View Full Version : More Accomplished HW Lennox Lewis Or Joe Frazier?


Southpaw16BF
03-19-2010, 05:21 PM
Well? Who was the greater and more accomplished HW?

Snopkins
03-19-2010, 05:28 PM
Without question it has to be Lennox Lewis.

fight_professor
03-19-2010, 05:38 PM
Lennox. 3 times world champion, beat everyman he ever faced by virtue of rematch. Smoke's only losses are to 2 of the alltime greats in Ali and George, so that softens that blow somewhat.

I'd pick LL 4/5 to bt Frazier in a head to head too. If Joe landed flush ala Ali 1, it's lightsout, but LL would keep him at bay.

One more round
03-19-2010, 09:26 PM
This thread will be a hate battle between sonnyboy and snopkins

cooper5
03-19-2010, 09:38 PM
Joe Frazier had a better run. Remember he was fighting for the undisputed title for longer and losing to Ali and Foreman is alot more respectable than ko loses to McCall and Rahman. Frazier beat Ali in one of the greatest matchups and battles if heavyweight history.

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 12:07 AM
Joe beat Ali. He was damaged goods when he lost to George. Frazier was in the toughest era of HW boxing and he beat everybody, including the best (of all time maybe?).

Lennox Lewis fought in the worst era, and lost to bums like Hasim Rahman.

Joe Frazier without question.

wmute
03-20-2010, 12:40 AM
Joe beat Ali. He was damaged goods when he lost to George. Frazier was in the toughest era of HW boxing and he beat everybody, including the best (of all time maybe?).

Lennox Lewis fought in the worst era, and lost to bums like Hasim Rahman.

Joe Frazier without question.

Are you serious?

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 03:28 AM
Joe beat Ali. He was damaged goods when he lost to George. Frazier was in the toughest era of HW boxing and he beat everybody, including the best (of all time maybe?).

Lennox Lewis fought in the worst era, and lost to bums like Hasim Rahman.

Joe Frazier without question.

you said everything which needed to be said on this topic..

Yet we will still hear the nuthuggers who know nothing about this sport or its history trying to spew-out that Lennox would keep him at bay with his imaginary jab and that Lennox would do what Foreman done to him in less than 2rds or that Lennox is just too BIG and heavy and that Frazier had never fought anyone who was 6`5ins tall

yet the truth is that Frazier fought several guys who measured up to Lewis in height and weight and beat them all.... When did Lennox ever show us this great imaginary jab?... was it against Frank Bruno?

it took Lennox 8rds to beat a heavily sedated washed-up version of Mike Tyson and if Rahman & McCall could smash Lennox Lamp then Frazier would smash it into a million pieces.

NChristo
03-20-2010, 05:07 AM
you said everything which needed to be said on this topic..

Yet we will still hear the nuthuggers who know nothing about this sport or its history trying to spew-out that Lennox would keep him at bay with his imaginary jab and that Lennox would do what Foreman done to him in less than 2rds or that Lennox is just too BIG and heavy and that Frazier had never fought anyone who was 6`5ins tall

yet the truth is that Frazier fought several guys who measured up to Lewis in height and weight and beat them all.... When did Lennox ever show us this great imaginary jab?... was it against Frank Bruno?

it took Lennox 8rds to beat a heavily sedated washed-up version of Mike Tyson and if Rahman & McCall could smash Lennox Lamp then Frazier would smash it into a million pieces.

This thread isn't about who would win if they fought each other, it's about who accomplished more :P.

lyrical
03-20-2010, 05:25 AM
Frazier was fighting in a better era

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 05:49 AM
This thread isn't about who would win if they fought each other, it's about who accomplished more :P.

well it is a `no-brainer` as far as accomplishments, Frazier is the former ubdisputed Heavyweight Champion who won the greatest fight in the sports history and against the sports No1 fighter, "FIGHT OF THE CENTURY"...

Lewis won the undisputed title in his rematch against a washed-up Holyfield even tho 42 of 48 ringside reporters had Holyfield as the winner.... link below from Britains No1 fight publication.

http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/9912/one.htm

mickey malone
03-20-2010, 06:44 AM
well it is a `no-brainer` as far as accomplishments, Frazier is the former ubdisputed Heavyweight Champion who won the greatest fight in the sports history and against the sports No1 fighter, "FIGHT OF THE CENTURY"...

Lewis won the undisputed title in his rematch against a washed-up Holyfield even tho 42 of 48 ringside reporters had Holyfield as the winner.... link below from Britains No1 fight publication.

http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/9912/one.htm
I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a no brainer, but as far as accomplishments are concerned, I'd go marginally with Frazier.. That was the worst beating Ali ever took in my opinion, and it gives Joe the nod on this one..

Shazam!
03-20-2010, 07:12 AM
The guy who argued for Joe Frazier stated that Lennox Lewis fought in the weakest era in boxing history. Now, if he was confident in his argument, do you think he'd need to resort to such a ridiculous statement as that?

Frazier's victory against Ali is up there with the greatest ever accomplishments in heavyweight history, but he did lose four fights to Ali and Foreman after that. He was dominated so much by Foreman that it was depressing. It's hard to imagine Lewis being dominated by anyone and he was able to adjust his game when he needed to, in order to overcome every type of opponent he faced. Lewis worked out and beat everyone. That's the mark of an ATG ala Muhammad Ali.

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 08:39 AM
The guy who argued for Joe Frazier stated that Lennox Lewis fought in the weakest era in boxing history. Now, if he was confident in his argument, do you think he'd need to resort to such a ridiculous statement as that?

Frazier's victory against Ali is up there with the greatest ever accomplishments in heavyweight history, but he did lose four fights to Ali and Foreman after that. He was dominated so much by Foreman that it was depressing. It's hard to imagine Lewis being dominated by anyone and he was able to adjust his game when he needed to, in order to overcome every type of opponent he faced. Lewis worked out and beat everyone. That's the mark of an ATG ala Muhammad Ali.

Frazier lost twice to Ali & twice to Foreman.. he very nearly beat Muhammad Ali 3-0.. Foreman was a `Monster the likes of which we have never seen since`.. Frazier beat some great fighters during his reign in : Bonavena (twice), Quarry (twice), Ellis, Chuvalo, Mathis, Bugner, Mathis, Foster, Machen and many more.

Lewis fought a bunch of has-beens who was all on the slide and at the tail-end of their careers, along with a couple of over-hyped bums like Grant, Mavrovic, Botha, Butler, Fortune, Ruddock (damaged goods), Tucker (junkie), Tua, Bruno, Akinwande, Morrison (HIV), Jackson.. Lewis got poleaxed by Rahman & McCall two journeymen, The referee could have counted to 100 without Lewis beating the count..

Frazier was floored 6 times in 2rds by the Monsterous Foreman before being stopped on his feet, which showed the toughness and ability to take punches from the sports hardest ever puncher..

Rahman & McCall never again in their careers did they poleaxe an opponent in the way that Lewis went down, which is a clear sign that it was not the power of their punch but the weak whiskers of Lennox Lewis... Lewis always avoided big punchers his whole career in guys like, Whitherspoon, Bonecrusher, Sanders, Wlad Klitschko, Hide, Cooper, Bowe, Tyson (in 96)..

Smokin Joe Frazier is rated in the Top 10 of every Boxing historian & commentator who ever compiled a list.. Lennox Lewis barely makes anyones Top 20

Silencers
03-20-2010, 09:45 AM
Lewis had the longer reign but Frazier's run, while shorter was great. It depends on what you like to rank it on, a shorter but exemplary reign and run or a longer more lengthy reign that isn't as exemplary.

Shazam!
03-20-2010, 10:10 AM
Lewis got poleaxed by Rahman & McCall two journeymen, The referee could have counted to 100 without Lewis beating the count..

*Yawn* That must have been why Lennox got up on a 6 count?

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 10:15 AM
Lewis had the longer reign but Frazier's run, while shorter was great. It depends on what you like to rank it on, a shorter but exemplary reign and run or a longer more lengthy reign that isn't as exemplary.

Lewis & Frazier was roughly the undisputed champion for around the same length of time.. Frazier fought the best opponents in Foreman, Quarry, Ali, Bonavena etc... Lewis avoided all the No1 contenders in Byrd (IBF), Ruiz (WBA) & Klitschko (WBC) so was stripped of every belt..

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 10:21 AM
*Yawn* That must have been why Lennox got up on a 6 count?

yeah... but was still out of it 10 minutes later and had to be helped down the ring steps, glassy eyed by his brother and handlers.. i know because i was there.

General Zod
03-20-2010, 10:33 AM
I would have to go with Frazier, its no shame losing to all time greats like Ali and Foreman. I think it also depends on how much you rate Lewis's wins over the like of past prime Holyfield and past prime Tyson, who were his best wins

Silencers
03-20-2010, 10:38 AM
Lewis & Frazier was roughly the undisputed champion for around the same length of time.. Frazier fought the best opponents in Foreman, Quarry, Ali, Bonavena etc... Lewis avoided all the No1 contenders in Byrd (IBF), Ruiz (WBA) & Klitschko (WBC) so was stripped of every belt..

I don't mean their undisputed title reigns, Frazier was at or neat the top of the heavyweight division for about 6 or 7 years, Lewis for about 10.

You really can't blame Lewis for not fighting those guys, it was rumored that Lewis offered a fight to Ruiz and Ruiz turned it down, Wlad lost to Purrity when he was groomed for fighting Lewis and I really don't hold it against Lewis for retiring instead of fighting Vitali again. And Byrd at the time wasn't as highly rated as he would become. Lewis fought almost every well rated heavyweight in the 90s and early 2000s.

Thinking over it again I'd give the edge to Frazier but I don't think there's really too much to pick between them.

T3dBundy
03-20-2010, 10:40 AM
fraziers victory over ali was better than anything lennox did, thats for sure.
i think the only reason why i would rate lennox over frazier is his dominance, but frazier fought also in an era where it was harder to dominate.
so i can understand some ppl rate him over lennox, but im not, because i believe lennox size alone would beat many great heavyweights from the past.
ali has to be at his very best to beat him also, im not sure about 70s ali beating lennox.
head2head prime frazier would beat lennox in 1 out of 3 fights i would say.
i dont like lennox, but he was a big heavyweight with good skills, cant deny that.

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 10:53 AM
fraziers victory over ali was better than anything lennox did, thats for sure.
i think the only reason why i would rate lennox over frazier is his dominance, but frazier fought also in an era where it was harder to dominate.
so i can understand some ppl rate him over lennox, but im not, because i believe lennox size alone would beat many great heavyweights from the past.
ali has to be at his very best to beat him also, im not sure about 70s ali beating lennox.
head2head prime frazier would beat lennox in 1 out of 3 fights i would say.
i dont like lennox, but he was a big heavyweight with good skills, cant deny that.

who did Lewis ever beat to put him as favorite in your book to beat Muhammad Ali of the 70s who beat Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Quarry, Bugner, Mathis, Bonavena, Bob Foster, Mac Foster, Shavers, Norton, Young, Chuvalo etc etc etc....
Maybe you rate, Grant, Botha, Fortune, Tua, Butler, Jackson, Akinwande, Bruno & Morrison as better quality opponents than the guys who Muhammad Ali fought..

Rahman & McCall both poleaxed Lennox Lewis and never before or after in their entire career`s did they manage to poleaxe anyother opponent, yet you think Muhammad Ali who hit hard enough to level George Foreman would be unable to beat Lewis... talk about a ****in dick sucker

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 10:58 AM
fraziers victory over ali was better than anything lennox did, thats for sure.
i think the only reason why i would rate lennox over frazier is his dominance, but frazier fought also in an era where it was harder to dominate.
so i can understand some ppl rate him over lennox, but im not, because i believe lennox size alone would beat many great heavyweights from the past.
ali has to be at his very best to beat him also, im not sure about 70s ali beating lennox.
head2head prime frazier would beat lennox in 1 out of 3 fights i would say.
i dont like lennox, but he was a big heavyweight with good skills, cant deny that.

And people ask me if I'M serious? You've got to be joking.

Ziggy Stardust
03-20-2010, 11:09 AM
And people ask me if I'M serious? You've got to be joking.

He's a post-modern fan who can't get past size as the determinate factor in comparing fighters. He thinks Heavyweights should top the pound-4-pound ratings since they have more pounds than anyone else.

Poet

T3dBundy
03-20-2010, 11:09 AM
who did Lewis ever beat to put him as favorite in your book to beat Muhammad Ali of the 70s who beat Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Quarry, Bugner, Mathis, Bonavena, Bob Foster, Mac Foster, Shavers, Norton, Young, Chuvalo etc etc etc....
Maybe you rate, Grant, Botha, Fortune, Tua, Butler, Jackson, Akinwande, Bruno & Morrison as better quality opponents than the guys who Muhammad Ali fought..

Rahman & McCall both poleaxed Lennox Lewis and never before or after in their entire career`s did they manage to poleaxe anyother opponent, yet you think Muhammad Ali who hit hard enough to level George Foreman would be unable to beat Lewis... talk about a ****in dick sucker

did u saw the rematch against rahman?
unlike u im not a delusional hater, lennox has a good chance of beating ali and frazier, doesnt matter prime or not.
and im one of the biggest ali fans here.
u should go relax first, then come back and respond again, because its just a fantasy match-up, nothing serious.

T3dBundy
03-20-2010, 11:12 AM
He's a post-modern fan who can't get past size as the determinate factor in comparing fighters. He thinks Heavyweights should top the pound-4-pound ratings since they have more pounds than anyone else.

Poet

who is talking with u?
do u have a life besides talking **** about ppl like a girl who doesnt agree with u?

General Zod
03-20-2010, 11:17 AM
did u saw the rematch against rahman?
unlike u im not a delusional hater, lennox has a good chance of beating ali and frazier, doesnt matter prime or not.
and im one of the biggest ali fans here.
u should go relax first, then come back and respond again, because its just a fantasy match-up, nothing serious.
I remember Lewis getting outboxed by Bruno of all people, how do you see a Lewis Ali fight playing out?

Ziggy Stardust
03-20-2010, 11:18 AM
who is talking with u?
do u have a life besides talking **** about ppl like a girl who doesnt agree with u?

It's a public forum. You post it here you make it everyone's business. If you don't want others throwing their 2 cents in then take it to PM.

Poet

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 11:24 AM
did u saw the rematch against rahman?
unlike u im not a delusional hater, lennox has a good chance of beating ali and frazier, doesnt matter prime or not.
and im one of the biggest ali fans here.
u should go relax first, then come back and respond again, because its just a fantasy match-up, nothing serious.

if like you claim Lewis has a good chance against Ali & Frazier then so too must Rahman & McCall...

i am not a hater nor am i a nuthugger, i tell it how it actually was so stop deluding yourself and coming out with bazaar statements which cannot be taken serious..

i have always found Lewis nuthuggers to be the ones who know the least about the sport of boxing.. they think that size is the decider and make quotes like "Lennox would just be too big" or "Lennox would keep him behind the jab" .... but who did Lewis ever keep behind the jab in his career? .... was Lewis too big for Ocassio, Tua or Billups who are all under 6ft tall, why did he not just knock them out if he was "Too Big"

T3dBundy
03-20-2010, 11:25 AM
I remember Lewis getting outboxed by Bruno of all people, how do you see a Lewis Ali fight playing out?

i would favour ali to beat lennox, but ali had also troubles watch the doug jones fight, which is one of my favorite ali fights btw.
he was not a superhuman either, i see lennox has a good chance, thats all im saying.


if like you claim Lewis has a good chance against Ali & Frazier then so too must Rahman & McCall...

i am not a hater nor am i a nuthugger, i tell it how it actually was so stop deluding yourself and coming out with bazaar statements which cannot be taken serious..

i have always found Lewis nuthuggers to be the ones who know the least about the sport of boxing.. they think that size is the decider and make quotes like "Lennox would just be too big" or "Lennox would keep him behind the jab" .... but who did Lewis ever keep behind the jab in his career? .... was Lewis too big for Ocassio, Tua or Billups who are all under 6ft tall, why did he not just knock them out if he was "Too Big"


u like ignoring what i have said and putting words into my mouth or ?
first of all i said lennox is big & skilled, not just a big bum ala valuev.
2. u r known as a lennox hater, so dont act like u r just talking about facts.
3. i dont want to call names and discredit fraziers career, thats why im out of this debate, thank you.

General Zod
03-20-2010, 11:31 AM
i would favour ali to beat lennox, but ali had also troubles watch the doug jones fight, which is one of my favorite ali fights btw.
he was not a superhuman either, i see lennox has a good chance, thats all im saying.
Ive never really enjoyed any of Alis fights against opponents other then Frazier and Foreman, but ill check that fight out. I heard he struggled badly in it.

General Zod
03-20-2010, 11:32 AM
i have always found Lewis nuthuggers to be the ones who know the least about the sport of boxing.. they think that size is the decider and make quotes like "Lennox would just be too big" or "Lennox would keep him behind the jab" .... but who did Lewis ever keep behind the jab in his career?
Evander Holyfield I

Shazam!
03-20-2010, 11:57 AM
yeah... but was still out of it 10 minutes later and had to be helped down the ring steps, glassy eyed by his brother and handlers.. i know because i was there.

