View Full Version : Joe Frazier beats both Klitschkos


them_apples
03-24-2010, 02:15 AM
Fraziers style would be a nightmare for the K bros. They are very upright and don't tuck their chins, and they don't seem to like fighting inside. Everyone they face fights them at their reach. Frazier would be inside and never take a step back. I'm not so certain they would even have any punching power in close.

Flab
03-24-2010, 03:12 AM
Only reason I gave this thread a reply, is to let you know I rated it 1 star.

Goodbye/

TBear
03-24-2010, 03:23 AM
Most people look at Frazier in hindsight and see Foreman bulldozing him. Frazier in his time was very durable and a vey hard puncher. He also had the ability to fight for 15 hard rounds. Those are the things that make this possible. Could he do it? probably, but it is hard to tell because the fought in different eras, but I do know if he was champ today he would certianly dominate the group of contenders we've seen fight the Klitshko's.

Sugarj
03-24-2010, 08:33 AM
Interesting! I honestly think that Frazier's style or peak Tyson's would be a good approach against either Klitschko. Up close with pressure and good head movement.

I do think that peak Frazier (around 204Lbs) would have trouble absorbing Wlad's or Vitali's Sunday punches though. But stylistically yes.....its the approach I'd take.

The_Demon
03-24-2010, 08:41 AM
frazier would destroy them,hes skilled tough relentless and like you said hes a stylistic nightmare for the klits

sonnyboyx2
03-24-2010, 08:41 AM
Interesting! I honestly think that Frazier's style or peak Tyson's would be a good approach against either Klitschko. Up close with pressure and good head movement.

I do think that peak Frazier (around 204Lbs) would have trouble absorbing Wlad's or Vitali's Sunday punches though. But stylistically yes.....its the approach I'd take.

The Klitschko brothers dont poleaxe their opponents, so i question their KO power to beat Frazier, yet Frazier was a murderous puncher

Dynamite Kid
03-24-2010, 08:48 AM
Fraziers style would be a nightmare for the K bros. They are very upright and don't tuck their chins, and they don't seem to like fighting inside. Everyone they face fights them at their reach. Frazier would be inside and never take a step back. I'm not so certain they would even have any punching power in close.

I dont think people do fight them at their reach out of choice, when you box someone who has a reach advantage over you you have to respect the distance then its down to you to find away inside without getting nailed, which is harder than anticipated against either Klit.

rsf
03-24-2010, 05:04 PM
frazier bobbing and weving would be a knightmare for the he gets inside and kills the body and chops them down

carlos slim
03-24-2010, 07:25 PM
vitali gets the chuvalo treatment.....wlad gets the brewster......

Ziggy Stardust
03-24-2010, 07:31 PM
Fraziers style would be a nightmare for the K bros. They are very upright and don't tuck their chins, and they don't seem to like fighting inside. Everyone they face fights them at their reach. Frazier would be inside and never take a step back. I'm not so certain they would even have any punching power in close.

You do realize the amount of hate you're going to generate for yourself with this thread don't you? :D

Poet

AKATheMack
03-24-2010, 07:41 PM
All that gameplan sounds real nice, but there was no taking into account how well he deals with their punches on his way in.

HitmanHattonAY
03-24-2010, 07:44 PM
i agree, joe frazier would beat both klitsckhos !!

fight_professor
03-24-2010, 08:10 PM
They are mechanical and slow. And Wlad has a poor chin. Smoke would spark Wlad and I reckon wear Vitali down. Joe had a solid chin, awesome heart and great tenacity.

bojangles1987
03-24-2010, 08:14 PM
Fraziers style would be a nightmare for the K bros. They are very upright and don't tuck their chins, and they don't seem to like fighting inside. Everyone they face fights them at their reach. Frazier would be inside and never take a step back. I'm not so certain they would even have any punching power in close.

I completely agree, Frazier has all the fundamentals the Klitschkos never have to deal with from today's fighters, along with the skill and determination. Frazier would get past the jab and work inside, completely turning the size difference into a detriment for Wlad and Vitali.

them_apples
03-24-2010, 11:28 PM
You do realize the amount of hate you're going to generate for yourself with this thread don't you? :D

Poet

truth hurts sometimes lol

Brockton Lip
03-25-2010, 12:18 AM
I'd pick Frazier to stop Wlad. Against Vitali, I'm unsure who would win but I think Frazier's activity and heart may give him a decision win.

One more round
03-25-2010, 12:37 AM
If Frazier could shake off a few shots without too much trouble
I'd pick him to win vs either

CarlosG815
03-25-2010, 01:10 AM
I can finally agree with them_apples. Joe lights both of them guys up, KO's Wlad before 8 and ends Vitali in the final rounds. :boxing:

r.burgundy
03-25-2010, 01:15 AM
Only reason I gave this thread a reply, is to let you know I rated it 1 star.

Goodbye/

lmao.i need to talk to threadstarters dealer.if anybody thinks frazier would have a remote chance of beating a klitscho,you are nuttier than squirrel ****

CarlosG815
03-25-2010, 01:25 AM
Only reason I gave this thread a reply, is to let you know I rated it 1 star.

Goodbye/

GTFO you fat Euro-boxing nut hugger. Stay in the limey lang.

r.burgundy
03-25-2010, 01:25 AM
Fraziers style would be a nightmare for the K bros. They are very upright and don't tuck their chins, and they don't seem to like fighting inside. Everyone they face fights them at their reach. Frazier would be inside and never take a step back. I'm not so certain they would even have any punching power in close.

fraziers style would be absolutely perfect for a klitscho,just like it was perfect for foreman,and just like it would be perfect for any big guy with power.frazier went to the rocky balboa school of defense.foreman was a crude slugger and he damn near decapitated frazier,i can only imagine what some1 wit some technique would do

CarlosG815
03-25-2010, 01:30 AM
fraziers style would be absolutely perfect for a klitscho,just like it was perfect for foreman,and just like it would be perfect for any big guy with power.frazier went to the rocky balboa school of defense.foreman was a crude slugger and he damn near decapitated frazier,i can only imagine what some1 wit some technique would do

Please don't compare a Klitschko with George Foreman. Thanks.

r.burgundy
03-25-2010, 01:56 AM
Please don't compare a Klitschko with George Foreman. Thanks.

face the facts man.these dudes would dominate anybody out the 70's easily.and skill wise,both are light years ahead of foreman

CarlosG815
03-25-2010, 02:15 AM
face the facts man.these dudes would dominate anybody out the 70's easily.and skill wise,both are light years ahead of foreman

George Foreman would KO both Klitschko's inside of 5 rounds.

Rich.r
03-25-2010, 03:02 AM
LMAO harsh

Equinox
03-25-2010, 03:09 AM
It could be possible, but can Joe back them off for 12? I dont think so and I think either Klit breaks him down, he dont have the skills as the other great heavy weights and the size.

Equinox
03-25-2010, 03:09 AM
George Foreman would KO both Klitschko's inside of 5 rounds.Now THAT is a fact.

JAB5239
03-25-2010, 04:00 AM
face the facts man.these dudes would dominate anybody out the 70's easily.and skill wise,both are light years ahead of foreman

How can anybody "face facts" when you don't present any? You say things and just expect them to be accepted. Don't work that way Ron.

wmute
03-25-2010, 04:27 AM
I think Vitali beats Joe in a beatiful fight.

I am pretty sure Wlad would get unpleasantly sparked.

Snopkins
03-25-2010, 05:16 AM
I have to disagree here.frazier wouldn't even step in the ring with Wladimir Klitschko.Regardless of Wlad's weak chin and poor stamina,the man has knockout power in both hands and frazier spent his entire career ducking punchers.frazier isn't as tough or durable as Lamon brewster and wouldn't take that much to finally get to Wlad.Seeing as this is a fantasy match,I would fancy Wladimir to knock "Smokey" Joe out within the first three rounds.


In Vitali Klitschko,frazier is dealing with a fighter who does have stamina,who is durable and takes as good a punch as any heavyweight in the history of the sport of boxing.Vitali isn't the puncher that Wladimir is,but he is still heavy handed and unlike Wlad is willing to commit to his offense and not simply pace himself.frazier wouldn't be able to sustain the constant jabs and right hands crashing into his cranium.Vitali cracks frazier's glass jaw and puts him down a couple of times before frazier retreats to his corner and tells his corner he wants no more.

EzzardFan
03-25-2010, 05:52 AM
The thing I like about the Klitschkos is that I can cook a pizza between them starting their punches and them landing...

I think that Frazier would easily get inside, the main problem being that he tended to take too many shots to get inside and this is where he'd be vulnerable to these monsters. I'd still pick him to beat them though, just not simultaneously LOL.

Inside fighting is a long lost art, it pretty much died out in the early 60s. The referees these days break fighters apart too soon, that's a big part of the problem. Frazier wasn't as skilled as the fighters that went before him but had far superior inside skills to today's fighters. The Klitschkos have never encountered a fighter with those inside skills.

The fight I really would like to see would be Archie Moore vs a Klitschko. Archie's defense would be perfect for them, and the Old Mongoose was skilled at working his way inside to find the button.

I had an interesting couple of sparring sessions these past two weeks, with an opponent 6 years my junior (I'm 39) that outweighed me by 25lbs and had much longer reach (everyone has a longer reach than me I'm 6' & 175lbs with a 68" reach). The first time I tried to play stick and run and he handed me my ass big time, opening up on me with these huge swinging bombs, stopping me cold and cutting me down. The second time I kept going inside him using the cross armed guard and hitting him with inside punches, uppercuts, short straights, inside cross, short hooks, and even a few overhand shots, alternating my attack between head and body. I wasn't swarming on him just pecking away carefully placing my shots so that they counted. He could barely hit me, was too off balance to clinch, and actually surrendered after 3 rounds looking thoroughly disillusioned. We were wearing head guards and I was holding back a little, but found his button several times. Like many big tall fighters he had a tendency to move his head up from punches exposing his chin. The Klitschkos share this trait.

My point is that old fashioned approach works really well against larger fighters with a reach advantage, if you make it past their jab (the easy part) they try and chop you down with big swings (although they probably consider those to be short hooks LOL) which is essentially what Foreman did to Frazier, but Ancient Archie's cross armed defence is water tight against that type of assault.

One more round
03-25-2010, 06:26 AM
I have to disagree here.frazier wouldn't even step in the ring with Wladimir Klitschko.Regardless of Wlad's weak chin and poor stamina,the man has knockout power in both hands and frazier spent his entire career ducking punchers.frazier isn't as tough or durable as Lamon brewster and wouldn't take that much to finally get to Wlad.Seeing as this is a fantasy match,I would fancy Wladimir to knock "Smokey" Joe out within the first three rounds.


In Vitali Klitschko,frazier is dealing with a fighter who does have stamina,who is durable and takes as good a punch as any heavyweight in the history of the sport of boxing.Vitali isn't the puncher that Wladimir is,but he is still heavy handed and unlike Wlad is willing to commit to his offense and not simply pace himself.frazier wouldn't be able to sustain the constant jabs and right hands crashing into his cranium.Vitali cracks frazier's glass jaw and puts him down a couple of times before frazier retreats to his corner and tells his corner he wants no more.

And, as usual when we discuss a Frazier related topic, Snopkins' opinion is null and void.

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 03:20 PM
George Foreman would KO both Klitschko's inside of 5 rounds.

the same way he k.o'd jimmy ellis huh

sure buddy..foreman was very vulnerable to boxers and its not like his chin was made of steel.what you people seem tto not understand is how unique the klistschos are physically.young george foreman was a taller version of sam peter.somebody who could maul you physically but if you can box,he's in for a long night.how many times was he on the deck against ron lyle?and you seem to think he's gonna take these guys punches lmao.you cant be serious

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 03:28 PM
I have to disagree here.frazier wouldn't even step in the ring with Wladimir Klitschko.Regardless of Wlad's weak chin and poor stamina,the man has knockout power in both hands and frazier spent his entire career ducking punchers.frazier isn't as tough or durable as Lamon brewster and wouldn't take that much to finally get to Wlad.Seeing as this is a fantasy match,I would fancy Wladimir to knock "Smokey" Joe out within the first three rounds.


