View Full Version : Fighters who were destined to become ATG's, but ???


mickey malone
03-26-2010, 02:34 AM
Certainly, there'll be differences in opinion on who and who wouldn't have become an ATG, but for reasons out of our control, a lot of fighters who potentially had it in them, failed to make it..

Here's just a few to get started who I feel would have attained ATG status:-

Dave Sands - Terrific fighter from Australia who had an Aborigine mother and a Peurto Rican father.. He won domestic titles at MW LHW HW, and had just entered into his prime.. He'd beaten fighters such as Bobo Olson and Henry Brimm to become the no1 MW contender.. Sands was in training for a crack at Randy Turpin for the undisputed title, which had become vacant in the wake of Ray Robinson's Dec 1952 retirement..
Sadly, before the fight could take place, Sands was involved in an accident..
He was on the way to the gym when his 5 ton truck rolled down an embankment and overturned.. Sands died from his injuries and was only 26 at the time..
I've never seen him fight, so some input from Benny and Rooster would come in handy here, but i've read lots of good things about him, and it appears he was an ATG in the making for sure.. In the mould of Les Darcy?.. Well there's definitely a lot of similarities.... Or isn't there?
His record reads an impressive 93-8-2 with 62 KO's..

Ike Ibeabuchi - I think had he been a more level headed individual, we could have been looking at the 2nd coming of Sonny Liston.. I don't believe he'd even entered his prime, and was already handling the likes of Byrd and Tua.. He didn't appear to have any fundumental ring weakness either, just a shame about his personal life.. Other than that, I think he had all the tools, be interesting to see how some of you guys rated him?

Toney Ayala Jr - This man was a fvckin animal, in aswell as out of the ring.. Similar to Ibeabuchi, in that he was kicking ass way b4 time and fast becoming the most feared 154 ever.. Also similar to Ibeabuchi, in getting hooked up with the law, but after seeing what be could do as a pudgy 38 year old, and after 17 years in the slammer, he wasn't half bad!.. It was enough to make me think, he would have had a very successful and prosperous 15 year career!

There's plenty more, I know... So more suggestions and comments on the above is what I'm looking for.... Regards mm

sonnyboyx2
03-26-2010, 03:23 AM
Certainly, there'll be differences in opinion on who and who wouldn't have become an ATG, but for reasons out of our control, a lot of fighters who potentially had it in them, failed to make it..

Here's just a few to get started who I feel would have attained ATG status:-

Dave Sands - Terrific fighter from Australia who had an Aborigine mother and a Peurto Rican father.. He won domestic titles at MW LHW HW, and had just entered into his prime.. He'd beaten fighters such as Bobo Olson and Henry Brimm to become the no1 MW contender.. Sands was in training for a crack at Randy Turpin for the undisputed title, which had become vacant in the wake of Ray Robinson's Dec 1952 retirement..
Sadly, before the fight could take place, Sands was involved in an accident..
He was on the way to the gym when his 5 ton truck rolled down an embankment and overturned.. Sands died from his injuries and was only 26 at the time..
I've never seen him fight, so some input from Benny and Rooster would come in handy here, but i've read lots of good things about him, and it appears he was an ATG in the making for sure.. In the mould of Les Darcy?.. Well there's definitely a lot of similarities.... Or isn't there?
His record reads an impressive 93-8-2 with 62 KO's..

Ike Ibeabuchi - I think had he been a more level headed individual, we could have been looking at the 2nd coming of Sonny Liston.. I don't believe he'd even entered his prime, and was already handling the likes of Byrd and Tua.. He didn't appear to have any fundumental ring weakness either, just a shame about his personal life.. Other than that, I think he had all the tools, be interesting to see how some of you guys rated him?

Toney Ayala Jr - This man was a fvckin animal, in aswell as out of the ring.. Similar to Ibeabuchi, in that he was kicking ass way b4 time and fast becoming the most feared 154 ever.. Also similar to Ibeabuchi, in getting hooked up with the law, but after seeing what be could do as a pudgy 38 year old, and after 17 years in the slammer, he wasn't half bad!.. It was enough to make me think, he would have had a very successful and prosperous 15 year career!