Haha. First you state Lewis would have never gotten up even if the ref had counted to 100. Then when I pointed out he actually got up after a 6 count, you, completely un-embarassed, pass it off and state you were at the fight. Do you have alzheimers or are you just a bit spastic ;-)

If someone's at the fight, you'd think they'd remember how it ended, eh?

Shazam!
03-20-2010, 11:58 AM
Evander Holyfield I

Correct. Lewis battered Holyfield with the jab that night. This sonnyboy guy is the first person I've ever heard state that Lewis didn't have a jab.

General Zod
03-20-2010, 12:07 PM
Correct. Lewis battered Holyfield with the jab that night. This sonnyboy guy is the first person I've ever heard state that Lewis didn't have a jab.
Sonny hates Lewis for some reason, a lot of his posts on Lewis are very biased

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 12:17 PM
Sonny hates Lewis for some reason, a lot of his posts on Lewis are very biased

Because Lewis is slow, boring, over rated and dodged every good fighter until he knew he could beat them, or never fought them at all.

General Zod
03-20-2010, 12:21 PM
Because Lewis is slow, boring, over rated and dodged every good fighter until he knew he could beat them, or never fought them at all.
Lewis is boring no doubt, even Manny said the same thing in a very tactful way. Who did Lewis duck according to you?

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 12:22 PM
Haha. First you state Lewis would have never gotten up even if the ref had counted to 100. Then when I pointed out he actually got up after a 6 count, you, completely un-embarassed, pass it off and state you were at the fight. Do you have alzheimers or are you just a bit spastic ;-)

If someone's at the fight, you'd think they'd remember how it ended, eh?

was the Rahman fight that the referee could have counted to 100 and Lewis would not have made it up... No heavyweight champion in the history of the sport has been poleaxed like what Lewis was by Rahman and Rahman never replicated that punch against any other of his career opponents and your claiming Lewis would beat the great Muhammad Ali.... get real you clown

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 12:26 PM
Sonny hates Lewis for some reason, a lot of his posts on Lewis are very biased

Nope... i dont hate Lewis, i like to tell disillusioned nuthuggers the correct story of the facts on the career of Lennox Lewis... The truth hurts!

Shazam!
03-20-2010, 12:41 PM
i like to tell disillusioned nuthuggers the correct story of the facts on the career of Lennox Lewis... The truth hurts!

Dude, if someone who'd never seen Lewis and didn't know his record came on this board and read your posts, they'd believe Lewis to be nothing more than a b-level fighter. I think some of the wild exagerrations and truth bending you do are pretty indicative of your bias against Lewis. I don't see a lot of objective points or balanced arguments coming out of your posts.

When you list the people Lewis fought, for example, you lean towards the weaker opponents instead of the stronger ones. You forget to mention that he beat Holyfield, Tyson, Klitschko, Mercer, Ruddock.......and if you do, you've got an argument against each and every one. 'over the hill', 'druggie' etc etc etc.

I mean, for one or two fighters, you could get away with it...but you don't do yourself any favours by trying so hard to blow up the negatives while completing ignoring all the positives.

General Zod
03-20-2010, 12:44 PM
Nope... i dont hate Lewis, i like to tell disillusioned nuthuggers the correct story of the facts on the career of Lennox Lewis... The truth hurts!
All you tell are blatant lies and half truths

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 01:08 PM
Lewis is boring no doubt, even Manny said the same thing in a very tactful way. Who did Lewis duck according to you?

Tyson, Holyfield, Byrd, Bowe, and probably some others. And don't give me any **** about Bowe. Bowe wanted Lewis bad. He'd have fought him on the street for nothing if he ran into him. Lewis used slimey tactics to dodge Bowe and I thought that was a well known fact. Where are you getting your information from? The Lennox Lewis fan club?

General Zod
03-20-2010, 01:18 PM
Tyson, Holyfield, Byrd, Bowe, and probably some others.
Bowe:
I have posted this on another thread and I going to assume you missed it so I will post it again.

Bowe was not Holyfield's WBC mandatory, Razor Ruddock was, which means that Evander was under no obligation to fight him or offer him a fair deal.

After winning the court case so that he was free to defend his belt against Bowe, the WBC had an elimination bout to decide who would be the no 1 wbc mandatory between Lewis and Ruddock, Lewis won

Lewis was Bowe's WBC mandatory, so he had to cut Lewis a more fair deal like ,60/40.

After beating Holyfield Bowe fought a washed up Dokes and a washed up Ferguson, so I think we can safely say he wasnt looking for tough fights. And as you can see after beating Holyfield he didnt want to train anymore, which is why Futch eventually left him.

Holyfield:
Lewis wanted to fight Holyfield but he lost to Bowe, he finally did get his shot and we all know what happened there.

Tyson:
Tyson paid Lewis step aside money if I remember correctly, Tyson only wanted to fight easy fights as well which is why he fought Holyfield and look how that played out.

Byrd:
Lewis couldnt motivate himself to fight someone like Byrd, so he vacated the IBF belt. You dont really believe that Byrd would of beat Lewis do you? Lewis was at least as good as the K bros and they both gave Byrd fits.

And don't give me any **** about Bowe. Bowe wanted Lewis bad. He'd have fought him on the street for nothing if he ran into him. Lewis used slimey tactics to dodge Bowe and I thought that was a well known fact. Where are you getting your information from? The Lennox Lewis fan club?
If Lewis was the real reason for the Bowe Lewis fight not happening dont you think it would of made more sense for the WBC to simply drop Lewis from the mandatory spot, rather than strip Bowe?

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 01:22 PM
When you list the people Lewis fought, for example, you lean towards the weaker opponents instead of the stronger ones. You forget to mention that he beat Holyfield, Tyson, Klitschko, Mercer, Ruddock.......and if you do, you've got an argument against each and every one. 'over the hill', 'druggie' etc etc etc.


lmao :haha:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Did you watch the Holyfield fights? 2002 Tyson? hah! I could have put up a better fight than Tyson did in his state. Whatever anti depressant mix with dope he was on took away any chance he had. The only reason he lasted as long as he did is because he was so medicated he probably didn't feel the punches he took while he moved in slow motion. Ray Mercer, the joke of the 90's? Washed up slack jaw Ruddock? A fight with a klitch (battle of the borings) in which he probably would have lost had it not been stopped? That's what you bring up to boast about his resume? Get real.

General Zod
03-20-2010, 01:27 PM
lmao :haha:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Did you watch the Holyfield fights? 2002 Tyson? hah! I could have put up a better fight than Tyson did in his state. Whatever anti depressant mix with dope he was on took away any chance he had. The only reason he lasted as long as he did is because he was so medicated he probably didn't feel the punches he took while he moved in slow motion. Ray Mercer, the joke of the 90's? Washed up slack jaw Ruddock? A fight with a klitch (battle of the borings) in which he probably would have lost had it not been stopped? That's what you bring up to boast about his resume? Get real.
You know you could do this with anyones resume, including Tyson's. You do know that Ruddock was the last decent fighter Tyson fought and beat as well.

Ziggy Stardust
03-20-2010, 01:27 PM
in which he probably would have lost had it not been stopped?

Well yes, considering draws aren't THAT common the odds are he would have lost if he hadn't won :|

Poet

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 01:33 PM
You know you could do this with anyones resume, including Tyson's. You do know that Ruddock was the last decent fighter Tyson fought and beat as well.

He fought a much better version of Ruddock and he shattered his face. At least Tyson made it interesting and exciting when he battered weak opposition, unlike Lewis :sleeping:

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 01:35 PM
Well yes, considering draws aren't THAT common the odds are he would have lost if he hadn't won :|

Poet

I wouldn't expect you to be able to read between the lines.

Vitali was owning Lewis the first half of the fight before his eye opened up. It's a win for Lewis, but if Vitali had it his way he'd have finished the fight and had a great chance of winning.

General Zod
03-20-2010, 01:40 PM
He fought a much better version of Ruddock and he shattered his face. At least Tyson made it interesting and exciting when he battered weak opposition, unlike Lewis :sleeping:
I liked Ruddock he seemed like a good guy, unfortunately he career didnt exactly take off. I blame the 2nd Tyson fight for that, you are going to fight Tyson with no defence, no jab, no movement and unable to tie Tyson up on the inside so you take body shots all night.

Lewis could be boring no doubt about that, even Manny said the same thing although he worded it very tactfully. Saying something like Lewis fights are like watching Chess, a game which he wanted Lewis to stop playing, because he thought it made Lewis too analytical in the ring.

T3dBundy
03-20-2010, 01:40 PM
I wouldn't expect you to be able to read between the lines.

Vitali was owning Lewis the first half of the fight before his eye opened up. It's a win for Lewis, but if Vitali had it his way he'd have finished the fight and had a great chance of winning.

yes vitaly was winning, show me one fight where vitaly was behind in the scorecards, nobody beat vitaly confidently.
also to mention lennox was not in his prime anymore, he was 38 ffs

Ziggy Stardust
03-20-2010, 01:41 PM
I wouldn't expect you to be able to read between the lines.

Vitali was owning Lewis the first half of the fight before his eye opened up. It's a win for Lewis, but if Vitali had it his way he'd have finished the fight and had a great chance of winning.

I'm ill inclined to "read between the lines" when a statement is absurd at face value :|

Poet

General Zod
03-20-2010, 01:42 PM
I wouldn't expect you to be able to read between the lines.

Vitali was owning Lewis the first half of the fight before his eye opened up. It's a win for Lewis, but if Vitali had it his way he'd have finished the fight and had a great chance of winning.
Thats Vitali's fault, he should of worked on his D a bit more.

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 01:46 PM
I'm ill inclined to "read between the lines" when a statement is absurd at face value :|

Poet

Get a life troll, try to stay on topic.

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 01:47 PM
Thats Vitali's fault, he should of worked on his D a bit more.

Agreed. Although that punch most times doesn't have that effect.

Ziggy Stardust
03-20-2010, 01:49 PM
Get a life troll, try to stay on topic.

I have a life thank you very much; and I'm sure you'd like to have one too when you grow up.

Poet

BillyBoxing
03-20-2010, 01:57 PM
Frazier was fighting in a better era

I disagree,
70s was a greater era,but not better.

People tends to overrate this era because they were a lot of great match up and hype.

I think the 90s are underrated,obviously they were more athletic,bigger in the 90s.

A prime Tyson beat a prime Frazier,a prime Tua beat a prime Lyle in my humble opinion.

70s is the greater era,but his fghters are overrated.

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 02:02 PM
I disagree,
70s was a greater era,but not better.

People tends to overrate this era because they were a lot of great match up and hype.

I think the 90s are underrated,obviously they were more athletic,bigger in the 90s.

A prime Tyson beat a prime Frazier,a prime Tua beat a prime Lyle in my humble opinion.

70s is the greater era,but his fghters are overrated.

Gotta be the best joke ever posted on any boxing forum..... **** off back to watching Wrestling

Shazam!
03-20-2010, 02:09 PM
He fought a much better version of Ruddock and he shattered his face. At least Tyson made it interesting and exciting when he battered weak opposition, unlike Lewis :sleeping:

Ruddock went 19 rounds against Tyson and was the favourite to beat Lewis with all the bookmakers (who, let's be fair, know a **** load more about sport than you do, because their livelihoods depend on it).

and Lewis spectacularly knocked Ruddock out in two rounds.

Nice try though ;-)

Shazam!
03-20-2010, 02:17 PM
Bowe:
I have posted this on another thread and I going to assume you missed it so I will post it again.

Bowe was not Holyfield's WBC mandatory, Razor Ruddock was, which means that Evander was under no obligation to fight him or offer him a fair deal.

After winning the court case so that he was free to defend his belt against Bowe, the WBC had an elimination bout to decide who would be the no 1 wbc mandatory between Lewis and Ruddock, Lewis won

Lewis was Bowe's WBC mandatory, so he had to cut Lewis a more fair deal like ,60/40.

After beating Holyfield Bowe fought a washed up Dokes and a washed up Ferguson, so I think we can safely say he wasnt looking for tough fights. And as you can see after beating Holyfield he didnt want to train anymore, which is why Futch eventually left him.

Holyfield:
Lewis wanted to fight Holyfield but he lost to Bowe, he finally did get his shot and we all know what happened there.

Tyson:
Tyson paid Lewis step aside money if I remember correctly, Tyson only wanted to fight easy fights as well which is why he fought Holyfield and look how that played out.

Byrd:
Lewis couldnt motivate himself to fight someone like Byrd, so he vacated the IBF belt. You dont really believe that Byrd would of beat Lewis do you? Lewis was at least as good as the K bros and they both gave Byrd fits.


If Lewis was the real reason for the Bowe Lewis fight not happening dont you think it would of made more sense for the WBC to simply drop Lewis from the mandatory spot, rather than strip Bowe?

You've got a lot of patience man. Unfortunately all the facts and logic in the world are not enough if people don't wanna hear it.

T3dBundy
03-20-2010, 02:20 PM
I think the 90s are underrated,obviously they were more athletic.

http://flaggedforfollowup.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345201fa69e20105361aa965970c-800wi

ali looks pretty athletic to me.

Snopkins
03-20-2010, 02:23 PM
Joe beat Ali. He was damaged goods when he lost to George. Frazier was in the toughest era of HW boxing and he beat everybody, including the best (of all time maybe?).

Lennox Lewis fought in the worst era, and lost to bums like Hasim Rahman.

Joe Frazier without question.


Yes,ole Joe was damaged goods at age 29.Quite ironic that frazier fans would make such a claim and then give him so much credit for beating a 29 year old who relied entirely on his reflexes,who had just eighteen rounds under his belt and yet dismiss how easily frazier was rolled over by foreman.


frazier most certainly didn't beat everybody.Joe frazier left that work to the likes of much greater fighters like Ali and the slightly less talented,but much braver Jerry Quarry.These two mens were doing the work that frazier was supposed to be doing.

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 02:25 PM
Ruddock went 19 rounds against Tyson and was the favourite to beat Lewis with all the bookmakers (who, let's be fair, know a **** load more about sport than you do, because their livelihoods depend on it).

and Lewis spectacularly knocked Ruddock out in two rounds.

Nice try though ;-)

you are wrong..the odds for Lewis 10/11 Ruddock 11/10

Ruddock was Damaged Goods and Lewis knew it... i was at the fight in Earls Court, Ruddock had a huge Campervan parked outside on the carpark of Earls Court infront of the billboard which was advertising Genesis who was playing their the following week.... Ruddock never landed a punch and in his interview at ringside with Larry Merchant he said he had not acclimatised to the cold British weather, he also had his jaw & cheekbone smashed by Mike Tyson and was never the same fighter again

Ziggy Stardust
03-20-2010, 02:26 PM
You've got a lot of patience man. Unfortunately all the facts and logic in the world are not enough if people don't wanna hear it.

No, you can't really talk reason with someone's hard-core fans (aka nuthuggers) or someone's hard-core detractors. They're all more interested in dispensing propaganda than actually having a reasoned dicussion.

Poet

Toney616
03-20-2010, 02:28 PM
Yes,ole Joe was damaged goods at age 29.Quite ironic that frazier fans would make such a claim and then give him so much credit for beating a 29 year old who relied entirely on his reflexes,who had just eighteen rounds under his belt and yet dismiss how easily frazier was rolled over by foreman.
Frazier was on the slide after the first Ali fight, he was in the hospital for 6 weeks after the Ali fight. Style wise Foreman is a bad match up for Joe, which is why Durham and Futch were so against it.


frazier most certainly didn't beat everybody.Joe frazier left that work to the likes of much greater fighters like Ali and the slightly less talented,but much braver Jerry Quarry.These two mens were doing the work that frazier was supposed to be doing.
His a ATG so he must of been doing something right.

Shazam!
03-20-2010, 02:32 PM
Yes,ole Joe was damaged goods at age 29.Quite ironic that frazier fans would make such a claim and then give him so much credit for beating a 29 year old who relied entirely on his reflexes,who had just eighteen rounds under his belt and yet dismiss how easily frazier was rolled over by foreman.


frazier most certainly didn't beat everybody.Joe frazier left that work to the likes of much greater fighters like Ali and the slightly less talented,but much braver Jerry Quarry.These two mens were doing the work that frazier was supposed to be doing.

Well Frazier did beat Quarry twice, didn't he? But yeah, I see what you're saying. There are a lot of great fighters of that era that Frazier never fought. His style obviously gave Ali problems but he was totally dominated by Foreman. So much so that you have to believe Frazier could have fought Foreman 15-20 more times and would never have won. I believe the truly, truly great could find a way to at least be competitive with anyone. That is my reasoning. That they could rise to meet any new challenge because they were a master of the sport. That is why I rate Lennox Lewis so highly, up there near (but not equal to) Muhammad Ali. Because he found a way to beat everyone he faced, through the amateurs, through the Olympics and all throughout his professional career.

There's a great story about Lewis and Tyson sparring in about 83 when they were both teenagers and Tyson coming out like an animal, shocking and grazing Lewis. Then they came back the next day and Lewis apparently schooled Tyson because he'd figured him out. This, to me, typifies a great.

Going back to Joe Frazier, I would have loved to have seen him tested against a wider variety of opponents. Jimmy Young, Ken Norton etc.

