View Full Version : SBleeder's 100 All-time P4P List


SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:05 PM
This list was the product of hours of research and consideration as I was recuperating from back surgery. What follows is what I believe to be the top 100 pound-for-pound fighters of all time. It is, of course, my opinion only. At the very least, it should be a fun history thread for purposes of debate.

100. Manuel Ortiz
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/ortiz-manuel-33.jpg

99. Oscar De La Hoya
http://stevelundeberg.mvourtown.com/files/2010/02/Oscar-De-La-Hoya-Manny-Pacquiao73.jpg

98. Diego Corrales
http://www.thesweetscience.com/images/2403/diego_corrales_240x230_120105.jpg

97. Carl "Bobo" Olson
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/olson-carl-bobo-22.jpg

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:05 PM
96. Ricky Hatton
http://www.mkrob.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/hatton.jpg

95. Joe "Barbados Demon" Walcott
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL1127/4877881/10071352/144135876.jpg

94. Mike McCallum
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/5/50/Mccallum.jpg

93. Steve "Celtic Warrior" Collins
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj63/fadedlikeautumn/box_g_collinsbenn_580.jpg

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:06 PM
92. Michael Carbajal
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0316/box_g_carbajal_300.jpg

91. Marco Antonio Barrera
http://www.boxnews.com.ua/photos/294/marco-antonio-barrera27.jpg

90. Antonio Cervantes
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/cervantes-antonio-11.jpg

89. Eusebio Pedroza
http://www.critica.com.pa/archivo/011399/imagenes/dep.jpeg

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:18 PM
88. Sergio Martinez
http://www.konews.net/web_images/sergio_martinez.jpg

87. Pascual Perez
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/th/6/6c/Pascual-perez.jpg

86. Nigel Benn
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/thumb/3/31/Benn.Nigel.jpg/180px-Benn.Nigel.jpg

85. Billy Conn
http://www.topclassboxing.co.uk/images/BillConn.jpg

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:20 PM
84. Mike Tyson
http://www.adamcarolla.com/ACPBlog/wp-content/gallery/2010-01-21-dameshek/13-mike_tyson.jpg

83. Tommy Burns
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/burns-tommy-2.jpg

82. Terry McGovern
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/50/113050-004-E7C5BD55.jpg

81. Harry Wills
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/thumb/d/d1/Wills.Harry2.jpg/250px-Wills.Harry2.jpg

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:24 PM
80. Ruben Olivares
http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biografia/o/fotos/olivares_ruben.jpg

79. Evander Holyfield
http://www.pathwaysfamilychiro.com/img/evander_holyfield.jpg

78. Jake LaMotta
http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/public/news_images/4/72005_169557_9.jpg

77. Pancho Villa
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/0624/box_g_villa2_200.jpg

T.Horton
07-13-2010, 02:28 PM
Good work man! Green K. Obviously we're not going to agree but putting a top 100 list together is a feat in itself.

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:31 PM
76. Wilfred Benitez
http://boxeopr.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/07-wilfred-benitez.jpg

75. Gene Fullmer
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/fullmer-gene-44.jpg

74. Khaosai Galaxy
http://fistycuffs.webs.com/Galaxy%20k.jpg

73. Felix Trinidad
http://puertorico.informe.com/gallery/159-1/felix_trinidad.jpg

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:34 PM
72. Michael Spinks
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/spinks-michael-11.jpg

71. Lennox Lewis
http://thebluecorner.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lewis1.jpg

70. Fighting Harada
http://www.topclassboxing.co.uk/images/Fighting_Harada.jpg

69. Aaron Pryor
http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/0511/images/two.jpg

Sam Donald
07-13-2010, 02:36 PM
Coool but is there any need for pictures? Just put up the list

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:36 PM
68. Ted "Kid" Lewis
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/thumb/1/17/Lewis.TedKid2.jpg/250px-Lewis.TedKid2.jpg

67. Carlos Ortiz
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey/carlos%20ortiz.jpg

66. Jung-Koo Chang
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/chitalada-sot-11.jpg

65. Marcel Cedran
http://suljosblog.com/blog1/files/cerdan-marcel.jpg

Sam Donald
07-13-2010, 02:37 PM
Btw .. Few guys gotta be ranked higher

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:40 PM
64. Azumah Nelson
http://www.boxingwholesale.com/boxingwebsite28077007.jpg

63. Bernard Hopkins
http://www.gambling911.com/files/publisher/Bernard-Hopkins-10.jpg

62. "Jersey" Joe Walcott
http://marcmyers.typepad.com/.a/6a00e008dca1f08834010536f2434a970b-800wi

61. Kid Gavilan
http://www.championsofthering.com/boxing/Kid%20Gavilan%20SP.jpg

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:44 PM
60. Jack Johnson
http://stupidcelebrities.net/wp-content/jack_johnson_boxer.jpg

59. Salvador Sanchez
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/e/e6/Salvador_Sanchez.jpg

58. Fidel LaBarba
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2b/Fidel_LaBarba.jpg/397px-Fidel_LaBarba.jpg

57. Chris John
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss218/equal-life/Chris-John.jpg

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:47 PM
56. Joe Frazier
http://www.boxingdaily.co.uk/wp-content/img/2008/05/joe-frazier.JPG

55. Carmen Basilio
http://www.championsofthering.com/boxing/Carman%20Basilio%20SP.jpg

54. Jimmy Bivins
http://www.championsofthering.com/boxing/Carman%20Basilio%20SP.jpg

53. Stanley Ketchel
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/ketchel-stanley-2.jpg

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:48 PM
52. Maxie Rosenbloom
http://charlespaolino.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/boxers-maxie-rosenbloom.jpg

51. Jose Napoles
http://www.boxingrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Jose-Napoles.jpg

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 02:52 PM
To recap my 51-100:

51. Jose Napoles
52. Maxie Rosenbloom
53. Stanley Ketchel
54. Jimmy Bivins
55. Carmen Basilio
56. Joe Frazier
57. Chris John
58. Fidel LaBarba
59. Salvador Sanchez
60. Jack Johnson
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jersey Joe Walcott
63. Bernard Hopkins
64. Azumah Nelson
65. Marcel Cedran
66. Jung-Koo Chang
67. Carlos Ortiz
68. Kid Lewis
69. Aaron Pryor
70. Fighting Harada
71. Lennox Lewis
72. Michael Spinks
73. Felix Trinidad
74. Khaosai Galaxy
75. Gene Fullmer
76. Wilfredo Benitez
77. Pancho Villa
78. Jake LaMotta
79. Evander Holyfield
80. Ruben Olivares
81. Harry Wills
82. Terry McGovern
83. Tommy Burns
84. Mike Tyson
85. Billy Conn
86. Nigel Benn
87. Pascual Perez
88. Sergio Martinez
89. Eusebio Pedroza
90. Antonio Cervantes
91. Marco Antonio Barrera
92. Michael Carbajal
93. Steve “Celtic Warrior” Collins
94. Mike McCallum
95. “Barbados Demon” Joe Walcott
96. Ricky Hatton
97. Bobo Olson
98. Diego Corrales
99. Oscar De la Hoya
100. Manuel Ortiz


Top 50 to come tomorrow.

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 03:21 PM
Btw .. Few guys gotta be ranked higher

Which ones?

CarlosG815
07-13-2010, 03:51 PM
Btw .. Few guys gotta be ranked higher

That entire list is a joke.

SBleeder
07-13-2010, 03:54 PM
That entire list is a joke.

Explain. Tell me which ones are in the wrong spots.

CarlosG815
07-13-2010, 03:57 PM
Explain. Tell me which ones are in the wrong spots.

Sergio Martinez?

And the biggest joke of all, Lennox Lewis at 71 ahead of Spinks, Benitez, Holyfield?

:wow:

frankenfrank
07-14-2010, 04:50 AM
To recap my 51-100:

51. Jose Napoles
52. Maxie Rosenbloom
53. Stanley Ketchel
54. Jimmy Bivins
55. Carmen Basilio
56. Joe Frazier
57. Chris John
58. Fidel LaBarba
59. Salvador Sanchez
60. Jack Johnson
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jersey Joe Walcott
63. Bernard Hopkins
64. Azumah Nelson
65. Marcel Cedran
66. Jung-Koo Chang
67. Carlos Ortiz
68. Kid Lewis
69. Aaron Pryor
70. Fighting Harada
71. Lennox Lewis
72. Michael Spinks
73. Felix Trinidad
74. Khaosai Galaxy
75. Gene Fullmer
76. Wilfredo Benitez
77. Pancho Villa
78. Jake LaMotta
79. Evander Holyfield
80. Ruben Olivares
81. Harry Wills
82. Terry McGovern
83. Tommy Burns
84. Mike Tyson
85. Billy Conn
86. Nigel Benn
87. Pascual Perez
88. Sergio Martinez
89. Eusebio Pedroza
90. Antonio Cervantes
91. Marco Antonio Barrera
92. Michael Carbajal
93. Steve “Celtic Warrior” Collins
94. Mike McCallum
95. “Barbados Demon” Joe Walcott
96. Ricky Hatton
97. Bobo Olson
98. Diego Corrales
99. Oscar De la Hoya
100. Manuel Ortiz


Top 50 to come tomorrow.
(1) Oscar Delahoya must be higher , the man held titles in 6 weight divisions , how many more examples for this do you have ? Felix Trinidad was a cheater , held titles in only 3 divisions , never really beat Delahoya , and yet you put him higher , Oscar must be ahead of Tito and Corrales for sure .
(2) Tyson is too low in your list , couldn't find him a place at least in your top 30 ? the man was beating larger man on a regular basis .
(3) Benn ahead of Collins ? Collins stopped him twice , Benn was also stopped by Watson whom was stopped by Eubanks and by Eubanks himself. Collins lasted the distance twice against Eubanks the records even say he outpointed him twice. Collins and Benn are the same age and Collins is older than Eubanks , he must be ahead of Benn.
(4) I also believe Hopkins is too high , he is and was a mere foulist , never really obeyed the rules of boxing , and he beat either smaller men or a drained Tarver , this is all he ever done .

Toney616
07-14-2010, 05:19 PM
(3) Benn ahead of Collins ? Collins stopped him twice , Benn was also stopped by Watson whom was stopped by Eubanks and by Eubanks himself. Collins lasted the distance twice against Eubanks the records even say he outpointed him twice. Collins and Benn are the same age and Collins is older than Eubanks , he must be ahead of Benn.

Benn was practically a shot fighter after the McClellan fight, a fight in which he sustained a shadow on his brain. The shadow would further deteriote (due to Benn continuing to fight) into a brain legion by the time of the Collins fights. Which is the reason why Collins shouldn't get that much credit for beating him twice.

As for Collins stopping Benn twice, both were by tko. The first fight ended because Benn sustained a ankle injury and couldn't fight, which is why a rematch was made. In that fight his team pulled him out because they felt he was no longer the fighter he used to be.

Eubank was past prime at that point, but they are both still good wins for Collins

The highlighted part I'm going to ignore

considerthis
07-14-2010, 05:30 PM
This list was the product of hours of research and consideration as I was recuperating from back surgery. What follows is what I believe to be the top 100 pound-for-pound fighters of all time. It is, of course, my opinion only. At the very least, it should be a fun history thread for purposes of debate.

100. Manuel Ortiz
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/ortiz-manuel-33.jpg

99. Oscar De La Hoya
http://stevelundeberg.mvourtown.com/files/2010/02/Oscar-De-La-Hoya-Manny-Pacquiao73.jpg

98. Diego Corrales
http://www.thesweetscience.com/images/2403/diego_corrales_240x230_120105.jpg

97. Carl "Bobo" Olson
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/olson-carl-bobo-22.jpg

what might your criteria be? i haven't even made it past 95 yet and i already see corrales and hatton ahead of de la hoya.

considerthis
07-14-2010, 05:40 PM
Sergio Martinez?

And the biggest joke of all, Lennox Lewis at 71 ahead of Spinks, Benitez, Holyfield?

:wow:

don't really see a problem with ranking lewis ahead of benitez. if the end of benitez's career wasn't riddled with losses, some to non-descript opponents, it might be a different story.