There's plenty more, I know... So more suggestions and comments on the above is what I'm looking for.... Regards mm

3 very good choices micky... Ibeabuchi could have been the first $i billion fighter, he had it all, yet threw it all away, it is only my opinion but i feel Ike would have cleaned out the division, beating Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis & The Klitschko brothers.. Ike was exciting and the boxing media and fans was just starting to sit back and watch his emergence into the Big Time when he threw it all away...

a couple of under-achievers due to alcohol
Mathew Hilton & Kevin Finnigan

oaklandstephen
03-26-2010, 04:26 AM
3 very good choices micky... Ibeabuchi could have been the first $i billion fighter, he had it all, yet threw it all away, it is only my opinion but i feel Ike would have cleaned out the division, beating Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis & The Klitschko brothers.. Ike was exciting and the boxing media and fans was just starting to sit back and watch his emergence into the Big Time when he threw it all away...

a couple of under-achievers due to alcohol
Mathew Hilton & Kevin Finnigan

holyfield, bowe, lewis, and especially tyson would have f**ked ike up big time! IMO ike is wayy overrated, just because he has no losses and a buch of kos. and his fight with tua was a controversial decison.

mickey malone
03-26-2010, 08:42 AM
holyfield, bowe, lewis, and especially tyson would have f**ked ike up big time! IMO ike is wayy overrated, just because he has no losses and a buch of kos. and his fight with tua was a controversial decison.
From what I've seen, they'd have had all they could deal with..
The 1999 version of Chris Byrd, you couldn't hit with a handful of rice, but Ibeabuchi hit him at will and absolutely trashed him in the 5th.. Byrd went on to become a 2 time champion and was'nt stopped for another 7 years after that..
Ike fought Tua in only his 16th pro fight, landing a record number of punches in almost every round.. Furthermore, he was just as fresh in 12th as he was the 1st and came closer than anyone to stopping Tua in a thrilling final round..

I'm not rating him on a bunch of KO's.. I'm rating him as a 20 fight novice, and specifically on his performances aginst two prime, proven and tested world class operators.. I'm also rating him on the contrast of styles he faced, and how he dealt with them.. Byrd is one of the best defensive HW's since Jack Johnson, and Tua punches every bit as hard as a prime Tyson..
So I have to disagree.. For a fighter who was probably pre-prime, I don't think he's at all overrated.. I'm also pretty certain we never got to see anywhere near the best of him..

CarlosG815
03-26-2010, 09:46 AM
Everybody is saying Ike threw it all away, but wasn't he a mental psychopath? I thought he has serious mental problems that caused crazy fits of rage and even heard voices.

sonnyboyx2
03-26-2010, 12:35 PM
From what I've seen, they'd have had all they could deal with..
The 1999 version of Chris Byrd, you couldn't hit with a handful of rice, but Ibeabuchi hit him at will and absolutely trashed him in the 5th.. Byrd went on to become a 2 time champion and was'nt stopped for another 7 years after that..
Ike fought Tua in only his 16th pro fight, landing a record number of punches in almost every round.. Furthermore, he was just as fresh in 12th as he was the 1st and came closer than anyone to stopping Tua in a thrilling final round..

I'm not rating him on a bunch of KO's.. I'm rating him as a 20 fight novice, and specifically on his performances aginst two prime, proven and tested world class operators.. I'm also rating him on the contrast of styles he faced, and how he dealt with them.. Byrd is one of the best defensive HW's since Jack Johnson, and Tua punches every bit as hard as a prime Tyson..
So I have to disagree.. For a fighter who was probably pre-prime, I don't think he's at all overrated.. I'm also pretty certain we never got to see anywhere near the best of him..

i couldn`t have put it better.. well said micky

geribeetus
03-26-2010, 12:54 PM
maybe ike could've at least been a contender, but i have to think LL would've done a tua on him.

oldgringo
03-26-2010, 02:03 PM
From what I've seen, they'd have had all they could deal with..
The 1999 version of Chris Byrd, you couldn't hit with a handful of rice, but Ibeabuchi hit him at will and absolutely trashed him in the 5th.. Byrd went on to become a 2 time champion and was'nt stopped for another 7 years after that..
Ike fought Tua in only his 16th pro fight, landing a record number of punches in almost every round.. Furthermore, he was just as fresh in 12th as he was the 1st and came closer than anyone to stopping Tua in a thrilling final round..