T3dBundy
03-20-2010, 02:35 PM
Yes,ole Joe was damaged goods at age 29.Quite ironic that frazier fans would make such a claim and then give him so much credit for beating a 29 year old who relied entirely on his reflexes,who had just eighteen rounds under his belt and yet dismiss how easily frazier was rolled over by foreman.

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/50317496.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=E41C9FE5C4AA0A142CBA11B377B564A8D3297DB6D96ED883 33BB8B8AA7F5EF0BB01E70F2B3269972

a fight with ali is no walk in the park, he definitive slowed down after the first ali fight.
but i agree, even the best frazier would have lost to foreman, fraziers strategy take 2 punches to land 1 didnt work against the hardest puncher of all time and it never would.

Snopkins
03-20-2010, 02:38 PM
Frazier was on the slide after the first Ali fight, he was in the hospital for 6 weeks after the Ali fight. Style wise Foreman is a bad match up for Joe, which is why Durham and Futch were so against it.



There was no style other than Foreman was a puncher.Durham carefully guided frazier's career so that he avoid every ranked contender who could punch.


His a ATG so he must of been doing something right.



Certainly questionable whether frazier is a true ATG.



Well Frazier did beat Quarry twice, didn't he?



I didn't say Quarry was a better fighter than frazier,just alot braver.Quarry was a very popular figure during his years as a fighter.He could have picked and chose who he would fight just like frazier did,but he didn't.Other than Ali,I don't think any top heavyweight of that era fought at many contenders as Quarry did.

Shazam!
03-20-2010, 02:39 PM
you are wrong..the odds for Lewis 10/11 Ruddock 11/10

Ruddock was Damaged Goods and Lewis knew it... i was at the fight in Earls Court, Ruddock had a huge Campervan parked outside on the carpark of Earls Court infront of the billboard which was advertising Genesis who was playing their the following week.... Ruddock never landed a punch and in his interview at ringside with Larry Merchant he said he had not acclimatised to the cold British weather, he also had his jaw & cheekbone smashed by Mike Tyson and was never the same fighter again

Ruddock was the favourite to beat Lewis with most of the bookmakers. I don't know where you got those odds from but judging by the way you distort facts and carefully select information, I'm not surprised that you can find something. Watching the fight again, the commentators scream 'no one expected this'.

You say Ruddock hadn't acclimitised to the cold, British weather. What kind of an excuse is that? How about the hot weather in South Africa for Lewis's loss to Rahman?

Lewis KTFO'd Ruddock in 2 rounds. What kind of an excuse is 'Tyson broke his jaw' when they fought? Don't you think a fighter would wait until his jaw healed before entering a fight of this calibre? We're talking, what, a year later here?

But then again, I have never seen you acknowledge one positive thing relating to Lewis, so I don't expect you to start now. Keep hating ;-)

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 03:26 PM
Ruddock was the favourite to beat Lewis with most of the bookmakers. I don't know where you got those odds from but judging by the way you distort facts and carefully select information, I'm not surprised that you can find something. Watching the fight again, the commentators scream 'no one expected this'.

You say Ruddock hadn't acclimitised to the cold, British weather. What kind of an excuse is that? How about the hot weather in South Africa for Lewis's loss to Rahman?

Lewis KTFO'd Ruddock in 2 rounds. What kind of an excuse is 'Tyson broke his jaw' when they fought? Don't you think a fighter would wait until his jaw healed before entering a fight of this calibre? We're talking, what, a year later here?

But then again, I have never seen you acknowledge one positive thing relating to Lewis, so I don't expect you to start now. Keep hating ;-)

Every british bookmaker had Lewis odds-on to win.. i bet Lewis to win...Ruddocks excuse is lame and i dont accept just like you dont accept it so why should i accept Lewis excuse of `not being motivate, Lucky punch, ocean`s 11 etc etc etc when he got levelled by Rahman the journeyman... you claim Lewis beat everyman he got in the ring with when he ajusted himself.. "What garbage" Lewis fought no-one, he avoided all the top fighters of the 1990s... Foreman, Holmes, Whitherspoon, Sanders, Tyson, Roy Jones, Ruiz, Byrd,Wlad, Bowe, Moorer, Hide all held titles during 1992 - 2000 and Lewis avoided every single one of them because they was at the top of their game, Lewis held a version of the title back in 92 but wanted nothing to do with any of those fighters, he instead fought, Jackson, Tucker, Butler, Fortune, Mavrovic, Akinwande, Bruno, Grant, Tua, Briggs, Botha a real ****in who`s who of Legendary fighters... Lewis had a chance to fight Tyson in 96 but baulked out of it accepting step-a-side money instead of a guaranteed title fight and career highest purse... he could have easily said NO and went ahead with the fight but he knew he stood no chance against that version of Tyson...

Your claim of Tyson & Lewis fighting when only 16yrs old is far from what Jack Newfield tells in his book, he says Tyson destroyed Lewis in two sparring sessions that lasted 1 round each and that Lewis went back to Canada with his tail between his legs

Your good at listening to Lewis tell his nursey rhymes, yet you dismiss Riddick Bowe telling it how it really was about him & Lewis as rubbish.

you claim Lewis knocked **** out of Ruddock in 2rds yet went the distance with Tyson... so what!
Holyfield went 24rds with Lewis yet was floored by John Ruiz & KOd by James Toney.. Levi Billups went 10rds with Lewis but was KOd by every other opponent he fought.. David Tua went 12rds with Lewis but was schooled by Chris Byrd..

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 03:43 PM
Ruddock went 19 rounds against Tyson and was the favourite to beat Lewis with all the bookmakers (who, let's be fair, know a **** load more about sport than you do, because their livelihoods depend on it).

and Lewis spectacularly knocked Ruddock out in two rounds.

Nice try though ;-)

You're seriously comparing the Ruddock that fought Tyson to the Ruddock that fought Lewis? Get the **** OUTTA HERE. :haha: Smoke another one. :439:

Ruddock got DESTROYED and didn't go down. That's not taking anything away from Tyson, but it just shows how TOUGH Ruddock was. Then Lewis pitter patters him to a knockout in 2 rounds, and you think that Ruddock is on the same level as the younger, stronger, never had his jaw shattered Ruddock?

Nice try, man, but you're not going to have any success with that argument.

General Zod
03-20-2010, 03:46 PM
Every british bookmaker had Lewis odds-on to win.. i bet Lewis to win...
Ruddock was the clear favourite to win that fight, why are you twisting the facts?

Ruddocks excuse is lame and i dont accept just like you dont accept it so why should i accept Lewis excuse of `not being motivate, Lucky punch, ocean`s 11 etc etc etc when he got levelled by Rahman the journeyman... you claim Lewis beat everyman he got in the ring with when he ajusted himself.. "What garbage"
All fighters tell stories when they perform badly

Lewis fought no-one, he avoided all the top fighters of the 1990s... Foreman, Holmes, Whitherspoon, Sanders, Tyson, Roy Jones, Ruiz, Byrd,Wlad, Bowe, Moorer, Hide all held titles during 1992 - 2000 and Lewis avoided every single one of them because they was at the top of their game
Moorer
Youre just hating with that list, Teddy Atlas said he thought Lewis was too high a risk which is why Moorer faced Foreman instead of Lewis
Tyson:
Paid Lewis step aside money
Roy Jones:
Is that the same Jones who some how managed to miss all the punchers in all of the divisions he fought in? Jones had his hands full with Ruiz, no way would he have stood a chance against Lewis.
Ruiz, Byrd:
You cant be serious with these guys
Bowe:
Explained this already
Hide:
I hope you are joking with this
Witherspoon:
When was this fight possible? Wasnt he in court for a long time with King?
etc,etc
Lewis had a chance to fight Tyson in 96 but baulked out of it accepting step-a-side money instead of a guaranteed title fight and career highest purse... he could have easily said NO and went ahead with the fight but he knew he stood no chance against that version of Tyson...
Dude, lol. How could Lewis of forced Tyson to fight him, if he did that Tyson would of just vacated the belt. Tyson wanted to fight Holyfield because:
1: More Money
2: He fought Holyfield was shot


Holyfield went 24rds with Lewis yet was floored by John Ruiz & KOd by James Toney.. Levi Billups went 10rds with Lewis but was KOd by every other opponent he fought.. David Tua went 12rds with Lewis but was schooled by Chris Byrd..
You know you could do this with anyones resume?

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 03:50 PM
Yes,ole Joe was damaged goods at age 29.Quite ironic that frazier fans would make such a claim and then give him so much credit for beating a 29 year old who relied entirely on his reflexes,who had just eighteen rounds under his belt and yet dismiss how easily frazier was rolled over by foreman.


frazier most certainly didn't beat everybody.Joe frazier left that work to the likes of much greater fighters like Ali and the slightly less talented,but much braver Jerry Quarry.These two mens were doing the work that frazier was supposed to be doing.

Joe was blind, deaf and disabled with a bad shoulder at the time.

Age doesn't mean ****. Tyson was washed up in his early 20's, and Pacquiao is prime in his 30's, doesn't mean ****. And you want to talk about who knows fact when you spew nonsense like this?

Snopkins
03-20-2010, 04:01 PM
Joe was blind, deaf and disabled with a bad shoulder at the time.

Age doesn't mean ****. Tyson was washed up in his early 20's, and Pacquiao is prime in his 30's, doesn't mean ****. And you want to talk about who knows fact when you spew nonsense like this?


I'll ignore your idolatry of Tyson as I'm not interested in it


Your pitiful excuses for ole "smokey" are among the worse that I have ever heard.Most don't like to hear it,but frazier simply had a weak chin and foreman was the first puncher frazier ever stepped in the ring with.Punchers terrified frazier,which is why he spent his entire career routinely avoiding them.


Now go ahead and explain how "he beat everybody"

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 04:08 PM
I'll ignore your idolatry of Tyson as I'm not interested in it


Your pitiful excuses for ole "smokey" are among the worse that I have ever heard.Most don't like to hear it,but frazier simply had a weak chin and foreman was the first puncher frazier ever stepped in the ring with.Punchers terrified frazier,which is why he spent his entire career routinely avoiding them.


Now go ahead and explain how "he beat everybody"

I guess Ali hit like a ***** then? Cause Joe ate his punches for 15 rounds.

Snopkins
03-20-2010, 04:14 PM
I guess Ali hit like a ***** then? Cause Joe ate his punches for 15 rounds.



Close to it.I do know that Chuck Wepner and Alfredo Evangelista lasted longer against post Zaire Ali than frazier did.

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 04:21 PM
Ok you heard it, guys. The guy who knocked out 25 of 31 opponents hits like a ***** according to Snopkins.

You're even less credible now than you were 5 minutes ago which is bad.

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 04:49 PM
Ruddock was the clear favourite to win that fight, why are you twisting the facts?

All fighters tell stories when they perform badly

Moorer
Youre just hating with that list, Teddy Atlas said he thought Lewis was too high a risk which is why Moorer faced Foreman instead of Lewis
Tyson:
Paid Lewis step aside money
Roy Jones:
Is that the same Jones who some how managed to miss all the punchers in all of the divisions he fought in? Jones had his hands full with Ruiz, no way would he have stood a chance against Lewis.
Ruiz, Byrd:
You cant be serious with these guys
Bowe:
Explained this already
Hide:
I hope you are joking with this
Witherspoon:
When was this fight possible? Wasnt he in court for a long time with King?
etc,etc

Dude, lol. How could Lewis of forced Tyson to fight him, if he did that Tyson would of just vacated the belt. Tyson wanted to fight Holyfield because:
1: More Money
2: He fought Holyfield was shot


You know you could do this with anyones resume?

On the day of the fight Lennox Lewis was 10/11 favorite

How am i hating with a list of champions whom Lewis refused to fight.. you can ridicule those fighters all you wish but the fact remains that Lewis ducked them all..

Roy Jones - Lewis turned down the largest purse in pro sports history a staggering $35 million + PPV saying he had nothing to prove by fighting an ex middleweight which is a clear Duck

Hide - undefeated Hide repeatedly called out Lewis on British television after every defence of his WBO title, Hide vs Lewis was a huge money fight in the Uk.. Lewis wanted no part of it even when he lost his beloved WBC title.. clear case of Ducking an opponent

Tyson 1996 - Lewis had no need to accept step-a-side money, he could have easily said no and forced Tyson to fight him.. Tyson`s goal was to unify the title and become undisputed so your claim that Tyson would have dropped the belt is false.

Moorer was often interviewed and said he wanted to fight Lewis.. Lewis wanted no part of the crafty southpaw.

Ruiz - Ruiz had been hired by the Lewis team as a sparring partner in 94 when in the UK to fight Julius Francis, word is from guys who was there that Ruiz dropped Lewis the first day they sparred and that Lewis could not handle the "Grappling-Hook" style of Ruiz, the Lewis camp got rid of his services the next day.... Ruiz fought his way to be the WBA No1 contender over the next 4yrs but Lewis kept him waiting 18 months as No1 contender then dumped the belt rather than face the man he knew he could not handle... Ruiz fought Holyfield for the title and put Holyfield on the canvas, something Lewis never came near to doing.... clear Duck.

Byrd - Byrd was No1 contender for 12 months and Lewis dumped the belt on the advice of Manny Stewart & Don King.. Byrd easily beat Holyfield for the vacant title beating him far easier than Lewis had, Byrd then beat David Tua far easier than Lewis had... clear Duck.

Bowe - Bowe offered Lewis a fight in 93 with a 75/25 split with Bowe being undisputed champ, Lewis ddeliberately "priced himself out" by demanding a 50/50 purse split and options on Bowes next 5 fights should Lewis lose...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Bowe offered Lewis $10 million in 95 but Lewis turned it down saying he was concentrating on regaining the WBC title ..... clear Duck both times and a link as proof.

Witherspoon - Tim was highly rated in 94-96 and shouting for a fight with Lewis who wanted nothing to do with `Terrible Tim` Lewis fought Butler, Fortune & Morrison instead.... clear Duck.

Sanders - Cory fought in London on the McCall vs Lewis undercard, gunning for a fight with Lewis, when Lewis lost to McCall, Sanders kept up the pressure on Lewis from 94 - 2000 running up a 13 fight win streak and being highly ranked by all governing bodies, Lewis wanted no-part of the 6ft`5in power-punching southpaw... clear Duck

Now whichever way you want to look at it, for you to claim the likes of Mavrovic, Fortune, Jackson, Grant, Akinwande, Botha, Morrison & Jackson as anything other than Class C opponents when all those Class A contenders was available for Lewis to fight.. then you are kidding yourself.

sonnyboyx2
03-20-2010, 05:33 PM
Bowe:
I have posted this on another thread and I going to assume you missed it so I will post it again.

Bowe was not Holyfield's WBC mandatory, Razor Ruddock was, which means that Evander was under no obligation to fight him or offer him a fair deal.

After winning the court case so that he was free to defend his belt against Bowe, the WBC had an elimination bout to decide who would be the no 1 wbc mandatory between Lewis and Ruddock, Lewis won

Lewis was Bowe's WBC mandatory, so he had to cut Lewis a more fair deal like ,60/40.

After beating Holyfield Bowe fought a washed up Dokes and a washed up Ferguson, so I think we can safely say he wasnt looking for tough fights. And as you can see after beating Holyfield he didnt want to train anymore, which is why Futch eventually left him.

Holyfield:
Lewis wanted to fight Holyfield but he lost to Bowe, he finally did get his shot and we all know what happened there.

Tyson:
Tyson paid Lewis step aside money if I remember correctly, Tyson only wanted to fight easy fights as well which is why he fought Holyfield and look how that played out.

Byrd:
Lewis couldnt motivate himself to fight someone like Byrd, so he vacated the IBF belt. You dont really believe that Byrd would of beat Lewis do you? Lewis was at least as good as the K bros and they both gave Byrd fits.


If Lewis was the real reason for the Bowe Lewis fight not happening dont you think it would of made more sense for the WBC to simply drop Lewis from the mandatory spot, rather than strip Bowe?

This is all imaginary drivel you are spewing out...
Holyfield was the undisputed Heavyweight champion, Bowe was WBA No1 contender by hammering Pierre Coetzer in a final Eliminator so guaranteeing him a title fight with Holyfield... Ruddock fought Lewis in a WBC final Eliminator .... THERE WAS NO GOING TO COURT BY HOLYFIELD LIKE YOU ARE TRYING TO CLAIM....Holyfield could not fight Ruddock because Ruddock was scheduled to fight Lewis over in London, so Holyfield fought his WBA No1 contender Riddick Bowe and lost...you are making things up as you go along mate...

Why would Bowe have to cut Lewis a fair deal just because he was his mandatory... Holyfield only paid Bowe 75/25 and Bowe accepted because he felt he could beat Holyfield.... Lewis deliberatly "Priced himself out" because he did not fancy his chances against Bowe

Bowe fought Dokes because Dokes was the ex champion and on a 12 fight win streak but because Bowe butchered him you are claiming he was washed-up... Ferguson beat Ray Mercer who was the WBA No1 contender to get his shot at Bowe.. Ferguson beat Mercer far easier than Lewis did in 95... Bowe then lost his title in a $30 million rematch with Holyfield when the infamous "Fan-Man" landed in the ring... by that time Lewis had lost his Garbage-Can belt to McCall so Riddick Bowe offered Lewis $10 million and Lewis turned the fight down....

