View Full Version : Famous fighters associated with the underworld?


JAB5239
03-30-2010, 01:22 AM
Name as many famous fighters as you can and the underworld crime figures they were associated either before, during, or after their careers.

I'll start with....

Abe Attell = Arnold Rothstein
Barney Ross = Al Capone and Jack Ruby

What are some others?

1SILVA
03-30-2010, 01:26 AM
Name as many famous fighters as you can and the underworld crime figures they were associated either before, during, or after their careers.

I'll start with....

Abe Attell = Arnold Rothstein
Barney Ross = Al Capone and Jack Ruby

What are some others?

Sonny Liston(he was controlled by the mob, but I don't know what family he was connected to)

CarlosG815
03-30-2010, 01:28 AM
Rocky Marciano would give a percentage of his purse to the mob. I also read that before a fighter could get a shot at Marciano's title you had to fight an unofficial match with a guy that was apparently much better than Marciano, but never fought in official fights.

JAB5239
03-30-2010, 01:44 AM
Rocky Marciano would give a percentage of his purse to the mob. I also read that before a fighter could get a shot at Marciano's title you had to fight an unofficial match with a guy that was apparently much better than Marciano, but never fought in official fights.

Marciano gave a percentage to the mob? I've never heard this either. This is interesting to me since my father was friends with Raymond Patriarca who ran the New England family AND saw Marciano fight several times at the old Rhode Island auditorium. Do have any sources on this or which family he supposedly kicked back to?

Ziggy Stardust
03-30-2010, 01:51 AM
Sonny Liston(he was controlled by the mob, but I don't know what family he was connected to)

Originally Blinky Palermo and Franky Carbo. Carbo controlled all of boxing through his front man Jim Norris at the IBC.

Poet

The Hate Giver
03-30-2010, 02:13 AM
basically everybody in the so called boxing's golden era.

Old timers go on & on about how bad the state of boxing is these days yet in the golden era black people didnt even have equal rights as human beings & citizens. How much more in the sport of boxing?

how many fighters threw fights? How many black fighters got robbed of wins, how many black fighters didnt get title shots?

Golden Era = Tainted Era.

JAB5239
03-30-2010, 02:34 AM
Rocky Marciano would give a percentage of his purse to the mob. I also read that before a fighter could get a shot at Marciano's title you had to fight an unofficial match with a guy that was apparently much better than Marciano, but never fought in official fights.

Page 290 of the book "Rocky Marciano: The rock of his time" refutes all of this.

CarlosG815
03-30-2010, 02:45 AM
Page 290 of the book "Rocky Marciano: The rock of his time" refutes all of this.

Is it rumor? I've read it from a few different sources. Not sure if it was fact or rumor.

What does the book say?

mickey malone
03-30-2010, 02:49 AM
Originally Blinky Palermo and Franky Carbo. Carbo controlled all of boxing through his front man Jim Norris at the IBC.

Poet
Carbo was the man who pulled the trigger on Bugsy Siegal..
Fighters I know he either contolled or had dealings with included Primo Carnera, Marty Servo, Ike Williams, Jack Sharkey, Corey Wallace, Jimmy Bivins, Tony Janiro and Corey Wallace who beat Marciano as an amateur..
He tried to muscle in on SRR too, but Robinson always resisted his offers..

CarlosG815
03-30-2010, 02:51 AM
Page 290 of the book "Rocky Marciano: The rock of his time" refutes all of this.

According to Johnny Arthur...

“There was one guy,” he recalled. “Everybody feared him. If you wanted to challenge Marciano for his title, you first had to fight him. I’m not just talking about official matches either. If they wanted to keep it quiet you had to fight him in the gym. He was brutal. He’d either beat you so badly that you’d pull out of the fight with Marciano, or just hurt you real bad so that when you climbed into the ring for the fight you were still hurting. He was better than Marciano, but they never let him fight him. He was just the guy you had to go through to get a title shot.”

JAB5239
03-30-2010, 02:52 AM
Is it rumor? I've read it from a few different sources. Not sure if it was fact or rumor.

