View Full Version : Roy Jones Jr Or Jake Lamotta?


Southpaw16BF
03-12-2010, 12:35 AM
Who do you think should be remembered as the greater fighter and why?

bojangles1987
03-12-2010, 07:20 AM
Jones Jr. is clearly the better fighter but LaMotta did more, and will rank higher for most.

The Beatles
03-12-2010, 07:23 AM
Jones Jr. is clearly the better fighter but LaMotta did more, and will rank higher for most.
LaMotta did more??? what do you mean??? he was a 1 time Middle Weight Champ....Roy Jones accomplished more than Lamotta and thats fact

ManniePhresh
03-12-2010, 07:26 AM
i dont think jones greatness will appreciated til later on. i love watching lamotta just for iron chin. i think roy takes it on the goat list but lamotta will be ahead of him for a while until ppl realize how great rjj is.

The Beatles
03-12-2010, 07:30 AM
i dont think jones greatness will appreciated til later on. i love watching lamotta just for iron chin. i think roy takes it on the goat list but lamotta will be ahead of him for a while until ppl realize how great rjj is.
i get sick of everyone downplaying Roy Jones' achievements.....so-called historians rank Bob Fitzsimmons so high because he won the middleweight, heavyweight then light-heavyweight crown.....****e Roy did the same thing and gets no love....i don't understand the Roy hate

The_Demon
03-12-2010, 08:09 AM
jake lamotta

Jim Jeffries
03-12-2010, 12:12 PM
i get sick of everyone downplaying Roy Jones' achievements.....so-called historians rank Bob Fitzsimmons so high because he won the middleweight, heavyweight then light-heavyweight crown.....****e Roy did the same thing and gets no love....i don't understand the Roy hate

You do realize that there was only one title in Fitzsimmons day?

To accomplish the same thing, Roy would have at least had to fight Lennox Lewis instead of cherry picking Ruiz.

TheHolyCross
03-12-2010, 12:30 PM
You do realize that there was only one title in Fitzsimmons day?

To accomplish the same thing, Roy would have at least had to fight Lennox Lewis instead of cherry picking Ruiz.

peter maher wasn't anything special tho

i'd pick ruiz over maher and corbett

Alec900
03-12-2010, 01:15 PM
roy jones jr

Joey Giardello
03-12-2010, 01:38 PM
Lamotta is one of my favorite's but he was not as good or didnt do as much as roy jones, if both fighters would of met in there primes roy beats jake, but lamotta beats the middleweight version of roy who was ibf champion at the weight and was a bit a way from his prime years.

sonnyboyx2
03-12-2010, 01:49 PM
Jones Jr. would play with LaMotta and yes Jake had a good chin but i would favour Jones to put him on the deck

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 02:29 PM
Jones Jr. would play with LaMotta and yes Jake had a good chin but i would favour Jones to put him on the deck

Like how he decked Bernard Hopkins, Jorge Castro and Fermin Chirino at middleweight?

THE REED™
03-12-2010, 02:29 PM
Like how he decked Bernard Hopkins, Jorge Castro and Fermin Chirino at middleweight?

Hey hey! Watch it!

TheHolyCross
03-12-2010, 02:33 PM
Like how he decked Bernard Hopkins, Jorge Castro and Fermin Chirino at middleweight?

they didn't block with their faces tho did they?

AKATheMack
03-12-2010, 02:35 PM
Like how he decked Bernard Hopkins, Jorge Castro and Fermin Chirino at middleweight?

Did you just compare BHops defense and LaMottas? C'mon now. And Roy is by far the better fighter and will be remembered as such.

Joey Giardello
03-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Jones Jr. would play with LaMotta and yes Jake had a good chin but i would favour Jones to put him on the deck

In his prime big punches ray robinson, bob satterfield and lloyd marshall could not put jake down so i dont see roy jones being able to

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Hey hey! Watch it!

:nono:

Jones might be too much for LaMotta at 168-175 but I think LaMotta could give a young Roy some rough moments at 160. If only we had footage of him fighting a young Sugar Ray Robinson in the 1940's, instead of the aging LaMotta that was having great trouble making the weight in the 1950's.

