC or Camacho etc... If you really went WILD, you might have Tyson or Holyfied, Bhop, maybe even Marciano... Ive seen it a thousand times dude. Youre brainwashed, wake up, any p4p list featuring Ali is automatic trash. Dude struggled all the time with guys wo wouldnt even fight in his weight class today. Jack Johnson? would be Ko 1'ed by either Klitschko. Sonny Liston...ok 1 hitter quitter, fights rigged, fought mostly cruisers. On and on, these guys cant stack up against a man today.

Also how can you have a p4p atg list of All time and NOT have joe calzaghe or Floyd Mayweather? Uhh...theyve never been beat, never even really been in trouble.

Sugarj
07-14-2010, 03:07 PM
What? Hagler does not have a win over Roy Jones Jnr!!!! Not the guy in your ATG list!

There was a rumour that was Roy's dad.

Another Boxrec warrior!!!!

considerthis
07-14-2010, 03:12 PM
According to emanuel steward Wlad has some of the best foot speed hes seen and as for hand speed... name me one guy Wlad's size with better hand speed, or Vitali...Vitali keeps his left at his freaking knee, if he was slow and had bad hand speed how would he survive?

I dont see how Hagler could fight off a hungry Joe Calzaghe, a fearless warrior like Joe, who could never be stopped, 45 people tried, none made it. Often fighters had their entire careers wrecked by Calzaghe. More myth than man, he took on all comers, threw punches constantly, laughed at his opponents futile attempts to beat him off. I like Hagler and SRL, but you cant debate the fact that SRL ended Haglers career.

Hagler does have a victory over Roy jones though, which is why hes in my top 10 P4P ATG OF ALL TIME list.

Let me guess your list has guys like ali, jack johnson, sonny liston, roberto duran, sugar ray robinson, archie moore, Joe Louis, maybe a joe frazier, a JCC or Camacho etc... If you really went WILD, you might have Tyson or Holyfied, Bhop, maybe even Marciano... Ive seen it a thousand times dude. Youre brainwashed, wake up, any p4p list featuring Ali is automatic trash. Dude struggled all the time with guys wo wouldnt even fight in his weight class today. Jack Johnson? would be Ko 1'ed by either Klitschko. Sonny Liston...ok 1 hitter quitter, fights rigged, fought mostly cruisers. On and on, these guys cant stack up against a man today.

Also how can you have a p4p atg list of All time and NOT have joe calzaghe or Floyd Mayweather? Uhh...theyve never been beat, never even really been in trouble.

excellent wording:wank:

SBleeder
07-14-2010, 03:20 PM
Hagler does have a victory over Roy jones though, which is why hes in my top 10 P4P ATG OF ALL TIME list.


That's impressive considering Roy Jones Jr. debuted two years after Hagler retired.

GameGod
07-14-2010, 03:24 PM
I'm tempted to guess that this list is a list of modern fighters instead of all-time. Yet Hagler, Leonard and Lewis throw that off a bit. The entirety of your Top 6 could be moved down 40-50 places and still be valid. If you really rate Wladimir Klitschko above Sugar Ray Robinson pound-for-pound I have nothing to say to you. It's not often that there is such a thing as a wrong P4P list, but this is certainly just that.

Cassius Liston
07-14-2010, 03:26 PM
I hope i never have to read another word you type on this website.......Calzaghe is a ****ing joke......please refrain from mentioning his name on a boxing website....you are such an idiot...i love how all your fighters are practically still active ...lol he's better than floyd huh...you're obviously Welsh..people that fanboy fighters because of where they are from are not real fans in my eyes...they're bandwagon retards...

Boy T

considerthis
07-14-2010, 04:27 PM
I hope i never have to read another word you type on this website.......Calzaghe is a ****ing joke......please refrain from mentioning his name on a boxing website....you are such an idiot...i love how all your fighters are practically still active ...lol he's better than floyd huh...you're obviously Welsh..people that fanboy fighters because of where they are from are not real fans in my eyes...they're bandwagon retards...

Boy T

while i'm not a calzlaghe fan myself...he will be in the hall of fame. he may slap like a ***** but he's far from a joke.

Toney616
07-14-2010, 04:38 PM
That's impressive considering Roy Jones Jr. debuted two years after Hagler retired.
Roy has a time machine
http://www.manandhisbaby.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/back-to-the-future.jpeg

Toney616
07-14-2010, 04:39 PM
5. Roy Jones Jr. - Freak athlete, afraid of British people was his only downfall. had he fought Benn or Collins or Eubank or beaten a joe calzaghe then he would be higher, but unfortunately he never did.

The Benn fight fell through because of King

The Collins fight fell through because Jones decided to unify the lhw belts instead i.e he fought Reggie Johnson instead of Collins. HBO were not interested in a Collins-Jones fight either

Eubank wasnt interested in a Jones fight, he even says so in his autobiography

Calzaghe was a relative unknown (in America) fighting in another division


1. Joe Calzaghe- 46-0, over 20 title defenses. Didnt go down until his mid 30's. wins over legends Hopkins, Jones, and Eubank. Wins over Kessler, Lacy and Veit all guys who were very very good. Joe was the best.
Calzaghe resume isnt that good, you cannot be serious about having him at no 1?

Cassius Liston
07-14-2010, 04:59 PM
while i'm not a calzlaghe fan myself...he will be in the hall of fame. he may slap like a ***** but he's far from a joke.

i know he's not a joke...but he's no where near what people think he is...he shouldn't be uttered in the same sentence as Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather in terms of ability ..let alone p4p rankings

r.burgundy
07-14-2010, 05:48 PM
According to emanuel steward Wlad has some of the best foot speed hes seen and as for hand speed... name me one guy Wlad's size with better hand speed, or Vitali...Vitali keeps his left at his freaking knee, if he was slow and had bad hand speed how would he survive?

I dont see how Hagler could fight off a hungry Joe Calzaghe, a fearless warrior like Joe, who could never be stopped, 45 people tried, none made it. Often fighters had their entire careers wrecked by Calzaghe. More myth than man, he took on all comers, threw punches constantly, laughed at his opponents futile attempts to beat him off. I like Hagler and SRL, but you cant debate the fact that SRL ended Haglers career.

Hagler does have a victory over Roy jones though, which is why hes in my top 10 P4P ATG OF ALL TIME list.

Let me guess your list has guys like ali, jack johnson, sonny liston, roberto duran, sugar ray robinson, archie moore, Joe Louis, maybe a joe frazier, a JCC or Camacho etc... If you really went WILD, you might have Tyson or Holyfied, Bhop, maybe even Marciano... Ive seen it a thousand times dude. Youre brainwashed, wake up, any p4p list featuring Ali is automatic trash. Dude struggled all the time with guys wo wouldnt even fight in his weight class today. Jack Johnson? would be Ko 1'ed by either Klitschko. Sonny Liston...ok 1 hitter quitter, fights rigged, fought mostly cruisers. On and on, these guys cant stack up against a man today.

Also how can you have a p4p atg list of All time and NOT have joe calzaghe or Floyd Mayweather? Uhh...theyve never been beat, never even really been in trouble.

:bigeyes::wtf1:
on that note

Joeyzagz
07-14-2010, 06:15 PM
1. Joe Calzaghe- 46-0, over 20 title defenses. Didnt go down until his mid 30's. wins over legends HOpkinds, Jones, and Eubank. Wins over Kessler, Lacy and Veit all guys who were very very good. Joe was the best.

2. Floyd Mayweather Jr. Whats there to say that hasnt been said? Hes the man. Hard to put him number 2, but I just dont see a way that his style could match up with the southpaw dragon.

3. Vitali Klitschko- I love him, you love him, we all love him. Never been down, never finished a match behind on the score cards. A freak of nature.

4. Wladimir Klitschko- could overtake his bro someday. The more athletic brother, but with an acchilles heal called his chin. Hes learned to hide it and avoid punches to it.

5. Roy Jones Jr. - Freak athlete, afraid of British people was his only downfall. had he fought Benn or Collins or Eubank or beaten a joe calzaghe then he would be higher, but unfortunately he never did.

