View Full Version : Poet's top 20 P4P


'Sugar' Freddi
07-13-2010, 12:18 AM
This is not really a thread to flame you, Poet, but I just don't understand how you couldn't put fighters like Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Harry Greb, and Archie Moore on your top 20?

This is a list you posted in another thread:

01. Ray Robinson
02. Bob Fitzsimmons
03. Sam Langford
04. Roberto Duran
05. Henry Armstrong
06. Alexis Arguello
07. Benny Leonard
08. Ray Leonard
09. Pernell Whitaker
10. Ezzard Charles
11. Joe Gans
12. Roy Jones
13. Pascual Perez
14. Eder Jofre
15. Miguel Canto
16. Charley Burley
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Willie Pepp
20. Ricardo Lopez

DiLLiNGER
07-13-2010, 12:30 AM
It's his list he can put down who ever he feels like,doesn't mean it's a good list it's just his thought.

Where's ted the kid lewis ?

considerthis
07-13-2010, 01:11 AM
i'm assuming micky ward would be at #21

sonnyboyx2
07-13-2010, 02:42 AM
is it poets personal Top 20 favorite fighters? or maybe his opinion of the Top 20 greatest fighters which he is entitled to his opinion of... all lists are that persons opinion and they should not be ridiculed if others do not agree with their choice... Poets list above is a very good list and plenty of thought has gone into it, if he leaves out certain fighters i am sure he has his own reasons why he left them out but it is his choice to do so.

JAB5239
07-13-2010, 02:54 AM
This is not really a thread to flame you, Poet, but I just don't understand how you couldn't put fighters like Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Harry Greb, and Archie Moore on your top 20?

This is a list you posted in another thread:

01. Ray Robinson
02. Bob Fitzsimmons
03. Sam Langford
04. Roberto Duran
05. Henry Armstrong
06. Alexis Arguello
07. Benny Leonard
08. Ray Leonard
09. Pernell Whitaker
10. Ezzard Charles
11. Joe Gans
12. Roy Jones
13. Pascual Perez
14. Eder Jofre
15. Miguel Canto
16. Charley Burley
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Willie Pepp
20. Ricardo Lopez

I think everyone's personal p4p list constantly changes with the addition of more knowledge regarding many fighter. Very subjective. That said, mine would include the 4 fighters you mentioned here, but to each his own.

Stone Roses!
07-13-2010, 04:49 AM
This is not really a thread to flame you, Poet, but I just don't understand how you couldn't put fighters like Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Harry Greb, and Archie Moore on your top 20?

This is a list you posted in another thread:

01. Ray Robinson
02. Bob Fitzsimmons
03. Sam Langford
04. Roberto Duran
05. Henry Armstrong
06. Alexis Arguello
07. Benny Leonard
08. Ray Leonard
09. Pernell Whitaker
10. Ezzard Charles
11. Joe Gans
12. Roy Jones
13. Pascual Perez
14. Eder Jofre
15. Miguel Canto
16. Charley Burley
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Willie Pepp
20. Ricardo Lopez
Interesting list.

LMAO

frankenfrank
07-13-2010, 06:08 AM
This is not really a thread to flame you, Poet, but I just don't understand how you couldn't put fighters like Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Harry Greb, and Archie Moore on your top 20?

This is a list you posted in another thread:

01. Ray Robinson
02. Bob Fitzsimmons
03. Sam Langford
04. Roberto Duran
05. Henry Armstrong
06. Alexis Arguello
07. Benny Leonard
08. Ray Leonard
09. Pernell Whitaker
10. Ezzard Charles
11. Joe Gans
12. Roy Jones
13. Pascual Perez
14. Eder Jofre
15. Miguel Canto
16. Charley Burley
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Willie Pepp
20. Ricardo Lopez

Louis and Ali proved no more P4P ability than Wlad did , and he is far from any
top 50 P4P list of mine also.

lets try my P4P list (first time I try a top 20 P4P , and I did not think a lot
about it as opposed to my SHW list , this one may probably need more corrections) :
1. Sam Langford
2. Mike Tyson
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Walcott
5. Roberto Duran
6. Ray Leonard
7. Chris Byrd
8. Orlin Norris
9. Young Peter Jackson
10. James Toney

11. Ray Robinson
12. Charley Burley
13. Marlon Starling
14. Jose Luis Lopez
15. Ike Quartery
16. Manny Pacquiao
17. Harry Greb
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Hector Camacho
20. Ezzard Charles

21. Archie Moore
22. Rocky Marciano
23. Jorge Fernando Castro
24. Simon Brown
25. David Tua
26. Doug Jones
27. Joe Frazier
28. Muhammad Qawi
29. Salvador Sanchez
30. Michael Spinks


31. Juan Manuel Marquez
32. Evander Holyfield
33. Julio Cesar Chavez
34. Oscar Delahoya
35. Vinny Pazienza
36. Arnold Cream
37. Ronald Wright
38. Shane Mosley
39. Floyd Mayweather
40. Pernell Whitaker

41. Carmen Basilio
42. Vince Phillips
43. Meldrick Taylor
44. Miguel Cotto
45. Ricky Hatton
46. Kotsya Tszyu

Yes , I know there is a number of old timers I forgot to boxrec enough whom may deserve to be in the top 25 , they may be added in the future , as well as possible incorrectness in the internal ordering of this list.

