View Full Version : Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters List......Give Me Your Opinion!


Southpaw16BF
03-12-2010, 01:42 AM
Here is Mr Bert Sugars 100 greatest fighters list. Now read through it closley, and mark the fighters in RED that you think are to HIGH, and BLUE for the fighters that are to LOW. Only do it by this format Historians! Here's the list!

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. Dick Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

sonnyboyx2
03-12-2010, 02:44 AM
Bert knows his stuff!

mhager91490
03-12-2010, 03:31 AM
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. Dick Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

How he can put Griffith as high as 29 and include Rocky Graziano and Aaron Pryor on the list but leave out Luis Rodriguez is stupifying to me. You could make a strong argument for Luis being ranked above Emile if you have watched their fights against each other.

I'm not going to act like I put a super amount of thought into my decision making but to me this list reads like it is:

A) Someone who hasn't watched many or any fights from many of the fighters on this list.

B) Trying to get as many recognizable names on the list but still look credible.

Most of the fighters Pre 1940 I choose not to comment on just because I don't know much about them and don't feel qualified to really judge them.

There are probably more things on this list I could point out if I really buckled down and thought about it but I'll just leave it at this list leaves much to be desired from my viewpoint.

Thread Stealer
03-12-2010, 03:53 AM
I'd really need to do more research to come up with a top 100 list.

However, listing guys like Rocky Graziano and Aaron Pryor while omitting Michael Spinks is inexplicable.

How is a guy that's arguably top 5 in a traditional weight class in LHW, who moves up to defeat the legitimate HW champion, not on there?

I would not have Jack Dempsey or Rocky Marciano that high.

The Beatles
03-12-2010, 04:12 AM
oh is this the list where Roy Jones is 88???? exit thread

LeeVanCleef
03-12-2010, 04:20 AM
Post no. 5 sure KNOWS what he's talking about. My suggestion: make your own if you want to make yourself relevant to this thread.

DeepSleep
03-12-2010, 04:22 AM
It's hard to take a guys seriously when he is supposed to be an expert and never stepped in to the ring himself. I know many people who could tell me who was the middleweight champion during 1912 who couldn't tell me how to parry a jab. After reading some of his "pre-fight analysis" articles I'm not sure he has any idea what he is watching.

Joey Giardello
03-12-2010, 03:20 PM
Here is Mr Bert Sugars 100 greatest fighters list. Now read through it closley, and mark the fighters in RED that you think are to HIGH, and BLUE for the fighters that are to LOW. Only do it by this format Historians! Here's the list!

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. Dick Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

..........................................

Joey Giardello
03-12-2010, 03:23 PM
Bert knows his stuff!

bert is over rated for a guy who knows his stuff how can he forget michael spinks, felix trinidad, harold johnson, holman williams and lennox lewis? and place roy jones at number 88?

sonnyboyx2
03-13-2010, 04:40 AM
It's hard to take a guys seriously when he is supposed to be an expert and never stepped in to the ring himself. I know many people who could tell me who was the middleweight champion during 1912 who couldn't tell me how to parry a jab. After reading some of his "pre-fight analysis" articles I'm not sure he has any idea what he is watching.

so only guys who have boxed professionaly are taken seriously when ATG lists are put up, is what you are saying?

Bert Sugar has followed boxing for 50yrs, he was editor of the 2 biggest fight publications, "Boxing Illustrated & Ring Magazine" he has sat ringside for thousands of fights and wrote dozens of books and articles on the sport, yet you are claiming the guy has `No Idea` :thinking:

sonnyboyx2
03-13-2010, 04:42 AM
bert is over rated for a guy who knows his stuff how can he forget michael spinks, felix trinidad, harold johnson, holman williams and lennox lewis? and place roy jones at number 88?

only Spinks from your list would make my top 100, the others i would not give a 2nd thought too

DeepSleep
03-13-2010, 04:56 AM
so only guys who have boxed professionaly are taken seriously when ATG lists are put up, is what you are saying?

Bert Sugar has followed boxing for 50yrs, he was editor of the 2 biggest fight publications, "Boxing Illustrated & Ring Magazine" he has sat ringside for thousands of fights and wrote dozens of books and articles on the sport, yet you are claiming the guy has `No Idea` :thinking:

Now don't put words in my mouth, I said nothing about professional. In order to understand a sport it is required you have had experience playing it. Basketball analysts are ex-basketball players, football analysts are ex-football players, yet in Boxing you get plenty of guys who never boxed at all who claim to be experts.

Now I would have a hard time taking a basketball analyst seriously who never played the game, why should it be any different for boxing?

sonnyboyx2
03-13-2010, 09:30 AM
Now don't put words in my mouth, I said nothing about professional. In order to understand a sport it is required you have had experience playing it. Basketball analysts are ex-basketball players, football analysts are ex-football players, yet in Boxing you get plenty of guys who never boxed at all who claim to be experts.

Now I would have a hard time taking a basketball analyst seriously who never played the game, why should it be any different for boxing?