In Vitali Klitschko,frazier is dealing with a fighter who does have stamina,who is durable and takes as good a punch as any heavyweight in the history of the sport of boxing.Vitali isn't the puncher that Wladimir is,but he is still heavy handed and unlike Wlad is willing to commit to his offense and not simply pace himself.frazier wouldn't be able to sustain the constant jabs and right hands crashing into his cranium.Vitali cracks frazier's glass jaw and puts him down a couple of times before frazier retreats to his corner and tells his corner he wants no more.

exactly.frazier would get decapitated by 1 of those guys and there arent many heavys today i would favor him against.stylistically,frazier is perfect for anybody who can punch.i dont think frazier wanted any parts of lyle,norton,or shavers.had he fought those guys id have alot more respect for him and it would be easier to tell how he would do.

but fact is,the 1 guy he fought,who had a big punch,mowed his sloppy ass down in spectaculous fashion.i hear 9 year olds yellin out "down goes frazier" when somebody falls

there is absolutely nothing to suggest that frazier could compete with 1 of these guys.he's famous for having 3 great fights with the feather fisted ali.that is all.end of his story

mickey malone
03-31-2010, 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snopkins
I have to disagree here.frazier wouldn't even step in the ring with Wladimir Klitschko.Regardless of Wlad's weak chin and poor stamina,the man has knockout power in both hands and frazier spent his entire career ducking punchers.frazier isn't as tough or durable as Lamon brewster and wouldn't take that much to finally get to Wlad.Seeing as this is a fantasy match,I would fancy Wladimir to knock "Smokey" Joe out within the first three rounds.


In Vitali Klitschko,frazier is dealing with a fighter who does have stamina,who is durable and takes as good a punch as any heavyweight in the history of the sport of boxing.Vitali isn't the puncher that Wladimir is,but he is still heavy handed and unlike Wlad is willing to commit to his offense and not simply pace himself.frazier wouldn't be able to sustain the constant jabs and right hands crashing into his cranium.Vitali cracks frazier's glass jaw and puts him down a couple of times before frazier retreats to his corner and tells his corner he wants no more.

Quote;r.burgundy
exactly.frazier would get decapitated by 1 of those guys and there arent many heavys today i would favor him against.stylistically,frazier is perfect for anybody who can punch.i dont think frazier wanted any parts of lyle,norton,or shavers.had he fought those guys id have alot more respect for him and it would be easier to tell how he would do.

but fact is,the 1 guy he fought,who had a big punch,mowed his sloppy ass down in spectaculous fashion.i hear 9 year olds yellin out "down goes frazier" when somebody falls

there is absolutely nothing to suggest that frazier could compete with 1 of these guys.he's famous for having 3 great fights with the feather fisted ali.that is all.end of his story

Note the close comma's and fullstops.. Must be a common trait amongst the Frazier hate club foundation..

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snopkins
I have to disagree here.frazier wouldn't even step in the ring with Wladimir Klitschko.Regardless of Wlad's weak chin and poor stamina,the man has knockout power in both hands and frazier spent his entire career ducking punchers.frazier isn't as tough or durable as Lamon brewster and wouldn't take that much to finally get to Wlad.Seeing as this is a fantasy match,I would fancy Wladimir to knock "Smokey" Joe out within the first three rounds.


In Vitali Klitschko,frazier is dealing with a fighter who does have stamina,who is durable and takes as good a punch as any heavyweight in the history of the sport of boxing.Vitali isn't the puncher that Wladimir is,but he is still heavy handed and unlike Wlad is willing to commit to his offense and not simply pace himself.frazier wouldn't be able to sustain the constant jabs and right hands crashing into his cranium.Vitali cracks frazier's glass jaw and puts him down a couple of times before frazier retreats to his corner and tells his corner he wants no more.

Quote;r.burgundy
exactly.frazier would get decapitated by 1 of those guys and there arent many heavys today i would favor him against.stylistically,frazier is perfect for anybody who can punch.i dont think frazier wanted any parts of lyle,norton,or shavers.had he fought those guys id have alot more respect for him and it would be easier to tell how he would do.

but fact is,the 1 guy he fought,who had a big punch,mowed his sloppy ass down in spectaculous fashion.i hear 9 year olds yellin out "down goes frazier" when somebody falls

there is absolutely nothing to suggest that frazier could compete with 1 of these guys.he's famous for having 3 great fights with the feather fisted ali.that is all.end of his story

Note the close comma's and fullstops.. Must be a common trait amongst the Frazier hate club foundation..

you lost me there.

i dont hate smokin joe.he's just a bum.talking about him reminds me of what toney said after tarver beat roy.he said"he's a c level fighter who lucked up and beat a A level fighter".that sums up smokin joe

fight_professor
03-31-2010, 04:04 PM
Now THAT is a fact.

There is no way on Earth either Klit could stand up to Foreman's brutality. He'd blow glass jawed Wlad out inside 3, and break Vitali down too.

On the issue, Smoke has the perfect style to beat Klits. Bob and wave, get inside the jabs and explode. If he managed to circumnavigate Ali's jab, with all its speed and precision, those guys jabs would just be side stepped.

:boxing:

res
03-31-2010, 04:10 PM
the same way he k.o'd jimmy ellis huh


Jimmy Ellis? Jimmy Ellis was about 10 times faster than Klitchko and with much less power, he is a bad analogy. When you are as slow as the Klitchkos analogies with classical Boxer punchers don't work.


sure buddy..foreman was very vulnerable to boxers and its not like his chin was made of steel.what you people seem tto not understand is how unique the klistschos are physically.young george foreman was a taller version of sam peter.somebody who could maul you physically but if you can box,he's in for a long night.how many times was he on the deck against ron lyle?and you seem to think he's gonna take these guys punches lmao.you cant be serious

No, Foreman was vulnerable to Boxer punchers that didn't move like Molasses, and even they had to resort to tactics like laying on the ropes and covering up or else running in and clinching for most of the night.

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 04:11 PM
There is no way on Earth either Klit could stand up to Foreman's brutality. He'd blow glass jawed Wlad out inside 3, and break Vitali down too.

On the issue, Smoke has the perfect style to beat Klits. Bob and wave, get inside the jabs and explode. If he managed to circumnavigate Ali's jab, with all its speed and precision, those guys jabs would just be side stepped.

:boxing:

and george foremans chin was made of steele huh?

when ali boxed an moved frazier was useless,when he laid on the ropes and danced around with his hands low is when he got into trouble

fight_professor
03-31-2010, 04:14 PM
Have you seen the 3 fights?

And when do the Klits "box and move" :lol1: , they have crap mobility, no speed of foot at all. They are jab, jab, straight fighters essentially. Smoke would rush these guys and spark them.

What next, "can Klits beat Larry". :lol1:

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 04:16 PM
Jimmy Ellis? Jimmy Ellis was about 10 times faster than Klitchko and with much less power, he is a bad analogy. When you are as slow as the Klitchkos analogies with classical Boxer punchers don't work.




No, Foreman was vulnerable to Boxer punchers that didn't move like Molasses, and even they had to resort to tactics like laying on the ropes and covering up or else running in and clinching for most of the night.

lol i guess big george now has the speed of roy jones.news flash,big george was lumbering and slow which is why ellis was able to take him to school.ellis is also about 8" shorter and like you said,no power

well,bein as how there was nobody near the size of a klit back then or even with comparable power theres no telling what else he was vulnerable to.he was almost stopped by ron lyle and k.o'd by ali so he wasnt some granite chinned machine.he was very beatable,and he proved that by losing

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 04:20 PM
Have you seen the 3 fights?

And when do the Klits "box and move" :lol1: , they have crap mobility, no speed of foot at all. They are jab, jab, straight fighters essentially. Smoke would rush these guys and spark them.

What next, "can Klits beat Larry". :lol1:

they dont have to be mobile.they are huge and do a great job walking most opponents down.only really big guys i would throw in a mobile category would lennox lewis,ike ibeabuchi,and riddick bowe

just like he rushed george and spanked him right lol.if all you have to do is rush these guys to spank them why are they dominating?aint like it takes a genious to come up with a rush and spank game plan

res
03-31-2010, 04:27 PM
exactly.frazier would get decapitated by 1 of those guys and there arent many heavys today i would favor him against.stylistically,frazier is perfect for anybody who can punch.i dont think frazier wanted any parts of lyle,norton,or shavers.had he fought those guys id have alot more respect for him and it would be easier to tell how he would do.

but fact is,the 1 guy he fought,who had a big punch,mowed his sloppy ass down in spectaculous fashion.i hear 9 year olds yellin out "down goes frazier" when somebody falls


Frazier is vulnerable to sluggers with power not Boxer punchers.

Frazier was 5' 11" and he crouched down to make himself much smaller. The game was, as he said himself, you have to come down to him if you want to land on him and when you do, he has you. Klitchko at well over 6 feet would be really reaching here while Frazier would just be content to rip to the body until the head came into sight. He was accustomed to dealing with much quicker Boxer punchers like Ali and Ellis.

a win on either side is not impossible though, Frazier just has the stylistic advantages

res
03-31-2010, 04:40 PM
lol i guess big george now has the speed of roy jones.news flash,big george was lumbering and slow which is why ellis was able to take him to school.ellis is also about 8" shorter and like you said,no power

well,bein as how there was nobody near the size of a klit back then or even with comparable power theres no telling what else he was vulnerable to.he was almost stopped by ron lyle and k.o'd by ali so he wasnt some granite chinned machine.he was very beatable,and he proved that by losing

Uhh, Ellis took George to school when was that?

George was lumbering compared to swift fighters like Ali , but we are talking about Klitchko, a completely different conversation.

I like how you ignored the fact that i pointed out that even Ali and Young who were light years faster than the Klitchkos had to resort to covering on the ropes or running in and clinching. What prayer do the Klitchkos have against him just trying to Box at their speed?

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 04:44 PM
Frazier is vulnerable to sluggers with power not Boxer punchers.

Frazier was 5' 11" and he crouched down to make himself much smaller. The game was, as he said himself, you have to come down to him if you want to land on him and when you do, he has you. Klitchko at well over 6 feet would be really reaching here while Frazier would just be content to rip to the body until the head came into sight. He was accustomed to dealing with much quicker Boxer punchers like Ali and Ellis.

a win on either side is not impossible though, Frazier just has the stylistic advantages

unfortunatly talk doesnt win fights.antonio tarver once said when asked about a fight with him vs vitali"you cant hit what you cant see",implying that he has blinding speed lol.

well,big george didnt have to go far down to find smokin joe.he found him easy,early,and often.and george was also well over 6'.so you somehow think a brute could solve frazier but someone with some real technique couldnt?

of course thats what he was accustomed to dealing with,because thats what was more normal.but i do know frazier only faced 1 big puncher out that era and he got mangled.so i cant see how he possibly beats a taller,bigger,more skilled puncher

res
03-31-2010, 04:52 PM
=r.burgundy;7951761]unfortunatly talk doesnt win fights.antonio tarver once said when asked about a fight with him vs vitali"you cant hit what you cant see",implying that he has blinding speed lol.

well,big george didnt have to go far down to find smokin joe.he found him easy,early,and often.and george was also well over 6'.so you somehow think a brute could solve frazier but someone with some real technique couldnt?

of course thats what he was accustomed to dealing with,because thats what was more normal.but i do know frazier only faced 1 big puncher out that era and he got mangled.so i cant see how he possibly beats a taller,bigger,more skilled puncher

I think your problem is that you think Big George is a normal puncher.

Also can you comprehend the difference between a slugger and a boxer?!
a slugger (like Foreman) can find anyone because he steps right into their faces and wings punches, a Boxer has to set punches up from a distance and time them.

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 04:52 PM
Uhh, Ellis took George to school when was that?

George was lumbering compared to swift fighters like Ali , but we are talking about Klitchko, a completely different conversation.