TBear
07-13-2010, 06:40 AM
All kinding aside(regarding previous post) Joe Louis and Ali Belong in the top ten of any all time p4p list.

Vadrigar.
07-13-2010, 06:45 AM
IMO ALi and Louis belong in p4p lists. But others may differ.

Stone Roses!
07-13-2010, 06:58 AM
Louis and Ali proved no more P4P ability than Wlad did , and he is far from any
top 50 P4P list of mine also.

lets try my P4P list (first time I try a top 20 P4P , and I did not think a lot
about it as opposed to my SHW list , this one may probably need more corrections) :
1. Sam Langford
2. Mike Tyson
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Walcott
5. Roberto Duran
6. Ray Leonard
7. Chris Byrd
8. Orlin Norris
9. Young Peter Jackson
10. James Toney

11. Ray Robinson
12. Charley Burley
13. Marlon Starling
14. Jose Luis Lopez
15. Ike Quartery
16. Manny Pacquiao
17. Harry Greb
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Hector Camacho
20. Ezzard Charles

21. Archie Moore
22. Rocky Marciano
23. Jorge Fernando Castro
24. Simon Brown
25. David Tua
26. Doug Jones
27. Joe Frazier
28. Muhammad Qawi
29. Salvador Sanchez
30. Michael Spinks


31. Juan Manuel Marquez
32. Evander Holyfield
33. Julio Cesar Chavez
34. Oscar Delahoya
35. Vinny Pazienza
36. Arnold Cream
37. Ronald Wright
38. Shane Mosley
39. Floyd Mayweather
40. Pernell Whitaker

41. Carmen Basilio
42. Vince Phillips
43. Meldrick Taylor
44. Miguel Cotto
45. Ricky Hatton
46. Kotsya Tszyu

Yes , I know there is a number of old timers I forgot to boxrec enough whom may deserve to be in the top 25 , they may be added in the future , as well as possible incorrectness in the internal ordering of this list.
:lol1: :rofl:

HAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

:rofl: :rofl:

r.burgundy
07-13-2010, 08:21 AM
arguello @ 6,hagler @ 17,benny leonard #7 lmao.and this guy has the nerve to ? smebodys boxing knowledge.wow.thats rich

r.burgundy
07-13-2010, 08:26 AM
Louis and Ali proved no more P4P ability than Wlad did , and he is far from any
top 50 P4P list of mine also.

lets try my P4P list (first time I try a top 20 P4P , and I did not think a lot
about it as opposed to my SHW list , this one may probably need more corrections) :
1. Sam Langford
2. Mike Tyson
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Walcott
5. Roberto Duran
6. Ray Leonard
7. Chris Byrd
8. Orlin Norris
9. Young Peter Jackson
10. James Toney

11. Ray Robinson
12. Charley Burley
13. Marlon Starling
14. Jose Luis Lopez
15. Ike Quartery
16. Manny Pacquiao
17. Harry Greb
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Hector Camacho
20. Ezzard Charles

21. Archie Moore
22. Rocky Marciano
23. Jorge Fernando Castro
24. Simon Brown
25. David Tua
26. Doug Jones
27. Joe Frazier
28. Muhammad Qawi
29. Salvador Sanchez
30. Michael Spinks


31. Juan Manuel Marquez
32. Evander Holyfield
33. Julio Cesar Chavez
34. Oscar Delahoya
35. Vinny Pazienza
36. Arnold Cream
37. Ronald Wright
38. Shane Mosley
39. Floyd Mayweather
40. Pernell Whitaker

41. Carmen Basilio
42. Vince Phillips
43. Meldrick Taylor
44. Miguel Cotto
45. Ricky Hatton
46. Kotsya Tszyu

Yes , I know there is a number of old timers I forgot to boxrec enough whom may deserve to be in the top 25 , they may be added in the future , as well as possible incorrectness in the internal ordering of this list.

franken i have got ask,how in the heck did you manage to fit chris byrd and orlin norris ahead of ray robinson,and what are jorge castro and simon brown doing ahead of anybody

Stone Roses!
07-13-2010, 08:42 AM
I'm sorry but I have to come back and laugh at frankenfranks P4P list.

No disrespect Mate but Doug Jones at #26???

HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHHA HAHAHHA

:rofl: :lol1: :rofl:

Oh man that **** had me on the floor.

frankenfrank
07-13-2010, 08:51 AM
franken i have got ask,how in the heck did you manage to fit chris byrd and orlin norris ahead of ray robinson,and what are jorge castro and simon brown doing ahead of anybody

I am not absolutely sure about it , but :
Chris Byrd (6" , natural 175lber) fought :
Vitali Klitschko , Wladimir Klitschko (*2) , Jameel McCline , Andrezj Golota ,
Ike Ibeabuchi , David Tua , Ross Puritty , Alexander Povetkin as well as other dangerous opponents.