Boxing - Ray Arcel , Gil Clancy & Eddie Futch never boxed yet they was the most knowledgable men in the history of the sport, i could name you a 100 successful football managers who never played the sport, the same goes for swimming, Horse Racing, Motor racing etc etc

Pirao
03-13-2010, 11:04 AM
Mike Tyson and Evander are in there, but not Lennox? GTFO.

sonnyboyx2
03-13-2010, 12:58 PM
Mike Tyson and Evander are in there, but not Lennox? GTFO.

if Bert was to put Lennox in he may as well put Danny Williams & Kevin McBride in because they beat Tyson when he was years past his best just like Lewis did, infact they both beat him easier than what Lewis did.. Lewis was unfortunate to only get a draw with a old Holyfield but Evander was robbed in their return fight, Lewis got KOd by a couple of journeymen fighters and beat a bunch of hand-picked Class C fighters, so Bert rightly gives Lennox zero credit for beating ATG legends Holyfield & Tyson

CarlosG815
03-13-2010, 01:02 PM
if Bert was to put Lennox in he may as well put Danny Williams & Kevin McBride in because they beat Tyson when he was years past his best just like Lewis did, infact they both beat him easier than what Lewis did.. Lewis was unfortunate to only get a draw with a old Holyfield but Evander was robbed in their return fight, Lewis got KOd by a couple of journeymen fighters and beat a bunch of hand-picked Class C fighters, so Bert rightly gives Lennox zero credit for beating ATG legends Holyfield & Tyson

:biggthump

TheGreatA
03-13-2010, 01:12 PM
Boxing - Ray Arcel , Gil Clancy & Eddie Futch never boxed yet they was the most knowledgable men in the history of the sport, i could name you a 100 successful football managers who never played the sport, the same goes for swimming, Horse Racing, Motor racing etc etc

I'm pretty sure that Futch boxed, he said he often sparred with the great Joe Louis, not sure about Glancy or Arcel. I'd be somewhat surprised if they didn't.

One can't deny Bert Sugar's contributions to the sport but I'm not so sure about how knowledgeable he truly is. Not only about boxing itself but its history. His writings and speeches are often inaccurate and he doesn't even seem to care whether he is being factual or not, considering that he keeps repeating myths that have long since been proven wrong.

He is a good writer however and tells a story better than most people could and he did do great work with the Ring Magazine.

crold1
03-13-2010, 01:48 PM
Boxing - Ray Arcel , Gil Clancy & Eddie Futch never boxed yet they was the most knowledgable men in the history of the sport, i could name you a 100 successful football managers who never played the sport, the same goes for swimming, Horse Racing, Motor racing etc etc

Eddie Futch boxed and sparred with Joe Louis. He didn't fight pro because of a heart irregularity but he was a successful amateur.

steeluv
03-13-2010, 02:17 PM
its hard to say why he put benny leonard and harry greb up there in top ten, he was not around at the time of theses of these fighters, and the videos and quality are limited of these guys

Jim Jeffries
03-13-2010, 02:38 PM
if Bert was to put Lennox in he may as well put Danny Williams & Kevin McBride in because they beat Tyson when he was years past his best just like Lewis did, infact they both beat him easier than what Lewis did.. Lewis was unfortunate to only get a draw with a old Holyfield but Evander was robbed in their return fight, Lewis got KOd by a couple of journeymen fighters and beat a bunch of hand-picked Class C fighters, so Bert rightly gives Lennox zero credit for beating ATG legends Holyfield & Tyson

Also, while Lewis cracks most top 10 ATG HW lists, his 240-250 lb size is enough to keep him out of most top 100 ATG lists.

sonnyboyx2
03-13-2010, 02:48 PM
I'm pretty sure that Futch boxed, he said he often sparred with the great Joe Louis, not sure about Glancy or Arcel. I'd be somewhat surprised if they didn't.

One can't deny Bert Sugar's contributions to the sport but I'm not so sure about how knowledgeable he truly is. Not only about boxing itself but its history. His writings and speeches are often inaccurate and he doesn't even seem to care whether he is being factual or not, considering that he keeps repeating myths that have long since been proven wrong.

He is a good writer however and tells a story better than most people could and he did do great work with the Ring Magazine.

i agree that Bert comes across as a bit of a buffoon and like you say often comes out with claims which are untrue, yet it still remains that he is and has been heavily involved in this sport for decades, i am positive that if a TV company was looking for someone to talk about the history of this sport they would sooner choose Bert Sugar than you or myself, i personally see little wrong with his list other than he favors pre 1950s fighters. yet we would all include our own favorites over some ATG fighters.. Bert being a former editor of those two fight publications would have had access to archives of ringside reports from as far back as the 1920s so it is stupidity to underestimate his knowledge.

DeepSleep
03-13-2010, 05:30 PM
Boxing - Ray Arcel , Gil Clancy & Eddie Futch never boxed yet they was the most knowledgable men in the history of the sport, i could name you a 100 successful football managers who never played the sport, the same goes for swimming, Horse Racing, Motor racing etc etc

Ray Arcel boxed.
http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/1770/trainer-ray-arcel-ring-poet-doc-sock/

Gil Clancy boxed in the army. http://www.*********.com/judgejake/clancyfinal.htm
(Replace the ********* with f(igh)tbeat)

Eddie Futch was a golden gloves champ.
http://www.answers.com/topic/eddie-futch

DeepSleep
03-13-2010, 05:52 PM
i agree that Bert comes across as a bit of a buffoon and like you say often comes out with claims which are untrue, yet it still remains that he is and has been heavily involved in this sport for decades, i am positive that if a TV company was looking for someone to talk about the history of this sport they would sooner choose Bert Sugar than you or myself, i personally see little wrong with his list other than he favors pre 1950s fighters. yet we would all include our own favorites over some ATG fighters.. Bert being a former editor of those two fight publications would have had access to archives of ringside reports from as far back as the 1920s so it is stupidity to underestimate his knowledge.

