View Full Version : Score cards:Muhammad Ali vs Joe Frazier 1


boxingbuff
03-29-2010, 06:49 PM
I have watched this fight over 100 times! I have scored it different almost everytime.I have scoed it 10-5 Frazier and 7-7-1,and anywhere in between.

I watched the fight again last night.....

1-Ali
2-Ali
3-Even
4-Ali
5-Ali.....Frazier gave that round away.
6-Frazier
7-Frazier
8-Frazier
9-Ali......Ali hurt Frazier,and had him in trouble
10-Frazier
11-Frazier....Frazier hurt Ali badly,and almost knocked him out.
12-Frazier
13-Even
14-Ali
15-Frazier knocks Ali down,and then hurts him again and again.

7-6-2-Frazier....But on points Frazier wins clearly by 3 points.

Please score the fight by rounds.

Thank You

Sugarj
03-29-2010, 07:11 PM
I'll try and get round to watching it again and will score, but I'm pretty sure I had the fight almost round by round the same as you.

boxingbuff
03-30-2010, 04:05 PM
Nobody watched THE FIGHT OF THE CENTURY?

The biggest fight in boxing history?

Sugarj
04-23-2010, 08:30 PM
Right, I finally got round to watching this fight again and scoring:

Round 1: Ali (but closer than I remembered it being)
Round 2: Ali (clearly)
Round 3: Ali (closer round)
Round 4: Ali (but a very good last 40 seconds by Frazier)
Round 5: Ali (clearly)
Round 6: Frazier (clearly)
Round 7: Ali (so close, another great finish to the round by Frazier)
Round 8: Frazier (clearly)
Round 9: Ali (Great start & finish by Ali, good middle of the round by Frazier)
Round 10: Draw (My notes said 'if I was pushed I'd shade Ali')
Round 11: Frazier (clearly, under the ten point must system 10-8 for me)
Round 12: Frazier (but quite a close round)
Round 13: Draw (closest round for me, both tired but good scoring moments)
Round 14: Frazier (on sheer aggression)
Round 15: Frazier (clearly, knockdown 10-8 under the ten point must system)

Result (7,6,2) Ali under the rounds scoring system.

BUT under the ten point must system I have it 143-142 Frazier.

Points to consider:

Frazier deserved to win this fight, even though my scoring under the rounds system had him a one point loser. Frazier definitely beat Ali, no two ways about it. The rounds Frazier dominated were much more decisive than the rounds Ali shaded.

As Frazier was champ it was probably right that he should have got the 'edge' or the 'benefit of the doubt' in several of the closer rounds, so rounds 10 and 13 on my card may well have gone Frazier's way based on this.....and because drawn rounds were fairly rare (only one of the three judges scored an even round this night). Oh.....and I'm not a professional judge, just a fan:pat:

Frazier was clearly the aggressor and didn't initiate as many clinches as Ali, his hitting was also more concussive than Ali's. This also may have swayed the judges in his favour in close rounds. But I would argue that Ali scored more often and displayed the better ring generalship even in the close rounds that he lost.

I think I'm right in saying that the rounds scoring system used on the night doesn't award anything extra for a knockdown in the round or for a truely decisive round like the eleventh? Does anyone know this for sure? No suprise that the much fairer ten point must system is now used to credit an extra point for a knockdown or very dominant round!!

There are two different films of the fight and I have just watched the more colourful, closer version (not the more popular 'Fighters' version more freely available). You can really hear the blows land and for me is the better one to judge.........but the other version shows the knockdown better.

boxingbuff
04-23-2010, 08:36 PM
Right, I finally got round to watching this fight again and scoring:

Round 1: Ali (but closer than I remembered it being)
Round 2: Ali (clearly)
Round 3: Ali (closer round)
Round 4: Ali (but a very good last 40 seconds by Frazier)
Round 5: Ali (clearly)
Round 6: Frazier (clearly)
Round 7: Ali (so close, another great finish to the round by Frazier)
Round 8: Frazier (clearly)
Round 9: Ali (Great start & finish by Ali, good middle of the round by Frazier)
Round 10: Draw (My notes said 'if I was pushed I'd shade Ali')
Round 11: Frazier (clearly, under the ten point must system 10-8 for me)
Round 12: Frazier (but quite a close round)
Round 13: Draw (closest round for me, both tired but good scoring moments)
Round 14: Frazier (on sheer aggression)
Round 15: Frazier (clearly, knockdown 10-8 under the ten point must system)

Result (7,6,2) Ali under the rounds scoring system.