I like how you ignored the fact that i pointed out that even Ali and Young who were light years faster than the Klitchkos had to resort to covering on the ropes or running in and clinching. What prayer do the Klitchkos have against him just trying to Box at their speed?

young,sorry.and yes he took george to school lol.he also dropped george if im not mistaken,which im not.if have to check if my father still has that fight.and young was layin on the ropes from fatigue,not strategy like ali.and if im also not mistaken young had george hurt in round 7 or 8

what you choose to ignore that both klits are light years bigger,and stronger than both young,foreman,and ali.george wouldnt have the technique to get inside and frazier wouldnt have the technique or chin,or punch to do anything even if he did

i will say this though.foreman would likely destroy wlad pre emmanuel steward,but frazier hasnt got a snowballs chance in hell either way

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 04:57 PM
[QUOTE=r.burgundy;7951761]unfortunatly talk doesnt win fights.antonio tarver once said when asked about a fight with him vs vitali"you cant hit what you cant see",implying that he has blinding speed lol.

well,big george didnt have to go far down to find smokin joe.he found him easy,early,and often.and george was also well over 6'.so you somehow think a brute could solve frazier but someone with some real technique couldnt?

of course thats what he was accustomed to dealing with,because thats what was more normal.but i do know frazier only faced 1 big puncher out that era and he got mangled.so i cant see how he possibly beats a taller,bigger,more skilled puncher

I think your problem is that you think Big George is a normal puncher.

Also can you comprehend the difference between a slugger and a boxer?!
a slugger can find anyone because he steps right into their faces and wings punches, a Boxer has to set punches up from a distance and time them.

george an joe were both sluggers and sluggers usually get picked apart by boxers.ala ali,young over foreman,lewis over tua,mosley over rito,an mayorga,hopkins over tito,calzhage over lacy,etc etc.i cant think of many instances were the slugger beats the boxer with a punch.feel free to point some out

res
03-31-2010, 05:07 PM
young,sorry.and yes he took george to school lol.he also dropped george if im not mistaken,which im not.if have to check if my father still has that fight.and young was layin on the ropes from fatigue,not strategy like ali.and if im also not mistaken young had george hurt in round 7 or 8

what you choose to ignore that both klits are light years bigger,and stronger than both young,foreman,and ali.george wouldnt have the technique to get inside and frazier wouldnt have the technique or chin,or punch to do anything even if he did

i will say this though.foreman would likely destroy wlad pre emmanuel steward,but frazier hasnt got a snowballs chance in hell either way


I think i should cut and paste this so you can read it again.


I like how you ignored the fact that i pointed out that even Ali and Young who were light years faster than the Klitchkos had to resort to covering on the ropes or running in and clinching. What prayer do the Klitchkos have against him just trying to Box at their speed?


No Young was not the one laying on the ropes in that quote, he was the one running in and clinching Foreman non-stop during the first half of the fight. Ran in and hugged him like he was his lover every twenty seconds until Foreman began to slow down.


Stronger than Foreman? I don't know, but they sure don't have his power.

res
03-31-2010, 05:18 PM
[QUOTE=res;7951821]

george an joe were both sluggers and sluggers usually get picked apart by boxers.ala ali,young over foreman,lewis over tua,mosley over rito,an mayorga,hopkins over tito,calzhage over lacy,etc etc.i cant think of many instances were the slugger beats the boxer with a punch.feel free to point some out

I was talking about the fact that George could find Joe despite his crouching style because he was a slugger rather than a boxer puncher.

Slow Tall klitchko trying to time and reach a crouching, constantly moving Joe without getting blasted in the face while Joe works his body all night is another matter.

Why would you use a slugger like George to explain to me how a Boxer Puncher like Klitchko would respond to Joe's style?

a Fighter 6'7" stooping down to land on a guy 5' 11" crouched way down and poised to spring up in a second with a vicious left hook, and this while he viciously works the body.

Not impossible for Klitchko but hard.

Ziggy Stardust
03-31-2010, 05:45 PM
they are huge
nobody near the size of a klit back then

This is pretty much his entire argument. r.burgundy is a notorious size whore who can't get past weight when comparing fighters.


nobody near the size of a klit back then or even with comparable power

Considering that Foreman and Shavers are considered the two hardest punching Heavyweights ever makes the above a completely moronic statement.

Poet

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 05:53 PM
I think i should cut and paste this so you can read it again.





No Young was not the one laying on the ropes in that quote, he was the one running in and clinching Foreman non-stop during the first half of the fight. Ran in and hugged him like he was his lover every twenty seconds until Foreman began to slow down.


Stronger than Foreman? I don't know, but they sure don't have his power.

still doesnt change the fact this his chris byrd like power was able shake george up,and drop him.ive seen nothing outta young george to suggest that he could deal with somebody,bigger,stronger,and who could actually box.i would actually give old george a better chance and either way,this getting to far away from frazier

them_apples
03-31-2010, 05:58 PM
This is pretty much his entire argument. r.burgundy is a notorious size whore who can't get past weight when comparing fighters.




Considering that Foreman and Shavers are considered the two hardest punching Heavyweights ever makes the above a completely moronic statement.

Poet

it took Wlad 12 rounds to get rid of a cruiserweight with 0 heart, how is a guy like Frazier too small?

208 lb Evander Holyfield was banging with 6'5 Riddick Bowe. (he lost 2 times and beats bowe once)

On top of that, the Klitschkos really are just lucky to be facing average oponents. they don't posses great hand speed or incredible power, they are simply just strong fundamental boxers with no threats in the division.

I mean look at Kevin Johnson(sp) or Chris Aereolla, or even Eddie chambers, these are guys that Frazier would have knocked out cold in a few rounds.

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 06:03 PM
This is pretty much his entire argument. r.burgundy is a notorious size whore who can't get past weight when comparing fighters.




Considering that Foreman and Shavers are considered the two hardest punching Heavyweights ever makes the above a completely moronic statement.

Poet

their are weight classes for a reason mcfly
do you not understand what comparable means proffesor?its mean size as well as power.shavers mighta had the power but he was 6' tall 200lbs so he damn sure aint have the size.learn to read
since when did george and shavers pass mike tyson?when did frazier fight shavers?what happened when frazier fought george?

and to call shavers chin china,would be a disrespect to china.he would be damn near a cruiserweight today.the bigger,taller fighters shavers fough handled him easily so i could care less what history says of his so-called power.boxing isnt always about the hardest punch,as much as its about the right punch.and when you have skills like the klits do,you give yourself more oppurtunity to land the right punch

them_apples
03-31-2010, 06:03 PM
The only issue we have here is the klits strength, they are obviously strong dudes. If Frazier can nullify that it's an easy night. They would never hit him with anything meaningful, and he'd be clipping them all night long.

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 06:06 PM
it took Wlad 12 rounds to get rid of a cruiserweight with 0 heart, how is a guy like Frazier too small?

208 lb Evander Holyfield was banging with 6'5 Riddick Bowe. (he lost 2 times and beats bowe once)

On top of that, the Klitschkos really are just lucky to be facing average oponents. they don't posses great hand speed or incredible power, they are simply just strong fundamental boxers with no threats in the division.

I mean look at Kevin Johnson(sp) or Chris Aereolla, or even Eddie chambers, these are guys that Frazier would have knocked out cold in a few rounds.

or guys that would knocked him out cold in a few rounds.please stop tryin to turn smoking joe into something he was not.he was a heavyweight tito trinidad.a 1 trick pony,left hook bandit.nobody would care about smokin joe if it wasnt for ali.he wasnt slick,he wasnt big,he wasnt strong,he had no jab,and he went to that rocky school of defense.get outta here tryin to act like this guy reinvented boxing

Ziggy Stardust
03-31-2010, 06:13 PM
their are weight classes for a reason mcfly

And they're both in the same weight class Einstein.


since when did george and shavers pass mike tyson?

Tyson was never ahead them. The consensus among boxing experts (you're not one of THOSE obviously) has always been that Tyson ranked lower than Foreman and Shavers in terms of punching power.


and to call shavers chin china,would be a disrespect to china.he would be damn near a cruiserweight today.the bigger,taller fighters shavers fough handled him easily so i could care less what history says of his so-called power.boxing isnt always about the hardest punch,as much as its about the right punch.and when you have skills like the klits do,you give yourself more oppurtunity to land the right punch

Shavers' chin isn't the issue so stop trying to deflect the argument. BTW, name me all these "bigger, taller fighters" who handled a PRIME Shavers with ease? The only fighter I can recall handling Shavers easily was Quarry who had no significant size advantage. If you're THIS ignorant about Boxing History than prehaps you shoulf confine your posts to NSB with the other window-licking fan-bois :killyou:

Poet

Snopkins
03-31-2010, 06:15 PM
exactly.frazier would get decapitated by 1 of those guys and there arent many heavys today i would favor him against.stylistically,frazier is perfect for anybody who can punch.i dont think frazier wanted any parts of lyle,norton,or shavers.had he fought those guys id have alot more respect for him and it would be easier to tell how he would do.

but fact is,the 1 guy he fought,who had a big punch,mowed his sloppy ass down in spectaculous fashion.i hear 9 year olds yellin out "down goes frazier" when somebody falls

there is absolutely nothing to suggest that frazier could compete with 1 of these guys.he's famous for having 3 great fights with the feather fisted ali.that is all.end of his story



Pretty much.It's difficult to really give frazier the edge in matchups like this as the only time he stepped in the ring with a puncher was when he was dusted quite easily.frazier never proved that he could take a shot and ducking virtually every other puncher of his generation doesn't do much to improve his chances against a great puncher with greater technique than the punchers frazier did duck.



The feather fisted Ali was also able to hurt frazier a number of times throughout all three fights also.

Ziggy Stardust
03-31-2010, 06:29 PM
Pretty much.It's difficult to really give frazier the edge in matchups like this as the only time he stepped in the ring with a puncher was when he was dusted quite easily.frazier never proved that he could take a shot and ducking virtually every other puncher of his generation doesn't do much to improve his chances against a great puncher with greater technique than the punchers frazier did duck.

The feather fisted Ali was also able to hurt frazier a number of times throughout all three fights also.

Go steal oxygen elsewhere Quasimoto.

Poet

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 06:57 PM
.just




Tyson was never ahead them. The consensus among boxing experts (you're not one of THOSE obviously) has always been that Tyson ranked lower than Foreman and Shavers in terms of punching power.




Shavers' chin isn't the issue so stop trying to deflect the argument. BTW, name me all these "bigger, taller fighters" who handled a PRIME Shavers with ease? The only fighter I can recall handling Shavers easily was Quarry who had no significant size advantage. If you're THIS ignorant about Boxing History than prehaps you shoulf confine your posts to NSB with the other window-licking fan-bois :killyou:

Poet

no **** sherlock.just because they are all heavys means size doesnt play a factor lol?get real

the issue being of comparable size and power.you brought shavers up not me.i define tall as 6'3 and up.ron lyle,holmes,and cobb.yiu dont recall shavers vs holmes being easy lol.ok buddy

but either way,all that has nothing to do with get smoked joe

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 07:00 PM
Pretty much.It's difficult to really give frazier the edge in matchups like this as the only time he stepped in the ring with a puncher was when he was dusted quite easily.frazier never proved that he could take a shot and ducking virtually every other puncher of his generation doesn't do much to improve his chances against a great puncher with greater technique than the punchers frazier did duck.



The feather fisted Ali was also able to hurt frazier a number of times throughout all three fights also.

word lol.now these guys are in here twisting history trying to turn joe into pernel whitaker acting as if he was impossible to hit lol,or making it seem like he had some deep arsenal of punches.he was a crude,left hooker.get over it people..these guys in here kill me.smokin joe woulda bounced his happy ass right into a strait right and went to sleep

res
03-31-2010, 08:32 PM
still doesnt change the fact this his chris byrd like power was able shake george up,and drop him.ive seen nothing outta young george to suggest that he could deal with somebody,bigger,stronger,and who could actually box.i would actually give old george a better chance and either way,this getting to far away from frazier


George could be dropped because he lacked stamina and the fight had gone into the final stretch.