I don't question his knowledge of the history aspect of boxing. I question his actual knowledge of boxing itself. Like I said in my earlier post I bet Bert Sugar could ramble off the list of linear Heavyweight champs in order from the year 1890, but he still most likely couldn't tell you how to parry a jab correctly.

Levcon8686
03-13-2010, 06:04 PM
JCC at 17 and Hopkins at 91 is hard for me to fathom.

sonnyboyx2
03-13-2010, 08:50 PM
Ray Arcel boxed.
http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/1770/trainer-ray-arcel-ring-poet-doc-sock/

Gil Clancy boxed in the army. http://www.*********.com/judgejake/clancyfinal.htm
(Replace the ********* with f(igh)tbeat)

Eddie Futch was a golden gloves champ.
http://www.answers.com/topic/eddie-futch

yeah.. and me and my young brother boxed in our back garden with some gloves an uncle gave us. :thinking:

DeepSleep
03-13-2010, 10:49 PM
yeah.. and me and my young brother boxed in our back garden with some gloves an uncle gave us. :thinking:

You and your brother slapping each other silly is not boxing. All three of them have boxed in the amateurs with a trainer, or have boxed in the army. You got caught in a lie just own up to it...

Nick Name
06-18-2010, 07:29 AM
Hi, I am new to the forum. I am a 27 year old trained amateur boxer, I've been training for 5 years and I was supposed to have my debut in March but I broke my hand. I will fight this next November if God wants, and let's hope it'll be alright :fingersx:

Anyway. At a first glance this list looks to me just like the "Rolling Stone's" list of 100 best guitarists of all times: number one is out of discussion (Hendrix/Robinson), the rest is pure snobby, high-hat, self-indulgent crap: he put Emile Griffith on 29 probably just out of simpathy because of his declared homosexuality... But Griffith is a guy who lost to all the greats he ever faced... And he left out Nino Benvenuti (hall of famer who beat Griffith twice while they were both in their prime).
He also shows not to have sympathy for British boxing: there are some Brit guys who could be in that list (Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Nigel Benn are the ones that come to my mind).
He left out the great Duilio Loi, and such a legend as Nicolino "Untouchable" Locche (must watch if you still haven't). And why not also De La Hoya deserved a place in that list.

They say that Bert Sugar knows his stuff: well, if his stuff is about cigars and straw hats, well yes he could know everything about it. :) Boxing? Better leave it to boxers...

I admit I don't know a few fighters from that list, but I bet that Sugar never took a single punch in his whole life.

NChristo
06-18-2010, 07:36 AM
Hi, I am new to the forum. I am a 27 year old trained amateur boxer, I've been training for 5 years and I was supposed to have my debut in March but I broke my hand. I will fight this next November if God wants, and let's hope it'll be alright :fingersx: :boxing:



First welcome to the forum and good luck with your career, I'm an AM boxer also but shattered my collar bone in January and have to wait until mid June for it to fully recover (apparently) before I can start again, why I started posting here.


Bert Sugar does know his stuff, no doubt, but his lists have always been kind of rubbish, opinionated where he rates the old timers and those he has grew up watching over others.
Thing that stuck out to me most after going through the list again is why the hell is Bob Fitzsimmons so low, I'd think even Bert would know to have him higher then 66.

SBleeder
06-18-2010, 10:48 AM
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. Dick Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

Nick Name
06-18-2010, 08:45 PM
First welcome to the forum and good luck with your career, I'm an AM boxer also but shattered my collar bone in January and have to wait until mid June for it to fully recover (apparently) before I can start again, why I started posting here.


Bert Sugar does know his stuff, no doubt, but his lists have always been kind of rubbish, opinionated where he rates the old timers and those he has grew up watching over others.
Thing that stuck out to me most after going through the list again is why the hell is Bob Fitzsimmons so low, I'd think even Bert would know to have him higher then 66.

NChristo: thanks for the welcome, and I make my best wishes for your recovery. I was supposed to make my debut in march but I broke my hand, and I'll have to wait til November to have a bout.

I didn't mean disrespect over mr. Sugar, he's a good historian but a bookworm could never know more than a bit about boxing... I am not a historian of boxing myself but I suspect that some of the names (like Emile Griffith at no. 29 or Ad Wolgast) are made more out of sympathy than for their real value. It is a very romantic list. :)
Anyway it's an interesting argument of discussion. So here's my personally reviewed list, as demanded by the topic:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson (as I said, just like Jimi Hendrix: no question about it)
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. Dick Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

Should be on the list: Lennox Lewis, Nicolino Locche, Nino Benvenuti, Duilio Loi, Oscar De La Hoya. Maybe also Floyd Patterson.

Ziggy Stardust
06-18-2010, 09:51 PM
I didn't mean disrespect over mr. Sugar, he's a good historian but a bookworm could never know more than a bit about boxing...

That's rather like saying construction workers know more about engineering than architects do :rolleyes9:

Poet

One more round
06-18-2010, 09:58 PM
Has Sugar ever even been in the gym or ring himself? There is only so much you can know about the sport without actually doing it imo.

r.burgundy
06-19-2010, 03:31 AM
Has Sugar ever even been in the gym or ring himself? There is only so much you can know about the sport without actually doing it imo.

bert sugar is a known troll.i think he posts in this section

Vadrigar.
06-19-2010, 03:32 AM
bert sugar is a known troll.i think he posts in this section

You're a troll. Simple as.