What does the book say?

I didn't read the book I just put a search in and that is one of the things I came up with. It said both the gangsters and Marciano had a fondness for each other and did associate. But Marciano had to much integrity to have any business dealing with them as a fighter. For their part the mob guys put the word out that Marciano wasn't to be messed with and nobody should try to have any underhanded dealing with him and try to take advantage of him. Everything else I searched pretty much confirms this. I didn't come across anything that said Rocky kicked any money up to the wise guys at all.

JAB5239
03-30-2010, 02:56 AM
According to Johnny Arthur...

“There was one guy,” he recalled. “Everybody feared him. If you wanted to challenge Marciano for his title, you first had to fight him. I’m not just talking about official matches either. If they wanted to keep it quiet you had to fight him in the gym. He was brutal. He’d either beat you so badly that you’d pull out of the fight with Marciano, or just hurt you real bad so that when you climbed into the ring for the fight you were still hurting. He was better than Marciano, but they never let him fight him. He was just the guy you had to go through to get a title shot.”

Again, Im not saying it isn't true, but it sound pretty melodramatic and fictional in my opinion. More like a movie than reality, but who knows?

The Hate Giver
03-30-2010, 02:57 AM
Page 290 of the book "Rocky Marciano: The rock of his time" refutes all of this.

Just because he refutes it doesnt mean it didnt happen.


I didn't read the book I just put a search in and that is one of the things I came up with. It said both the gangsters and Marciano had a fondness for each other and did associate. But Marciano had to much integrity to have any business dealing with them as a fighter. For their part the mob guys put the word out that Marciano wasn't to be messed with and nobody should try to have any underhanded dealing with him and try to take advantage of him. Everything else I searched pretty much confirms this. I didn't come across anything that said Rocky kicked any money up to the wise guys at all.


reading that pretty much sums up that he was controlled.

mickey malone
03-30-2010, 03:02 AM
Marciano gave a percentage to the mob? I've never heard this either. This is interesting to me since my father was friends with Raymond Patriarca who ran the New England family AND saw Marciano fight several times at the old Rhode Island auditorium. Do have any sources on this or which family he supposedly kicked back to?
I've always struggled with the thought of Marciano being involved with the mob, but I believe it to be a fact, that he did pay a visit to the deathbed of Vito Genovese, one of the most brutal Mafia bosses of all time..
Marciano and the mob, has always been one of the most controversial topics in boxing..

JAB5239
03-30-2010, 03:04 AM
Just because he refutes it doesnt mean it didnt happen.

Others refute it, and it doesn't mean it did happen.

reading that pretty much sums up that he was controlled.

Only a complete moron would jump to such a conclusion. Can you offer ANY proof?

JAB5239
03-30-2010, 03:08 AM
I've always struggled with the thought of Marciano being involved with the mob, but I believe it to be a fact, that he did pay a visit to the deathbed of Vito Genovese, one of the most brutal Mafia bosses of all time..
Marciano and the mob, has always been one of the most controversial topics in boxing..

Associated doesn't mean involved though. Hell, I grew up around wise guys. Frank "Bobo" Marapese was my fathers best friend. That doesn't mean I have dealings with them, only that we've associated.

The Hate Giver
03-30-2010, 03:13 AM
Only a complete moron would jump to such a conclusion. Can you offer ANY proof?

so marciano & mafiosi had fondness for each other & did associate but you think that he had too much integrity to do such things in a boxing era steeped in mafia corruption?

Do you have proof he wasnt corrupted other than his word?


Him being a italian undefeated heavyweight in a era where fighters rarely ever go undefeated in any division along with his fondness of gangsters & gangsters fondness of him while both associating with each other in a boxing era controlled by the italian mafia is more proof than him denying it.



Talk about a moron jumping to conclusions.

CarlosG815
03-30-2010, 03:19 AM
Only a complete moron would jump to such a conclusion. Can you offer ANY proof?