I'm not rating him on a bunch of KO's.. I'm rating him as a 20 fight novice, and specifically on his performances aginst two prime, proven and tested world class operators.. I'm also rating him on the contrast of styles he faced, and how he dealt with them.. Byrd is one of the best defensive HW's since Jack Johnson, and Tua punches every bit as hard as a prime Tyson..
So I have to disagree.. For a fighter who was probably pre-prime, I don't think he's at all overrated.. I'm also pretty certain we never got to see anywhere near the best of him..

Well put. I think it's reasonable to assess Ike on the skills he presented in the ring and the versatility he showed in a short span of time. He showed a pretty rare blend of speed, power and timing in the ring and possessed a solid base of fundamental ability as well.

I might throw Tyrone Everett into this conversation. The guy boxed a prime Alfredo Escalera's ears off but was given the **** end of the decision. Then as most of us know he was killed in a domestic dispute. Only 24 years old...damn shame.

Who knows what Everett could have done though. He would have been a brutal fight for Arguello with his skills out of the southpaw stance and overall speed/power. I can't see any of the other top common contenders besting him at the time.

mickey malone
03-26-2010, 11:34 PM
Well put. I think it's reasonable to assess Ike on the skills he presented in the ring and the versatility he showed in a short span of time. He showed a pretty rare blend of speed, power and timing in the ring and possessed a solid base of fundamental ability as well.

I might throw Tyrone Everett into this conversation. The guy boxed a prime Alfredo Escalera's ears off but was given the **** end of the decision. Then as most of us know he was killed in a domestic dispute. Only 24 years old...damn shame.

Who knows what Everett could have done though. He would have been a brutal fight for Arguello with his skills out of the southpaw stance and overall speed/power. I can't see any of the other top common contenders besting him at the time.
Good call and a tragic shame.. Very slick southpaw, and dead-cert champ who I believe got shot by a woman over something?

BennyST
03-27-2010, 05:17 AM
Certainly, there'll be differences in opinion on who and who wouldn't have become an ATG, but for reasons out of our control, a lot of fighters who potentially had it in them, failed to make it..

Here's just a few to get started who I feel would have attained ATG status:-

Dave Sands - Terrific fighter from Australia who had an Aborigine mother and a Peurto Rican father.. He won domestic titles at MW LHW HW, and had just entered into his prime.. He'd beaten fighters such as Bobo Olson and Henry Brimm to become the no1 MW contender.. Sands was in training for a crack at Randy Turpin for the undisputed title, which had become vacant in the wake of Ray Robinson's Dec 1952 retirement..
Sadly, before the fight could take place, Sands was involved in an accident..
He was on the way to the gym when his 5 ton truck rolled down an embankment and overturned.. Sands died from his injuries and was only 26 at the time..
I've never seen him fight, so some input from Benny and Rooster would come in handy here, but i've read lots of good things about him, and it appears he was an ATG in the making for sure.. In the mould of Les Darcy?.. Well there's definitely a lot of similarities.... Or isn't there?
His record reads an impressive 93-8-2 with 62 KO's..

Ike Ibeabuchi - I think had he been a more level headed individual, we could have been looking at the 2nd coming of Sonny Liston.. I don't believe he'd even entered his prime, and was already handling the likes of Byrd and Tua.. He didn't appear to have any fundumental ring weakness either, just a shame about his personal life.. Other than that, I think he had all the tools, be interesting to see how some of you guys rated him?