Nick Name
06-21-2010, 03:31 PM
That's rather like saying construction workers know more about engineering than architects do :rolleyes9:

Poet

Lol, I don't know if I actually got the exact meaning of your witty metaphor, sir.

Anyway what I meant is that construction workers know more about construction working than architects do. :)

Thread Stealer
06-21-2010, 07:21 PM
I didn't mean disrespect over mr. Sugar, he's a good historian but a bookworm could never know more than a bit about boxing... I am not a historian of boxing myself but I suspect that some of the names (like Emile Griffith at no. 29 or Ad Wolgast) are made more out of sympathy than for their real value. It is a very romantic list. :)


A bookworm can know a ton about the history of the sport, maybe not the technical aspects of how to fight, but historical things are different.

A boxer may spend hours in the gym busting his ass off so he may not have the time to read and research all these old newspaper articles, or a baseball player is too busy training and practicing hitting breaking balls, while Bert is just reading about both of these sports.

Griffith was a hell of a fighter. Just look at the opposition he faced and defeated.

Nick Name
06-21-2010, 08:44 PM
A bookworm can know a ton about the history of the sport, maybe not the technical aspects of how to fight, but historical things are different.

A boxer may spend hours in the gym busting his ass off so he may not have the time to read and research all these old newspaper articles, or a baseball player is too busy training and practicing hitting breaking balls, while Bert is just reading about both of these sports.

Griffith was a hell of a fighter. Just look at the opposition he faced and defeated.

He WAS one hell of a fighter. I don't intend to take anything from him. But why putting him so high (at 29, while Napoles is at 33 and Carlos Monzon is at 55...), and not putting Nino Benvenuti who beat him twice in his prime? That doesn't make sense. Or instead, it makes a sense: mr. Sugar has a sympathy for Griffith. And I have nothing against that, I have sympathy for him to: he had a harsh life, he was a black homosexual in the 50s... He killed a guy into the ring... Now he's poor and old with an adopted son... Alright, but then he should have titled the list "Bert Sugar's favorite boxers" or "the top 100 most sympathetic boxers of all times" (Ali would come 1st and Tyson 2nd in that list :) ).

This is my point: it's not up to a historian to state the value of a fighter.
If Freddie Roach, or Manny Steward or Roger Mayweather for example, would publish a similar list (not that they have time to waste on such things), I would consider it a lot. Because they are in the real business, they know how boxing work, and better than anyone.
But a list like that made by Bert Sugar, is not much more worth than a list made by you or me. In fact it's full of sentimentalities. :)

Ziggy Stardust
06-21-2010, 08:51 PM
This is my point: it's not up to a historian to state the value of a fighter. If Freddie Roach, or Manny Steward or Roger Mayweather for example, would publish a similar list (not that they have time to waste on such things), I would consider it a lot. Because they are in the real business, they know how boxing work, and better than anyone.
But a list like that made by Bert Sugar, is not much more worth than a list made by you or me. In fact it's full of sentimentalities. :)

Oh I can hear now: "Dumb jocks of the world unite! The braniacs you cheated off of in math class are rating you!" :rolleyes9:

Poet

Nick Name
06-21-2010, 09:02 PM
Oh I can hear now: "Dumb jocks of the world unite! The braniacs you cheated off of in math class are rating you!" :rolleyes9:

Poet

The end is near, redeem yourself.

deanrw
06-22-2010, 01:54 AM
You have to take these lists with a grain of salt. Every list ever made was heavily influenced by the authors likes and dislikes. None are truly factual. If they were, no greatest list would ever be made as it is impossible to rank fighters from different eras against each other with any degree of accuracy.

Whether he based his list on Talent, Achievements or a combo of both, can be picked apart very easily.

Fact is Bert's list really sucks, but everyone's list does. Just seeing Mike McCallum missing from the list is good enough for me. In his prime he would have given any fighter in history around his weight class more than they wanted. That of course is my own opinion and I am sure many of you would disagree.

Nick Name
06-22-2010, 11:11 AM
Well said Deanrw, and I am no troll, I respect other people's opinion altho in this case I'll stick to mine, for what it's worth.

And to give my "counterpunch", here's a much more respectable top 100 list, the one from boxrec, which is based on a system of points. That's much more useful for to state the ACTUAL value of a fighter. It's not the Gospel of course (it puts Archie Moore over Robinson, which is questionable), but it is a reasonable list, unlike Sugar's :) : it tells the boxer's name, points, record, years of activity and birthplace.
And not casually, Monzon is rated higher than Griffith, and Floyd Patterson is there, Nino Benvenuti is there, Duilio Loi, Lennox Lewis, Oscar De La Hoya are there.
Of course because of the points system, there are some inconsistencies, like the presence of fighters like Azumah Nelson... But overall, it is a more reliable list than Sugar's in my opinion.