Toney616
07-14-2010, 05:42 PM
Explain. Tell me which ones are in the wrong spots.
What criteria are you using, to evaluate fighters?

GameGod
07-14-2010, 06:36 PM
Of the 4 P4P lists that I've seen in the last week this is probably the best. I look forward to reading 1-50.

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 04:49 AM
what might your criteria be? i haven't even made it past 95 yet and i already see corrales and hatton ahead of de la hoya.

True , that's another knock , especially Diego MouthpieceSpitta HoBeata Corralles ahead of him , not that I agree Hatton should be higher than DLH.

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 04:50 AM
don't really see a problem with ranking lewis ahead of benitez. if the end of benitez's career wasn't riddled with losses, some to non-descript opponents, it might be a different story.

What criteria are you using, to evaluate fighters?

But hey , I bet yours would be worse.

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 04:54 AM
Benn was practically a shot fighter after the McClellan fight, a fight in which he sustained a shadow on his brain. The shadow would further deteriote (due to Benn continuing to fight) into a brain legion by the time of the Collins fights. Which is the reason why Collins shouldn't get that much credit for beating him twice.

As for Collins stopping Benn twice, both were by tko. The first fight ended because Benn sustained a ankle injury and couldn't fight, which is why a rematch was made. In that fight his team pulled him out because they felt he was no longer the fighter he used to be.

Eubank was past prime at that point, but they are both still good wins for Collins

The highlighted part I'm going to ignore
You can also ignore the fact Collins had brain damage too by that time , or do
you assume he had his brain damage after the Benn fights ?

And an ankle injury can be a result of a punch , you know ?

Both men , especially Eubanks were not more shot than Collins by the (respective) times they fought him. Remember Collins also fought Reggie Johnson , Mike McCallum and Sumbu Kalambay and Tony Thornton prior to facing them .

GameGod
07-15-2010, 08:04 AM
The main problems are:


Ricky Hatton, Corrales, Nigel Benn, Chris John (why are they even on the list?)
Tyson should be higher
Bernard Hopkins should be a bit lower


Also, throw away the pictures of the fighters and replace them with some sound reasoning.

BennyST
07-15-2010, 08:14 AM
Benn shouldn't be in any top 100 list. Chris John as a top 100 is just crazy. I mean really, he hasn't beaten anyone of note apart from Juan M. Marquez in his hometown in what was widely considered a highly disputable decision. He is still active also.

The worst I've seen so far though is Hatton. He is not, in any way, shape or form a top 100 P4P fighter. At 140, there are many fighters who are above him in terms of P4P greatness that should be above him. He is not a P4P great.

A top 100 list is of the greatest fighters ever. Hatton is among the most popular champions of our age but is not even a great champion of our age. He was just a good, decent champion who happened to be very popular. A top 100 lost will, or should anyway, be made up entirely of HOFers. John, Benn and Hatton are not HOFers.

You could make an argument for Benn I guess but not for the other two. I mean, think about it for a minute. How do Been, Hatton and John make the cut and are even above someone like Mike McCallum? Well, Hatton is two places below him but that's crazy! McCallum, and Hatton as equals? John and Been better? I would suggest some major revision. Apart from a few odd choices, which is just my opinion, it looks ok. :fing02:

Nonetheless, it takes a lot of work and thought to do these lists and while we will all disagree and have our complaints, I applaud you for making one up and putting it up here for folks to see and comment on.

Toney616
07-15-2010, 08:15 AM
You can also ignore the fact Collins had brain damage too by that time , or do you assume he had his brain damage after the Benn fights ?
Collins didnt have brain damage going into the Benn fights, I challenge you to prove me wrong i.e quote sources/links

And an ankle injury can be a result of a punch , you know ?
Benn threw a right hook which missed Collins, he was off balance, so he fell and twisted his ankle

Both men , especially Eubanks were not more shot than Collins by the (respective) times they fought him.
Benn was past prime by the the Wharton fight, he was practically shot after the McClellan fight and had no business being in a ring after that.

Eubank never fully recovered from the Watson II fight, the fact that Collins was able to outwork him is a clear indication that he was no longer the fighter he once was, but as I said before it is still a good win for Collins

Remember Collins also fought Reggie Johnson , Mike McCallum and Sumbu Kalambay and Tony Thornton prior to facing them .
Boxrecing again I see
Thorton (aka the punching postman) is a journeyman.

Mike McCallum wasnt a big puncher at mw, he outboxed Collins to win that fight. I had McCallum dominating the first half of the fight with Collins coming on strong in the last half.

Collins-Johnson was a close fight with Johnson doing just enough to get the nod.

Haven't seen the Kalamby fight so I can't comment. To the best of my knowledge Collins never took a bad beating in any of those fights, so your list proves what exactly?

Toney616
07-15-2010, 08:19 AM
But hey, I bet yours would be worse.
I would use more than Boxrec to evaluate a fighters resume, unlike you

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 10:00 AM
2 SBleeder : don't listen to them , it is good you posted their pics , I appreciate your effort for it , a few of them may be unfamiliar to some posters including myself .

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 10:02 AM
I would use more than Boxrec to evaluate a fighters resume, unlike you

Wrong again , d **** u know ?

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 10:16 AM
Collins didnt have brain damage going into the Benn fights, I challenge you to prove me wrong i.e quote sources/links

So when do you think he got his brain damage ? during the Benn fights or after them ? if your answer will be during , so maybe you should reexamine your claim about Benn being that shot by that time.

Benn threw a right hook which missed Collins, he was off balance, so he fell and twisted his ankle

Benn was no Michael Grant or Jameel McCline , not even Orlin Norris , for a man his size if he could fall that hard from missing a punch and was so weak ,
then this is a very legitimate TKO loss , such a weak man deserves to lose .
Yes I watched some of his fights , I know he was considered a big puncher
but I say more due to his technique : wide , full swinging punching than other reasons. To get injured from that in his size means nothing other than
(physical) weakness by definition.

Benn was past prime by the the Wharton fight, he was practically shot after the McClellan fight and had no business being in a ring after that.