Orlin Norris (5'9" , natural 200lber) fought :
Vitali Klitschko , Henry Akiwande , Tony Tucker (*2) , Andrezj Golota , Oliver McCall , Brian Nielsen , Jesse Fergusson (and don't tell me he was not an upset able opponent) as well as other much bigger than himself and quality opponents.


Were there any fighters since Sam Langford , whom faced such a huge physical adversity and disadvantage so frequently ?

I say no. No one at all (since Langford) . Not even James Toney.
And if you consider the outcomes of their fights against that monsterous opposition , you may find they actually did quite good , these are the best examples of P4P fighters. And no disrespect to Robinson , but he did enjoy size advantage over most of his opponents and was stopped by Joey Maxim whom was bigger than himself , but much less bigger than Tucker , Akiwande , Vitali and even Golota were compared to Norris. Robinson also went 1:1 in split decisions against a smaller former welterweight in Carmen Basilio .

Simon Brown and Castro are great examples of P4P greatness if you just read their records carefully enough.
These are 4 great P4P fighters , what can you claim against it ?

Stone Roses!
07-13-2010, 08:53 AM
was stopped by Joey Maxim whom was bigger than himself

Joey Maxim was getting ****ing schooled in that fight. Maxim didn't stop Robinson, the heat did.

Ziggy Stardust
07-13-2010, 09:10 AM
This is not really a thread to flame you, Poet, but I just don't understand how you couldn't put fighters like Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Harry Greb, and Archie Moore on your top 20?

This is a list you posted in another thread:

01. Ray Robinson
02. Bob Fitzsimmons
03. Sam Langford
04. Roberto Duran
05. Henry Armstrong
06. Alexis Arguello
07. Benny Leonard
08. Ray Leonard
09. Pernell Whitaker
10. Ezzard Charles
11. Joe Gans
12. Roy Jones
13. Pascual Perez
14. Eder Jofre
15. Miguel Canto
16. Charley Burley
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Willie Pepp
20. Ricardo Lopez

The explanation is quite simple: As a rule I never put Heavyweights on p4p lists :)

Poet

The Iron Man
07-13-2010, 09:10 AM
Poet has said it before, he doesn't put heavyweights in his p4p lists. Not 100% sure of the reason i think its because they have enough recognition already? don't quote me on that tho!

EDIT: Looks like he posted at exactly the same time...

Ziggy Stardust
07-13-2010, 09:23 AM
arguello @ 6,hagler @ 17,benny leonard #7 lmao.and this guy has the nerve to ? smebodys boxing knowledge.wow.thats rich

Let's see yours: I need a laugh :hahahaha9:

PS. Watch him copy and paste the Ring's current p4p list :rofl9:

Poet

Vadrigar.
07-13-2010, 09:28 AM
The explanation is quite simple: As a rule I never put Heavyweights on p4p lists :)

Poet

I was thinking this too. Well thanks for clearing that up :fing02:

Sam Donald
07-13-2010, 10:13 AM
Louis and Ali proved no more P4P ability than Wlad did , and he is far from any
top 50 P4P list of mine also.

lets try my P4P list (first time I try a top 20 P4P , and I did not think a lot
about it as opposed to my SHW list , this one may probably need more corrections) :
1. Sam Langford
2. Mike Tyson
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Walcott
5. Roberto Duran
6. Ray Leonard
7. Chris Byrd
8. Orlin Norris
9. Young Peter Jackson
10. James Toney

11. Ray Robinson
12. Charley Burley
13. Marlon Starling
14. Jose Luis Lopez
15. Ike Quartery
16. Manny Pacquiao
17. Harry Greb
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Hector Camacho
20. Ezzard Charles

21. Archie Moore
22. Rocky Marciano
23. Jorge Fernando Castro
24. Simon Brown
25. David Tua
26. Doug Jones
27. Joe Frazier
28. Muhammad Qawi
29. Salvador Sanchez
30. Michael Spinks


31. Juan Manuel Marquez
32. Evander Holyfield
33. Julio Cesar Chavez
34. Oscar Delahoya
35. Vinny Pazienza
36. Arnold Cream
37. Ronald Wright
38. Shane Mosley
39. Floyd Mayweather
40. Pernell Whitaker

41. Carmen Basilio
42. Vince Phillips
43. Meldrick Taylor
44. Miguel Cotto
45. Ricky Hatton
46. Kotsya Tszyu

Yes , I know there is a number of old timers I forgot to boxrec enough whom may deserve to be in the top 25 , they may be added in the future , as well as possible incorrectness in the internal ordering of this list.