1 Archie Moore 2612 185(131)-23(7)-11 1935-1963 Benoit, Mississippi, United States
2 Sugar Ray Robinson 2349 173(108)-19(1)-6 1940-1965 Harlem, New York, United States
3 Muhammad Ali 1927 56(37)-5(1)-0 1960-1981 Louisville, Kentucky, United States
4 Joe Louis 1677 66(52)-3(2)-0 1934-1951 Detroit, Michigan, United States
5 Tony Canzoneri 1670 137(44)-24(1)-10 1925-1939 New York, New York, United States
6 Carlos Ortiz 1593 61(30)-7(1)-1 1955-1972 New York, New York, United States
7 Carlos Monzon 1534 87(59)-3(0)-9 1963-1977 Santa Fe, Argentina
8 Dick Tiger 1467 60(27)-19(2)-3 1952-1970 Amaigbo, Nigeria
9 Harry Greb 1464 104(48)-8(2)-3 1913-1926 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States
10 Ezzard Charles 1440 93(52)-25(7)-1 1940-1959 Cincinnati, Ohio, United States
11 Jimmy McLarnin 1410 54(21)-11(1)-3 1923-1936 Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
12 Sam Langford 1382 181(127)-33(9)-38 1902-1926 Boston, Massachusetts, United States
13 Benny Leonard 1347 91(71)-5(4)-1 1911-1932 New York, New York, United States
14 Emile Griffith 1336 85(23)-24(2)-2 1958-1977 New York, New York, United States
15 Young Corbett III 1320 124(32)-12(4)-22 1919-1940 Fresno, California, United States
16 Jimmy Bivins 1316 86(31)-25(5)-1 1940-1955 Cleveland, Ohio, United States
17 Mickey Walker 1313 94(60)-19(6)-4 1919-1935 Elizabeth, New Jersey, United States
18 Jose Napoles 1304 81(55)-7(4)-0 1958-1975 Juarez, Nuevo León, Mexico
19 Jack Britton 1300 107(30)-28(1)-21 1905-1930 Clinton, New York, United States
20 Floyd Patterson 1294 55(40)-8(5)-1 1952-1972 Brooklyn, New York, United States
21 Henry Armstrong 1258 149(101)-21(2)-10 1931-1945 Los Angeles, California, United States
22 Joe Gans 1248 138(96)-10(5)-15 1893-1909 Baltimore, Maryland, United States
23 Marvin Hagler 1242 62(52)-3(0)-2 1973-1987 Brockton, Massachusetts, United States
24 Willie Pep 1234 229(65)-11(6)-1 1940-1966 Rocky Hill, Connecticut, United States
25 Harry Wills 1234 68(54)-9(5)-3 1911-1932 New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
26 Rocky Marciano 1218 49(43)-0(0)-0 1947-1955 Brockton, Massachusetts, United States
27 Roberto Duran 1199 103(70)-16(4)-0 1968-2001 Panama City, Panama
28 Bobo Olson 1169 97(47)-16(7)-2 1944-1966 Honolulu, Hawaii, United States
29 Sammy Angott 1168 94(22)-29(1)-8 1935-1950 Cleveland, Ohio, United States
30 Ike Williams 1146 126(60)-24(6)-5 1940-1955 Trenton, New Jersey, United States
31 Kid Gavilan 1140 108(28)-30(0)-5 1943-1958 Havana, Cuba
32 Tommy Loughran 1135 94(17)-24(3)-10 1919-1937 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
33 Oscar De La Hoya 1131 39(30)-6(2)-0 1992-2008 Los Angeles, California, United States
34 Gene Fullmer 1127 55(24)-6(2)-3 1951-1963 West Jordan, Utah, United States
35 Gene Tunney 1122 66(48)-1(0)-1 1915-1928 Greenwich, Connecticut, United States
36 Maxie Rosenbloom 1120 207(19)-39(2)-26 1923-1939 New York, New York, United States
37 Joey Giardello 1113 101(33)-26(4)-7 1948-1967 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
38 Bob Montgomery 1109 75(37)-19(3)-3 1938-1950 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
39 Max Schmeling 1102 56(40)-10(5)-4 1924-1948 Brandenburg, Germany
40 Larry Holmes 1097 69(44)-6(1)-0 1973-2002 Easton, Pennsylvania, United States
41 Billy Conn 1097 64(15)-12(3)-1 1934-1948 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States
42 Johnny Dundee 1096 88(22)-32(2)-20 1910-1932 New York, New York, United States
43 Jack Johnson 1092 55(36)-12(6)-7 1897-1932 Raleigh, North Carolina, United States
44 Tommy Ryan 1059 85(71)-4(1)-11 1887-1907 Van Nuys, California, United States
45 Lew Tendler 1048 60(39)-11(1)-2 1913-1928 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
46 Julio Cesar Chavez 1047 107(86)-6(4)-2 1980-2005 Culiacan, Sinaloa, Mexico
47 Carmen Basilio 1023 56(27)-16(2)-7 1948-1961 Canastota, New York, United States
48 Fred Apostoli 1011 61(31)-10(4)-1 1934-1948 San Francisco, California, United States
49 Lou Ambers 1004 91(28)-8(2)-7 1932-1941 Herkimer, New York, United States
50 Sugar Ray Leonard 1003 36(25)-3(1)-1 1977-1997 Palmer Park, Maryland, United States
51 Thomas Hearns 996 61(48)-5(4)-1 1977-2006 Michigan, United States
52 Bob Foster 992 56(46)-8(6)-1 1961-1978 New Mexico, United States
53 Lennox Lewis 992 41(32)-2(2)-1 1989-2003 United Kingdom
54 Duilio Loi 990 115(26)-3(0)-8 1948-1962 Milan, Italy
55 Harold Johnson 982 76(32)-11(5)-0 1946-1971 Pennsylvania, United States
56 Pernell Whitaker 977 40(17)-4(1)-1 1984-2001 Virginia, United States
57 Dave Shade 975 131(17)-27(2)-59 1918-1935 Massachusetts, United States
58 Joey Maxim 972 82(21)-29(1)-4 1941-1958 Ohio, United States
59 John Henry Lewis 970 97(57)-10(1)-4 1930-1939 Arizona, United States
60 Barney Ross 964 72(22)-4(0)-3 1929-1938 Illinois, United States
61 Joe Frazier 959 32(27)-4(3)-1 1965-1981 Pennsylvania, United States
62 Eder Jofre 957 72(50)-2(0)-4 1957-1976 Sao Paulo, Brazil
63 Abe Attell 950 72(39)-11(5)-18 1900-1917 San Francisco, California, United States
64 Vicente Saldivar 941 37(26)-3(2)-0 1961-1973 Distrito Federal, Mexico
65 Luis Manuel Rodriguez 928 107(49)-13(3)-0 1956-1972 Florida, United States
66 Jake LaMotta 925 83(30)-19(4)-4 1941-1954 New York, United States
67 Philadelphia Jack O'Brien 921 92(55)-7(4) 1896-1912 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
68 Azumah Nelson 911 39(28)-6(1)-2 1979-2008 Ghana
69 Sammy Mandell 908 83(31)-21(6)-9 1920-1934 Rockford, Illinois, United States
70 Jack Sharkey 896 37(13)-13(4)-3 1924-1936 Massachusetts, United States
71 Michael Spinks 896 31(21)-1(1)-0 1977-1988 Missouri, United States
72 Joe Brown 896 116(53)-47(11)-13 1941-1970 Louisiana, United States
73 Ismael Laguna 894 65(37)-9(0)-1 1960-1971 Panama
74 Panama Al Brown 893 132(62)-19(0)-12 1922-1942 , France
75 Beau Jack 886 89(44)-24(4)-5 1939-1955 Georgia, United States
76 Sonny Liston 877 50(39)-4(3)-0 1953-1970 Missouri, United States
77 Fidel LaBarba 875 67(15)-15(0)-6 1924-1933 California, United States
78 Sandy Saddler 872 144(103)-16(1)-2 1944-1956 Massachusetts, United States
79 Ted (Kid) Lewis 858 193(80)-29(5)-13 1909-1929 United Kingdom
80 Fighting Harada 854 55(22)-7(2)-0 1960-1970 Japan
81 Nino Benvenuti 852 82(35)-7(3)-1 1961-1971 Trieste, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Italy
82 Jersey Joe Walcott 849 51(32)-18(6)-2 1930-1953 New Jersey, United States
83 Jimmy Carter 847 81(32)-31(3)-9 1946-1960 Bronx, NY United States
84 Joe Jeannette 847 81(68)-10(2)-10 1904-1922 New Jersey, United States
85 Del Flanagan 845 105(38)-22(7)-2 1947-1964 Minnesota, United States
86 Johnny Kilbane 839 48(25)-5(3)-7 1907-1923 United States
87 Pete Latzo 839 62(24)-27(2)-3 1919-1934 United States
88 Marco Antonio Barrera 839 65(43)-7(1)-0 1989-2009 Mexico
89 Kid Chocolate 836 135(51)-10(2)-6 1927-1938 Cuba
90 Freddie Welsh 836 74(33)-5(1)-7 1905-1922 United States
91 Battling Levinsky 831 71(31)-19(4)-14 1910-1930 United States
92 Lou Brouillard 831 109(67)-29(1)-2 1928-1940 United States
93 Fritzie Zivic 828 157(82)-65(4)-9 1931-1949 United States
94 Holman Williams 827 146(36)-30(3)-11 1932-1948 United States
95 Alexis Arguello 824 82(65)-8(4)-0 1968-1995 Nicaragua
96 Tommy Gibbons 823 57(48)-4(1)-1 1911-1925 United States
97 Joe Walcott 814 94(59)-25(9)-25 1890-1911 United States
98 Louis Kaplan 805 109(29)-21(3)-13 1918-1933 United States
99 Kid Williams 802 107(57)-17(4)-8 1909-1929 United States
100 Marcel Thil 801 113(53)-23(4)-13 1920-1937 Cannes, Alpes-Maritimes, France

