Trinidad was the longest reigning Welterweight Champion in history, surpassing the mark set by Freddie Cochrane in World War II. Tito made 15 successful defenses during the course a reign that lasted over 6 years. Even though he won the title from the ordinary Maurice Blocker, he made a number of defenses against quality competition
http://www.boxingscene.com/index.php?m=show&id=1439

I dont think he is, people allways throw Trinidad/Gomez/Ortiz as the best, but surely they downplay Benitez, who even when going downhill, was able to beat Duran and lose a MD to Hearns, while making it to the 15th RD with Ray Leonard. It really doesnt seem clear who is #1 at this point. Does anybody agree?

Trinidad was the longest reigning Welterweight Champion in history, surpassing the mark set by Freddie Cochrane in World War II. Tito made 15 successful defenses during the course a reign that lasted over 6 years. Even though he won the title from the ordinary Maurice Blocker, he made a number of defenses against quality competition
http://www.boxingscene.com/index.php?m=show&id=1439

I dont think he is, people allways throw Trinidad/Gomez/Ortiz as the best, but surely they downplay Benitez, who even when going downhill, was able to beat Duran and lose a MD to Hearns, while making it to the 15th RD with Ray Leonard. It really doesnt seem clear who is #1 at this point. Does anybody agree?

I would have to say Tito is #3. 1-Ortiz, 2-Gomez, 3-Tito.

I would have to say Tito is #3. 1-Ortiz, 2-Gomez, 3-Tito.

I have it the same.

I mean ****, Ortiz beat Legit Hall of famers like Flash Elorde, Ismael Laguna, Joe Brown.....

Gomez is close with wins over Pintor and Zarate but not quite.

I'm also of the opinion that Carlos Ortiz is still the greatest fighter to have ever come from that tiny island of Puerto Rico.

For those who have seen him it's pretty obvious that he was exceptionally skilled. A very strong tactical fighter, who could fight on the outside and especially the inside (he'd come in behind the jab and knew how to cut the ring off very effectively). He possessed a very sharp left jab and very right cross from the outside. And on the inside, as mentioned he was very strong, and also had some excellant left hooks downstairs to the body. Punching accuracy and workrate...Tough as hell, as well, with very good stamina...Not an overly flashy style, but very, very effective.

And those skills/attributes carried him to a number of victories against a top-notch quality of opposition. He defeated HOF'ers such as Joe Brown (with the cuffs on), Flash Elorde (x2), Ismael Laguna (x2), Duilio Loi, Sugar Ramos (x2), and also drew with Nicolino Locche in Argentina (a fair decidion though, but against not only one of the best defensive fighters of all-time, but also one of the greatest Jr. Welterweights in history). He also defeated other top-notch fighters such as Kenny Lane (x2), Len Matthews, and Doug Vaillant (whose natural talents Angelo Dundee compared very favourably to the likes of Luis Rodriguez and Jose Napoles...two of the great Welterweights in history).

And his losses? Well, he lost to Johnny Busso, but that was lateravenged. He lost to Kenny Lane, but that was avenged twice over...As was his loss to Ismael Laguna. He lost twice to Duilio Loi, but defeated him previously (Sept. 2001 edition of The Ring says this about those losses to Loi; "to this day many consider both decision losses to be controversial"). He also lost to Teo Cruz (again the Sept. 2001 edition of The Ring says this about it; "Some say Ortiz was robbed."). And his only other loss was to Ken Buchanan, when Ortiz was well past his prime...To me, those losses don't nearly look all that bad when you sum them all up with the revenge and controversy factors.

Ortiz wasn't without his weaknesses though, as like Trinidad, he did have some difficulties with quick fighters who used great movement to stay away from him (Lane, Busso and Laguna, were all this type of fighter). And he also had a tendency to lax a little in training, as he was a little bit undisicplined in that department (for one, the loss to Laguna was blamed on this).

I'm also of the opinion that Carlos Ortiz is still the greatest fighter to have ever come from that tiny island of Puerto Rico.

For those who have seen him it's pretty obvious that he was exceptionally skilled. A very strong tactical fighter, who could fight on the outside and especially the inside (he'd come in behind the jab and knew how to cut the ring off very effectively). He possessed a very sharp left jab and very right cross from the outside. And on the inside, as mentioned he was very strong, and also had some excellant left hooks downstairs to the body. Punching accuracy and workrate...Tough as hell, as well, with very good stamina...Not an overly flashy style, but very, very effective.

And those skills/attributes carried him to a number of victories against a top-notch quality of opposition. He defeated HOF'ers such as Joe Brown (with the cuffs on), Flash Elorde (x2), Ismael Laguna (x2), Duilio Loi, Sugar Ramos (x2), and also drew with Nicolino Locche in Argentina (a fair decidion though, but against not only one of the best defensive fighters of all-time, but also one of the greatest Jr. Welterweights in history). He also defeated other top-notch fighters such as Kenny Lane (x2), Len Matthews, and Doug Vaillant (whose natural talents Angelo Dundee compared very favourably to the likes of Luis Rodriguez and Jose Napoles...two of the great Welterweights in history).