6. James Lights Out Toney- The beast

7. Lennox Lewis- Contrary to reports, the man didnt have that bad of a chin, watch the first round vs. Briggs. He took the mans best shots. I dont know how much he sparred, but in his 2 ko's he looked more stunned. In round 4 vs. Briggs he has felt the mans shots and stands there smiling at him. Big strong and skilled. No HW before his time would have stood much of a chance.

8. SRL- Had all the skills, was quick, the best of his time for sure, the boxing game has just passed his time up by a little bit.

9. Bad Chad Dawson- A man like Bad would murder an old timer like Marciano with speend and precision. He needs some better competition, but who knows how high or low he has to go to find it.

10. Marvin Hagler- A great great fighter who like SRL has just been a little bit passed by

Honorable mention -Pernell Whitaker, Paul Williams, Shane, JCC, and Erik Morales.

I like your number 1 pick :cop:

But ranking Vitali over Lennox is easily the most nuthuggerish thing you can do on this forum. Vitali was at the top physical prime of his career when he failed to put away Lennox.

Do you understand? His BEST was not good enough to beat another man's worst! Pathetic.

http://i50.tinypic.com/15g4742.gif
http://i47.tinypic.com/295e6xj.gif

TheMagicMan
07-14-2010, 06:19 PM
Hagler does have a win over Roy Jones...not sure wtf you guys are talking about. (pay attention to what I call the RJJ who lost to Cal and who Hagler has a win over pls). Also my list is perfect. and anyone who said Im from Wales? im from the home of Buster Douglas you dumb bastard. Columbus, Ohio. I just know the best when I see it. The best is Calzaghe. I know it, you know it, 45 people who felt his wrath know it.

DR.ORGYY
07-14-2010, 06:25 PM
No pac????????? Ahahahahahhahaha!!!!!!!!

Joeyzagz
07-14-2010, 06:43 PM
I know plenty about boxing history, let me ask you this. When you look down the greatest basketball players of all time, how many could play today? Or football players, you think Johnny Unitas, even his numbers, hold up today? This is a factual list, not some fantasy list where 5'9 182 pounders with no technique could beat a Klitschko. This is a real world list. I live in the real world. and operate in it as such. These are the 10 best fighters of all time, who if you put them in a ring against people their weight class, theyd perform the best. Im not taking into account for his time or what not.

This is not a real world list...

Vitali couldnt handle an old version of Lennox, let alone a prime one. If this list were truly based on reality and actual ring events Lennox > Vitali.

I understand the logic of rating Joe over Roy because Joe beat Roy, and they were only 3 years apart in age.

But Vitali failed to beat Lennox with a 6 year age advantage! WTF are you smoking to rank that confirmed steroid user over the guy who beat him?

TheMagicMan
07-14-2010, 08:21 PM
This is not a real world list...

Vitali couldnt handle an old version of Lennox, let alone a prime one. If this list were truly based on reality and actual ring events Lennox > Vitali.

I understand the logic of rating Joe over Roy because Joe beat Roy, and they were only 3 years apart in age.

But Vitali failed to beat Lennox with a 6 year age advantage! WTF are you smoking to rank that confirmed steroid user over the guy who beat him?

Here is why I rate Vit higher. He hasnt been KO'ed unlike Lennox and that fight wasnt Vitali's height. Vit is such a hard worker, such a brilliant guy who follows scripts perfectly. Fighting Lewis then was moving up in competition too fast. His fights before Lewis were Larry Donald, Vaugh Bean and Ross Purrity, he then took the Lewis fight on 12 days notice. He was fighting away from Europe for the first time in a long long time and I really think nothing was in his favor. Fighters do train harder for a HW championship fight and generally know who theyre fighting more than 2 weeks in advance.

Also everyone knows Vitali mostly trains via sparring. He was planning on fighting a low left handed fighter, who weighed 25 lbs less than Lewis at the time and was 3 inches shorter and fought completely differently, Cedric Boswell. Lewis was planning on fighting a guy Klitschko's size. Klitschko deserved a rematch, Lewis ducked it, to me Vitali got the defeat, but proved to be the better man.

GameGod
07-14-2010, 08:33 PM
Hagler does have a win over Roy Jones...not sure wtf you guys are talking about. (pay attention to what I call the RJJ who lost to Cal and who Hagler has a win over pls). Also my list is perfect. and anyone who said Im from Wales? im from the home of Buster Douglas you dumb bastard. Columbus, Ohio. I just know the best when I see it. The best is Calzaghe. I know it, you know it, 45 people who felt his wrath know it.

OK. I think this can be taken as confirmation that you know absolutely nothing about Boxing history. Let's break this down.

Hagler does have a win over Roy Jones...not sure wtf you guys are talking about. (pay attention to what I call the RJJ who lost to Cal and who Hagler has a win over pls).

WRONG. Marvin Hagler does not have a win over Roy Jones Jr. (the man who is 5th on your last). That's a lie, a pure fabrication. This is confirmation that you are mouthing off and that you don't know what boxing history is.

Also my list is perfect. and anyone who said Im from Wales? im from the home of Buster Douglas you dumb bastard. Columbus, Ohio. I just know the best when I see it. The best is Calzaghe. I know it, you know it, 45 people who felt his wrath know it.

Firstly, there is no such thing as a "consensus" perfect list for Boxing's P4P Top 10 of All-Time. There is, however, a consensus for some names that absolutely require to be on such a list: Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, the list goes on. Generally speaking, you're only considering fighters of the last 15 years - try to understand that boxing has a 150 year history.

Ziggy Stardust
07-14-2010, 08:51 PM
Generally speaking, you're only considering fighters of the last 15 years - try to understand that boxing has a 150 year history.

That's because in his warped world-view no one knew how to fight before ten years ago and human beings have evolved into supermen compared to fifteen years ago :puke:

Poet

TheMagicMan
07-14-2010, 08:56 PM
OK. I think this can be taken as confirmation that you know absolutely nothing about Boxing history. Let's break this down.



WRONG. Marvin Hagler does not have a win over Roy Jones Jr. (the man who is 5th on your last). That's a lie, a pure fabrication. This is confirmation that you are mouthing off and that you don't know what boxing history is.



Firstly, there is no such thing as a "consensus" perfect list for Boxing's P4P Top 10 of All-Time. There is, however, a consensus for some names that absolutely require to be on such a list: Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, the list goes on. Generally speaking, you're only considering fighters of the last 15 years - try to understand that boxing has a 150 year history.

Cite where I said that he beat Roy Jones Jr. The 5th on the list? I said he has a win over Roy jones...which he does. Thats a truth, youre a liar and purely lying in the history section and should be banned.

Also my list is perfect, and Alis a joke, youre a joke, Ali would be murdered right now by today heavies.

Joeyzagz
07-14-2010, 11:51 PM
Vit is such a hard worker, such a brilliant guy who follows scripts perfectly. Fighting Lewis then was moving up in competition too fast. His fights before Lewis were Larry Donald, Vaugh Bean and Ross Purrity, he then took the Lewis fight on 12 days notice.

Lewis was scheduled to fight a guy 5 inches shorter than Vitali and had to TRULY switch on 12 days notice. Meanwhile Vitali had been gearing up for a championship bout with Lennox for the past 2 years. He got his wish, and failed.

Here is why I rate Vit higher. He hasnt been KO'ed unlike Lennox and that fight wasnt Vitali's height.

Wladimir has been KOd 3 times and you have him ranked higher as well. Your list is based on favoritism, not reality. In reality Lennox fought better competition than both brothers and actually defeated everyone he ever faced.

But back to Vitali...If you look throughout history the young ATG has ALWAYS defeated the old ATG.


Johnson beat Jeffries
Tunney beat Dempsey
Camacho beat SRL
Marciano beat Joe Louis
Ali beat Liston
Holmes beat Ali
Tyson beat Holmes
DLH beat JCC


History shows us that the younger guy, regardless if hes better or not, should have the advantage in the superfight.

Ali/Foreman is the exception to this rule which is why Ali is held in such high regard. Vit had every advantage in his favor: Youth, Activity, Power, Hunger and still came up short.

Stone Roses!
07-15-2010, 12:19 AM
Lewis was scheduled to fight a guy 5 inches shorter than Vitali and had to TRULY switch on 12 days notice. Meanwhile Vitali had been gearing up for a championship bout with Lennox for the past 2 years. He got his wish, and failed.