Is this a JOKE?

considerthis
07-13-2010, 10:46 AM
Joey Maxim was getting ****ing schooled in that fight. Maxim didn't stop Robinson, the heat did.

didn't they go through two referees in that fight?

GameGod
07-13-2010, 10:50 AM
Mine would include three of the four you mentioned in my Pound-for-Pound Top 20 (omitting Archie Moore), but Poet's list looks solid. To a certain extent, it's a matter of personal opinion, and this list easily falls into the "acceptable" category. The only thing I'm truly surprised by is the exclusion of Ali, but even then the list is still a good one.

frankenfrank
07-13-2010, 12:16 PM
Joey Maxim was getting ****ing schooled in that fight. Maxim didn't stop Robinson, the heat did.
:Flush:
I love that excuse . Like maxim fought wearing a refrigerator suit.

frankenfrank
07-13-2010, 12:17 PM
Is this a JOKE?

no
The bolds and this explanation allowed me to post a message long enough

Stone Roses!
07-13-2010, 01:54 PM
:Flush:
I love that excuse . Like maxim fought wearing a refrigerator suit.

Maxim was the naturally bigger man his body was more capable of dealing with the searing heat. Not to mention he has a flat footed style which doesn't exert as much energy as Robinson's.

Correction in your choice of words also. It is not an excuse, but a reason. A legitimate one at that.

Your knowledge of Boxing is pitiful.

BattlingNelson
07-13-2010, 02:26 PM
The explanation is quite simple: As a rule I never put Heavyweights on p4p lists :)

Poet
Neither Moore nor Greb should be classified as HW's while an argument could be made for Langford being a heavy.

BattlingNelson
07-13-2010, 02:28 PM
Maxim was the naturally bigger man his body was more capable of dealing with the searing heat. Not to mention he has a flat footed style which doesn't exert as much energy as Robinson's.

Correction in your choice of words also. It is not an excuse, but a reason. A legitimate one at that.

Your knowledge of Boxing is pitiful.
It's not a legit excuse IMO. It can never be Maxims fault that Robinson paced himself poorly.

Stone Roses!
07-13-2010, 03:04 PM
It's not a legit excuse IMO. It can never be Maxims fault that Robinson paced himself poorly.
Sure, You can make the case Robinson should have totally changed his style to acclimate to the conditions but to say Maxim stopped Robinson is downright stupid.

If that fight happened any other day the outcome would've been Robinson by a wide UD.

BattlingNelson
07-13-2010, 03:12 PM
Sure, You can make the case Robinson should have totally changed his style to acclimate to the conditions but to say Maxim stopped Robinson is downright stupid.

If that fight happened any other day the outcome would've been Robinson by a wide UD.
But it wasn't any other day was it?

Wouldas, couldas and shouldas doesn't count.

Stone Roses!
07-13-2010, 03:19 PM
But it wasn't any other day was it?

Wouldas, couldas and shouldas doesn't count.
No they don't count.

Maxim got outboxed. FACT.

Heat stopped Robinson. FACT.

BattlingNelson
07-13-2010, 03:22 PM
No they don't count.

Maxim got outboxed. FACT.

Heat stopped Robinson. FACT.
Ok.

Are there any other fights we should know about where it was the elements and not the opponent that caused an L on a fighters record IYO?

Stone Roses!
07-13-2010, 03:26 PM
Ok.

Are there any other fights we should know about where it was the elements and not the opponent that caused an L on a fighters record IYO?
Yeah.

Pacquiao's socks ruined his footwork in Morales 1.

BattlingNelson
07-13-2010, 03:30 PM
Yeah.

Pacquiao's socks ruined his footwork in Morales 1.
Who benefitted most from the heat in the thrilla in Manilla? The boxer or the flatfooted brawler?

Stone Roses!
07-13-2010, 03:31 PM
Who benefitted most from the heat in the thrilla in Manilla? The boxer or the flatfooted brawler?
Neither. They were both a mess.

GJC
07-13-2010, 05:04 PM
Louis and Ali proved no more P4P ability than Wlad did , and he is far from any
top 50 P4P list of mine also.

lets try my P4P list (first time I try a top 20 P4P , and I did not think a lot
about it as opposed to my SHW list , this one may probably need more corrections) :
1. Sam Langford
2. Mike Tyson
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Walcott
5. Roberto Duran
6. Ray Leonard
7. Chris Byrd
8. Orlin Norris
9. Young Peter Jackson
10. James Toney

11. Ray Robinson
12. Charley Burley
13. Marlon Starling
14. Jose Luis Lopez
15. Ike Quartery
16. Manny Pacquiao
17. Harry Greb
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Hector Camacho
20. Ezzard Charles

21. Archie Moore
22. Rocky Marciano
23. Jorge Fernando Castro
24. Simon Brown
25. David Tua
26. Doug Jones
27. Joe Frazier
28. Muhammad Qawi
29. Salvador Sanchez
30. Michael Spinks