BennyST
06-26-2010, 12:30 AM
if Bert was to put Lennox in he may as well put Danny Williams & Kevin McBride in because they beat Tyson when he was years past his best just like Lewis did, infact they both beat him easier than what Lewis did.. Lewis was unfortunate to only get a draw with a old Holyfield but Evander was robbed in their return fight, Lewis got KOd by a couple of journeymen fighters and beat a bunch of hand-picked Class C fighters, so Bert rightly gives Lennox zero credit for beating ATG legends Holyfield & Tyson


:stooges:





101010

BennyST
06-26-2010, 12:35 AM
bert sugar is a known troll.i think he posts in this section

:lol1:

That was actually quite funny.

BennyST
06-26-2010, 12:39 AM
I'm pretty sure that Futch boxed, he said he often sparred with the great Joe Louis, not sure about Glancy or Arcel. I'd be somewhat surprised if they didn't.

One can't deny Bert Sugar's contributions to the sport but I'm not so sure about how knowledgeable he truly is. Not only about boxing itself but its history. His writings and speeches are often inaccurate and he doesn't even seem to care whether he is being factual or not, considering that he keeps repeating myths that have long since been proven wrong.

He is a good writer however and tells a story better than most people could and he did do great work with the Ring Magazine.

Yeah, I think he likes to keep the mythology and storytelling part of boxing's folklore. Makes it more interesting to some.

That happens in anything though. Buddy Rich is considered the greatest drummer ever and supposedly is faster than anyone has ever been and he never practiced a day in his life.

It's sounds cool, but is complete bollocks in truth. He practiced more in one day than most do in a week and was doing so since he was three. He was also not the fastest but it's still a great story.