Wladimir has been KOd 3 times and you have him ranked higher as well. Your list is based on favoritism, not reality. In reality Lennox fought better competition than both brothers and actually defeated everyone he ever faced.

But back to Vitali...If you look throughout history the young ATG has ALWAYS defeated the old ATG.


Johnson beat Jeffries
Tunney beat Dempsey
Camacho beat SRL
Marciano beat Joe Louis
Ali beat Liston
Holmes beat Ali
Tyson beat Holmes
DLH beat JCC


History shows us that the younger guy, regardless if hes better or not, should have the advantage in the superfight.

Ali/Foreman is the exception to this rule which is why Ali is held in such high regard. Vit had every advantage in his favor: Youth, Activity, Power, Hunger and still came up short.
Great post mate. Green K

GameGod
07-15-2010, 07:30 AM
Cite where I said that he beat Roy Jones Jr. The 5th on the list? I said he has a win over Roy jones...which he does. Thats a truth, youre a liar and purely lying in the history section and should be banned.

While I admit that you didn't say that he had a win over Roy Jones Jr., you stated that your reasoning for putting Hagler so high up in your list is that he defeated Roy Jones. Here's the quote:

Hagler does have a victory over Roy jones though, which is why hes in my top 10 P4P ATG OF ALL TIME list.

Automatically, this would make people assume you're talking about Roy Jones Jr. Without a doubt, you were hoping that no-one would spot your mistake and simply accept that Hagler did beat Roy Jones, without asking which. Either that or, trawling through Hagler's record to get some idea of what he had done to deserve his (undeniably great) position in history, you found "Roy Jones" and decided to quote that "Hagler has a victory over Roy jones". Either way, if you say something like the above quote, it is only fair for people to assume that you are talking about Roy Jones Jr., because, as you would know if you knew anything about boxing or its history, compared to the greats on Marvin Hagler's resume, "Roy Jones" makes no difference at all. Let me pull up a quick list:


Sugar Ray Seales - Record of 21-0-0
Johnny Baldwin - Record of 29-0-0
Mike Colbert - Record of 23-0-0
John Mugabi - Record of 25-0-0
Fulgencio Obelmejias - Record of 30-0-0
Vito Antuofermo - The WBC & WBA World Champion (x2)
Alan Minter - The WBC & WBA World Champion
Wilford Scypion - The IBF World Champion
Roberto Duran - #1 Lightweight of All-Time
Thomas Hearns - #2 Junior Middleweight of All-Time


To be frank, any way you look at it, Roy Jones (not Roy Jones Jr., mind) is not one of Hagler's biggest fights, but a trick used by you to try and defend your selections. Come now, admit it. You know nothing about boxing history. If you dare to defend your statement that Hagler's place in the P4P Top 10 is due to a win over Roy Jones, I am more than ready. Of Hagler's 63 opponents, Roy Jones would probably be around #55 in ability. He was absolutely nothing special - in fact, he was so third-rate that it wasn't even a North American title fight.

Also my list is perfect, and Alis a joke, youre a joke, Ali would be murdered right now by today heavies.

You're going in to a much deeper point there. Forget about Ali - perhaps he is overestimated, I don't know. But are you seriously telling me that Mayweather would beat Sugar Ray Robinson? Or even Thomas Hearns, for that matter?

In any case, a P4P ATG list is not defined by who beats who, but by greatness. Therefore, if you do believe that the fighters 40 years ago would be at a severe nutritional or training disadvantage for whatever reason, you have to make mental compensations for that. Ask yourself, what would happen if these fighters had been born today? Lists are based on achievements, not raw abilities. The formula for ranking fighters is their level of dominance multiplied by their quality of opposition - who would actually win makes no difference.

Toney616
07-15-2010, 08:01 AM
I understand the logic of rating Joe over Roy because Joe beat Roy, and they were only 3 years apart in age.

It doesnt work like that, a persons physical prime 24-35 (rough estimate), is not the same as a fighters prime, due to the various rates rate of attrition each fighter deals with. It varies depending on:

Number of hard fights
Amount of sparring
The fighters style

Jones was past prime by the Harmon fight and practically shot when he stepped into the ring with Calzaghe. Calzaghe even acknowledges this in his autobiography. Joe simply didn't have the same wear and tear as Jones, i.e he was closer to his fighters prime than Jones, who was a shot fighter at that time. In other words Joes win over Jones is meaningless

BennyST
07-15-2010, 08:17 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with your list.

:fing02:

Excellent choices.

BennyST
07-15-2010, 08:26 AM
Lewis was scheduled to fight a guy 5 inches shorter than Vitali and had to TRULY switch on 12 days notice. Meanwhile Vitali had been gearing up for a championship bout with Lennox for the past 2 years. He got his wish, and failed.



Wladimir has been KOd 3 times and you have him ranked higher as well. Your list is based on favoritism, not reality. In reality Lennox fought better competition than both brothers and actually defeated everyone he ever faced.

But back to Vitali...If you look throughout history the young ATG has ALWAYS defeated the old ATG.


Johnson beat Jeffries
Tunney beat Dempsey
Camacho beat SRL
Marciano beat Joe Louis
Ali beat Liston
Holmes beat Ali
Tyson beat Holmes
DLH beat JCC


History shows us that the younger guy, regardless if hes better or not, should have the advantage in the superfight.

Ali/Foreman is the exception to this rule which is why Ali is held in such high regard. Vit had every advantage in his favor: Youth, Activity, Power, Hunger and still came up short.

As is Duran/Leonard. It is, nonetheless, very rare for the older ATG to win. Hence why those fights are so great. Duran, much smaller and older one of the great victories in boxing history. Ali, considered near the end, was though to have had little chance against Foreman and yet knocked him out. You could say the same for the fat, old, out of shape Lewis that looked like he came in from a holiday to fight Vitali (if you want to call Vit an ATG HW or even a top ten P4P ATG as in the above list) and still stopped him in a great war.

BennyST
07-15-2010, 08:34 AM
Here is why I rate Vit higher. He hasnt been KO'ed unlike Lennox and that fight wasnt Vitali's height. Vit is such a hard worker, such a brilliant guy who follows scripts perfectly.

Yes, he has. Lewis stopped him. He busted up his face so bad he could not continue. In boxing that is called a TKO and is the same as a knock out. You get punched and fall over and cannot continue, that is a knock out. You get hurt and the ref deems you unable to continue, that is a knock out, you get your face so badly mangled you cannot continue that is a knock out.

Obviously we can talk over the semantics of the words 'knock out' but in all reality when you get stopped by punches, even though there are various ways of being stopped, it is still just that: A stoppage loss.

If you want to call only that in which someone doesn't get up by ten a knock out, then very few people in boxing ever get knocked out.

cameronpaul
07-15-2010, 08:57 AM
how about a slightly better p4p list

this is a list of skills and ability, and who had the most:

1.sugar ray robinson - easily the greatest of them all, no more needs to be said
2.mike tyson - in my opinion best heavy weight of all time, not saying he wouldnt of lost a few fights but i believe he would beat the most heavy weights in the fastest time if 100 of the best faught eachother.
3.roberto duran -in many peoples eyes the greatest ever lightweight, also any lightweight that can stand toe to toe with hagler and call him a ***** is a hard, hard man.
4.james toney - never have i seen a fighter make other fighters look so bad. how many guys can come up from middle, then make hollyfield look bad and ko him in 9 rounds.
5.roy jones - mr untouchable,
6.manny
7.floyd
8.marvelous marvin hagler - watch hagler vs john mugabe
9.george foreman - arguably the scariest man to enter a boxing ring - tyson was scared to fight him when he was nearly 50 and tyson was still young.
10.edwin valero - just liked to see the man fight

i dont know much about boxing, but i know what i like to see, and these are the guys who bring the most excitment for me.

side note - i dunno how so many so called boxing fans call ali the greatest, if theres one thing i know about boxing, its that he wernt even close to being the greatest. his lucky to be in top 20 of any p4p list. all ali was a tough tough cookie.