You don't seriously think that a fighter than can brawl with Ron Lyle can't take Jimmy Young's power do you? That one must just be an argument to defend your fighter. Ofcourse Foreman's stamina won't be a factor with Klit because this isn't going past the 5th round as another poster stated.

r.burgundy
03-31-2010, 09:29 PM
George could be dropped because he lacked stamina and the fight had gone into the final stretch.

You don't seriously think that a fighter than can brawl with Ron Lyle can't take Jimmy Young's power do you? That one must just be an argument to defend your fighter. Ofcourse Foreman's stamina won't be a factor with Klit because this isn't going past the 5th round as another poster stated.

if im not mistaken foreman got dropped by lyle in the 3rd or 4th rnd.nice try though.and lyle was only 210lbs i think.your right though.no way he lasts 5 with a klit

JAB5239
03-31-2010, 10:11 PM
if im not mistaken foreman got dropped by lyle in the 3rd or 4th rnd.nice try though.and lyle was only 210lbs i think.your right though.no way he lasts 5 with a klit

And Wlad got ko'd in the 2nd and 5th by Sanders and Brewster, neither who were remotely close to as good as Frazier and only out weighed Joe by about 15lbs.

them_apples
03-31-2010, 11:53 PM
And Wlad got ko'd in the 2nd and 5th by Sanders and Brewster, neither who were remotely close to as good as Frazier and only out weighed Joe by about 15lbs.

Lyle was 210 lbs back in the day when Heavyweights trained. Fat Ali was 235+ and even then he wasn't half as fat as some of the Hw's today. The K bros are big but not everyone else is..even if they weigh in heavy.

them_apples
03-31-2010, 11:56 PM
how can people watch klitschko and possibly think he's better than Frazier. Frazier is just straight better. He's even faster.

Ziggy Stardust
04-01-2010, 12:32 AM
how can people watch klitschko and possibly think he's better than Frazier.

Congenital retardation crossed my mind.

Poet

T3dBundy
04-01-2010, 12:53 AM
im not sure about frazier, but liston would beat wladimir.
wlad doesnt have a reach advantage over liston, even when he is 5" taller than him.
after 5 rounds with liston wladimirs legs would get tired, now liston would start to throw few jabs to penetrate wlads defense, then its just a matter of time until liston finishes him.

while vitaly would cause way more problems to liston, vitaly has better stamina than wlad and his timing is close to perfekt.
i would rather see this fight, even when wlad has a better resume than his big brother, the outcome of liston vs vitaly is harder to predict.

mickey malone
04-01-2010, 01:12 AM
These two posts sum it up perfectly..

Ezzard Fan-The thing I like about the Klitschkos is that I can cook a pizza between them starting their punches and them landing...

I think that Frazier would easily get inside, the main problem being that he tended to take too many shots to get inside and this is where he'd be vulnerable to these monsters. I'd still pick him to beat them though, just not simultaneously LOL.

Inside fighting is a long lost art, it pretty much died out in the early 60s. The referees these days break fighters apart too soon, that's a big part of the problem. Frazier wasn't as skilled as the fighters that went before him but had far superior inside skills to today's fighters. The Klitschkos have never encountered a fighter with those inside skills.

The fight I really would like to see would be Archie Moore vs a Klitschko. Archie's defense would be perfect for them, and the Old Mongoose was skilled at working his way inside to find the button.

I had an interesting couple of sparring sessions these past two weeks, with an opponent 6 years my junior (I'm 39) that outweighed me by 25lbs and had much longer reach (everyone has a longer reach than me I'm 6' & 175lbs with a 68" reach). The first time I tried to play stick and run and he handed me my ass big time, opening up on me with these huge swinging bombs, stopping me cold and cutting me down. The second time I kept going inside him using the cross armed guard and hitting him with inside punches, uppercuts, short straights, inside cross, short hooks, and even a few overhand shots, alternating my attack between head and body. I wasn't swarming on him just pecking away carefully placing my shots so that they counted. He could barely hit me, was too off balance to clinch, and actually surrendered after 3 rounds looking thoroughly disillusioned. We were wearing head guards and I was holding back a little, but found his button several times. Like many big tall fighters he had a tendency to move his head up from punches exposing his chin. The Klitschkos share this trait.

My point is that old fashioned approach works really well against larger fighters with a reach advantage, if you make it past their jab (the easy part) they try and chop you down with big swings (although they probably consider those to be short hooks LOL) which is essentially what Foreman did to Frazier, but Ancient Archie's cross armed defence is water tight against that type of assault.Originally Posted by them_apples
it took Wlad 12 rounds to get rid of a cruiserweight with 0 heart, how is a guy like Frazier too small?

them_apples-208 lb Evander Holyfield was banging with 6'5 Riddick Bowe. (he lost 2 times and beats bowe once)

On top of that, the Klitschkos really are just lucky to be facing average oponents. they don't posses great hand speed or incredible power, they are simply just strong fundamental boxers with no threats in the division.

I mean look at Kevin Johnson(sp) or Chris Aereolla, or even Eddie chambers, these are guys that Frazier would have knocked out cold in a few rounds.
__________________

r.burgundy
04-01-2010, 11:25 AM
And Wlad got ko'd in the 2nd and 5th by Sanders and Brewster, neither who were remotely close to as good as Frazier and only out weighed Joe by about 15lbs.

which is why i gave foreman a chance against pre steward wlad.you failed to mention that lamon brewester took a hell of a beating in that fight.a beating which frazier couldnt have took.and corrie sanders is also close to 6'5 while brewster is 6'2.both well taller than frazier,and better chinned.and brewster caught a terrible beatdown in the rematch

r.burgundy
04-01-2010, 11:33 AM
how can people watch klitschko and possibly think he's better than Frazier. Frazier is just straight better. He's even faster.

straight better lol.based on what?his left hook isnt nowhere near as dominant a punch as a jab from either klit.he had poor defense and his technique was damn near crude as evidenced by the 1 fight he took against a guy who can punch.he had no answer for big george.of course he would be able to move faster,he is 9" shorter and about 50lbs lighter.stop trying to rewrite history.

r.burgundy
04-01-2010, 11:35 AM
These two posts sum it up perfectly..

Ezzard Fan-The thing I like about the Klitschkos is that I can cook a pizza between them starting their punches and them landing...

I think that Frazier would easily get inside, the main problem being that he tended to take too many shots to get inside and this is where he'd be vulnerable to these monsters. I'd still pick him to beat them though, just not simultaneously LOL.

Inside fighting is a long lost art, it pretty much died out in the early 60s. The referees these days break fighters apart too soon, that's a big part of the problem. Frazier wasn't as skilled as the fighters that went before him but had far superior inside skills to today's fighters. The Klitschkos have never encountered a fighter with those inside skills.

The fight I really would like to see would be Archie Moore vs a Klitschko. Archie's defense would be perfect for them, and the Old Mongoose was skilled at working his way inside to find the button.

I had an interesting couple of sparring sessions these past two weeks, with an opponent 6 years my junior (I'm 39) that outweighed me by 25lbs and had much longer reach (everyone has a longer reach than me I'm 6' & 175lbs with a 68" reach). The first time I tried to play stick and run and he handed me my ass big time, opening up on me with these huge swinging bombs, stopping me cold and cutting me down. The second time I kept going inside him using the cross armed guard and hitting him with inside punches, uppercuts, short straights, inside cross, short hooks, and even a few overhand shots, alternating my attack between head and body. I wasn't swarming on him just pecking away carefully placing my shots so that they counted. He could barely hit me, was too off balance to clinch, and actually surrendered after 3 rounds looking thoroughly disillusioned. We were wearing head guards and I was holding back a little, but found his button several times. Like many big tall fighters he had a tendency to move his head up from punches exposing his chin. The Klitschkos share this trait.

My point is that old fashioned approach works really well against larger fighters with a reach advantage, if you make it past their jab (the easy part) they try and chop you down with big swings (although they probably consider those to be short hooks LOL) which is essentially what Foreman did to Frazier, but Ancient Archie's cross armed defence is water tight against that type of assault.Originally Posted by them_apples
it took Wlad 12 rounds to get rid of a cruiserweight with 0 heart, how is a guy like Frazier too small?

them_apples-208 lb Evander Holyfield was banging with 6'5 Riddick Bowe. (he lost 2 times and beats bowe once)

On top of that, the Klitschkos really are just lucky to be facing average oponents. they don't posses great hand speed or incredible power, they are simply just strong fundamental boxers with no threats in the division.

I mean look at Kevin Johnson(sp) or Chris Aereolla, or even Eddie chambers, these are guys that Frazier would have knocked out cold in a few rounds.
__________________

208 lb holyfield would beat the hell outta frazier as would riddick bowe.and riddick might be the`reason holy is retarded now

Ziggy Stardust
04-01-2010, 11:37 AM
and riddick might be the`reason holy is retarded now

Speaking of retarded, you didn't learn much in those special-ed classes did you? Too busy licking windows and drooling on youself huh? :crackhead

Poet

r.burgundy
04-01-2010, 11:41 AM
Speaking of retarded, you didn't learn much in those special-ed classes did you? Too busy licking windows and drooling on youself huh? :crackhead

Poet

dude,your jokes are really lame and corny.and please save yourself the time of replying with "i wasnt joking".and if your really 41 years old,please log off and grow up alil bit.me an some other posters are having a peaceful debate.lets keep it that way.thanks

Ziggy Stardust
04-01-2010, 11:58 AM
dude,your jokes are really lame and corny.and please save yourself the time of replying with "i wasnt joking".and if your really 41 years old,please log off and grow up alil bit.me an some other posters are having a peaceful debate.lets keep it that way.thanks

While I can't to your age you're living proof that stupidity has no age bounderies.

There is no debate going on: They are making valid points while you're making an ass out of yourself. Cases in point: You're obsessed with weight and height, and in addition to assuming that bigger is always better you also assume newer is always better. This shows a clear bias towards the most recent fighters yet you accuse others of being biased towards old-timers. Pot, kettle, black anyone? The fact that you continue to make your assertions in the face of clear evidence to the contrary leads me to believe that you hold your views as a tenent of faith; which makes you a KoolAid drinker to the cult of "Progress" and "Modernity". As with every true believer in such ideology, debating you is a pointless exercise: No matter how often you're proven wrong you will cling to your orthadoxy with all the ferver of a Mecca pilgrim. Since debating you is, in fact, a pointless exercise, the only thing you're good for is to serve as example of how to make a fool of one's self :loser: Have a nice day! :)

Poet

JAB5239
04-01-2010, 12:21 PM
which is why i gave foreman a chance against pre steward wlad.you failed to mention that lamon brewester took a hell of a beating in that fight.a beating which frazier couldnt have took.

Couldn't or wouldn't have took?

and corrie sanders is also close to 6'5 while brewster is 6'2.both well taller than frazier,and better chinned.and brewster caught a terrible beatdown in the rematch

How was sanders better chinned than Frazier? And you forgot to mention Brewster had just come back from eye surgery in the second fight and was never really a world beater to begin with.

Ziggy Stardust
04-01-2010, 12:25 PM
How was sanders better chinned than Frazier? And you forgot to mention Brewster had just come back from eye surgery in the second fight and was never really a world beater to begin with.

Not to mention Brewster came into the rematch with Wlad grossly out of shape and only looking for a quick paycheck.

Poet

r.burgundy
04-01-2010, 12:54 PM
While I can't to your age you're living proof that stupidity has no age bounderies.