If you consider the power of the mob at the time, it would be difficult for there to be any evidence if they didn't want there to be any.

Mafia owned law, newspapers, ceo's, etc.

It's not like the conclusion he's jumping to is THAT idiotic, man. It's a pretty legit argument and I think most would agree that he probably did, even though there is no hard evidence.

JAB5239
03-30-2010, 03:19 AM
so marciano & mafiosi had fondness for each other & did associate but you think that he had too much integrity to do such things in a boxing era steeped in mafia corruption?

Do you have proof he wasnt corrupted other than his word?


Him being a italian undefeated heavyweight in a era where fighters rarely ever go undefeated in any division along with his fondness of gangsters & gangsters fondness of him while both associating with each other in a boxing era controlled by the italian mafia is more proof than him denying it.



Talk about a moron jumping to conclusions.

So you've got absolutely no proof? Zero? Nada? Zilch? Nothing? Figures.

JAB5239
03-30-2010, 03:25 AM
If you consider the power of the mob at the time, it would be difficult for there to be any evidence if they didn't want there to be any.

Mafia owned law, newspapers, ceo's, etc.

It's not like the conclusion he's jumping to is THAT idiotic, man. It's a pretty legit argument and I think most would agree that he probably did, even though there is no hard evidence.

Most would agree on what, that he was controlled or influenced by the mob?

CarlosG815
03-30-2010, 03:32 AM
Most would agree on what, that he was controlled or influenced by the mob?

Not controlled, or necessarily influenced, but his career was heavily associated.

Again I have no proof but I think it's a legit concern.

mickey malone
03-30-2010, 03:44 AM
Associated doesn't mean involved though. Hell, I grew up around wise guys. Frank "Bobo" Marapese was my fathers best friend. That doesn't mean I have dealings with them, only that we've associated.
Well I reckon that you'd now better than me then.. My old fella knew the Krays but didn't get involved with them.. Rumour has it that they controlled the career of Freddie Mills.. Some say he was having a clandestine homosexual affair with Ronnie Kray, and this may have led to his suspicious gun death in the middle of London.

One fight that always did have a lot of controversy surrounding the mob, was when Ernie Terrell defeated George Chuvalo for the WBA title after Ali had been stripped..
Terrell was managed by Frank Carbo's old no2, Bernie Glickman..
"Bernie Glickman came up there and scared everybody to death," recalled Chuvallo 30 years later.. "He said, if you throw punches, you're going to end up in Lake Erie!"

For 6 rounds the Terrell-Chuvalo fight was fairly competetive, but in the last half of the fight, the footage clearly shows the normally free-swinging Chuvalo barely punched at all..

JAB5239
03-30-2010, 03:49 AM
Well I reckon that you'd now better than me then.. My old fella knew the Krays but didn't get involved with them.. Rumour has it that they controlled the career of Freddie Mills.. Some say he was having a clandestine homosexual affair with Ronnie Kray, and this may have led to his suspicious gun death in the middle of London.

One fight that always did have a lot of controversy surrounding the mob, was when Ernie Terrell defeated George Chuvalo for the WBA title after Ali had been stripped..
Terrell was managed by Frank Carbo's old no2, Bernie Glickman..
"Bernie Glickman came up there and scared everybody to death," recalled Chuvallo 30 years later.. "He said, if you throw punches, you're going to end up in Lake Erie!"

For 6 rounds the Terrell-Chuvalo fight was fairly competetive, but in the last half of the fight, the footage clearly shows the normally free-swinging Chuvalo barely punched at all..


Great info on the related subject. Thanks Mic!!

GJC
03-30-2010, 10:47 AM
Think with Marciano and the mob there is a lot of 2 + 2 = 5.
He was Italian + they were Italian, he drank with some people who might be viewed as unsavoury.
Well I've had a lot of drinks in my time with people who would be viewed as very unsavoury whose company I enjoyed and who were neighbours etc but it doesn't make me a gangster.