Joey Giardello
03-12-2010, 02:38 PM
they didn't block with their faces tho did they?

if you have actually ever watched lamotta you might notice that he had very under rated defence, he would roll and slip alot of punches

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 02:39 PM
Did you just compare BHops defense and LaMottas? C'mon now. And Roy is by far the better fighter and will be remembered as such.

Because Hopkins was such a great defensive artist in the early 1990's? He went in face first and slugged, although he was much more cautious against Jones.

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LaMotta did certainly have better defense than Jorge Castro who was a human punching bag yet went the distance with Roy Jones.

THE REED™
03-12-2010, 02:42 PM
TheGreatA taking shots at Roy now... Im deleting my appreciation thread :nonono:

Southpaw16BF
03-12-2010, 02:43 PM
You do not diss Jake Lamotta, when The Great A is around! :boxing::lol1:

THE REED™
03-12-2010, 02:43 PM
You do not diss Jake Lamotta, when The Great A is around! :boxing::lol1:

You dont diss RJ when The Reed is around :boxing:

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 02:44 PM
they didn't block with their faces tho did they?

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Southpaw16BF
03-12-2010, 02:50 PM
You dont diss RJ when The Reed is around :boxing:

:lol1: :lol1:

You also don't diss, Carlos Monzon when Joey Giardello is around! :lol1:

Toney616
03-12-2010, 02:50 PM
jake lamotta
What were Lamotto's achievements?

Snopkins
03-12-2010, 02:54 PM
Because Hopkins was such a great defensive artist in the early 1990's? He went in face first and slugged, although he was much more cautious against Jones.

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LaMotta did certainly have better defense than Jorge Castro who was a human punching bag yet went the distance with Roy Jones.




Hopkins was never a slugger.He wasn't as crafty as he later became,but he was never a brawler.


Hopkins put on one of his greatest ever performances against Mercado in the rematch.Mercado couldn't touch Hopkins but got touched plenty with right hands.



Everyone knows Castro has a great chin.

AKATheMack
03-12-2010, 02:59 PM
Because Hopkins was such a great defensive artist in the early 1990's? He went in face first and slugged, although he was much more cautious against Jones.

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LaMotta did certainly have better defense than Jorge Castro who was a human punching bag yet went the distance with Roy Jones.

Any of Hopkins fights other than the one with Roy are irrelevant in this discussion. I can understand why you took my post the way you did, but Roy would have more opportunities of landing big shots on LaMotta than he did on BHop. I don't feel Roy could put down LaMotta either instead I see a UD win, I just feel your post would have been better had you omitted BHop from your list of fighters.

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 03:00 PM
Hopkins was never a slugger.He wasn't as crafty as he later became,but he was never a brawler.


Hopkins put on one of his greatest ever performances against Mercado in the rematch.Mercado couldn't touch Hopkins but got touched plenty with right hands.

He was a slugger. I'm not saying that he couldn't box, but he did slug early on in his career. In some fights he would be more cautious, like the Roy Jones fight, but in some fights he was simply a slugger. He was far from the crafty defensive fighter that he later became. I'd say that the first and second Mercado fights were the turning point of his career.

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Everyone knows Castro has a great chin.

And everyone knows LaMotta's chin was glass, right? The point is, if Roy didn't deck Castro at middleweight then the chances of him decking a prime LaMotta are slim.

Joey Giardello
03-12-2010, 03:02 PM
What were Lamotto's achievements?

He took the unbeaten record of the greatest fighter of all time in ray robinson, was rated the number 1 middleweight for years but couldnt get a title shot, a king without a crown the ring magazine use to call him, even when he was still just past his prime he had enough left to stop french harman and all time great himself marcel cerden to finally become middleweight champion.

Toney616
03-12-2010, 03:10 PM
He took the unbeaten record of the greatest fighter of all time in ray robinson, was rated the number 1 middleweight for years but couldnt get a title shot, a king without a crown the ring magazine use to call him, even when he was still just past his prime he had enough left to stop french harman and all time great himself marcel cerden to finally become middleweight champion.
Thanks for replying. I havent seen any of his fights. Which ones would you recommend?

AKATheMack
03-12-2010, 03:13 PM
He took the unbeaten record of the greatest fighter of all time in ray robinson, was rated the number 1 middleweight for years but couldnt get a title shot, a king without a crown the ring magazine use to call him, even when he was still just past his prime he had enough left to stop french harman and all time great himself marcel cerden to finally become middleweight champion.