Tell me a heavyweight fighter today who can make $10 million in a non title fight?.... $10 million 15yrs ago was a huge amount of money and by Lewis turning that fight down it shows he never wanted to ever fight Riddick Bowe
here is proof on this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

phallus
03-20-2010, 05:36 PM
frazier has the better wins, beating a just past prime ALI when joe was also just past his prime and had been blind in one eye since 1964. the shot, blind frazier almost stopped ali the last time they fought, i'm sure ali would have been knocked out in that last round, frazier was ready to die in the ring if he had to. lennox lewis never had that kind of heart, he even ducked chris byrd. wins over a medicated tyson and shot holyfield aren't as good as smokin joe's best wins

General Zod
03-20-2010, 05:56 PM
This is all imaginary drivel you are spewing out...
Holyfield was the undisputed Heavyweight champion, Bowe was WBA No1 contender by hammering Pierre Coetzer in a final Eliminator so guaranteeing him a title fight with Holyfield... Ruddock fought Lewis in a WBC final Eliminator .... THERE WAS NO GOING TO COURT BY HOLYFIELD LIKE YOU ARE TRYING TO CLAIM....Holyfield could not fight Ruddock because Ruddock was scheduled to fight Lewis over in London, so Holyfield fought his WBA No1 contender Riddick Bowe and lost...you are making things up as you go along mate...

"While he was incarcerated, the WBC ordered a title eliminator between No. 1 ranked Razor Ruddock and No. 2 ranked Riddick Bowe, which was accepted by both in writing. After making such commitment, Bowe decided to pull out of the agreement and instead fight Pierre Coetzer of South Africa. The WBC then ordered the eliminator to be between Ruddock and No. 3 ranked Lennox Lewis, with the winner to be the official challenger for the world championship; Lewis won the fight. Main Events, who had the promotional rights to Holyfield, informed the WBC that Holyfield would not fight Lewis because he did not have a marketable name, but would fight Bowe instead. The Holyfield vs Bowe fight was authorized by the WBC with the condition that the winner fight Lewis. Bowe won the title, but instead of honoring his written agreement to fight Lewis, he refused to pay the WBC sanctioning fee and threw the championship belt into a London waste basket.
http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/wbc10-7.htm

I havent got the time right now, but when i do ill dismantle your entire post

General Zod
03-20-2010, 06:01 PM
Eliminator .... THERE WAS NO GOING TO COURT BY HOLYFIELD LIKE YOU ARE TRYING TO CLAIM....Holyfield could not fight Ruddock because Ruddock was scheduled to fight Lewis over in London, so Holyfield fought his WBA No1 contender Riddick Bowe and lost...you are making things up as you go along mate

In 1992, the WBC threatened to strip Evander Holyfield of his title for defending it against Riddick Bowe instead of Razor Ruddock. Holyfield obtained a court order to stop the organization. In a taped deposition for the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, Holyfield stated that the WBC wanted him to defend his championship against Ruddock because Ruddock was managed by Don King
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Boxing_Council#cite_note-3

They threatened to strip Evander Holyfield of his title because he defended it against Riddick Bowe instead of King promoted Razor Ruddock.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/346325-47-years-of-rotten-boxing-decisions-and-the-wbc-is-still-going-strong

If Bowe won and then failed to meet the council's conditions, the W.B.C. would install the Lewis-Ruddock winner as its champion. "The W.B.C. will recognize the winner of the Oct. 31 fight as the W.B.C. champion of the world if the winner on Nov. 13 doesn't fight him," Sulaiman said.

Sulaiman said that both Holyfield and Bowe had agreed in writing to defend the crown against the Lewis-Ruddock winner, but that Bowe was having second thoughts. Americans Holyfield and Bowe fight for the world title at the Mirage in Las Vegas, Nev., on Nov. 13.
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/28/sports/sports-people-boxing-bowe-may-win-but-may-not-be-champ.html?pagewanted=1
Bowe was having second thoughts about fighting the winner of Lewis Bowe, before he even fought Holyfield.

Snopkins
03-20-2010, 07:44 PM
frazier has the better wins, beating a just past prime ALI when joe was also just past his prime and had been blind in one eye since 1964. the shot, blind frazier almost stopped ali the last time they fought, i'm sure ali would have been knocked out in that last round, frazier was ready to die in the ring if he had to. lennox lewis never had that kind of heart, he even ducked chris byrd. wins over a medicated tyson and shot holyfield aren't as good as smokin joe's best wins



frazier was at his peak against Ali the first time they fought.You won't hear anyone else stupid enough to dispute this.


frazier was not blind and he quit in manila rather than go out on his shield.Qutting to avoid getting knocked out by his feather fisted superior is something Lennox Lewis never did.


You discredit Lewis's best wins and yet frazier's two best wins are over rusty heavyweights(one of which decisively beat him twice)who he caught coming off of a long layoff.


I won't even other listing all the ducks frazier made throughout his career.

cotto16
03-20-2010, 07:47 PM
frazier was at his peak against Ali the first time they fought.You won't hear anyone else stupid enough to dispute this.


frazier was not blind and he quit in manila rather than go out on his shield.Qutting to avoid getting knocked out by his feather fisted superior is something Lennox Lewis never did.


You discredit Lewis's best wins and yet frazier's two best wins are over rusty heavyweights(one of which decisively beat him twice)who he caught coming off of a long layoff.


I won't even other listing all the ducks frazier made throughout his career.

Frazier was blind in one eye. And Frazier didn't quit, Eddie Futch pulled him out.

CarlosG815
03-20-2010, 07:52 PM
I won't even other listing all the ducks frazier made throughout his career.

Because you CAN'T.

Snopkins
03-20-2010, 08:09 PM
Frazier was blind in one eye. And Frazier didn't quit, Eddie Futch pulled him out.



No he wasn't.Eddie futch took the fall for frazier.It would have ruined frazier's reputation and legacy to learn that he quit rather than live up to the false "warrior" tag that had been placed upon him.




Because you CAN'T.



Leotis Martin,Mac foster,Earnie Shavers,Ron Lyle and even a washed up Sonny Liston.



All punchers strangely enough.

Ziggy Stardust
03-20-2010, 08:13 PM
No he wasn't.Eddie futch took the fall for frazier.It would have ruined frazier's reputation and legacy to learn that he quit rather than live up to the false "warrior" tag that had been placed upon him.

Leotis Martin,Mac foster,Earnie Shavers,Ron Lyle and even a washed up Sonny Liston.

All punchers strangely enough.

Isn't your anus tired? Afterall you do all your talking out of it :tool:

Poet

T3dBundy
03-20-2010, 08:16 PM
Leotis Martin

to be fair, leotis martin had to end his career after the liston fight, his eye was demolished after the fight, even when he won.

fight_professor
03-20-2010, 09:53 PM
Frazier was blind in one eye. And Frazier didn't quit, Eddie Futch pulled him out.

Yeah but he was way behind by r14. Ali was beating him into a bloody mess. The scorecards had him way behind and he was in no position to get a KO win.

As for Ali being featherfisted [not your comment, I am addressing both in one post], he has KO wins over ATG such as Liston and Foreman. He sparked a good percentage of his opponents.

Forza
03-20-2010, 10:11 PM
smokin joe by far

-beat a prime ali, then gave him a close decision in the 2nd fight.
-dominated a HW division that had 10 times more talent than when lewis was fighting.

fight_professor
03-21-2010, 02:27 AM
3 fight.

2nd fight Ali won handsomely.

sonnyboyx2
03-21-2010, 06:31 AM
3 fight.

2nd fight Ali won handsomely.

2nd fight was very close call

sonnyboyx2
03-21-2010, 06:38 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Boxing_Council#cite_note-3


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/346325-47-years-of-rotten-boxing-decisions-and-the-wbc-is-still-going-strong


http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/28/sports/sports-people-boxing-bowe-may-win-but-may-not-be-champ.html?pagewanted=1
Bowe was having second thoughts about fighting the winner of Lewis Bowe, before he even fought Holufiled, lol

Holyfield was undisputed champion, he had every right to defend against the WBA No1 contender... his court case was to stop the WBC from stripping him of their belt and fragmenting the undisputed title... Holyfield would have had to wait 6 months before he could have defended against Ruddock as Ruddock had signed to fight Lewis in London.. the fight with Lewis was changed to a "Final Eliminator" only days before the fight... after Bowe beat Holyfield and Lewis priced himself out of meeting Bowe because he knew that Bowe would be stripped of the WBC belt so Bowe said to the WBC & Lewis "Up You Two" and dumped the belt... Lewis picked the belt out of the trash can and masqueraded as a champion for 18 months unto McCall Poleaxed him.. The Bowe camp then offered Lewis a career highest purse of $10 million which Lewis turned down.... There was only one guy who was ducking here!

Emon723
03-21-2010, 10:25 AM
More accomplished, I'd go with Frazier, Lewis has a missing piece when he never get a chance to beat Riddick Bowe, and Frazier gave Ali his toughest fights in their trilogies, Also Smokin Joe being knockout by George Foreman twice (KO by 2 and 5) has by far faced a bigger puncher then Lewis being stopped by McCall and Rahman (KO2 and KO5)

General Zod
03-21-2010, 11:24 AM
Roy Jones - Lewis turned down the largest purse in pro sports history a staggering $35 million + PPV saying he had nothing to prove by fighting an ex middleweight which is a clear Duck.

Murad Muhammad, Jones's promoter:
"We shocked the boxing world when we took on and defeated John Ruiz. We shocked them again when we announced that we wanted the three musketeers. Mike Tyson was first, but he was not ready. It's not that he does not want to fight him, he's just not ready yet. We then tried to get Evander Holyfield, 'The Real Deal' but he would not make a deal, and he decided to fight James Toney in a fight that he's finished if he loses. And if he wins, then he's a possibility for next year. Then came Lennox Lewis, we offered him $25,000,000 to fight us, and when he realized it was real, he wanted to get rid of his mandatory (Klitschko) to fight Roy Jones Jr,, but after he put on that poor performance. he doesn't know if he should retire or fight Klitschko again, so Roy was left out in the cold.

Another article further down:
Still, negotiations have commenced. Lewis` camp insists the big man seeks at least one more major fight before retirement. If so, here`s a wrinkle: Jones wants the bigger purse. He`s hinted at $100 million. "These guys are different animals," said Jones, who earned more than $10 million for fighting Ruiz. "That`s why I got to be paid three times the money in order to do it. It`s stupid. Why would I go in there and not make a major, major payday? One lick could be the end of me. One lick from me ain`t going to end their career."
http://www.aussiebox.com.au/jones.html

Hide - undefeated Hide repeatedly called out Lewis on British television after every defence of his WBO title, Hide vs Lewis was a huge money fight in the Uk.. Lewis wanted no part of it even when he lost his beloved WBC title.. clear case of Ducking an opponent
Herbie Hide beat Bent to get the WBO title and lost it in his next defence to Bowe. Hide was never a big name in the UK, where I also live, he also has never beat anyone worth mentioning at hw

Tyson 1996 - Lewis had no need to accept step-a-side money, he could have easily said no and forced Tyson to fight him.. Tyson`s goal was to unify the title and become undisputed so your claim that Tyson would have dropped the belt is false.
Holyfield didnt even have a belt, when Tyson agreed to fight him he was also 2-2 in his last 4 fights and considered a fighter on the slide at the time
When Holyfield and Tyson signed to fight there was no demand for the fight because Holyfield was considered finished at the time. In fact Evander had to get medical clearance from the Mayo clinic before the fight could be sanctioned by the Nevada Athletic Commission because the prevailing thought was Tyson wouldn't just beat Holyfield, but might possibly injure him
http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/7287/mike-tyson-tells-oprah-why-bit-evander-holyfield/
Tyson wanted nothing to do with Lewis so he could fight a shot Holyfield, who team Tyson fought was going to be easy pickings.

Moorer was often interviewed and said he wanted to fight Lewis.. Lewis wanted no part of the crafty southpaw.
Teddy Atlas in his autobiography states that he wanted Moorer to have nothing to do with Lewis because he saw him as a high risk opponent
All you have to do is look at Moorer performance in the Holyfield I fight to see that he was never going to be a good hw champion.

Ruiz - Ruiz had been hired by the Lewis team as a sparring partner in 94 when in the UK to fight Julius Francis, word is from guys who was there that Ruiz dropped Lewis the first day they sparred and that Lewis could not handle the "Grappling-Hook" style of Ruiz, the Lewis camp got rid of his services the next day
Ruiz wouldnt start hitting and holding until after he got blasted out by Tua in 20 seconds 2 years later in 96. You are also going to have to do better then: "word is from guys who were there," as well and quote a source

.... Ruiz fought his way to be the WBA No1 contender over the next 4yrs but Lewis kept him waiting 18 months as No1 contender then dumped the belt rather than face the man he knew he could not handle... Ruiz fought Holyfield for the title and put Holyfield on the canvas, something Lewis never came near to doing.... clear Duck.
Ruiz worked his way up the rankings by fighting nobodies, he also went 1-1-1 with Holyfield nothing really to brag about. And I thought Holyfield should of got the nod in their last fight as well. The fact that he put Holyfield on the floor is neither here nor there, Holyfield has been dropped by: Bowe*2, Cooper and Toney

Byrd - Byrd was No1 contender for 12 months and Lewis dumped the belt on the advice of Manny Stewart & Don King.. Byrd easily beat Holyfield for the vacant title beating him far easier than Lewis had, Byrd then beat David Tua far easier than Lewis had... clear Duck.
Why would Lewis care what King wanted he avoided having anything to do with him for most of his career.Styles make fights the fact that Byrd beat Holyfield more convincing means nothing or are you trying to use triangular theory here? Th rest of this I have already answered in another post, you should go and read the Lennox Lewis bio called Mamas boy

Bowe - Bowe offered Lewis a fight in 93 with a 75/25 split with Bowe being undisputed champ, Lewis ddeliberately "priced himself out" by demanding a 50/50 purse split and options on Bowes next 5 fights should Lewis lose

It was the other way around, how could a mandatory challenger make such demands? Also if Lewis was to blame then why didnt the WBC simply drop him from their rankings instead of stripping Bowe?

Bowe offered Lewis $10 million in 95 but Lewis turned it down saying he was concentrating on regaining the WBC title ..... clear Duck both times and a link as proof.
We should believe something, because Bowe has said it? Also do you have a sourse for any of this stuff?

Witherspoon - Tim was highly rated in 94-96 and shouting for a fight with Lewis who wanted nothing to do with `Terrible Tim` Lewis fought Butler, Fortune & Morrison instead.... clear Duck.
Link?

Sanders - Cory fought in London on the McCall vs Lewis undercard, gunning for a fight with Lewis, when Lewis lost to McCall, Sanders kept up the pressure on Lewis from 94 - 2000 running up a 13 fight win streak and being highly ranked by all governing bodies, Lewis wanted no-part of the 6ft`5in power-punching southpaw... clear Duck
Link?

Now whichever way you want to look at it, for you to claim the likes of Mavrovic, Fortune, Jackson, Grant, Akinwande, Botha, Morrison & Jackson as anything other than Class C opponents when all those Class A contenders was available for Lewis to fight.. [then you are kidding yourself.
I think you are kidding yourself with this stuff.

General Zod
03-21-2010, 11:34 AM
This is all imaginary drivel you are spewing out...
Holyfield was the undisputed Heavyweight champion, Bowe was WBA No1 contender by hammering Pierre Coetzer in a final Eliminator so guaranteeing him a title fight with Holyfield... Ruddock fought Lewis in a WBC final Eliminator .... THERE WAS NO GOING TO COURT BY HOLYFIELD LIKE YOU ARE TRYING TO CLAIM
Holyfield was undisputed champion, he had every right to defend against the WBA No1 contender... his court case was to stop the WBC from stripping him of their belt and fragmenting the undisputed title..
I like how you changed your story there.


Holyfield would have had to wait 6 months before he could have defended against Ruddock as Ruddock had signed to fight Lewis in London.. the fight with Lewis was changed to a "Final Eliminator" only days before the fight... after Bowe beat Holyfield

Show me one article to back this version of events up.

and Lewis priced himself out of meeting Bowe because he knew that Bowe would be stripped of the WBC belt so Bowe said to the WBC & Lewis "Up You Two" and dumped the belt.!
That make no sense as I have pointed out before in a earlier post, tell me one high risk opponent Bowe has ever fought?

fight_professor
03-21-2010, 11:57 AM
2nd fight was very close call

No, it wasnt. I've seen every second of all 3 fights and Ali beat that ass in the 2nd.

Judges scored it 8-4, 7-4-1, 6-5-1 all to Ali.

That means 2 judges saw it as a whooping.

General Zod
03-21-2010, 12:28 PM
No, it wasnt. I've seen every second of all 3 fights and Ali beat that ass in the 2nd.

Judges scored it 8-4, 7-4-1, 6-5-1 all to Ali.

That means 2 judges saw it as a whooping.
Ali clinched a total of 133 times in that fight, Futch pleaded with the ref to stop the holding but Perez(ref) turned a blind eye to it.

razzledaz 38
03-21-2010, 01:09 PM
frazier put his heart and soul into every fight..can,t say the same about lewis

CarlosG815
03-21-2010, 02:35 PM
No, it wasnt. I've seen every second of all 3 fights and Ali beat that ass in the 2nd.

Judges scored it 8-4, 7-4-1, 6-5-1 all to Ali.