BUT under the ten point must system I have it 143-142 Frazier.

Points to consider:

Frazier deserved to win this fight, even though my scoring under the rounds system had him a one point loser. Frazier definitely beat Ali, no two ways about it. The rounds Frazier dominated were much more decisive than the rounds Ali shaded.

As Frazier was champ it was probably right that he should have got the 'edge' or the 'benefit of the doubt' in several of the closer rounds, so rounds 10 and 13 on my card may well have gone Frazier's way based on this.....and because drawn rounds were fairly rare (only one of the three judges scored an even round this night). Oh.....and I'm not a professional judge, just a fan:pat:

Frazier was clearly the aggressor and didn't initiate as many clinches as Ali, his hitting was also more concussive than Ali's. This also may have swayed the judges in his favour in close rounds. But I would argue that Ali scored more often and displayed the better ring generalship even in the close rounds that he lost.

I think I'm right in saying that the rounds scoring system used on the night doesn't award anything extra for a knockdown in the round or for a truely decisive round like the eleventh? Does anyone know this for sure? No suprise that the much fairer ten point must system is now used to credit an extra point for a knockdown or very dominant round!!

There are two different films of the fight and I have just watched the more colourful, closer version (not the more popular 'Fighters' version more freely available). You can really hear the blows land and for me is the better one to judge.........but the other version shows the knockdown better.

Great post and i agree with everything you said.

Thank you for taking the time to watch the fight,and to post about the fight.

Again,great post.

Sugarj
04-23-2010, 08:45 PM
Cheers bud, great that you got to my reply so quickly. I think we ended up agreeing on many of the rounds too...........and lets face it so many were close.

I had to dig back a few pages to find this thread.......I've been itching to see the fight and reply for a few weeks now.

boxingbuff
04-23-2010, 08:49 PM
Cheers bud, great that you got to my reply so quickly. I think we ended up agreeing on many of the rounds too...........and lets face it so many were close.

I had to dig back a few pages to find this thread.......I've been itching to see the fight and reply for a few weeks now.

Thanks again.I hope we get many other posts on this great fight.

Sugarj
04-23-2010, 08:52 PM
Absolutely! Its one of the best fights ever, an hour well spent even if you've seen it dozens of times.

I want the better film of the fight to be remastered and sold on Blu Ray HD. I'd pay for that!!!

DonairesRevenge
11-04-2011, 03:38 AM
#1. Frazier - 10-9
#2. Ali - 10-9
#3. Ali - 10-9
#4. Ali - 10-9
#5. Ali - 10-9
#6. Frazier - 10-9
#7. Ali - 10-9
#8. Frazier - 10-9
#9. Ali - 10-9
#10 Ali - 10-9
#11 Frazier - 10-9
#12. Frazier - 10-9
#13. Ali - 10-9
#14. Ali - 10-9
#15. Frazier - 10-8

143-141 - Ali

No doubt Joe landed the harder punches in the fight but i liked the way Ali would put his punches together crisply with 4-5 at a time. The fight was very close and a close score to Frazier i wouldn't argue with. I just feel Ali needed a KO to win that fight after all the political stuff that had went on. I think an 11-4 score for either fighter was ridiculous. Great fight, it's often forgot about because of what happened in Manila.

Mannie Phresh
11-04-2011, 03:40 AM
ill be back in this thread in ah hour.