Toney616
07-15-2010, 09:17 AM
how about a slightly better p4p list
this is a list of skills and ability, and who had the most:
This is the best criteria to use, imo

1.sugar ray robinson - easily the greatest of them all, no more needs to be said
2.mike tyson - in my opinion best heavy weight of all time, not saying he wouldnt of lost a few fights but i believe he would beat the most heavy weights in the fastest time if 100 of the best faught eachother.
3.roberto duran -in many peoples eyes the greatest ever lightweight, also any lightweight that can stand toe to toe with hagler and call him a ***** is a hard, hard man.
4.james toney - never have i seen a fighter make other fighters look so bad. how many guys can come up from middle, then make hollyfield look bad and ko him in 9 rounds.
5.roy jones - mr untouchable,
6.manny
7.floyd
8.marvelous marvin hagler - watch hagler vs john mugabe
9.george foreman - arguably the scariest man to enter a boxing ring - tyson was scared to fight him when he was nearly 50 and tyson was still young.
10.edwin valero - just liked to see the man fight

Good list

TheMagicMan
07-15-2010, 09:51 AM
how about a slightly better p4p list

this is a list of skills and ability, and who had the most:

1.sugar ray robinson - easily the greatest of them all, no more needs to be said
2.mike tyson - in my opinion best heavy weight of all time, not saying he wouldnt of lost a few fights but i believe he would beat the most heavy weights in the fastest time if 100 of the best faught eachother.
3.roberto duran -in many peoples eyes the greatest ever lightweight, also any lightweight that can stand toe to toe with hagler and call him a ***** is a hard, hard man.
4.james toney - never have i seen a fighter make other fighters look so bad. how many guys can come up from middle, then make hollyfield look bad and ko him in 9 rounds.
5.roy jones - mr untouchable,
6.manny
7.floyd
8.marvelous marvin hagler - watch hagler vs john mugabe
9.george foreman - arguably the scariest man to enter a boxing ring - tyson was scared to fight him when he was nearly 50 and tyson was still young.
10.edwin valero - just liked to see the man fight

i dont know much about boxing, but i know what i like to see, and these are the guys who bring the most excitment for me.

side note - i dunno how so many so called boxing fans call ali the greatest, if theres one thing i know about boxing, its that he wernt even close to being the greatest. his lucky to be in top 20 of any p4p list. all ali was a tough tough cookie.

I like your style, Id replace SRR with Joe Calzaghe though. SRR got like 200 wins fighting maintenance men and janitors. One of his fights was against a 63 year old, semi retarded guy who had never boxed before, he just walked in the ring. The dude literally didnt even have gloves on, SRR just went over and hit him, and knocked him out and it counted as win. Valero is an interesting choice as well, one of those enigma guys who no one really knows how good he is.

As for the person saying Hagler has a win over Roy Jones...its called a joke? I tell a lot of them, try to follow along. He does have a win over Roy Jones though, thats just a fact, its not arguable. I know more about RJJ's rap career than you know about boxing in total. Like I couldnt care less who jack johnson fought or if he has a win over Lucky larue or anything like that. That stuff aint boxing.

And as for the younger guy always beating the older guy, come on thats just stupid. First of all, everyone knows that Fraziers sole goal in his career was to beat Ali, he did, and he never was the same fighter again, won 5 of his last 10 fights. He got complacent. Also Lewis was the HW champion, somethign that 90% of the old guys in your list were not. They were old washed up bums wheeled out there to add legitimacy to a younger fighter, not to really be a challenge.

If youre going to fight a HW championship fight, you will prep differently, VItali is smarter than Lewis, he prepares better and he trains harder. Also Vitali wasnt stopped, Vitali got up from his corner and wanted to fight so bad, look at Lewis's eyes, he was terrified. He fled the sport out of fear of Vitali Klitshcko. Did you see the punch that opened the cut? uhh that wasnt a good hit, that was a fluke graze that pulled the skin. Vitali deserved a one round warning at least before the fight was stopped, you know, something that tons of guys in their careers have received and whose careers would be a lot different without. Then Lewis fled the sport, retired, hid out in a bomb shelter for a few years scared. I heard he offered his wife to Vitali just so Vitali would stop calling him out.

SBleeder
07-15-2010, 10:28 AM
how about a slightly better p4p list

this is a list of skills and ability, and who had the most:

1.sugar ray robinson - easily the greatest of them all, no more needs to be said
2.mike tyson - in my opinion best heavy weight of all time, not saying he wouldnt of lost a few fights but i believe he would beat the most heavy weights in the fastest time if 100 of the best faught eachother.
3.roberto duran -in many peoples eyes the greatest ever lightweight, also any lightweight that can stand toe to toe with hagler and call him a ***** is a hard, hard man.
4.james toney - never have i seen a fighter make other fighters look so bad. how many guys can come up from middle, then make hollyfield look bad and ko him in 9 rounds.
5.roy jones - mr untouchable,
6.manny
7.floyd
8.marvelous marvin hagler - watch hagler vs john mugabe
9.george foreman - arguably the scariest man to enter a boxing ring - tyson was scared to fight him when he was nearly 50 and tyson was still young.
10.edwin valero - just liked to see the man fight

i dont know much about boxing, but i know what i like to see, and these are the guys who bring the most excitment for me.

side note - i dunno how so many so called boxing fans call ali the greatest, if theres one thing i know about boxing, its that he wernt even close to being the greatest. his lucky to be in top 20 of any p4p list. all ali was a tough tough cookie.

Ali, well past his prime, beat the piss out of a prime Foreman... and yet you have Foreman on your list.

Tyson? You even said that Tyson was scared to fight Foreman. How could the greatest heavyweight be afraid of an old man? Ali ducked no one and beat the best. Tyson beat up tomato cans.

I'm not even going to start with Mayweather or Pacquiao.

SBleeder
07-15-2010, 10:29 AM
As for the person saying Hagler has a win over Roy Jones...its called a joke? I tell a lot of them, try to follow along. He does have a win over Roy Jones though, thats just a fact, its not arguable.

WTH are you talking about?

TheMagicMan
07-15-2010, 11:12 AM
Ali, well past his prime, beat the piss out of a prime Foreman... and yet you have Foreman on your list.

Tyson? You even said that Tyson was scared to fight Foreman. How could the greatest heavyweight be afraid of an old man? Ali ducked no one and beat the best. Tyson beat up tomato cans.

I'm not even going to start with Mayweather or Pacquiao.

Uhh Ali beat the "piss out of Foreman" really? Cause I watched that fight, looked to me like Foreman was beating up Ali quite a bit in the fight. Ali was allowed to do his usually gay **** of clinching, pushing down on the back of the head of his opponent, headbutting, laying on the ropes oh and fixed judges...

Did you know that one of the judges in Ali Foreman was muslim and had Foreman winnin 0 rounds? Shocking huh? Did you know Foreman clearly got up in the 8th, but was still counted out? Shocking huh?

Foreman knew, his trainers knew, there was one way he'd get a fair shake and that was by KO'ing Ali, that was it. The ref was apart of it, how many times should Ali at least have been warned about pulling down on Foremans head and neck, come on, thats bull**** and you know it. The fight was rigged, oh and Ali ducked a rematch, he ducked a rematch with Young. He also waited until guys were coming off of losses in that year to fight them. Oh and the judging in Alis fights was a joke, I mean please tell me how Ali Norton 1 is a split decision? How someone thought Ali won?

You shouldnt be on a p4p list if youre as big of a joke as Ali

GameGod
07-15-2010, 12:34 PM
As for the person saying Hagler has a win over Roy Jones...its called a joke? I tell a lot of them, try to follow along. He does have a win over Roy Jones though, thats just a fact, its not arguable.

Funny, that. Your post didn't seem to be very funny. No, you were presenting Hagler defeating Roy Jones as fact. Whether you conveniently "forgot", genuinely forgot, or simply did not know that it was Roy Jones Jr., instead of just Roy Jones, I think you need to make it a little clearer when you present a joke. I don't think anybody thought that was a joke (after all, if Hagler had beaten Jones Jr., that would be his most impressive victory).

I know more about RJJ's rap career than you know about boxing in total. Like I couldnt care less who jack johnson fought or if he has a win over Lucky larue or anything like that. That stuff aint boxing.