And his losses? Well, he lost to Johnny Busso, but that was lateravenged. He lost to Kenny Lane, but that was avenged twice over...As was his loss to Ismael Laguna. He lost twice to Duilio Loi, but defeated him previously (Sept. 2001 edition of The Ring says this about those losses to Loi; "to this day many consider both decision losses to be controversial"). He also lost to Teo Cruz (again the Sept. 2001 edition of The Ring says this about it; "Some say Ortiz was robbed."). And his only other loss was to Ken Buchanan, when Ortiz was well past his prime...To me, those losses don't nearly look all that bad when you sum them all up with the revenge and controversy factors.

Ortiz wasn't without his weaknesses though, as like Trinidad, he did have some difficulties with quick fighters who used great movement to stay away from him (Lane, Busso and Laguna, were all this type of fighter). And he also had a tendency to lax a little in training, as he was a little bit undisicplined in that department (for one, the loss to Laguna was blamed on this).


Didn't he also beat that 140 lb titlist Carlos Hernandez?

Never mind. I looked it up. He didn't.

Didn't he also beat that 140 lb titlist Carlos Hernandez?

I'm not sure, dude. He may have and yes, that would be another quality win on Ortiz' resume. Also I should've named Dave Charnley, as well, because he was another top lightweight from that era that Ortiz defeated, and is often considered one of the greatest lighter weight fighters to have ever come from Britain.

True. Wins over Kenny Lane and Joe Brown are nothing to sneeze at.

True. Wins over Kenny Lane and Joe Brown are nothing to sneeze at.

And the mob made Ortiz carry Brown in that fight, and if you've ever seen it, you can certainly see that Ortiz wasn't going all out (compare that Ortiz to the one who fought Ramos or Laguna). A very boring fight all the way through.

The pre-fight story went something like this;

Brown was all signed to defend his title against Ortiz, and Carlos immediately said he was going to knock him out. Well, the mob got wind of that statement by Ortiz and quickly cancelled the original date for the fight..."Are you still going to knock him out, Carlos?" Well, Ortiz really didn't have much of a choice if he wanted to be Lightweight champion, so he went along with the mob's wishes and reluctantly agreed to carry Brown for the full duration of the fight...The rest was history.

It's been a while since I've read the story about that fight, but that's the general theme of it.

I think it's very arguable about Tito. Take out of your mind off the Winky fight. Trinidad had a long, distinguished title run and beat some damn good fighters in the process. I would say it's a toss up. arrange the three (Ortiz,Gomez,Trinidad) anyway you want..all three great champs ..my personal favorite was Gomez. The Pintor-Gomez fight was great. I think it was on the undercard of Holmes-Cooney :confused:

What about Benitez? After he beat Duran, he lost to (record: 44-1-1) Hearns in a very, very close fight, than started to lose fights from there.

1)March 6, 1976 won the WBA junior welterweight title (140 pounds) by beating Antonio "Kid Pambele".
2)January 14, 1979 won the WBC welterweight title (147 pounds) by beating Carlos Palomino.
3)May 23, 1981 won the WBC super welterweight (154 pounds) by beating Maurice Hope.

http://www.wilfredbenitez.com/Bio/Bio.htm
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000438

What about Benitez? After he beat Duran, he lost to (record: 44-1-1) Hearns in a very, very close fight, than started to lose fights from there.

1)March 6, 1976 won the WBA junior welterweight title (140 pounds) by beating Antonio "Kid Pambele".
2)January 14, 1979 won the WBC welterweight title (147 pounds) by beating Carlos Palomino.
3)May 23, 1981 won the WBC super welterweight (154 pounds) by beating Maurice Hope.

http://www.wilfredbenitez.com/Bio/Bio.htm
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000438


Benitez was a great Boxer. Putting him below the three greats mentioned isn't a shot at him. He was indeed great. I just thought the others were better.

What about Benitez? After he beat Duran, he lost to (record: 44-1-1) Hearns in a very, very close fight, than started to lose fights from there.

1)March 6, 1976 won the WBA junior welterweight title (140 pounds) by beating Antonio "Kid Pambele".
2)January 14, 1979 won the WBC welterweight title (147 pounds) by beating Carlos Palomino.
3)May 23, 1981 won the WBC super welterweight (154 pounds) by beating Maurice Hope.

http://www.wilfredbenitez.com/Bio/Bio.htm
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000438

Bro, I think it's entirely within reason to favour Benitez, and if you do so, I can't imagine there'd be too many people who'd argue too strongly against that selection. Actually any four of those guys you have listed in your sig are worthy candidates, as there's not really a whole lot seperating each of them (splitting hairs, maybe?)...Four great fighters that Puerto Rico can be proud of, for sure.

I like Ortiz over the rest and I tried to explain a little bit why that is so. But hey, Benitez, Gomez and Trinidad are all excellant choices, as well.

winky wright proved
that he aint all that.

winky wright proved
that he aint all that.

Winky Wright > Buster Douglas ;)