Mannie Phresh
11-04-2011, 04:47 AM
rd1 ali 10 joe 9
rd2 ali 10 joe 9
rd3 ali 9 joe 10
rd4 ali 9 joe 10
rd5 ali 9 joe 10
rd6 ali 9 joe 10
rd7 ali 9 joe 10
rd8 ali 9 joe 10
rd9 ali 10 joe 9
rd10 ali 10 joe 9
rd11 ali 9 joe 10
rd12 ali 9 joe 10
rd13 ali 10 joe 9
rd14 ali 9 joe 10
rd15 ali 8 joe 10

Ali 138 Joe 145

DarkTerror88
11-04-2011, 08:36 AM
8-6-1 Frazier

He won pretty convincingly

Sugarj
11-04-2011, 08:55 AM
rd1 ali 10 joe 9
rd2 ali 10 joe 9
rd3 ali 9 joe 10
rd4 ali 9 joe 10
rd5 ali 9 joe 10
rd6 ali 9 joe 10
rd7 ali 9 joe 10
rd8 ali 9 joe 10
rd9 ali 10 joe 9
rd10 ali 10 joe 9
rd11 ali 9 joe 10
rd12 ali 9 joe 10
rd13 ali 10 joe 9
rd14 ali 9 joe 10
rd15 ali 8 joe 10

Ali 138 Joe 145


I've no idea how you managed to score round 5 for Frazier, it was one of the most decisive in the fight. As BoxingBuff rightly said on page 1 of this thread, 'Frazier gave the round away'.

DonairesRevenge
11-04-2011, 09:57 AM
I've no idea how you managed to score round 5 for Frazier, it was one of the most decisive in the fight. As BoxingBuff rightly said on page 1 of this thread, 'Frazier gave the round away'.Ali won 14 as well IMO

Sugarj
11-04-2011, 11:13 AM
Ali won 14 as well IMO


Funnily enough, my scores are on page 1 of the thread.........and I gave the 14th to Frazier on aggression.

The reason I picked out round 5 with Manny Phresh was because it was arguably the most one sided of Ali's rounds (Frazier didn't do much at all). Scoring that one to Frazier is incomprehensible.

DonairesRevenge
11-04-2011, 11:45 AM
Funnily enough, my scores are on page 1 of the thread.........and I gave the 14th to Frazier on aggression.

The reason I picked out round 5 with Manny Phresh was because it was arguably the most one sided of Ali's rounds (Frazier didn't do much at all). Scoring that one to Frazier is incomprehensible.
I just noticed you'd gave that to Joe, it certainly wasn't as one-sided as the 5th. :lol1:

hhascup
11-04-2011, 12:11 PM
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> First of all, if you are going to score a fight, you have to score it with the same scoring system that was used at that time. If you don't a lot of fights would come out differently.


In case anyone wants to know the official scorecards for the first Ali vs. Frazier fight "The fight of the Century" read like this:

Arthur Mercante (referee) Frazier 8 rounds, Ali 6 rounds, 1 even
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
A A F F F A A F F A F E F A F

Arthur Aidala Frazier 9 rounds, Ali 6 rounds
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
A A F F F F F F A A F F A A F

Bill Recht Frazier 11 rounds, Ali 4 rounds
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
F A F F A F F F A F F F F A F


The Officials only scored 7 rounds all the same (5-2 Frazier), so in 8 rounds at least 1 of them had it the other way or even, and that is why people have a big difference in scoring this fight. If you score it as to who won the most rounds by most of the judges, it comes out to 9-6 for Frazier, But it could be the other way around as well.


1. - 2-1 Ali
2. - 3-0 Ali
3. - 3-0 Joe
4. - 3-0 Joe
5. - 2-1 Joe
6. - 2-1 Joe
7. - 2-1 Joe
8. - 3-0 Joe
9. - 2-1 Ali
10 - 2-1 Ali
11 - 3-0 Joe
12 - 2-0-1 Joe
13 - 2-1 Ali
14 - 3-0 Ali
15 - 3-0 Joe

bojangles1987
11-04-2011, 01:06 PM
I don't remember round by round, but I watched this not too long ago and had it 9-6 Frazier I believe, plus the knockdown.