That means 2 judges saw it as a whooping.

Watch it again, Cap, could have gone either way.

Snopkins
03-21-2010, 03:36 PM
Watch it again, Cap, could have gone either way.



While you encourage others to "watch it again",why don't you try actually watching it for the first time?



frazier put his heart and soul into every fight..can,t say the same about lewis


He certainly put his "heart and soul" into ducking virtually every puncher of his generation.



No, it wasnt. I've seen every second of all 3 fights and Ali beat that ass in the 2nd.

Judges scored it 8-4, 7-4-1, 6-5-1 all to Ali.

That means 2 judges saw it as a whooping.



He didn't "beat that ass" nor did he attempt to.Ali simply outboxed him in everyway.


frazier made Ali wait three years until he was sure Ali was washed up to rematch him.He did all he could to avoid Ali while his feather fisted superior was fighting on a regular basis against the top contenders frazier was avoiding.

sonnyboyx2
03-21-2010, 03:43 PM
Murad Muhammad, Jones's promoter:


Another article further down:

http://www.aussiebox.com.au/jones.html

Herbie Hide beat Bent to get the WBO title and lost it in his next defence to Bowe. Hide was never a big name in the UK, where I also live, he also has never beat anyone worth mentioning at hw

Holyfield didnt even have a belt, when Tyson agreed to fight him he was also 2-2 in his last 4 fights and considered a fighter on the slide at the time

http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/7287/mike-tyson-tells-oprah-why-bit-evander-holyfield/
Tyson wanted nothing to do with Lewis so he could fight a shot Holyfield, who team Tyson fought was going to be easy pickings.

Teddy Atlas in his autobiography states that he wanted Moorer to have nothing to do with Lewis because he saw him as a high risk opponent
All you have to do is look at Moorer performance in the Holyfield I fight to see that he was never going to be a good hw champion.

Ruiz wouldnt start hitting and holding until after he got blasted out by Tua in 20 seconds 2 years later in 96. You are also going to have to do better then: "word is from guys who were there," as well and quote a source

Ruiz worked his way up the rankings by fighting nobodies, he also went 1-1-1 with Holyfield nothing really to brag about. And I thought Holyfield should of got the nod in their last fight as well. The fact that he put Holyfield on the floor is neither here nor there, Holyfield has been dropped by: Bowe*2, Cooper and Toney

Why would Lewis care what King wanted he avoided having anything to do with him for most of his career.Styles make fights the fact that Byrd beat Holyfield more convincing means nothing or are you trying to use triangular theory here? Th rest of this I have already answered in another post, you should go and read the Lennox Lewis bio called Mamas boy

It was the other way around, how could a mandatory challenger make such demands? Also if Lewis was to blame then why didnt the WBC simply drop him from their rankings instead of stripping Bowe?

We should believe something, because Bowe has said it? Also do you have a sourse for any of this stuff?

Link?

Link?

I think you are kidding yourself with this stuff.

Hide was a 2 time WBO champion and his fights was shown `live on UK TV.. Hide repeatedly called out Lewis as did the British press..

Tyson vs Holyfield was a $30 million payday for Tyson.. No-one gave Lewis a chance of lasting one round against Tyson, Lewis had not even lasted 2rds against one of Tyson`s sparring partners in McCall... Holyfield was the bigger fight yet you are twisting it into claiming Tyson was `afraid`

Ruiz was a novice when caught with the first punch of the fight by Tua...he fought his way to be No1 contender over the next 4yrs... The source for the sparring is the Boxing News weekly magazine.

David Tua wanted no rematch with Ruiz in 2000

you say in your opinion Holyfield should have got the nod in their 3rd fight.. just like IMO Holyfield was a clear winner in his 2nd fight with Lewis as well as the opinion of most ringside observers.

Lewis dumped the belt rather than fight Chris Byrd on the advice of King...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heavyweight_boxing_champions

It was Lewis not Bowe who made the demands and priced himself out of it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Lewis turned down an offer to fight Bowe in

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-05-14/sports/1993134195_1_lewis-newman-dan-duva

Why not believe what Bowe is saying.. is he known for telling lies?... or is Lewis known for telling lies like when he told the boxing world he would fight Vitali in a rematch yet dragged it out for 12 months+ then announced he was quitting.

The Link for Cory Sanders is in the Lewis vs McCall fight program

Ziggy Stardust
03-21-2010, 03:48 PM
The level of ignorance and stupity I'm seeing from a number of posters on both sides of this argument makes me seriously fear for the survival of the species :puke:

Poet

them_apples
03-21-2010, 03:52 PM
Lewis has a lot of good wins but no great wins.

Frazier doesn't have as many good wins, but he does have a great win. Ali Frazier 1.

sonnyboyx2
03-21-2010, 04:01 PM
I like how you changed your story there.


Show me one article to back this version of events up.

That make no sense as I have pointed out before in a earlier post, tell me one high risk opponent Bowe has ever fought?
ive not changed my story.. you claimed Holyfield went to court to get himself out of fighting Ruddock so that he could fight Bowe.. i said that never happened, Holyfield went to court to stop his undisputed title being fragmented...

Holyfield would have had to wait 6 months to fight Ruddock because Ruddock was committed to fighting Lewis in Oct 92 and by the time he had fought Bowe who was the WBA No1 contender it would have been 6 months before he could have faced Ruddock... you go by WBC only, not the other governing bodies rules or the undisputed champions wishes... Lennox Lewis avoided more No1 contenders than any Heavyweight Champion in history..

High risk opponents Riddick Bowe fought - Tony Tubbs 29-2, Bruce Seldon 18-1, Pierre Coetze 39-2, Evander Holyfield 28-0 (Trilogy).. Herbie Hide 26-0, Larry Donald 16-0, Jorge Louis Gonzalez 23-0, Andrew Golota 28-0 a combined record of 263-6

show me the high risk opponents Lewis fought?

Ziggy Stardust
03-21-2010, 04:07 PM
ive not changed my story.. you claimed Holyfield went to court to get himself out of fighting Ruddock so that he could fight Bowe.. i said that never happened, Holyfield went to court to stop his undisputed title being fragmented...

Holyfield would have had to wait 6 months to fight Ruddock because Ruddock was committed to fighting Lewis in Oct 92 and by the time he had fought Bowe who was the WBA No1 contender it would have been 6 months before he could have faced Ruddock... you go by WBC only, not the other governing bodies rules or the undisputed champions wishes... Lennox Lewis avoided more No1 contenders than any Heavyweight Champion in history..

High risk opponents Riddick Bowe fought - Tony Tubbs 29-2, Bruce Seldon 18-1, Pierre Coetze 39-2, Evander Holyfield 28-0 (Trilogy).. Herbie Hide 26-0, Larry Donald 16-0, Jorge Louis Gonzalez 23-0, Andrew Golota 28-0 a combined record of 263-6

show me the high risk opponents Lewis fought?

I'm sorry but Tony Tubbs, Bruce Seldon, Pierre Coetze, Herbie Hide, Larry Donald, and Jorge Louis Gonzalez were about as high-risk as fighting Betty Boop.

Poet

sonnyboyx2
03-21-2010, 04:20 PM
I'm sorry but Tony Tubbs, Bruce Seldon, Pierre Coetze, Herbie Hide, Larry Donald, and Jorge Louis Gonzalez were about as high-risk as fighting Betty Boop.

Poet

Tubbs, Seldon & Hide all held world titles.. Coetzer was a big tough, rugged guy, Larry Donald was a runner and undefeated, Gonzalez held wins over both Bowe & Lewis in the amateurs and was undefeated - and all was contenders... yet Bowe looked spectacular against them all with the exception of Tubbs who was a very underated boxer

Ziggy Stardust
03-21-2010, 04:25 PM
Tubbs, Seldon & Hide all held world titles.. Coetzer was a big tough, rugged guy, Larry Donald was a runner and undefeated, Gonzalez held wins over both Bowe & Lewis in the amateurs and was undefeated - and all was contenders... yet Bowe looked spectacular against them all with the exception of Tubbs who was a very underated boxer

So did Trevor Berbick. In an age when belts are handed out like side-show trinkets having one at one time says nothing about how dangerous a fighter is.

Poet

sonnyboyx2
03-21-2010, 04:44 PM
So did Trevor Berbick. In an age when belts are handed out like side-show trinkets having one at one time says nothing about how dangerous a fighter is.

Poet

you are underestimating Trevor Berbick - Berbick took a `Peak Larry Holmes the full 15rds.. He KOd Big John Tate who was a good fighter.. Berbick took the title off a peak Pink Thomas, beat Greg Page, Mitch Green & David Bey, even at aged 42yrs he went the distance with Hasim Rahman... Boxing fans remember Berbick for getting blasted by Mike Tyson and remember Michael Spinks just the same, when the truth is that is not the case, Berbick was a rough, tough guy, not skillful but rough & tough.... would Hasim Rahman have beaten a 28yrs old Berbick?

Ziggy Stardust
03-21-2010, 04:55 PM
you are underestimating Trevor Berbick - Berbick took a `Peak Larry Holmes the full 15rds.. He KOd Big John Tate who was a good fighter.. Berbick took the title off a peak Pink Thomas, beat Greg Page, Mitch Green & David Bey, even at aged 42yrs he went the distance with Hasim Rahman... Boxing fans remember Berbick for getting blasted by Mike Tyson and remember Michael Spinks just the same, when the truth is that is not the case, Berbick was a rough, tough guy, not skillful but rough & tough.... would Hasim Rahman have beaten a 28yrs old Berbick?

I remember Berbick's ENTIRE career and he was the worst fighter ever to hold a version of the Heavyweight crown. And yes, Rahman would have beaten him. Berbick beat a coked out Thomas, an obese Page, and Green and Bey where journeymen AT BEST.

Poet

sonnyboyx2
03-21-2010, 05:13 PM
I remember Berbick's ENTIRE career and he was the worst fighter ever to hold a version of the Heavyweight crown. And yes, Rahman would have beaten him. Berbick beat a coked out Thomas, an obese Page, and Green and Bey where journeymen AT BEST.

Poet

Hasim Rahman is the worst champion in history..i suggest you watch Holmes vs Bey

Ziggy Stardust
03-21-2010, 05:16 PM
Hasim Rahman is the worst champion in history..i suggest you watch Holmes vs Bey

The Bey fight was where sports writers started to talk about Larry being on the slide.

Poet

General Zod
03-21-2010, 06:25 PM
Hide was a 2 time WBO champion and his fights was shown `live on UK TV.. Hide repeatedly called out Lewis as did the British press..
Please tell me Herbie Hides three best wins at HW? He got wiped out by Bowe and later on Vitali K. Why dont you post a link to an article about it?

Tyson vs Holyfield was a $30 million payday for Tyson.. No-one gave Lewis a chance of lasting one round against Tyson, Lewis had not even lasted 2rds against one of Tyson`s sparring partners in McCall... Holyfield was the bigger fight yet you are twisting it into claiming Tyson was `afraid`
Holyfield was considered shot at the time, he looked terrible in the Bobby Cryz fight, he also had no belts. The Holyfield fight was about Tyson fighting another easy opponent. Why are you bringing up the McCall fight? In what way does that effect anything here? Please tell me one serious opponent Tyson fought after he left prison, who was not a paper champ or considered shot like Holyfield was?

Ruiz was a novice when caught with the first punch of the fight by Tua...he fought his way to be No1 contender over the next 4yrs... The source for the sparring is the Boxing News weekly magazine.
It doesnt matter if he was a novice or not he didnt start trying to hook and hold until after that fight which puts your original post out by 2 years.

You are going to have to be more specific with the source so I can try to look it up as well

David Tua wanted no rematch with Ruiz in 2000
Irrelevant to the discussion

you say in your opinion Holyfield should have got the nod in their 3rd fight.. just like IMO Holyfield was a clear winner in his 2nd fight with Lewis as well as the opinion of most ringside observers.
Irrelevant who cares it is a side issue at best

Lewis dumped the belt rather than fight Chris Byrd on the advice of King...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heavyweight_boxing_champions
Lewis relinquished the IBF title upon receiving payment of $1 million (US) by promoter Don King,
from your link he was paid 1m to give it up, not the same as on advice from king

It was Lewis not Bowe who made the demands and priced himself out of it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo
Dont you have anything other than a vid from Bowe? How about a article from a more neutral source?

Lewis turned down an offer to fight Bowe in
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-05-14/sports/1993134195_1_lewis-newman-dan-duva
If you notice that article does not ask Lewis what he reasons were, so you are judging him on the word of Newman alone. Hardly objective. Why should Lewis of fought him at that stage after the way Bowe ducked him when the fight was originally to be made?

Why not believe what Bowe is saying.. is he known for telling lies?.
Wasnt Bowe defence for kidnapping his wife and kids that he had brain damage? And now he is fighting claiming he has no damage? Didnt he also pull out of a fight with Ruddock claiming to be "sick", then went on to fight that South African guy instead?

.. or is Lewis known for telling lies like when he told the boxing world he would fight Vitali in a rematch yet dragged it out for 12 months+ then announced he was quitting.
Lewis lying about Vitali means that Bowe told the truth years prior and that logic makes sense to you?

The Link for Cory Sanders is in the Lewis vs McCall fight program
Who has Cory Saunders beat? Who are his three best wins? he was a nobody back then as well

CarlosG815
03-21-2010, 07:12 PM
While you encourage others to "watch it again",why don't you try actually watching it for the first time?


:haha: I've seen every Frazier fight that I've had available to me and close to all film related to him. Before you assume I haven't watched it, why don't you watch it because it's clear you've never seen it, or once again you're the only person in the world to claim Frazier got his ass beat. It was a draw if anything and could have been given to either fighter.

I'm not saying it was a gift but Frazier could have gotten the decision just as easily and there would be no controversy.

BennyST
03-21-2010, 08:56 PM
Frazier lost twice to Ali & twice to Foreman.. he very nearly beat Muhammad Ali 3-0.. Foreman was a `Monster the likes of which we have never seen since`.. Frazier beat some great fighters during his reign in : Bonavena (twice), Quarry (twice), Ellis, Chuvalo, Mathis, Bugner, Mathis, Foster, Machen and many more.

Lewis fought a bunch of has-beens who was all on the slide and at the tail-end of their careers, along with a couple of over-hyped bums like Grant, Mavrovic, Botha, Butler, Fortune, Ruddock (damaged goods), Tucker (junkie), Tua, Bruno, Akinwande, Morrison (HIV), Jackson.. Lewis got poleaxed by Rahman & McCall two journeymen, The referee could have counted to 100 without Lewis beating the count..

Frazier was floored 6 times in 2rds by the Monsterous Foreman before being stopped on his feet, which showed the toughness and ability to take punches from the sports hardest ever puncher..

Rahman & McCall never again in their careers did they poleaxe an opponent in the way that Lewis went down, which is a clear sign that it was not the power of their punch but the weak whiskers of Lennox Lewis... Lewis always avoided big punchers his whole career in guys like, Whitherspoon, Bonecrusher, Sanders, Wlad Klitschko, Hide, Cooper, Bowe, Tyson (in 96)..

Smokin Joe Frazier is rated in the Top 10 of every Boxing historian & commentator who ever compiled a list.. Lennox Lewis barely makes anyones Top 20

He was up before ten both times. Out of it, but up.

Jim Jeffries
03-21-2010, 09:45 PM
He was up before ten both times. Out of it, but up.

I don't know, it looks to me like Lewis is still on all fours at 10.

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But yeah, his description that they could've counted to a 100 is incorrect, he was on the verge of getting up. In the McCall fight, he beat the count with a couple seconds to spare, but like you said, was finished.

Snopkins
03-22-2010, 05:41 AM
:haha: I've seen every Frazier fight that I've had available to me and close to all film related to him. Before you assume I haven't watched it, why don't you watch it because it's clear you've never seen it, or once again you're the only person in the world to claim Frazier got his ass beat. It was a draw if anything and could have been given to either fighter.

I'm not saying it was a gift but Frazier could have gotten the decision just as easily and there would be no controversy.



He didn't "beat that ass" nor did he attempt to.



Are you stupid, or just blind?


Only a moron who doesn't have a clue how to score a fight would give frazier more than four rounds.I won't ask for your scorecard as you obviously have never even seen this fight.



"ole smokey" was decisively outboxed.

sonnyboyx2
03-22-2010, 07:18 AM
Please tell me Herbie Hides three best wins at HW? He got wiped out by Bowe and later on Vitali K. Why dont you post a link to an article about it?

Holyfield was considered shot at the time, he looked terrible in the Bobby Cryz fight, he also had no belts. The Holyfield fight was about Tyson fighting another easy opponent. Why are you bringing up the McCall fight? In what way does that effect anything here? Please tell me one serious opponent Tyson fought after he left prison, who was not a paper champ or considered shot like Holyfield was?

It doesnt matter if he was a novice or not he didnt start trying to hook and hold until after that fight which puts your original post out by 2 years.

You are going to have to be more specific with the source so I can try to look it up as well

Irrelevant to the discussion

Irrelevant who cares it is a side issue at best


from your link he was paid 1m to give it up, not the same as on advice from king

Dont you have anything other than a vid from Bowe? How about a article from a more neutral source?