There you go again, mouthing off and making statements about your boxing knowledge without any evidence. Well, let me ask you this: do you think you know more about boxing than all of the people who have posted in this thread put together? Because I have yet to find anyone who agrees with your belief that elder fighters were weaker.

Let me sum that up: my knowledge is untested so far on this thread (that is to say, I haven't made any objective mistakes). On the other hand, you have made a definite, genuine, objective error which is revealing of your lack of knowledge. Therefore (based at least on what we have seen in this thread) I have superior boxing knowledge to you.

TheMagicMan
07-15-2010, 12:48 PM
Funny, that. Your post didn't seem to be very funny. No, you were presenting Hagler defeating Roy Jones as fact. Whether you conveniently "forgot", genuinely forgot, or simply did not know that it was Roy Jones Jr., instead of just Roy Jones, I think you need to make it a little clearer when you present a joke. I don't think anybody thought that was a joke (after all, if Hagler had beaten Jones Jr., that would be his most impressive victory).



There you go again, mouthing off and making statements about your boxing knowledge without any evidence. Well, let me ask you this: do you think you know more about boxing than all of the people who have posted in this thread put together? Because I have yet to find anyone who agrees with your belief that elder fighters were weaker.

Let me sum that up: my knowledge is untested so far on this thread (that is to say, I haven't made any objective mistakes). On the other hand, you have made a definite, genuine, objective error which is revealing of your lack of knowledge. Therefore (based at least on what we have seen in this thread) I have superior boxing knowledge to you.

This thread is in the boxing history section, most of these people have to get their great grand kids to help them log onto the internets. Ask them who would win, Klitschko vs. Braddock and I bet theyd all pick Braddock...why? Because they live in the past. Look im sure they have a lot of knowledge on who Jack dempsey fought in his 4th match etc...I dont care, explain this.

Swimming is virtually the same sport as its always been, correct? Same strokes, tight suits, yes I know suit technology has improved, but many swimmers wear drag suits throughout the season and only put on sharkskins etc...at the big meets. Clearly more people swam from 1930-1976 combined than do today right? Well the consolation heat at the Big Ten conference meet, every single one of them broke the 1976 50 freestyle record. Every single one. A highschooler broke the 50 freestyle record of that time by almost 3 seconds...Michael Phelps, who submits to olympic style drug testing, beat every single swimming world record from 5 days before, in practice...wearing board shorts.

TheMagicMan
07-15-2010, 12:53 PM
And as for Roy Jones...first of all im a RJJ historian, second of all if I really thought RJJ lost to Hagler,w hy would I have him ahead of Hagler, not mention it and say I felt RJJs only downfall was his fear of the British? Doesnt make much sense. Also did you read the title of the thread, I like to have fun while talkking trash.

GameGod
07-15-2010, 01:01 PM
This thread is in the boxing history section, most of these people have to get their great grand kids to help them log onto the internets. Ask them who would win, Klitschko vs. Braddock and I bet theyd all pick Braddock...why? Because they live in the past. Look im sure they have a lot of knowledge on who Jack dempsey fought in his 4th match etc...I dont care, explain this.

How far away I am from even having a great grand-kid might surprise you.
As for Klitschko vs. Braddock, that would easily go Klitschko's way. There's no point in being overly balanced to the past. But nor is there a good reason to believe that boxers now are superior to those of the past. Klitschko is superior to Braddock because he is more dominant against a higher quality of opposition, not because he is champion in a more modern era.

Swimming is virtually the same sport as its always been, correct? Same strokes, tight suits, yes I know suit technology has improved, but many swimmers wear drag suits throughout the season and only put on sharkskins etc...at the big meets. Clearly more people swam from 1930-1976 combined than do today right? Well the consolation heat at the Big Ten conference meet, every single one of them broke the 1976 50 freestyle record. Every single one. A highschooler broke the 50 freestyle record of that time by almost 3 seconds...Michael Phelps, who submits to olympic style drug testing, beat every single swimming world record from 5 days before, in practice...wearing board shorts.

Nutrition methods and training methods have improved as well, but unlike Boxing a lot of technique has changed in swimming. The last major set of technique changes in boxing was in the Joe Louis era. So I would easily accept it if you said Klitschko could beat Dempsey. However, since then (take, for instance, Sugar Ray Robinson), technique has changed little in boxing but a lot in swimming (along with ultra-effective new gear), and training methods have also not changed much in boxing. Therefore, Sugar Ray Robinson would easily defeat (theoretically, since we don't know his exact limit) Mayweather, based on dominance.

But again, this is completely missing the point. Like I said before, when ranking fighters across history you do not consider who would beat who, as, in some people's opinions (such as yours) this gives an advantage to more modern fighters. Rather, you need to compensate for the era in which the boxer lived and ask yourself how he would do if he lived now. The best way to do this is not to have a "mental match-up" of the fighters but rather to consider their DOMINANCE against their QUALITY OF OPPOSITION, factoring in things like how long their careers were and how often they fought.

TheMagicMan
07-15-2010, 01:08 PM
How far away I am from even having a great grand-kid might surprise you.
As for Klitschko vs. Braddock, that would easily go Klitschko's way. There's no point in being overly balanced to the past. But nor is there a good reason to believe that boxers now are superior to those of the past. Klitschko is superior to Braddock because he is more dominant against a higher quality of opposition, not because he is champion in a more modern era.



Nutrition methods and training methods have improved as well, but unlike Boxing a lot of technique has changed in swimming. The last major set of technique changes in boxing was in the Joe Louis era. So I would easily accept it if you said Klitschko could beat Dempsey. However, since then (take, for instance, Sugar Ray Robinson), technique has changed little in boxing but a lot in swimming (along with ultra-effective new gear), and training methods have also not changed much in boxing. Therefore, Sugar Ray Robinson would easily defeat (theoretically, since we don't know his exact limit) Mayweather, based on dominance.

But again, this is completely missing the point. Like I said before, when ranking fighters across history you do not consider who would beat who, as, in some people's opinions (such as yours) this gives an advantage to more modern fighters. Rather, you need to compensate for the era in which the boxer lived and ask yourself how he would do if he lived now. The best way to do this is not to have a "mental match-up" of the fighters but rather to consider their DOMINANCE against their QUALITY OF OPPOSITION, factoring in things like how long their careers were and how often they fought.

First of all technique in boxing has changed a lot, you just dont notice the nuances, hand positions, the way people punch, just talk to any russian trainer and theyll tell you "we did study." Also SRR didnt fight the same comp, and he has losses. SRR fought retired policemen, janitors, bums who wandered into the ring. Fighting SRR it was like the price is right, youd be walking in, theyd like your look and theyd stop you. Theyd be like "want to fight SRR tonight?" adn youd be like "sure". Thats how SRR fights happened.

Joeyzagz
07-15-2010, 04:29 PM
And as for the younger guy always beating the older guy, come on thats just stupid. First of all, everyone knows that Fraziers sole goal in his career was to beat Ali, he did, and he never was the same fighter again, won 5 of his last 10 fights. He got complacent. Also Lewis was the HW champion, somethign that 90% of the old guys in your list were not. They were old washed up bums wheeled out there to add legitimacy to a younger fighter, not to really be a challenge.

90% where you get that number from?

Dempsey was Heavyweight champion of the world when Tunney beat him

JCC was (96-1) and lightweight champ when De la hoya beat him

Liston was Heavyweight champ of the world when Ali beat him

Ali was Lineal HW champ when Holmes beat him

Thats closer to 50% than 90% but the point is, the younger, hungrier, ATG should win if he expects to be put in the same class. And even if he wins, it still doesnt mean he is greater, just younger. (Holmes/ali) (DLH/JCC)

Prime Vitali didnt even win so its difficult to consider him at all.

If youre going to fight a HW championship fight, you will prep differently, VItali is smarter than Lewis, he prepares better and he trains harder. Did you see the punch that opened the cut? uhh that wasnt a good hit, that was a fluke graze that pulled the skin.

Vitali was NOT smarter than Lewis, and the following clip will prove this.

Vitali was startled by Lennox's aggression in the 3rd round and foolishly tried to hold him to stop the onslaught. While in the clinch, Lennox blasted him on the side of the face and Vits eyelid exploded like a ketchup packet.