IronDanHamza
11-04-2011, 01:18 PM
I had Fraizer winning convincingly.

And I'll tell you I have never been so happy than when those scorecards were read out.

IronDanHamza
11-04-2011, 01:22 PM
Absolutely! Its one of the best fights ever, an hour well spent even if you've seen it dozens of times.

I want the better film of the fight to be remastered and sold on Blu Ray HD. I'd pay for that!!!

I'd say I've watched it close to a thousand times.

Sugarj
11-04-2011, 06:56 PM
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> First of all, if you are going to score a fight, you have to score it with the same scoring system that was used at that time. If you don't a lot of fights would come out differently.


In case anyone wants to know the official scorecards for the first Ali vs. Frazier fight "The fight of the Century" read like this:

Arthur Mercante (referee) Frazier 8 rounds, Ali 6 rounds, 1 even
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
A A F F F A A F F A F E F A F

Arthur Aidala Frazier 9 rounds, Ali 6 rounds
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
A A F F F F F F A A F F A A F

Bill Recht Frazier 11 rounds, Ali 4 rounds
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
F A F F A F F F A F F F F A F


The Officials only scored 7 rounds all the same (5-2 Frazier), so in 8 rounds at least 1 of them had it the other way or even, and that is why people have a big difference in scoring this fight. If you score it as to who won the most rounds by most of the judges, it comes out to 9-6 for Frazier, But it could be the other way around as well.


1. - 2-1 Ali
2. - 3-0 Ali
3. - 3-0 Joe
4. - 3-0 Joe
5. - 2-1 Joe
6. - 2-1 Joe
7. - 2-1 Joe
8. - 3-0 Joe
9. - 2-1 Ali
10 - 2-1 Ali
11 - 3-0 Joe
12 - 2-0-1 Joe
13 - 2-1 Ali
14 - 3-0 Ali
15 - 3-0 Joe



Lord! Arthur Mercante and Arthur Aidala scored round 5 for Frazier!!! Unbelievable.......what were they watching???!

I've just watched round 5 again now to make sure I wasn't deluding myself. Frazier spent more time taunting Ali than actually throwing punches.

hhascup
11-04-2011, 06:59 PM
Score the fight for yourself:

http://sosoboxing.com/boxing-video-watch-online/joe-frazier-vs-muhammad-ali-i/

Sugarj
11-04-2011, 07:00 PM
I'd say I've watched it close to a thousand times.


You just cant get bored watching it can you? Awesome fight.

Do you watch both versions? I personally prefer the NBC broadcast, the colour looks better and you seem more immersed in the action.

Mannie Phresh
11-04-2011, 08:49 PM
I've no idea how you managed to score round 5 for Frazier, it was one of the most decisive in the fight. As BoxingBuff rightly said on page 1 of this thread, 'Frazier gave the round away'.

rewatched rd 5 ali really didnt do much just onn his bicycle i gave it to frazier for aggression

DarkTerror88
11-04-2011, 11:23 PM
I had Fraizer winning convincingly.

And I'll tell you I have never been so happy than when those scorecards were read out.

Same here brother, Preach.

bose
11-05-2011, 01:53 AM
I just watched "Thrilla in Manilla" it was very good documentary better then "Fight of the Century". I'll have to score the fight but i think most all had Fraizer winning.

BennyST
11-05-2011, 02:08 AM
8-6-1 Frazier

He won pretty convincingly

I have to agree with this. Ali didn't win. It's kind of like those guys that say Leonard won the first fight against Duran. It was a good battle throughout but only one guy was an obvious winner and the right guy won each time.

Frazier won the fight quite clearly, if in a reasonably close fashion. I always have it about 9-6 Frazier. No matter how many times I've watched it, Ali loses it every time. Even when I try to give him close rounds, he still loses too many because despite his good boxing in some rounds, he just gets hit with too many hard punches. A lot of the rounds he won, apart from the clear ones, you could argue were Frazier's due to the harder punches landed.

