View Full Version : Joe Frazier vs Larry Holmes


boxingbuff
03-23-2010, 05:25 PM
Who do you think would win and why?

CarlosG815
03-23-2010, 05:30 PM
I gotta say Holmes does what Foreman did to him but hopefully, in Frazier's prime, not as quick.

T3dBundy
03-23-2010, 07:53 PM
I gotta say Holmes does what Foreman did to him but hopefully, in Frazier's prime, not as quick.

i agree holmes would win, but not by demolition like foreman.
it would be a competitive fight, holmes stops him probably in the last rounds.

Sugarj
03-24-2010, 07:27 AM
Decision for Holmes in a very competitive fight, I certainly rate prime Holmes (circa 1980) to be better than the 1971 Ali that lost to Frazier.

Holme's Jab and uppercut would be key. Larry also had a very good defense against the left hook with his high right hand. Actually from memory, I dont remember him going down from a left hook, Tyson and Shavers hurt him with right hands.

I'd estimate a 9,6 decision something like that. Terrific fight on paper!

sonnyboyx2
03-24-2010, 08:42 AM
Prime Holmes vs Prime Frazier - replica of Tyson v Holmes.... Frazier KO4

Sugarj
03-24-2010, 09:01 AM
Hi Sonnyboyx, I dont think too many would agree with you on that one.

The prime Tyson that fought Holmes was far faster than any version of Frazier......and the Holmes that fought him was 38, years out of the ring, rusty and even then was decked with right hands, not left hooks.

Each unto their own.

Ziggy Stardust
03-24-2010, 09:15 AM
I'm sorry, but as much as I respect Frazier and love to watch his fights Holmes is the better fighter of the two.

Poet

sonnyboyx2
03-24-2010, 09:18 AM
Hi Sonnyboyx, I dont think too many would agree with you on that one.

The prime Tyson that fought Holmes was far faster than any version of Frazier......and the Holmes that fought him was 38, years out of the ring, rusty and even then was decked with right hands, not left hooks.

Each unto their own.

Sugarj... i am not looking for anyone to agree with me, i answered the question who would win and how.. i see the fight being similar to Tyson v Holmes.. Holmes never fought anyone in his whole career that was as good as Joe Frazier where as Frazier fought fighters better or as good as Holmes... Up unto his fight with Ken Norton, Holmes was always thought of as having a very weak chin, he was not given much chance of winning the heavyweight title due to his weak chin, when we now look back at the career of Larry Holmes it is fair to say that he fought a hell of a lot of Tomato-Cans`and when he did fight top competition he was often floored or wobbled, many of his top oponents was not really murderous punchers, like Snipes, Bey, Mercer, Arrington, Weaver yet they had Holmes on `queer-street`.. no opponent in his entire career was of the calibre of Smokin`Joe Frazier.. no opponent in his entire career put pressure on and could punch like Smokin`Joe Frazier.. IMO i see Frazier having very little trouble with Holmes and see him bombing him out in around 4rds... Holmes struggled all his career with pressure fighters and no fighter put pressure on like Frazier

Sugarj
03-24-2010, 10:28 AM
Hi Sonnyboyx, I'm suprised that you'd say that Holmes never fought anyone as good as Frazier his entire career. I'd argue that peak Mike Tyson and peak Evander Holyfield were at least of the calibur of Joe Frazier and Larry fought them well past prime and had good moments at least in both fights. Spinks and Witherspoon were good opponents too, and he faced these guys on the slide.

Larry had one of the best chins in heavyweight boxing history. Stopped only once (in how many decades as a fighter?) against prime Tyson in a multi knockdown fourth round when out of the ring for two or three years is no disgrace. The first knockdown was one of the hardest punch impacts I've ever seen, yet Larry kept getting up till the end.

He was labelled 'chinny' very wrongly. Sports writers doubted his heart after the Bobick fight in the amateurs.

I'll never change your mind on a subject and you're very faithful to your faves, but just for my amusement......would you pick prime Jerry Quarry over prime Larry Holmes too?

sonnyboyx2
03-24-2010, 11:03 AM
Hi Sonnyboyx, I'm suprised that you'd say that Holmes never fought anyone as good as Frazier his entire career. I'd argue that peak Mike Tyson and peak Evander Holyfield were at least of the calibur of Joe Frazier and Larry fought them well past prime and had good moments at least in both fights. Spinks and Witherspoon were good opponents too, and he faced these guys on the slide.