Eubank never fully recovered from the Watson II fight, the fact that Collins was able to outwork him is a clear indication that he was no longer the fighter he once was, but as I said before it is still a good win for Collins

Eubanks was known for stamina issues and a smart lazy pace , Collins outworking him meant **** about him being prime or not.

Boxrecing again I see
Thorton (aka the punching postman) is a journeyman.

Which you base upon ? let me guess , watching him fight , right ?

Mike McCallum wasnt a big puncher at mw, he outboxed Collins to win that fight. I had McCallum dominating the first half of the fight with Collins coming on strong in the last half.

Collins-Johnson was a close fight with Johnson doing just enough to get the nod.

Haven't seen the Kalamby fight so I can't comment. To the best of my knowledge Collins never took a bad beating in any of those fights, so your list proves what exactly?
I remember he took some punishment against McCallum , whom another one of his opponents : Michael Watson suffered brain damage too.
I agree that McCallum was not a big puncher at MW , but if he landed enough
he could cause his damage .

SBleeder
07-15-2010, 10:36 AM
Since people didn't care for the pictures, I'll simply post my list. I'll follow up later with some explanations.

1. Ray Robinson

2. Muhammad Ali

3. Harry Greb

4. Sam Langford

5. Henry Armstrong

6. Willie Pep

7. Carlos Monzon

8. Ricardo Lopez

9. Joe Louis

10. Archie Moore

11. Pernell Whitaker

12. Benny Leonard

13. Eder Jofre

14. Joe Gans

15. Ray Leonard

16. Roberto Duran

17. Rocky Marciano

18. Dick Tiger

19. Ezzard Charles

20. Tony Canzoneri

21. Bob Fitzsimmons

22. Jimmy Wilde

23. Wilfredo Gomez

24. George Foreman

25. Julio Ceasar Chavez Sr.

26. Gene Tunney

27. Marvin Hagler.

28. Vicente Saldivar

29. Panama Al Brown

30. Sandy Saddler

31. Jimmy McLarin

32. Joe Calzaghe

33. Gilberto Roman

34. Alexis Arguello

35. Barney Ross

36. Larry Holmes

37. Ike Williams

38. Thomas Hearns

39. Young Corbett III

40. Jack Dempsey

41. Emile Griffith

42. Roy Jones, Jr.

43. Rosendo Alvarez

44. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

45. Duilio Loi

46. Abe Attell

47. Tommy Ryan

48. Mickey Walker

49. Sonny Liston

50. Manny Pacquiao

Toney616
07-15-2010, 10:38 AM
So when do you think he got his brain damage ? during the Benn fights or after them ? if your answer will be during , so maybe you should reexamine your claim about Benn being that shot by that time.
What brain damage are you talking about and how about a source as well?

To get injured from that in his size means nothing other than
(physical) weakness by definition.
You don't have to fall hard to injure yourself, maybe he had injured himself previously or something like that. Either way it doesn't really matter, Benn was a shot fighter at that point in his career

Eubanks was known for stamina issues and a smart lazy pace , Collins outworking him meant **** about him being prime or not.
How about the fact that he never fully recovered from the Watson II fight, a fact which was made very obvious during the later rounds of the Collins I fight (and I'm not talking about his stamina)

Which you base upon ? let me guess , watching him fight , right ?
How about the fact that he tended to come up short when he started to fight the top fighters? How about the fact that he had a day job as a postman?

I remember he took some punishment against McCallum , whom another one of his opponents : Michael Watson suffered brain damage too.
He didnt take a bad beating in that fight
The Eubank-Watson II fight bears no relevance to this topic

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 11:06 AM
What brain damage are you talking about and how about a source as well?

The brain damage that prevented him from facing Calzaghe , it should have been known to someone like you whom some 90% of his knowledge is about
the MW-SMW divisions of the 90s , Collins collapsed during his training camp for his supposed fight against Calzaghe when the winner should have gotten a shot at Roy Jones , the one who landed that final blow was Howard Eastman if I'm not wrong , I am not a great e-searcher , and esb , like bs restricted
the search of one's posts to a mere last 500 , so I know if I will try to dig deep in my account there , I will still not find it.
But it is quite of a known fact , especially to someone like you , who uses so many other sources than just a boxrec , always a surprise when a boxrec warrior like myself catches the likes of you , great boxing historian , off guard :yep: , you should really be ashamed of yourself and do your homework next time before trying to argue with me.

You don't have to fall hard to injure yourself, maybe he had injured himself previously or something like that. Either way it doeant really matter, Benn was a shot fighter at that point in his career

I don't think having your head dead has a lot to do with having weak feet.
Benn was weak , not because he was shot , Benn was stopped in his prime also , Collins would have always beaten him.

How about the fact that he never fully recovered from the Watson II fight, a fact which was made very obvious in the Collins I fight

How about the fact that he tended to come up short when he started to fight the top fighters? How about the fact that he had a day job as a postman?

Tony Thornton was a decent fighter , maybe not a top 20 all time MW
(oops , I forgot , you don't do lists) , but a durable quality opponent during his prime.

He didnt take a bad beating in that fight
The Eubank-Watson II fight bears no relevance to this topic
I meant McCallum possibly caused a significant part of the damage done to Watson and Collins , I did watch McCallum-Collins , and McCallum did beat him in the beginning , what happened later in the fight does not take a lot from the damage he took early in the fight.

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 11:13 AM
Since people didn't care for the pictures, I'll simply post my list. I'll follow up later with some explanations.