There is no debate going on: They are making valid points while you're making an ass out of yourself. Cases in point: You're obsessed with weight and height, and in addition to assuming that bigger is always better you also assume newer is always better. This shows a clear bias towards the most recent fighters yet you accuse others of being biased towards old-timers. Pot, kettle, black anyone? The fact that you continue to make your assertions in the face of clear evidence to the contrary leads me to believe that you hold your views as a tenent of faith; which makes you a KoolAid drinker to the cult of "Progress" and "Modernity". As with every true believer in such ideology, debating you is a pointless exercise: No matter how often you're proven wrong you will cling to your orthadoxy with all the ferver of a Mecca pilgrim. Since debating you is, in fact, a pointless exercise, the only thing you're good for is to serve as example of how to make a fool of one's self :loser: Have a nice day! :)

Poet

1st off were dealing with a fantasy matchup of klitschos vs frazier.so do you understand the meaning of the word opinion lol?

only facts we have are that the 1 big puncher with height joe faced,he got mangled.that is a fact.george foreman has a 83% ko ratio while vlad is at 85 an vital is at 90 so even if you still want to kling to the notion that george hit harder,you can at least admit they are in the same ballpark

im not obessed with weight and height at all.again were talking about how frazier would do agianst 2 6'7 guys with extreme power.fact is,the 6'4 gu with extreme power and less skills decapitated him.it wasnt a close fight,and george was the only guy he fought with a ko ratio of over 80.thats a fact

so playing statistics,theres a better chance of frazier getting stopped than 1)stopping a guy who has never been stopped in vitali,or 2)stopping a guy who hasnt come close to being stopped after steward.and as a side bar,sanders is 6'5 and had a ratio in the 90's when he fought wlad,as did brewster

so please show me what clear evidence as you put it is there for talking about a fantasy matchup lol.i'll wait

please tell me where somebody has proven me wrong on anything.i'll wait lol

your 41 years old an name calling on a boxing forum lol.i guess your a perfect model of intelligence lol.hang it up pops

r.burgundy
04-01-2010, 12:55 PM
How was sanders better chinned than Frazier? And you forgot to mention Brewster had just come back from eye surgery in the second fight and was never really a world beater to begin with.

how can we honestly measure fraziers chin when the only puncher he fought demolished him?

r.burgundy
04-01-2010, 01:00 PM
Not to mention Brewster came into the rematch with Wlad grossly out of shape and only looking for a quick paycheck.

Poet

brewster was grossly outta shape now lmao.he weighed in a grand total of 2lbs heavier.226 in fight 1 and 228 and fight 2,and there was nothing wrong with his physique.watch the fights before making your ignorant statements.brewseter was outta shape lol.i done heard it all

NChristo
04-01-2010, 01:14 PM
208 lb holyfield would beat the hell outta frazier as would riddick bowe.and riddick might be the`reason holy is retarded now


Did you really just compare the Klitschkos to Bowe and Holyfield ? they are in a completely different league to the Klits and besides this is about the Klits vs Frazier, not them.

Ziggy Stardust
04-01-2010, 01:16 PM
1st off were dealing with a fantasy matchup of klitschos vs frazier.so do you understand the meaning of the word opinion lol?

Not all opinions are of equal validity. The opinion of an intelligent knowledgable poster like Jab trumps the opinion of a village idiot who can't be arsed to do his homework such as yourself.


only facts we have are that the 1 big puncher with height joe faced,he got mangled.that is a fact.george foreman has a 83% ko ratio while vlad is at 85 an vital is at 90 so even if you still want to kling to the notion that george hit harder,you can at least admit they are in the same ballpark

What you're leaving out is the fact that the Klitschkos' KO% are padded with opponents who gave up and quit on their stools: Something that fighters in Foreman's time had to much pride to make a habit of. These days it's an exceptable option when a fighter is way behind on points.


im not obessed with weight and height at all.again were talking about how frazier would do agianst 2 6'7 guys with extreme power.fact is,the 6'4 gu with extreme power and less skills decapitated him.it wasnt a close fight,and george was the only guy he fought with a ko ratio of over 80.thats a fact

so playing statistics,theres a better chance of frazier getting stopped than 1)stopping a guy who has never been stopped in vitali,or 2)stopping a guy who hasnt come close to being stopped after steward.and as a side bar,sanders is 6'5 and had a ratio in the 90's when he fought wlad,as did brewster

So you deny you're height and weight obsessed in the first line then go right back to obsessing on height and weight in the remainder of your paragraph :rofl:

Poet

r.burgundy
04-01-2010, 01:22 PM
Not all opinions are of equal validity. The opinion of an intelligent knowledgable poster like Jab trumps the opinion of a village idiot who can't be arsed to do his homework such as yourself.




What you're leaving out is the fact that the Klitschkos' KO% are padded with opponents who gave up and quit on their stools: Something that fighters in Foreman's time had to much pride to make a habit of. These days it's an exceptable option when a fighter is way behind on points.




So you deny you're height and weight obsessed in the first line then go right back to obsessing on height and weight in the remainder of your paragraph :rofl:

Poet

ok grandpa

Shazam!
04-02-2010, 12:29 PM
[B]Quote:
Note the close comma's and fullstops.. Must be a common trait amongst the Frazier hate club foundation..

Haha, great spot. It's gotta be the same guy. What an idiot! :rofl::rofl:

One more round
04-02-2010, 05:48 PM
I mean, the too small thing is stupid in regards to Frazier.

Prime Frazier was like what, 205-10 or something, with no fat and great stamina.

Chambers, who was considered a legit challeneger to wlad, and isn't half the fighter Joe was, weighed 209 with a sizeable gut on him.

theghost#1
04-02-2010, 05:53 PM
Fraziers style would be a nightmare for the K bros. They are very upright and don't tuck their chins, and they don't seem to like fighting inside. Everyone they face fights them at their reach. Frazier would be inside and never take a step back. I'm not so certain they would even have any punching power in close.

Of all the greats I believe Frazier would be the easiest fighter for K2. He's simply to small, short arms. Would literally have to jump to hit either klit.

JAB5239
04-02-2010, 06:46 PM
Of all the greats I believe Frazier would be the easiest fighter for K2. He's simply to small, short arms. Would literally have to jump to hit either klit.

Than again he wasn't much shorter than Lamon Brewster and was the WAY better fighter and never got tired.

One more round
04-02-2010, 06:52 PM
Of all the greats I believe Frazier would be the easiest fighter for K2. He's simply to small, short arms. Would literally have to jump to hit either klit.

Frazier could really have given both guys trouble with his intensity, conditioning, the way he crouched and bobbed his head, making him a tough target for a big man like the K's, plus he was a strong puncher, and a good body puncher too.


The K's are good fighters, but the guys they are dominating are not on Joe's level, Joe was a strong, well conditioned guy who did not give up and had good skills. Prime Frazier stops Wlad.

Frazier vs Vitali could be an awkward fight with frazier's low crouching advance and VK's great height and awkward style. Both guys could take a few rounds to figure each other out, but I think Joe is eventually able to close the distance on Vitali and mess up his range, getting in on him and scoring in close, and winning a decision.

r.burgundy
04-02-2010, 07:10 PM
Frazier could really have given both guys trouble with his intensity, conditioning, the way he crouched and bobbed his head, making him a tough target for a big man like the K's, plus he was a strong puncher, and a good body puncher too.


The K's are good fighters, but the guys they are dominating are not on Joe's level, Joe was a strong, well conditioned guy who did not give up and had good skills. Prime Frazier stops Wlad.

Frazier vs Vitali could be an awkward fight with frazier's low crouching advance and VK's great height and awkward style. Both guys could take a few rounds to figure each other out, but I think Joe is eventually able to close the distance on Vitali and mess up his range, getting in on him and scoring in close, and winning a decision.

somebody please tell me,who on earth smokin joe has beat that people must make him out to be a legend.he has 1 decision over ali.wow

r.burgundy
04-02-2010, 07:11 PM
Of all the greats I believe Frazier would be the easiest fighter for K2. He's simply to small, short arms. Would literally have to jump to hit either klit.

hey,get outta here with all that common sense

Jim Jeffries
04-02-2010, 07:20 PM
Than again he wasn't much shorter than Lamon Brewster and was the WAY better fighter and never got tired.

Speaking of Brewster, I'm still confused how someone that's hit after the bell, goes down after the bell, can be counted out, especially when he beats the count (and has 50 seconds left to recover before continuing.)

JAB5239
04-02-2010, 07:23 PM
Speaking of Brewster, I'm still confused how someone that's hit after the bell, goes down after the bell, can be counted out, especially when he beats the count (and has 50 seconds left to recover before continuing.)

You lost me Hank. Could you specify what you're talking about? Thanks bro!

Ziggy Stardust
04-02-2010, 07:40 PM
somebody please tell me,who on earth smokin joe has beat that people must make him out to be a legend.he has 1 decision over ali.wow

Please tell me who either Klitschko has beat to make THEM legends? :dunno:

Poet

Jim Jeffries
04-02-2010, 07:41 PM
You lost me Hank. Could you specify what you're talking about? Thanks bro!

The Brewster/Wlad fight. Sorry, I thought it was implied.

r.burgundy
04-02-2010, 08:11 PM
Please tell me who either Klitschko has beat to make THEM legends? :dunno:

Poet

same guys larry holmes and smokin joe beat

r.burgundy
04-02-2010, 08:14 PM
Than again he wasn't much shorter than Lamon Brewster and was the WAY better fighter and never got tired.

he's 3" taller with 4 " reach and 20lbs heavier with a granite chin.those are pretty big advantages

JAB5239
04-02-2010, 08:18 PM
The Brewster/Wlad fight. Sorry, I thought it was implied.

My bad, I had a brain fart.

First, you can't be saved by the bell in any round but the last. Next, I thought Brewster through that last punch just a split second before the bell with it land just a split second after. Not an intentional foul a a fighter needs to protect himself at all times. Last, Wlad was in no condition to go on. Stopping it then was not only the right call, but a merciful one at that.

Ziggy Stardust
04-02-2010, 08:23 PM
same guys larry holmes and smokin joe beat

Funny, but I was unaware either Klit beat: Ali, Bonevena, Ellis, and Machen (Frazier); or Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Cooney, and Witherspoon (Holmes).

Poet

JAB5239
04-02-2010, 08:23 PM
he's 3" taller with 4 " reach and 20lbs heavier with a granite chin.those are pretty big advantages

Hec was 2, maybe 2 and a half inches taller and reach doesn't mean as much to someone with Fraziers style as it does for more of a stand up fighter. Joe was faster than Brewster of both hand and foot, had better stamina and better quality wins. THOSE are pretty big advantages, no?

Jim Jeffries
04-02-2010, 08:35 PM
My bad, I had a brain fart.

First, you can't be saved by the bell in any round but the last. Next, I thought Brewster through that last punch just a split second before the bell with it land just a split second after. Not an intentional foul a a fighter needs to protect himself at all times. Last, Wlad was in no condition to go on. Stopping it then was not only the right call, but a merciful one at that.

Thanks. It just seemed kind of odd, especially since Brewster was hurt worse earlier in the fight. Wlad had punched himself out Foreman style by the time the fight was stopped though, probably wouldn't have done much after that. I just figured he should've been given a minute to see if he could recuperate, especially after beating the count, and being a title fight.

Wlad was dropped in the fight right after that, if I remember right, and managed to recover and stop the guy.

JAB5239
04-02-2010, 08:50 PM
Thanks. It just seemed kind of odd, especially since Brewster was hurt worse earlier in the fight. Wlad had punched himself out Foreman style by the time the fight was stopped though, probably wouldn't have done much after that. I just figured he should've been given a minute to see if he could recuperate, especially after beating the count, and being a title fight.

Wlad was dropped in the fight right after that, if I remember right, and managed to recover and stop the guy.

Against DaVaryl Williams, yes. But that KD was more of an off balance KD and Wlad wasn't in the kind of shape he was in against Brewster.

r.burgundy
04-02-2010, 08:55 PM
Hec was 2, maybe 2 and a half inches taller and reach doesn't mean as much to someone with Fraziers style as it does for more of a stand up fighter. Joe was faster than Brewster of both hand and foot, had better stamina and better quality wins. THOSE are pretty big advantages, no?

frazier is 5'11 and brewster is 6'2.reach is very important for joe against a bigger guy because he would damn near have to lunge.yes he has faster fands and feet,but id trade those for brewsters very proven chin.and brewster is no slouch in stamina so i cant say joe has him beat there.

if you take ali off joes resume,its pretty ****ty.please make a case for joe being atg without the ali fights,in which he lost 2 of them.i dont think a fighter in history has ever been rewarded more for losing

JAB5239
04-02-2010, 09:04 PM
frazier is 5'11 and brewster is 6'2.reach is very important for joe against a bigger guy because he would damn near have to lunge.yes he has faster fands and feet,but id trade those for brewsters very proven chin.and brewster is no slouch in stamina so i cant say joe has him beat there.