31. Juan Manuel Marquez
32. Evander Holyfield
33. Julio Cesar Chavez
34. Oscar Delahoya
35. Vinny Pazienza
36. Arnold Cream
37. Ronald Wright
38. Shane Mosley
39. Floyd Mayweather
40. Pernell Whitaker

41. Carmen Basilio
42. Vince Phillips
43. Meldrick Taylor
44. Miguel Cotto
45. Ricky Hatton
46. Kotsya Tszyu

Yes , I know there is a number of old timers I forgot to boxrec enough whom may deserve to be in the top 25 , they may be added in the future , as well as possible incorrectness in the internal ordering of this list.
Well all lists are personal and wow is that one personal :)
At least you remembered Chris Byrd, Orlin Norris, Marlon Starling and Hector Camacho in your top 20 so so many people forget to

TBear
07-13-2010, 05:23 PM
The explanation is quite simple: As a rule I never put Heavyweights on p4p lists :)

Poet

Could I ask why?

frankenfrank
07-14-2010, 04:12 AM
Maxim was the naturally bigger man his body was more capable of dealing with the searing heat. Not to mention he has a flat footed style which doesn't exert as much energy as Robinson's.

Correction in your choice of words also. It is not an excuse, but a reason. A legitimate one at that.

Your knowledge of Boxing is pitiful.
Being a bigger man does not help to cool faster , on the contrary .
He had the better pacing which won him the fight.
Your knowledge of both boxing and the laws of physics is poor.
Go post a censored version of this post in the NSB to get a reply from the experts there , or even better , post it the limey lounge to get the best outcum :fing02:
It's not a legit excuse IMO. It can never be Maxims fault that Robinson paced himself poorly.
exactly. Robinson payed for his wrong pacing which was the cause for his lead on the scorecards , Foreman has a much better excuse for his "loss" against Ali : heat+purposefully loosened ropes.

Stone Roses!
07-14-2010, 04:34 AM
Being a bigger man does not help to cool faster , on the contrary .
He had the better pacing which won him the fight.
Your knowledge of both boxing and the laws of physics is poor.
Go post a censored version of this post in the NSB to get a reply from the experts there , or even better , post it the limey lounge to get the best outcum :fing02:

exactly. Robinson payed for his wrong pacing which was the cause for his lead on the scorecards , Foreman has a much better excuse for his "loss" against Ali : heat+purposefully loosened ropes.

:lol1: What's the matter. A little hurt cause people laughed at your pathetic excuse of a list?

Being the naturally bigger man fighting in searing heat gives your body the advantage over the smaller man. Nor, did you mention anywhere in your previous post that Robinson didn't pace himself.

Foreman has a much better excuse for his "loss" against Ali : heat

So was it the heat or the fact Foreman didn't 'pace himself'? Idiot. You contradicted yourself in the same post.

Also Dundee has stated on several occassions that he attempted to shorten the ropes the day before the fight because the ropes were too long for the 'small' ring. No need to lie buddy.

Heru
07-14-2010, 05:53 AM
is it poets personal Top 20 favorite fighters? or maybe his opinion of the Top 20 greatest fighters which he is entitled to his opinion of... all lists are that persons opinion and they should not be ridiculed if others do not agree with their choice... Poets list above is a very good list and plenty of thought has gone into it, if he leaves out certain fighters i am sure he has his own reasons why he left them out but it is his choice to do so.

I agree, they should not be ridiculed, but as soon as you make your list public it is subject to criticism (hopefully constructive). If you post a top ATG list, you should good reasoning on why you have a fighter where you do.

Having a top ATG list should not omit heavyweights though. There should be a separate ATG list per division and 1 that encompasses every division.

frankenfrank
07-14-2010, 07:32 AM
:lol1: What's the matter. A little hurt cause people laughed at your pathetic excuse of a list?

Being the naturally bigger man fighting in searing heat gives your body the advantage over the smaller man. Nor, did you mention anywhere in your previous post that Robinson didn't pace himself.



So was it the heat or the fact Foreman didn't 'pace himself'? Idiot. You contradicted yourself in the same post.

Also Dundee has stated on several occassions that he attempted to shorten the ropes the day before the fight because the ropes were too long for the 'small' ring. No need to lie buddy.
And the little homo keeps quoting partial sentences and replying to claims that were never raised ..
Go tell it to BB92 , I know you can't resist his [____] [____].

#1Assassin
07-14-2010, 09:07 AM
It's not a legit excuse IMO. It can never be Maxims fault that Robinson paced himself poorly.

its obvious the heat worked to maxims benefit, it sust common sense.

almost anytime one man is considerably stronger than the other the strong man takes the centre of the ring, not using alot of energy. meanwhile the other man moves around the ring to neutralize his strenght, using up more energy in the process.

maxim being much bigger than ray he already had an advantage, the heat made it an even bigger advantage. and considering how easily robinson was winning and how he never showed showed a inability to finish fights under normal circumstances, u gotta admitt the heat won maxim that fight.