It was not a "fluke graze", more like a perfectly executed kill shot.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6199/thecuts.gif

Old Lennox > Prime Vitali.

TheMagicMan
07-15-2010, 06:18 PM
90% where you get that number from?

Dempsey was Heavyweight champion of the world when Tunney beat him

JCC was (96-1) and lightweight champ when De la hoya beat him

Liston was Heavyweight champ of the world when Ali beat him

Ali was Lineal HW champ when Holmes beat him

Thats closer to 50% than 90% but the point is, the younger, hungrier, ATG should win if he expects to be put in the same class. And even if he wins, it still doesnt mean he is greater, just younger. (Holmes/ali) (DLH/JCC)

Prime Vitali didnt even win so its difficult to consider him at all.



Vitali was NOT smarter than Lewis, and the following clip will prove this.

Vitali was startled by Lennox's aggression in the 3rd round and foolishly tried to hold him to stop the onslaught. While in the clinch, Lennox blasted him on the side of the face and Vits eyelid exploded like a ketchup packet.

It was not a "fluke graze", more like a perfectly executed kill shot.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6199/thecuts.gif

Old Lennox > Prime Vitali.

You clearly have never boxed, thats an illegal shot, first Lewis was headbutting and then with his arm wrapped around his neck punched in the clinch, you are right, fight should have gone to a TD, or been stopped right there and Lewis should have gotted DQ'ed, Vitali won. Thanks for proving it.

DarkTerror88
07-15-2010, 09:15 PM
You clearly have never boxed, thats an illegal shot, first Lewis was headbutting and then with his arm wrapped around his neck punched in the clinch, you are right, fight should have gone to a TD, or been stopped right there and Lewis should have gotte[n] DQ'ed, Vitali won. Thanks for proving it.

You never fought either because its not illegal ifso factso because Vitali started the clinch and was holding LL's arm. Vitali's head also wasnt being held onto like you said but the arm was around as it could not be used from there His head was pushed into LL's arm after the punch though.
I'm not really a fan of LL but i know what an illegal shot, ive been hit with quite a few.

Ziggy Stardust
07-15-2010, 09:16 PM
The body part of the day is anus. As in: TheMagicMan speaks through his anus :bullsh1t9:

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
07-15-2010, 09:16 PM
You never fought either because its not illegal ifso factso because Vitali started the clinch and was holding LL's arm. Vitali's head also wasnt being held onto like you said but the arm was around as it could not be used from there His head was pushed into LL's arm after the punch though.
I'm not really a fan of LL but i know what an illegal shot, ive been hit with quite a few.

Magic Man also claims he's a lawyer :hahahaha9:

Poet

DarkTerror88
07-15-2010, 09:36 PM
Magic Man also claims he's a lawyer :hahahaha9:

Poet

well, he's smart on that part, makes more than I do in a year in probably a week haha.

BigStereotype
07-15-2010, 09:58 PM
1. Joe Calzaghe- 46-0, over 20 title defenses. Didnt go down until his mid 30's. wins over legends HOpkinds, Jones, and Eubank. Wins over Kessler, Lacy and Veit all guys who were very very good. Joe was the best.

2. Floyd Mayweather Jr. Whats there to say that hasnt been said? Hes the man. Hard to put him number 2, but I just dont see a way that his style could match up with the southpaw dragon.

3. Vitali Klitschko- I love him, you love him, we all love him. Never been down, never finished a match behind on the score cards. A freak of nature.

4. Wladimir Klitschko- could overtake his bro someday. The more athletic brother, but with an acchilles heal called his chin. Hes learned to hide it and avoid punches to it.

5. Roy Jones Jr. - Freak athlete, afraid of British people was his only downfall. had he fought Benn or Collins or Eubank or beaten a joe calzaghe then he would be higher, but unfortunately he never did.

6. James Lights Out Toney- The beast

7. Lennox Lewis- Contrary to reports, the man didnt have that bad of a chin, watch the first round vs. Briggs. He took the mans best shots. I dont know how much he sparred, but in his 2 ko's he looked more stunned. In round 4 vs. Briggs he has felt the mans shots and stands there smiling at him. Big strong and skilled. No HW before his time would have stood much of a chance.

8. SRL- Had all the skills, was quick, the best of his time for sure, the boxing game has just passed his time up by a little bit.

9. Bad Chad Dawson- A man like Bad would murder an old timer like Marciano with speend and precision. He needs some better competition, but who knows how high or low he has to go to find it.

10. Marvin Hagler- A great great fighter who like SRL has just been a little bit passed by

Honorable mention -Pernell Whitaker, Paul Williams, Shane, JCC, and Erik Morales.

Dude, you forgot Zab Judah, Kimbo Slice, Obi-Wan Kenobi and my grandmother! What are you, retarded or something?

them_apples
07-15-2010, 10:01 PM
I know plenty about boxing history, let me ask you this. When you look down the greatest basketball players of all time, how many could play today? Or football players, you think Johnny Unitas, even his numbers, hold up today? This is a factual list, not some fantasy list where 5'9 182 pounders with no technique could beat a Klitschko. This is a real world list. I live in the real world. and operate in it as such. These are the 10 best fighters of all time, who if you put them in a ring against people their weight class, theyd perform the best. Im not taking into account for his time or what not.

the most hilarious part is Joe Calzaghe.

BigStereotype
07-15-2010, 10:13 PM
the most hilarious part is Joe Calzaghe.

The most hilarious part is his list. And his condescension. That's pretty funny too.

Joeyzagz
07-15-2010, 10:27 PM
You clearly have never boxed, thats an illegal shot, first Lewis was headbutting and then with his arm wrapped around his neck punched in the clinch, you are right, fight should have gone to a TD, or been stopped right there and Lewis should have gotted DQ'ed, Vitali won. Thanks for proving it.

First you call a clear punch a fluke, now you are making up imaginary headbutts? Lennox's head NEVER touched Vitali's face in that entire exchange, not even close.

Why would you DQ the guy trying to punch his way OUT of the clinch? If Vitali doesnt want to get hit like that he has 3 options:


A. Use his two free hands to hit Lennox
B. Clinch harder
C. Dont initiate clinches in the first place

I enjoy it when clinchers get punished. Here is another clip of Vit trying to clinch and the fail...

http://i50.tinypic.com/15g4742.gif

TheMagicMan
07-15-2010, 10:58 PM
the most hilarious part is Joe Calzaghe.

Uhh, Joe Calzaghe beat RJJ, who beat John Ruiz, Who beat Evander, who beat Tyson, Who beat Larry Holmes who Beat Ali, Who beat Archie moore (who knocked down Marciano) who beat ezzard charles who beat Joe Louis who beat Max Baer who beat Max Schmelling who beat Mickey Walker who beat Tiger Flowers who beat Harry Greb who beat Gene Tunney who beat jack dempsey who beat Jess Willard who beat Jack Johnson.

Clearly its pretty easy to see that Joe Calzaghe is the GOAT, he pretty much has wins over all of your legends and he has never been defeated. So yeah, like you to prove somehow Jack Johnson beat Joe Calzaghe? Cause Joe's lineage of massacres goes all the way back. And yes I know there are easier ways to prove he'd beat jack johnson, but i wanted to put some of the greats on there so youd know that joe calzaghe is the man.

TheMagicMan
07-15-2010, 11:00 PM
First you call a clear punch a fluke, now you are making up imaginary headbutts? Lennox's head NEVER touched Vitali's face in that entire exchange, not even close.

Why would you DQ the guy trying to punch his way OUT of the clinch? If Vitali doesnt want to get hit like that he has 3 options:


A. Use his two free hands to hit Lennox
B. Clinch harder
C. Dont initiate clinches in the first place

I enjoy it when clinchers get punished. Here is another clip of Vit trying to clinch and the fail...

http://i50.tinypic.com/15g4742.gif

And just so you know only 45 tried and 45 lost, Joe gave one rematch in his entire career. Not because it was a close fight, but because he took Veit's 0, veit won like the next 15 fights and Joe took him again.