Frazier is listed as 5'11" and 1/2 inches tall. That is a 2 and a half inch advantage in Brewsters favor, but you completely ignored what I wrote about styles and height. As far as stamina goes.....when have you seen Brewster throw non stop at the pace Frazier set, for 12 rounds let alone 15?

if you take ali off joes resume,its pretty ****ty.please make a case for joe being atg without the ali fights,in which he lost 2 of them.i dont think a fighter in history has ever been rewarded more for losing

Ellis, Quarry, Ramos, Chuvalo, Machen, Bonovena, Jones and Mathis, some of them more than once, makes for a pretty ****ty resume? :rofl:

r.burgundy
04-03-2010, 12:52 AM
Ellis, Quarry, Ramos, Chuvalo, Machen, Bonovena, Jones and Mathis, some of them more than once, makes for a pretty ****ty resume? :rofl:

for a supposed all time great and considering whom it coulda had.yes.that is a verry ****ty resume.the fact that you list quarry,jones and mathis should confirm that for you

JAB5239
04-03-2010, 01:02 AM
for a supposed all time great and considering whom it coulda had.yes.that is a verry ****ty resume.the fact that you list quarry,jones and mathis should confirm that for you

Ok I'll bite. Who could it have had?

The Beatles
04-03-2010, 01:51 AM
for a supposed all time great and considering whom it coulda had.yes.that is a verry ****ty resume.the fact that you list quarry,jones and mathis should confirm that for you
shut the **** up idiot....Quarry and Mathis are greater than any chump Wlad has fought

The Beatles
04-03-2010, 01:53 AM
frazier is 5'11 and brewster is 6'2.reach is very important for joe against a bigger guy because he would damn near have to lunge.yes he has faster fands and feet,but id trade those for brewsters very proven chin.and brewster is no slouch in stamina so i cant say joe has him beat there.

if you take ali off joes resume,its pretty ****ty.please make a case for joe being atg without the ali fights,in which he lost 2 of them.i dont think a fighter in history has ever been rewarded more for losing
sorry but glass chinned Wlad has no great on his resume....not ONE...

Wlad has yet to fight someone who people consider a great....if frazier's resume is ****ty than LMAO at Wlad's resume

r.burgundy
04-03-2010, 10:53 AM
Ok I'll bite. Who could it have had?

prime norton,shavers,lyle,and young all shouldve been on his resume.do you agree?

r.burgundy
04-03-2010, 11:02 AM
sorry but glass chinned Wlad has no great on his resume....not ONE...

Wlad has yet to fight someone who people consider a great....if frazier's resume is ****ty than LMAO at Wlad's resume

we dont crticize larry holmes for that.roys light heavy run doesnt have 1 either,same with hopkins run at middle,hagler doesnt have a true mw win over a atg as well.i said true as hearns and duran were not true mw's

smokin joe went 1-5 against the 2 atg' on his resume and we are supposed to reward that

you have the nerve to say buster mathis was better than anybody wlad fought lol.he was 1 skittle away from a heart attack,and thats back when he was actually in shape.please show me 1 good win on mathis resume.i'll wait

Roger Yomama
04-03-2010, 11:06 AM
fraziers style would be absolutely perfect for a klitscho,just like it was perfect for foreman,and just like it would be perfect for any big guy with power.frazier went to the rocky balboa school of defense.foreman was a crude slugger and he damn near decapitated frazier,i can only imagine what some1 wit some technique would do

Who was that guy who went life and death with Frazier 3 times? His technique was pretty decent if I remember rightly and Frazier gave him nightmares. :boxing:

Ziggy Stardust
04-03-2010, 11:09 AM
prime norton,shavers,lyle,and young all shouldve been on his resume.do you agree?

Sorry, but Shavers, Lyle, and Young all rose to prominence at the time when Frazier was on his way out. As for Norton, he was Frazier's stable mate AND sparring partner as well as a close friend: That fight was never going to happen.

BTW, it's pretty revealing about your boxing knowledge that you regard guys like Quarry, Bonevena, and Jones as bums.

Oh, and 1 win over Ali > than all of Wlad and Vitali's wins COMBINED.

Poet

Roger Yomama
04-03-2010, 11:15 AM
Sorry, but Shavers, Lyle, and Young all rose to prominence at the time when Frazier was on his way out. As for Norton, he was Frazier's stable mate AND sparring partner as well as a close friend: That fight was never going to happen.

BTW, it's pretty revealing about your boxing knowledge that you regard guys like Quarry, Bonevena, and Jones as bums.

Oh, and 1 win over Ali > than all of Wlad and Vitali's wins COMBINED.

Poet

Amen to that. :boxing:

Norton
04-03-2010, 11:37 AM
Fraziers style would be a nightmare for the K bros. They are very upright and don't tuck their chins, and they don't seem to like fighting inside. Everyone they face fights them at their reach. Frazier would be inside and never take a step back. I'm not so certain they would even have any punching power in close.

That's why boxers uses clinch, especially smart and skilled tall boxers, like Lewis and Klitschkos. But this is really irrelevant, just let statistics speak for itself: Joe Frazier height 5***8242; 11***8243;/182 cm reach 73***8243;/185 cm Vitali Klitschko height 6***8242; 7/202 cm reach 80***8243;/203 cm Wladimir Klitschko height 6***8242;6***8243;/199 cm reach 81***8243;/206 cm

They are all good boxers, and a big good boxer always beats a small good boxer.

Ziggy Stardust
04-03-2010, 11:41 AM
That's why boxers uses clinch, especially smart and skilled tall boxers, like Lewis and Klitschkos. But this is really irrelevant, just let statistics speak for itself: Joe Frazier height 5***8242; 11***8243;/182 cm reach 73***8243;/185 cm Vitali Klitschko height 6***8242; 7/202 cm reach 80***8243;/203 cm Wladimir Klitschko height 6***8242;6***8243;/199 cm reach 81***8243;/206 cm

They are all good boxers, and a big good boxer always beats a small good boxer.

Always? I seem to recall Frazier (good small boxer) beating Ali (good big boxer - height 6'3" reach 80"). When you make a universal statement like that it only takes one example to the contrary to invalidate it according to the rules of logic.

Poet

Norton
04-03-2010, 11:54 AM
Always? I seem to recall Frazier (good small boxer) beating Ali (good big boxer - height 6'3" reach 80"). When you make a universal statement like that it only takes one example to the contrary to invalidate it according to the rules of logic.

Poet

Well, long time not seen Poet :) Don't cling to the words. It's just boxing adage. Of course, more accurate is to say "in most cases". But you can not erase words from the song (another adage ;). And, as I recall, there was a rematch, where the good big boxer... you know.

NChristo
04-03-2010, 12:03 PM
Are you trying to compare that "Good big boxer" with the Klits ?, styles make fights and last I looked Foremans style is nothing like either of the Klits, stop trying to make the comparison that all big fighters would beat Frazier just because Foreman did, it's kind of silly.

Ziggy Stardust
04-03-2010, 12:05 PM
Well, long time not seen Poet :) Don't cling to the words. It's just boxing adage. Of course, more accurate is to say "in most cases". But you can not erase words from the song (another adage ;). And, as I recall, there was a rematch, where the good big boxer... you know.

Well met! I point it out because too many people cling dogmatically to those adages and all too often those adages are overly simplistic reasoning for complex problems. Most of them take hold because boxing broadcasters spout them over and over again because they believe the casual fan is too dumb to understand what's going on unless you give them Dick and Jane explanations.....then again, considering the intelligence level of many of the posters in NSB maybe the broadcasters have a point! ;)

Poet

Norton
04-03-2010, 12:12 PM
Are you trying to compare that "Good big boxer" with the Klits ?, styles make fights and last I looked Foremans style is nothing like either of the Klits, stop trying to make the comparison that all big fighters would beat Frazier just because Foreman did, it's kind of silly.

Not "just because Foreman did". There is a reason for the separation of boxers into weight categories. But if you need examples, you just gave one - Foreman. Another one - Ali. It is rare when big good boxers appears - mostly big guys rely on their height and weight advantages. But when they smart and skilled - like Ali, Lewis or Klitschkos, they dominate.

Norton
04-03-2010, 12:19 PM
Well met! I point it out because too many people cling dogmatically to those adages and all too often those adages are overly simplistic reasoning for complex problems. Most of them take hold because boxing broadcasters spout them over and over again because they believe the casual fan is too dumb to understand what's going on unless you give them Dick and Jane explanations.....then again, considering the intelligence level of many of the posters in NSB maybe the broadcasters have a point! ;)

Poet

That's for sure :rolleyes:

DeepSleep
04-03-2010, 02:28 PM
People harping on the whole size issue need to remember that height isn't that big of a deal compared to a fighter's reach/arm length. Wladmir has a reach of 81" and Vitali has a reach of 80", compare that to Ali who had a reach of 80". Now Ali was a much faster and accurate puncher than either Klitschko and he couldn't keep Frazier away from him. If Ali couldn't keep Frazier off him for 12 rounds I doubt either Klitschko could.

I don't think you can compare the Foreman fight to a fight with either Klitschko. Foreman loved having people coming inside on him, his hooks and uppercuts were extremely effective inside where he could throw them fairly quickly and with terrifying force. The Klitshko's are through and through out fighters. Both of the Big-K brothers like having people at range where they can use their power effectively and don't have too much infighting experience unlike Foreman. The Klitschko's may generate a similar amount of power to Foreman at range but in close I don't think either can hit nearly as hard as Foreman does.

I think Wlad has next to no chance of beating Frazier due to his chin being rather questionable. Vitali on the other hand could give Frazier a decent fight. If Vitali can tie up Frazier effectively on the inside he may be able to catch him coming in with one of his big straight right hands. If Frazier gets inside and Vitali doesn't clinch him the fight will be rather one sided, Vitali doesn't have the speed or style to fight inside like Foreman and he would get chopped down. His chin and power will give him a chance but I'm not sure he could tie up Frazier effectively for 12 rounds.

JAB5239
04-03-2010, 03:41 PM
prime norton,shavers,lyle,and young all shouldve been on his resume.do you agree?

Sorry, but Shavers, Lyle, and Young all rose to prominence at the time when Frazier was on his way out. As for Norton, he was Frazier's stable mate AND sparring partner as well as a close friend: That fight was never going to happen.

BTW, it's pretty revealing about your boxing knowledge that you regard guys like Quarry, Bonevena, and Jones as bums.

Oh, and 1 win over Ali > than all of Wlad and Vitali's wins COMBINED.

Poet

Thanks for covering that for me Poet. What is way off to me is that he totally dismissed Quarry, yet Jerry annihilated Shavers and beat Lyle. It seem our friend Ron does not understand almost every fight misses a few fighters around their time. He may have lost, but should Frazier be condemned for fighting Ali or Foreman multiple times instead of other contenders who's timing just wasn't right for a fight to be made to begin with?

GJC
04-03-2010, 03:47 PM
please show me 1 good win on mathis resume.i'll wait


George Chuvalo, sorry for your wait.

r.burgundy
04-03-2010, 08:09 PM
Who was that guy who went life and death with Frazier 3 times? His technique was pretty decent if I remember rightly and Frazier gave him nightmares. :boxing:

technique was great but power was ****:boxing:

r.burgundy
04-03-2010, 08:15 PM
George Chuvalo, sorry for your wait.

lol if you say so

r.burgundy
04-03-2010, 08:20 PM
People harping on the whole size issue need to remember that height isn't that big of a deal compared to a fighter's reach/arm length. Wladmir has a reach of 81" and Vitali has a reach of 80", compare that to Ali who had a reach of 80". Now Ali was a much faster and accurate puncher than either Klitschko and he couldn't keep Frazier away from him. If Ali couldn't keep Frazier off him for 12 rounds I doubt either Klitschko could.

I don't think you can compare the Foreman fight to a fight with either Klitschko. Foreman loved having people coming inside on him, his hooks and uppercuts were extremely effective inside where he could throw them fairly quickly and with terrifying force. The Klitshko's are through and through out fighters. Both of the Big-K brothers like having people at range where they can use their power effectively and don't have too much infighting experience unlike Foreman. The Klitschko's may generate a similar amount of power to Foreman at range but in close I don't think either can hit nearly as hard as Foreman does.