BattlingNelson
07-14-2010, 11:26 AM
Being the naturally bigger man fighting in searing heat gives your body the advantage over the smaller man.
You present this as a fact. Do you have a source?

BattlingNelson
07-14-2010, 11:28 AM
its obvious the heat worked to maxims benefit, it sust common sense.

almost anytime one man is considerably stronger than the other the strong man takes the centre of the ring, not using alot of energy. meanwhile the other man moves around the ring to neutralize his strenght, using up more energy in the process.

maxim being much bigger than ray he already had an advantage, the heat made it an even bigger advantage. and considering how easily robinson was winning and how he never showed showed a inability to finish fights under normal circumstances, u gotta admitt the heat won maxim that fight.
Since Robinson was winning so easy he should have taken a little time off in a couple of rounds and then he would have been fine don't you think?

Toney616
07-14-2010, 05:05 PM
1. Sam Langford
2. Mike Tyson
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Walcott
5. Roberto Duran
6. Ray Leonard
7. Chris Byrd
8. Orlin Norris
9. Young Peter Jackson
10. James Toney

11. Ray Robinson
12. Charley Burley
13. Marlon Starling
14. Jose Luis Lopez
15. Ike Quartery
16. Manny Pacquiao
17. Harry Greb
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Hector Camacho
20. Ezzard Charles

21. Archie Moore
22. Rocky Marciano
23. Jorge Fernando Castro
24. Simon Brown
25. David Tua
26. Doug Jones
27. Joe Frazier
28. Muhammad Qawi
29. Salvador Sanchez
30. Michael Spinks


31. Juan Manuel Marquez
32. Evander Holyfield
33. Julio Cesar Chavez
34. Oscar Delahoya
35. Vinny Pazienza
36. Arnold Cream
37. Ronald Wright
38. Shane Mosley
39. Floyd Mayweather
40. Pernell Whitaker

41. Carmen Basilio
42. Vince Phillips
43. Meldrick Taylor
44. Miguel Cotto
45. Ricky Hatton
46. Kotsya Tszyu

.
Vinny Paz isnt high enough, also how comes Richard Frazier isnt on that list?

His mine
1 Byrant Brannon
2 Glen Kelly
3 Morrade Hakkar
4 Byrant Brannon again
5 Dan Sherry
7 Bruce Sheldon
8 Peter Mcneely
9 Ray close
10 Byrant Brannon again
11 cab driver
12 lorry driver
13 librarian
14 random binman
15 Byrant Brannon again

r.burgundy
07-14-2010, 06:02 PM
I am not absolutely sure about it , but :
Chris Byrd (6" , natural 175lber) fought :
Vitali Klitschko , Wladimir Klitschko (*2) , Jameel McCline , Andrezj Golota ,
Ike Ibeabuchi , David Tua , Ross Puritty , Alexander Povetkin as well as other dangerous opponents.

Orlin Norris (5'9" , natural 200lber) fought :
Vitali Klitschko , Henry Akiwande , Tony Tucker (*2) , Andrezj Golota , Oliver McCall , Brian Nielsen , Jesse Fergusson (and don't tell me he was not an upset able opponent) as well as other much bigger than himself and quality opponents.


Were there any fighters since Sam Langford , whom faced such a huge physical adversity and disadvantage so frequently ?

I say no. No one at all (since Langford) . Not even James Toney.
And if you consider the outcomes of their fights against that monsterous opposition , you may find they actually did quite good , these are the best examples of P4P fighters. And no disrespect to Robinson , but he did enjoy size advantage over most of his opponents and was stopped by Joey Maxim whom was bigger than himself , but much less bigger than Tucker , Akiwande , Vitali and even Golota were compared to Norris. Robinson also went 1:1 in split decisions against a smaller former welterweight in Carmen Basilio .

Simon Brown and Castro are great examples of P4P greatness if you just read their records carefully enough.
These are 4 great P4P fighters , what can you claim against it ?

chris byrd fought a tough group but he didnt win many,same with norris.its not just about who you fought,but who you beat.by your logic,denarcus corley should be #1 cause he fought cotto,mayweather,judah,bailey,alexander,witter and is about to fight maidaina next

simon brown has beat absolutey nobody.he fought good fighters but never won
castro knocked out all of argentina.his 1 good win is over jackson who was towards tha end of his career

r.burgundy
07-14-2010, 09:09 PM
poet off the top of my head my top 20 would be
ali
ray leonard
ray robinson
armstrong
ellorde
duran
ezzard charles
floyd patterson
hopkins
foreman
holyfield
langford
tyson
eric morrales
whitaker
holmes
de la hoya
morrales
jones jr

HaglerSteelChin
07-15-2010, 02:00 AM
If i was doing an off the wall list i would include Juan La Porte who was better than his record would indicate. I know many disagree but i thought he beat Chavez by a point or two in their match, Chavez also could have been deducted a second point for another low blow in round 12. He also gave Salvador Sanchez a game match for 15 rounds. Being only briefly a featherweight champion didn't give him the respect he deserved.