Roger Yomama
07-15-2010, 11:12 PM
1. Joe Calzaghe- 46-0, over 20 title defenses. Didnt go down until his mid 30's. wins over legends HOpkinds, Jones, and Eubank. Wins over Kessler, Lacy and Veit all guys who were very very good. Joe was the best.

2. Floyd Mayweather Jr. Whats there to say that hasnt been said? Hes the man. Hard to put him number 2, but I just dont see a way that his style could match up with the southpaw dragon.

3. Vitali Klitschko- I love him, you love him, we all love him. Never been down, never finished a match behind on the score cards. A freak of nature.

4. Wladimir Klitschko- could overtake his bro someday. The more athletic brother, but with an acchilles heal called his chin. Hes learned to hide it and avoid punches to it.

5. Roy Jones Jr. - Freak athlete, afraid of British people was his only downfall. had he fought Benn or Collins or Eubank or beaten a joe calzaghe then he would be higher, but unfortunately he never did.

6. James Lights Out Toney- The beast

7. Lennox Lewis- Contrary to reports, the man didnt have that bad of a chin, watch the first round vs. Briggs. He took the mans best shots. I dont know how much he sparred, but in his 2 ko's he looked more stunned. In round 4 vs. Briggs he has felt the mans shots and stands there smiling at him. Big strong and skilled. No HW before his time would have stood much of a chance.

8. SRL- Had all the skills, was quick, the best of his time for sure, the boxing game has just passed his time up by a little bit.

9. Bad Chad Dawson- A man like Bad would murder an old timer like Marciano with speend and precision. He needs some better competition, but who knows how high or low he has to go to find it.

10. Marvin Hagler- A great great fighter who like SRL has just been a little bit passed by

Honorable mention -Pernell Whitaker, Paul Williams, Shane, JCC, and Erik Morales.

Are you high? The Klits?!! Dawson?!!! Cal****inzaghe?!!!! You need to invest in some dvds my friend.

Roger Yomama
07-15-2010, 11:17 PM
Roy has a time machine
http://www.manandhisbaby.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/back-to-the-future.jpeg

Prime Roy KO's Physics in the 1st

BigStereotype
07-15-2010, 11:52 PM
Uhh, Joe Calzaghe beat RJJ, who beat John Ruiz, Who beat Evander, who beat Tyson, Who beat Larry Holmes who Beat Ali, Who beat Archie moore (who knocked down Marciano) who beat ezzard charles who beat Joe Louis who beat Max Baer who beat Max Schmelling who beat Mickey Walker who beat Tiger Flowers who beat Harry Greb who beat Gene Tunney who beat jack dempsey who beat Jess Willard who beat Jack Johnson.

Clearly its pretty easy to see that Joe Calzaghe is the GOAT, he pretty much has wins over all of your legends and he has never been defeated. So yeah, like you to prove somehow Jack Johnson beat Joe Calzaghe? Cause Joe's lineage of massacres goes all the way back. And yes I know there are easier ways to prove he'd beat jack johnson, but i wanted to put some of the greats on there so youd know that joe calzaghe is the man.

I spoke too soon. Using John Ruiz in a GOAT discussion is the best part. Seriously? John Ruiz > Evander Holyfield? Are you high?

SBleeder
07-16-2010, 05:26 AM
Uhh, Joe Calzaghe beat RJJ, who beat John Ruiz, Who beat Evander, who beat Tyson, Who beat Larry Holmes who Beat Ali, Who beat Archie moore (who knocked down Marciano) who beat ezzard charles who beat Joe Louis who beat Max Baer who beat Max Schmelling who beat Mickey Walker who beat Tiger Flowers who beat Harry Greb who beat Gene Tunney who beat jack dempsey who beat Jess Willard who beat Jack Johnson.

Clearly its pretty easy to see that Joe Calzaghe is the GOAT, he pretty much has wins over all of your legends and he has never been defeated. So yeah, like you to prove somehow Jack Johnson beat Joe Calzaghe? Cause Joe's lineage of massacres goes all the way back. And yes I know there are easier ways to prove he'd beat jack johnson, but i wanted to put some of the greats on there so youd know that joe calzaghe is the man.

Go Hagler must be second best ever since he beat Roy Jones Jr., huh?

Panthershock
07-16-2010, 08:12 AM
Uhh, Joe Calzaghe beat RJJ, who beat John Ruiz, Who beat Evander, who beat Tyson, Who beat Larry Holmes who Beat Ali, Who beat Archie moore (who knocked down Marciano) who beat ezzard charles who beat Joe Louis who beat Max Baer who beat Max Schmelling who beat Mickey Walker who beat Tiger Flowers who beat Harry Greb who beat Gene Tunney who beat jack dempsey who beat Jess Willard who beat Jack Johnson.

Clearly its pretty easy to see that Joe Calzaghe is the GOAT, he pretty much has wins over all of your legends and he has never been defeated. So yeah, like you to prove somehow Jack Johnson beat Joe Calzaghe? Cause Joe's lineage of massacres goes all the way back. And yes I know there are easier ways to prove he'd beat jack johnson, but i wanted to put some of the greats on there so youd know that joe calzaghe is the man.

Archie Moore knocking down Marciano is part of your lineage?? Thats as good as a win I guess, lets play by those rules then.
Alberto Alicea beat Bob Andrews who beat Robert Fredericks who beat Clinton Mitchell who beat Bernard Hopkins who knocked down Calzaghe.

I just determined using your logic that Alberto Alicea with a career record of 6-35 is the greatest fighter ever. What planet do you spend most of your time on?

TheMagicMan
07-16-2010, 08:57 AM
Archie Moore knocking down Marciano is part of your lineage?? Thats as good as a win I guess, lets play by those rules then.
Alberto Alicea beat Bob Andrews who beat Robert Fredericks who beat Clinton Mitchell who beat Bernard Hopkins who knocked down Calzaghe.

I just determined using your logic that Alberto Alicea with a career record of 6-35 is the greatest fighter ever. What planet do you spend most of your time on?

Knocking down Marciano and beating his face in as well, but i didnt count it as a win and its more of a footnote rather than apart of Joe's lineage. Also, lets face it, Joe was pass prime when Bhop knocked him down and it was a fluke knockdown, Joe got up angry and proceeded to humiliate Bernard HOpkins. Do not make JOe mad cause he is amped already he took titles from fighters who were champs already.

BigStereotype
07-16-2010, 09:55 AM
And Hopkins wasn't? Surely though, Roy Jones was prime when Calzaghe beat him...oh wait. Was he prime when Hagler beat him, though :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

TheMagicMan
07-16-2010, 10:09 AM
And Hopkins wasn't? Surely though, Roy Jones was prime when Calzaghe beat him...oh wait. Was he prime when Hagler beat him, though :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

DUde I dont look at primes, I look at the wins and losses. This is boxing, there aint no primes, Im sick of old timers like you, oh he lost, hes past his prime. NO he aint no past prime, he got his ass whooped. Or oh, he lost early on in his career, he wasnt prime yet. Dear god, the Wlad Klitschko who beat Ray Austin is the greatest fighter of all time. He won a HW championship fight with one hand behind his back. Joe was knocked down a couple times in his careers by fluke punches, this only happened early in bouts because he couldnt spar. Why couldnt Bhop knock joe down again? Its because he had to feel that initial hard hit and his body would adapt.

Joe Calzaghe is undefeated, you know what that means? That means he aint never been stopped. Unlike the clowns on your list who have been KTFO or stopped.

Sugarj
07-16-2010, 11:35 AM
'DUde I dont look at primes, I look at the wins and losses.'



Thats what Boxrec warriors do!!!

TheMagicMan
07-16-2010, 02:08 PM
'DUde I dont look at primes, I look at the wins and losses.'



Thats what Boxrec warriors do!!!

Nothats what people who dont make excuses do. Look at calzaghe...does he make excuses? Hell no. No excuses. He just wins. Look at Floyd, he just wins, no excuses, no prime, he just wins. Thats all he knows how to do.