I think Wlad has next to no chance of beating Frazier due to his chin being rather questionable. Vitali on the other hand could give Frazier a decent fight. If Vitali can tie up Frazier effectively on the inside he may be able to catch him coming in with one of his big straight right hands. If Frazier gets inside and Vitali doesn't clinch him the fight will be rather one sided, Vitali doesn't have the speed or style to fight inside like Foreman and he would get chopped down. His chin and power will give him a chance but I'm not sure he could tie up Frazier effectively for 12 rounds.

so wlad has a questionable chin but joe doesnt lol?so now foreman has roy jones speed.get real.forman was slow as syrup and threw big looping punches from a mile away.stop trying to twist history.foreman didnt have a varied attack on offense.he was a slugger.plain and simple

GJC
04-03-2010, 08:20 PM
lol if you say so
Tough fighter Chuvalo you should look him up.

r.burgundy
04-03-2010, 08:23 PM
Sorry, but Shavers, Lyle, and Young all rose to prominence at the time when Frazier was on his way out. As for Norton, he was Frazier's stable mate AND sparring partner as well as a close friend: That fight was never going to happen.

BTW, it's pretty revealing about your boxing knowledge that you regard guys like Quarry, Bonevena, and Jones as bums.

Oh, and 1 win over Ali > than all of Wlad and Vitali's wins COMBINED.

Poet

it also shows your retarded bias being even trying to justify the fact that frazier didnt fight norton,shavers,young,and lyle.i personally think he beats them all except young but fights arent fought on paper.norton,shavers,and lyle were 3 of the big punchers of that era and joe didnt fight them for whatever reason

r.burgundy
04-03-2010, 08:23 PM
Tough fighter Chuvalo you should look him up.

yes he was tough,and thats as far as it goes with him

JAB5239
04-03-2010, 08:24 PM
technique was great but power was ****:boxing:

Its funny you his power **** when he knocked out better fighters than either Klitschko.

Liston
Patterson
Williams
Terrell
Folley
Quarry
Bonovena
Ellis
Frazier
Foreman
Lyle

Ko'ing no hopers doesn't make one a great puncher.

r.burgundy
04-03-2010, 08:27 PM
Thanks for covering that for me Poet. What is way off to me is that he totally dismissed Quarry, yet Jerry annihilated Shavers and beat Lyle. It seem our friend Ron does not understand almost every fight misses a few fighters around their time. He may have lost, but should Frazier be condemned for fighting Ali or Foreman multiple times instead of other contenders who's timing just wasn't right for a fight to be made to begin with?

in this day and age it would be called ducking.cmon man,quarry sucks.lyle an shavers were chin chnned but they had big punches and joes chin was shaky in his 2 fights with a big puncher.

stop listning to poets crap.you know full well that joe coulda used those fights

JAB5239
04-03-2010, 08:28 PM
it also shows your retarded bias being even trying to justify the fact that frazier didnt fight norton,shavers,young,and lyle.i personally think he beats them all except young but fights arent fought on paper.norton,shavers,and lyle were 3 of the big punchers of that era and joe didnt fight them for whatever reason

Because Futch trained both him and Norton and they were stable mates, Because the timing wasn't right for a Lyle or Shavers fight and both were destroyed by Quarry who you discredited, and Joe had bigger fish to fry besides an inconsistent Young. Any more questions?

r.burgundy
04-03-2010, 08:30 PM
Its funny you his power **** when he knocked out better fighters than either Klitschko.

Liston
Patterson
Williams
Terrell
Folley
Quarry
Bonovena
Ellis
Frazier
Foreman
Lyle

Ko'ing no hopers doesn't make one a great puncher.

dude just quit.its 1 thing not to like the klits but to even act as if ali has comparable power.cmon man

JAB5239
04-03-2010, 08:34 PM
in this day and age it would be called ducking.cmon man,quarry sucks.lyle an shavers were chin chnned but they had big punches and joes chin was shaky in his 2 fights with a big puncher.

stop listning to poets crap.you know full well that joe coulda used those fights

It wasn't called ducking in an era that was multiple times better than today, so why would it be ducking now.

Quarry sucked? I really thought you knew better than that, I was wrong. Obviously you haven't watched Quarry fight to often.

Name me all the fighters at heavy who have better resumes than Frazier and explain why. Can you do it? It shouldn't be very difficult since you look so far down upon Frazier. I'll wait.

And by the way, whether you like him or not, Poet has an excellent grasp on boxing history.

Ziggy Stardust
04-03-2010, 08:40 PM
It wasn't called ducking in an era that was multiple times better than today, so why would it be ducking now.

Quarry sucked? I really thought you knew better than that, I was wrong. Obviously you haven't watched Quarry fight to often.

Name me all the fighters at heavy who have better resumes than Frazier and explain why. Can you do it? It shouldn't be very difficult since you look so far down upon Frazier. I'll wait.

And by the way, whether you like him or not, Poet has an excellent grasp on boxing history.

You have to understand the kind of circular logic that some of these nitwits use: "Quarry lost twice to that no-skill bum Frazier therefore Quarry must REALLY suck balls if he lost twice to that bum"

Poet

JAB5239
04-03-2010, 09:13 PM
dude just quit.its 1 thing not to like the klits but to even act as if ali has comparable power.cmon man

Who has knocked out the better fighters? You said Ali's power was ****. I've made a list of fighters who Ali ko'd. Show me a list of fighters either Klit has ko'd and we can debate from there if you're up to it.

One more round
04-04-2010, 02:14 AM
Who has knocked out the better fighters? You said Ali's power was ****. I've made a list of fighters who Ali ko'd. Show me a list of fighters either Klit has ko'd and we can debate from there if you're up to it.

While there is no question who stopped the better fighters, I think Wlad's one shot power is superior to Ali's, who was a decent puncher with speed, but by no means a great puncher.

JAB5239
04-04-2010, 02:58 AM
While there is no question who stopped the better fighters, I think Wlad's one shot power is superior to Ali's, who was a decent puncher with speed, but by no means a great puncher.

I'd agree with this 100%. There is a big difference in what you posted though and saying Ali "didn't punch for ****".

Snopkins
04-04-2010, 04:43 AM
i dont think a fighter in history has ever been rewarded more for losing


It's quite disgusting that a cherry picker would receive as much credit as frazier does.His legacy is that of a leech who spent his entire career ducking and avoiding punchers.A man who failed to clear his division of all opposition and left that to fighters who actually had a pair.



God knows how many times Ali's name has been brought up in this thread.Just go's to show how shallow frazier's legacy really is.

ironalex
04-04-2010, 09:01 AM
Fraziers style would be a nightmare for the K bros. They are very upright and don't tuck their chins, and they don't seem to like fighting inside. Everyone they face fights them at their reach. Frazier would be inside and never take a step back. I'm not so certain they would even have any punching power in close.

I agree, Frazier would defintly eat up Wlad, and he would of beaten Vitali also.

Ziggy Stardust
04-04-2010, 12:51 PM
My legacy is that of a leech who spent his entire life stealing oxygen from those far more worthy of breathing.

Ah! Slimeypoophead finally admits the truth!

Poet

r.burgundy
04-04-2010, 02:42 PM
Who has knocked out the better fighters? You said Ali's power was ****. I've made a list of fighters who Ali ko'd. Show me a list of fighters either Klit has ko'd and we can debate from there if you're up to it.

me and you have much different takes on what a beter fighter is.ali fought the best of his era,he was able to k.o some.ali also fought alot of bums of the month,and wasnt able to k.o them.

vitali will finish his career with possibly the highest k.o ratio in history which means he k.od the best fighters he fought along with the worst.unlike ali.wlad has the possibilty of getting his ratio up to 90 as well.you can try and twist facts all you want,but stats dont lie.ali's k.o ration is around 65% .many of which can be attributed to fatigue of chasing him around the ring.

klits would k.o anybody ali has stopped but i cant say vice versa

geribeetus
04-04-2010, 02:50 PM
who really knows. manny steward has said wlad has more power than tyson. as much as i like frazier, i can't say i'd bet my house that his chin would hold up.

bojangles1987
04-04-2010, 03:12 PM
Who has knocked out the better fighters? You said Ali's power was ****. I've made a list of fighters who Ali ko'd. Show me a list of fighters either Klit has ko'd and we can debate from there if you're up to it.

Ease up on him JAB, he's not here to debate, he's here to troll. I know it's hard to ignore that kind of idiocy, but you'll never get anywhere.

JAB5239
04-04-2010, 03:19 PM
Ease up on him JAB, he's not here to debate, he's here to troll. I know it's hard to ignore that kind of idiocy, but you'll never get anywhere.

I know Bo, that why I didn't respond to his last post. These guys like to make claims but hate to back them up with any substance.

them_apples
04-04-2010, 07:09 PM
The Klitschkos are good punchers, but not great punchers. They don't hit as hard as even Lewis. they do throw a lot though and their opponent's aren't to great at avoiding shots and they lack heart. Wlad has a bit more pop than Vitali, but I'd pick Wlad to lose against most decent punchers because his defense is pretty much just based on his height.

Ali's power was average, he had some pop in his straight right hand but aside from that he tended to opt for speed and fluidity. His right hand was his money punch though, speed kills and that shot could knock you out.

I think Ali would have stopped Wlad probably around round 8, He'd decision Vitali or possibly stop him as well. I think Lewis would have stopped Vitali had the fight gone longer or had Lewis been at his peak.

Any good inside fighter with head movement would handle The K bros. Even if they did eat a shot coming in, It's not one shot KO power they are facing.

r.burgundy
04-04-2010, 07:56 PM
The Klitschkos are good punchers, but not great punchers. They don't hit as hard as even Lewis. they do throw a lot though and their opponent's aren't to great at avoiding shots and they lack heart. Wlad has a bit more pop than Vitali, but I'd pick Wlad to lose against most decent punchers because his defense is pretty much just based on his height.

Ali's power was average, he had some pop in his straight right hand but aside from that he tended to opt for speed and fluidity. His right hand was his money punch though, speed kills and that shot could knock you out.

I think Ali would have stopped Wlad probably around round 8, He'd decision Vitali or possibly stop him as well. I think Lewis would have stopped Vitali had the fight gone longer or had Lewis been at his peak.

Any good inside fighter with head movement would handle The K bros. Even if they did eat a shot coming in, It's not one shot KO power they are facing.

mike tyson once said everybody has a gameplan till they get hit.so say frazier survives that hit is silly to me

Bushidō
04-05-2010, 12:17 AM
I don't think Wlad would know what to do with Frazier.

JAB5239
04-05-2010, 12:21 AM
I don't think Wlad would know what to do with Frazier.

Sure he would.....same thing he did with Sanders and in the first Brewster fight. ZZZZZZZZZZ..............ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ......... ............ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.................... .ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ............................ZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.........................ZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.....................ZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.............................ZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.......................... ...

DeepSleep
04-05-2010, 12:37 AM
so wlad has a questionable chin but joe doesnt lol?so now foreman has roy jones speed.get real.forman was slow as syrup and threw big looping punches from a mile away.stop trying to twist history.foreman didnt have a varied attack on offense.he was a slugger.plain and simple

Frazier was never knocked out by any fighters who were as bad as Lamon Brewster or Ross Purity, so I would say Frazier doesn't have a questionable chin like Wlad.

Foreman's hooks in close weren't Roy Jones Jr. fast but they were much faster than either of the K-Bro's hooks.

I never said Foreman had a varied offense, I said his hooks and uppercuts were faster and more powerful in close quarters than the K-Bros whose jabs and straights were more effective than big George's at range.

The Klitschko's are out fighters and Foreman was an in-fighter, comparing Frazier fight with Foreman to a fight with Vitali or Wlad is pointless

them_apples
04-05-2010, 12:40 AM
Frazier was never knocked out by any fighters who were as bad as Lamon Brewster or Ross Purity, so I would say Frazier doesn't have a questionable chin like Wlad.