If Juan Roldan wouldn't get the eye injury who knows how his fight with Hagler would have turned out? He also came close to finishing THomas Hearns. Probably would have fared better as JMW.

David Tua beat like 4 former HW champions as Maskaev, Rahman, Moorer, and Ruiz. He also beat Fres Oquendo who was robbed against Chris Byrd, Tua is also a P4P guy on my off the wall list.

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 05:41 AM
chris byrd fought a tough group but he didnt win many,same with norris.its not just about who you fought,but who you beat.by your logic,denarcus corley should be #1 cause he fought cotto,mayweather,judah,bailey,alexander,witter and is about to fight maidaina next

simon brown has beat absolutey nobody.he fought good fighters but never won
castro knocked out all of argentina.his 1 good win is over jackson who was towards tha end of his career

By my logic , Corley would still not make the top 50.
Who are Bailey , Alexander , Witter and Maidana ? and I really not appreciate Judah that much.
Simon Brown KOd Terry Norris and Bobby Joe Young , stopped Maurice Blocker and Jorge Vaca , decisioned Luis Santana , not really "beat absolutely nobody" and in his prime he only lost a split decision to Marlon Starling , another fighter in my list.

Castro has 2 wins over John David Jackson , one of which by stoppage , and 2 disputable split decisions over Reggie Johnson which must still be respected , as it was a prime Reggie Johnson , he also has a stoppage win over a much younger , fresher and bigger former IBF CW champion Imamu Mayfield at a CW
title elimination , remember that Castro is originally a LMW (!) ,
and while being 40 he avenged his stoppage loss to Jose Luis Herrerra at 175
by way of a quicker stoppage , also he stopped LHW contender Derrick Harmon at LHW , another stoppage win over a younger , fresher and much bigger opponent , not to mention other fights when he lasted the distance against much bigger , younger and fresher opponents .
You should really study a little about a fighter before you raise such rude comments against him , if anything , I underrated him in my list .
Norris and Byrd fighting the men they fought (Norris outpointed Tucker and McCall among a few others) = Ray Robinson beating Michael Spinks , and
Norris losing on points to Golota and Akiwande = Robinson losing a competitive
fight on points to Riddick Bowe , Lewis and the Klitschkos .
Do you expect Robinson to last the distance against them ? I don't.
But (the 5'9") Norris lasted 12 against Golota , Tucker and Akiwande , actually
it can be claimed that he won both of his fights against Tucker and not just the second (I did watch his first fight against Tucker and his fight against Golota and didn't manage to get the second , nor his other fights).
Norris is not even a safety first fighter .
Byrd's stoppage win over VWK is possibly legit , as Vitali may have injured himself , while trying to hit Byrd .
Byrd lasted the distance against big punching big men such as WK , McCline and Golota not to mention he lasted the distance and won (deservedly or not)
decisions against Rahman , Tua and Holyfield (shot but still fought on many
years on) .
You chose to discredit 4 of the greatest P4P by definition fighters ever , do your homework before discrediting .

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 05:43 AM
Vinny Paz isnt high enough, also how comes Richard Frazier isnt on that list?

His mine
1 Byrant Brannon
2 Glen Kelly
3 Morrade Hakkar
4 Byrant Brannon again
5 Dan Sherry
7 Bruce Sheldon
8 Peter Mcneely
9 Ray close
10 Byrant Brannon again
11 cab driver
12 lorry driver
13 librarian
14 random binman
15 Byrant Brannon again

Not much worse than I thought it would be :yep: .

frankenfrank
07-15-2010, 05:56 AM
poet off the top of my head my top 20 would be
ali
ray leonard
ray robinson
armstrong
ellorde
duran
ezzard charles
floyd patterson
hopkins
foreman
holyfield
langford
tyson
eric morrales
whitaker
holmes
de la hoya
morrales
jones jr

Ali , Foreman , Lewis , Holmes , Louis and the Klitschkos are not good examples for P4P fighters as they enjoyed size advantage over most of their opponents .
Hopkins is a great foulist , that's all , he won the 10 dirtiest fighters ever thread I made somewhere else .

You have Morrales twice (Eric and someone else ?) yet no Pacquiao , JMM and Barrerra ?
Langford too low .
Jones Jr. a ducker , PED user and a chinny fighter all in one but still a better choice than Hopkins , at least under the rules of boxing he is .

Patterson above Langford and Tyson ? boy o boy.

Toney616
07-15-2010, 08:33 AM
Not much worse than I thought it would be :yep: .
lmao:boxing::boxing:

r.burgundy
07-15-2010, 11:02 AM
Ali , Foreman , Lewis , Holmes , Louis and the Klitschkos are not good examples for P4P fighters as they enjoyed size advantage over most of their opponents .
Hopkins is a great foulist , that's all , he won the 10 dirtiest fighters ever thread I made somewhere else .