The rounds often given to Ali, especially by those that say he won, were close and could, possibly should, have gone to Frazier.

Round 1: very close
Round 3: very close
Both of those rounds are often given to Ali. Both very close.
Round 10: I think it's a Frazier round. He won the first and last minute and landed the harder punches and some vicious body shots throughout (about five or six very good body shots in the first minute).
Round 12: Sometimes people bizarrely give this to Ali. Frazier wins it in the first minute clearly, hurting Ali and dominating it.
Round 13: usually given to Ali by those that say he won. It's close, but Frazier is more consistent, lands the harder punches and a lot of body shots. I think a lot of the guys that talk about Ali outboxing Frazier and landing more jabs dismiss the short punches and body shots that Frazier lands in rounds like that.
Round 14: good round for Ali.

Sugarj
11-05-2011, 01:30 PM
rewatched rd 5 ali really didnt do much just onn his bicycle i gave it to frazier for aggression

But what about the combinations Ali connected with? Frazier spent the round coming forward but he didn't throw much at all.....and when he did start taunting Ali, he received a face full of leather.

Oh well, the ref and one judge saw it your way.............what would I know?

Mannie Phresh
11-05-2011, 01:53 PM
But what about the combinations Ali connected with? Frazier spent the round coming forward but he didn't throw much at all.....and when he did start taunting Ali, he received a face full of leather.

Oh well, the ref and one judge saw it your way.............what would I know?

i watched it again lol. i can see you giving it to ali but nobody really did anything to tip the balance so i give it joe on aggression.

MJ223
11-06-2011, 07:39 PM
Hey fellas its a Joe Frazier appreciation thread in NSB and I would greatly appreciate it if you guys stopped by.

notrecondite
11-14-2012, 02:59 AM
Okay... chew on this: lol

1-Ali
2-Ali
3-Ali
4-Frazier
5-Ali
6-Ali
7-Ali
8-Frazier
9-Ali (had Frazier going, and hard to see how Ali could lose the fight at this point using round by round judging)
10-Even
11-Frazier
12-Frazier
13-Even
14-Ali
15-Frazier

Before you rail on me, probably at least one judge saw it my way in each of the rounds. Ali owned the first nine rounds, and Frazier owned the last eight. Round by round scoring, Ali wins easy. Now, forget about judging, who looked like they won... Frazier! lol Well, not so much how his face looked, remember that picture of his face? "Battered face of a winner" Ali beat the crap out of Frazier. Frazier took a brutal beating. Hard punches in bunches. Ali really hammered him. Frazier was just such a tough SOB, and he was so psyched for Ali... everyone was. Everyone fought the fight of their lives against Ali. Other things to consider... Ali looked worse many times. And, did not put that kind of hurt on the opponents he beat. The Jones fight was much closer, IMO. I would have had no problem with that fight being judged against Ali. No wonder everyone thought Liston would kill him... he did not look good against Jones at all. Ali was a giant killer, but smaller faster guys gave him trouble. And, especially those not easily discouraged, and Frazier was definitely not easliy discouraged. Frazier was fast, had lots of head movement and had a powerful left hook... and supreme determination and again totally psyched for Ali. All of this was nothing new in Ali's career, but usually he looked good enough in the final couple of rounds to get the decision. If Ali hadn't been dropped in the 15th, and had a decent round, I just can't see how he lost. But, the judges show that they would have had him the loser anyway. But, I don't think they would have turned those cards in. If Ali had had a good 15th round like he had so many times before, they would have had to give it to him. He really just beat the stuffing out of Frazier for at least 8 rounds. And, Frazier =never= looked the same after that fight. Lucky for him he never fought Norton, Shavers, or Holmes after that. Ali did, beating all but Holmes, he was just way too old and gone by then.