They had a lot of influence in boxing in that era for sure but looking at Marciano's career:
1) He never lost. So no taking a dive there.
2) He didn't half give people a working over. If they were taking a dive a lot of them sure took their time over it and took an awful lot of punishment. You would struggle to find a KO of Marciano's that didn't look like a very hard punch or accumalation of punches.

Lots of criminals used to box as kids so they hero worship boxers, the twins who Micky referred to certainly did.

It's very thin circumstantial evidence to take away a mans good name on IMO.

mickey malone
03-30-2010, 11:08 AM
Vito Antuofermo, a crude bleeder from New York held the MW title, but everyone knew Hagler was the real king.. In 1992, Mob stoolie, Michael Franzese testified in a Washington court that some of Antuofermo's fights were fixed, but he claimed the Hagler fight wasn't.. Hagler pounded Vito on 30th November 1979, only to get a scandalous draw.. You'd never convince skeptics..

GJC
03-30-2010, 12:00 PM
[COLOR="Green"].. My old fella knew the Krays but didn't get involved with them.. Rumour has it that they controlled the career of Freddie Mills.. Some say he was having a clandestine homosexual affair with Ronnie Kray, and this may have led to his suspicious gun death in the middle of London.


Freddie was long retired before the twins were a factor Mickey was a big rumour at the time that they had their fingers on a boxer, you'd know of him, but it wasn't Freddie.
Don't think there was anything untoward there even with his club, they loved Freddie (not in that way either!) and liked to be seen with famous people.
Ronnie liked the younger lads I understand and a bit prettier than Freddie lol
Awful lot of rumours about Freddie Mills but I think that it is easy to libel a dead man. I just think that people could never associate the brave chirpy battler that he was with a man that would commit suicide.

mickey malone
03-30-2010, 01:07 PM
Freddie was long retired before the twins were a factor Mickey was a big rumour at the time that they had their fingers on a boxer, you'd know of him, but it wasn't Freddie.
Don't think there was anything untoward there even with his club, they loved Freddie (not in that way either!) and liked to be seen with famous people.
Ronnie liked the younger lads I understand and a bit prettier than Freddie lol
Awful lot of rumours about Freddie Mills but I think that it is easy to libel a dead man. I just think that people could never associate the brave chirpy battler that he was with a man that would commit suicide.
Comendable input there my good man.. I should have made my sarcasm a lot clearer when describing what some mortals have actually come out with..
I wasn't intending to soil his reputation I can assure you.. Al Brown, Emile Grffith, Ronnie Kray were all gay imo, but there is no evidence to suggest that Freddie Mills was.. Like those mentioined b4 him, it doesn't change the way I regard them, as it wouldn't if Mills was gay..

The twins were as you know associated with with quite a few boxers and i think i know the one your referring to, so my bad for inferring his career as opposed to his retirement, but there was a fairly strong association there, and he did die in quite suspicious circumstances.. I wonder why so many absurd things have been written about him?
If it was suicide, it comes down to the same old question - Why? - so i suppose we'll never know for sure, but you were in your prime while knocking about in that neck of the woods while all this was gioing on so i respect your view more than anyone elses on this call..

Ziggy Stardust
03-30-2010, 03:05 PM
basically everybody in the so called boxing's golden era.

Old timers go on & on about how bad the state of boxing is these days yet in the golden era black people didnt even have equal rights as human beings & citizens. How much more in the sport of boxing?

how many fighters threw fights? How many black fighters got robbed of wins, how many black fighters didnt get title shots?

Golden Era = Tainted Era.

Ah yes, and in the squeaky clean modern era we get crooks like Don King and Bob Arum. Sounds to me like the era you're bad mouthing was no more corrupt than today's cesspool.

Poet

The Hate Giver
03-30-2010, 03:32 PM
Ah yes, and in the squeaky clean modern era we get crooks like Don King and Bob Arum. Sounds to me like the era you're bad mouthing was no more corrupt than today's cesspool.

Poet

More corrupt, powerful, & dangerous;

former murder inc. gunman & lucchese made man >>>>> king & arum.