Sounds just a little better than the career of Antonio Tarver.

Joey Giardello
03-12-2010, 03:14 PM
Thanks for replying. I havent seen any of his fights. Which ones would you recommend?

The fight against marcel cerden were he wins the title or his rematch against irish bob murphy are good fights, but there really isnt much footage of him in his prime years

mikeyh1015
03-12-2010, 03:18 PM
Prime RJJ RIVALS GODS. LOL @ people who compare any old school fighter to RJJ in his Prime. We know you guys have boxing knowledge but accept it already RJJ = GOAT

Toney616
03-12-2010, 03:22 PM
Prime RJJ RIVALS GODS. LOL @ people who compare any old school fighter to RJJ in his Prime. We know you guys have boxing knowledge but accept it already RJJ = GOAT
I wouldnt go that far, he was good no doubt, but not the greatest of all time.

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 03:42 PM
Sounds just a little better than the career of Antonio Tarver.

Tarver was good enough to beat Roy Jones, wasn't he? Yes, we all know he was washed up, weight-drained.
There is no comparison between the careers of Jake LaMotta and Antonio Tarver. LaMotta is one of the top 10 greatest middleweights of all time in my opinion while Tarver probably doesn't make my top 20 greatest light heavyweights.

Southpaw16BF
03-12-2010, 03:48 PM
Tarver was good enough to beat Roy Jones, wasn't he? Yes, we all know he was washed up, weight-drained.
There is no comparison between the careers of Jake LaMotta and Antonio Tarver. LaMotta is one of the top 10 greatest middleweights of all time in my opinion while Tarver probably doesn't make my top 20 greatest light heavyweights.

I thought you don't have personal lists?:thinking:

THE REED™
03-12-2010, 03:55 PM
Great As gettin defensive... Youre all witnessing!

T3dBundy
03-12-2010, 04:07 PM
roys handspeed is just too much for la motta :D

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 04:12 PM
I thought you don't have personal lists?:thinking:

Pound for pound.

Southpaw16BF
03-12-2010, 04:16 PM
Pound for pound.

Post your Division by Division ratings up!

Oriachim
03-12-2010, 04:53 PM
La motta is over-rated, simple as that...

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 05:03 PM
La motta is over-rated, simple as that...

If only it was. But on the Boxing History section you'll have to elaborate.

Oriachim
03-12-2010, 05:12 PM
Well, i'm not trolling or anything but generally I believe he was high over-rated... why? because of his film "raging bull". He lost lots of fights, 19 fights? sure hes been through a lot of wars and crap but sugar ray for example in his first 160 fights lost only 1 fight. Jake La Mota won only one world title, and even then he was quite lucky to win the fight from what I got told, and he didn't even hold the title for to long. He was also over-rated because of his one victory from sugar ray, even though Jake lost most of the fights.

Oriachim
03-12-2010, 05:14 PM
Well, i'm not trolling or anything but generally I believe he was high over-rated... why? because of his film "raging bull". He lost lots of fights, 19 fights? sure hes been through a lot of wars and crap but sugar ray for example in his first 160 fights lost only 1 fight. Jake La Mota won only one world title, and even then he was quite lucky to win the fight from what I got told, and he didn't even hold the title for to long. He was also over-rated because of his one victory from sugar ray, even though Jake lost most of the fights.

His defence also let him down, sure he was better at slipping than Ricky Hatton but he needed some defence because he had almost no power. I agree Jake has an amazing chin.

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 05:26 PM
Well, i'm not trolling or anything but generally I believe he was high over-rated... why? because of his film "raging bull". He lost lots of fights, 19 fights? sure hes been through a lot of wars and crap but sugar ray for example in his first 160 fights lost only 1 fight. Jake La Mota won only one world title, and even then he was quite lucky to win the fight from what I got told, and he didn't even hold the title for to long. He was also over-rated because of his one victory from sugar ray, even though Jake lost most of the fights.