Mannie Phresh
06-26-2010, 12:40 AM
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bert flip flops to appease the masses he is not credible.

lianpeng
06-26-2010, 02:52 AM
i have checked it’s really great

Nick Name
06-26-2010, 04:31 AM
if Bert was to put Lennox in he may as well put Danny Williams & Kevin McBride in because they beat Tyson when he was years past his best just like Lewis did, infact they both beat him easier than what Lewis did.. Lewis was unfortunate to only get a draw with a old Holyfield but Evander was robbed in their return fight, Lewis got KOd by a couple of journeymen fighters and beat a bunch of hand-picked Class C fighters, so Bert rightly gives Lennox zero credit for beating ATG legends Holyfield & Tyson

101010

Not many people know that when they were both about 15-16 years old, Lennox did some sparring sessions with Tyson, and Lennox owned him! http://planetsmilies.net/smoking-smiley-5436.gif

Vadrigar.
06-27-2010, 06:17 AM
Bert Sugar, notorious Ali downgrader exposed:

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"Bert***65279; Sugar is like a politician, always flip floping"

Bright-Eyes
06-28-2010, 04:31 PM
It's his opinion but I don't even have Dempsey in my ATG top ten heavyweight list.

The Iron Man
06-28-2010, 06:57 PM
Not many people know that when they were both about 15-16 years old, Lennox did some sparring sessions with Tyson, and Lennox owned him! http://planetsmilies.net/smoking-smiley-5436.gif

That's just not true.

I've heard two accounts of the sparring:

1. By the first trainer of Lewis (forgot his name) Say Tyson was like and animal and all over Lewis for the first day. He asked Lewis is he wanted to just go home because he was getting hurt. Lewis apparently denied and went back to spar the next couple of days and gave as good as he took. I can quote Lewis on saying to himself after the sessions that he "hoped he didn't meet tyson again when they turned pro because he was an animal"


2. Team Tyson before their fight said Tyson knocked Lewis out the ring during sparring and beat him soundly. (This is less believable)

Bright-Eyes
06-29-2010, 03:25 AM
1. By the first trainer of Lewis (forgot his name) Say Tyson was like and animal and all over Lewis for the first day. He asked Lewis is he wanted to just go home because he was getting hurt. Lewis apparently denied and went back to spar the next couple of days and gave as good as he took. I can quote Lewis on saying to himself after the sessions that he "hoped he didn't meet tyson again when they turned pro because he was an animal"





They said that during the beyond the glory episode they did on Lewis a few years ago.They had claimed that Lewis had him "frustrated and under control" after a couple of days sparring.



Trainers name is Arnie Boehm

SouthPawHitman
07-04-2013, 02:42 PM
I disagree with Berts list. Carlos Monzon at 55 is to low. Carmen at 57 is to low.

Emile Griffith at 29 is to high. Carlos beat him 2x.

Now im a big JCC Sr. fan, but 17 is a bit high. 20-25 is where I would put him.

I have always rated Gene Tunney very high. I think he is criminally underrated.

rightsideup
07-04-2013, 06:38 PM
I disagree with Berts list. Carlos Monzon at 55 is to low. Carmen at 57 is to low.

Emile Griffith at 29 is to high. JCC Sr. Carlos beat him 2x.

Now im a big JCC Sr. fan, but 17 is a bit high. 20-25 is where I would put him.

I have always rated Gene Tunney very high. I think he is criminally underrated.very good comments!!!

KO'er
07-04-2013, 07:13 PM
Ali should be number one.

Beat the supposedly invincible Sonny Liston, who was considered by many the best HW ever before Ali/Clay beat him. He thoroughly outclassed Patterson, the former champ. He cleaned out the top 10 before he got banned from boxing.

He then came back, beat Foreman, Frazier two times. IMO he beat Kenny Norton 2 times, plus he beat the likes or Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers who would have been big hitters in any other era. (plus just outside the very elite in this golden age of heavyweight boxing.)

JAB5239
07-04-2013, 09:17 PM
Ali should be number one.

Beat the supposedly invincible Sonny Liston, who was considered by many the best HW ever before Ali/Clay beat him. He thoroughly outclassed Patterson, the former champ. He cleaned out the top 10 before he got banned from boxing.

He then came back, beat Foreman, Frazier two times. IMO he beat Kenny Norton 2 times, plus he beat the likes or Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers who would have been big hitters in any other era. (plus just outside the very elite in this golden age of heavyweight boxing.)

Just out of curiosity, who ranked Liston the best heavyweight ever before Ali beat him? I've just never heard that before.

Rspen46
07-04-2013, 11:55 PM
Bert Sugar knows his Boxing as well as anyone, but just like any other person, he has his own personal opinions that creep into his own rankings, as I am sure he places some personal favorites above others that he knows he should not do, but for whatever reason, he may not like another fighter, so he moves his favorites higher, it doesnt matter that he knows so much, he is still only human & his list of 100 can't 100% be taken at 100% because it's tainted to a certain degree, as I would my list based on my knowledge, I would put small handful of favorites above others that many would not agree with, but it could be, because I like them better than another fighter, that's only human. so I take Bert's list to a certain degree & use it with others & my own knowledge & research & come up with my own list, he really likes Aaron Pryor, I know from reading a lot about Bert & seeing him interviewed at Pryor fights, but as I've stated 100x in many other posts, put on a great show in his bouts, but he fought no one, he beat an aging Cervantes at the end of his career, his trainer Panama Lewis cheated Arguello, who was on his 4th move up in weight & nearing the end of his great career, so really who did Pryor beat, he passed on the JWW #1 contender in Saoul Mamby, he never fought anyone with real power, that's why they took him out of the LW division without ever having a single fight, & they took him an empty, weak JWW division, because the LW was loaded at the time, so Pryor does not deserve to be on the list, & I think Bert truly knows this, he is just partial to Pryor for his own reasons, that's how guys that don't deserve to be on a an All time great list make, no matter who is doing the list.