Toney Ayala Jr - This man was a fvckin animal, in aswell as out of the ring.. Similar to Ibeabuchi, in that he was kicking ass way b4 time and fast becoming the most feared 154 ever.. Also similar to Ibeabuchi, in getting hooked up with the law, but after seeing what be could do as a pudgy 38 year old, and after 17 years in the slammer, he wasn't half bad!.. It was enough to make me think, he would have had a very successful and prosperous 15 year career!

There's plenty more, I know... So more suggestions and comments on the above is what I'm looking for.... Regards mm

Yeah man, Sands was amazing. He was born into it. His whole family were all well known, highly ranked boxers over here and there was quite a lot, about six if I remember correctly.

As always happens, he died just as things were really starting to happen for him. He had become known as one of the best fighters in the world in any weight class, and over here held the MW, LHW and HW titles simultaneously as well as being the British and Australasian MW champ.

What most people don't know is that he was in line to fight Ray Robinson for a long time but it never came about, when he was rated the No. 3 contender possibly because he was seen as too much of a threat and in a fight that was meant to be Sands there, Robinson got beaten by Turpin instead. His manager left him after that and he was again being set up with Robinson for a fight when he died but it was commented that Robinson wanted too much money for the fight.

A very slick counter puncher but was very aggressive and fought off the front foot a lot. Exciting fighter and a very sad story.

An interesting sidenote: When 'Bobo' Olson won the MW title, he actually dedicated it to Dave Sands and said "..this title really belongs to the great Dave Sands who would have been the true champion if he were still here with us" as he had beaten the bollocks off Olson in two fights worse than anyone. He had a killer left hook, great chin, great power and was very fast and well skilled defensively. One of the best Australia has ever produced and like Darcy, his best was never seen.

As already noted, in 110 fights he only lost eight times...or seven...I think. He had about 65 KO's. Amazing fighter in an amazing era, taken in his prime much too early.

mickey malone
03-27-2010, 08:44 AM
Yeah man, Sands was amazing. He was born into it. His whole family were all well known, highly ranked boxers over here and there was quite a lot, about six if I remember correctly.

As always happens, he died just as things were really starting to happen for him. He had become known as one of the best fighters in the world in any weight class, and over here held the MW, LHW and HW titles simultaneously as well as being the British and Australasian MW champ.

What most people don't know is that he was in line to fight Ray Robinson for a long time but it never came about, when he was rated the No. 3 contender possibly because he was seen as too much of a threat and in a fight that was meant to be Sands there, Robinson got beaten by Turpin instead. His manager left him after that and he was again being set up with Robinson for a fight when he died but it was commented that Robinson wanted too much money for the fight.

A very slick counter puncher but was very aggressive and fought off the front foot a lot. Exciting fighter and a very sad story.

An interesting sidenote: When 'Bobo' Olson won the MW title, he actually dedicated it to Dave Sands and said "..this title really belongs to the great Dave Sands who would have been the true champion if he were still here with us" as he had beaten the bollocks off Olson in two fights worse than anyone. He had a killer left hook, great chin, great power and was very fast and well skilled defensively. One of the best Australia has ever produced and like Darcy, his best was never seen.

As already noted, in 110 fights he only lost eight times...or seven...I think. He had about 65 KO's. Amazing fighter in an amazing era, taken in his prime much too early.
Cheers Benny!.. I knew he was special...

wmute
03-27-2010, 09:53 AM
I am ashamed. I never saw Sands fight, and I can't find anytying on yt, besides a footage of australian fighters. Any of the ratio torrents site would have footage of him?

mickey malone
03-27-2010, 11:40 PM
I am ashamed. I never saw Sands fight, and I can't find anytying on yt, besides a footage of australian fighters. Any of the ratio torrents site would have footage of him?
He's the main reason i did the thread, for that very reason too..
I don't think there is any footage on him.. I'll PM Rooster.. He's an Aussie with a massive film collection...

t.boone.pickenz
03-27-2010, 11:50 PM
tony ayala :nonono: .....could have been part of the mix

mickey malone
03-28-2010, 12:25 AM
tony ayala :nonono: .....could have been part of the mix
I'd say there was a good chance he'd have edged Duran out of the fab four.. Similar fighter, but naturally bigger..