You do understand how difficult it was to get world title shots during the Second World War? The titles were frozen and LaMotta was also frozen out of the title picture by the mob, until he took a dive against Billy Fox. During his 1940's prime, LaMotta only lost to three men, Fritzie Zivic (whom he beat 3 out of 4), Sugar Ray Robinson (arguably the greatest of all time) and Lloyd Marshall, the number 1 ranked light heavyweight at the time.

LaMotta wasn't lucky to win the title in my opinion. Cerdan was injured but that was only after LaMotta had already battered him from pillar to post in the first round of the fight. The determined, well-trained Jake who fought Cerdan would have been tough to beat for any middleweight, he had been waiting for his title shot for 7 years, 7 years after being rated the number 1 middleweight contender in the world. The title holder Tony Zale had gone to the army at the time and when he came back from the war, elected to give the inferior Rocky Graziano a title shot instead of LaMotta.

LaMotta gave Robinson the hardest fights of his career and all of their early bouts were close, especially the third and fifth fights where Robinson was knocked down. Only in their sixth fight, where Robinson admitted that LaMotta was weight-drained and had slowed down, was he able to decisively beat LaMotta.

Cassius Liston
03-12-2010, 05:54 PM
Lets just stick to the question "Roy or Jake"...........
Roy because of the weights his unbelievable handspeed...his determination to carry on even when things are bleak....thats makes him great in my eyes...oh and For being a generally nice person...and the gold he got robbed in the 88 olympics

AKATheMack
03-12-2010, 05:56 PM
Tarver was good enough to beat Roy Jones, wasn't he? Yes, we all know he was washed up, weight-drained.
There is no comparison between the careers of Jake LaMotta and Antonio Tarver. LaMotta is one of the top 10 greatest middleweights of all time in my opinion while Tarver probably doesn't make my top 20 greatest light heavyweights.

I haven't seen enough footage of LaMotta to argue. From what I've seen of LaMotta is a tough as nails guy, with a great chin, who leaves his hands too low and leads with his head. I feel he was able to use his size to his advantage enough to beat SRR once in 6 fights. If you have more knowledge on the subject I'd be happy to hear it.

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 06:12 PM
I haven't seen enough footage of LaMotta to argue. From what I've seen of LaMotta is a tough as nails guy, with a great chin, who leaves his hands too low and leads with his head. I feel he was able to use his size to his advantage enough to beat SRR once in 6 fights. If you have more knowledge on the subject I'd be happy to hear it.

Physically he was one of the strongest middleweights, and during his prime was almost a tireless machine who would chase opponents down, work them to the body and overwhelm them. Technically he was sound, far from the face first fighter that he is made out to be, but he was an all-out aggressive fighter who was willing to absorb a few punches in order to land his own. He had an effective jab, good head movement, great inside fighter who put together combinations very well. The one criticism about him would be his rather flat feet but Robinson said he was quicker in the 1940's than in the footage that we have of him.

“I couldn’t match strength with LaMotta,” Robinson said afterward. “But he was slower than he had been six years earlier. That made him an easier target. My jab had puffed up his face and I had hit him with quite a few body shots. His punches had lost their zing.”

No one ever managed to hurt him at his peak, including Bob Satterfield who knocked out 220 lb heavyweights, but he could hurt his opponents despite his lack of KO's. LaMotta fought mostly against top 10 ranked opposition, rarely any "tomato cans", and thus lacked the "padding" on his record that many of today's fighters have. Any man who can knock down Ray Robinson and Tommy Yarosz has to be a pretty good puncher, not to mention the several top 10 rated contenders that he legitimately knocked out.

Trainer Gil Clancy states his opinion on Jake LaMotta:

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5:50

AKATheMack
03-12-2010, 06:21 PM
Physically he was one of the strongest middleweights, and during his prime was almost a tireless machine who would chase opponents down, work them to the body and overwhelm them. Technically he was sound, far from the face first fighter that he is made out to be, but he was an all-out aggressive fighter who was willing to absorb a few punches in order to land his own. He had an effective jab, good head movement, great inside fighter who put together combinations very well. The one criticism about him would be his rather flat feet but Robinson said he was quicker in the 1940's than in the footage that we have of him.

“I couldn’t match strength with LaMotta,” Robinson said afterward. “But he was slower than he had been six years earlier. That made him an easier target. My jab had puffed up his face and I had hit him with quite a few body shots. His punches had lost their zing.”