1. Ray Robinson

2. Muhammad Ali

3. Harry Greb

4. Sam Langford

5. Henry Armstrong

6. Willie Pep

7. Carlos Monzon

8. Ricardo Lopez

9. Joe Louis

10. Archie Moore

11. Pernell Whitaker

12. Benny Leonard

13. Eder Jofre

14. Joe Gans

15. Ray Leonard

16. Roberto Duran

17. Rocky Marciano

18. Dick Tiger

19. Ezzard Charles

20. Tony Canzoneri

21. Bob Fitzsimmons

22. Jimmy Wilde

23. Wilfredo Gomez

24. George Foreman

25. Julio Ceasar Chavez Sr.

26. Gene Tunney

27. Marvin Hagler.

28. Vicente Saldivar

29. Panama Al Brown

30. Sandy Saddler

31. Jimmy McLarin

32. Joe Calzaghe

33. Gilberto Roman

34. Alexis Arguello

35. Barney Ross

36. Larry Holmes

37. Ike Williams

38. Thomas Hearns

39. Young Corbett III

40. Jack Dempsey

41. Emile Griffith

42. Roy Jones, Jr.

43. Rosendo Alvarez

44. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

45. Duilio Loi

46. Abe Attell

47. Tommy Ryan

48. Mickey Walker

49. Sonny Liston

50. Manny Pacquiao

Langford below Ali and Greb is an insult.
Below Robinson is just wrong.
Foreman above Hagler and JCC ? really ?
Holmes at 36 ? yes he stopped Cooney but was outpointed by a lightheavy .
Liston at 49 ? above all the guys you put in 100-51 ? and above Pacquiao ? :no:
And Arguello so much higher than DLH which you put below Hatton and Corrales ? damn .
But at least you compiled a list unlike all of those bragging turdheads .

Toney616
07-15-2010, 11:25 AM
The brain damage that prevented him from facing Calzaghe , it should have been known to someone like you whom some 90% of his knowledge is about the MW-SMW divisions of the 90s , Collins collapsed during his training camp for his supposed fight against Calzaghe when the winner should have gotten a shot at Roy Jones , the one who landed that final blow was Howard Eastman if I'm not wrong , I am not a great e-searcher , and esb , like bs restricted
the search of one's posts to a mere last 500 , so I know if I will try to dig deep in my account there , I will still not find it.
But it is quite of a known fact , especially to someone like you , who uses so many other sources than just a boxrec , always a surprise when a boxrec warrior like myself catches the likes of you , great boxing historian , off guard :yep: , you should really be ashamed of yourself and do your homework next time before trying to argue with me.

At least I know some period of boxing, which is much more than you do

As for the rest of your post, what are you going on about?
First point:
You still have not quoted any source or reliable link, so I have to assume that you are just quoting another users post, which I am sure you are doing
Second point:
The was no sparring session for any Calzaghe fight, Collins made it quite clear that he would only come out of retirement to fight Jones, no one else.
It was Lou Dibella in 1999 (the president of HBO), that suggested that Collins should fight Calzaghe at some point on a Jones undercard in order to create interest for a possible Jones showdown
Third point:
The negotiations for a possible Jones-Collins fight took place in 1999, so are you trying to say that because Collins collapsed during a IMAGINARY SPARRING SESSION in 1999 that meant he was brain damaged in 1996?

Lou Dibella 1999:
"There would be little or no interest in Collins v Jones in America. Collins has not fought in a year and a half and although he was a very good champion there would not be a great deal of interest in him in America at the moment. If he wants to fight someone else before Roy Jones then interest may pick up.
"I would like to see Collins fight Joe Calzaghe, who holds Collins' former super middleweight crown. Calzaghe is an exciting fighter, whom we have earmarked to fight Roy Jones at some stage. At the moment Reggie Johnson, the IBF light heavyweight champion, is the one who I feel most deserves a shot at Jones. However, if Collins was to fight Calazaghe possibly on a Jones undercard, then the winner could meet Jones in their next contest," said Dibella.
The likelihood of Collins fighting anyone but Jones is slim, given that he has consistently said that he would only come out of retirement to meet Jones.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/01/15/fshead.htm

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 11:55 AM
What are you going on about?
First point:
You still have not quoted any source or reliable link, so I have to assume that you are just quoting another users post, which I am sure you are doing

That poster also provided me with a link to that source which is now lost because of BS's and ESB's searching policy , try contacting lucatoni008 or something , he is that poster .
But I think he too has posted more than 500 posts since then.
Shame on you for not knowing that and even doubting my claims for not the first time.

Second point:
The was no sparring session for any Calzaghe fight, Collins made it quite clear that he would only come out of retirement to fight Jones, no one else.

As I wrote , if he won against Calzaghe he was supposed to get Jones ,
I think it happened during his preparations to fight Calzaghe at 1997 ,
where did I claim it was 1999 , and what made you think I did ?
And why do you think Collins retired at a mere 33 ?

It was Lou Dibella in 1999 (the president of HBO), that suggested that Collins should fight Calzaghe at some point on a Jones undercard in order to create interest for a possible Jones showdown

So maybe it was then. But I did not mention any year prior to this current post of yours.

Third point:
The negotiations for a possible Jones-Collins fight took place in 1999, so are you trying to say that because Collins collapsed during a IMAGINARY SPARRING SESSION in 1999 that meant he was brain damaged in 1996?

Lou Dibella 1999:

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/01/15/fshead.htm
Again , Shame on you for not knowing such a fact and doubting my claims ,
blame ESB for me being unable to bring you your so called evidence , and my
and yours poor internet searching skills .

Toney616
07-15-2010, 12:07 PM
I don't think having your head dead has a lot to do with having weak feet.
Benn was weak , not because he was shot , Benn was stopped in his prime also , Collins would have always beaten him.
What are you going on about? He twisted his ankle, something which I'm sure happens in a lot of sports and now you are telling me it happened to Benn because he was WEAK?. The guy fights and beats Barkley, Eubank II(Benn should of got the nod, even Eubank admits that), Dewitt and McClellan and you are now telling me his weak? because a fighter gets stopped doesnt mean they are weak, it could just mean they fought a better fighter. Are Hearns and Duran weak according to your logic as well?