So it definitely looked to me like Frazier won... but Frazier is the guy that really took the beatdown. Using a round by round judging system, Ali won 8-5-2. Of course I might be a little biased. lol

I have watched this fight over 100 times! I have scored it different almost everytime.I have scoed it 10-5 Frazier and 7-7-1,and anywhere in between.

I watched the fight again last night.....

1-Ali
2-Ali
3-Even
4-Ali
5-Ali.....Frazier gave that round away.
6-Frazier
7-Frazier
8-Frazier
9-Ali......Ali hurt Frazier,and had him in trouble
10-Frazier
11-Frazier....Frazier hurt Ali badly,and almost knocked him out.
12-Frazier
13-Even
14-Ali
15-Frazier knocks Ali down,and then hurts him again and again.

7-6-2-Frazier....But on points Frazier wins clearly by 3 points.

Please score the fight by rounds.

Thank You

Barn
11-14-2012, 03:37 AM
Had Frazier up by 2.

T.Horton
11-14-2012, 04:38 AM
Okay... chew on this: lol

1-Ali
2-Ali
3-Ali
4-Frazier
5-Ali
6-Ali
7-Ali
8-Frazier
9-Ali (had Frazier going, and hard to see how Ali could lose the fight at this point using round by round judging)
10-Even
11-Frazier
12-Frazier
13-Even
14-Ali
15-Frazier

Before you rail on me, probably at least one judge saw it my way in each of the rounds. Ali owned the first nine rounds, and Frazier owned the last eight. Round by round scoring, Ali wins easy. Now, forget about judging, who looked like they won... Frazier! lol Well, not so much how his face looked, remember that picture of his face? "Battered face of a winner" Ali beat the crap out of Frazier. Frazier took a brutal beating. Hard punches in bunches. Ali really hammered him. Frazier was just such a tough SOB, and he was so psyched for Ali... everyone was. Everyone fought the fight of their lives against Ali. Other things to consider... Ali looked worse many times. And, did not put that kind of hurt on the opponents he beat. The Jones fight was much closer, IMO. I would have had no problem with that fight being judged against Ali. No wonder everyone thought Liston would kill him... he did not look good against Jones at all. Ali was a giant killer, but smaller faster guys gave him trouble. And, especially those not easily discouraged, and Frazier was definitely not easliy discouraged. Frazier was fast, had lots of head movement and had a powerful left hook... and supreme determination and again totally psyched for Ali. All of this was nothing new in Ali's career, but usually he looked good enough in the final couple of rounds to get the decision. If Ali hadn't been dropped in the 15th, and had a decent round, I just can't see how he lost. But, the judges show that they would have had him the loser anyway. But, I don't think they would have turned those cards in. If Ali had had a good 15th round like he had so many times before, they would have had to give it to him. He really just beat the stuffing out of Frazier for at least 8 rounds. And, Frazier =never= looked the same after that fight. Lucky for him he never fought Norton, Shavers, or Holmes after that. Ali did, beating all but Holmes, he was just way too old and gone by then.

So it definitely looked to me like Frazier won... but Frazier is the guy that really took the beatdown. Using a round by round judging system, Ali won 8-5-2. Of course I might be a little biased. lol

very nice first post.

notrecondite
11-15-2012, 08:54 PM
very nice first post.

Thanks! But that makes us 16,046 to 2 at this point. I think you won this round by round and on points. lol

pepperfoot
11-18-2012, 03:01 PM
one of the best fights ever no doubed

notrecondite
11-18-2013, 01:41 AM
One other reason you can't blame Ali for losing to Joe the first fight... Joe's head movement. Non stop side to side with some up and down mixed in. Ali was so good against so many because of a straight quick punch. Shortest line between two points, you know? With Frazier it was much more of a challenge to hit him squarely with a straight punch. So oftentimes he threw a babyhook/cross type of punch in order to have the arc of the punch going in the direction of the head movement and make more contacts per punch. Problem was it wasn't Ali's punch and it didn't land with much force.