Foreman's hooks in close weren't Roy Jones Jr. fast but they were much faster than either of the K-Bro's hooks.

I never said Foreman had a varied offense, I said his hooks and uppercuts were faster and more powerful in close quarters than the K-Bros whose jabs and straights were more effective than big George's at range.

The Klitschko's are out fighters and Foreman was an in-fighter, comparing Frazier fight with Foreman to a fight with Vitali or Wlad is pointless

Frazier was actually tough as nails..like you said. his chin was great, his heart was even greater. He's like todays Marquez, you simply can't knock him out.

CarlosG815
04-05-2010, 12:43 AM
who really knows. manny steward has said wlad has more power than tyson. as much as i like frazier, i can't say i'd bet my house that his chin would hold up.

Klitschko is Manny's boy, don't forget that.

Don't forget the speed in which Tyson put behind every punch, that's the difference.

Wlad would have to pull the trigger and actually land it. Joe was able to dodge Ali's speed fairly well and Ali is 100x faster than Wlad.

The fact is Joe beat Ali, and as long as that remains a fact, people will give Joe the benefit of the doubt over either Klitschko, as Ali at the time he fought Frazier, is better than either Klitschko, and any fighter they've ever faced.

BillyBoxing
04-05-2010, 12:48 AM
Fraziers style would be a nightmare for the K bros. They are very upright and don't tuck their chins, and they don't seem to like fighting inside. Everyone they face fights them at their reach. Frazier would be inside and never take a step back. I'm not so certain they would even have any punching power in close.

hmmmm...

Remember Foreman vs Frazier.

Ho,and Foreman was just 6.3.

JAB5239
04-05-2010, 12:59 AM
hmmmm...

Remember Foreman vs Frazier.

Ho,and Foreman was just 6.3.

Foreman was throwing hooks and upper cuts, the Klits throw more jabs and rights. In other words Frazier would be moving right into Foremans power zone as we all well know, but be slipping under that of the Klits. That doesn't make it an automatic win, but its something to think about.

Snopkins
04-05-2010, 04:36 AM
frazier was put down close to a dozen times in his career,ducked virtually every puncher of his generation and was put down six times in two rounds.........how does he not have a questionable chin?

EzzardFan
04-05-2010, 05:10 AM
Foreman was throwing hooks and upper cuts, the Klits throw more jabs and rights. In other words Frazier would be moving right into Foremans power zone as we all well know, but be slipping under that of the Klits. That doesn't make it an automatic win, but its something to think about.

Good point. He's built to be big slow moving jabbing heavies like those guys.

C.Y.
04-05-2010, 05:55 AM
i think alot of people are underestimating the abilities of the klits.. i am not big fans of either fighter, but they do have some skills.. i can see the outcome of frasier beating both klits, ko'ing the chinny wlad, but i can also see frasier getting his ass handed to him as well.. the biggest thing for frasier is idk if he would have the speed to get inside consistently and be effective, but i know once he does get inside frasier is going to do alot of damage.. keep in mind the klits are some huge heavyweights with an outstanding reach. wlad especially has a pretty efficient jab with power to match.. it would be interesting fights.. i would liked to have seen mike tyson vs the klits, as i think he would fare better against them

them_apples
04-05-2010, 09:08 AM
mike tyson once said everybody has a gameplan till they get hit.so say frazier survives that hit is silly to me

Believe me Frazier was a hard man, it's going to take more than one hit to throw his gameplan off. Check the Frazier vs Bonevana fight.

r.burgundy
04-05-2010, 11:01 AM
Foreman was throwing hooks and upper cuts, the Klits throw more jabs and rights. In other words Frazier would be moving right into Foremans power zone as we all well know, but be slipping under that of the Klits. That doesn't make it an automatic win, but its something to think about.

you never fail to show that your an idiot.its easier to get inside on hooks than it is straits genious.thats why ali hit frazier with damn near eveyy jab he threw.problem is they didnt have a ton of pop on them unlike the klits.and the wlad in paticular has a very deep bag of punches.if you think he just throws jabs and straits then you havent seen many fights

r.burgundy
04-05-2010, 11:05 AM
Believe me Frazier was a hard man, it's going to take more than one hit to throw his gameplan off. Check the Frazier vs Bonevana fight.

my father is 63.he says the same thing i say.frazier was a c level fighter who beat an A level fighterhe has to A fighters on his resume went 1-5.he was eviscerated by big george.he lasted a total of 7 rounds in 2 fights and didnt land 1 meaningful punch.if he was really tough he wouldve fought shavers,norton,lyle and jimmy young,like foreman and ali

r.burgundy
04-05-2010, 11:06 AM
Good point. He's built to be big slow moving jabbing heavies like those guys.

what big,slow jabbing heavy handed heavies did frazier beat for you to figure this out???i'll wait

EzzardFan
04-05-2010, 11:19 AM
what big,slow jabbing [heavy handed]* heavies did frazier beat for you to figure this out???i'll wait

You mean apart from Bugner and Mathis right?

*[]'s added by troll.

Personally I reckon Bugner would murder both the Klits but they might stand a chance against Mathis.

r.burgundy
04-05-2010, 11:35 AM
You mean apart from Bugner and Mathis right?

*[]'s added by troll.

Personally I reckon Bugner would murder both the Klits but they might stand a chance against Mathis.

lmao good god man.stop acting like you got a mental block.mathis was 6'2 and 900lbs.so by yuor logic thats comparable to muscular 6'7 and 250 lol.your begining to fall into the idiot zone.your man crush for joe is disturbing

JAB5239
04-05-2010, 11:44 AM
you never fail to show that your an idiot.its easier to get inside on hooks than it is straits genious.thats why ali hit frazier with damn near eveyy jab he threw.problem is they didnt have a ton of pop on them unlike the klits.and the wlad in paticular has a very deep bag of punches.if you think he just throws jabs and straits then you havent seen many fights

Let me ask you something......have you ever actually watched a fight let alone been in the ring?

Ali misses more punches against Frazier than any fighter he ever fought. Would you care to argue that? He was also many times faster than either of the Klits. Nobody says Wlad can't throw an upper cut or hook, but that really isn't his style now compared to Foreman who did it on the regular, is it?

JAB5239
04-05-2010, 11:46 AM
lmao good god man.stop acting like you got a mental block.mathis was 6'2 and 900lbs.so by yuor logic thats comparable to muscular 6'7 and 250 lol.your begining to fall into the idiot zone.your man crush for joe is disturbing

You asked for slow jabbing heavies and he gave them to you. Now you're flaming because you have no argument. :gay:

Ziggy Stardust
04-05-2010, 01:42 PM
You asked for slow jabbing heavies and he gave them to you. Now you're flaming because you have no argument. :gay:

He's also proved himself to be a bullsh1t artist with this line:
he was eviscerated by big george.he lasted a total of 7 rounds in 2 fights and didnt land 1 meaningful punch.

Considering Frazier spun Foreman's head around a couple of times with left-hooks in their first fight shows that r.burgundy either

A. Hasn't actually WATCHED the fight

or

B. Ignores all evidence that gives the lie to his agenda

Six of one half-dozen of the other.

Poet

geribeetus
04-05-2010, 02:11 PM
Foreman was throwing hooks and upper cuts, the Klits throw more jabs and rights. In other words Frazier would be moving right into Foremans power zone as we all well know, but be slipping under that of the Klits. That doesn't make it an automatic win, but its something to think about.

i agree they rely more on them, but wlad's been known to stretch guys with a single left hook. vitali doesn't throw conventional punches, but he does have a hook, although it doesn't seem to be as good as wladimir's.

all i'm saying is if wlad has the kind of power steward says he does, he's got at least a fighting chance against frazier. and i think wlad's speed gets badly underrated on the history forums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqIDl-_5HZY

i don't think they make 1-2s a lot faster than the one 6 seconds in. wlad might not hit frazier as much as ali, but none of us can say for sure what would happen when he does land.

JAB5239
04-05-2010, 02:37 PM
i agree they rely more on them, but wlad's been known to stretch guys with a single left hook. vitali doesn't throw conventional punches, but he does have a hook, although it doesn't seem to be as good as wladimir's.

all i'm saying is if wlad has the kind of power steward says he does, he's got at least a fighting chance against frazier. and i think wlad's speed gets badly underrated on the history forums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqIDl-_5HZY

i don't think they make 1-2s a lot faster than the one 6 seconds in. wlad might not hit frazier as much as ali, but none of us can say for sure what would happen when he does land.

Wlad has a chance, that I wouldn't even argue. And Wlad does throw a mean left hook. But if you watch Foreman fight, his hooks are coming up or down in a somewhat chopping motion.. Wlads punches are technically more refined which would give Frazier a greater chance of slipping underneath them.

Wlad is better than I give him credit for much of the time. But he's not as good as many on here make him out to be. That said...he's still a angerous fighter.

them_apples
04-05-2010, 03:16 PM
Wlad has a chance, that I wouldn't even argue. And Wlad does throw a mean left hook. But if you watch Foreman fight, his hooks are coming up or down in a somewhat chopping motion.. Wlads punches are technically more refined which would give Frazier a greater chance of slipping underneath them.

Wlad is better than I give him credit for much of the time. But he's not as good as many on here make him out to be. That said...he's still a angerous fighter.

Foreman just timed an nice uppercut, he missed with most of his hooks as well untill he had Frazier on queer street from uppercuts.

The K bros have no uppercut, the key punch to dismantling a pressure fighter with head movement. This is why Ali had so much trouble with Frazier, he's a head hunter with no uppercut.

The K bros simply don't have a good uppercut to deal with Frazier and that is why i made this thread.

them_apples
04-05-2010, 03:18 PM
hmmmm...

Remember Foreman vs Frazier.

Ho,and Foreman was just 6.3.

6'4 * in (ring shoes) 6'3 1/2, power punching beast with an 82 reach.

i don't get Foremans Tale of the tape, he's listed as 6'4 in his comeback with a 79 reach, in his prime he's 6'3 1/2 with an 82 reach. Ali is listed as having a 80 reach but it looks like he's got at least 82, he said in the "when we were kings" dvd that his reach was 84..I which i don't believe.

geribeetus
04-05-2010, 05:22 PM
Foreman just timed an nice uppercut, he missed with most of his hooks as well untill he had Frazier on queer street from uppercuts.

The K bros have no uppercut, the key punch to dismantling a pressure fighter with head movement. This is why Ali had so much trouble with Frazier, he's a head hunter with no uppercut.

The K bros simply don't have a good uppercut to deal with Frazier and that is why i made this thread.

good post but i still disagree. like you said, it only took foreman a nice uppercut, so he didn't have to hit frazier with many punches. wlad has less power, but is the more refined puncher and would probably have an easier time landing a hook than foreman. frazier can make his man miss a lot, but not all of them. and once he's inside frazier will stay there and won't move his head as much. he'd also have a harder time smothering punches against someone as tall as either klitschko. i remember bonavena timing frazier with the hook a lot when he was moving inside. i assume anyone trained by manny steward will have better timing than bonavena.

i just think they've, got a better chance than most are giving them credit for.

them_apples
04-09-2010, 10:24 PM
good post but i still disagree. like you said, it only took foreman a nice uppercut, so he didn't have to hit frazier with many punches. wlad has less power, but is the more refined puncher and would probably have an easier time landing a hook than foreman. frazier can make his man miss a lot, but not all of them. and once he's inside frazier will stay there and won't move his head as much. he'd also have a harder time smothering punches against someone as tall as either klitschko. i remember bonavena timing frazier with the hook a lot when he was moving inside. i assume anyone trained by manny steward will have better timing than bonavena.

i just think they've, got a better chance than most are giving them credit for.

Ali had a harder time landing on Frazier, reason being - his uppercut had no beef on it. for an ATG fighter Ali's uppercut was seriously lacking. Probably because it's a punch you throw when you are closer to your opponent.

I think the Klitschkos have really fought next to no adversity. whenever they are faced with any level of competition it usually makes them look bad. there oponents have 0 head movement. I mean Areolla was basically a fat Cleveland Williams with probably less power. Just walking forward with no skill at all.