Larry had one of the best chins in heavyweight boxing history. Stopped only once (in how many decades as a fighter?) against prime Tyson in a multi knockdown fourth round when out of the ring for two or three years is no disgrace. The first knockdown was one of the hardest punch impacts I've ever seen, yet Larry kept getting up till the end.

He was labelled 'chinny' very wrongly. Sports writers doubted his heart after the Bobick fight in the amateurs.

I'll never change your mind on a subject and you're very faithful to your faves, but just for my amusement......would you pick prime Jerry Quarry over prime Larry Holmes too?

Howard Cosell called Holmes `chinny` while commentating on his fight with Ibar Arrington, Holmes was very fortunate against Roy`Tiger`Williams and was never thought of as being able to take a punch..

Holmes like you say fought well against both Holyfield & Tyson when he was well past his best, yet IMO they are not Joe Frazier, i respect both Tyson & Holyfield but Frazier applied far more pressure than both of them, Tyson was only 21yrs old when he beat Holmes yet he `smashed him`.. Holyfield vs Holmes was more of a boxing match which as expected the younger guy won... Spinks & Witherspoon are not in the same league as Joe Frazier and IMO i dont think Holmes is either... Holmes was good but Frazier was better.

Quarry vs Holmes would be a great fight, both have completely different styles, i would favor Holmes to win a close decision, but if he was hurt at any time in the fight like he often was then Quarry would most certainly finish him off

i have watched quite a lot of all three fighters, i have around 42 Holmes fights, 23 Frazier fights & 28 Quarry fights on DVD all three are great to watch

Ray*
03-24-2010, 11:47 AM
Holmes would have won by a decent margin IMO, The Holmes jab would have made it too difficult for Frazier to get close or inside and i can hurt Frazier too, Cant see how frazier would win it to be honest.

Sugarj
03-24-2010, 11:50 AM
Hi Sonnyboyx, Cosell was a lawyer bless him.......and a damn good commentator but he had no right to label Holmes chinny from the other side of the ropes. I doubt he'd ever taken a punch in his life! Being hurt, staggered or knocked down means little when a fighter gets up to win and Larry certainly did that.

Hell Ali was staggered and put down by lesser fighters too, he was labelled 'chinny' for a while also. Both Larry and Ali had great chins some of the best ever in heavyweight championship history, most would rate Larry's over Frazier's.

Other than that I did enjoy your post and agree with alot of what you say. But 21 year old Tyson was at his peak, he just hit it younger than most.

I'm a huge fan of Frazier and rate him very highly, just not quite as high as Holmes, as I said earlier I think it would be a decision win for Holmes, but no landslide.

Earlier on you stated that you didn't think Holmes fought anyone in Frazier's league, but I'd argue that Frazier never actually 'beat' anyone in Holmes's league. I'd rate peak Holmes well over the likes of Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Mathis, Bugner and even the 71 Ali. Just a thought?

The_Demon
03-24-2010, 11:53 AM
Holmes would win a decision

them_apples
03-24-2010, 12:08 PM
Prime Holmes vs Prime Frazier - replica of Tyson v Holmes.... Frazier KO4

I agree, but he'd get Holmes in the championship rounds. Holmes was tougher back then and Frazier didn't hit as hard as Tyson.

CarlosG815
03-24-2010, 12:11 PM
I'm just trying to figure out how many licks does a Joe Frazier take to get to the center of a Larry Holmes pop... I can only imagine it'd be too many.

If Frazier fought a perfect fight and was able to cut off the ring and dodge Larry's jab and that nasty right hand, maybe, but Frazier never did that. He ate jabs - taking 2-3 punches before he got inside.

:dunno:

sonnyboyx2
03-24-2010, 12:56 PM
Hi Sonnyboyx, Cosell was a lawyer bless him.......and a damn good commentator but he had no right to label Holmes chinny from the other side of the ropes. I doubt he'd ever taken a punch in his life! Being hurt, staggered or knocked down means little when a fighter gets up to win and Larry certainly did that.