Toney616
07-16-2010, 02:11 PM
Prime Roy KO's Physics in the 1st
Great Stuff:rofl::rofl:

Othello
07-16-2010, 02:22 PM
Hagler does have a victory over Roy jones though, which is why hes in my top 10 P4P ATG OF ALL TIME list.
http://i29.tinypic.com/34ss8ow.jpg

Cassius Liston
07-16-2010, 02:35 PM
this guy is really smart...i think this guy is just ****ing with everyone...he can't be serious...he's just trying to annoy people and its working ...nothing is more annoying than thinking there are actually imbeciles out there that rank Joe Calzaghe in any top ten list let alone at the Number 1

Toney616
07-16-2010, 02:42 PM
this guy is really smart...i think this guy is just ****ing with everyone...he can't be serious...he's just trying to annoy people and its working ...nothing is more annoying than thinking there are actually imbeciles out there that rank Joe Calzaghe in any top ten list let alone at the Number 1
Im sure the guy is joking, there is no way anyone can believe that....

Joeyzagz
07-16-2010, 03:01 PM
Nothats what people who dont make excuses do. Look at calzaghe...does he make excuses? Hell no. No excuses. He just wins. Look at Floyd, he just wins, no excuses, no prime, he just wins. Thats all he knows how to do.

I AGREE all Joe Calzaghe does is WIN no excuses!!!


All Vitali does is QUIT.

Ow my shoulder hurts, Byrd is too fast and Im punching nothing but Air please help me!
http://i49.tinypic.com/2hs6xxg.gif

My skin is made of toilet paper and rips so easy, I want to fight Lennox when he is 40 so I can have a better chance Waaaaaaaaaaaaa cry, cry

http://www.ioffer.com/img/item/610/051/91/9IXMUWJv1WbYAqs.jpg

cameronpaul
07-16-2010, 03:36 PM
this guy is really smart...i think this guy is just ****ing with everyone...he can't be serious...he's just trying to annoy people and its working ...nothing is more annoying than thinking there are actually imbeciles out there that rank Joe Calzaghe in any top ten list let alone at the Number 1
im british, from england -and it makes me smile that other people can see how **** calzaghe is. 1.his got no power
2. his got an italian chin (which comes with italian IQ)
3. his like the kid in the class that trys super hard and beats you barely- you just feel slightly let down by how much a jobsworth he is.
4. welsh
5. landed over 1000 punches vs jeff lacy and didnt even hurt him once.
6. i agree that if you win youve done your job well. but theres also a class aspect of the game, like watching brasil play football. calzaghe did not have natural beuaty of basil -he faught hard and faught to win. but thats not class , its just work rate.

DarkTerror88
07-16-2010, 03:40 PM
I AGREE all Joe Calzaghe does is WIN no excuses!!!


All Vitali does is QUIT.

Ow my shoulder hurts, Byrd is too fast and Im punching nothing but Air please help me!
http://i49.tinypic.com/2hs6xxg.gif

My skin is made of toilet paper and rips so easy, I want to fight Lennox when he is 40 so I can have a better chance Waaaaaaaaaaaaa cry, cry

http://www.ioffer.com/img/item/610/051/91/9IXMUWJv1WbYAqs.jpg
That just made my day. :lol1: even old, past his prime, lennox whupped him.


SO if Joe is the best, when he 50 and some guy mugs him on the street, who has no fighting skills, that makes him the p4p best fighter in the world? interesting. lol

Ziggy Stardust
07-16-2010, 05:19 PM
well, he's smart on that part, makes more than I do in a year in probably a week haha.

Too bad he has to make his living saying "Welcome to McDonald's may I take your order?" :hahahaha9:

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
07-16-2010, 05:24 PM
All laughing aside, why are we feeding this troll anyway? It's pretty damn obvious he's just an adolescent wind-up-merchant who just comes into Boxing History to piss people off :thinking9:

Poet

BattlingNelson
07-16-2010, 06:33 PM
All laughing aside, why are we feeding this troll anyway? It's pretty damn obvious he's just an adolescent wind-up-merchant who just comes into Boxing History to piss people off :thinking9:

Poet
^^^^ The truth. Don't feed the trolls. The history forum should be free from flames and trolls. Only civil discussions.

TBear
07-17-2010, 07:59 AM
1. Joe Calzaghe- 46-0, over 20 title defenses. Didnt go down until his mid 30's. wins over legends HOpkinds, Jones, and Eubank. Wins over Kessler, Lacy and Veit all guys who were very very good. Joe was the best.

2. Floyd Mayweather Jr. Whats there to say that hasnt been said? Hes the man. Hard to put him number 2, but I just dont see a way that his style could match up with the southpaw dragon.

3. Vitali Klitschko- I love him, you love him, we all love him. Never been down, never finished a match behind on the score cards. A freak of nature.

4. Wladimir Klitschko- could overtake his bro someday. The more athletic brother, but with an acchilles heal called his chin. Hes learned to hide it and avoid punches to it.

5. Roy Jones Jr. - Freak athlete, afraid of British people was his only downfall. had he fought Benn or Collins or Eubank or beaten a joe calzaghe then he would be higher, but unfortunately he never did.

6. James Lights Out Toney- The beast

7. Lennox Lewis- Contrary to reports, the man didnt have that bad of a chin, watch the first round vs. Briggs. He took the mans best shots. I dont know how much he sparred, but in his 2 ko's he looked more stunned. In round 4 vs. Briggs he has felt the mans shots and stands there smiling at him. Big strong and skilled. No HW before his time would have stood much of a chance.

8. SRL- Had all the skills, was quick, the best of his time for sure, the boxing game has just passed his time up by a little bit.

9. Bad Chad Dawson- A man like Bad would murder an old timer like Marciano with speend and precision. He needs some better competition, but who knows how high or low he has to go to find it.

10. Marvin Hagler- A great great fighter who like SRL has just been a little bit passed by

Honorable mention -Pernell Whitaker, Paul Williams, Shane, JCC, and Erik Morales.

Wow, for a moment I thought I pressed the wrong button and was in the NSB.

Bundana
07-17-2010, 08:01 AM
All laughing aside, why are we feeding this troll anyway? It's pretty damn obvious he's just an adolescent wind-up-merchant who just comes into Boxing History to piss people off :thinking9:

Poet

Exactly!

I don't believe anyone can possibly be as stupid/ignorant as this TS... I mean for real! He must be sitting there laughing his ass off, because so many have taken the bait.

Imagine if not a single poster had responded to this thread. Or to the posts of other trolls. Then they would have nowhere to go with their nonsense - and the real fans here could have some serious discussions.

TheMagicMan
07-17-2010, 11:33 AM
im british, from england -and it makes me smile that other people can see how **** calzaghe is. 1.his got no power
2. his got an italian chin (which comes with italian IQ)
3. his like the kid in the class that trys super hard and beats you barely- you just feel slightly let down by how much a jobsworth he is.
4. welsh
5. landed over 1000 punches vs jeff lacy and didnt even hurt him once.
6. i agree that if you win youve done your job well. but theres also a class aspect of the game, like watching brasil play football. calzaghe did not have natural beuaty of basil -he faught hard and faught to win. but thats not class , its just work rate.

Italian chin? Italians have the best chin so I assume thats a compliment. From Marciano, to Jake, to Paulie, Italians have had great chins over the years, so I guess thats a compliment?

So because you are not attracted to Joe Calzaghe he isnt the best?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45178000/jpg/_45178253_78eb96f8-6b4b-44c3-bdba-d112797488c9.jpg

Jeff Lacy looks pretty hurt here.

Your whole post is a joke.

boxing boy
07-17-2010, 03:23 PM
Italian chin? Italians have the best chin so I assume thats a compliment. From Marciano, to Jake, to Paulie, Italians have had great chins over the years, so I guess thats a compliment?

So because you are not attracted to Joe Calzaghe he isnt the best?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45178000/jpg/_45178253_78eb96f8-6b4b-44c3-bdba-d112797488c9.jpg

Jeff Lacy looks pretty hurt here.

Your whole post is a joke.

Your whole post is a joke?

Your entire threads and posts are a joke.

Hey everybody,TheMagicMan actually believes Muhammad Ali wanted to fight George Foreman in a "small" ring.

He doesn't even know that Muhammad Ali planned to dance the entire fight,and changed his mind "after" the first round.

This guy knows nothing about the things he posts.NOTHING.

Lets start calling him TheMagicJack,Lol