Rspen46
07-04-2013, 11:57 PM
Patterson had a very fast 1 punch attack, but 2 handed speed, he does not deserve to be ranked #1
Ali was faster, probably Louis, Tyson, & some others, Corbett from what I've read was very fast for his time, J. Johnson, L. Holmes, H. Hide, G.Page, L. Donald, E. Charles.

Just to name a few.

SouthPawHitman
07-05-2013, 12:27 PM
very good comments!!!

Haha Thanks!

Ray Corso
07-05-2013, 01:18 PM
Theres number One...Sugar Ray Robinson...then the rest!!!!..........




..as to Lennox Sparrig with Mike, he did poorly the first day and was bullied around the ring and tentitive. He did comeback the next day and hold his own and then axctually tok control of the session. The session were not controlled much and were what we called "open sessions"!!!!
I think the the boys were 16 yrs old and just entering "open Class" amatuer status!!
I can tell you that Cus and Teddy didn't think meeting Lennox down the road would be easy!!!! In fact if I remember correctly Lennox didn't stay the time set aside for working with Tyson and everyone was OK with it!!!!
Seems like it wasn't that long ago but I guess it was, I had just finished watching over Mike & Teddy for Cus and that may have been my last visit to the old man in the Catskills at the farm! I liked Cus very much!! Ray.

Bodyshot3
07-05-2013, 04:34 PM
Good list from a top guy but some weird middleweight rankings and leave outs in there....

......Monzon and Hagler rated some distance beneath Cerdan and Lamotta, not sure about those calls at all.

No Randy Turpin either...surely you must break into the 100 if you beat the best fighter of all time for the title? Seems Nino Benvenuti gets hard done by as well...always seems to get under-rated for some reason.

Anthony342
07-05-2013, 07:50 PM
Wasn't this Sugar list also published in a book he wrote, not just in a magazine? I seem to remember him promoting this on local sports talk radio when this was coming out.

Pugilist King
07-07-2013, 10:23 PM
how is ricardo lopez so low ?

he was an unstoppable champion

Trixly
08-27-2014, 11:50 PM
I agree with SRR as #1. However, SRL and RJJ should be in the Top 10. SRL is probably the second best WW behind SRR. RJJ in his prime was unbeatable. Also Manny Pacquiao should be in the Top 20 because of his accomplishments (8 titles in 8 weight classes).

Wuckoo
08-28-2014, 05:34 AM
I think this is quite an old list. It's been around for years so I think it was never updated to consider more recent boxers. That said I'm having a hard time understanding some of his rankings. But we all know very favoured guys around his time so I can't blame him. Let's be honest we tend to highly rate guys around our own time very highly too

-Weltschmerz-
08-28-2014, 08:33 AM
bert stupid sugar sucks donkey dick. he thought primo carnera the italian circus clown would beat Vladimir. what a retard.

Daddy T
08-28-2014, 12:00 PM
bert was ridiculously biased towards old time fighters. For instance Dick Tiger - 63 ... RJJ - 88
Gene Tunney - 13 ... Evander holyfield - 42

Billy Conn - 35 ... Michael Spinks not even in top 100

John L Sullivan - 54 ... lennox lewis doesn't make top 100
etc etc etc

Ray Corso
08-28-2014, 12:51 PM
I think the original list was formed in 1983!!!! it was updated around 2003!!!
So you Mayweather and Klitz bros fan a tics should relax especially off the original list.
Ray.

MartinC
08-28-2014, 01:40 PM
Sugar covered boxing for a zillion years. He probably had reasons for ranking some of them that most of us newbies cannot comprehend.

soul_survivor
08-28-2014, 01:44 PM
Wasn't this Sugar list also published in a book he wrote, not just in a magazine? I seem to remember him promoting this on local sports talk radio when this was coming out.

Correct

bert was ridiculously biased towards old time fighters. For instance Dick Tiger - 63 ... RJJ - 88
Gene Tunney - 13 ... Evander holyfield - 42

Billy Conn - 35 ... Michael Spinks not even in top 100

John L Sullivan - 54 ... lennox lewis doesn't make top 100
etc etc etc

I know, some of those rankings are way off in MY opinion, and that's the point, these lists, no matter how objective will always reflect our opinions

forget
08-28-2014, 02:06 PM
bert stupid sugar sucks donkey dick. he thought primo carnera the italian circus clown would beat Vladimir. what a retard.

Of course Carnera could beat him, what do you mean.

Sugar Adam Ali
08-28-2014, 04:10 PM
Bert Sugar never let facts get in the way of a good story..

rightsideup
08-28-2014, 04:44 PM
I think the original list was formed in 1983!!!! it was updated around 2003!!!
So you Mayweather and Klitz bros fan a tics should relax especially off the original list.
Ray.I am sure if he was alive today his latest version would have some updates.

greeh
09-01-2014, 01:13 PM
how is ricardo lopez so low ?

he was an unstoppable champion

:rofl2: …….