No one ever managed to hurt him at his peak, including Bob Satterfield who knocked out 220 lb heavyweights, but he could hurt his opponents despite his lack of KO's. LaMotta fought mostly against top 10 ranked opposition, rarely any "tomato cans", and thus lacked the "padding" on his record that many of today's fighters have. Any man who can knock down Ray Robinson and Tommy Yarosz has to be a pretty good puncher, not to mention the several top 10 rated contenders that he legitimately knocked out.

That's the only problem I have is that he was an extremely strong MW who happened to outmuscle a 145lb SRR only once. I don't doubt his greatness as I know I didnt see the best version of him, but I dont believe his one win over a much smaller SRR holds as much weight as I tend to hear.

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 06:34 PM
That's the only problem I have is that he was an extremely strong MW who happened to outmuscle a 145lb SRR only once. I don't doubt his greatness as I know I didnt see the best version of him, but I dont believe his one win over a much smaller SRR holds as much weight as I tend to hear.

Yes, if he only had a single win over Ray Robinson then I agree that he wouldn't deserve to be rated as highly either, but he defeated countless top ranked middleweights also. He was the only man to defeat Ray Robinson in the 1940's and he did have other close fights with Robinson as well, ones that could have arguably gone his way. He proved that he was not a Buster Douglas over his career by defeating some of the best fighters of the 1940's.

I'm not saying that he was anywhere near as great as Sugar Ray Robinson but it was no fluke that he defeated Robinson.

AKATheMack
03-12-2010, 06:44 PM
Yes, if he only had a single win over Ray Robinson then I agree that he wouldn't deserve to be rated as highly either, but he defeated countless top ranked middleweights also. He was the only man to defeat Ray Robinson in the 1940's and he did have other close fights with Robinson as well, ones that could have arguably gone his way. He proved that he was not a Buster Douglas over his career by defeating some of the best fighters of the 1940's.

I'm not saying that he was anywhere near as great as Sugar Ray Robinson but it was no fluke that he defeated Robinson.

I'm not trying to argue with you I accept you're more knowledgeable on this subject than myself. All I've seen are what I can find on youtube, ESPN Classic and random books and documentaries Ive picked up.At 160 how many times do you think LaMotta beats Roy Jones in a 6 match series? and How many times do you think Roy could defeat SRR at 160 in a 6 match series?

CarlosG815
03-12-2010, 08:42 PM
Roy Jones is too fast and too skilled for a guy like LaMotta. RJJ in his prime is phenomenal and on another level. LaMotta's chin will only get him so far, RJJ wins an easy UD and LaMotta eats jabs for 12 rounds.

HitmanHattonAY
03-12-2010, 11:32 PM
Roy Jones Jr !!

One more round
03-13-2010, 06:26 PM
I think Jake gives Roy some of the same problems he gave Ray. Roy was great and he would be all over Jake in the early rounds, popping and moving, just way too fast. But Jake would stalk and press, keep coming, keep coming, taking shots but still coming and eventually Roy would start getting hit a bit, and would be wearing down by fights end. I still think he takes a UD, but a fairly competitive one. He wouldn't be playing Ball in the morning before this fight for sure.

sonnyboyx2
03-13-2010, 07:48 PM
Like how he decked Bernard Hopkins, Jorge Castro and Fermin Chirino at middleweight?

like he decked James Toney, Virgil Hill, Reggie Johnson, Montell Griffin, Mike McCallum, Tony Thornton and dont forget Danny Nardico had LaMotta over

HitmanHattonAY
03-13-2010, 10:05 PM
Roy Jones Ko

The_Demon
03-13-2010, 10:07 PM
Roy Jones Ko

please tell me your joking

CarlosG815
03-14-2010, 01:23 AM
Roy Jones Ko

lol, Lamotta isn't Ricky Hatton, he's not getting KO'd by a guy like Roy Jones.

Obama
03-14-2010, 01:42 AM
Come now, as over rated as Jones is, he's still clearly on another level to Jake LaMotta. Shouldn't even be a debate.

Jim Jeffries
03-14-2010, 03:26 AM
I've been searching Jones' resume for a win the caliber of Sugar Ray Robinson.

Not much luck so far, can anyone help me out?