If you notice that article does not ask Lewis what he reasons were, so you are judging him on the word of Newman alone. Hardly objective. Why should Lewis of fought him at that stage after the way Bowe ducked him when the fight was originally to be made?
.
Wasnt Bowe defence for kidnapping his wife and kids that he had brain damage? And now he is fighting claiming he has no damage? Didnt he also pull out of a fight with Ruddock claiming to be "sick", then went on to fight that South African guy instead?

Lewis lying about Vitali means that Bowe told the truth years prior and that logic makes sense to you?

Who has Cory Saunders beat? Who are his three best wins? he was a nobody back then as well

nothing to do with a fighters best wins.. Hide was WBO champion while Lewis was champion of nothing, Hide vs Lewis was a huge fight in the UK regardless of who would have won... But Lewis never fancied the task of the then undefeated Hide..

Holyfield did not look good against Czyz yet he won and was far from `Shot` like you claim.. Lewis had just been poleaxed by McCall and was thought of as nothing more than a first round `kill for Tyson... No-one wanted to see Tyson vs Lewis in 96.. Tyson vs Holyfield was a huge fight.

it doesn`t matter that Ruiz was a novice you say...what a load of rubbish... you are the biggest Lewis nuthugger i have ever came across, you twist and contort the truth around to fit your imaginary fairytale story of him.

irrelevant you say if most thought Holyfield won the rematch with Lewis... yet you post that you thought he should have got the 3rd fight with Ruiz... so its ok for you to make claims but not me .

The link i supplied you about Don King getting Lewis to avoid Byrd says:
"Lewis relinquished the IBF title upon receiving payment of $1 million (US) by promoter Don King"..Its the same thing, do you think King just gave him $1 million and said nothing?

The video from Bowe is all you or anyother person needs.. "Its straight from the horses mouth"... you will likely now claim Bowe is lying....
Show me a link from Lewis and i may believe it.

you say:......If you notice that article does not ask Lewis what he reasons were, so you are judging him on the word of Newman alone. Hardly objective. Why should Lewis of fought him at that stage after the way Bowe ducked him when the fight was originally to be made?
what a laugh.. you get funnier by the day, it was more than three times as much money as Lewis had ever fought for in his entire career, Lewis was boasting to the English press that Bowe was afraid of him.. Rock Newman made the offer `Live` on BBC Sportsnight programme which was introduced by Desmond Lynam.. Lewis turned it down, Yet you being a huge Lewis nuthugger cannot accept what i am putting infront of you, you cannot accept that it was not how you think it was...and when it is right there in front of you that Lewis was stripped of both the WBA & IBF belts for refusing to fight the No1 contenders in Ruiz & Byrd, you say, " But Lewis woulda beat both them, or who wanted to see him fight them"... The answer is every boxing fan in the USA, and with Lewis refusing, it is why Lewis is reviled and not given credit in the USA...Riddick Bowe on that video clearly tells how Lewis deliberately avoided him, yet you blindly wont accept it, even claiming the guy is "brian damaged" so is talking through a hole in his head..

Cory Sanders was chief support on the Lewis v McCall bill, so i suggest you get in touch with Frank Maloney and ask him why Sanders was the chief support on that bill because in your opinion he has beat no one..

i look forward to you supplying me with a link to prove Lewis did not avoid Bowe like Bowe claimed he did in that video..

Lennox Lewis was a British/Canadian thing, his team spewed out propaganda to the press to build up Lewis as a fighter yet they knew that he was not up too fighting the very best due to his glass chin which proved his downfall on two occasions, yet the propaganda continued even after every fight-fan in the world seen him spread-eagled on the canvas by an unknown journeyman in Hasim Rahman, they claimed, "Oceans 11, not focused, lucky punch, not acclimatized, did not train correct, etc etc" and the nuthuggers sucked it in and believe it even to this day.

you must believe there are fairies at the bottom of the garden..

Mersey
03-22-2010, 07:34 AM
Lennox acheived more. If Frazier was fighting in Lennox's era, it may be the other way round.

General Zod
03-22-2010, 11:03 AM
nothing to do with a fighters best wins.. Hide was WBO champion while Lewis was champion of nothing, Hide vs Lewis was a huge fight in the UK regardless of who would have won... But Lewis never fancied the task of the then undefeated Hide..
Early 90's
Hide beat Bentt to win the WBO belt: 1994-03-19
Hide would lose it on his 1st defence in :1995-03-11

Lewis would fight McCall and lose to McCall : 1994-09-24
He would take a year off, change trainers then face Lionel Butler in a WBC elimation bout in: 1995-05-13
late 90's
Hide would win the WBO belt after beating tucker in: 1997-06-28
he would lose it to Vitali.K in:1999-06-26

Lewis would regain the WBC belt by beating McCall in:1997-02-07
and defend it again against HOlyfield: 1999-11-13

So when was this bout viable according to you?
Also you forgot to mention this:
During the 1990s, the WBC did not allow its champions to engage in unification bouts with WBO champions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Boxing_Council


Holyfield did not look good against Czyz yet he won and was far from `Shot` like you claim.. Lewis had just been poleaxed by McCall and was thought of as nothing more than a first round `kill for Tyson... No-one wanted to see Tyson vs Lewis in 96.. Tyson vs Holyfield was a huge fight.
It doesnt matter if Lewis had been koed by McCall in 1994, he was still Tyson's mandatory and Tyson was obliged to face him. Holyfield was suffering from heart problems during the Moorer fight, which he lost, he would also look less than 100% in the Bowe fight, where he got koed. He struggled badly with Bobby Czyz who was at best a fringe contender. Going into the Tyson fight he was 2-2 in his last 4 fights, does that look to you like a fighter on the rise or on the slide?

When Holyfield and Tyson signed to fight there was no demand for the fight because Holyfield was considered finished at the time. In fact Evander had to get medical clearance from the Mayo clinic before the fight could be sanctioned by the Nevada Athletic Commission because the prevailing thought was Tyson wouldn't just beat Holyfield, but might possibly injure him. To sell the first fight many cable companies across America offered a pay per-round package for those who purchased the fight so the fans wouldn't feel ripped off if the fight only lasted a couple rounds. When the fight turned out to be one of the better heavyweight fights of the decade won by the 12-1 underdog Holyfield, the rematch was made.
http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/7287/mike-tyson-tells-oprah-why-bit-evander-holyfield/
Does this sound to you like Holyfield was considered a legit threat or a fighter on the slide?

it doesn`t matter that Ruiz was a novice you say...what a load of rubbish... you are the biggest Lewis nuthugger i have ever came across, you twist and contort the truth around to fit your imaginary fairytale story of him.
Ruiz wouldnt start his "holding and hitting style" until after he got wiped out by Tua in 1996-03-15. So how could his hook and hold style give Lewis fits in 1994 when he wouldnt start doing it until 2 years later?

The link i supplied you about Don King getting Lewis to avoid Byrd says:
"Lewis relinquished the IBF title upon receiving payment of $1 million (US) by promoter Don King"..Its the same thing, do you think King just gave him $1 million and said nothing?
No it is not.
Are these two statements equivalent to you?:
1: please vacate your belt
2: I will give you 1m if you vacate your belt.

The video from Bowe is all you or anyother person needs.. "Its straight from the horses mouth"... you will likely now claim Bowe is lying....
Show me a link from Lewis and i may believe it.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19921127&id=8G8VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fuoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6794,6164845
Rock Newman initial offer to Lewis was a 90/10 split
It was Maloney who offered Bowe a 75/25 split in Bowes favour, which Newman rejected.

Also:
A person familiar with the talks, however, said that Newman's offer was not quite what it seemed. One condition of the proposal, the person said, is that Dan Duva, Lewis's promoter, surrender his options to participate in Bowe's next three fights. Duva's share in a Bowe-Lewis fight, about $5 million, would have to come from Lewis's purse, not from Newman's.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/sports/boxing-lewis-camp-says-bring-on-10-million-offer.html?pagewanted=1

what a laugh.. you get funnier by the day, it was more than three times as much money as Lewis had ever fought for in his entire career, Lewis was boasting to the English press that Bowe was afraid of him.

That offer last February, rejected by Lewis' financial advisers, was for a reported $10 million, but came with the addendum that Lewis must first relinquish his WBC belt.

But the biggest stumbling block in reaching an agreement remains Duva, who has a three-fight option on Bowe, giving him a percentage of his pay-per-view earnings.

"I don't owe Dan Duva anything," Newman said. "I'm giving his guy [Lewis] $12 million, and they can divide it up any way they like. But he's not also going to dip into Bowe's pot at the same time. But if I were Lewis, I'd take this offer in a New York minute."
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-05-14/sports/1993134195_1_lewis-newman-dan-duva
A person familiar with the talks, however, said that Newman's offer was not quite what it seemed. One condition of the proposal, the person said, is that Dan Duva, Lewis's promoter, surrender his options to participate in Bowe's next three fights. Duva's share in a Bowe-Lewis fight, about $5 million, would have to come from Lewis's purse, not from Newman's.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/sports/boxing-lewis-camp-says-bring-on-10-million-offer.html?pagewanted=1


..and when it is right there in front of you that Lewis was stripped of both the WBA & IBF belts for refusing to fight the No1 contenders in Ruiz & Byrd, you say, " But Lewis woulda beat both them, or who wanted to see him fight them"... The answer is every boxing fan in the USA, and with Lewis refusing, it is why Lewis is reviled and not given credit in the USA...Riddick Bowe on that video clearly tells how Lewis deliberately avoided him, yet you blindly wont accept it, even claiming the guy is "brian damaged" so is talking through a hole in his head..
Three months after that, assault and battery on his wife.[13] Bowe then was convicted of kidnapping his wife and children after Bowe went to his wife's Charlotte, North Carolina home and threatened her with a knife, handcuffs, duct tape and pepper spray. He forced her and their children into a vehicle and set out for his Fort Washington, Maryland, home.[14] Bowe was initially sentenced to only 30 days as a result of a lenient sentence due to brain damage claimed by Bowe's defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddick_Bowe#Legal_Troubles
Bowe is clearly brain damaged, listen to the guy talk.

You think there was a public demand for Lewis vs Ruiz or Lewis vs Byrd? lol

Cory Sanders was chief support on the Lewis v McCall bill, so i suggest you get in touch with Frank Maloney and ask him why Sanders was the chief support on that bill because in your opinion he has beat no one..
Lewis gets wiped out in 2 rounds against McCall, gets a shot at a WBC eliminator match but he should of turned that down to fight Corrie Saunders. Why should he of done that at the time in his career according to you?

i look forward to you supplying me with a link to prove Lewis did not avoid Bowe like Bowe claimed he did in that video..
Read this newspaper article
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19921127&id=8G8VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fuoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6794,6164845

Lennox Lewis was a British/Canadian thing, his team spewed out propaganda to the press to build up Lewis as a fighter yet they knew that he was not up too fighting the very best due to his glass chin which proved his downfall on two occasions, yet the propaganda continued even after every fight-fan in the world seen him spread-eagled on the canvas by an unknown journeyman in Hasim Rahman, they claimed, "Oceans 11, not focused, lucky punch, not acclimatized, did not train correct, etc etc" and the nuthuggers sucked it in and believe it even to this day.
you must believe there are fairies at the bottom of the garden..
Dude seriously lol at this, getting wiped out twice is not equivalent to having a glass jaw. If he had such a bad jaw dont you think he would of lost more fights by ko? Dont you also think its strange that you are hating on a fighter that retired in 2003?

sonnyboyx2
03-22-2010, 11:50 AM
Early 90's
Hide beat Bentt to win the WBO belt: 1994-03-19
Hide would lose it on his 1st defence in :1995-03-11

Lewis would fight McCall and lose to McCall : 1994-09-24
He would take a year off, change trainers then face Lionel Butler in a WBC elimation bout in: 1995-05-13
late 90's
Hide would win the WBO belt after beating tucker in: 1997-06-28
he would lose it to Vitali.K in:1999-06-26

Lewis would regain the WBC belt by beating McCall in:1997-02-07
and defend it again against HOlyfield: 1999-11-13

So when was this bout viable according to you?
Also you forgot to mention this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Boxing_Council


It doesnt matter if Lewis had been koed by McCall in 1994, he was still Tyson's mandatory and Tyson was obliged to face him. Holyfield was suffering from heart problems during the Moorer fight, which he lost, he would also look less than 100% in the Bowe fight, where he got koed. He struggled badly with Bobby Czyz who was at best a fringe contender. Going into the Tyson fight he was 2-2 in his last 4 fights, does that look to you like a fighter on the rise or on the slide?


http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/7287/mike-tyson-tells-oprah-why-bit-evander-holyfield/
Does this sound to you like Holyfield was considered a legit threat or a fighter on the slide?

Ruiz wouldnt start his "holding and hitting style" until after he got wiped out by Tua in 1996-03-15. So how could his hook and hold style give Lewis fits in 1994 when he wouldnt start doing it until 2 years later?

No it is not.
Are these two statements equivalent to you?:
1: please vacate your belt
2: I will give you 1m if you vacate your belt.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19921127&id=8G8VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fuoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6794,6164845
Rock Newman initial offer to Lewis was a 90/10 split
It was Maloney who offered Bowe a 75/25 split in Bowes favour, which Newman rejected.

Also:

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/sports/boxing-lewis-camp-says-bring-on-10-million-offer.html?pagewanted=1





http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-05-14/sports/1993134195_1_lewis-newman-dan-duva

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/sports/boxing-lewis-camp-says-bring-on-10-million-offer.html?pagewanted=1



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddick_Bowe#Legal_Troubles
Bowe is clearly brain damaged, listen to the guy talk.

You think there was a public demand for Lewis vs Ruiz or Lewis vs Byrd? lol

Lewis gets wiped out in 2 rounds against McCall, gets a shot at a WBC eliminator match but he should of turned that down to fight Corrie Saunders. Why should he of done that at the time in his career according to you?

Read this newspaper article
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19921127&id=8G8VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fuoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6794,6164845

Dude seriously lol at this, getting wiped out twice is not equivalent to having a glass jaw. If he had such a bad jaw dont you think he would of lost more fights by ko? Dont you also think its strange that you are hating on a fighter that retired in 2003?

Hide offered Lewis repeated oppotunities to fight for his WBO title in late 94 to mid 95 all on BBC TV, his promoter Barry Hearns made legit offers to Lewis and all was turned down, so they went for another big fish in Riddick Bowe.

You say it dones not matter if Lewis had been KOd in 94 he was still Tysons mandatory.... just Like Ruiz, Byrd & Vitali was Lewis mandatories yet that means nothing in your eyes..

To claim Holyfield was `shot` is ridiculous.. The guy knocked **** out of Tyson and was far from what you call a shot fighter.... take a look at the PPV numbers for Tyson vs Holyfield (1) against the Lewis vs McCall (2) fight...you will realize your talking ****e.

Ruiz always had a hold & hit style, i watched him live` beat Julius Francis in Bristol 1994..

i told you Lewis vacated the title as King gave him $1 million... Lewis would have made at least $6 million for fighting Byrd.. Lewis refused to do business with King all his career, but because King could help him out of fighting Byrd, Lewis jumped at the chance.

i gave you a link on the Rock Newman offer of $12 million to fight Bowe and i will stick by that, i also seen Newman on BBC TV make the same offer... my eyes did not deceive me..

Bowe was not brain damaged during the 1990s are you saying the guy is incapable of talking?

yes i think there was a huge demand for Lewis to defend against the top contenders in Ruiz & Byrd, i dont think anyone wanted to see him duck them and fight Grant & Boths... Ruiz & Byrd would both KO Grant & Botha.

Who said anything about Lewis should have turned down McCall & fought Sanders?.... McCall was only days out of a drug rehab when he fought Lewis (2) it was a disgrace and cannot be considered as a legit victory

General Zod
03-22-2010, 12:18 PM
Hide offered Lewis repeated oppotunities to fight for his WBO title in late 94 to mid 95 all on BBC TV, his promoter Barry Hearns made legit offers to Lewis and all was turned down, so they went for another big fish in Riddick Bowe.
More misdirection
The WBO belt was a lowly regarded belt back in the early 90s, it was equivalent to having the IBO belt today. Also I liked the way you overlook the fact, which states that a WBC champ could not unify with a WBO champ. Hide was never as popular as say Bruno and there was never much of a public demand for it anyway.

To claim Holyfield was `shot` is ridiculous.. The guy knocked **** out of Tyson and was far from what you call a shot fighter.... take a look at the PPV numbers for Tyson vs Holyfield (1) against the Lewis vs McCall (2) fight...you will realize your talking ****e.
More misdirection
Why do you constantly do this? You constantly divert the subject when I prove you wrong. I am not saying that Holyfield was shot, I am saying that to everyone including Team Tyson that he looked like a fighter on the slide and easy pickings.

Ruiz always had a hold & hit style, i watched him live` beat Julius Francis in Bristol 1994..
Why dont you post a vid instead?

i told you Lewis vacated the title as King gave him $1 million... Lewis would have made at least $6 million for fighting Byrd.. Lewis refused to do business with King all his career, but because King could help him out of fighting Byrd, Lewis jumped at the chance.
lol, how was King helping him out. Lewis had no interest in fighting Byrd and was obviously dragging his feet about it, so to encourage him to vacate King paid him off.

i gave you a link on the Rock Newman offer of $12 million to fight Bowe and i will stick by that, i also seen Newman on BBC TV make the same offer... my eyes did not deceive me..
More misdirection
Dude seriously lol at this I like the way you completely ignored my links, its shows just how biased you are. The initial offer Newman offered Lewis was 90/10 which Maloney refused. Maloney's counter offer was for 75/25 in Bowes favor, which Newman refused.
Rock Newman also wanted Lewis to vacate his belt and he also wanted Duvas share off the purse to come out of Lewis's side, so Lewis final purse would of been much less that stated.