Hell Ali was staggered and put down by lesser fighters too, he was labelled 'chinny' for a while also. Both Larry and Ali had great chins some of the best ever in heavyweight championship history, most would rate Larry's over Frazier's.

Other than that I did enjoy your post and agree with alot of what you say. But 21 year old Tyson was at his peak, he just hit it younger than most.

I'm a huge fan of Frazier and rate him very highly, just not quite as high as Holmes, as I said earlier I think it would be a decision win for Holmes, but no landslide.

Earlier on you stated that you didn't think Holmes fought anyone in Frazier's league, but I'd argue that Frazier never actually 'beat' anyone in Holmes's league. I'd rate peak Holmes well over the likes of Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Mathis, Bugner and even the 71 Ali. Just a thought?
SugarJ, you are entitled to your opinion which i certainly aint knocking.... here is my opinion on the fighters you mentioned, "i think the night Muhammad Ali lost to Frazier in 1971 was Ali`s greatest career performance" he was brilliant and threw more punches than any heavyweight in history (punch-stats was never counted or available back then) yet Frazier absorbed all those punches and landed his own brutal punches on Ali to slow him down and win the fight, it was the greatest fight in history and the two greatest performances in history.. after the fight Frazier had to be lifted into a bath of ice-cubes "4hrs in, 4hrs out" for the next 48hrs.. he then lapsed into a coma for 7 days and spent over a month in the hospital.. Joe Frazier is what i call a `Great Great Fighter`

Holmes has never faced that kind of adversity in his career at the level, his fight with Norton was a Top 5 all time fight (i had Norton winning).. yet Norton aint no Joe Frazier.

Bonavena was one of the roughest & toughest two-fisted brawlers in heavyweight history (watch his 2nd fight with Frazier) Ringo was a difficult fight for any heavyweight, he very nearly KOd Muhammad Ali in 1970.. if fighting today IMO Bonavena would have little trouble cleaning out the division.

Quarry is my favorite fighter, he had his limitations and blew hot & cold on several occasions, yet on his best nights he was a tough fight for any fighter, his life was a rollercoaster which led to his downfall... most fans today judge Quarry on his performances against Ali & Norton, yet in my opinion those was his worst performances, to see Quarry at his very best is to view his fights with Shavers, Alexander, Mathis, Lyle, Foster, Patterson, Miteff, Bodell and Frazier I which is a forgotten classic... Quarry & Bonavena would be a tough fight for anyone and IMO they would beat every fighter who Larry Holmes beat when he was in his Prime.

Sugarj
03-24-2010, 01:35 PM
Hi Sonnyboyx, again thoroughly enjoyed your post. I think we are attacking this from different angles.

I'm a big fan of fight of the century and have watched it dozens of times, agreed great performance by both, but Ali spent so many rounds with his back on the ropes. To be honest he didn't dance much at all, even in the first round he wasn't on his toes too much. Great heart, punchrate but poor gameplan. Ali's gameplan was much better in 74 but that is another thread. Holmes would have surely jabbed, moved and circled on his toes rather than been kept on the ropes for large portions of the fight. I dont doubt Frazier would get Larry on the ropes but not for as long.

I completely respect Frazier for his triumph but peak Holmes was faster, more mobile and defensively adept than that Ali. I dont feel that a fighter has to be in an attritional life or death war to be considered as great. Holmes was slippery and lasted longer as a fighter because he never had to absorb the punishment that Frazier did in 71.

No perhaps your right in that Holmes never fought someone who was to Frazier what Ali was, but that doesn't mean Larry wasn't better than the Ali that Frazier beat. For seven years Larry beat the best of the division, its all he could do.

As for Quarry, Ringo etc. Yes great fighters, but they are heavyweight top 30 guys, Holmes and Frazier are top ten rated. Would Quarry and Bonavena beat Witherspoon, Norton, Cooney, Weaver? I wouldn't be too sure, possibly.....but not fights I'd bet on.

sonnyboyx2
03-24-2010, 02:42 PM
Hi Sonnyboyx, again thoroughly enjoyed your post. I think we are attacking this from different angles.