Obama
03-14-2010, 03:34 AM
I've been searching Jones' resume for a win the caliber of Sugar Ray Robinson.

Not much luck so far, can anyone help me out?

LaMotta outweighed Robinson by 17 lbs. Jones win over a man his own size in James Toney is more impressive.

But even if you don't want to believe that, 1 win doesn't make a career. Jones basically wen't 15 years undefeated, and won titles from Middleweight to Heavyweight. LaMotta couldn't even beat an elite uninjured Middleweight, much less anyone bigger than that at all.

Jim Jeffries
03-14-2010, 04:41 AM
LaMotta outweighed Robinson by 17 lbs. Jones win over a man his own size in James Toney is more impressive.

But even if you don't want to believe that, 1 win doesn't make a career. Jones basically wen't 15 years undefeated, and won titles from Middleweight to Heavyweight. LaMotta couldn't even beat an elite uninjured Middleweight, much less anyone bigger than that at all.

I take it math isn't your strong suit. It was 16 FYI but surely the greatest fighter that ever lived could overcome this deficiency against a fighter you seem to be portraying as a bum.

What about the 4 fights succeeding that one where the differences were considerably less? Were they complete blowouts? Including the SD? If so, why the need to fight the guy 6 times?

Wasn't Toney extremely weight drained for the Jones fight? Wasn't Toney's very next fight at LHW, a weight class higher? And didn't Toney lose that very next fight against a very inexperienced Griffin?




Pac fought a guy last night that outweighed him by double digits in the ring. By your logic, Clottey should've destroyed him.

MonsieurGeorges
03-14-2010, 11:42 PM
The people that diss Jake Lamotta are the people that watch boxing and don't know what they are seeing. Everyone forgets how adept Jake was on the inside, or they just never knew. To say he was just a strong guy who could only wear guys out with his chin and physical strength is ridiculous beyond belief. If you really watch his fights you can see that his boxing mind is constantly working, he just moves at a fast pace and tries to move into optimal range. He beat guys stronger than he was, and they were good in the way you had to be at that time period. We're talking about a fighter that was put through the meat grinder and came out the other end. No fighter who fought in the 1990s could even have possibly been through as much to get to the top.

You've got to take into account that the sport was very different then, and middleweight was a dangerous place to be fighting top guys.

icesplit
03-15-2010, 08:07 AM
I liked raging bull.:haha:

wmute
03-15-2010, 08:16 AM
Roy. I am not going to say it's not even close, because it would not be quite true, but I would not think there should be much debate on this one.

oaklandstephen
03-25-2010, 05:14 AM
rjjr ..................

EzzardFan
03-25-2010, 05:58 AM
RJJnr's achievements were a product of the time in which he fought. There were less fighters fighting less fights less frequently against a weaker class of fewer opponents in an alphabet soup of weight divisions and titles.

If we transported prime Lamotta plus a decent referee able to distinguish between in fighting and clinching into RJJnr's time then Lamotta would probably clear out 3 weight divisions with ease. If we transported RJJnr back to the 50s then he might make it as a decent club fighter.

One more round
03-25-2010, 06:35 AM
RJJnr's achievements were a product of the time in which he fought. There were less fighters fighting less fights less frequently against a weaker class of fewer opponents in an alphabet soup of weight divisions and titles.

If we transported prime Lamotta plus a decent referee able to distinguish between in fighting and clinching into RJJnr's time then Lamotta would probably clear out 3 weight divisions with ease. If we transported RJJnr back to the 50s then he might make it as a decent club fighter.

:lol1: :lol1: Roy Jones would be nothing but among the very best in any era. For you to say he would be a club fighter in the 50's is just retarded.

EzzardFan
03-25-2010, 06:54 AM
:lol1: :lol1: Roy Jones would be nothing but among the very best in any era. For you to say he would be a club fighter in the 50's is just retarded.

Try reading this:

http://www.amazon.com/Arc-Boxing-Decline-Sweet-Science/dp/0786438495/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269513857&sr=8-1

Opinions from: Emmanuel Steward, Freddy Roach, Teddy Atlas, Hank Kaplan, Chuck Hasson, Sal Rappa, Kevin Smith, Dan Cuoco, and Carlos Ortiz.