You have Morrales twice (Eric and someone else ?) yet no Pacquiao , JMM and Barrerra ?
Langford too low .
Jones Jr. a ducker , PED user and a chinny fighter all in one but still a better choice than Hopkins , at least under the rules of boxing he is .

Patterson above Langford and Tyson ? boy o boy.

only 1st 5 are in order and ali,foreman,holmes are only around 6'3 which is not a big size advantage.and i dont have louis or lewis,or a klitscho on my list

hopkins isnt dirtier than holyfield and in hopkins biggest wins over tito,pavlik,tarver,de la hoya there was absolutely nothing dirty about his performances.matter of fact,the only really dirty fights hops has had were with echols,jones jr II,and calzhage some what

morrales has beat both barerra and paquiao in there primes and k.o'd jr jones,a guy who beat barrera.pacman will make my list once he retires

mike is 1 of my favorite fighters but he has the shortest prime in the history of boxing.he shouldnt be above 10 on any all time great list

i had morrales twice by mistake

im not a big langford fan but i respect him.i cant rank him above any modern heavy on my list cause he wouldnt stand a snowballs chance in hell of beating 1 of them

jones jr beat everybody there was to be except michelski who lost to a guy jones jr dominated.its usually a consensus that roy was untouchable at m.w

r.burgundy
07-15-2010, 12:22 PM
By my logic , Corley would still not make the top 50.
Who are Bailey , Alexander , Witter and Maidana ? and I really not appreciate Judah that much.
Simon Brown KOd Terry Norris and Bobby Joe Young , stopped Maurice Blocker and Jorge Vaca , decisioned Luis Santana , not really "beat absolutely nobody" and in his prime he only lost a split decision to Marlon Starling , another fighter in my list.

Castro has 2 wins over John David Jackson , one of which by stoppage , and 2 disputable split decisions over Reggie Johnson which must still be respected , as it was a prime Reggie Johnson , he also has a stoppage win over a much younger , fresher and bigger former IBF CW champion Imamu Mayfield at a CW
title elimination , remember that Castro is originally a LMW (!) ,
and while being 40 he avenged his stoppage loss to Jose Luis Herrerra at 175
by way of a quicker stoppage , also he stopped LHW contender Derrick Harmon at LHW , another stoppage win over a younger , fresher and much bigger opponent , not to mention other fights when he lasted the distance against much bigger , younger and fresher opponents .
You should really study a little about a fighter before you raise such rude comments against him , if anything , I underrated him in my list .
Norris and Byrd fighting the men they fought (Norris outpointed Tucker and McCall among a few others) = Ray Robinson beating Michael Spinks , and
Norris losing on points to Golota and Akiwande = Robinson losing a competitive
fight on points to Riddick Bowe , Lewis and the Klitschkos .
Do you expect Robinson to last the distance against them ? I don't.
But (the 5'9") Norris lasted 12 against Golota , Tucker and Akiwande , actually
it can be claimed that he won both of his fights against Tucker and not just the second (I did watch his first fight against Tucker and his fight against Golota and didn't manage to get the second , nor his other fights).
Norris is not even a safety first fighter .
Byrd's stoppage win over VWK is possibly legit , as Vitali may have injured himself , while trying to hit Byrd .
Byrd lasted the distance against big punching big men such as WK , McCline and Golota not to mention he lasted the distance and won (deservedly or not)
decisions against Rahman , Tua and Holyfield (shot but still fought on many
years on) .
You chose to discredit 4 of the greatest P4P by definition fighters ever , do your homework before discrediting .

stopping norris wasnt mission impossible.brown almost k.o'd him in the 1st round from a jab.and jackson gave him an all time great k.o.norris best wins were over the hill guys like leonard and mugabe.have you seen maurice blocker fight??his claim to fame was being tall.he sucked.

john jackson isnt a good fighter.he's just the best win on castros resume.harmon was ko'd in damn near all his cruiser fights.he was a natural light heavy.you give guys an insane amount of credit for making it the distance but lb for lb means,if all things were = who would be the best fighter.there is nothing whatsoever great about the skills of simon brown,jorge castro,orlin norris and chris byrd.they were solid fighters and good enough to be belt holders but not good enough to beat the best at any division

i dont give guys credit for just lasting the distance.should i give cotto credit for running away from manny for 8 rounds??absolutely not.in boxong you deal in wins and losses,but never ever should a guy be ranked just cause he made it the distance

and if going by your definition of lb for lb,pacquiao would be the greatest of all time being that he has won 7 different weigh titles

Toney616
07-15-2010, 01:11 PM
i dont give guys credit for just lasting the distance.should i give cotto credit for running away from manny for 8 rounds??absolutely not.in boxong you deal in wins and losses,but never ever should a guy be ranked just cause he made it the distance
Frankenfrank isnt a fight fan, his a boxrec fan, pretending to be a fight fan:boxing:

Control-
06-16-2012, 07:00 PM
dan sherry is a legend