I'm a big fan of fight of the century and have watched it dozens of times, agreed great performance by both, but Ali spent so many rounds with his back on the ropes. To be honest he didn't dance much at all, even in the first round he wasn't on his toes too much. Great heart, punchrate but poor gameplan. Ali's gameplan was much better in 74 but that is another thread. Holmes would have surely jabbed, moved and circled on his toes rather than been kept on the ropes for large portions of the fight. I dont doubt Frazier would get Larry on the ropes but not for as long.

I completely respect Frazier for his triumph but peak Holmes was faster, more mobile and defensively adept than that Ali. I dont feel that a fighter has to be in an attritional life or death war to be considered as great. Holmes was slippery and lasted longer as a fighter because he never had to absorb the punishment that Frazier did in 71.

No perhaps your right in that Holmes never fought someone who was to Frazier what Ali was, but that doesn't mean Larry wasn't better than the Ali that Frazier beat. For seven years Larry beat the best of the division, its all he could do.

As for Quarry, Ringo etc. Yes great fighters, but they are heavyweight top 30 guys, Holmes and Frazier are top ten rated. Would Quarry and Bonavena beat Witherspoon, Norton, Cooney, Weaver? I wouldn't be too sure, possibly.....but not fights I'd bet on.

Nice reply Sugarj... watching Larry Holmes throughout his championship days it was always my opinion that Holmes was a better fighter when he fought `Flat-Footed`and not on his toes, when he did fight on his toes i always thought he was not very good at it, Muhammad Ali, Roy Jones & Ray Leonard could do it brilliantly, but Holmes fell way short of those guys when trying... When fighting flat footed Holmes defence was very difficult to penetrate yet on his toes he was vulnerable (Tyson, Shavers fights) Holmes was able to continue fighting well into his 40s because he no longer had the legs to fight on his toes so fought flat-footed and used his great ringcraft & defence..

i dont agree that Holmes was faster than Muhammad Ali, Ali was the fastest heavyweight who ever lived, "A Dancing Master with Lightening fast hands" a boxing genius who could fight for fun.. yet Frazier smoked his body then took his head, the body attack from Frazier in his fight with Ali in 71 and in Manila was the most savage body attack i have ever seen from a fighter and i have 20,000+ fights... we will never know who would have won between Holmes & Frazier, we can only put our case forward of how we think it would have unfolded, yet the one thing that is certain is that it would be a hell of a fight between 2 ATG Top 10 Heavyweights

Sugarj
03-24-2010, 02:49 PM
Oh I agree, peak Ali had the faster hands, only Patterson had a faster left, but not in 71. I'd argue that Holmes hands in 1980 were faster than Ali's in 71. Ali did get quicker as the decade went on though. I'd say that the 1974 Ali had something like his old handspeed back.

As for Holmes's dancing and jabbing, I quite liked it. It was different to Ali's and Walcott's and for me he punched well of it. Check out the Cooney fight for a good Holmes display of mobile boxing.

As for sick body attacks.......yes Frazier 71 and Manilla 75, pretty nasty. Ali was urinating blood after those fights.

boxingbuff
03-24-2010, 04:27 PM
I believe this would be a great fight,with Frazier stopping Holmes around the 11-13 rounds while behind on points.

Holmes wins the early rounds,as Frazier comes on stronger in the middle rounds,and wears down Holmes down the stretch to stop him.

Frazier's body shots would start to take there toll in the later rounds.And Holmes would have nothing left in the championship rounds.

Holmes fought the entire 3 minutes of every round(Unlike Ali)and he wouldn't have anything left in the later rounds from Frazier's unrelenting pressure and body shots.

Holmes had a good chin,but not as good as Ali's,and would not be able to take the shots that Muhammad Ali took.

I see Frazier stopping Holmes in a great fight,while being behind on points.But not far behind.If the fight went 15 rounds it would be very close.Just like Norton-Holmes.But Frazier putting on more pressure than Norton,and landing harder shots than Norton.Especially more and harder body shots than Norton.

EzzardFan
03-25-2010, 06:16 AM
This is an interesting one and I'd love to see it. Homes was not a big puncher so that argues well for Frazier. I see the Holmes uppercut as presenting an equally big problem for Joe a his jab. Frazier would make it inside though in the later rounds and not sure whether Holmes would take one of those left hooks. I like to think that Frazier would win.