How would Collins beat Benn in his prime exactly? He boxing skills were never that good and he was a "light" puncher

Tony Thornton was a decent fighter , maybe not a top 20 all time MW
(oops , I forgot , you don't do lists) , but a durable quality opponent during his prime.
Tony Thornton was a full time post man that boxed on the side, his moniker was "the punching Postman" for crying out loud
Doing the Boxrec thing:
Doug DeWitt L
Steve Collins L
Merqui Sosa W
Chris Eubank L
James Toney L
Roy Jones Jr L
final record: 37-7-1, never won a legit belt
1-5 against the best opponents he ever faced

I meant McCallum possibly caused a significant part of the damage done to Watson and Collins
No he didnt. It was the way Watsons head hit the lower rope, that caused the blood clot during the Watson-Eubank II fight, stop quoting other peoples posts

I did watch McCallum-Collins , and McCallum did beat him in the beginning , what happened later in the fight does not take a lot from the damage he took early in the fight.
Stop
McCallum at that point in his career simply didn't have the stamina to outwork his younger, naturally bigger opponents. So what he would try and do is too slow the pace down and outbox his younger opponent, which he did against Collins. he tired from round 6 onwards, which is why Collins was able to come back into the fight. It was Collins constant pressure and workrate that bothered McCallum during the last half of that fight. Collins never took a bad beating in that fight Or maybe it was the imaginary beating he took which gave Collins imaginary brain damage during a imaginary sparring session in 1999?

Toney616
07-15-2010, 12:24 PM
That poster also provided me with a link to that source which is now lost because of BS's and ESB's searching policy , try contacting lucatoni008 or something , he is that poster .
But I think he too has posted more than 500 posts since then.
Shame on you for not knowing that and even doubting my claims for not the first time.
Great, no source, cant find it, but I should believe it because you said another imaginary poster said it? Ok then:puppy_dog
I know you are lying anyway it was the Weebler who said that he was sparring with Eastman when he had his IMAGINARY blackout and he never posted up any link either

How about this, if you cant back up your dubious claims then don't mention them

As I wrote , if he won against Calzaghe he was supposed to get Jones ,
I think it happened during his preparations to fight Calzaghe at 1997 ,
where did I claim it was 1999 , and what made you think I did ?
And why do you think Collins retired at a mere 33 ?
Steve Collins, the World Boxing Organisation super-middle-weight champion, yesterday announced his retirement from boxing. The Irishman, who had pulled out of his title defence against Joe Calzaghe which was due to take place in Sheffield on Saturday week, made the announcement at the British Boxing Awards ceremony in Bloomsbury, central London.

Collins, accepting the award for Best Overseas Boxer, said: "I don't have the motivation that I once had.

"My only way to carry on was to fight Roy Jones, the WBC [World Boxing Council] light heavyweight champion, but as there is no chance of that happening now, the only route I have is to retire.

"The fight that would have kept me in boxing was against Roy Jones. But he has ducked me for two years, even though Frank Warren, my promoter, did everything to make it happen."
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/boxing-collins-announces-his-retirement-1233703.html
Does this sound like his retiring due to lack of motivation or imaginary brain damage?

Roy Jones moved up to lhw and fought Mike McCallum in 1996-11-22 for the interm wbc belt
Collins was scheduled to fight Calzaghe for the wbo smw in 1997-10-11
How does Collins defending his wbo smw put him in a positon to fight Jones at lhw exactly?

So maybe it was then. But I did not mention any year prior to this current post of yours.
The only time there was any serious discussion for a fight was in 1999, not 1997. It was in 1999 that Levin was given the go ahead to make the fight happen

Again , Shame on you for not knowing such a fact
Its a fact because an imaginary poster said it was?:thinking:

frankenfrank
07-18-2010, 01:52 AM
What are you going on about? He twisted his ankle, something which I'm sure happens in a lot of sports and now you are telling me it happened to Benn because he was WEAK?. The guy fights and beats Barkley, Eubank II(Benn should of got the nod, even Eubank admits that), Dewitt and McClellan and you are now telling me his weak? because a fighter gets stopped doesnt mean they are weak, it could just mean they fought a better fighter. Are Hearns and Duran weak according to your logic as well?

If you watched the McClellan fight you would have known the corrupt referee had a lot to do with Benn's ability to survive the early onslaught and same for Benn's holding and hitting behind the head .

SBleeder
07-18-2010, 07:48 AM
I thought I'd get more heat for Ricardo Lopez than for anything else.


On a side note, I hate being in the red...

Toney616
07-20-2010, 04:52 PM
If you watched the McClellan fight you would have known the corrupt referee had a lot to do with Benn's ability to survive the early onslaught and same for Benn's holding and hitting behind the head .
The ref was incompetent, not corrupt. Benn tainted the win with his rabbit punching (which he did in a lot of his fights- Eubank II comes to mind). Even if he didnt foul in that fight then the fight would of played out the same way anyway. Its still a legit win for Benn

frankenfrank
07-21-2010, 06:00 AM
The ref was incompetent, not corrupt. Benn tainted the win with his rabbit punching (which he did in a lot of his fights- Eubank II comes to mind). Even if he didnt foul in that fight then the fight would of played out the same way anyway. Its still a legit win for Benn

No. You are biased if you claim this claim after admitting both facts about the ref and Benn's fouling.

Toney616
07-21-2010, 03:57 PM
No. You are biased if you claim this claim after admitting both facts about the ref and Benn's fouling.
If you are going to accuse someone of being corrupt then you are going to have to present some form of proof. You cant just say that guy did a bad job so he must on been "on the take". How many other fights which Asaro refereed in have you seen?

As for Benn's fouling, yes he fouled, but you are making it out as if it was consistent fouling used as a form of strategy. As I said before the fight plays out the same way without the fouling (with Asaro as the ref)

frankenfrank
07-22-2010, 05:23 AM
If you are going to accuse someone of being corrupt then you are going to have to present some form of proof. You cant just say that guy did a bad job so he must on been "on the take". How many other fights which Asaro refereed in have you seen?

As for Benn's fouling, yes he fouled, but you are making it out as if it was consistent fouling used as a form of strategy. As I said before the fight plays out the same way without the fouling (with Asaro as the ref)

I never read anything about that ref getting extra money for doing a bad job if this is what you mean .
I don't think I watched any more fights with him . This guy should have been banned from refereeing after that fight.
With a fair refereeing McClellan would have stopped Benn early , and fouling don't have to be consistent to make a critical effect.

Toney616
07-23-2010, 10:25 AM
With a fair refereeing McClellan would have stopped Benn early , and fouling don't have to be consistent to make a critical effect.
Out of interest tell me how the fouling (I counted around 5) made a critical effect to the course of that fight?