Bowe was not brain damaged during the 1990s are you saying the guy is incapable of talking?
More misdirection
You said that Bowe was not known for lying and I pointed out cases of him lying which were:
1: claiming to be brain damaged to get a lenient sentence
2: claiming to be not brain damaged so he can continue fighting
3: claiming to be sick to get out of a fight with Ruddock

yes i think there was a huge demand for Lewis to defend against the top contenders in Ruiz & Byrd, i dont think anyone wanted to see him duck them and fight Grant & Boths... Ruiz & Byrd would both KO Grant & Botha.
Ruiz and Byrd had fan unfriendly styles, Lewis was also boring who on earth would have wanted to watch those fights? Why dont you do a POLL about it , or post some articles to back up your opinion?

Who said anything about Lewis should have turned down McCall & fought Sanders?.... McCall was only days out of a drug rehab when he fought Lewis (2) it was a disgrace and cannot be considered as a legit victory
More misdirection
You said they fought on the same night which was Lewis McCall I, and my question was why should Lewis have fought Corrie, then after he just lost to McCall?

sonnyboyx2
03-22-2010, 01:08 PM
More misdirection
The WBO belt was a lowly regarded belt back in the early 90s, it was equivalent to having the IBO belt today. Also I liked the way you overlook the fact, which states that a WBC champ could not unify with a WBO champ. Hide was never as popular as say Bruno and there was never much of a public demand for it anyway.

More misdirection
Why do you constantly do this? You constantly divert the subject when I prove you wrong. I am not saying that Holyfield was shot, I am saying that to everyone including Team Tyson that he looked like a fighter on the slide and easy pickings.

Why dont you post a vid instead?

lol, how was King helping him out. Lewis had no interest in fighting Byrd and was obviously dragging his feet about it, so to encourage him to vacate King paid him off.

More misdirection
Dude seriously lol at this I like the way you completely ignored my links, its shows just how biased you are. The initial offer Newman offered Lewis was 90/10 which Maloney refused. Maloney's counter offer was for 75/25 in Bowes favor, which Newman refused.
Rock Newman also wanted Lewis to vacate his belt and he also wanted Duvas share off the purse to come out of Lewis's side, so Lewis final purse would of been much less that stated.

More misdirection
You said that Bowe was not known for lying and I pointed out cases of him lying which were:
1: claiming to be brain damaged to get a lenient sentence
2: claiming to be not brain damaged so he can continue fighting
3: claiming to be sick to get out of a fight with Ruddock

Ruiz and Byrd had fan unfriendly styles, Lewis was also boring who on earth would have wanted to watch those fights? Why dont you do a POLL about it , or post some articles to back up your opinion?

More misdirection
You said they fought on the same night which was Lewis McCall I, and my question was why should Lewis have fought Corrie, then after he just lost to McCall?

Lewis did not hold the WBC title in late 94 to mid 95, Lewis vs Hide was a huge fight in Britain

you repeatedly claimed Holyfield was shot... you even put up a couple of links claiming he was shot and had heart defects etc...

post a vid?... of what?... i seen Ruiz so i have no need to post any video

Lewis accepted a meagre $1 million instead of fighting Byrd and getting around 6 times that amount, just like he accepted a meagre $4 million step-a-side money from King and avoided a $12 million payday and guaranteed title shot against Tyson..

The initial offer was 75/25 just like Bowe told it was...Bowe should know, he was the champion in the discussions...

So you are saying Bowe knows nothing, he does not know what day of the ****in week it is due to brain damage eh..

you said Lewis was the better quality opponent for Tyson and not Holyfield... now your changing your story....

i am now finished with you on this topic because no matter how many links i provide you repeatedly `move the goalposts`... you have a very back case of nuthugging and will distort the truth to suit your agenda, but not once have you told me or shown me anything to change my opinion that Lewis ducked Ruiz, Tyson, Byrd, Jones, Witherspoon, Holmes, Sanders, Foreman, Moorer, Wlad, Hide & Vitali

Shazam!
03-22-2010, 02:13 PM
"i am now finished with you on this topic"

Crack's a callin, eh?

What a joker!

sonnyboyx2
03-22-2010, 02:33 PM
"i am now finished with you on this topic"

Crack's a callin, eh?

What a joker!

you are the joker.. you frequent this boxing forum but have nothing to say that is of interest or than anyone takes seriously.. so like you say "cracks callin" you better hurry on your daddy is waiting

Shazam!
03-22-2010, 02:43 PM
you are the joker.. you frequent this boxing forum but have nothing to say that is of interest or than anyone takes seriously.. so like you say "cracks callin" you better hurry on your daddy is waiting

:439: Spoke like a true crackhead!

Shazam!
03-22-2010, 03:21 PM
Mike Tyson: He's just too big, too strong. There's no way I could ever beat him.

George Foreman: He's the best heavyweight of all time.

And notice when Foreman says that....Larry Merchant doesn't argue.

Frazier: He definitely deserves to be up there with Ali and Foreman.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/specials/lewis_v_tyson_fight/2036717.stm

We goin with George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Larry Merchant and Mike Tyson? in at least acknowledging that Lewis is a top 5? AT LEAST?....or we goin with Sonnyboy? What we got?

Take it away George...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV5AMRL5-Hc

Mersey
03-22-2010, 04:23 PM
Mike Tyson: He's just too big, too strong. There's no way I could ever beat him.

George Foreman: He's the best heavyweight of all time.

And notice when Foreman says that....Larry Merchant doesn't argue.

Frazier: He definitely deserves to be up there with Ali and Foreman.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/specials/lewis_v_tyson_fight/2036717.stm

We goin with George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Larry Merchant and Mike Tyson? in at least acknowledging that Lewis is a top 5? AT LEAST?....or we goin with Sonnyboy? What we got?

Take it away George...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV5AMRL5-Hc

Those ex fighters don't know **** about boxing! Sonnybox knows more than them.

sonnyboyx2
03-22-2010, 04:48 PM
Mike Tyson: He's just too big, too strong. There's no way I could ever beat him.

George Foreman: He's the best heavyweight of all time.

And notice when Foreman says that....Larry Merchant doesn't argue.

Frazier: He definitely deserves to be up there with Ali and Foreman.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/specials/lewis_v_tyson_fight/2036717.stm

We goin with George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Larry Merchant and Mike Tyson? in at least acknowledging that Lewis is a top 5? AT LEAST?....or we goin with Sonnyboy? What we got?

Take it away George...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV5AMRL5-Hc

Check out Bert Sugar`s ATG list and see where he has Lewis among the heavyweights.... Lewis was often in most peoples Top 5 until i told it how it really was about him around 6yrs ago, now your lucky to see Lewis in the Top 15 of most Boxing fans lists... so i feel i have a duty to keep on educating new boxing fans about Lewis :fing26:

sonnyboyx2
03-22-2010, 04:58 PM
Mike Tyson: He's just too big, too strong. There's no way I could ever beat him.

George Foreman: He's the best heavyweight of all time.

And notice when Foreman says that....Larry Merchant doesn't argue.

Frazier: He definitely deserves to be up there with Ali and Foreman.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/specials/lewis_v_tyson_fight/2036717.stm

We goin with George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Larry Merchant and Mike Tyson? in at least acknowledging that Lewis is a top 5? AT LEAST?....or we goin with Sonnyboy? What we got?

Take it away George...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV5AMRL5-Hc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7mKnw1zysw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4RDkZBUTWY

Here is George talking about Lewis

Shazam!
03-22-2010, 06:05 PM
those aren't videos of George. They're rahman and mccall KOing Lewis. Do I sense a sore loser? :-D

Well I'll tell you what, you inspired me to put those quotes in my sig. Quotes which will now 'educate' every person who reads them in the future. So well done on that!

Some articles since Bert Sugar's 'list'....articles on Lennox being ATG Heavyweight from some more well-known boxing sites...

*************: http://www.*************.com/columns/scoop-classic-saluting-the-great-lennox-lewis/ (EDIT: haha well I guess this site/word is banned from boxingscene. You can find it via google just by entering 'saluting the great lennox lewis'

THE SWEET SCIENCE: http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/6886/lennox-lewis-yes-all-time-great/

CarlosG815
03-22-2010, 07:27 PM
those aren't videos of George. They're rahman and mccall KOing Lewis. Do I sense a sore loser? :-D

Well I'll tell you what, you inspired me to put those quotes in my sig. Quotes which will now 'educate' every person who reads them in the future. So well done on that!

Some articles since Bert Sugar's 'list'....articles on Lennox being ATG Heavyweight from some more well-known boxing sites...

*************: http://www.*************.com/columns/scoop-classic-saluting-the-great-lennox-lewis/ (EDIT: haha well I guess this site/word is banned from boxingscene. You can find it via google just by entering 'saluting the great lennox lewis'

THE SWEET SCIENCE: http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/6886/lennox-lewis-yes-all-time-great/

That sig makes you look stupid.

Shazam!
03-23-2010, 07:03 AM
That sig makes you look stupid.

please explain :-)

You're a big Tyson fan, right?

Just guessing.

sonnyboyx2
03-23-2010, 07:40 AM
please explain :-)

You're a big Tyson fan, right?

Just guessing.

i am not a fan.. i enjoy watching great fighters and that is exactly what Mike Tyson was.. Lewis was not a great fighter he avoided every fighter who was at the top of their game his whole career and fought nothing but exposed class c fighters who was on the slide... i love it when Lewis nuthuggers like you try to diminish the achievements of Mike Tyson in a bid to glorify Lewis... it will never work.... Lewis was a british/Canadian thing...you are so deluded your the kind of nuthugger who even claims Lewis would have beat Tyson when Tyson was in his prime

sonnyboyx2
03-23-2010, 07:47 AM
You should read Larry Holmes autobiography "Against The Odds" Holmes says Joe Frazier would have bombed out Lennox Lewis in under 2rds..

Larry Holmes has always had some nice things to say about Lewis..

Junito-Rulez
03-23-2010, 08:02 AM
Lennox Lewis was the king of his era. Joe Frazier was the king one night.

sonnyboyx2
03-23-2010, 08:05 AM
Lennox Lewis was the king of his era. Joe Frazier was the king one night.

Frazier was King from 67-73... Lewis cannot be called King of his era as he was "Stripped of every belt" for refusing to fight the No1 contenders... like it or not, but it is true.

The_Demon
03-23-2010, 08:24 AM
lennox lewis

Shazam!
03-23-2010, 09:13 AM
Frazier was King from 67-73... Lewis cannot be called King of his era as he was "Stripped of every belt" for refusing to fight the No1 contenders... like it or not, but it is true.

Strange that he's regularly referred to as such then, isn't it?

sonnyboyx2
03-23-2010, 09:20 AM
Strange that he's regularly referred to as such then, isn't it?

i only hear nuthuggers claim so.. But to be stripped of every belt for refusing to fight the No1 contenders is a terrible stain on his legacy, especially when he refused to fight John Ruiz, who went on to win the title twice and is soon to be challenging for it in the near future.. its clear that Lewis avoided Ruiz

T-97
03-23-2010, 10:06 AM
I'd say Frazier, not by a huge margain though. Losing to George Foreman is nothing be ashamed of, especially a young, prime Foreman. Also, going 1-2 with Ali isn't a bad thing either, he de-throned the man generally regarded as the greatest heavyweight of all time. (Just to clarify, I mean he was the first to beat him, incase anyone thought I meant he won the title from Ali).

Lewis's losses to Rahman and McCall are pretty big hits to his legacy, even though he did avenge them.

CarlosG815
03-23-2010, 11:55 AM
please explain :-)

You're a big Tyson fan, right?

Just guessing.

Whether you like it or not, most of what sonnyboy is saying is true and most people would agree.

Nobody loves Lennox Lewis like they do other ATG's for all the reason's listed above and throw in the fact that he was a snooze to watch and just didn't look good when he fought or threw punches.

Then you put quotes like that in your sig about a fighter like that... It makes you look like a Lewis nuthugger trying to use other fighters' opinions to backup your love, which will not work.

George says things at ringside in the heat of the moment after big fights that should be taken with a grain of salt. `

Tyson was doped up when he said that and trying to be humble because he wanted a rematch with Lennox for another payday. He even said "Please, sir?" to Lennox. Could you see 86 Tyson who said day after day, even after losing to Douglas, "I'm the best fighter in the world, nobody can beat me." You think that guy was the same as the 2002 guy? Get real. :haha:

Shazam!
03-23-2010, 04:06 PM
Whether you like it or not, most of what sonnyboy is saying is true and most people would agree.

That's it. If nothing else works, a complete pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see you through ;-)

Nobody loves Lennox Lewis like they do other ATG's for all the reason's listed above and throw in the fact that he was a snooze to watch and just didn't look good when he fought or threw punches.

So was Lewis 'not throwing punches' when he out-landed the beloved Holyfield 350-120? Nice try ;-)

Or maybe you're gonna tell me that Larry Holmes was a spectacular KO artist than Lennox Lewis? Face it ****o, you don't like Lennox Lewis because he aint American. PERIOD.

Then you put quotes like that in your sig about a fighter like that... It makes you look like a Lewis nuthugger trying to use other fighters' opinions to backup your love, which will not work.

Hmm, wait a minute. First of all, I'm a Lewis fan. I'm not a fan of many British fighters ie Hatton, Calzaghe etc even though I respect their accomplishments. But I'm a fan of watching Lennox Lewis because I always loved his style and the way he had to overcome being ducked by ******* like Riddick Bowe who shamefully throws his belt in the trash instead of fighting Lewis.

I'm a fan of the way Lewis KTFO out of the best your country has to offer for 15 years despite being ****ed over by your disgustingly corrupt system built by greedmongers and criminals. But Lewis kept going back to the states and kept beating em. I'm a fan of him absolutely dominated everything you had to offer again and again and again. And when you finally found someone to beat him? I'm a fan of the way he came back and knocked them the **** out too.

Lewis rose against adversity to meet every challenge he ever faced and conquer every single style he had to face in a very strong heavyweight era. An era which many have said was the best since Ali's 60's and 70's heyday.

Then I'm called deluded for saying that Lennox is a great heavyweight. So I quote George Frazier, George Foreman, Manny Steward, Tyson (a SMARTER man now than he was 25 years ago, undeniably)...who all agree with my opinion. YOUR legends, mate ;-)

I have to admit though, it is really quite amusing, bearing witness to how deeply frustrated some people get at the thought of it being what, about 20years since an American heavyweight ruled the sport. Get over it man. You've had some great fighters in that time.

Just not heavyweights.

Keep hatin!

CarlosG815
03-23-2010, 04:30 PM
That's it. If nothing else works, a complete pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see you through ;-)



So was Lewis 'not throwing punches' when he out-landed the beloved Holyfield 350-120? Nice try ;-)

Or maybe you're gonna tell me that Larry Holmes was a spectacular KO artist than Lennox Lewis? Face it ****o, you don't like Lennox Lewis because he aint American. PERIOD.



Hmm, wait a minute. First of all, I'm a Lewis fan. I'm not a fan of many British fighters ie Hatton, Calzaghe etc even though I respect their accomplishments. But I'm a fan of watching Lennox Lewis because I always loved his style and the way he had to overcome being ducked by ******* like Riddick Bowe who shamefully throws his belt in the trash instead of fighting Lewis.

I'm a fan of the way Lewis KTFO out of the best your country has to offer for 15 years despite being ****ed over by your disgustingly corrupt system built by greedmongers and criminals. But Lewis kept going back to the states and kept beating em. I'm a fan of him absolutely dominated everything you had to offer again and again and again. And when you finally found someone to beat him? I'm a fan of the way he came back and knocked them the **** out too.

Lewis rose against adversity to meet every challenge he ever faced and conquer every single style he had to face in a very strong heavyweight era. An era which many have said was the best since Ali's 60's and 70's heyday.

Then I'm called deluded for saying that Lennox is a great heavyweight. So I quote George Frazier, George Foreman, Manny Steward, Tyson (a SMARTER man now than he was 25 years ago, undeniably)...who all agree with my opinion. YOUR legends, mate ;-)

I have to admit though, it is really quite amusing, bearing witness to how deeply frustrated some people get at the thought of it being what, about 20years since an American heavyweight ruled the sport. Get over it man. You've had some great fighters in that time.

Just not heavyweights.

Keep hatin!

blah blah blah, you keep repeating the same bull**** drab.

I could care less where a fighter is from. American, British, Mexican, Middle Eastern, Filipino, Italian, whatever. I like fighters who are explosive, exciting, fighters who can win fights convincingly and entertain, because that's what boxing is. It's entertaining. Lennox Lewis has high end names on his list of W's, but nobody in their prime, and he was knocked out by Hasim Bum'man with a pitter patter tap.

I'm not even that big a fan of the heavyweight division because since Tyson became washed up/retired, heavyweight boxing was DEAD.