Vadrigar.
07-23-2010, 11:15 AM
Since people didn't care for the pictures, I'll simply post my list. I'll follow up later with some explanations.

1. Ray Robinson

2. Muhammad Ali

3. Harry Greb

4. Sam Langford

5. Henry Armstrong

6. Willie Pep

7. Carlos Monzon

8. Ricardo Lopez

9. Joe Louis

10. Archie Moore

11. Pernell Whitaker

12. Benny Leonard

13. Eder Jofre

14. Joe Gans

15. Ray Leonard

16. Roberto Duran

17. Rocky Marciano

18. Dick Tiger

19. Ezzard Charles

20. Tony Canzoneri

21. Bob Fitzsimmons

22. Jimmy Wilde

23. Wilfredo Gomez

24. George Foreman

25. Julio Ceasar Chavez Sr.

26. Gene Tunney

27. Marvin Hagler.

28. Vicente Saldivar

29. Panama Al Brown

30. Sandy Saddler

31. Jimmy McLarin

32. Joe Calzaghe

33. Gilberto Roman

34. Alexis Arguello

35. Barney Ross

36. Larry Holmes

37. Ike Williams

38. Thomas Hearns

39. Young Corbett III

40. Jack Dempsey

41. Emile Griffith

42. Roy Jones, Jr.

43. Rosendo Alvarez

44. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

45. Duilio Loi

46. Abe Attell

47. Tommy Ryan

48. Mickey Walker

49. Sonny Liston

50. Manny Pacquiao

Thanks for the top 50. I've got quite a few questions to ask but what's your reasoning for putting Whitaker ahead of Duran & Ray Leonard? :)

Ragnar Lothbrok
07-24-2010, 04:54 PM
59. Salvador Sanchez
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/e/e6/Salvador_Sanchez.jpg


57. Chris John
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss218/equal-life/Chris-John.jpg





59. Salvador Sanchez



57. Chris John



http://www.slackers.co.za/uploads/20080526/thread-fail-stamp.gif


:nonono:


The entire list is a complete and utter joke.



red k given.

frankenfrank
07-25-2010, 12:38 AM
Out of interest tell me how the fouling (I counted around 5) made a critical effect to the course of that fight?

You know Jirov ended Mesi's career with rabbit punches.
But I don't blame it only on the fouling , the ref did his share by ignoring Benn's fouling , warning McClellan and giving Benn a break exactly when he needed it , McClellan was already damaged prior to the fight , I know , but Benn's fouling and the referee got the job done.

qwerty07
07-25-2010, 09:08 AM
LMFAO Floyd ahead of Manny Pacquiao. Funny stuff!!!

Toney616
07-25-2010, 04:46 PM
But I don't blame it only on the fouling , the ref did his share by ignoring Benn's fouling.
Benn commited around 5 fouls (during 10 rounds) in that fight, it was during the clinches that he rabbit punched McClellan. It was the bombs he was landing on McClellans chin that did the damage, although it of course could be argued that those rabbit punches didnt help. Either way without those fouls the fight would of still played out the same way (with the same ref)

, warning McClellan and giving Benn a break exactly when he needed it ,
.
Benn got at best around 5 seconds rest, he easily could of got that by clinching McClellan, which he was doing during that round

McClellan was already damaged prior to the fight , I know , but Benn's fouling and the referee got the job done.
It wasnt Benn fouls that caused the damge to McClellan, it was the power punches he was landing at will on McClellans chin during the course of that fight. Also you cannot know that the ref saved Benn, the guy was a pro how do you know he wouldnt of just clinched (like he was during that round) after he was knocked through the ropes until he cleared his head?

For example Jones had a war with McClellan and finished on his feet, McClellan was also beaten by two guys who didnt have much pro experience either, how can you be so certain that Benn couldnt of survived the first round without the refs help?

frankenfrank
07-26-2010, 12:41 AM
Benn commited around 5 fouls (during 10 rounds) in that fight, it was during the clinches that he rabbit punched McClellan. It was the bombs he was landing on McClellans chin that did the damage, although it of course could be argued that those rabbit punches didnt help. Either way without those fouls the fight would of still played out the same way (with the same ref)

They were the bombs that Julian Jackson landed in ther first fight combined with Benn's fouling and only then his punches that did the damage.

Benn got at best around 5 seconds rest, he easily could of got that by clinching McClellan, which he was doing during that round
It wasnt Benn fouls that caused the damge to McClellan, it was the power punches he was landing at will on McClellans chin during the course of that fight. Also you cannot know that the ref saved Benn, the guy was a pro how do you know he wouldnt of just clinched (like he was during that round) after he was knocked through the ropes until he cleared his head?

Those were very crucial 5 seconds which Benn could not have clinched in.
McClellan was about to finish him when the referee separated them and gave Benn the most helpful recovery time he (or anyone else) has ever got.
Don't make Benn something he wasn't . Benn was also stopped by Watson and Eubanks before it and twice by Collins after it and clinching did not save him , it was the referee with both of his asymmetric refereeing of fouls and his separating them exactly when Benn needed a break the most.



For example Jones had a war with McClellan and finished on his feet, McClellan was also beaten by two guys who didnt have much pro experience either, how can you be so certain that Benn couldnt of survived the first round without the refs help?
Jones had how many rounds to survive McClellan ?
No . Benn won primarily because of that referee and then because of Julian Jackson.
How do you know McClellan was ever beaten ? from boxrec ?
All boxrec tells is a close decision in one of these fights.

Toney616
07-26-2010, 04:40 PM
They were the bombs that Julian Jackson landed in ther first fight combined with Benn's fouling and only then his punches that did the damage.
Wrong
Let me guess you are quoting unverified internet rumours again, right? How about a source to back this stuff up? Benn commited one foul in the second round, which was a rabbit punch during one of the many clinches in that round. It was during that round that the damage to McClellan was done

Those were very crucial 5 seconds which Benn could not have clinched in.McClellan was about to finish him when the referee separated them and gave Benn the most helpful recovery time he (or anyone else) has ever got.
Stop
The only way you can know that is if you had a crystal ball which allowed you to see alternative time lines, there is no way you can know that Benn couldn't of got through that round. For example there were plenty of other times which Benn was badly hurt and he survived by clinching. Also Benn was dropped again in round 8 and he survived without the ref saving him, so that also hurts your argument

Don't make Benn something he wasn't . Benn was also stopped by Watson and Eubanks before it and twice by Collins after it and clinching did not save him

Stop boxrecing
Watson: If you watch that fight you would know that Benn, was basically counted out due to exhaustion during the Watson fight. He was sitting on the floor fully conscious when he got counted out think Hagler-Mugabi

Eubank I:It was his right eye which was closed during the Eubank fight, which stopped him from seeing alot of Eubanks bombs which was the reason he got stopped during that fight, Steele had seen enough so he decided to stop it. Benn had got through a lot of rough patches during that fight by clinching

Collins I: he threw a right hook, which missed and he twisted his ankle which is why that fight was stopped

Collins II: He was a shot fighter taking too much punishment so his team threw in the towel

, it was the referee with both of his asymmetric refereeing of fouls and his separating them exactly when Benn needed a break the most.
Dude, lol
He was saved by the ref once, in that fight which was during the first round. Benn got warnings for his fouls but never had a point docked (which he should of got) Interesting that you never talk about McClellans fouls during that fight either

Jones had how many rounds to survive McClellan ?
The fact that Jones who doesnt have the best chin got through the first round is all you need to know

No . Benn won primarily because of that referee and then because of Julian Jackson.
And your proof is?
The fact that Benn was still there in the 10th round, hurts your case because he survived numerous difficult moments later in that fight by clinching

How do you know McClellan was ever beaten ? from boxrec ?
All boxrec tells is a close decision in one of these fights.
Nope
I read a book which covers McClellan's life and his conversations with his trainer Stanley Johnson during the breaks between rounds, in the Benn fight. I dont need Boxrec to find out about fighters. Which is why I keep saying the fight plays out the same way without Benn's fouls. Obviously I know something which Im not telling you. I have also given you ample time to go into detail about that fight, which I have noticed you haven't. Be honest, you havent watched that fight either have you?

frankenfrank
07-27-2010, 02:45 AM
Wrong
Let me guess you are quoting unverified internet rumours again, right? How about a source to back this stuff up? Benn commited one foul in the second round, which was a rabbit punch during one of the many clinches in that round. It was during that round that the damage to McClellan was done

And in your books you never read about McClellan complains about headaches after the first Jackson fight and before the Benn fight.
Not surprising.

Stop
The only way you can know that is if you had a crystal ball which allowed you to see alternative time lines, there is no way you can know that Benn couldn't of got through that round. For example there were plenty of other times which Benn was badly hurt and he survived by clinching. Also Benn was dropped again in round 8 and he survived without the ref saving him, so that also hurts your argument

Benn was hurt worse in the first round against McClellan.
Lucky him he had that referee.

Stop boxrecing
Watson: If you watch that fight you would know that Benn, was basically counted out due to exhaustion during the Watson fight. He was sitting on the floor fully conscious when he got counted out think Hagler-Mugabi

Benn was too hurt to get up , conscious maybe , but clear he was not.

Eubank I:It was his right eye which was closed during the Eubank fight, which stopped him from seeing alot of Eubanks bombs which was the reason he got stopped during that fight, Steele had seen enough so he decided to stop it. Benn had got through a lot of rough patches during that fight by clinching

But McClellan still hurt him (even) worse in their first round.

Collins I: he threw a right hook, which missed and he twisted his ankle which is why that fight was stopped

Collins II: He was a shot fighter taking too much punishment so his team threw in the towel

Wonder why he was shot , while Collins whom is his age and went through rough fights also was not shot then ?

Dude, lol
He was saved by the ref once, in that fight which was during the first round. Benn got warnings for his fouls but never had a point docked (which he should of got) Interesting that you never talk about McClellans fouls during that fight either

McClellan was deducted a point , wasn't he ? which is another pressing and discouraging thing.

The fact that Jones who doesnt have the best chin got through the first round is all you need to know

And your proof is?
The fact that Benn was still there in the 10th round, hurts your case because he survived numerous difficult moments later in that fight by clinching

Nope
I read a book which covers McClellan's life and his conversations with his trainer Stanley Johnson during the breaks between rounds, in the Benn fight. I dont need Boxrec to find out about fighters. Which is why I keep saying the fight plays out the same way without Benn's fouls. Obviously I know something which Im not telling you. I have also given you ample time to go into detail about that fight, which I have noticed you haven't. Be honest, you havent watched that fight either have you?

So keep don't telling. Just STFU and GTFOH.

Toney616
07-27-2010, 03:21 PM
And in your books you never read about McClellan complains about headaches after the first Jackson fight and before the Benn fight.
Not surprising.
How about a link/source to verify this?

Benn was hurt worse in the first round against McClellan.
Lucky him he had that referee.
How can you know this?
Even if it was true, it may have to do with the fact that McClellan had continued to hit him even though he was semi conscious and falling through the ropes. Which im sure is techincally a foul also

Benn was too hurt to get up , conscious maybe , but clear he was not.
He was dropped by a jab, and was sitting on the mat as the ref was countng

But McClellan still hurt him (even) worse in their first round..
See point above

Wonder why he was shot , while Collins whom is his age and went through rough fights also was not shot then ?
Dude, lol
We have gone over this already

Or to put it another way for the forum troll, boxers primes cannot be the same due to the fact that boxing is a attrition sport, with the rates of attrition being different for different fighters. Collins never stood in the ring with a iron jawed banger like McClellan and go through hell for 10 rounds, so stop with all of this nonsense. Neither did Collins enter any fights with a shadow on his brain

McClellan was deducted a point , wasn't he ? which is another pressing and discouraging thing.
What are you talking about? He was never docked a point for anything

So keep don't telling. Just STFU and GTFOH.
I have come across all kinds of posters during my time in boxing forums but I never came across a poster like you, who doesnt watch fights rather you use two things as alternatives:

1: Boxrec stats
2:Unverified internet rumours

Im done with you, welcome to my ignore list