My all time favorites are mostly heavyweights, but since the late 90's all of my favorite fighters have been lightweight to welterweight.

I don't care what ethnicity a fighter is as long as I get my money's worth, and Lennox does not give me my money's worth!

Shazam!
03-23-2010, 04:48 PM
ok that's fair enough. I take back the comment about ethnicity. But a lot of people, obviously including myself, believe Lewis to be a very smart, skilled fighter who was also capable of spectacular KO's. If you watched him vs Ruddock, 2nd fight vs Rahman, or against say Klitschko, Botha, Golota, Grant etc etc you'll see some spectacular action. At other times ie against people like Tyson and Tua he was more cautious and waited for openings. He just knew that you can't jump in and knock everyone out like Tyson did 85-88. He changed his style up depending on who he was fighting.

The arguments we're all having about Lewis concerns his effectivness a) what did he accomplish and b) how would he fare against certain other fighters in a hypothetical situation. Not about how exciting you thought he was or who's your favourite fighter.

sonnyboyx2
03-23-2010, 05:00 PM
That's it. If nothing else works, a complete pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see you through ;-)



So was Lewis 'not throwing punches' when he out-landed the beloved Holyfield 350-120? Nice try ;-)

Or maybe you're gonna tell me that Larry Holmes was a spectacular KO artist than Lennox Lewis? Face it ****o, you don't like Lennox Lewis because he aint American. PERIOD.



Hmm, wait a minute. First of all, I'm a Lewis fan. I'm not a fan of many British fighters ie Hatton, Calzaghe etc even though I respect their accomplishments. But I'm a fan of watching Lennox Lewis because I always loved his style and the way he had to overcome being ducked by ******* like Riddick Bowe who shamefully throws his belt in the trash instead of fighting Lewis.

I'm a fan of the way Lewis KTFO out of the best your country has to offer for 15 years despite being ****ed over by your disgustingly corrupt system built by greedmongers and criminals. But Lewis kept going back to the states and kept beating em. I'm a fan of him absolutely dominated everything you had to offer again and again and again. And when you finally found someone to beat him? I'm a fan of the way he came back and knocked them the **** out too.

Lewis rose against adversity to meet every challenge he ever faced and conquer every single style he had to face in a very strong heavyweight era. An era which many have said was the best since Ali's 60's and 70's heyday.

Then I'm called deluded for saying that Lennox is a great heavyweight. So I quote George Frazier, George Foreman, Manny Steward, Tyson (a SMARTER man now than he was 25 years ago, undeniably)...who all agree with my opinion. YOUR legends, mate ;-)

I have to admit though, it is really quite amusing, bearing witness to how deeply frustrated some people get at the thought of it being what, about 20years since an American heavyweight ruled the sport. Get over it man. You've had some great fighters in that time.

Just not heavyweights.

Keep hatin!

i would say Larry Holmes was just as strong a KO puncher as Lewis was, Holmes quality of opponents KOd was better than Lewis..

Lewis was not ducked by Riddick Bowe like you claim.. here is a link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Lewis never like you claim knocked the **** out of the best the USA had to offer for 15yrs.. Lewis avoided the best the USA had to offer for most of that time, Holmes, Foreman, Moorer, Ruiz, Witherspoon, Byrd, Jones jr. Tyson 96, Bowe 93 & 95..

Lewis kept going back to the states to fight bums in Akinwande, Mavrovic, Rahman, Tua, McCall, Briggs, Grant, Golota, Morrison, Butler, Jackson, Tucker all very poor opponents who Lewis was huge odds on to beat.

and you claim those bums to be a very strong era of heavyweights as good as even the 60s & 70s.... you know nothing about the sport of boxing.

George Foreman was a notorious bull****er who will say anything to diminishe Muhammad Ali`s standing.. reading Foremans autobiography tells you that he is someone with a vivid imagination who`s word cannot be taken seriously.. Manny Stewart laughs now when Lewis name is mentioned and claims Wlad is the best heavyweight he has ever trained...both paid Stewart wages so cannot be taken seriously, Frazier is more or less brain-dead in our days.

Lewis never ruled the sport like you claim.. he got a very disputed decision victory over old Holyfield who was years past his best and suffering with heart problems, Lewis then had every version of that title stripped from him for refusing to fight the No1 contenders... That is not "ruling the sport" - That is "running scared"... Lewis is the only champion in history to be stripped of every title for refusing to fight the top contenders, how humiliating is that...

listen son... i know you idolize Lennox Lewis and dont like to hear the truth about him because it hurts you and spoils the imaginary image you have of him, but you need to understand that people who are hard-core boxing fans find nuthuggers like you a little bit simple in the head, but we understand and realize that you will grow out of it, its just a teenage thing.. :moon:

Shazam!
03-23-2010, 05:14 PM
i would say Larry Holmes was just as strong a KO puncher as Lewis was, Holmes quality of opponents KOd was better than Lewis..

Lewis was not ducked by Riddick Bowe like you claim.. here is a link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Lewis never like you claim knocked the **** out of the best the USA had to offer for 15yrs.. Lewis avoided the best the USA had to offer for most of that time, Holmes, Foreman, Moorer, Ruiz, Witherspoon, Byrd, Jones jr. Tyson 96, Bowe 93 & 95..

Lewis kept going back to the states to fight bums in Akinwande, Mavrovic, Rahman, Tua, McCall, Briggs, Grant, Golota, Morrison, Butler, Jackson, Tucker all very poor opponents who Lewis was huge odds on to beat.

and you claim those bums to be a very strong era of heavyweights as good as even the 60s & 70s.... you know nothing about the sport of boxing.

George Foreman was a notorious bull****er who will say anything to diminishe Muhammad Ali`s standing.. reading Foremans autobiography tells you that he is someone with a vivid imagination who`s word cannot be taken seriously.. Manny Stewart laughs now when Lewis name is mentioned and claims Wlad is the best heavyweight he has ever trained...both paid Stewart wages so cannot be taken seriously, Frazier is more or less brain-dead in our days.

Lewis never ruled the sport like you claim.. he got a very disputed decision victory over old Holyfield who was years past his best and suffering with heart problems, Lewis then had every version of that title stripped from him for refusing to fight the No1 contenders... That is not "ruling the sport" - That is "running scared"... Lewis is the only champion in history to be stripped of every title for refusing to fight the top contenders, how humiliating is that...

listen son... i know you idolize Lennox Lewis and dont like to hear the truth about him because it hurts you and spoils the imaginary image you have of him, but you need to understand that people who are hard-core boxing fans find nuthuggers like you a little bit simple in the head, but we understand and realize that you will grow out of it, its just a teenage thing.. :moon:

Heheh, this was particularly amusing. This post is like a 'sonnyboy Greatest Hits Post'. In typical fashion, every single line in it is highly disputable. And so pathetic also that, despite my clearly schooling you and out-witting you in every area (not least grammar, an area in which you clearly need a lot of help), you begin to call me 'son' despite knowing zero about me. What a big boy you are ;-)

I previously believed you may have been a crack-head because nothing else made sense. I wondered about a person who spends the majority of his time posting on a message board about how much he hates someone and barely any time talking about what he likes. One day you will realise just how truly insecure that is...

I've also entertained the possibility that you just suffer from chronic retardation. In which case, you may never come to that realisation.

Last thing...what's that big, long string of red squares under your username? Is that what all the other 'people who know everything about boxing' get when they prove how 'respectable' they are?

CarlosG815
03-23-2010, 05:18 PM
and you claim those bums to be a very strong era of heavyweights as good as even the 60s & 70s.... you know nothing about the sport of boxing.


This is true.

CarlosG815
03-23-2010, 05:20 PM
Last thing...what's that big, long string of red squares under your username? Is that what all the other 'people who know everything about boxing' get when they prove how 'respectable' they are?

That's what you get when you don't swing from Pacquiao's family jewels on NSB. Maybe you haven't been here long enough to know how this **** works, but you get rep by posting nude pics of your girl in the mature lounge, or by posting Pac-Huggery.

If you speak out against him you will get red Karma all day. Take reputation with a grain of salt.

Shazam!
03-23-2010, 05:24 PM
This is true.

FAIL AGAIN! You're on a roll Carlos!

Haha....I'm gonna spell this out very, very clearly so that tweedle dee and tweedle dum can understand. Lord knows you need it.

I said Lewis's era was the best era 'since Ali's era'.

Sonnyboy then made up a special new sentence, claiming that I said 'as good as Ali's era'.

These are two completely different statements, aren't they? Do you understand that? One is true. That means I said it. One is false. That means I didn't say it.

sonnyboyx2
03-23-2010, 05:25 PM
Heheh, this was particularly amusing. This post is like a 'sonnyboy Greatest Hits Post'. In typical fashion, every single line in it is highly disputable. And so pathetic also that, despite my clearly schooling you and out-witting you in every area (not least grammar, an area in which you clearly need a lot of help), you begin to call me 'son' despite knowing zero about me. What a big boy you are ;-)

I previously believed you may have been a crack-head because nothing else made sense. I wondered about a person who spends the majority of his time posting on a message board about how much he hates someone and barely any time talking about what he likes. One day you will realise just how truly insecure that is...

I've also entertained the possibility that you just suffer from chronic retardation. In which case, you may never come to that realisation.

Last thing...what's that big, long string of red squares under your username? Is that what all the other 'people who know everything about boxing' get when they prove how 'respectable' they are?

The truth has hurt you real bad, so now you have started to Ridicule me personally even tho you dont know me or know anything about me... but dont worry about it, i can take it, you will get over it or you will just move on and find some little kids who will believe your imaginary stories about Lennox Lewis, but on this section of the forum i dont think you will find it so easy to find the people to believe you, but dont worry you`ll get over it in time

Shazam!
03-23-2010, 05:31 PM
People have said 'dont listen to sonnyboy, he's just a hater' and also in private messaging from people who obviously despise you, advising me what kind of a reputation you have as the village idiot. But don't worry, I'm merely putting my opinions out there for other people to see ;-) You can argue as much as you want.

CarlosG815
03-23-2010, 05:32 PM
FAIL AGAIN! You're on a roll Carlos!

Haha....I'm gonna spell this out very, very clearly so that tweedle dee and tweedle dum can understand. Lord knows you need it.

I said Lewis's era was the best era 'since Ali's era'.

Sonnyboy then made up a special new sentence, claiming that I said 'as good as Ali's era'.

These are two completely different statements, aren't they? Do you understand that? One is true. That means I said it. One is false. That means I didn't say it.

But to say it's the "best since Ali's era" is meaningless. The 80's was the best era since Ali's era as well, that hold's no water, unless you meant that his era was as good as Ali's, which would make you an idiot.

What is your point?

sonnyboyx2
03-24-2010, 04:55 AM
People have said 'dont listen to sonnyboy, he's just a hater' and also in private messaging from people who obviously despise you, advising me what kind of a reputation you have as the village idiot. But don't worry, I'm merely putting my opinions out there for other people to see ;-) You can argue as much as you want.

a `Hater` does not pay good money to go and watch a boxer live` on several occasions, paying for travel, over-night hotel bills and top priced tickets... That is the actions of a fan.
But what is hurting you is that i am telling it like it really happened, because "I was there"... i dont get sucked into this imaginary world like you have of claiming Lewis beat the best fighters in the greatest era of all time, That he beat every man he ever fought, That Tyson was not `Shot, That Riddick Bowe ducked him, blah, blah, blah... you come across as someone in their teens or early 20s who knows very little about the sport of boxing, yet from your comments which i have read so far on the topics, it seems to me that you have something personal against The Great Mike Tyson.. .. Tyson has nothing to prove to you, me or any other boxing fan the world over, he was without doubt one of the, if not thee most exciting fighter since the days of Jack Dempsey, so i suggest you invest in some literature & videos of Mike Tyson and you will then understand just how great he was for the sport of boxing..As for Lennox Lewis remember that `I was There` you was not, i followed his career from start to finish and know what i am talking about, where you are just a young guy who bought a poster of Lewis from your local news-agents and worships it each night, then comes on this forum spewing-out drivel, claiming Lewis could do this to him and that to them, Foreman said this and Stewart said that etc etc, i have addressed every claim you have made about Lewis which i see as being incorrect, so now you are starting personal insults and ridicule towards me, i suggest you start to grow-up.

Telepath
03-24-2010, 05:49 AM
That thing about Lewis simply "having a nonexistent jab" is bull****.

The Lewis that fought Frank Bruno did, however, have a very bad jab, that was mostly used as a range-finder to set up some bomb. It was far more developed later.

The most devastating punch he had was actually the left hook, in my opinion.

sonnyboyx2
03-24-2010, 05:53 AM
That thing about Lewis simply "having a nonexistent jab" is bull****.

The Lewis that fought Frank Bruno did, however, have a very bad jab, that was mostly used as a range-finder to set up some bomb. It was far more developed later.

The most devastating punch he had was actually the left hook, in my opinion.

it was not a "nonexistent jab" but it was far from being a lethal weapon like Ali, Holmes, Liston & Joe Louis jab.. The jab of Lennox Lewis was a "Paw-like, Distraction" he never beat-up any opponent with his jab.. Frank Bruno gave Lewis a lesson in jabbing as did Ray Mercer.

Telepath
03-24-2010, 05:55 AM
it was not a "nonexistent jab" but it was far from being a lethal weapon like Ali, Holmes, Liston & Joe Louis jab.. The jab of Lennox Lewis was a "Paw-like, Distraction" he never beat-up any opponent with his jab.. Frank Bruno gave Lewis a lesson in jabbing as did Ray Mercer.I think you underrate it. Surely it wasn't a Liston jab, but I think in the later stage of his career, it was stronger than Ali's, albeit Ali _used_ his jab much better, and was of course a lot faster.

Shazam!
03-24-2010, 06:18 AM
*Shakes head* as someone said earlier, a pathetic hater.

Too much time on your hands sonnyboy. You should spend it reading an English spelling and grammar book.

Anyone know if it's possible to block this guy? He's the only downer on an otherwise interesting forum.

sonnyboyx2
03-24-2010, 08:02 AM
*Shakes head* as someone said earlier, a pathetic hater.

Too much time on your hands sonnyboy. You should spend it reading an English spelling and grammar book.

Anyone know if it's possible to block this guy? He's the only downer on an otherwise interesting forum.

i have quite a bit of time on my hands as i am retired, yet i notice you are on here from morning to night, obviously you are unemployed

sonnyboyx2
03-24-2010, 08:04 AM
*Shakes head* as someone said earlier, a pathetic hater.

Too much time on your hands sonnyboy. You should spend it reading an English spelling and grammar book.

Anyone know if it's possible to block this guy? He's the only downer on an otherwise interesting forum.

ive obviously hurt your feelings by telling you how it really was with Lewis career... The one thing you must always remember when talking about Lennox Lewis is that he is the only champion in history to be stripped of every belt for refusing to fight the No1 contenders... like it or not, its true

CarlosG815
03-24-2010, 01:05 PM
a `Hater` does not pay good money to go and watch a boxer live` on several occasions, paying for travel, over-night hotel bills and top priced tickets... That is the actions of a fan.
But what is hurting you is that i am telling it like it really happened, because "I was there"... i dont get sucked into this imaginary world like you have of claiming Lewis beat the best fighters in the greatest era of all time, That he beat every man he ever fought, That Tyson was not `Shot, That Riddick Bowe ducked him, blah, blah, blah... you come across as someone in their teens or early 20s who knows very little about the sport of boxing, yet from your comments which i have read so far on the topics, it seems to me that you have something personal against The Great Mike Tyson.. .. Tyson has nothing to prove to you, me or any other boxing fan the world over, he was without doubt one of the, if not thee most exciting fighter since the days of Jack Dempsey, so i suggest you invest in some literature & videos of Mike Tyson and you will then understand just how great he was for the sport of boxing..As for Lennox Lewis remember that `I was There` you was not, i followed his career from start to finish and know what i am talking about, where you are just a young guy who bought a poster of Lewis from your local news-agents and worships it each night, then comes on this forum spewing-out drivel, claiming Lewis could do this to him and that to them, Foreman said this and Stewart said that etc etc, i have addressed every claim you have made about Lewis which i see as being incorrect, so now you are starting personal insults and ridicule towards me, i suggest you start to grow-up.

Excellent post. Perfect mix of experience, education, etiquette and humor.

Shazam, you aren't on Sonnyboy's level. You are coming off as a serious ******* who is delusional to a fighter that he loves - like a small child.

He obviously has seen more film, read more literature, and been to more fights than you have, so there is really nothing wrong with just walking away from this one. No need to block anyone, argue, or make anymore insults. Just leave it alone and walk away, before you come off as not just an *******, but a stupid *******. That's the worst kind of *******, shazam. Just walk away. :wave:

Shazam!
03-24-2010, 03:03 PM
He obviously has seen more film, read more literature, and been to more fights than you have

All of that means nothing if you have an agenda.

CarlosG815
03-24-2010, 05:28 PM
All of that means nothing if you have an agenda.

Many would agree he's calling it like he see's it, which btw was live and in person.

I'd guess you got most of your knowledge from youtube highlight videos.

oaklandstephen
03-25-2010, 05:31 AM
everyone lennox fought he beat and he fought everyone!! frazier beat ali and that was a good win but i dont see people rating norton higher the lennox.